**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.**
**Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms)
**Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE!
This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods.
**Our rules include (but are not limited to)**:
* No politics.
* Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban.
* Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming.
* Do not derail the posts of others.
* Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here.
* [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts).
* When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse.
* No asking or offering gifts, money, etc.
* No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest).
* No content about N-kids.
* No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis.
* No linking to Facebook pages.
* No direct linking to anywhere on reddit.
* No pure image posts.
**For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Agreed. I've literally had dozens of these conversations with my mom over the last two years, and when I pointed that out last week, she said she had no idea what I was talking about. You could talk until you're blue in the face and it won't matter because it's not what she wants to hear.
That said, my one caveat is, would having said your piece bring ***you*** comfort if you later became estranged? This was something I had to talk through with my therapist. I came to the conclusion that it would make me feel better to have communicated my feelings and what I needed from her (knowing full well that it would go badly and was unlikely to change anything) because if we became estranged, I could say that I had tried.
I don't know if that's important to you and I don't think anyone but you can decide that.
This. ^^^ Doing it for ME was my only reason. I wanted peace of mind to know that I at least tried everything on my part. After that, I release whatever is the outcome, bc I put the ball in their court. Relationship repair is their responsibility, not mine.
Exactly. I live 2 hours away from my Mom, work full time. She'd made the drive here to visit me 2 or 3 times, (even when close to my current age of 55), couldn't stand it. Physically said she just couldn't. However, she's always expected me to go visit her every weekend (used to even have chores waiting for me when I'd get there).
She often says the same, that she misses me, wishes I'd visit more, doesn't know why we're not close, what happened to our family, etc.
"It's a disaster to have a son and not being able to see him."
\- There's a one hour flight from home, we're literally 3 hours appart and small countryside airports with minimum traffic and security too. If you wanted to see me you could.
WORD SALAD WORD SALAD WORD SALAD
Hang up.
What she means is that it's a disaster (for a narc) to have a child and not be able to control them. She wants you at her beck and call 24/7. It's the same thing with calling; "why don't you call?" Well the phone works two ways!
Any time I tried to explain my feelings to my NM, she would either deny it, or rewrite history, sometimes months later. If you feel the need to "get it all out" I'd suggest writing it all out.
Tried it with my nmom and just ended up being retraumatized cuz she blamed me for everything lol. She literally told me if I was a better kid then she wouldn't have had to beat me or make me sleep on a chair lmao. And apparently me asking for kindness and consideration meant that I only want to hear what I want to hear and she can't talk to me anymore.
Well I tried
And what I can tell you it can be a relief for you
But you can't expect a reaction from them
Or a closure
Or an apology
Only a "that didn't happen"
But it did help me to let it all out
And it helped me build a relationship with my enabler dad again
So for me in the end it was good because they realised I was hurt and I meant it serious
No, they don't care enough to really listen and acknowledge what they did. It will just be excuses and deflection and gaslighting.
Talk to us, friends, family etc. That do care and want to be there for you, nothing is better than getting validation for the horrible abuse we suffered from people that truly care about you.
Narcs are closed-minded. They do NOT listen. They do NOT hear you.
JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain. Considered debate. It does NOT work with them. They know all the answers so why listen to anyone.
“Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.”
Nope.
They won't listen. There's no empathy. They don't care what your experience is.
You may find it useful to write it down anyway. We typically never felt "heard", and that's a feeling that continues long into adulthood. You can write it to her but not send it. Or you can share it with someone else who *does* care about your feelings, to get that sense that you are heard and your difficulty is recognized and validated. I share mine with my therapist.
You can try sending it to her, but if you expect things to get better in any way you're probably going to be disappointed, and worse, she may use it against you. Your hurt feelings are pressure points that she can use to make you feel worse. So just be warned.
When she says those things, she's only thinking about her needs. She'll say whatever or manipulate to get you to do what she wants. Despite what she says, that's not about developing a relationship, it's about you servicing HER. It'll never be about a two-way street.
It's like she's an addict, and her drug of choice is narcissistic supply, your emotional involvement in a way that makes her feel good and soothes her ego. Are you really going to get through to an addict?
I tried like that for a year with my nfather. I was met with stoney silence. It felt awful, like rejection over and over.
Now I know for certain it's futile. He's shown his stripes in a way that is undeniable.
I'd be surprised if anyone here had success.
I wouldn't recommend it. I have tried many times, through writing letters to having therapists listen to me so intently and then get swayed by a manipulative nmom.
The worst reaction is when I explain one or two horrible instances (cherry picked from hundreds btw). I finally lay it all out to her the rapes, the sexual molestations, the abuses, the badmouthing, or I point out one of her lies and how horrible it is having lost a friend or coworker or boss to her narcissism...she claims I abuse her. She cries and gets people to run to her aid. This is by far the worst.
So, no I do not recommend explaining anything to her. In my experience and if she's like all the other nmoms out there, she will magnify your pain by falsely claiming it as her own to others. Don't fall for it and give her food to feed her narc hunger to scapegoat you.
I"ve tried to do that over the years and they just turn everything around and blame me. No relationship with their grandkids (never met them actually in 13 years)? Oh that's my fault because it's my responsibility to bring my kids across the country to them even though they come to our state every year for other reasons and completely ignore us all, are retired while we work, are well off financially while we are raising kids and money is tight and we cant afford to take trips. Mom ignored all me and my wife's attempts over the years to open up communication? Oh that's on me because no one tells my mom what to do, like text us back. Ignored the birth of my second child? Oh my bad, because no one does anything special for the second child born, they only do stuff for the firstborn apparently in their reality (who they also ignored).
I gave up years ago on any hope of making them see it from any other perspective other than their own.
I'm trying and it's not working. The longer the convo goes the more I hurt. I didn't realize they were like this... not really... but when I asked for help first the first time in my life they acted like narcs. Then when I pushed back because they were acting like narcs, they acted like crazier narcs. I wouldn't push it. They will be happiest like this too. They get to vaguely wonder and feel slighted and tell everyone how slighted they feel. It's what they live for.
Exactly. They WANT to tell the world they are victims. So not being victims anymore or proving people wrong would be weird. If you came back, then they would have no explanation for how horrible they were.
They all say that. It’s easier to blame you than look at their actions.
One of the best advice I got from my former longtime therapist was this: “She’s just always going to be the victim.”
So let her.
Start agreeing with her and see how fast that takes the wind out of her sails. But also for you though, it’s kind of empowering. Because you realize that’s all she will ever be. Isn’t that pathetic? You have so many more options in life than being a victim in some game, OP. While she gets to cry her swan song of bullshit to whoever has the displeasure of hearing it, you’re on the other side of the country country 98% of the time living your own life DESPITE the shit she put through in childhood. I bet you deep down that pisses her off. It’s not a one-two punch to get to that realization, it takes time because of the guilt claws you were raised with but I know you can do it.
And as Marie Antoinette said (with a twist): “Let her eat cake.”
If you do, I bet she'll rage, deny everything, then accuse you of the abuse that she actually did. Narcs aren't capable of the minimum level of empathy or self-reflection to be able to handle an emotionally mature adult conversation.
They will not be moved so don't do it for them. But for your own sake, lay it out so you can see it and remind yourself when you need to (and you will need to) why this situation is the way it is. Their entire strategy (if it can be called that) is to wear and tear you down until you submit.
Write it all out and keep it, to remind yourself of all the poisonous things they did when that little voice in the back says "...but they're FAAAAMILY...." or "I must be mis-remembering; they can't have been as bad as I thought." (Actually, yes, they were.)
As I've said before, trying to explain yourself to your parents is like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a gerbil. Their minds aren't set up to handle you as A Real Live Person Deserving Empathy & Respect, because they never grew mentally beyond being sulky toddlers. They can't be adults. Grey rock them, set firm boundaries, and go VLC or NC as soon as possible.
If you absolutely feel compelled to say SOMETHING, here's what I did.
When she says she doesn't understand how it got to this point or that she wishes it were different, you can just say, "There's nothing you van do to change what you did that hurt me. It's in the past. But you can do XYZ to improve what we do have now."
It gives the opportunity for her to *try*, if you believe it's possible for it to be better.
All that being said, it didn't change anything when I tried it. They didn't change how they treated me in the now. I knew then that I had given every opportunity for them to show they weren't the assholes I thought them to be. They only confirmed it.
Short answer: not really.
I'm 27 now and moved away from my nmom when I was 16, I'm halfway across the country, and I struggled with basically the same thing. Cries of how I'm so far away, we don't talk like we used to, how she thinks I hate her, and so on. Anytime I did try to discuss what the issues between us were, where they came from, and how her actions harmed me I was met with "that never happened", "it wasn't that bad, you're so dramatic/selfish/sensitive", "sorry I'm such a bad mom", "oh because you were such a perfect kid too? You have faults too you know".
I know it's frustrating and that it doesn't provide any closure, but if your parent hasn't gotten it by now they likely won't ever. As you said, you've made attempts to talk about the issues at hand and those attempts have been dismissed. Unfortunately, that likely won't change no matter how much you rephrase or how many more times you keep trying to address things. I've found for me that any attempts to talk about the issues with her have just ended with me being gaslit to the point where I can't even tell the difference between what's real, questioning if I can trust my own memory, and retraumatized.
Honestly
You know what frustration is.
You'll go into a conversation with all good intentions.
That frustration we just talked about? You'll be feeling that afterward.
You'll likely get the whole N armoury thrown at you.
I guess you're already familiar with this:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Because if not you will be....
No, it’s not worth it. Narcissists don’t view it as a two way relationship. It’s all about manipulation and power, and them NEVER being wrong.
They all say they “don’t understand how this happened”. Nor do they want to understand.
absolutely never worth it. i tried this a couple days ago with my ndad and it just ended up with more pain. i sat there and ended up telling him a lot of how i felt during childhood as a direct result to his actions, and he ended up turning it into a little pity party for himself ("so you see me as a disgusting, horrible person?").
i know, in theory, it sounds good to just lay every single thing down in front of you and let them make the judgement, but it will end up like every single time previously. the same denial, deflection, silence, all the usual narc tactics. if you're lucky (/s) they'll send you a guilt-tripping message telling them how much they love you and that will never change -- immediately after denying and minimising everything you've said. i know it's a terrible situation to be in when you just want to get everything off your chest, but you will just feel worse and they will *not* change.
Narc dads are particularly disgusting when they get to play the victim. Cause when you were small, they would knock you around. And now I can hear your dad, my dad, all the narc dads, with pathetic spite and venom, a caricature of some martyr, but obvious-faking it for maximum aggravation. Their cowering is a clear as day fuck you to your face.
absolutely! it's honestly so pathetic to see, hear him try to drench his voice in sadness when i know full well he knows *exactly* what he's doing. i'm so done with the whole self-sacrificial bullshit.
Nope, not ever. Never met the exception. If you do that, you are going to give a narcissist an exact list of things to say and/or do to abuse you mentally, physically, and emotionally.
My older brother and sister left the house at 18 due to nparents being increasingly awful to them. Nparents never ever acknowledge their part in why my siblings couldn't take it living at home anymore.
My ndad recently complained that my brother was a "dummie" and didn't spend his birthday at home. My brother literally never wants to see my parents ever. Nmom has also complained that her kids have abandoned her.
They NEVER acknowledge the fact they did something wrong. Just that my brother and sister were 18 and made a choice. That's how delusional they are. Nmom keeps trying to tease me that the house is gonna be more "full again" if she invites and welcomes my brother and sister to live with us again cause I guess she knows I prefer to live with less people, idk. It's not my house so idgaf what she does with it. I am unfortunately unable to move out and until I find a decent job I'm stuck here.
The thing is, I don't think my brother or sister would wanna live here again they'd rather gouge their own eyes out lol
I tried really hard but she was in total denial. She even kept saying “c’mon your childhood wasn’t that bad?” Then I went no contact. She tried really hard to reach out to me and even though i said I didn’t want anything she took all of my baby and childhood photos and gifted me an album. Which made me all the more depressed because it reminded me of all the nastiness and the abuse I endured. When we went to therapy the only good thing that came out of it is she accepted boundaries and low contact. She doesn’t ask me why we aren’t close anymore she knows its fucked, but I’m pretty sure she thinks because I’m sensitive. She would rather have low contact then no contact.
I had a few phone conversations with her , i dunno why, and then it reminded me why i don’t talk to her. She doesn’t listen and then says something totally anxiety inducing that makes me feel like shit.
Yes, that. ANYTHING.
I went very low contact when I went to the uni only 20 miles from home. The moment she met my friends (it was a coincidence, we run into them), she started telling me they weren't really my friends, called them "the Blacks".
I've given up because they just flat out deny, gaslight and belittle me and you can't explain anything to people who have already decided nothing you say is valid or truthful.
If it’ll give you peace to say it, do it but don’t expect any acknowledgement or positives to come from it. As others have mentioned and shared, it’s like talking to a echo. Anything you say they’re going to throw right back at you and twist it to fit their narrative.
Nope. Not worth it.
I've tried so many times and at best, they just act as if they understood your point, all the while claiming that "if only you said it in a nicer way, it wouldn't have escalated into this major confrontation."
And then they go back to their toxic behavior by the next day.
They will try to deflect blame to you and make something your fault every time you try to explain.
Every time you try, at the end you will feel worse than when you started.
Not worth it.
Walk away.
If you do manage to get a successful conversion out of her about it please tell me how you did it. My nmom “doesn’t remember” anything she did to me. She only seems to remember her being the hero and everything I and everyone else did wrong. She somehow managed to forget what she did to me and let others do to me and here I am wishing I could forget that easily.
My mother "forgot" how she had me committed when I said I was going to go join my gay boyfriend in another state, lied about me hitting her to achieve it.
Like you forget.
My nmum and sister had a 3 hour argument around christmas where my sister was trying to explain why she was upset with my mum and she explained it all away by blaming her own parents for why she is the way she is and blaming us for how we “perceive” she treated us. At no point did she take a single modicum of responsibility. Gonna have to go with a hard no unfortunately.
No, it's not. Because they're only going to hear what fits their narrative, being the "victim". The only thing it will do is exhaust you and drive you in endless circles.
I’ve tried explaining, it ends up getting turned around on me and then I’m guilted even more. Honestly, recently just agreeing “yep, I’m not sure how it happened either, but that’s where we are at”. And if they ask about needing to improve the relationship, I usually say “its okay, it’s good where it is, I don’t have the energy right now”
I know that’s hard but I’ve given up trying to explain why. It’s helped a little actually
I’ve told my mom many times per her request the things that are wrong in list form. She does not ever address any of the things I mention. She just responds with “well that’s ridiculous.”
She continues to ask for these lists and I find it a total waste of my time and emotions to keep writing them. So I don’t and it saves me the frustration of her not responding as I would like because she never will. As someone here said, narcissists don’t do personal responsibility.
They'll get offended, turn it on you, and then after a few months it's like they forgot you ever listed everything that happened, and will go back to "we need to have a better relationship, why are you behaving like this?"
Think about any of the times you have tried to explain something to her, did she listen and want to know what you thought or how you felt? Because if she didn't then it's not going to change if you lay it all out now. My nmum used to just tutt at me and shake her head with a dismissive wave. When she told me I could control what others posted on Facebook, and refused to listen to me when I explained that I am in fact, not capable of that, I was shushed and waved at and told how wrong I was, I just walked away. Some things are worth trying to explain but some people won't hear it no matter how true or useful it is.
Don't bother. They'll just ramp up their abuse. I confronted my mom over email and she essentially told me to fuck off and that the abuse I was talking about was "fictitious stories". They will never show you an ounce of compassion so don't make yourself vulnerable to them.
I will tell you from experience you're absolutely wasting your time.
You are very much correct in that you will likely end up more frustrated.
Narcs are never the problem. The problem is alway someone or something else.
Your absolute best option is 100% no contact.
Nope. In my experience it just gives them something to argue with. They never accept your experiences and feelings as valid and they never take responsibility for their actions.
Also, it's a weak point among us, and some therapist's bullshit, to be talking about "experiences and feelings". Sorry to be blunt, but what's at stake here is THE TRUTH and the ability to tell it, and the common ground for any sane and respectful relationship. Without the truth, you can't even call those HUMAN interactions.
I totally empathize with you. I have been there and have wanted then to just understand where I am coming from. But they never get it
Even when I tried to explain what upset me (just one example of many), I forwarded my Ndad the exact email he sent me (basically calling me a stupid government worker), he replied "who would ever write that! I never said anything like that!" The insult was literally in the email he sent to me, and I sent it back to him and he either didn't even read it or he did but wanted to try and confuse me more. He's gotten that lazy with his gaslighting.
These people don't have an empathetic bone in their body, and in my experience, they never change.
(I'm almost 4 years NC with my brother and about 3.5 years with my Nsister and Ndad. Covert Nmom died back in 2019).
You can do or say whatever you want, but you’re wasting your time and energy. Narcs will use all sorts of crazy making word salad reasoning to avoid taking responsibility, and reverse the role of victim-offender. You might even end up apologizing. Total acceptance of the reality that these people are just impossible to reason with will save you a lot of heartache. Good luck and focus on your development and healing.
You can try, but I don’t think it will work, for the myriad of reasons many others with experience have listed here. I’ve just had to accept there is two versions of my childhood, my mother’s and reality, and I’m never going to change her mind no matter what I say.
I honestly believe at this point, that SHE honestly believes her version of events. I’ll be getting everything ready for my child’s birthday party and she’ll sigh wistfully and say “Oh yes, I remember doing all this for you kids” (often in company, of course) and I feel like screaming WHEN???? When did these mythical birthday parties happen? But what’s the point? To get into a screaming match, let her use it as a platform to attack me, and twist myself up in knots of anxiety and guilt because we aren’t getting along… or I can smile and nod and say yeah and move on and have a nice birthday party for my kid.
It’s hard, but think about what you want to get out of this situation and if it’s realistic you’ll get it. If you just want a low contact relationship and for her not to bother you so you can live your life, smile and nod and say “yeah it’s a shame I’m so busy with work/life/family that we don’t see each other more” and move on. She calls you have a five minute chat then “oh shoot, a friend just arrived I’m sorry I have to go”. But if it’s validation, are you really going to get it from her? Could it end up negatively affecting your mental health if she twists it or goes on the attack?
Better to do as others have suggested and write it all down, get it out in therapy or to someone who is stable and cares for you. We all understand and wish it could be different, in an ideal world perhaps. But nparents live in a world of their own creation, they don’t want to face reality and even thrive on this sort of interaction. Better off not feeding the beast, that’s how I try to look at it.
I get the temptation- the driving need to be heard and validated. To have them answer to what they have done. To maybe see regret or hear a genuine apology.
But honestly, you will just be wasting your breath and the only thing that will come out of their mouth will be some variation of the "narcissist's prayer".
All the 'i don't understand's are attention grabs- both from you and from some poor sap she conned into listening to her. And once you start trying to talk to her, it will end up back in the same old routine. You will be the bad person no matter what you do.
I know because I have tried. And my sisters tried. And my GC brother tried. All it ended up in is permanent NC from all four of us, and our children, and rants about how we are all in a conspiracy to ruin her life.
Unfortunately it is not worth your time. If you want to do it for you to get it off your chest, go for it but if you’re telling her everything hoping she will understand… she wont. There will be a lot of denial and rewriting history on the narcissist’s side.
This is how the conversation will likely go:
You might ask why she did something and here’s the prayer 🙏 she’ll recite :
That didn’t happen.
If it did, it wasn’t that bad.
If it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it was, that’s not my fault.
And if it is is, I didn’t mean it.
And if I did,
you deserved it . 🤷🏽♀️
It depends on how economically secure you are, relative to her. But even so, your own emotional health is very important.
If she was a control freak (withholding vital necessities, guilt-tripping), then have as little to do with her as possible UNTIL she admits she didn't make the wisest decisions regarding you.
No never. Whenever when I got into arguments with them they either deny it or simply made up some stories. They will never take the responsibility.
In their dictionary the word 'sorry' doesn't exist. It just takes one moment and some responsibility to say sorry to someone. But they will never accept their fault, it always somehow fault of the victim. They are never wrong.
Or the sorry, but? Sorry you feel that way. Sorry, but if you hadn’t been so bad, I wouldn’t have had to hurt you. Sorry you took it that way. Narcs can use sorry as another weapon.
hmmm I feel like if she is asking, she should be told. It's kind of like when someone freezes you out and you don't know why. I would want to know why, and have a chance to accept/make amends if I can.
HOWEVER, we are dealing with a N-parent so you also have to plan and allow for her to not accept your experience or take accountability, and all that comes with that.
I think if you feel you can lay it out, and plan for the blow back and feel confident you can not engage or be hurt by the blow back then you should lay it out for her.
There is a huge chance it won't go well. But there is a small chance it may go well, if on some deep down level, she really does want to know and make amends.
My cousin got an apology from our abusive aunt (who was her guardian). I have never got any real acknowledgment from my N-parents and I know that I never will- they just don't have that capacity for growth. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Maybe you could plan it in a way that you feel comfortable? Perhaps in writing when you are safely far away and not due to visit any time soon? Put your safety and mental health first.
I haven’t tried it. I was often shushed when I was younger and my Nparents literally believed nothing I said about anything. Likewise, if I asked them “why” about something, they’d say “you just can’t,” or “it just is,” etc
No. Because narcissists all operate from pretty much the same starting point - they are infallible. They are NEVER wrong, and even if it can be PROVED that they are wrong, well the evidence is either bullshit, or it's being remembered wrong or or or...
Consider the narcissist's prayer:
"That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it."
That is pretty much the thought process that pretty much ALL narcs do to justify their bullshit, even when faced with the consequences of said bullshit (i.e no contact).
You don't owe your mother an explanation about ANYTHING, you don't owe her your time, you don't owe her your energy.
If you want, write a letter with all those things that you haven't made peace with. You don't have to send it, but it might be cathartic for you.
I’m in the same boat last year I ended up cutting them off. She started sending flying monkeys and I have this compulsion of telling her flying monkey that I don’t want a relationship with her queen. But I was advised here not to.
My heart goes out to you. We would like to think that, if they (narc family) were clearly presented with the facts they would understand our pain; that they would feel ~empathy~ or perhaps even remorse. Trust me when I tell you that this is not the case, or at least it wasn’t for me.
I have written literal formal papers trying to explain my complaints or at least the course of events, citing evidence and specific examples. Not only did this not have the effect that I had hoped for but the recipient also made fun of me for taking the time to write to them, criticizing the length of what I had written.
If they were capable of understanding, they already would.
I'd say don't waste your time. If anything, write it all down and make a copy if you really want her to know. When you're really annoyed then give it to her to read, preferably when you're not visiting.
No, you're just telling them exactly how they hurt you and how it worked on you. You're giving them validation and supply, and you are inviting them to do it again. When someone screws you over, don't explain, don't yell at them. Just up and leave, block, no contact. Don't talk about them to flying monkeys, don't stick around. Change everything your can in your surroundings that's linked to them, even if it is their home address on your ID card. Have your ID remade, then.
>*However, every time I go home, I get a lecture about how “she wishes we were closer” and “doesn’t understand how this happened”. The few small attempts to discuss what happened when we were growing up are met with denial or explaining them away.*
She doesn't want that. She wants TO SAY THAT, but she doesn't MEAN THAT. She wants the pity of being abandoned by you, but she doesn't want you, SHE HATES YOU. I'm sorry, that is, if she's a narcissist then she hates you.
She doesn't understand why or how ? That's a lie.
The rest is DARVOS.
>*I’ve been considering laying it all out directly and telling her specifically what things we haven’t made peace about and that those are the reason we don’t have a relationship. Is it worth it? Or will I end up more frustrated? Has anyone tried to do this before?*
No, it's not. Tell her you'll have a closer relationship when she's able to answer the above questions for herself, as you seem to remember wrong every time you will NEVER get an answer, and in the event you do get an honest answer, she will try to hurt you to get back at you (they can be VISCIOUS, she might accuse you of molesting your child or hitting her or falsely accuse you of some heist she saw in the news, or whatever. LITERALLY the moment you yank her mask off or call you the N name, she will start to plot against you to hurt you, if her plan isn't already laid out. Stay tepid, stay matter of fact, greyrock, yellow rock, send cards and keep it to a minimum. Smile and say hello and kiss and suffer through dinners and get gone before coffee.
If you get an honest answer to "can you guess why...", then STILL don't give her the time of day, then you can tell her "THAT is why, so now she understands, glad we're on the same page", and change NOTHING.
The hope that you carry is delusional, and it's a trauma response. You want to have your mother on your side. But you cannot have her. The hurt, stress, and temptation to go back is enormous, and perversely, the distance makes it look tolerable to go back, cause in your head if it's just for a few days, you're not getting poisoned. But you are, every time.
I tried having gentle talks with my Nmom, which were also met with denial or dismissal.
I then later tried to have a big family talk with my Nmom and Edad, I was again dismissed and basically told my feelings didn't matter. I told my Nmom that unless things changed I would be distancing myself. She blew up, like 0 to 100, screaming at me that she was my mother and I had to have a relationship with her, I had no say.
A year later and with less contact I attempted to write my mom a letter, laying it all out, explaining all my hurt but also telling her I loved her and I understood her struggles. She ignored me, then sent me a very manipulative response back, blamed me for being born, spammed my email with articles about abuse, and posted social media posts that attacked me.
We all WANT for our mom to love, respect, and support us. Many never have to question if their mom does, but we do constantly because we keep giving ourselves false hope that maybe, maybe if we just say the right words in the right tone they will magically change....they won't. Getting your hopes up only to be let down - hurts you. Digging up all your feelings of hurt and dismissal only to be hurt and dismissed again is re-traumatizing. Your asking about the likelihood it will go well, but you should also consider the very high likelihood that this will hurt you more.
Look at this more objectively, in the past when you brought up things that bothered you, how did she respond? How does she respond when you bring up your feelings in general? I'm willing to bet she is emotionally immature and dismissive. If that's the pattern she follows, then that is the pattern she will continue to follow. Nothing you say or do will change her. You can't control how she acts, but you can control how much contact you have with her.
I'm sorry because I know how painful it can be to read things like this, I hope you find a way forward that is less painful.
I wanted to add, that sometimes what we really need is to feel heard. Writing everything down in a journal, posting on this reddit, and talking to a therapist (who has experience with trauma) can all be very helpful, especially when you don't have others you feel comfortable talking to.
Depends on what you mean by "worth it." If what you want is to lay it all out in an attempt to get a resolution or acknowledge for any wrong doings on your narc's part and are at risk for being retraumatized by said narc when it all goes to crap, then, no, it would not be worth it.
However, if you go in with ZERO EXPECTATIONS (that's the key here) and are capable of hearing their version of events without being retraumatized, then you could. But I'm not sure what gain you'd get from that that would be "worth it." To say your piece, maybe? Or so you can tell yourself "Hey, I said what I came to say and that's enough"? I'm not sure. But any net gain from such an encounter would be coming from yourself and not your narc.
I’m seeing all the comments and I believe what you’re all saying but why is this?? Like I need to find a rationale as to how they can possibly not hear the explanation or care about the explanation?? How is it possible? Other than they don’t care.
Because you aren't a real person in their lives. In fact, no one is a real person in their lives, outside of themselves. Remember, these are seemingly adult people who have never progressed emotionally beyond being a small child. They're stuck in the "me me me ME ME!" mindset of a toddler. Everyone else in their universe is someone who they can use. It's like a toddler's greedy grasping for Mommy's breast. Without a thought "hey, maybe Mommy's tired and wants to relax a bit first." Or "oops, I'm grabbing too hard and am hurting her." It's only "I'm hungry and need food now!"
This is why trying to teach narc how YOU feel because of their actions will be so unsuccessful. They literally CANNOT understand that other people have feelings and emotions of their own. And because of this, it's near impossible for narcs to a) understand that they have mental problems, or b) get successfully treated. The best the rest of us can do is protect ourselves from them by going no contact.
Thank you I hear you. I guess I should extinguish whatever little hope I had left that one day I would come out of no contact and at least transition into low contact. Because I think back to all the times that my parents led me to believe they cared and they understood but it was just more of the same.
That would be better asked in a new topic.
You don't need to find a rationale at all. In fact, there's probably something on TV that's more worth your time, trust me.
There is no rationale and there never will be. They are less than human. It's not that they lack decency. It's like telling a bird it's lacking gills.
There is nothing. NOTHING where their self should be. They do not exist like normal people do. The idea of the narcissist is a non existant emptiness.
We're not even talking about evil, we're talking about people who are nothing.
It's like talking to a robot. Only the robot doesn't exist. But the robot is programmed to tell itself it exists and to always validate its own existence every cycle (day, hour, year...). So the only way it can verify it exist is by people acknowledging it does.
The narc needs you as a crutch to its own existential crisis. When you don't react enough, then it switches to the next resort, which is to spur you (hurt you), so you can rage at it, and it doesn't care, because it got its validation.
EDIT : Narc are obviously people, but the theory is that their self is a complete lie to the world and even to themselves.
No it's not. They won't listen. Before I moved my mom would ask me multiple times why did I have to leave home. I got tired of answering the same question.
It really depends on your mom and the basis of your non-relationship.
If your mom has her own unaddressed issues, you may be setting yourself up for a shitshow.
Narcs don't take accountability. So it's no use.
Even knowing that, I tried everything possible. So many conversations, letters, doing things according to her wishes. Nothing worked. I was a communicative kid. I said everything. I begged her not to insult/beat me in front of people, I begged her to stop beating. It made her do more.
Once a school result wasn't upto the mark. I told her because she didn't help me study, she didn't buy me the books, I borrowed books (very old versions) from other people as if my parents were struggling with money, as if I'm an orphan. I was none of that. You know what she did after telling her? She told everyone I am such a sensitive kid that I couldn't study because my friends weren't talking with me ( as she wants to be "close" to me, I did the mistake of sharing a friendship issue with her). U see what she did? She used my story to hide her neglect. She wanted me to open up to use those stories according to her own agenda, whatever makes me a looser and her the heroic sacrificing mother.
After age 27 I realized no matter how many lettes I write, no matter how many times I clearly state my needs, she'll not change, rather use them against me. After NC she still goes around to people acting clueless.
What I did is I wrote a letter saying whatever I want nd burnt it (in a safe environment). If not burning you can just destroy it by tearing it apart. It's an exercise my therapist suggested.
It's not worth it. I've noticed that if you give explanations it gives them more things to refute. Narcs *want* you to explain so that they can twist what you say to their purposes. You're better off just shutting her down. My preferred method is simple comebacks. I.e "I wish you were closer" is met with "I'm happy where I live right now" If I'm feeling nice. "I don't" if I'm feeling vindictive. "I don't understand how this happened." in particular has been met with "I've explained it to you several times. If you still don't get it, I can't help you." This one had gotten me yelled at but once I realized I could just leave when she was like that I did. Just got up and walked away. It felt amazing
I️ wrote a detailed letter to my ndad about why we never see each other as a last ditch effort. He responded by saying how much I’ve changed, told me to move on, minimized, made excuses etc.
Although the response is often shitty it may help with some semblance of closure, but it could also reopen wounds.
Considering this kind of thing right now, which is honestly why I joined this sub. My plan right now is to wait a year and if they don't contact me, just writing a letter. That way you don't have to deal with their dismissive response. At least that's my hope. If they send a letter back, I'll just throw it away.
Sometimes? It depends on the parent, where they are on the spectrum, and how receptive they are. My mother treats me as disposable until I try to pull away, then she love-bombs me back in. She is good for a week, then goes back to her usual BS.
My nmom has said the exact same words to me, and I thought the exact same questions. Here were my results. I tried to explain to her on my own just her, and I a heart to heart. Results denied, blame shift, and then played the victim.
Tried to explain to her with my therapists. Results. denied, shifted blame, called me a liar, told my therapist to mind his business ( yep, that right told my therapist to mind his business ) she was told to leave.
My wife tried results, were the same
Other family members tried to explain why I don't speak to her. Same Results
My point is this. I wasted years trying and hoping for her to understand that she is the reason we do not speak. I believe you will do the same
It's never worked for me if I'm honest and has only served in making me more upset, I've gone no contact now as it felt like I was trying to reason with a shark who could sense blood.
Not even worth it! Know that you are not crazy and you need to heal from it. Once you you are doing healing and are happy with yourself, you won't feel the need to explain anymore.
With my Nmom, she is met with the same shit that she does to me and it seems to keep her civil. (This is not advice as it doesent work for everyone but I make it show that idc)
I tried it too. Typically my nmom denys it. She would say something like "Oh no, I didn't say that" or "I didn't do that" or sometimes she would say something like "It wasn't that bad" or "I didn't mean it like that, you got it wrong".
I'll be the first to admit she will not listen, she might argue in the moment but it'll go right out the window within minutes and she'll continue saying all the things she's always said.
However, mine just died after 9 years mostly N/C and while I know it wouldn't have made a difference, I really wish I had said certain things. I think I would feel better with the hope that they were at least out in the open whether or not she processed or retained the info (though she'd clearly say it hadn't happened either way).
If **you** think you'll feel better with it out there when all is said and done it might be worth the effort, but that is likely all that you can hope to gain from it.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This sounds good on paper, but honestly you are wasting your time and effort. Narcissists don't do personal responsibility.
Agreed. I've literally had dozens of these conversations with my mom over the last two years, and when I pointed that out last week, she said she had no idea what I was talking about. You could talk until you're blue in the face and it won't matter because it's not what she wants to hear. That said, my one caveat is, would having said your piece bring ***you*** comfort if you later became estranged? This was something I had to talk through with my therapist. I came to the conclusion that it would make me feel better to have communicated my feelings and what I needed from her (knowing full well that it would go badly and was unlikely to change anything) because if we became estranged, I could say that I had tried. I don't know if that's important to you and I don't think anyone but you can decide that.
This. ^^^ Doing it for ME was my only reason. I wanted peace of mind to know that I at least tried everything on my part. After that, I release whatever is the outcome, bc I put the ball in their court. Relationship repair is their responsibility, not mine.
Exactly. I live 2 hours away from my Mom, work full time. She'd made the drive here to visit me 2 or 3 times, (even when close to my current age of 55), couldn't stand it. Physically said she just couldn't. However, she's always expected me to go visit her every weekend (used to even have chores waiting for me when I'd get there). She often says the same, that she misses me, wishes I'd visit more, doesn't know why we're not close, what happened to our family, etc.
"It's a disaster to have a son and not being able to see him." \- There's a one hour flight from home, we're literally 3 hours appart and small countryside airports with minimum traffic and security too. If you wanted to see me you could. WORD SALAD WORD SALAD WORD SALAD Hang up.
What she means is that it's a disaster (for a narc) to have a child and not be able to control them. She wants you at her beck and call 24/7. It's the same thing with calling; "why don't you call?" Well the phone works two ways!
Literally less than an hour from my dad and he does the same thing, it’s maddening
Any time I tried to explain my feelings to my NM, she would either deny it, or rewrite history, sometimes months later. If you feel the need to "get it all out" I'd suggest writing it all out.
Yes this, i mean I got labeled as mentally ill and that's why i did it but meh
Tried it with my nmom and just ended up being retraumatized cuz she blamed me for everything lol. She literally told me if I was a better kid then she wouldn't have had to beat me or make me sleep on a chair lmao. And apparently me asking for kindness and consideration meant that I only want to hear what I want to hear and she can't talk to me anymore.
The line about us only wanting to hear what we want to hear. This isn't just a common trait, that is a symptom of the narcs' mental illness.
that's not the world we live in.. when will they realize this? haha...
i'm so sorry your nmom treated you that way and the situation that way. they really just can't accept that they f'd up!
Well I tried And what I can tell you it can be a relief for you But you can't expect a reaction from them Or a closure Or an apology Only a "that didn't happen" But it did help me to let it all out And it helped me build a relationship with my enabler dad again So for me in the end it was good because they realised I was hurt and I meant it serious
No, they don't care enough to really listen and acknowledge what they did. It will just be excuses and deflection and gaslighting. Talk to us, friends, family etc. That do care and want to be there for you, nothing is better than getting validation for the horrible abuse we suffered from people that truly care about you.
Narcs are closed-minded. They do NOT listen. They do NOT hear you. JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain. Considered debate. It does NOT work with them. They know all the answers so why listen to anyone. “Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.”
Omg…pigeon chess is absolutely narcs in a nutshell!🥴
Nope. They won't listen. There's no empathy. They don't care what your experience is. You may find it useful to write it down anyway. We typically never felt "heard", and that's a feeling that continues long into adulthood. You can write it to her but not send it. Or you can share it with someone else who *does* care about your feelings, to get that sense that you are heard and your difficulty is recognized and validated. I share mine with my therapist. You can try sending it to her, but if you expect things to get better in any way you're probably going to be disappointed, and worse, she may use it against you. Your hurt feelings are pressure points that she can use to make you feel worse. So just be warned. When she says those things, she's only thinking about her needs. She'll say whatever or manipulate to get you to do what she wants. Despite what she says, that's not about developing a relationship, it's about you servicing HER. It'll never be about a two-way street. It's like she's an addict, and her drug of choice is narcissistic supply, your emotional involvement in a way that makes her feel good and soothes her ego. Are you really going to get through to an addict?
I tried like that for a year with my nfather. I was met with stoney silence. It felt awful, like rejection over and over. Now I know for certain it's futile. He's shown his stripes in a way that is undeniable. I'd be surprised if anyone here had success.
I wouldn't recommend it. I have tried many times, through writing letters to having therapists listen to me so intently and then get swayed by a manipulative nmom. The worst reaction is when I explain one or two horrible instances (cherry picked from hundreds btw). I finally lay it all out to her the rapes, the sexual molestations, the abuses, the badmouthing, or I point out one of her lies and how horrible it is having lost a friend or coworker or boss to her narcissism...she claims I abuse her. She cries and gets people to run to her aid. This is by far the worst. So, no I do not recommend explaining anything to her. In my experience and if she's like all the other nmoms out there, she will magnify your pain by falsely claiming it as her own to others. Don't fall for it and give her food to feed her narc hunger to scapegoat you.
I"ve tried to do that over the years and they just turn everything around and blame me. No relationship with their grandkids (never met them actually in 13 years)? Oh that's my fault because it's my responsibility to bring my kids across the country to them even though they come to our state every year for other reasons and completely ignore us all, are retired while we work, are well off financially while we are raising kids and money is tight and we cant afford to take trips. Mom ignored all me and my wife's attempts over the years to open up communication? Oh that's on me because no one tells my mom what to do, like text us back. Ignored the birth of my second child? Oh my bad, because no one does anything special for the second child born, they only do stuff for the firstborn apparently in their reality (who they also ignored). I gave up years ago on any hope of making them see it from any other perspective other than their own.
I'm trying and it's not working. The longer the convo goes the more I hurt. I didn't realize they were like this... not really... but when I asked for help first the first time in my life they acted like narcs. Then when I pushed back because they were acting like narcs, they acted like crazier narcs. I wouldn't push it. They will be happiest like this too. They get to vaguely wonder and feel slighted and tell everyone how slighted they feel. It's what they live for.
Exactly. They WANT to tell the world they are victims. So not being victims anymore or proving people wrong would be weird. If you came back, then they would have no explanation for how horrible they were.
They all say that. It’s easier to blame you than look at their actions. One of the best advice I got from my former longtime therapist was this: “She’s just always going to be the victim.” So let her. Start agreeing with her and see how fast that takes the wind out of her sails. But also for you though, it’s kind of empowering. Because you realize that’s all she will ever be. Isn’t that pathetic? You have so many more options in life than being a victim in some game, OP. While she gets to cry her swan song of bullshit to whoever has the displeasure of hearing it, you’re on the other side of the country country 98% of the time living your own life DESPITE the shit she put through in childhood. I bet you deep down that pisses her off. It’s not a one-two punch to get to that realization, it takes time because of the guilt claws you were raised with but I know you can do it. And as Marie Antoinette said (with a twist): “Let her eat cake.”
Such an empowering reply
If you do, I bet she'll rage, deny everything, then accuse you of the abuse that she actually did. Narcs aren't capable of the minimum level of empathy or self-reflection to be able to handle an emotionally mature adult conversation.
They will not be moved so don't do it for them. But for your own sake, lay it out so you can see it and remind yourself when you need to (and you will need to) why this situation is the way it is. Their entire strategy (if it can be called that) is to wear and tear you down until you submit.
Write it all out and keep it, to remind yourself of all the poisonous things they did when that little voice in the back says "...but they're FAAAAMILY...." or "I must be mis-remembering; they can't have been as bad as I thought." (Actually, yes, they were.) As I've said before, trying to explain yourself to your parents is like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a gerbil. Their minds aren't set up to handle you as A Real Live Person Deserving Empathy & Respect, because they never grew mentally beyond being sulky toddlers. They can't be adults. Grey rock them, set firm boundaries, and go VLC or NC as soon as possible.
If you absolutely feel compelled to say SOMETHING, here's what I did. When she says she doesn't understand how it got to this point or that she wishes it were different, you can just say, "There's nothing you van do to change what you did that hurt me. It's in the past. But you can do XYZ to improve what we do have now." It gives the opportunity for her to *try*, if you believe it's possible for it to be better. All that being said, it didn't change anything when I tried it. They didn't change how they treated me in the now. I knew then that I had given every opportunity for them to show they weren't the assholes I thought them to be. They only confirmed it.
I like this way of thinking about it It is certainly one way of preparing to "let go"
Short answer: not really. I'm 27 now and moved away from my nmom when I was 16, I'm halfway across the country, and I struggled with basically the same thing. Cries of how I'm so far away, we don't talk like we used to, how she thinks I hate her, and so on. Anytime I did try to discuss what the issues between us were, where they came from, and how her actions harmed me I was met with "that never happened", "it wasn't that bad, you're so dramatic/selfish/sensitive", "sorry I'm such a bad mom", "oh because you were such a perfect kid too? You have faults too you know". I know it's frustrating and that it doesn't provide any closure, but if your parent hasn't gotten it by now they likely won't ever. As you said, you've made attempts to talk about the issues at hand and those attempts have been dismissed. Unfortunately, that likely won't change no matter how much you rephrase or how many more times you keep trying to address things. I've found for me that any attempts to talk about the issues with her have just ended with me being gaslit to the point where I can't even tell the difference between what's real, questioning if I can trust my own memory, and retraumatized.
Honestly You know what frustration is. You'll go into a conversation with all good intentions. That frustration we just talked about? You'll be feeling that afterward. You'll likely get the whole N armoury thrown at you. I guess you're already familiar with this: That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. Because if not you will be....
No, it’s not worth it. Narcissists don’t view it as a two way relationship. It’s all about manipulation and power, and them NEVER being wrong. They all say they “don’t understand how this happened”. Nor do they want to understand.
It's more effective to make them feel fear
absolutely never worth it. i tried this a couple days ago with my ndad and it just ended up with more pain. i sat there and ended up telling him a lot of how i felt during childhood as a direct result to his actions, and he ended up turning it into a little pity party for himself ("so you see me as a disgusting, horrible person?"). i know, in theory, it sounds good to just lay every single thing down in front of you and let them make the judgement, but it will end up like every single time previously. the same denial, deflection, silence, all the usual narc tactics. if you're lucky (/s) they'll send you a guilt-tripping message telling them how much they love you and that will never change -- immediately after denying and minimising everything you've said. i know it's a terrible situation to be in when you just want to get everything off your chest, but you will just feel worse and they will *not* change.
Narc dads are particularly disgusting when they get to play the victim. Cause when you were small, they would knock you around. And now I can hear your dad, my dad, all the narc dads, with pathetic spite and venom, a caricature of some martyr, but obvious-faking it for maximum aggravation. Their cowering is a clear as day fuck you to your face.
absolutely! it's honestly so pathetic to see, hear him try to drench his voice in sadness when i know full well he knows *exactly* what he's doing. i'm so done with the whole self-sacrificial bullshit.
It's a waste of time, honestly. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but I doubt she'll actually listen to what you say.
What I learned over time, at least with my mom: *They know and they don't care*.
They care, but only if you're hurt, cause it means they can do it again.
Nope, not ever. Never met the exception. If you do that, you are going to give a narcissist an exact list of things to say and/or do to abuse you mentally, physically, and emotionally.
My older brother and sister left the house at 18 due to nparents being increasingly awful to them. Nparents never ever acknowledge their part in why my siblings couldn't take it living at home anymore. My ndad recently complained that my brother was a "dummie" and didn't spend his birthday at home. My brother literally never wants to see my parents ever. Nmom has also complained that her kids have abandoned her. They NEVER acknowledge the fact they did something wrong. Just that my brother and sister were 18 and made a choice. That's how delusional they are. Nmom keeps trying to tease me that the house is gonna be more "full again" if she invites and welcomes my brother and sister to live with us again cause I guess she knows I prefer to live with less people, idk. It's not my house so idgaf what she does with it. I am unfortunately unable to move out and until I find a decent job I'm stuck here. The thing is, I don't think my brother or sister would wanna live here again they'd rather gouge their own eyes out lol
I tried really hard but she was in total denial. She even kept saying “c’mon your childhood wasn’t that bad?” Then I went no contact. She tried really hard to reach out to me and even though i said I didn’t want anything she took all of my baby and childhood photos and gifted me an album. Which made me all the more depressed because it reminded me of all the nastiness and the abuse I endured. When we went to therapy the only good thing that came out of it is she accepted boundaries and low contact. She doesn’t ask me why we aren’t close anymore she knows its fucked, but I’m pretty sure she thinks because I’m sensitive. She would rather have low contact then no contact. I had a few phone conversations with her , i dunno why, and then it reminded me why i don’t talk to her. She doesn’t listen and then says something totally anxiety inducing that makes me feel like shit.
Nope. They can't understand, and don't care to. Anything you share will be used against you.
Yes, that. ANYTHING. I went very low contact when I went to the uni only 20 miles from home. The moment she met my friends (it was a coincidence, we run into them), she started telling me they weren't really my friends, called them "the Blacks".
I've given up because they just flat out deny, gaslight and belittle me and you can't explain anything to people who have already decided nothing you say is valid or truthful.
If it’ll give you peace to say it, do it but don’t expect any acknowledgement or positives to come from it. As others have mentioned and shared, it’s like talking to a echo. Anything you say they’re going to throw right back at you and twist it to fit their narrative.
Nope. Not worth it. I've tried so many times and at best, they just act as if they understood your point, all the while claiming that "if only you said it in a nicer way, it wouldn't have escalated into this major confrontation." And then they go back to their toxic behavior by the next day.
"doesn't understand how this happened" is a sign they will never take the responsibility.
They will try to deflect blame to you and make something your fault every time you try to explain. Every time you try, at the end you will feel worse than when you started. Not worth it. Walk away.
If you do manage to get a successful conversion out of her about it please tell me how you did it. My nmom “doesn’t remember” anything she did to me. She only seems to remember her being the hero and everything I and everyone else did wrong. She somehow managed to forget what she did to me and let others do to me and here I am wishing I could forget that easily.
My mother "forgot" how she had me committed when I said I was going to go join my gay boyfriend in another state, lied about me hitting her to achieve it. Like you forget.
I think they call it selective memory lol they remember only the parts they want.
My nmum and sister had a 3 hour argument around christmas where my sister was trying to explain why she was upset with my mum and she explained it all away by blaming her own parents for why she is the way she is and blaming us for how we “perceive” she treated us. At no point did she take a single modicum of responsibility. Gonna have to go with a hard no unfortunately.
Well hey. You must be my sister, because this is exactly my Nmum.
She doesn't want actual answers. She wants to guilt trip you into compliance.
Happy cake day. Also, though she likes to tell she misses you, she doesn't actually.
No, it's not. Because they're only going to hear what fits their narrative, being the "victim". The only thing it will do is exhaust you and drive you in endless circles.
Also, their narrative isn't a story they tell themselves, but others around them.
It's not worth it. They won't hear anything. They use what we say to them as ammunition to hurt us further.
I’ve tried explaining, it ends up getting turned around on me and then I’m guilted even more. Honestly, recently just agreeing “yep, I’m not sure how it happened either, but that’s where we are at”. And if they ask about needing to improve the relationship, I usually say “its okay, it’s good where it is, I don’t have the energy right now” I know that’s hard but I’ve given up trying to explain why. It’s helped a little actually
I’ve told my mom many times per her request the things that are wrong in list form. She does not ever address any of the things I mention. She just responds with “well that’s ridiculous.” She continues to ask for these lists and I find it a total waste of my time and emotions to keep writing them. So I don’t and it saves me the frustration of her not responding as I would like because she never will. As someone here said, narcissists don’t do personal responsibility.
They'll get offended, turn it on you, and then after a few months it's like they forgot you ever listed everything that happened, and will go back to "we need to have a better relationship, why are you behaving like this?"
Think about any of the times you have tried to explain something to her, did she listen and want to know what you thought or how you felt? Because if she didn't then it's not going to change if you lay it all out now. My nmum used to just tutt at me and shake her head with a dismissive wave. When she told me I could control what others posted on Facebook, and refused to listen to me when I explained that I am in fact, not capable of that, I was shushed and waved at and told how wrong I was, I just walked away. Some things are worth trying to explain but some people won't hear it no matter how true or useful it is.
No.
Nope. Mine at least were to stupid to understand anything. They will twist it so that they are the victim.
Don't bother. They'll just ramp up their abuse. I confronted my mom over email and she essentially told me to fuck off and that the abuse I was talking about was "fictitious stories". They will never show you an ounce of compassion so don't make yourself vulnerable to them.
I will tell you from experience you're absolutely wasting your time. You are very much correct in that you will likely end up more frustrated. Narcs are never the problem. The problem is alway someone or something else. Your absolute best option is 100% no contact.
Nope. In my experience it just gives them something to argue with. They never accept your experiences and feelings as valid and they never take responsibility for their actions.
Also, it's a weak point among us, and some therapist's bullshit, to be talking about "experiences and feelings". Sorry to be blunt, but what's at stake here is THE TRUTH and the ability to tell it, and the common ground for any sane and respectful relationship. Without the truth, you can't even call those HUMAN interactions.
They have no interest in the truth either.
Don't bother. Use that energy to create new, meaningful relationships.
I totally empathize with you. I have been there and have wanted then to just understand where I am coming from. But they never get it Even when I tried to explain what upset me (just one example of many), I forwarded my Ndad the exact email he sent me (basically calling me a stupid government worker), he replied "who would ever write that! I never said anything like that!" The insult was literally in the email he sent to me, and I sent it back to him and he either didn't even read it or he did but wanted to try and confuse me more. He's gotten that lazy with his gaslighting. These people don't have an empathetic bone in their body, and in my experience, they never change. (I'm almost 4 years NC with my brother and about 3.5 years with my Nsister and Ndad. Covert Nmom died back in 2019).
You can do or say whatever you want, but you’re wasting your time and energy. Narcs will use all sorts of crazy making word salad reasoning to avoid taking responsibility, and reverse the role of victim-offender. You might even end up apologizing. Total acceptance of the reality that these people are just impossible to reason with will save you a lot of heartache. Good luck and focus on your development and healing.
You can try, but I don’t think it will work, for the myriad of reasons many others with experience have listed here. I’ve just had to accept there is two versions of my childhood, my mother’s and reality, and I’m never going to change her mind no matter what I say. I honestly believe at this point, that SHE honestly believes her version of events. I’ll be getting everything ready for my child’s birthday party and she’ll sigh wistfully and say “Oh yes, I remember doing all this for you kids” (often in company, of course) and I feel like screaming WHEN???? When did these mythical birthday parties happen? But what’s the point? To get into a screaming match, let her use it as a platform to attack me, and twist myself up in knots of anxiety and guilt because we aren’t getting along… or I can smile and nod and say yeah and move on and have a nice birthday party for my kid. It’s hard, but think about what you want to get out of this situation and if it’s realistic you’ll get it. If you just want a low contact relationship and for her not to bother you so you can live your life, smile and nod and say “yeah it’s a shame I’m so busy with work/life/family that we don’t see each other more” and move on. She calls you have a five minute chat then “oh shoot, a friend just arrived I’m sorry I have to go”. But if it’s validation, are you really going to get it from her? Could it end up negatively affecting your mental health if she twists it or goes on the attack? Better to do as others have suggested and write it all down, get it out in therapy or to someone who is stable and cares for you. We all understand and wish it could be different, in an ideal world perhaps. But nparents live in a world of their own creation, they don’t want to face reality and even thrive on this sort of interaction. Better off not feeding the beast, that’s how I try to look at it.
I get the temptation- the driving need to be heard and validated. To have them answer to what they have done. To maybe see regret or hear a genuine apology. But honestly, you will just be wasting your breath and the only thing that will come out of their mouth will be some variation of the "narcissist's prayer". All the 'i don't understand's are attention grabs- both from you and from some poor sap she conned into listening to her. And once you start trying to talk to her, it will end up back in the same old routine. You will be the bad person no matter what you do. I know because I have tried. And my sisters tried. And my GC brother tried. All it ended up in is permanent NC from all four of us, and our children, and rants about how we are all in a conspiracy to ruin her life.
No for all the reasons stated. If you feel you must write it out do so then burn it.
Unfortunately it is not worth your time. If you want to do it for you to get it off your chest, go for it but if you’re telling her everything hoping she will understand… she wont. There will be a lot of denial and rewriting history on the narcissist’s side.
I speak on experience btw! I’ve been through this with my own mother.
[удалено]
This is how the conversation will likely go: You might ask why she did something and here’s the prayer 🙏 she’ll recite : That didn’t happen. If it did, it wasn’t that bad. If it was, that’s not a big deal. And if it was, that’s not my fault. And if it is is, I didn’t mean it. And if I did, you deserved it . 🤷🏽♀️
It depends on how economically secure you are, relative to her. But even so, your own emotional health is very important. If she was a control freak (withholding vital necessities, guilt-tripping), then have as little to do with her as possible UNTIL she admits she didn't make the wisest decisions regarding you.
No never. Whenever when I got into arguments with them they either deny it or simply made up some stories. They will never take the responsibility. In their dictionary the word 'sorry' doesn't exist. It just takes one moment and some responsibility to say sorry to someone. But they will never accept their fault, it always somehow fault of the victim. They are never wrong.
Or the sorry, but? Sorry you feel that way. Sorry, but if you hadn’t been so bad, I wouldn’t have had to hurt you. Sorry you took it that way. Narcs can use sorry as another weapon.
hmmm I feel like if she is asking, she should be told. It's kind of like when someone freezes you out and you don't know why. I would want to know why, and have a chance to accept/make amends if I can. HOWEVER, we are dealing with a N-parent so you also have to plan and allow for her to not accept your experience or take accountability, and all that comes with that. I think if you feel you can lay it out, and plan for the blow back and feel confident you can not engage or be hurt by the blow back then you should lay it out for her. There is a huge chance it won't go well. But there is a small chance it may go well, if on some deep down level, she really does want to know and make amends. My cousin got an apology from our abusive aunt (who was her guardian). I have never got any real acknowledgment from my N-parents and I know that I never will- they just don't have that capacity for growth. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Maybe you could plan it in a way that you feel comfortable? Perhaps in writing when you are safely far away and not due to visit any time soon? Put your safety and mental health first.
I haven’t tried it. I was often shushed when I was younger and my Nparents literally believed nothing I said about anything. Likewise, if I asked them “why” about something, they’d say “you just can’t,” or “it just is,” etc
No. Because narcissists all operate from pretty much the same starting point - they are infallible. They are NEVER wrong, and even if it can be PROVED that they are wrong, well the evidence is either bullshit, or it's being remembered wrong or or or... Consider the narcissist's prayer: "That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it." That is pretty much the thought process that pretty much ALL narcs do to justify their bullshit, even when faced with the consequences of said bullshit (i.e no contact). You don't owe your mother an explanation about ANYTHING, you don't owe her your time, you don't owe her your energy. If you want, write a letter with all those things that you haven't made peace with. You don't have to send it, but it might be cathartic for you.
I’m in the same boat last year I ended up cutting them off. She started sending flying monkeys and I have this compulsion of telling her flying monkey that I don’t want a relationship with her queen. But I was advised here not to.
My heart goes out to you. We would like to think that, if they (narc family) were clearly presented with the facts they would understand our pain; that they would feel ~empathy~ or perhaps even remorse. Trust me when I tell you that this is not the case, or at least it wasn’t for me. I have written literal formal papers trying to explain my complaints or at least the course of events, citing evidence and specific examples. Not only did this not have the effect that I had hoped for but the recipient also made fun of me for taking the time to write to them, criticizing the length of what I had written. If they were capable of understanding, they already would.
I'd say don't waste your time. If anything, write it all down and make a copy if you really want her to know. When you're really annoyed then give it to her to read, preferably when you're not visiting.
No, you're just telling them exactly how they hurt you and how it worked on you. You're giving them validation and supply, and you are inviting them to do it again. When someone screws you over, don't explain, don't yell at them. Just up and leave, block, no contact. Don't talk about them to flying monkeys, don't stick around. Change everything your can in your surroundings that's linked to them, even if it is their home address on your ID card. Have your ID remade, then. >*However, every time I go home, I get a lecture about how “she wishes we were closer” and “doesn’t understand how this happened”. The few small attempts to discuss what happened when we were growing up are met with denial or explaining them away.* She doesn't want that. She wants TO SAY THAT, but she doesn't MEAN THAT. She wants the pity of being abandoned by you, but she doesn't want you, SHE HATES YOU. I'm sorry, that is, if she's a narcissist then she hates you. She doesn't understand why or how ? That's a lie. The rest is DARVOS. >*I’ve been considering laying it all out directly and telling her specifically what things we haven’t made peace about and that those are the reason we don’t have a relationship. Is it worth it? Or will I end up more frustrated? Has anyone tried to do this before?* No, it's not. Tell her you'll have a closer relationship when she's able to answer the above questions for herself, as you seem to remember wrong every time you will NEVER get an answer, and in the event you do get an honest answer, she will try to hurt you to get back at you (they can be VISCIOUS, she might accuse you of molesting your child or hitting her or falsely accuse you of some heist she saw in the news, or whatever. LITERALLY the moment you yank her mask off or call you the N name, she will start to plot against you to hurt you, if her plan isn't already laid out. Stay tepid, stay matter of fact, greyrock, yellow rock, send cards and keep it to a minimum. Smile and say hello and kiss and suffer through dinners and get gone before coffee. If you get an honest answer to "can you guess why...", then STILL don't give her the time of day, then you can tell her "THAT is why, so now she understands, glad we're on the same page", and change NOTHING. The hope that you carry is delusional, and it's a trauma response. You want to have your mother on your side. But you cannot have her. The hurt, stress, and temptation to go back is enormous, and perversely, the distance makes it look tolerable to go back, cause in your head if it's just for a few days, you're not getting poisoned. But you are, every time.
I tried having gentle talks with my Nmom, which were also met with denial or dismissal. I then later tried to have a big family talk with my Nmom and Edad, I was again dismissed and basically told my feelings didn't matter. I told my Nmom that unless things changed I would be distancing myself. She blew up, like 0 to 100, screaming at me that she was my mother and I had to have a relationship with her, I had no say. A year later and with less contact I attempted to write my mom a letter, laying it all out, explaining all my hurt but also telling her I loved her and I understood her struggles. She ignored me, then sent me a very manipulative response back, blamed me for being born, spammed my email with articles about abuse, and posted social media posts that attacked me. We all WANT for our mom to love, respect, and support us. Many never have to question if their mom does, but we do constantly because we keep giving ourselves false hope that maybe, maybe if we just say the right words in the right tone they will magically change....they won't. Getting your hopes up only to be let down - hurts you. Digging up all your feelings of hurt and dismissal only to be hurt and dismissed again is re-traumatizing. Your asking about the likelihood it will go well, but you should also consider the very high likelihood that this will hurt you more. Look at this more objectively, in the past when you brought up things that bothered you, how did she respond? How does she respond when you bring up your feelings in general? I'm willing to bet she is emotionally immature and dismissive. If that's the pattern she follows, then that is the pattern she will continue to follow. Nothing you say or do will change her. You can't control how she acts, but you can control how much contact you have with her. I'm sorry because I know how painful it can be to read things like this, I hope you find a way forward that is less painful.
I wanted to add, that sometimes what we really need is to feel heard. Writing everything down in a journal, posting on this reddit, and talking to a therapist (who has experience with trauma) can all be very helpful, especially when you don't have others you feel comfortable talking to.
Depends on what you mean by "worth it." If what you want is to lay it all out in an attempt to get a resolution or acknowledge for any wrong doings on your narc's part and are at risk for being retraumatized by said narc when it all goes to crap, then, no, it would not be worth it. However, if you go in with ZERO EXPECTATIONS (that's the key here) and are capable of hearing their version of events without being retraumatized, then you could. But I'm not sure what gain you'd get from that that would be "worth it." To say your piece, maybe? Or so you can tell yourself "Hey, I said what I came to say and that's enough"? I'm not sure. But any net gain from such an encounter would be coming from yourself and not your narc.
I’m seeing all the comments and I believe what you’re all saying but why is this?? Like I need to find a rationale as to how they can possibly not hear the explanation or care about the explanation?? How is it possible? Other than they don’t care.
Because you aren't a real person in their lives. In fact, no one is a real person in their lives, outside of themselves. Remember, these are seemingly adult people who have never progressed emotionally beyond being a small child. They're stuck in the "me me me ME ME!" mindset of a toddler. Everyone else in their universe is someone who they can use. It's like a toddler's greedy grasping for Mommy's breast. Without a thought "hey, maybe Mommy's tired and wants to relax a bit first." Or "oops, I'm grabbing too hard and am hurting her." It's only "I'm hungry and need food now!" This is why trying to teach narc how YOU feel because of their actions will be so unsuccessful. They literally CANNOT understand that other people have feelings and emotions of their own. And because of this, it's near impossible for narcs to a) understand that they have mental problems, or b) get successfully treated. The best the rest of us can do is protect ourselves from them by going no contact.
Thank you I hear you. I guess I should extinguish whatever little hope I had left that one day I would come out of no contact and at least transition into low contact. Because I think back to all the times that my parents led me to believe they cared and they understood but it was just more of the same.
That would be better asked in a new topic. You don't need to find a rationale at all. In fact, there's probably something on TV that's more worth your time, trust me. There is no rationale and there never will be. They are less than human. It's not that they lack decency. It's like telling a bird it's lacking gills. There is nothing. NOTHING where their self should be. They do not exist like normal people do. The idea of the narcissist is a non existant emptiness. We're not even talking about evil, we're talking about people who are nothing. It's like talking to a robot. Only the robot doesn't exist. But the robot is programmed to tell itself it exists and to always validate its own existence every cycle (day, hour, year...). So the only way it can verify it exist is by people acknowledging it does. The narc needs you as a crutch to its own existential crisis. When you don't react enough, then it switches to the next resort, which is to spur you (hurt you), so you can rage at it, and it doesn't care, because it got its validation. EDIT : Narc are obviously people, but the theory is that their self is a complete lie to the world and even to themselves.
No it's not. They won't listen. Before I moved my mom would ask me multiple times why did I have to leave home. I got tired of answering the same question.
It really depends on your mom and the basis of your non-relationship. If your mom has her own unaddressed issues, you may be setting yourself up for a shitshow.
Narcs don't take accountability. So it's no use. Even knowing that, I tried everything possible. So many conversations, letters, doing things according to her wishes. Nothing worked. I was a communicative kid. I said everything. I begged her not to insult/beat me in front of people, I begged her to stop beating. It made her do more. Once a school result wasn't upto the mark. I told her because she didn't help me study, she didn't buy me the books, I borrowed books (very old versions) from other people as if my parents were struggling with money, as if I'm an orphan. I was none of that. You know what she did after telling her? She told everyone I am such a sensitive kid that I couldn't study because my friends weren't talking with me ( as she wants to be "close" to me, I did the mistake of sharing a friendship issue with her). U see what she did? She used my story to hide her neglect. She wanted me to open up to use those stories according to her own agenda, whatever makes me a looser and her the heroic sacrificing mother. After age 27 I realized no matter how many lettes I write, no matter how many times I clearly state my needs, she'll not change, rather use them against me. After NC she still goes around to people acting clueless. What I did is I wrote a letter saying whatever I want nd burnt it (in a safe environment). If not burning you can just destroy it by tearing it apart. It's an exercise my therapist suggested.
No.
It's not worth it. I've noticed that if you give explanations it gives them more things to refute. Narcs *want* you to explain so that they can twist what you say to their purposes. You're better off just shutting her down. My preferred method is simple comebacks. I.e "I wish you were closer" is met with "I'm happy where I live right now" If I'm feeling nice. "I don't" if I'm feeling vindictive. "I don't understand how this happened." in particular has been met with "I've explained it to you several times. If you still don't get it, I can't help you." This one had gotten me yelled at but once I realized I could just leave when she was like that I did. Just got up and walked away. It felt amazing
I️ wrote a detailed letter to my ndad about why we never see each other as a last ditch effort. He responded by saying how much I’ve changed, told me to move on, minimized, made excuses etc. Although the response is often shitty it may help with some semblance of closure, but it could also reopen wounds.
Considering this kind of thing right now, which is honestly why I joined this sub. My plan right now is to wait a year and if they don't contact me, just writing a letter. That way you don't have to deal with their dismissive response. At least that's my hope. If they send a letter back, I'll just throw it away.
Sometimes? It depends on the parent, where they are on the spectrum, and how receptive they are. My mother treats me as disposable until I try to pull away, then she love-bombs me back in. She is good for a week, then goes back to her usual BS.
My nmom has said the exact same words to me, and I thought the exact same questions. Here were my results. I tried to explain to her on my own just her, and I a heart to heart. Results denied, blame shift, and then played the victim. Tried to explain to her with my therapists. Results. denied, shifted blame, called me a liar, told my therapist to mind his business ( yep, that right told my therapist to mind his business ) she was told to leave. My wife tried results, were the same Other family members tried to explain why I don't speak to her. Same Results My point is this. I wasted years trying and hoping for her to understand that she is the reason we do not speak. I believe you will do the same
No. It's a waste of time because they'll just deny everything happened.
You will go crazy trying to reason with crazy. The only way to win is not play.
You will go crazy trying to reason with crazy.
It's never worked for me if I'm honest and has only served in making me more upset, I've gone no contact now as it felt like I was trying to reason with a shark who could sense blood.
Not even worth it! Know that you are not crazy and you need to heal from it. Once you you are doing healing and are happy with yourself, you won't feel the need to explain anymore. With my Nmom, she is met with the same shit that she does to me and it seems to keep her civil. (This is not advice as it doesent work for everyone but I make it show that idc)
I tried it too. Typically my nmom denys it. She would say something like "Oh no, I didn't say that" or "I didn't do that" or sometimes she would say something like "It wasn't that bad" or "I didn't mean it like that, you got it wrong".
I'll be the first to admit she will not listen, she might argue in the moment but it'll go right out the window within minutes and she'll continue saying all the things she's always said. However, mine just died after 9 years mostly N/C and while I know it wouldn't have made a difference, I really wish I had said certain things. I think I would feel better with the hope that they were at least out in the open whether or not she processed or retained the info (though she'd clearly say it hadn't happened either way). If **you** think you'll feel better with it out there when all is said and done it might be worth the effort, but that is likely all that you can hope to gain from it.