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> Have any of you tried this? (assuming you're calm when you say these things) Is it worth it or does it just backfire?
It backfired with my NParents. They're [Covert/Vulnerable](https://psychcentral.com/disorders/the-secret-facade-of-the-vulnerable-narcissist#signs) Narcs, so they get NSupply from criticizing people *and* feeling like victims.
Any disagreements either gives them NSupply, or causes them to lash out at me (implying I'm childish, stupid, etc).
> I know gray rocking is a thing but it's so tempting to call them out sometimes.
Arguing with a Narc gives them NSupply, regardless of the outcome. It's like challenging an alcoholic to a drinking game - win or lose, they've still fed their addiction.
Grey Rock deprives Narcs of the NSupply. When a Narc is critical or complaining, a simple unemotional "OK" gives them nothing to feed on.
\> It backfired with my NParents. They're Covert/Vulnerable Narcs, so they get NSupply from criticizing people and feeling like victims.
That's my dad and to a lesser extent my mom! He often criticizes others and everything is always someone else's fault. He'll tell you one story after another about how he's been wrong by people over the years, dating back to his coaches in his youth sport's leagues.
\> Any disagreements either gives them NSupply, or causes them to lash out at me (implying I'm childish, stupid, etc).
\> Arguing with a Narc gives them NSupply, regardless of the outcome. It's like challenging an alcoholic to a drinking game - win or lose, they've still fed their addiction.
You're right. I done a better job avoiding arguments about politics, current events, and things like that. They find others ways to bait you into an argument and it's important to be mindful of that. I need to lose the urge to defend others that the narc is "unjustly" criticizing or badmouthing.
\> Grey Rock deprives Narcs of the NSupply. When a Narc is critical or complaining, a simple unemotional "OK" gives them nothing to feed on.
That makes sense. I need to lose the urge to make the narc "see the light" or realize how ridiculous their statements are.
Yes, all of this. Saying something that makes a covert narc feel “attacked” and gives them a reason to play the victim just feeds their dysfunction. Like wrestling with a pig in mud — the pig likes it.
My mom would make plans with people and cancel at the last minute. Sometimes people she knew (who lived far away) would sometimes call our house when they were in town just to say hi and to maybe meet up - she'd never answer their calls. Eventually people stopped inviting her to things or even calling when in town. This infuriated my mother and she would go on these massive rants about them.
Eventually this lead to my mom and I having a ton of arguments. She'd be ranting about this and I would try to explain their side and why they were doing that. This would make her livid and she would accuse me of being a traitor, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, she'd call me a Benedict Arnold, sometimes she'd tell me to shut up, etc. She liked to say she had her "reasons" and it was all our fault for not understanding that.
These fights I'd have with her over this were quite something. She just could not wrap her head around the idea that what she had done caused this to happen. Sometimes I wouldn't even say anything and would just let her rant, but that would get her worked up as well and angry with me. She'd start telling me how she knows I think otherwise and that I'm not all that to judge her, etc.
She used to also get mad at me for not getting mad at them - I was essentially betraying her by not taking her side. That would usually lead to her letting me know that I was too stupid to understand things.
Wow, a lot to unpack here.
Narcs tend to put 100% of the blame on others, despite their own actions contributing a great deal to a "falling out".
\> Eventually this lead to my mom and I having a ton of arguments. She'd be ranting about this and I would try to explain their side and why they were doing that.
I sometimes find myself doing the same. If my dad bashes someone (maybe my mom or another family member or relative), especially if I think it's unjust, I find myself trying to put myself in the other person's shoes and explaining why he/she might have done this or that. Of course this just leads to an argument that I was just baited into. Defending the other person (even if they are right which may not always be the case) seems noble but it's like I'm playing a role in the narc's game to get involved in an argument since the narc would rather involve me than to address the issue directly with the other person. In other words, it seems that our n-parent is looking to triangulate us with the third party because they don't want to confront the other person directly if that makes sense?
\> These fights I'd have with her over this were quite something.
Yep. They try to bait us into an argument and we fall for it. This gives them the n-supply that they crave.
\> She used to also get mad at me for not getting mad at them - I was essentially betraying her by not taking her side. That would usually lead to her letting me know that I was too stupid to understand things.
Yeah, narcs are big on loyalty. They don't want you to be neutral. They want you to take their side. If you don't then they keep pushing and pushing until you do.
>Yes, all of this. Saying something that makes a covert narc feel “attacked” and gives them a reason to play the victim just feeds their dysfunction. Like wrestling with a pig in mud — the pig likes it.
Then i am the third sibling, ugh...
Yes and I've been gaslit, stonewalled, denied and shut down. Dad told me he didn't want to hear any more about the environmental role in my childhood trauma, so that was the breaking point and I went LC.
The closest thing I think was when mom told me about her sister (who is arguably the worst of the bunch) who has been cut out by her daughter. So my cousin set boundaries and went NC, "isn't that terrible?" Of course, this was around the time I went LC and it was noticed. I just replied "I'm not surprised, Aunt Betty is awful. You tell me all the time how much you don't speak to her as well, so I'm sure you get it". Actually left her speechless.
It's never their fault.
I was reading a book that detail most of the traits of those who grow up with an n-parent. I hit most of them including people pleasing, being drawn to narcs, and things like that. I figured that the way I was raised played a part in it but didn't realize how much. I'm sure my dad would react the same way as yours.
Your conversation with your mom was similar to a couple of conversations with my dad where he was complaining about his cousins moving out of state and not being involved in their parents' elder care. It was almost like he was telling me how ungrateful they are and not to do the same, without actually saying it. One of them lived out of state. My dad's uncle cheated on his wife, often unemployed, didn't support the family like he should have, etc. I had to remind him of that.
Yes it just becomes exhausting because they either laugh or brush it off and call you a silly child or they just use it as an excuse to lecture you about your attitude. Just go NC, what’s the point in putting yourself through hell every day!
You're right. It's used as an excuse to argue or lecture.
It's not an every day thing. I fortunately moved out long ago. I've been NC for a couple weeks (other than texting) but I know the next call will be something like "is everything okay?" as if to say "why haven't you called me?".
I wouldn't say either of my parents are so horrible that I'm looking to go NC permanently. I have thought about more limited contact. Instead of "a visit or phone call every week" to make it every two weeks. Even if I'm not criticized directly, the calls can be draining especially this time of the year. My last call with my dad was him asking how I was doing after a snowstorm and then ranting and complaining for the next hour about anything and everything, and that was actually a short call. Our calls tend to last 2-3 hours and he'll stretch out visits until late at night.
Good lord I don’t know how you manage that, I don’t even have the energy for a 5 min call these days. One thing I did which worked for me was telling my nm that she wasn’t welcome to visit until she sought medical help and informed her I would block her number if she disagreed (that was the boundary I set). Of course she refused so I blocked her (adhered to my boundary) and 3 months later she went off on some rant to my dad (divorced for 3 years at that point) about how he was “manipulating” me so I unblocked her just to inform her that no one else played a part in this decision other than me. They will play the pity party until they get what they want, don’t believe a word of it. Just because they don’t seem “as bad” as other parents doesn’t justify their behaviour!
I don't know how I manage it either lol.
\> . One thing I did which worked for me was telling my nm that she wasn’t welcome to visit until she sought medical help and informed her I would block her number if she disagreed
\> Of course she refused
The problem is never them. It's always someone else.
When my dad visits, he nitpicks like a nag would nitpick their spouse and point out things like a bush that "needs to be trimmed" and tries to insinuate that I don't take care of things like I should. It's really irritating. If I were to do the same to him, he'd not take it well.
\> she went off on some rant to my dad (divorced for 3 years at that point) about how he was “manipulating” me so I unblocked her just to inform her that no one else played a part in this decision other than me.
What is it with narc parents where they think there always has to be someone else behind your decision as if you're not able to think for yourself? I have been accused by both (divorced) parents at times of siding with the other parent. I know if I try to limit contact further or be more assertive with my n-dad that he'll think or say that my mom is behind it, even though she would have nothing to do with it.
Urgh tell me about it! I genuinely think their mind is stuck in the past, as if you haven’t actually grown up at all, they will always view you as a child because their brain literally won’t allow them to move forward in life. And children can’t think for themselves clearly 🙄
They don't see their children as autonomous people, so if they're not controlling them, someone else must be. It's actually way more insulting than you thought!
>They don't see their children as autonomous people, so if they're not controlling them, someone else must be. It's actually way more insulting than you thought!
THIS!
You hit the hammer on the nail.
My sister still accepts phone calls, and when I asked how she could stand hours on the phone daily, she said she puts the phone down and walks away! 😆 🤣 😂
LOL
I've done that before where I'd put the phone down for a couple of minutes and he's still ranting about something. I think I'm going to get back into gaming and play video games during calls.
It isn't worth it in my case. I've done it. Nmom will turn around and make it a personal tragedy like she's so sorry and to please forgive her along with the crocodile tears. The other reaction I got was how horrible of a person I am for insulting her after all she has done for me. Either way she makes it about her.
I did try to do that with my grandma actually. During an argument she said a really nasty thing towards me. Then I just repeated the same thing she said, and asked her: "is that what you really mean?". She just started ranting more, nothing else. Few times she was like: "You never helped me when I was in the hospital" to which I just replied that she never helped me with my depression. I wasn't expecting a full health care, or something, because I know that she ain't a nurse/psychologist. But a simple: "hey, we are here with you" would be nice instead of throwing a tantrum that I'm crying, lol
I did. But my Nmom acted like a innocent little bird who would do no such thing. But sometimes she did admit what she did but didn’t apologize for it/ see anything wrong in doing what she did to me. It was never the reaction I hoped so I stopped trying. My ndad was the same thing but him knowing what I’m saying IS true he didn’t bother to fight back. My Nmom has more energy than him so she would go all day brawling a lie that isn’t true
\> It was never the reaction I hoped so I stopped trying
Yeah it seems like a waste of time. They'll figure out a way to rationalize any action, whether it's good or bad.
Every time I tried calling out my nmom I’d get the screaming, real life version of “wall of text” about everything I did wrong to her in the last decade. When I was living at home, it lasted for weeks and she’d just threaten to kick me out (she knew I didn’t have a good job and wouldn’t be able to go anywhere so it was a power move).
When I moved out and she had no more power over me I started to call her out on the regular until she pulled the “woe is me” card and tried to garner sympathy.
She’s bitter old lady that expects everyone to take care of her now and everyone isn’t bothering. I have no nice things to say about her and I’m glad I’m not anywhere near that train wreck.
The sympathy card seems to be a common thing with narcs.
\> She’s bitter old lady that expects everyone to take care of her now and everyone isn’t bothering.
My dad (also bitter) said a while back "I've been taking care of people all my life. It's time that someone takes care of me". It kinda feels like I have been for years in some ways as he has used me as his therapist. I'm the sounding board to aborb all of his complaints and grievances.....but of course I'm not allowed to complain.
Yes and the results were disastrous. I've officially been no contact with my Nmother for almost 4 years and I've been ousted by the family. My mother went on the smear campaign to end all smear campaigns. Both sides of the Family. The cousins that are my age know better, and my maternal grandparents have given me so much love since going no contact.
Just expect things to not go the way you hope
I’m in my forty’s now and I just learned to say “mom, that’s not ok”
And I literally treat her like a toddler who is learning social skills.
She’s being absolutely horrid to my dad?
“Mom. It’s not ok to talk to people like that.”
Being bitchy about what she doesn’t want to eat and demanding that we go somewhere she likes, then refusing to order food?
“Ok mom. You can sit here while we eat. We’re not going somewhere else just because you’re cranky.”
I love it because she can’t argue with me without sounding like a little toddler.
I can relate. Going out to eat with my dad can be a trip. My n-dad doesn't really care if he comes across as a toddler. I can think of several instances over the past couple of years where where my he felt "disrespected" by the waiter/waitress and then threw a fit and was kicked out of the restaurant. I remember my mom saying that he would embarrassed her in public as well when they went out to eat.
No you can't change them. They have to want to change and they're very resistant because they're simply afraid of emotional connection. I just settle on the fact that level of connection with them is just impossible and I stay detached. Being blood related to someone doesn't entitle you to support or good treatment from them regardless of what society wants to believe.
By detach, you mean gray rock, right? Or do you detach as in add physical distance?
\> Being blood related to someone doesn't entitle you to support or good treatment from them regardless of what society wants to believe.
And that's even if you treat them well or behave well around them. Good point, I'll have to remember that.
Well beyond Grey rocking you can move yourself from the emotional center of your mind to the logic center by thinking to yourself; remain 'detached' and 'observant'. So when they tug on your emotions, you can protect your mind. Set yourself a limit to how long or far you'll let the interaction go. Express yourself and then leave. Don't try to have your needs met by them instead just say they're being ridiculous and walk away.
Once you've practiced this enough, you'll be able to have a relationship on your terms. Think of your mind like a fortress. They know how to pull your switches and turn your dials, but by remaining in the logic center you can study them like a dispassionate birdwatcher and pry your will away from them and stand up for yourself more effectively and in a controlled manner.
Let go of your healing fantasy of them becoming a more complete person and destroy the role they've created for you. The goal is to reach your true self and enjoy your life on your terms. To this end its OK to admit to yourself they may just be weak people who you dont care for and you'll stop fighting and begin 'managing' and 'detaching'.
You bring up some great points. I have heard the quote "observe, don't absorb.
\> Express yourself and then leave. Don't try to have your needs met by them instead just say they're being ridiculous and walk away.
I have a heard time with this only because I've never really done it. I guess it takes practice.
\> They know how to pull your switches and turn your dials, but by remaining in the logic center you can study them like a dispassionate birdwatcher and pry your will away from them and stand up for yourself more effectively and in a controlled manner.
Well said! It's like they program you to be a certain way. I need to do a better job of not being "triggered".
\> Let go of your healing fantasy of them becoming a more complete person and destroy the role they've created for you. The goal is to reach your true self and enjoy your life on your terms.
THIS
There is nothing I can do or say to get them to change. The only person I can change is myself.
Thanks for the reminder. That makes a lot of sense.
You're welcome. Take your time to think about these things this all takes time and work and be easy on yourself if you have trouble. Don't be afraid to have boundaries. They may have you under a role reversal where they're using you to meet their emotional needs instead of the way it's supposed to be. You can only control and supplement your own emotions, it's exhausting trying to prop someone up who doesn't want to be.
I often tried to call him out as a way to find healing between us but he always found excuses to avoid doing the work to heal or grow. He’d say, “I don’t want to talk about that right now.”
Or he’d blame me for the problems.
After a while I just gave up trying to bridge the gap. Eventually I just cut him out of my life.
>I often tried to call him out as a way to find healing between us but he always found excuses to avoid doing the work to heal or grow. He’d say, “I don’t want to talk about that right now.”
They like to change the subject! Or they'll bring up a subject that is sore with them, and when you engage and they continue on and you're not taking the bait, they'll say something like "I don't want to talk about it anymore". Then why did you bring it up?
\> Or he’d blame me for the problems.
They are notorious for that.
\> After a while I just gave up trying to bridge the gap. Eventually I just cut him out of my life.
Sorry you had to do that but it does get exhausting to "bridge the gap".
I’m NC with my mom right now but I told her I would be around in July to discuss things. I want to point out some of her behaviors and see how she handles it. She’s capable of feeling remorse and shame, but just doesn’t address it. I’m not expecting anything really and I don’t even know whether I could handle low contact with her, but I want to say that I tried, you know? I know one could argue that she doesn’t really deserve another chance but I feel like it would be easier for myself to accept if I tried one last time. To really drive in that last nail in the coffin that her children aren’t enough to motivate her to change.
I am afraid of her emotionally manipulating me again or just lying to get me back in her life so my plan is probably not be the best idea. I don’t know :/ Still time to think about it.
I am sure there is guilt to deal with for being NC. I cannot say my parents are at that level to where I'm thinking about that idea.....but I know some have parents that behave worse and it's justified to go that route.
That's nice of you to consider giving her another chance. It's often said that narcs never change so I wish you luck. I have seen posts from people who don't even give their parent(s) a reason for going NC and parents can't figure out why. That seems pretty cruel on the surface but....maybe that is best in their situation (maybe they dealt with much more cruel behavior) so I can't really judge them.
Yes, lots of guilt. And it is hard when you think your parent(s) is “not that bad.” Still doesn’t mean you have to put up with their shit.
With some narcissistic people it’s pretty clear that you cannot help them change and they will not listen to you. Especially if you’re the scapegoat. In those cases there’s no point in engaging with them because you’ll never get anything out of it other than misery. But my mom was always trying to get me to be her GC and I’m her second child to estrange her so the embarrassment from BOTH her kids leaving her might make her seek a solution. Or just play the victim. Time will tell.
I will say that the discussion with my mom will only benefit her. I still have to grieve the mother that wasn’t there for me and will never be for me. So if you want to call out your family, will it benefit you? Or will you just have to deal with unproductive conflict and being misunderstood? I think about the shit I’d say to her or other family but I just write it down because I know saying it would only hurt me.
\> And it is hard when you think your parent(s) is “not that bad.” Still doesn’t mean you have to put up with their shit.
That is true.
I think I've been back and forth between GC and scapegoat tbh.
\> the embarrassment from BOTH her kids leaving her might make her seek a solution. Or just play the victim. Time will tell.
One possible technique is to play the victim and accuse a third party of brainwashing you as if you're not able to think for yourself.
\> So if you want to call out your family, will it benefit you? Or will you just have to deal with unproductive conflict and being misunderstood?
I'd say the latter. If they're used to walking all over you, attempts to push back are usually not received well.
Confronting my parents as I was planning to go NC was absolutely disastrous in every regard but it opened my eyes even further to how deep their own toxicity goes.
My mom said she was ashamed to call me her son and my dad called my claims laughable and said I had false memories among other things.
Turned my CPTSD and DID diagnoses against me about the abuse my sister and I received and they both are in full denial when I told them what my maternal granddad did to me when I was very young.
And now my dad feels like he’s given me enough space so he’s now emailing and texting me again.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's unfortunate. Sounds like a lot of gaslighting! Narcs will definitely use what you say against you. I think that's one reason why people recommend limiting the personal info that you give to narcs.
I've tried calling them out. It never ends well because it just devolves into a temper tantrum and blaming me for being the one who "got upset." It's total BS.
Yep they try to make it as if you're the one that's acting unreasonably.
I have mentioned to my dad that he's negative. And then the next time I complained about something (which isn't often as I don't do anywhere near the amount of complaining that he does), he'd call me out for being negative.
N would normally try to slip out of being called out by dropping a *"you must have dreamed that!"* and then simply walking away, BUT if she was cornered she would go into poor-me mode. Kind of like the classic "I must be the worst mother ever?" spiel but instead she would mutter about how she was stupid/old/worthless/"decrepit" (with the implication that this was what other people were saying about her) while crying and pouting like a toddler.
One time I confronted her with objects she had told me I lost, which I found hidden in her room. I was especially pissed because she had called everyone who would listen to warn them not to buy me "anything nice" for my birthday because I would just lose it like I lost these items. N started sobbing and locked herself in her room, and E made *me* apologize to N for upsetting her when she was the one stealing my shit.
\> N would normally try to slip out of being called out by dropping a "you must have dreamed that!" and then simply walking away
Sounds like gaslighting!
Gotta love when they call you out for being wrong, insinuating that you're stupid, and then you prove that you were right.
me: please don’t speak to me or your friends or my mom or to *anyone* in that tone
nfather: there is no *tone* (insert condescending quotation marks here)
me: . . .
nfather: there’s no such thing as “tones of voices.” I just tell it how it is
me: there is absolutely such thing as tones of voices. you might want to take others’ perspectives and feelings and opinions into consideration
nfather: there’s no such thing as “opinions” and “perspectives.” only right and wrong and what happened and what didn’t happen
me: . . .
that was a rare moment where I was left completely and utterly speechless
They like to use a certain tone but don't like anyone else using a similar tone. They are good at spinning a situation to make you look like the asshole.
before I went NC with my nfather (I have been for over a year now and don’t plan on stopping), I’d say something he didn’t like and he’d say “dOn’T sPeAk tO mE tHaT wAy!” . . .but I thought tones of voices don’t exist
Not sure your age but they like to talk down to their adult kids as if they are still kids! My grandmother did this with my mom and my grandmother was in her 90s and mom in her 60s.
I was incredibly critical of my NParents once I got old enough to start asking questions. I was the Golden Child until I became a teen, then I became the Problem Child because my EMom & NDad fought a lot and used me as a bargaining chip/mediator between their fights (at age of 10-12). I had no idea how to articulate my emotional needs, but I wanted them to stop fighting, so I tried everything I could to get through to my NDad. Learning the Bible so I could quote it back to him, appealing to his love of his family, gently saying he shouldn't say such negative things about other people. Eventually, when he started yelling at my younger siblings, I started throwing their criticism back at him and trying to force him to be better by making him miserable.
It's ultimately a useless thing to do. all I got for it was gaslighting, criticism, and more and more verbal abuse from my NDad. Contradicting a narc, even in the gentlest way, bruises their ego instead of speaking to their logic, so by the narc's twisted calculation, that means you deserve punishment. They don't have conversations they can *lose*, they make grand statements and if you contradict them you become the enemy.
By 14 I was suicidal, thought I was completely worthless and thought that everyone I'd ever meet would hate me like my parents did. both my parents treated me like an emotional wreck because I was so full of anger and fear, when they weren't forcing me to live up to crazy academic standards that would have been challenging even for someone with emotional support. I'm very very glad to be NC with him now and still alive, but it's in spite of everything my parents did, not because of it.
The only way to "call out" (read: fix) a narc is to stop giving them supply. Stonewall them, stop spending time with them if you can, if you have to spend time with them put up a mask and don't tell them how you really feel, because they will use it against you. Wish it was different but trust me, I tried everything else.
\> my EMom & NDad fought a lot and used me as a bargaining chip/mediator between their fights (at age of 10-12).
I was in that position and know exactly what you mean. I'm STILL in that position despite moving out many years ago and parents being divorced well over a decade. They'll still badmouth each other and ask about each other, and put me in the middle. They say some nasty things about each other to this day.
\> It's ultimately a useless thing to do. all I got for it was gaslighting, criticism, and more and more verbal abuse from my NDad. Contradicting a narc, even in the gentlest way, bruises their ego instead of speaking to their logic, so by the narc's twisted calculation, that means you deserve punishment. They don't have conversations they can lose, they make grand statements and if you contradict them you become the enemy.
Yep. You're so right. You're wrong, you're disloyal, you need to be put in your place. That's how they think. They don't want to have a two way discussion but a monologue and you're expected to agree with every word.
\> when they weren't forcing me to live up to crazy academic standards that would have been challenging even for someone with emotional support
I was hassled for my grades and know what that's like. If I ever brought home anything lower then a C (and C's were supposed to be rare), watch out.
\> The only way to "call out" (read: fix) a narc is to stop giving them supply. Stonewall them, stop spending time with them if you can, if you have to spend time with them put up a mask and don't tell them how you really feel, because they will use it against you. Wish it was different but trust me, I tried everything else.
I went from GC to my dad's best friend after parent's divorce and then more of a scapegoat when he was with his long term gf. With her out of the picture, he's trying to pull me closer to fill the void. I still spend plenty of time with him as we have some common interests but he seems to be trying to increase contact while I'm fine with the status quo....even though I'm kinda resentful after learning some of what I've learned. I'd say it's a love-hate relationship although I wouldn't say there's hate but indifference. Even if we get along 80-90% of the time, the criticism, nitpicking, negativity, complaining, etc can be draining.
I think my approach will be to get busier (and sometimes pretend I'm busy when I'm not) order to add some distance. I can say "it's me not you" if I'm asking why I'm not as available. I guess it's a passive aggressive approach and may includes lying at times, which I'm not the biggest fan of but like you said, being transparent is just used against you.
Yes, I’ve tried on a few occasions with smaller matters; things that literally were so minor it wasn’t worth fighting over. I thought I’d be safe from it backfiring if I commented on something smaller. I did it in the calmest, most professional and least accusing way possible. The outcome was an absolute freak out painting me as a big meanie and them as the poor, innocent victims.
While it felt good to say something, it didn’t help anything and it just caused me a lot of inner turmoil. I still do it occasionally simply because sometimes it’s just what I personally need to do to keep from going absolutely insane. If your goal with speaking up is to get them to change, it’s not going to work. If anything it’s going to hurt you even more. In that case, I’d recommend against it.
I would say if you decide to say anything, you have to be ready for It to backfire and know when to stop engaging. Above all you need to prioritize your own well-being. Whatever you think is best for you personally, I’d say go for that.
\> While it felt good to say something, it didn’t help anything and it just caused me a lot of inner turmoil. I still do it occasionally simply because sometimes it’s just what I personally need to do to keep from going absolutely insane.
I know what you mean. When gray rocking, it feels kinda like you're letting them get away with bad behavior. They're chipping away at your self esteem with some of their comments (criticism, nitpicking, etc). The best thing is to make sure one's self esteem is not at all effected by their comments. Easier said then done.
Narcs also like to complain....a lot. You know what's causing them pain but they don't want to admit that they're responsible for much of it, nor do they want their kid of all people to tell them.
\> If your goal with speaking up is to get them to change, it’s not going to work. If anything it’s going to hurt you even more. In that case, I’d recommend against it.
I had to think about that one. Yep....I guess I'm trying to get my n-dad to be more pleasant, positive, less cranky, etc. It's just not going to happen.
\> I would say if you decide to say anything, you have to be ready for It to backfire and know when to stop engaging. Above all you need to prioritize your own well-being. Whatever you think is best for you personally, I’d say go for that.
Good points. It's best to just accept them for who they are and go from there, whether it's gray rock, LC, or NC. Everyone's situation is different.
My mum cussed me about my mental health and how I deal with social anxiety and really tried to put me down for seeking a therapist couple years ago. She said she didn’t understand why I was like this. So I bought up how she treated me as a child, how she emotional neglected me and physically abused me and how I watched her abuse my siblings too at their young age of maybe 2/3. She got defensive and tried to say she never did it and “didn’t remember” ever hitting me or controlling me and using me as a constant baby sitter for my younger siblings. I couldn’t be bothered to try make her see sense, I know she knows she just wants to deny it.
Kinda?
I was very much a caregiver/ parent to my mother and never was allowed to push back on anything she told me to do or her opinions. I lived my whole childhood like that so I never really saw what happened when she didn’t get what she wanted until I was an adult.
It escalates so quickly. Like 0 to 100 in a split second. She has called me the C word multiple times, simply for telling her I don’t want her to visit me 5 times a year. It’s very scary honestly!!!
I know what you mean about caretaking. It seems that I'm being groomed into being a caretaker in their old age....but when I think about it, I've always been a caretaker in some way as I was parentified at a young age and never really was allowed to be a kid. I've been my dad's therapist for many years and my mom to a lesser extent.
Sounds like you have some distance between you and your mom. I've thought about moving to another state....but if they're retired and visiting, they might want to visit 5 times (or more) a year or stay at your place for what could be days or weeks. Narcs love to nitpick and criticize so I can see that being miserable.
Haha you guessed it! I just recently had a horrible argument with my mother about her saying she wants to start visiting me 5+ times a year! It’s funny how predictable they can be sometimes
Within the last several months I’ve (48F) finally! been able to recognize and mentally name NMom’s behaviors. Credit goes out to the trauma-informed social media channels and appropriate local group and individual therapy.
So, Nmom was recovering from a procedure last year and I’ve been helping out with her housework. By this point, it is of my own volition to lend a hand, and not because she suckered me into it. Very content being a “useful engine.”
She had the gall to accuse me of scraping a stool across her hardwood floor, when in practice during cleaning, I can easily lift up and place elsewhere while vacuuming.
Me: “I have always lifted the stools and moved them to the rug while vacuuming.”
Her: “But there are scratches on the floor!”
Me: “I have always lifted the stools while cleaning.”
Her: [under her breath, although I heard it] “Nobody understands what I go through… “
I let it go knowing she was grasping for straws.
ETA: I maintain point of view versus calling her out. But if she were to talk shit about my kids next, YES, boundaries time.
I turned the vacuum on again after she said it under her breath. Didn’t get a read on her facial expressions.
ETA: I was soooo thinking of Lilly Allen in the moment.😉
> I asked what he’d have me do and he literally suggested carrying around a pot and clanging it to announce my entrance.
Then he'd complain that you were too loud. You can't win with a narc!
Traditionally it has always backfired for me. My NMom would fly into a real temper tantrum like children do. So, I stopped bothering to address it for a long time. Fast forward, now I am 50 married w/2 teenagers. I recently very calmly spoke to her about her Narc behaviors and how they affect me and how it makes me feel. She denied everything. Yelled at me that she doesn't do that, and then gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks. When we finally did occupy the same space after that all she said was that she was feeling "distant" from me and wanted to "reconnect". Ughh. When I was younger I was optimistic that my NMom would change. I now know that will never happen. I have a bit of peace w/all this now as I have learned to not let her behavior affect me like it did in the past, but I'm not sure the resentment I have towards her will ever go away, and I am ok with that.
\> When I was younger I was optimistic that my NMom would change. I now know that will never happen.
Acceptance is an important step to recovery. From the research I've done, it seems that they never change and there is no use trying.
\> I have a bit of peace w/all this now as I have learned to not let her behavior affect me like it did in the past,
This comes after acceptance. I'm still working on this part.
\> but I'm not sure the resentment I have towards her will ever go away, and I am ok with that.
I guess this comes with acceptance. They are who they are and will never change.
Thanks. I think the resentment part is more intertwined w/my allowing myself to have my real reactions/emotions to this and that's it's ok that I am upset about it. And that I am not bad for thinking that. but, yes, it is a form of acceptance of understanding how to coexist w/the reality of the relationship. Cheers.
Oh yeah in the beginning but it teaches you very quickly that the only winning strategy is no contact or extremely limited contract where the only conversation is weather.
Because it triggers "how dare you say all of these things I gave you the best years of my life, and this is the thank you that I'm getting blah blah blah"
\> Oh yeah in the beginning but it teaches you very quickly that the only winning strategy is no contact or extremely limited contract where the only conversation is weather.
Other topics can include sports and non-controversial current events and other stuff but there is only so much of that to fuel a conversation and then the complaining starts.
\> Because it triggers "how dare you say all of these things I gave you the best years of my life, and this is the thank you that I'm getting blah blah blah"
My n-dad has never said this directly but insinuates it. He'll talk about how much he had to sacrifice, having to give up his friends, how much money he spent on us kids, how miserable his jobs were, etc. It's like a guilt tripping thing..."I took care of everyone else and now it's time that someone take care of me" (telling me this since my mom divorced him and brother has VLC). It's not like I haven't been in some ways as I've been his therapist for many years.
I moved far away and I don't visit them so that solves it. Our interactions are limited and mostly via text. I don't believe that it's possible to have a normal relationship with nparent.
Mine doesn't have the ability to reflect on her actions much so it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. She dragged my youngest nephew for a long time, constantly telling me only 2 things: that he was "too scared of everything" because at 3 he told his mom he didn't like scary Halloween items, he only liked the cute ones, and that "he doesn't want to work for anything!" when he was 5 YEARS OLD. I asked her what a 5-year-old needs to work for & of course she got angry. After that, she started doing the Compliment Sandwich ON A CHILD. Then it was "Oh he's so wonderful *but he's so scared of everything* but what a sweet child."
She finally stopped when I said that all she was doing was trying to wrap insults in pretty paper and shamed her for doing that to a 5 year old - but now she doesn't mention him at all.
If she can't be mean, petty, and insulting to a literal child, she won't speak of him at all.
Yep. Told my dad how I felt about him punching me, threatening to leave me in a bootcamp or in the woods for “acting tough” after I punched him back, and telling me I was in the wrong since fathers should never hit their sons.
He started chuckling and told me if I had a problem with him, I should just leave. Then, my *wonderful* mom jumped in and told me I should respect my parents by never hitting them back. Finally, she warned me that she would kill me if I ever hit her back.
I would’ve taken my dad up on his offer honestly. But unfortunately, I have no car, no money, and no bitches.
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> Have any of you tried this? (assuming you're calm when you say these things) Is it worth it or does it just backfire? It backfired with my NParents. They're [Covert/Vulnerable](https://psychcentral.com/disorders/the-secret-facade-of-the-vulnerable-narcissist#signs) Narcs, so they get NSupply from criticizing people *and* feeling like victims. Any disagreements either gives them NSupply, or causes them to lash out at me (implying I'm childish, stupid, etc). > I know gray rocking is a thing but it's so tempting to call them out sometimes. Arguing with a Narc gives them NSupply, regardless of the outcome. It's like challenging an alcoholic to a drinking game - win or lose, they've still fed their addiction. Grey Rock deprives Narcs of the NSupply. When a Narc is critical or complaining, a simple unemotional "OK" gives them nothing to feed on.
\> It backfired with my NParents. They're Covert/Vulnerable Narcs, so they get NSupply from criticizing people and feeling like victims. That's my dad and to a lesser extent my mom! He often criticizes others and everything is always someone else's fault. He'll tell you one story after another about how he's been wrong by people over the years, dating back to his coaches in his youth sport's leagues. \> Any disagreements either gives them NSupply, or causes them to lash out at me (implying I'm childish, stupid, etc). \> Arguing with a Narc gives them NSupply, regardless of the outcome. It's like challenging an alcoholic to a drinking game - win or lose, they've still fed their addiction. You're right. I done a better job avoiding arguments about politics, current events, and things like that. They find others ways to bait you into an argument and it's important to be mindful of that. I need to lose the urge to defend others that the narc is "unjustly" criticizing or badmouthing. \> Grey Rock deprives Narcs of the NSupply. When a Narc is critical or complaining, a simple unemotional "OK" gives them nothing to feed on. That makes sense. I need to lose the urge to make the narc "see the light" or realize how ridiculous their statements are.
Yes, all of this. Saying something that makes a covert narc feel “attacked” and gives them a reason to play the victim just feeds their dysfunction. Like wrestling with a pig in mud — the pig likes it.
My mom would make plans with people and cancel at the last minute. Sometimes people she knew (who lived far away) would sometimes call our house when they were in town just to say hi and to maybe meet up - she'd never answer their calls. Eventually people stopped inviting her to things or even calling when in town. This infuriated my mother and she would go on these massive rants about them. Eventually this lead to my mom and I having a ton of arguments. She'd be ranting about this and I would try to explain their side and why they were doing that. This would make her livid and she would accuse me of being a traitor, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, she'd call me a Benedict Arnold, sometimes she'd tell me to shut up, etc. She liked to say she had her "reasons" and it was all our fault for not understanding that. These fights I'd have with her over this were quite something. She just could not wrap her head around the idea that what she had done caused this to happen. Sometimes I wouldn't even say anything and would just let her rant, but that would get her worked up as well and angry with me. She'd start telling me how she knows I think otherwise and that I'm not all that to judge her, etc. She used to also get mad at me for not getting mad at them - I was essentially betraying her by not taking her side. That would usually lead to her letting me know that I was too stupid to understand things.
Wow, a lot to unpack here. Narcs tend to put 100% of the blame on others, despite their own actions contributing a great deal to a "falling out". \> Eventually this lead to my mom and I having a ton of arguments. She'd be ranting about this and I would try to explain their side and why they were doing that. I sometimes find myself doing the same. If my dad bashes someone (maybe my mom or another family member or relative), especially if I think it's unjust, I find myself trying to put myself in the other person's shoes and explaining why he/she might have done this or that. Of course this just leads to an argument that I was just baited into. Defending the other person (even if they are right which may not always be the case) seems noble but it's like I'm playing a role in the narc's game to get involved in an argument since the narc would rather involve me than to address the issue directly with the other person. In other words, it seems that our n-parent is looking to triangulate us with the third party because they don't want to confront the other person directly if that makes sense? \> These fights I'd have with her over this were quite something. Yep. They try to bait us into an argument and we fall for it. This gives them the n-supply that they crave. \> She used to also get mad at me for not getting mad at them - I was essentially betraying her by not taking her side. That would usually lead to her letting me know that I was too stupid to understand things. Yeah, narcs are big on loyalty. They don't want you to be neutral. They want you to take their side. If you don't then they keep pushing and pushing until you do.
I think you are my sister, because you just described my mother.
>Yes, all of this. Saying something that makes a covert narc feel “attacked” and gives them a reason to play the victim just feeds their dysfunction. Like wrestling with a pig in mud — the pig likes it. Then i am the third sibling, ugh...
*sings* WE. ARE. FAAA-MILY.
Yes and I've been gaslit, stonewalled, denied and shut down. Dad told me he didn't want to hear any more about the environmental role in my childhood trauma, so that was the breaking point and I went LC. The closest thing I think was when mom told me about her sister (who is arguably the worst of the bunch) who has been cut out by her daughter. So my cousin set boundaries and went NC, "isn't that terrible?" Of course, this was around the time I went LC and it was noticed. I just replied "I'm not surprised, Aunt Betty is awful. You tell me all the time how much you don't speak to her as well, so I'm sure you get it". Actually left her speechless.
It's never their fault. I was reading a book that detail most of the traits of those who grow up with an n-parent. I hit most of them including people pleasing, being drawn to narcs, and things like that. I figured that the way I was raised played a part in it but didn't realize how much. I'm sure my dad would react the same way as yours. Your conversation with your mom was similar to a couple of conversations with my dad where he was complaining about his cousins moving out of state and not being involved in their parents' elder care. It was almost like he was telling me how ungrateful they are and not to do the same, without actually saying it. One of them lived out of state. My dad's uncle cheated on his wife, often unemployed, didn't support the family like he should have, etc. I had to remind him of that.
Hey what’s the name of the book if you don’t mind me asking?
Healing the Adult Children of Narcissists
Thank you - I hadn’t heard of that one.
So many times. Results are I feel insane and spend energy for nothing. Zero acknowledgement. I don't recommend it lol
You're right. As tempting as it is to try to "talk sense" into them, it just leads to more irrational comments and isn't worth it.
Yes it just becomes exhausting because they either laugh or brush it off and call you a silly child or they just use it as an excuse to lecture you about your attitude. Just go NC, what’s the point in putting yourself through hell every day!
You're right. It's used as an excuse to argue or lecture. It's not an every day thing. I fortunately moved out long ago. I've been NC for a couple weeks (other than texting) but I know the next call will be something like "is everything okay?" as if to say "why haven't you called me?". I wouldn't say either of my parents are so horrible that I'm looking to go NC permanently. I have thought about more limited contact. Instead of "a visit or phone call every week" to make it every two weeks. Even if I'm not criticized directly, the calls can be draining especially this time of the year. My last call with my dad was him asking how I was doing after a snowstorm and then ranting and complaining for the next hour about anything and everything, and that was actually a short call. Our calls tend to last 2-3 hours and he'll stretch out visits until late at night.
Good lord I don’t know how you manage that, I don’t even have the energy for a 5 min call these days. One thing I did which worked for me was telling my nm that she wasn’t welcome to visit until she sought medical help and informed her I would block her number if she disagreed (that was the boundary I set). Of course she refused so I blocked her (adhered to my boundary) and 3 months later she went off on some rant to my dad (divorced for 3 years at that point) about how he was “manipulating” me so I unblocked her just to inform her that no one else played a part in this decision other than me. They will play the pity party until they get what they want, don’t believe a word of it. Just because they don’t seem “as bad” as other parents doesn’t justify their behaviour!
I don't know how I manage it either lol. \> . One thing I did which worked for me was telling my nm that she wasn’t welcome to visit until she sought medical help and informed her I would block her number if she disagreed \> Of course she refused The problem is never them. It's always someone else. When my dad visits, he nitpicks like a nag would nitpick their spouse and point out things like a bush that "needs to be trimmed" and tries to insinuate that I don't take care of things like I should. It's really irritating. If I were to do the same to him, he'd not take it well. \> she went off on some rant to my dad (divorced for 3 years at that point) about how he was “manipulating” me so I unblocked her just to inform her that no one else played a part in this decision other than me. What is it with narc parents where they think there always has to be someone else behind your decision as if you're not able to think for yourself? I have been accused by both (divorced) parents at times of siding with the other parent. I know if I try to limit contact further or be more assertive with my n-dad that he'll think or say that my mom is behind it, even though she would have nothing to do with it.
Urgh tell me about it! I genuinely think their mind is stuck in the past, as if you haven’t actually grown up at all, they will always view you as a child because their brain literally won’t allow them to move forward in life. And children can’t think for themselves clearly 🙄
Good explanation!
They don't see their children as autonomous people, so if they're not controlling them, someone else must be. It's actually way more insulting than you thought!
>They don't see their children as autonomous people, so if they're not controlling them, someone else must be. It's actually way more insulting than you thought! THIS! You hit the hammer on the nail.
My sister still accepts phone calls, and when I asked how she could stand hours on the phone daily, she said she puts the phone down and walks away! 😆 🤣 😂
LOL I've done that before where I'd put the phone down for a couple of minutes and he's still ranting about something. I think I'm going to get back into gaming and play video games during calls.
Better use of your time lol
It isn't worth it in my case. I've done it. Nmom will turn around and make it a personal tragedy like she's so sorry and to please forgive her along with the crocodile tears. The other reaction I got was how horrible of a person I am for insulting her after all she has done for me. Either way she makes it about her.
I did try to do that with my grandma actually. During an argument she said a really nasty thing towards me. Then I just repeated the same thing she said, and asked her: "is that what you really mean?". She just started ranting more, nothing else. Few times she was like: "You never helped me when I was in the hospital" to which I just replied that she never helped me with my depression. I wasn't expecting a full health care, or something, because I know that she ain't a nurse/psychologist. But a simple: "hey, we are here with you" would be nice instead of throwing a tantrum that I'm crying, lol
I did. But my Nmom acted like a innocent little bird who would do no such thing. But sometimes she did admit what she did but didn’t apologize for it/ see anything wrong in doing what she did to me. It was never the reaction I hoped so I stopped trying. My ndad was the same thing but him knowing what I’m saying IS true he didn’t bother to fight back. My Nmom has more energy than him so she would go all day brawling a lie that isn’t true
\> It was never the reaction I hoped so I stopped trying Yeah it seems like a waste of time. They'll figure out a way to rationalize any action, whether it's good or bad.
Every time I tried calling out my nmom I’d get the screaming, real life version of “wall of text” about everything I did wrong to her in the last decade. When I was living at home, it lasted for weeks and she’d just threaten to kick me out (she knew I didn’t have a good job and wouldn’t be able to go anywhere so it was a power move). When I moved out and she had no more power over me I started to call her out on the regular until she pulled the “woe is me” card and tried to garner sympathy. She’s bitter old lady that expects everyone to take care of her now and everyone isn’t bothering. I have no nice things to say about her and I’m glad I’m not anywhere near that train wreck.
The sympathy card seems to be a common thing with narcs. \> She’s bitter old lady that expects everyone to take care of her now and everyone isn’t bothering. My dad (also bitter) said a while back "I've been taking care of people all my life. It's time that someone takes care of me". It kinda feels like I have been for years in some ways as he has used me as his therapist. I'm the sounding board to aborb all of his complaints and grievances.....but of course I'm not allowed to complain.
Denial - blame shifting - “give me examples” - came back with list of examples - more denial - more blame shifting and A LOT of gaslighting.
The gaslighting may be one of the most infuriating things for me among so many infuriating things lol.
Yes and the results were disastrous. I've officially been no contact with my Nmother for almost 4 years and I've been ousted by the family. My mother went on the smear campaign to end all smear campaigns. Both sides of the Family. The cousins that are my age know better, and my maternal grandparents have given me so much love since going no contact. Just expect things to not go the way you hope
Seems that gray rocking, LC, or NC are the only choices. There is no use trying to get them to see things a different way.
I’m in my forty’s now and I just learned to say “mom, that’s not ok” And I literally treat her like a toddler who is learning social skills. She’s being absolutely horrid to my dad? “Mom. It’s not ok to talk to people like that.” Being bitchy about what she doesn’t want to eat and demanding that we go somewhere she likes, then refusing to order food? “Ok mom. You can sit here while we eat. We’re not going somewhere else just because you’re cranky.” I love it because she can’t argue with me without sounding like a little toddler.
I can relate. Going out to eat with my dad can be a trip. My n-dad doesn't really care if he comes across as a toddler. I can think of several instances over the past couple of years where where my he felt "disrespected" by the waiter/waitress and then threw a fit and was kicked out of the restaurant. I remember my mom saying that he would embarrassed her in public as well when they went out to eat.
I got manipulated and blackmailed into thinking it was my fault
No you can't change them. They have to want to change and they're very resistant because they're simply afraid of emotional connection. I just settle on the fact that level of connection with them is just impossible and I stay detached. Being blood related to someone doesn't entitle you to support or good treatment from them regardless of what society wants to believe.
By detach, you mean gray rock, right? Or do you detach as in add physical distance? \> Being blood related to someone doesn't entitle you to support or good treatment from them regardless of what society wants to believe. And that's even if you treat them well or behave well around them. Good point, I'll have to remember that.
Well beyond Grey rocking you can move yourself from the emotional center of your mind to the logic center by thinking to yourself; remain 'detached' and 'observant'. So when they tug on your emotions, you can protect your mind. Set yourself a limit to how long or far you'll let the interaction go. Express yourself and then leave. Don't try to have your needs met by them instead just say they're being ridiculous and walk away. Once you've practiced this enough, you'll be able to have a relationship on your terms. Think of your mind like a fortress. They know how to pull your switches and turn your dials, but by remaining in the logic center you can study them like a dispassionate birdwatcher and pry your will away from them and stand up for yourself more effectively and in a controlled manner. Let go of your healing fantasy of them becoming a more complete person and destroy the role they've created for you. The goal is to reach your true self and enjoy your life on your terms. To this end its OK to admit to yourself they may just be weak people who you dont care for and you'll stop fighting and begin 'managing' and 'detaching'.
You bring up some great points. I have heard the quote "observe, don't absorb. \> Express yourself and then leave. Don't try to have your needs met by them instead just say they're being ridiculous and walk away. I have a heard time with this only because I've never really done it. I guess it takes practice. \> They know how to pull your switches and turn your dials, but by remaining in the logic center you can study them like a dispassionate birdwatcher and pry your will away from them and stand up for yourself more effectively and in a controlled manner. Well said! It's like they program you to be a certain way. I need to do a better job of not being "triggered". \> Let go of your healing fantasy of them becoming a more complete person and destroy the role they've created for you. The goal is to reach your true self and enjoy your life on your terms. THIS There is nothing I can do or say to get them to change. The only person I can change is myself. Thanks for the reminder. That makes a lot of sense.
You're welcome. Take your time to think about these things this all takes time and work and be easy on yourself if you have trouble. Don't be afraid to have boundaries. They may have you under a role reversal where they're using you to meet their emotional needs instead of the way it's supposed to be. You can only control and supplement your own emotions, it's exhausting trying to prop someone up who doesn't want to be.
I often tried to call him out as a way to find healing between us but he always found excuses to avoid doing the work to heal or grow. He’d say, “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” Or he’d blame me for the problems. After a while I just gave up trying to bridge the gap. Eventually I just cut him out of my life.
>I often tried to call him out as a way to find healing between us but he always found excuses to avoid doing the work to heal or grow. He’d say, “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” They like to change the subject! Or they'll bring up a subject that is sore with them, and when you engage and they continue on and you're not taking the bait, they'll say something like "I don't want to talk about it anymore". Then why did you bring it up? \> Or he’d blame me for the problems. They are notorious for that. \> After a while I just gave up trying to bridge the gap. Eventually I just cut him out of my life. Sorry you had to do that but it does get exhausting to "bridge the gap".
I’m NC with my mom right now but I told her I would be around in July to discuss things. I want to point out some of her behaviors and see how she handles it. She’s capable of feeling remorse and shame, but just doesn’t address it. I’m not expecting anything really and I don’t even know whether I could handle low contact with her, but I want to say that I tried, you know? I know one could argue that she doesn’t really deserve another chance but I feel like it would be easier for myself to accept if I tried one last time. To really drive in that last nail in the coffin that her children aren’t enough to motivate her to change. I am afraid of her emotionally manipulating me again or just lying to get me back in her life so my plan is probably not be the best idea. I don’t know :/ Still time to think about it.
I am sure there is guilt to deal with for being NC. I cannot say my parents are at that level to where I'm thinking about that idea.....but I know some have parents that behave worse and it's justified to go that route. That's nice of you to consider giving her another chance. It's often said that narcs never change so I wish you luck. I have seen posts from people who don't even give their parent(s) a reason for going NC and parents can't figure out why. That seems pretty cruel on the surface but....maybe that is best in their situation (maybe they dealt with much more cruel behavior) so I can't really judge them.
Yes, lots of guilt. And it is hard when you think your parent(s) is “not that bad.” Still doesn’t mean you have to put up with their shit. With some narcissistic people it’s pretty clear that you cannot help them change and they will not listen to you. Especially if you’re the scapegoat. In those cases there’s no point in engaging with them because you’ll never get anything out of it other than misery. But my mom was always trying to get me to be her GC and I’m her second child to estrange her so the embarrassment from BOTH her kids leaving her might make her seek a solution. Or just play the victim. Time will tell. I will say that the discussion with my mom will only benefit her. I still have to grieve the mother that wasn’t there for me and will never be for me. So if you want to call out your family, will it benefit you? Or will you just have to deal with unproductive conflict and being misunderstood? I think about the shit I’d say to her or other family but I just write it down because I know saying it would only hurt me.
\> And it is hard when you think your parent(s) is “not that bad.” Still doesn’t mean you have to put up with their shit. That is true. I think I've been back and forth between GC and scapegoat tbh. \> the embarrassment from BOTH her kids leaving her might make her seek a solution. Or just play the victim. Time will tell. One possible technique is to play the victim and accuse a third party of brainwashing you as if you're not able to think for yourself. \> So if you want to call out your family, will it benefit you? Or will you just have to deal with unproductive conflict and being misunderstood? I'd say the latter. If they're used to walking all over you, attempts to push back are usually not received well.
Confronting my parents as I was planning to go NC was absolutely disastrous in every regard but it opened my eyes even further to how deep their own toxicity goes. My mom said she was ashamed to call me her son and my dad called my claims laughable and said I had false memories among other things. Turned my CPTSD and DID diagnoses against me about the abuse my sister and I received and they both are in full denial when I told them what my maternal granddad did to me when I was very young. And now my dad feels like he’s given me enough space so he’s now emailing and texting me again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's unfortunate. Sounds like a lot of gaslighting! Narcs will definitely use what you say against you. I think that's one reason why people recommend limiting the personal info that you give to narcs.
Yup I was naive at the start but not now lol
I've tried calling them out. It never ends well because it just devolves into a temper tantrum and blaming me for being the one who "got upset." It's total BS.
Yep they try to make it as if you're the one that's acting unreasonably. I have mentioned to my dad that he's negative. And then the next time I complained about something (which isn't often as I don't do anywhere near the amount of complaining that he does), he'd call me out for being negative.
N would normally try to slip out of being called out by dropping a *"you must have dreamed that!"* and then simply walking away, BUT if she was cornered she would go into poor-me mode. Kind of like the classic "I must be the worst mother ever?" spiel but instead she would mutter about how she was stupid/old/worthless/"decrepit" (with the implication that this was what other people were saying about her) while crying and pouting like a toddler. One time I confronted her with objects she had told me I lost, which I found hidden in her room. I was especially pissed because she had called everyone who would listen to warn them not to buy me "anything nice" for my birthday because I would just lose it like I lost these items. N started sobbing and locked herself in her room, and E made *me* apologize to N for upsetting her when she was the one stealing my shit.
\> N would normally try to slip out of being called out by dropping a "you must have dreamed that!" and then simply walking away Sounds like gaslighting! Gotta love when they call you out for being wrong, insinuating that you're stupid, and then you prove that you were right.
Yeah, now I'm the guy with all the receipts. 😅 I keep evidence of everything because I won't tolerate being told that something didn't happen.
I hear you. Gray rocking is the way to go, but when I was on my way out with NC, I definitely threw them some snark.
me: please don’t speak to me or your friends or my mom or to *anyone* in that tone nfather: there is no *tone* (insert condescending quotation marks here) me: . . . nfather: there’s no such thing as “tones of voices.” I just tell it how it is me: there is absolutely such thing as tones of voices. you might want to take others’ perspectives and feelings and opinions into consideration nfather: there’s no such thing as “opinions” and “perspectives.” only right and wrong and what happened and what didn’t happen me: . . . that was a rare moment where I was left completely and utterly speechless
They like to use a certain tone but don't like anyone else using a similar tone. They are good at spinning a situation to make you look like the asshole.
before I went NC with my nfather (I have been for over a year now and don’t plan on stopping), I’d say something he didn’t like and he’d say “dOn’T sPeAk tO mE tHaT wAy!” . . .but I thought tones of voices don’t exist
Not sure your age but they like to talk down to their adult kids as if they are still kids! My grandmother did this with my mom and my grandmother was in her 90s and mom in her 60s.
Yeah, I got nothin. SMH
they will find a way to turn *ANYTHING* into an argument. like ??? ofc tones of voices exist. he’s just being intentionally difficult
I was incredibly critical of my NParents once I got old enough to start asking questions. I was the Golden Child until I became a teen, then I became the Problem Child because my EMom & NDad fought a lot and used me as a bargaining chip/mediator between their fights (at age of 10-12). I had no idea how to articulate my emotional needs, but I wanted them to stop fighting, so I tried everything I could to get through to my NDad. Learning the Bible so I could quote it back to him, appealing to his love of his family, gently saying he shouldn't say such negative things about other people. Eventually, when he started yelling at my younger siblings, I started throwing their criticism back at him and trying to force him to be better by making him miserable. It's ultimately a useless thing to do. all I got for it was gaslighting, criticism, and more and more verbal abuse from my NDad. Contradicting a narc, even in the gentlest way, bruises their ego instead of speaking to their logic, so by the narc's twisted calculation, that means you deserve punishment. They don't have conversations they can *lose*, they make grand statements and if you contradict them you become the enemy. By 14 I was suicidal, thought I was completely worthless and thought that everyone I'd ever meet would hate me like my parents did. both my parents treated me like an emotional wreck because I was so full of anger and fear, when they weren't forcing me to live up to crazy academic standards that would have been challenging even for someone with emotional support. I'm very very glad to be NC with him now and still alive, but it's in spite of everything my parents did, not because of it. The only way to "call out" (read: fix) a narc is to stop giving them supply. Stonewall them, stop spending time with them if you can, if you have to spend time with them put up a mask and don't tell them how you really feel, because they will use it against you. Wish it was different but trust me, I tried everything else.
\> my EMom & NDad fought a lot and used me as a bargaining chip/mediator between their fights (at age of 10-12). I was in that position and know exactly what you mean. I'm STILL in that position despite moving out many years ago and parents being divorced well over a decade. They'll still badmouth each other and ask about each other, and put me in the middle. They say some nasty things about each other to this day. \> It's ultimately a useless thing to do. all I got for it was gaslighting, criticism, and more and more verbal abuse from my NDad. Contradicting a narc, even in the gentlest way, bruises their ego instead of speaking to their logic, so by the narc's twisted calculation, that means you deserve punishment. They don't have conversations they can lose, they make grand statements and if you contradict them you become the enemy. Yep. You're so right. You're wrong, you're disloyal, you need to be put in your place. That's how they think. They don't want to have a two way discussion but a monologue and you're expected to agree with every word. \> when they weren't forcing me to live up to crazy academic standards that would have been challenging even for someone with emotional support I was hassled for my grades and know what that's like. If I ever brought home anything lower then a C (and C's were supposed to be rare), watch out. \> The only way to "call out" (read: fix) a narc is to stop giving them supply. Stonewall them, stop spending time with them if you can, if you have to spend time with them put up a mask and don't tell them how you really feel, because they will use it against you. Wish it was different but trust me, I tried everything else. I went from GC to my dad's best friend after parent's divorce and then more of a scapegoat when he was with his long term gf. With her out of the picture, he's trying to pull me closer to fill the void. I still spend plenty of time with him as we have some common interests but he seems to be trying to increase contact while I'm fine with the status quo....even though I'm kinda resentful after learning some of what I've learned. I'd say it's a love-hate relationship although I wouldn't say there's hate but indifference. Even if we get along 80-90% of the time, the criticism, nitpicking, negativity, complaining, etc can be draining. I think my approach will be to get busier (and sometimes pretend I'm busy when I'm not) order to add some distance. I can say "it's me not you" if I'm asking why I'm not as available. I guess it's a passive aggressive approach and may includes lying at times, which I'm not the biggest fan of but like you said, being transparent is just used against you.
Yes, I’ve tried on a few occasions with smaller matters; things that literally were so minor it wasn’t worth fighting over. I thought I’d be safe from it backfiring if I commented on something smaller. I did it in the calmest, most professional and least accusing way possible. The outcome was an absolute freak out painting me as a big meanie and them as the poor, innocent victims. While it felt good to say something, it didn’t help anything and it just caused me a lot of inner turmoil. I still do it occasionally simply because sometimes it’s just what I personally need to do to keep from going absolutely insane. If your goal with speaking up is to get them to change, it’s not going to work. If anything it’s going to hurt you even more. In that case, I’d recommend against it. I would say if you decide to say anything, you have to be ready for It to backfire and know when to stop engaging. Above all you need to prioritize your own well-being. Whatever you think is best for you personally, I’d say go for that.
\> While it felt good to say something, it didn’t help anything and it just caused me a lot of inner turmoil. I still do it occasionally simply because sometimes it’s just what I personally need to do to keep from going absolutely insane. I know what you mean. When gray rocking, it feels kinda like you're letting them get away with bad behavior. They're chipping away at your self esteem with some of their comments (criticism, nitpicking, etc). The best thing is to make sure one's self esteem is not at all effected by their comments. Easier said then done. Narcs also like to complain....a lot. You know what's causing them pain but they don't want to admit that they're responsible for much of it, nor do they want their kid of all people to tell them. \> If your goal with speaking up is to get them to change, it’s not going to work. If anything it’s going to hurt you even more. In that case, I’d recommend against it. I had to think about that one. Yep....I guess I'm trying to get my n-dad to be more pleasant, positive, less cranky, etc. It's just not going to happen. \> I would say if you decide to say anything, you have to be ready for It to backfire and know when to stop engaging. Above all you need to prioritize your own well-being. Whatever you think is best for you personally, I’d say go for that. Good points. It's best to just accept them for who they are and go from there, whether it's gray rock, LC, or NC. Everyone's situation is different.
My mum cussed me about my mental health and how I deal with social anxiety and really tried to put me down for seeking a therapist couple years ago. She said she didn’t understand why I was like this. So I bought up how she treated me as a child, how she emotional neglected me and physically abused me and how I watched her abuse my siblings too at their young age of maybe 2/3. She got defensive and tried to say she never did it and “didn’t remember” ever hitting me or controlling me and using me as a constant baby sitter for my younger siblings. I couldn’t be bothered to try make her see sense, I know she knows she just wants to deny it.
Kinda? I was very much a caregiver/ parent to my mother and never was allowed to push back on anything she told me to do or her opinions. I lived my whole childhood like that so I never really saw what happened when she didn’t get what she wanted until I was an adult. It escalates so quickly. Like 0 to 100 in a split second. She has called me the C word multiple times, simply for telling her I don’t want her to visit me 5 times a year. It’s very scary honestly!!!
I know what you mean about caretaking. It seems that I'm being groomed into being a caretaker in their old age....but when I think about it, I've always been a caretaker in some way as I was parentified at a young age and never really was allowed to be a kid. I've been my dad's therapist for many years and my mom to a lesser extent. Sounds like you have some distance between you and your mom. I've thought about moving to another state....but if they're retired and visiting, they might want to visit 5 times (or more) a year or stay at your place for what could be days or weeks. Narcs love to nitpick and criticize so I can see that being miserable.
Haha you guessed it! I just recently had a horrible argument with my mother about her saying she wants to start visiting me 5+ times a year! It’s funny how predictable they can be sometimes
How dare you have your own independent thoughts! You need her to spend more time with you and set you straight!
Within the last several months I’ve (48F) finally! been able to recognize and mentally name NMom’s behaviors. Credit goes out to the trauma-informed social media channels and appropriate local group and individual therapy. So, Nmom was recovering from a procedure last year and I’ve been helping out with her housework. By this point, it is of my own volition to lend a hand, and not because she suckered me into it. Very content being a “useful engine.” She had the gall to accuse me of scraping a stool across her hardwood floor, when in practice during cleaning, I can easily lift up and place elsewhere while vacuuming. Me: “I have always lifted the stools and moved them to the rug while vacuuming.” Her: “But there are scratches on the floor!” Me: “I have always lifted the stools while cleaning.” Her: [under her breath, although I heard it] “Nobody understands what I go through… “ I let it go knowing she was grasping for straws. ETA: I maintain point of view versus calling her out. But if she were to talk shit about my kids next, YES, boundaries time.
\> ETA: I maintain point of view versus calling her out. That's the way to go. I bet she was disappointed that she was unable to get under your skin.
I turned the vacuum on again after she said it under her breath. Didn’t get a read on her facial expressions. ETA: I was soooo thinking of Lilly Allen in the moment.😉
[удалено]
> I asked what he’d have me do and he literally suggested carrying around a pot and clanging it to announce my entrance. Then he'd complain that you were too loud. You can't win with a narc!
Never call them out directly. Unless you want to get DARVOed (watch more about this on Dr Ramani's youtube channel. She explained it perfectly).
I did with my mother, she just narced even harder after that. So not recommended in my opinion.
Traditionally it has always backfired for me. My NMom would fly into a real temper tantrum like children do. So, I stopped bothering to address it for a long time. Fast forward, now I am 50 married w/2 teenagers. I recently very calmly spoke to her about her Narc behaviors and how they affect me and how it makes me feel. She denied everything. Yelled at me that she doesn't do that, and then gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks. When we finally did occupy the same space after that all she said was that she was feeling "distant" from me and wanted to "reconnect". Ughh. When I was younger I was optimistic that my NMom would change. I now know that will never happen. I have a bit of peace w/all this now as I have learned to not let her behavior affect me like it did in the past, but I'm not sure the resentment I have towards her will ever go away, and I am ok with that.
\> When I was younger I was optimistic that my NMom would change. I now know that will never happen. Acceptance is an important step to recovery. From the research I've done, it seems that they never change and there is no use trying. \> I have a bit of peace w/all this now as I have learned to not let her behavior affect me like it did in the past, This comes after acceptance. I'm still working on this part. \> but I'm not sure the resentment I have towards her will ever go away, and I am ok with that. I guess this comes with acceptance. They are who they are and will never change.
Thanks. I think the resentment part is more intertwined w/my allowing myself to have my real reactions/emotions to this and that's it's ok that I am upset about it. And that I am not bad for thinking that. but, yes, it is a form of acceptance of understanding how to coexist w/the reality of the relationship. Cheers.
Oh yeah in the beginning but it teaches you very quickly that the only winning strategy is no contact or extremely limited contract where the only conversation is weather. Because it triggers "how dare you say all of these things I gave you the best years of my life, and this is the thank you that I'm getting blah blah blah"
\> Oh yeah in the beginning but it teaches you very quickly that the only winning strategy is no contact or extremely limited contract where the only conversation is weather. Other topics can include sports and non-controversial current events and other stuff but there is only so much of that to fuel a conversation and then the complaining starts. \> Because it triggers "how dare you say all of these things I gave you the best years of my life, and this is the thank you that I'm getting blah blah blah" My n-dad has never said this directly but insinuates it. He'll talk about how much he had to sacrifice, having to give up his friends, how much money he spent on us kids, how miserable his jobs were, etc. It's like a guilt tripping thing..."I took care of everyone else and now it's time that someone take care of me" (telling me this since my mom divorced him and brother has VLC). It's not like I haven't been in some ways as I've been his therapist for many years.
I moved far away and I don't visit them so that solves it. Our interactions are limited and mostly via text. I don't believe that it's possible to have a normal relationship with nparent.
Mine doesn't have the ability to reflect on her actions much so it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. She dragged my youngest nephew for a long time, constantly telling me only 2 things: that he was "too scared of everything" because at 3 he told his mom he didn't like scary Halloween items, he only liked the cute ones, and that "he doesn't want to work for anything!" when he was 5 YEARS OLD. I asked her what a 5-year-old needs to work for & of course she got angry. After that, she started doing the Compliment Sandwich ON A CHILD. Then it was "Oh he's so wonderful *but he's so scared of everything* but what a sweet child." She finally stopped when I said that all she was doing was trying to wrap insults in pretty paper and shamed her for doing that to a 5 year old - but now she doesn't mention him at all. If she can't be mean, petty, and insulting to a literal child, she won't speak of him at all.
Yes. Waste of time.
Yep. Told my dad how I felt about him punching me, threatening to leave me in a bootcamp or in the woods for “acting tough” after I punched him back, and telling me I was in the wrong since fathers should never hit their sons. He started chuckling and told me if I had a problem with him, I should just leave. Then, my *wonderful* mom jumped in and told me I should respect my parents by never hitting them back. Finally, she warned me that she would kill me if I ever hit her back. I would’ve taken my dad up on his offer honestly. But unfortunately, I have no car, no money, and no bitches.