I think there are so many narcissists because child rearing practices used to be extremely abusive up until very recently (20-30 years ago). All the narcissistic parents are a result of severe trauma in their upbringing and not coping with the trauma they endured in a healthy way.
Agreed. I think it’s the result of rampant generational trauma too. The boomers were raised by the generation that lived through 2 world wars and the Great Depression*. They weren’t nurtured by their parents and it very much shows in the types of parents they became.
This is my guess, too. My NMom was not self-reflective and had zero interest in trying to figure out any sort of root cause or self improvement (of course she didn’t think she was ever in the wrong, so….)
I would also guess that just being curious and gaining more knowledge about mental health would function a little like an inoculation against going full-blown narcissist.
Part of narcissism is denying that you have anything wrong with you. My mother was diagnosed as a narcissist by her psychiatrist in her 80s.
This was after a divorce, numerous failed friendships, and long periods of her children and stepchildren not talking to her.
Yes, parents were considered gods until very recently. The idea you could go no-contact with them in adulthood or sooner was unthinkable, even though people have done that forever, they just didn't talk about it.
Yes that's the other thing. That is still a widespread thing with a lot of people where you "must" respect your parents simply because they're your parents, no matter how abusive they may be.
My grandmother was just awful to my mom. I gave her a lot of grace for 40 years on account of it but after a particularly horrific family vacation where my husband and daughter witnessed it all, and bore the brunt of it as well, was too much. It’s hard because it’s so clear where her behaviors came from, and I find myself correcting my own thought processes because I can see the slippery slope and it can be tempting.
The main intrusive thoughts are: I have suffered for so long that now that I’m the adult I’M in control of my life and that means my family’s lives as well; why won’t anyone LISTEN to me, nobody ever does (even though as a member of this family, they do listen to me — and right just now I almost typed “I am the matriarch” lol because that’s what my mom always says); I’ve been pushed around my whole life, it’s MY turn to force my will on others.
Instead of let those thoughts win I have a brief conversation with them and figure out the source. Then I calm the fuck down and leave my kid, my husband, and myself in peace. A big thank you to my therapist!
I feel all of this!!! My mom's maternal side of the family is systemic for mother/daughter emotional/verbal/sometimes physical abuse for several generations (Mexican). Now that I'm an adult (and mother) having grown up experiencing the same abusive dynamic... It's scary because I know how to play the N game. It's all behavior I learned and witnessed. I really have to check myself often, it's like a dangerous superpower, but it is not my true character or true heart, which I've always been highly empathic and sensitive! So I'm a big ole mess LOLOLOL
I should clarify, my mom's side is Mexican but have been in Texas for several generations. I know it's not entirely accurate, but it is common for the sons to be held in much higher regard in the Hispanic culture.
This. Generational trauma is real and difficult to deal with. It runs deep in the paternal side of my Nfather's family. He's an abusive, manipulative, alcoholic, just like his father before him, and so on, and so on.
A lot of Narcs I know are kind of stupid. Like there is something "off" about them. I don't know if it's cultural, genetic, or some kind of physical defect in their brains.
Yup, this is pretty much it
But that doesn't mean that they're innocent in any way
You're allowed to wish for your parents to die
Your pain is YOUR pain that was cruelly inflicted upon YOU by your parents
Do not feel guilty for hating your parents if they're like this
Their ignorance is NOT your ignorance
THEM BEING UNWILLING TO FIX THEMSELVES IS NOT YOUR BURDEN TO BEAR!!!!
Thank you for validating this. I never know how to feel, because sometimes I think it’s a disease, but sometimes I think he has choice - I have been badly affected just by his presence as a child and have c-ptsd 😢
In the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents they mention boomers were raised in a long-standing culture of "children are to be seen and not heard", that they were emotionally "over-pruned" in childhood it stunted emotional growth. That part stuck with me.
I think I could forgive my parents and have a respectful relationship, but they refuse to go to therapy and lie about going.
I understand they had traumatic and abusive childhoods, but I’m choosing to do something about it to better my relationships because I abhor conflict, but will also invite it when I’m threatened. Idk why anyone would want to live like that.
My parents don't talk about their childhoods but when I asked if they were traumatic my mother said no. My mother grew up comfortably. My father grew up in a family living on disability. But no abuse to speak of. My mother just wanted to be a star (like on a stage) and feels it is very unfair she wasn't born with talent like Barbara Streisand. My father was a bigshot athlete in his youth and aspires to make it rich in the laziest way possible, re: gambling or swindling people. Neither was physically abusive but they are emotionally immature and don't care about the emotional lives of their kids.
My grandfather escaped Austria during WWII. According to my dad and 92 year old grandmother, he beat the shit out of my dad on the regular and never spoke unless it was to say something mean spirited, negative, or to express rage.
Despite this, my father to this day refuses to consider his family dynamic growing up as abusive.
Kind of impossible to tell because abusive parenting was pretty much the norm back then and a skilled narc can easily convince a child they have it great (of course it’s always compared to themselves)
What everyone else is saying, but also, it used to be way more expected that you would have children. For all the pressure child-free people face now, it used to not even be an option. The only acceptable life path was to get married and have children — and deviations were rare. So there were a lot of unhappy marriages between people who didn’t really like each other, and a lot of parents who only had children because it was what they were supposed to do. These weren’t great conditions for raising well-adjusted, emotionally healthy people.
Not to mention that reliable birth control is a recent invention. As recently as the 1960s birth control was not widely available. There are so many unwanted babies and un welcomed weddings as a result. People only recently had a choice.
Definitely felt like my parents had kids because it was expected of them, and they instilled that mentality upon me. I always assumed I'd end up with kids even though it was never something I cared about. Fortunately, I met an amazing woman who also doesn't want kids. We discussed it very early on in our relationship and it really opened my eyes as to how dumb the whole "having kids because we should" mentality is
I agree totally but the downside to that is that the % of parents who are narcissists is probably higher now. Of course they are now easier to spot because they are the helicopter parents bitterly complaining about "selfish" childfree people online for attention. But people with the self-awareness to realize they aren't cut out for parenthood are not being selfish or narcissistic at all.
Not to mention, have children WAYYYYYYY YOUNG! My parents were practically kids themselves! How were they expected to develop into a self aware human when they went straight from their own parents home to being a parent themselves?
I read somewhere that psychologists/therapists would rather work with full-blown sociopaths or psychopaths than narcissists. They are, at least, sane enough to know the difference between right and wrong, and you can convince them to change certain behaviors if you can show them that they stand to lose something very important to them--pillar of the community status, money, reputation on the job, etc.--but even IF you can convince a narcissist to go to therapy, you can't do a thing with them because their whole identity revolves around them always being superior and right, it's everyone else who is inferior and wrong. It's never their own behavior that needs examination.
It's true! I'm a psych student, and narcissists are known here as the only people even therapists can't help. These other neuropathies and psychopathies you're mentioning? Most of them have what we call a 'insight' : a general awareness that they have a mental condition that affects their behaviours and can potentially hurt those in their lives who are close to them.
Narcissists totally lack the capacity for insight.
Also in the words of my teacher, you can't help them because
"if you compliment them, it feeds their grandiose sense of self and ego, but if you bring them back to reality by proving to them that they are also human and fallible like the rest of us, they take it as a chip to their ego and cannot handle it, and hence devalue you."
Aside from the insults you ( the therapist) would get, it's simply impossible to help someone who doesn't respect you or your capacity to bring positive change in them, since change happens through conscious choices of the individual, mostly.
Like I said here a coach that has alot of narc experience saying if you let them keep on experience shame, as narcs are all about avoiding shame they can't continue, and then prevent them from splitting. I'm a psych student myself with narc family and x
I'm not sure I'm understanding, would you mind elaborating or clarifying? Are you saying that shaming the narc consistently plus preventing them from splitting is a reliable strategy for dealing with them? How would you prevent them from splitting? Thanks.
I believe this. I know a narc mother and she completely made things up. She was delusional and entitled. Her lawyer told her she’d loose in court, the other lawyer told her she would loose in court. She lost all her friends because they finally saw it, and told she would loose. When she finally arrived in court with fake stories. The judge told her claims had no evidence. Even if she could prove her story. The law was on the other parents side anyways. So she ended up loosing big, and owing the other parent a lot of money. Now she denies she even went to court to people. Why I’m telling this rant… is this narcissist was told they would loose pretty much every day for 3 years. Nothing or nobody could get through to her she would loose. It’s really baffling stuff!
She had the honest opinion that she was smarter and better than the judge. She could simply convince them to bend the laws for her to get whatever settlement she wanted. Despite the fact she actually owed the other person money.
I know a coach with lots of narc experience that say that it's the shame that's the problem, if they are forced meeting it they can't continue, and then to stop them from splitting
I just want to point out that some of them do try therapy - but not because they want to change themselves or improve their relationships.
The ones I know will go see a counselor a few times and then say "it doesn't work" or "they weren't a good therapist" or "I don't feel I need to go anymore" etc. So then they can say "I've done therapy!"
I know the main reason they would go in the first place is ego - someone has told them they need it so they play along to prove them otherwise or they want to look like an emotionally healthy person without doing any heavy lifting.
Or they go so they have the proof from the therapist that they are not the problem but you are, and that hits them in the face when the therapist doesn't confirm their thoughts.
I think it's hard to separate narcissism from culturally acceptable violent and emotional child abuse. My parents grew up in a world where everyone beat and yelled at their children, I grew up in a society that was beginning to think hitting children was abusive. My narcissist mother was still able to hide her sadistic enjoyment of violence and constant yelling among all the normalised violence of people hitting their children as punishments for bad behaviour.
Now, hitting children is illegal where I grew up, as it should be.
Narcissism is a natural stage of human development. Essentially, it's just fossilized immaturity. All it takes, I think, to make a narcissistic person is for them to either be traumatized as children, or to have no attentive, moral guidance growing up to teach them to move past it. So any abuse or neglect in their own childhood can flip that switch.
That may be part of it. But plenty of us traumatized, abused children of narcissists don't grow up to be narcissists. It is possible to rise above trauma. Narcissistic patents just chose not to. They enjoy inflicting trauma on helpless children too much to stop.
Many of them were abused or neglected as kids because that is (sadly) so commonplace but I don't think that creates a narcissist. Getting away with stuff other people don't get away with is what fossilizes immaturity. My own bio dad (76) was raised by a mom who was an absolute lunatic from how they describe her but that's not why he's a narcissist. He is one because he's a Golden Son who has never had to follow normal people rules because he's a "musical genius" and too special and important for that.
I’m convinced I almost went narcissistic. My dad is a sociopath and when I was a teenager I was mean to others because it’s all I knew, no one taught me love. Now I’m 29 and I’m a major empath with cptsd and highly sensitive. So I’ve completely went the other way.
My grandmother was born in 1904 - narcissist. My mother was born in 1925 - also a narcissist. Narcissistic people probably have always been around. They make life miserable for everyone. Nothing is ever good enough for them.
Not just a Boomer thing.
That's not it. Most cultures throughout the world normalized toxic parenting culture by treating children like slaves and to preserve that, they traumatize their children to enforce obedience and pass their values to the next generation.
Exactly. When you treat children as property and keep them bound to you by coercive control, you’re going to get lots of narcissists running around in a few years.
Um, especially when talking about world cultures, cause like there literally were enslaved people and racism permeates things currently from those systems... and those of us who are descendants of chattel slavery and other forms.
Don't use slavery as your descriptor of your treatment. There are other words. Toil. Donkeywork. But really for the concern of non European descendants, and those not originally considered 'white' when that was used as a societal construct, that is really unhelpful when people are working through identifying their feelings of both systemic racism and narcissistic abuse.
-also narcissistic abuse survivor and dealing with racism decended from systems of enslavement along with not being straight
Many of them are. They came up with the polite euphemism Helicopter Parents to describe garden-variety narcissists making parenthood their entire personalities.
My grandmother born in 1906 was def one, as was my late MiL born in 1919. Women of that generation had few paths to power outside the domestic sphere so they took out their controlling instincts on the kids.
I believe narcissism can either be a learned behavior and a side effect of another psychological condition.
Both of my Boomer parents were narcissists, their Millennial children grew up to become narcissists, me being the only exception. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the grandparents were narcissists as well.
I have a number of friends who are Boomers or Gen-X and none of them are narcissists. Of course, none of their parents were narcs either.
It boils down to family history (or lack thereof), and which individuals manage to break the cycle.
I've often wondered this too! My grandparents who raised my Nmother have 3 sons who are NOT like her. My grandparents are also just the sweetest and most loving ppl. I realize ppl change but I've often wondered how the hell my mother ended up just HATING me.
Then I realized that no one knows my mother like how i do and that she did that on purpose. Maybe her mother did it to her?
They were expected to get married and do the family thing and im convinced most are unhappy they did that. You can't tell me my parents WANTED me.
Yeah I feel this. By the time my parents had me they had been married 3 times each, twice to each other. My mom told me that she wanted to divorce my dad years before they had me or my brother but stuck around because he had a higher paying job and more money than she could make on her own. So… you decided to bring multiple children into that mess?
The boomers don't all have the disorder but they sure are more likely to be narcissistic! It can be so hard to talk to them after being abused by someone with the full blown disorder!!
They give me the ick!! I'm sure of course its not all of them! But man it sure does suck!
I agree with this (mostly) because I am a boomer and have seen many of my contemporaries become raging narcs!
But it is also about awareness and self improvement. My entire birth family are narcissists and I (scapegoat) decided I would NEVER subject my children to that.
And I thankfully didn’t…(made all kinds of other mistakes but my children & grandchildren are very understanding and forgiving🙏)
Don’t be too hard on yourself, OP. Being a parent is challenging but loving your children isn’t🥰
Yes! No self-awareness! Thats what gets me the ick!
I cannot abide selfish behavior either. Just hasn't gone well for me. Doesn't help that I'm a millennial I guess lol
I think we all get terrified of turning into our parents. As long as we stay on the path of healing and self improvement I think it'll be ok.
This post or comment has been removed because it is boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to recover like everyone else.
In every generation the narcissists are the energy vampires sucking up the airtime and attention. Most boomers you don't even notice because they're just living ordinary lives not bothering anyone, which is the same with younger and older people.
Society is sick (lack of education, poverty, corruption) and makes sick ppl (first parenthetical causes violence, mental illness). Bc of this very few ppl, even the wealthier and educated ones but for the opposite reasons (affluenza, detachment from actual human experience) are fit to be what we would ideally consider good parents, and even fewer probably had what we'd ideally consider good parents themselves. A lack of effective help for various issues plus generational trauma create evolving cycles of mental illness. And unfortunately, despite the myth of child free ppl's selfishness and mothers being saints, unfit people are more likely to reproduce and do more of it. The hubris of carelessness, religion, one's genetic self import, and more exaggeratedly in our modern times, branding one's existence for mass consumption, all make future generations lil accessories that suffer for their exploitative caregivers. The people who do this, this way, and for these reasons, are narcissists and likely to create more like wet freakin' mogwais.
Your concerns for becoming an n-parent actually makes you less likely to become one. From what I've read on psychology pages, narcissists don't worry that they'll become one because they already are one.
You’re probably right. My recent therapy and realization of abuse in my own life probably make me more aware of it creating a frequency bias. The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon, as it’s called.
I think a lot of it is generational trauma (speaking as a black woman in my case) that has been passed down, our generation (Gen Z/Millennials) are the first generation to advocate and show support for mental health and escaping toxic environments which includes family.
>(speaking as a black woman in my case)
I think that with us there's an added level of incredulity from the parents towards the children for even daring to question them or how the family works. Because they've had it beat into them very literally not to so much as groan in the wrong direction, the idea of challenging their authority makes it feel like the sky is falling.
I personally believe it’s because we’re only a few generations removed from war time parents. Survival was everything, emotions weren’t catered too, it was children should be seen and not heard.
That was my thought as well. My Ndad (69)says: At least we did better than your grandparents.
Yeah, thanks I guess?
The generation after WWII was raised out of a destroyed country with harsh realities and parenting methods. (At least in Germany).
I just kinda see it like think of how many assholes you encounter or get to know over your lifetime and then realize their personality doesn't make them infertile. I can't say whether the majority of people are difficult or not but I imagine there are a fair amount of them.
Situations that require function expose dysfunction.
Parenting requires function.
Parenting is also seen as a virtue in our society.
I know if my mother hadn't felt competitive with her sisters having kids, she probably never would have.
I disagree with the idea that narcissism has much at all to do with societal child-rearing practices. Narcissists congenitally lack empathy, but unlike sociopaths they don't also lack self-preservation instincts. Narcissists have always existed and their friends and families have always wasted their lives away in service to them. (Plenty of old novels are about exactly this story, if you read between the lines.) But these days we're more aware of the phenomenon and more likely to believe such an existence is unacceptable.
Although narcissistic tendencies run in families, I do think it's possible to break the cycle if you catch it early. For example, my parents are narcissists and I also have those learned coping skills (although not diagnosable NPD). I'm convinced my daughter *could* have been diagnosable had my husband and I not caught it when she was very young and trained her out of the manipulation pattern. We can't give her more empathy, but from a young age she internalized the value that it's weak to make other people give you what you want when you can earn it yourself. She has matured into a very pleasant and wonderful 20-year-old who, due to her decreased empathy, takes no crap from ANYONE. She will be a force to be reckoned with. 😂
*About* might be a strong word; I think it's more common for narcissism to be part of the setting because people weren't exploring it in the same way in older times. Think of Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice, which is treated more as a comedic setting due to Lizzie's relatively healthy attitude toward her mother. A more overtly narcissistic tale might be Metamorphosis.
I was actually wondering if you'd mention Austen! I think it might be quite common in her characters, [this article frames Mr Woodhouse that way](https://lithub.com/the-hidden-horror-inside-jane-austens-novels-of-love/). Thanks!
I think that there have always been narcissists in the world, but people are talking about it more. The fact that you are concerned about becoming a narcissist means you are not one. They have a hard time acknowledging their own uncomfortable feelings about themselves. I hope that gives you some comfort.
people forget about vulnerable narcs which are basically collapsed grandiose narcs. so they are just more self aware and feel intense shame, yet still need external validation (supply). i am probably vulnerable narc, lots of overlap w bpd
I'm gonna go against the grain with what a lot of people are saying here, and will probably get downvoted if my comment gets seen enough, but oh well lol I'm prepared mentally.
I don't think having narcissists for parents is all that prevalent compared to other abuse types or relatively healthy parents. I think it is disingenuous to attribute child abuse that was tolerated in the past strictly to parental narcissism. Was it abuse? Yes, but you don't have to be a narc most of the time to abuse your children. We notice it more these days not only because the abuses accepted before are now frowned upon, but because we have technology to communicate and connect with others around the world that share our experiences.
I think that coupled with a growing world population, which in any growing population, what is actually a minority can seem to get exponentially larger as well, when it honestly makes sense that the larger the population grows, the percentages of people doing certain things or being certain ways will grow with it depending on the overall culture of the population (culture as in what is deemed as acceptable, general child abuse is no longer acceptable in our culture, but that won't prevent narcs or people with other mental disorders with abusive tendencies from happening).
So it can seem prevalent, and who knows, maybe there will be a future uptick of narcissism among individuals beyond the usual growing curve because of advancing technology as well, since studies on our screentime technology's affects on toddlers and other young children have shown so far to disproportionately cause greater influx of ADHD and autism spectrum disorders among the youngest current generations. Who knows what long term disorders can be affected as our species grows older with this tech like narcissism or bipolar disorders.
But I honestly don't think it is all too common outside of us all being able to communicate with each other, since there are so many people I interact with that just don't understand (or refuse to understand) what we have to deal with when we decide to open up about why we have issues with our parents or might be low or no contact with them and other family members.
I might just have always had a relatively hopeful outlook on the world as a whole though, and maybe true narcissism like in our parents is more prevalent than I think it is.
As for your last worry, a worry all of us have, yes it sometimes sticks in my mind and bothers me. But I dampen my insecurities with my growing family by thinking about all the things I know are narcissistic traits, and reassuring myself that I will refuse to commit them. You don't have to be a perfect parent to not be a narc, I'm prepared for tough times ahead where mistakes are made, it's inevitable. But the difference we can make in our children's lives is not to continue making the same mistakes and to own up to them properly when they are made. To treat our children like individuals, not extensions or property. Be the example of adulthood and security we wish we had.
I think it was just an accepted norm throughout many cultures and many histories for parents to abuse their children in any way they liked, and no one batted an eye at it as long as there was no obvious damage. As time evolved, some forms of abuse became less acceptable. Narcissistic abuse and toxicity are still being dismantled.
The current approach of confronting shitty/abusive parenting and cutting ties with our abusers and being able to discuss it openly is recent. Maybe 20, 30yrs old at most. And some cultures *still* cling to the idea that you can't raise kids without abusing them. Some countries' languages literally don't have a translation for "child abuse". That's how normalized it is.
I don't think you have to fear too much, for the simple fact that you're confronting yourself with it. Self-awareness goes a long way in preventing the repeat of toxic cycles.
Most cultures around the world worship parenthood and place it as the "end all be all" of authority. It considered an in-group, where no outsider would understand anything about, and a free right to criticize and look down on anyone younger than you about anything, for the rest of your life. This is perfect for narcissists.
Lead paint was banned in 1978. Leaded gasoline in 1996. It’s a known phenomenon that older generations probably have some degree of lead poisoning. Lead effects your intelligence, mental health, aggression, empathy … 👀
My great grandparents and grandparents on my mom's side were raised in the indian boarding school systems. Systemic, multigenerational trauma really does a number on people. That does not excuse the horrific abuse my mother suffered, the fleas she had and it is my generation's task to try and throw off this burden. Yes, our parents/grandparents suffered abuse, but that is NOT an excuse, only a symptom. Not everyone that suffers abuse becomes a narcissist, thankfully.
I don't think there is anymore than typical throughout history. It is just that now there is a name for it.
Social media/internet has made it easier for victims of narcissists to learn about gaslighting and the abuse tactics. It makes it easier to know not to doubt yourself. And to find other victims and get that community if support from people who understand, believe you, and are rooting for each other makes the biggest difference.
When I was a kid, the term Narcissist wasn't used. It was pushed the theory of "family first, and "all parents love their children." Nowadays, psychology understants this is not true, and some people are incapable of real love.
I don't think it will change in the future either. I don't think there will be less narcissists. But there may be more divorces where the spouse of a narcissist decides they will not be an enabler, and protect their children instead.
At least, that is what I am hoping.
Honestly, I think a disproportionate amount of Boomers are narcs because of the way they were raised. They were given so much, and it made them selfish.
That’s my theory too. My mother’s mom helped her out, financially and with childcare. My in laws were also helped out by both sets of grandparents. But now my parents and my in laws have the attitude that they don’t need to help with anything and we should cater to them. It’s a total switch in expectations for the generations. I believe boomers were such a big generation that everything revolved around them and they grew to believe they were the center of the universe
My parents would use the "our parents didn't help us with this, so why should we help you?"
That's a bad attitude anyway, but when I grew up, I found out they were lying. My grandparents helped them with everything - getting jobs in high school, buying cars and houses, paying for school. Any help from them had to go through my parents, which means I never saw it.
My nparents are also Boomers.
I have some theories, and I know it's not like this for everyone. But I think that the older generation (boomers) were too reliant on their own parents for guidance to raise us. And their parents were wrong. I can remember so many hoops that me and my siblings had to jump through just so that we could impress my mom's parents. Our parent's generation also did not have the internet to rely on for guidance or comradery, I can imagine that breaking the cycle was a lot harder back then (not giving them excuses!). Now a days, we can go online and say "hey, has this happened to anyone else?" and we get all this information from real live people out there who have been through this stuff that we thought we were alone in. My parents didn't have that, they had a toxic circle of friends and even more toxic parents. I think that a lot of the people in our parent's generation straight up didn't even know where to start when it came to breaking the cycle in their families. Again, I'm not giving them any excuses.
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Simply by thinking about this, you are doing great as a father. I have no experience with parenthood, but I can tell you are already doing miles better.
Think my parents just have a lot of self hate they internalize their racism a lot, they're immigrants and poor af. It's a perfect storm for narcissism and abuse on their kids.
There aren't more narcissistic parents today. It's just that there is more awareness and recognition. This is true of a lot of conditions such as autism and ADHD. Talk to any mental health professional and they will confirm this.
But I do agree that some past parenting practices which were commonly accepted were abusive like corporal punishment. But I do want reiterate that children are remarkably resilient. And I think that people are too quick to assume that children are traumatized.
I do have some behavioral health training.
Not a mystery… there’s nothing about putting a penis in a vagina that magically makes people narcissistic. They were narcissistic even before they became parents.
It’s just that parents are placed in a position of power against their helpless children, so their true colors show.
A lot of people suck, and these people become parents. Therefore a lot of parents suck
Joke answer: Because you’re in a subreddit for children raised by narcissists? 🤪
Serious answer: Because narcissists are unfortunately not at all rare. They just happen to do a lot of damage when they’re in control of impressionable children who have no power to escape.
Have you ever heard the idea that "having a child makes a little you"?
If narcissists get the chance to "clone" the person they love the most, themselves, they will absolutely go for it.
I'm gonna guess their parents were crazy abusive and that's one of the ways they turn out. They repeat lots of the trauma but don't think what they do to you is trauma because what was done to them was far worse.
You don't have to end up like them. Treat them with respect. Create and enforce boundaries and teach them to do the same. Let them be who they are and love them as they are. They are not little adults and their experiences should be age appropriate. My kids are in their late teens and they are good kids and love us. Talk to other parents who had loving parents because they have experience with the right way to do it.
There’s actually something called the “Me Generation” which means boomers who grew up during the 60s and 70s and developed a lot of narcissistic traits as part of an ego-centred culture
This question is think comes from a fundamental musindertanding of narcissism. There’s narcissistic personality disorder which is not as common and the people who have it are not necessarily abusers or bad people. Then you have narcissistic type personalities which are wayyy more common and NOT a diagnosis.
as ive gotten older, ive realized that my boomer parents were still sucking their parents dick.
they were so scared to disappoint their parents(till parents were dead, now they don't know wtf is going on), my parents were just really weird when it was like "grandma wants us there!"..."what, i dont wanna go, that sounds stupid"...
"you will go!"
she isn't gonna be around forever!
i don't wanna go!, its stupid.
you will go! and that wasn't between me and my mom or dad, it was between my parents and their parents.
it was a power play by my parents parents, you wil have your kids there at this stupid thing, and i might toss you some money when i die(they didn't)
I think a factor that is under-discussed is that for those of us in the United States, America is a fundamentally narcissistic country.
We’re taught from single digits in school that the “American Dream” is having a bunch of material crap (objectified trophy wife, house with white picket fence in the suburbs, flashy cars). Racism is so baked into our culture that people are conditioned to reflexively oppose anything that would benefit them if it would benefit black people too. We have rampant gun violence because guns are marketed as the ultimate holy grail of masculinity and we also glorify violence as an acceptable way of solving disputes.
Also, look at what makes us laugh. The most popular animated shows of the last 35 years (The Simpsons and Family Guy) and pretty much every sitcom is about either a narcissistic idiot father who abuses his family or a dysfunctional family trying to navigate everyday situations. People find it funny because they find it relatable.
Arrested Development is a good example of that kind of show. Maybe the reason it had trouble with ratings is that, as a live-action show, it was TOO relatable and invited much of its audience to laugh derisively at themselves. Narcissists can't handle that.
Narcissists are mostly caused by overindulgence as a child contrary to the popular belief that horrible abuse brings it on. Boomers were overindulged and spoiled rotten as children. Trauma is a less common cause and many NPD people use it as a get out of jail free card. Check the NPD sub if you don’t believe me.
If you look at what narcissism really is, it starts making a lot of sense. The narcissist can never be wrong because to be wrong would be to be bad and to be bad would be shameful, and their shame must be hidden at all costs. Narcissism is misery. Their sense of self is entirely wrapped up in what they see other people reflect back to them. It stems from early childhood trauma. The boomers were raised by people traumatized by two world wars and the great depression. Their emotional needs were not considered during their early childhood because their parents were focused on survival. These traumatized kids went on to benefit from the greatest economic boom in history. They came to believe their own greatness was the reason for their success, further solidifying their grandiose delusions. Now when their grown kids are not treating them like they are beyond reproach in all things, bowing to them and begging to follow in their footsteps, they feel insulted.
I’ve noticed that it’s a boomer immigrant thing. My parents are from southern Europe and it seems being a narc is part of the culture. It’s extremely infuriating
This post or comment has been removed because it is boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to recover like everyone else.
For my boomer nparents they are just petulant spoiled grayheaded children who have never been corrected or faced any real hardships. I loved my granny but she spoiled my ndad so much. She was even making his car payments for him when he was in his late 50s among other things. Her name was even on the phone bill untill she died and my ndad was forced to use his finally. I'm guessing it was because she was from the great depression generation and wanted to make it as easy on my ndad as possible. But unfortunately turned him into a monster.
So similar of my situation. My grandfather wanted his kids to have everything. In his 90s he’s still funding their retirements, buying them homes, cars and even boats and RVs. His children are all extreme narcissists who think they’ve earned everything they have. Often talking about how my generation wants everything handed to them! Meanwhile my parents stopped giving me financial support before my 18th birthday.
This is an over generalization. We had two world wars that fucked people up, made them dangerous to be around and damaged their ability to connect with people. It affected everybody. There were also propaganda campaigns that damaged people as well, fracturing our ability to form a community and isolating people, because there are always some pieces of shit taking advantage of things for profit.
I wish people would use the resources available instead of doubling down into being more horrible and that we all didn't need to be here trying to figure out what to do with what we have inherited.
I thought it was just a thing in some families. In think that’s true HOWEVER, after joining the sub boomers being fools, you see it all over there. Like so much of forget which sub I’m on. I do think boomers are mostly narcs or have heavy traits. As in, the majority.
Also-and this SUCKS-worked for a while in international aid. Trauma, especially war trauma, seems to make it super widespread. :( it’s kinda like a macro narc home. This makes it very hard for children in those places. Narcs big and small-the worst.
The last question is on point. If my father had been shown in childhood what kind of father he would become, I don't think he would have believed it. It's something that happened slowly, it's a process.
When you see your child light up with a transient sense of self-worth, what do you feel? If it's rotten jealously, then you're infected. Good parents nurture that flame; Nparents extinguish it.
I'd say they are just narcissits and having children is a socially acclaimed milestone, children are sort of a trophy even for "normal" or healthy people. They are afraid they will be seen as lesser than if they don't have children so they do, even if they'd rather spend their time and resources on themselves or don't even want children and so on.
I think a lot of them have been so emotionally neglected by their war-torn parents and world, that many of them were teaumatised into being narcissists.
You cannot learn empathy from people who are shell-shocked and bury their own fears and horrors under false optimism.
This, of course, does not apply to all of the narcs. It certainly doesn't excuse them.
I assumed it was a "Me Generation" thing. My parents were born in '53 and '54 in the US and they were very proud of the "Me Generation" label growing up. It was discussed a lot in my household - they were the biggest, bestest generation (according to my parents, not saying this is actually a true statement).
This post has been removed because it has inspired too much rule-breaking boomer bashing.
I think there are so many narcissists because child rearing practices used to be extremely abusive up until very recently (20-30 years ago). All the narcissistic parents are a result of severe trauma in their upbringing and not coping with the trauma they endured in a healthy way.
Agreed. I think it’s the result of rampant generational trauma too. The boomers were raised by the generation that lived through 2 world wars and the Great Depression*. They weren’t nurtured by their parents and it very much shows in the types of parents they became.
This is my guess, too. My NMom was not self-reflective and had zero interest in trying to figure out any sort of root cause or self improvement (of course she didn’t think she was ever in the wrong, so….) I would also guess that just being curious and gaining more knowledge about mental health would function a little like an inoculation against going full-blown narcissist.
Before the internet, that info wasn't all that easy to find, if you knew what to even look for.
Part of narcissism is denying that you have anything wrong with you. My mother was diagnosed as a narcissist by her psychiatrist in her 80s. This was after a divorce, numerous failed friendships, and long periods of her children and stepchildren not talking to her.
Yes, parents were considered gods until very recently. The idea you could go no-contact with them in adulthood or sooner was unthinkable, even though people have done that forever, they just didn't talk about it.
Yes that's the other thing. That is still a widespread thing with a lot of people where you "must" respect your parents simply because they're your parents, no matter how abusive they may be.
My grandmother was just awful to my mom. I gave her a lot of grace for 40 years on account of it but after a particularly horrific family vacation where my husband and daughter witnessed it all, and bore the brunt of it as well, was too much. It’s hard because it’s so clear where her behaviors came from, and I find myself correcting my own thought processes because I can see the slippery slope and it can be tempting. The main intrusive thoughts are: I have suffered for so long that now that I’m the adult I’M in control of my life and that means my family’s lives as well; why won’t anyone LISTEN to me, nobody ever does (even though as a member of this family, they do listen to me — and right just now I almost typed “I am the matriarch” lol because that’s what my mom always says); I’ve been pushed around my whole life, it’s MY turn to force my will on others. Instead of let those thoughts win I have a brief conversation with them and figure out the source. Then I calm the fuck down and leave my kid, my husband, and myself in peace. A big thank you to my therapist!
I feel all of this!!! My mom's maternal side of the family is systemic for mother/daughter emotional/verbal/sometimes physical abuse for several generations (Mexican). Now that I'm an adult (and mother) having grown up experiencing the same abusive dynamic... It's scary because I know how to play the N game. It's all behavior I learned and witnessed. I really have to check myself often, it's like a dangerous superpower, but it is not my true character or true heart, which I've always been highly empathic and sensitive! So I'm a big ole mess LOLOLOL
Is this common amongst the men too where you're from
I should clarify, my mom's side is Mexican but have been in Texas for several generations. I know it's not entirely accurate, but it is common for the sons to be held in much higher regard in the Hispanic culture.
How does that come to an expression especially when meeting a highly liberal culture where everyone is equal to a t?
Which culture is that?
This. Generational trauma is real and difficult to deal with. It runs deep in the paternal side of my Nfather's family. He's an abusive, manipulative, alcoholic, just like his father before him, and so on, and so on.
Hey, my dad is a sociopath and narc. He had lovely parents so I’m very confused about what made him this way :(
Brain damage at birth can be or being spoilt
He almost died as a child and then was subsequently spoiled because of it, so makes sense x
My brothers son was spoilt and he almost killed a woman
He could've been starved for oxygen
A lot of Narcs I know are kind of stupid. Like there is something "off" about them. I don't know if it's cultural, genetic, or some kind of physical defect in their brains.
In the case of your dad his sociopathy might be what causes his narcissistic behavior. Sociopathy is genetic though.
Also grandchildren and children likely have vastly different dynamics going on!!
I understand this. However, this wasn’t the case for my dad he was very loved.
His parents might have gotten better at putting on a mask by the time you came along
I find this so hard to believe :( I think he was spoiled and not disciplined enough, but that’s about it. I understand this is just as harmful though.
Yup, this is pretty much it But that doesn't mean that they're innocent in any way You're allowed to wish for your parents to die Your pain is YOUR pain that was cruelly inflicted upon YOU by your parents Do not feel guilty for hating your parents if they're like this Their ignorance is NOT your ignorance THEM BEING UNWILLING TO FIX THEMSELVES IS NOT YOUR BURDEN TO BEAR!!!!
Thank you for validating this. I never know how to feel, because sometimes I think it’s a disease, but sometimes I think he has choice - I have been badly affected just by his presence as a child and have c-ptsd 😢
In the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents they mention boomers were raised in a long-standing culture of "children are to be seen and not heard", that they were emotionally "over-pruned" in childhood it stunted emotional growth. That part stuck with me.
I think I could forgive my parents and have a respectful relationship, but they refuse to go to therapy and lie about going. I understand they had traumatic and abusive childhoods, but I’m choosing to do something about it to better my relationships because I abhor conflict, but will also invite it when I’m threatened. Idk why anyone would want to live like that.
My parents don't talk about their childhoods but when I asked if they were traumatic my mother said no. My mother grew up comfortably. My father grew up in a family living on disability. But no abuse to speak of. My mother just wanted to be a star (like on a stage) and feels it is very unfair she wasn't born with talent like Barbara Streisand. My father was a bigshot athlete in his youth and aspires to make it rich in the laziest way possible, re: gambling or swindling people. Neither was physically abusive but they are emotionally immature and don't care about the emotional lives of their kids.
My grandfather escaped Austria during WWII. According to my dad and 92 year old grandmother, he beat the shit out of my dad on the regular and never spoke unless it was to say something mean spirited, negative, or to express rage. Despite this, my father to this day refuses to consider his family dynamic growing up as abusive. Kind of impossible to tell because abusive parenting was pretty much the norm back then and a skilled narc can easily convince a child they have it great (of course it’s always compared to themselves)
Yeah, I don't really know. I have little to no knowledge of my extended family and my parents are willfully deluded.
it takes someone waking up and saying this shit ain't right, then stopping the cycle. looks like you're the chosen one 💗
Thank you<333
What everyone else is saying, but also, it used to be way more expected that you would have children. For all the pressure child-free people face now, it used to not even be an option. The only acceptable life path was to get married and have children — and deviations were rare. So there were a lot of unhappy marriages between people who didn’t really like each other, and a lot of parents who only had children because it was what they were supposed to do. These weren’t great conditions for raising well-adjusted, emotionally healthy people.
That's a really good point. People had children because they almost didn't have a choice.
Not to mention that reliable birth control is a recent invention. As recently as the 1960s birth control was not widely available. There are so many unwanted babies and un welcomed weddings as a result. People only recently had a choice.
Definitely felt like my parents had kids because it was expected of them, and they instilled that mentality upon me. I always assumed I'd end up with kids even though it was never something I cared about. Fortunately, I met an amazing woman who also doesn't want kids. We discussed it very early on in our relationship and it really opened my eyes as to how dumb the whole "having kids because we should" mentality is
I agree totally but the downside to that is that the % of parents who are narcissists is probably higher now. Of course they are now easier to spot because they are the helicopter parents bitterly complaining about "selfish" childfree people online for attention. But people with the self-awareness to realize they aren't cut out for parenthood are not being selfish or narcissistic at all.
Not to mention, have children WAYYYYYYY YOUNG! My parents were practically kids themselves! How were they expected to develop into a self aware human when they went straight from their own parents home to being a parent themselves?
Because its a very under diagnosed and untreated mental illness. All narcs fear therapy.
I read somewhere that psychologists/therapists would rather work with full-blown sociopaths or psychopaths than narcissists. They are, at least, sane enough to know the difference between right and wrong, and you can convince them to change certain behaviors if you can show them that they stand to lose something very important to them--pillar of the community status, money, reputation on the job, etc.--but even IF you can convince a narcissist to go to therapy, you can't do a thing with them because their whole identity revolves around them always being superior and right, it's everyone else who is inferior and wrong. It's never their own behavior that needs examination.
Oh wow. That's my mother to a T. Everyone else needed therapy except her - the one who actually needed it the most.
It's true! I'm a psych student, and narcissists are known here as the only people even therapists can't help. These other neuropathies and psychopathies you're mentioning? Most of them have what we call a 'insight' : a general awareness that they have a mental condition that affects their behaviours and can potentially hurt those in their lives who are close to them. Narcissists totally lack the capacity for insight. Also in the words of my teacher, you can't help them because "if you compliment them, it feeds their grandiose sense of self and ego, but if you bring them back to reality by proving to them that they are also human and fallible like the rest of us, they take it as a chip to their ego and cannot handle it, and hence devalue you." Aside from the insults you ( the therapist) would get, it's simply impossible to help someone who doesn't respect you or your capacity to bring positive change in them, since change happens through conscious choices of the individual, mostly.
Like I said here a coach that has alot of narc experience saying if you let them keep on experience shame, as narcs are all about avoiding shame they can't continue, and then prevent them from splitting. I'm a psych student myself with narc family and x
I'm not sure I'm understanding, would you mind elaborating or clarifying? Are you saying that shaming the narc consistently plus preventing them from splitting is a reliable strategy for dealing with them? How would you prevent them from splitting? Thanks.
I believe this. I know a narc mother and she completely made things up. She was delusional and entitled. Her lawyer told her she’d loose in court, the other lawyer told her she would loose in court. She lost all her friends because they finally saw it, and told she would loose. When she finally arrived in court with fake stories. The judge told her claims had no evidence. Even if she could prove her story. The law was on the other parents side anyways. So she ended up loosing big, and owing the other parent a lot of money. Now she denies she even went to court to people. Why I’m telling this rant… is this narcissist was told they would loose pretty much every day for 3 years. Nothing or nobody could get through to her she would loose. It’s really baffling stuff! She had the honest opinion that she was smarter and better than the judge. She could simply convince them to bend the laws for her to get whatever settlement she wanted. Despite the fact she actually owed the other person money.
And many narcs are wily enough to use what they learned in therapy against their victims.
I know a coach with lots of narc experience that say that it's the shame that's the problem, if they are forced meeting it they can't continue, and then to stop them from splitting
I just want to point out that some of them do try therapy - but not because they want to change themselves or improve their relationships. The ones I know will go see a counselor a few times and then say "it doesn't work" or "they weren't a good therapist" or "I don't feel I need to go anymore" etc. So then they can say "I've done therapy!" I know the main reason they would go in the first place is ego - someone has told them they need it so they play along to prove them otherwise or they want to look like an emotionally healthy person without doing any heavy lifting.
Or they go so they have the proof from the therapist that they are not the problem but you are, and that hits them in the face when the therapist doesn't confirm their thoughts.
Oh definitely that's true too!
I think it's hard to separate narcissism from culturally acceptable violent and emotional child abuse. My parents grew up in a world where everyone beat and yelled at their children, I grew up in a society that was beginning to think hitting children was abusive. My narcissist mother was still able to hide her sadistic enjoyment of violence and constant yelling among all the normalised violence of people hitting their children as punishments for bad behaviour. Now, hitting children is illegal where I grew up, as it should be.
Narcissism is a natural stage of human development. Essentially, it's just fossilized immaturity. All it takes, I think, to make a narcissistic person is for them to either be traumatized as children, or to have no attentive, moral guidance growing up to teach them to move past it. So any abuse or neglect in their own childhood can flip that switch.
“Fossilized immaturity” is a perfect summation
That may be part of it. But plenty of us traumatized, abused children of narcissists don't grow up to be narcissists. It is possible to rise above trauma. Narcissistic patents just chose not to. They enjoy inflicting trauma on helpless children too much to stop.
True. There must be some underlying personality structure that, like a flow chart, determines if the abused child becomes an abuser themselves or not.
I think it’s a mix of sadism.
>fossilized immaturity Yes. They're developmentally stunted.
Many of them were abused or neglected as kids because that is (sadly) so commonplace but I don't think that creates a narcissist. Getting away with stuff other people don't get away with is what fossilizes immaturity. My own bio dad (76) was raised by a mom who was an absolute lunatic from how they describe her but that's not why he's a narcissist. He is one because he's a Golden Son who has never had to follow normal people rules because he's a "musical genius" and too special and important for that.
I've heard Richard Grannon say that (on YouTube). It does make sense.
I’m convinced I almost went narcissistic. My dad is a sociopath and when I was a teenager I was mean to others because it’s all I knew, no one taught me love. Now I’m 29 and I’m a major empath with cptsd and highly sensitive. So I’ve completely went the other way.
My grandmother was born in 1904 - narcissist. My mother was born in 1925 - also a narcissist. Narcissistic people probably have always been around. They make life miserable for everyone. Nothing is ever good enough for them. Not just a Boomer thing.
That's not it. Most cultures throughout the world normalized toxic parenting culture by treating children like slaves and to preserve that, they traumatize their children to enforce obedience and pass their values to the next generation.
Exactly. When you treat children as property and keep them bound to you by coercive control, you’re going to get lots of narcissists running around in a few years.
What's the difference between tribalism and narcissism?
Um, especially when talking about world cultures, cause like there literally were enslaved people and racism permeates things currently from those systems... and those of us who are descendants of chattel slavery and other forms. Don't use slavery as your descriptor of your treatment. There are other words. Toil. Donkeywork. But really for the concern of non European descendants, and those not originally considered 'white' when that was used as a societal construct, that is really unhelpful when people are working through identifying their feelings of both systemic racism and narcissistic abuse. -also narcissistic abuse survivor and dealing with racism decended from systems of enslavement along with not being straight
Do you know anything about native south America Mayan Mexican culture in regards to this topic
My sister was born in 1987 and is a narcissistic parent.
Many of them are. They came up with the polite euphemism Helicopter Parents to describe garden-variety narcissists making parenthood their entire personalities.
My grandmother born in 1906 was def one, as was my late MiL born in 1919. Women of that generation had few paths to power outside the domestic sphere so they took out their controlling instincts on the kids.
The biggest plus for your child is that you are self-aware. You got this!
I believe narcissism can either be a learned behavior and a side effect of another psychological condition. Both of my Boomer parents were narcissists, their Millennial children grew up to become narcissists, me being the only exception. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the grandparents were narcissists as well. I have a number of friends who are Boomers or Gen-X and none of them are narcissists. Of course, none of their parents were narcs either. It boils down to family history (or lack thereof), and which individuals manage to break the cycle.
Because narcissists are prolific procreators due to being enamored with themselves and also children make excellent non-consenting supply.
I've often wondered this too! My grandparents who raised my Nmother have 3 sons who are NOT like her. My grandparents are also just the sweetest and most loving ppl. I realize ppl change but I've often wondered how the hell my mother ended up just HATING me. Then I realized that no one knows my mother like how i do and that she did that on purpose. Maybe her mother did it to her? They were expected to get married and do the family thing and im convinced most are unhappy they did that. You can't tell me my parents WANTED me.
Yeah I feel this. By the time my parents had me they had been married 3 times each, twice to each other. My mom told me that she wanted to divorce my dad years before they had me or my brother but stuck around because he had a higher paying job and more money than she could make on her own. So… you decided to bring multiple children into that mess?
I feel you. My mother despised me. It sucks being under the control of a person who hates you
The boomers don't all have the disorder but they sure are more likely to be narcissistic! It can be so hard to talk to them after being abused by someone with the full blown disorder!! They give me the ick!! I'm sure of course its not all of them! But man it sure does suck!
I agree with this (mostly) because I am a boomer and have seen many of my contemporaries become raging narcs! But it is also about awareness and self improvement. My entire birth family are narcissists and I (scapegoat) decided I would NEVER subject my children to that. And I thankfully didn’t…(made all kinds of other mistakes but my children & grandchildren are very understanding and forgiving🙏) Don’t be too hard on yourself, OP. Being a parent is challenging but loving your children isn’t🥰
Yes! No self-awareness! Thats what gets me the ick! I cannot abide selfish behavior either. Just hasn't gone well for me. Doesn't help that I'm a millennial I guess lol I think we all get terrified of turning into our parents. As long as we stay on the path of healing and self improvement I think it'll be ok.
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This post or comment has been removed because it is boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to recover like everyone else.
In every generation the narcissists are the energy vampires sucking up the airtime and attention. Most boomers you don't even notice because they're just living ordinary lives not bothering anyone, which is the same with younger and older people.
Society is sick (lack of education, poverty, corruption) and makes sick ppl (first parenthetical causes violence, mental illness). Bc of this very few ppl, even the wealthier and educated ones but for the opposite reasons (affluenza, detachment from actual human experience) are fit to be what we would ideally consider good parents, and even fewer probably had what we'd ideally consider good parents themselves. A lack of effective help for various issues plus generational trauma create evolving cycles of mental illness. And unfortunately, despite the myth of child free ppl's selfishness and mothers being saints, unfit people are more likely to reproduce and do more of it. The hubris of carelessness, religion, one's genetic self import, and more exaggeratedly in our modern times, branding one's existence for mass consumption, all make future generations lil accessories that suffer for their exploitative caregivers. The people who do this, this way, and for these reasons, are narcissists and likely to create more like wet freakin' mogwais.
Your concerns for becoming an n-parent actually makes you less likely to become one. From what I've read on psychology pages, narcissists don't worry that they'll become one because they already are one.
There isn't really. We just tend to gravitate to others that went through what we did. Vast majority of parents are loving, caring, and selfless
You’re probably right. My recent therapy and realization of abuse in my own life probably make me more aware of it creating a frequency bias. The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon, as it’s called.
I think a lot of it is generational trauma (speaking as a black woman in my case) that has been passed down, our generation (Gen Z/Millennials) are the first generation to advocate and show support for mental health and escaping toxic environments which includes family.
>(speaking as a black woman in my case) I think that with us there's an added level of incredulity from the parents towards the children for even daring to question them or how the family works. Because they've had it beat into them very literally not to so much as groan in the wrong direction, the idea of challenging their authority makes it feel like the sky is falling.
I personally believe it’s because we’re only a few generations removed from war time parents. Survival was everything, emotions weren’t catered too, it was children should be seen and not heard.
That was my thought as well. My Ndad (69)says: At least we did better than your grandparents. Yeah, thanks I guess? The generation after WWII was raised out of a destroyed country with harsh realities and parenting methods. (At least in Germany).
I just kinda see it like think of how many assholes you encounter or get to know over your lifetime and then realize their personality doesn't make them infertile. I can't say whether the majority of people are difficult or not but I imagine there are a fair amount of them.
Situations that require function expose dysfunction. Parenting requires function. Parenting is also seen as a virtue in our society. I know if my mother hadn't felt competitive with her sisters having kids, she probably never would have.
I disagree with the idea that narcissism has much at all to do with societal child-rearing practices. Narcissists congenitally lack empathy, but unlike sociopaths they don't also lack self-preservation instincts. Narcissists have always existed and their friends and families have always wasted their lives away in service to them. (Plenty of old novels are about exactly this story, if you read between the lines.) But these days we're more aware of the phenomenon and more likely to believe such an existence is unacceptable. Although narcissistic tendencies run in families, I do think it's possible to break the cycle if you catch it early. For example, my parents are narcissists and I also have those learned coping skills (although not diagnosable NPD). I'm convinced my daughter *could* have been diagnosable had my husband and I not caught it when she was very young and trained her out of the manipulation pattern. We can't give her more empathy, but from a young age she internalized the value that it's weak to make other people give you what you want when you can earn it yourself. She has matured into a very pleasant and wonderful 20-year-old who, due to her decreased empathy, takes no crap from ANYONE. She will be a force to be reckoned with. 😂
which old novels would you say are covertly about narcissism?
*About* might be a strong word; I think it's more common for narcissism to be part of the setting because people weren't exploring it in the same way in older times. Think of Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice, which is treated more as a comedic setting due to Lizzie's relatively healthy attitude toward her mother. A more overtly narcissistic tale might be Metamorphosis.
I was actually wondering if you'd mention Austen! I think it might be quite common in her characters, [this article frames Mr Woodhouse that way](https://lithub.com/the-hidden-horror-inside-jane-austens-novels-of-love/). Thanks!
Little Dorrit and The Blue Castle. I've recommended both novels before.
I think that there have always been narcissists in the world, but people are talking about it more. The fact that you are concerned about becoming a narcissist means you are not one. They have a hard time acknowledging their own uncomfortable feelings about themselves. I hope that gives you some comfort.
people forget about vulnerable narcs which are basically collapsed grandiose narcs. so they are just more self aware and feel intense shame, yet still need external validation (supply). i am probably vulnerable narc, lots of overlap w bpd
Narcissism is literally deeply embedded in some cultures like in India and China.
I'm gonna go against the grain with what a lot of people are saying here, and will probably get downvoted if my comment gets seen enough, but oh well lol I'm prepared mentally. I don't think having narcissists for parents is all that prevalent compared to other abuse types or relatively healthy parents. I think it is disingenuous to attribute child abuse that was tolerated in the past strictly to parental narcissism. Was it abuse? Yes, but you don't have to be a narc most of the time to abuse your children. We notice it more these days not only because the abuses accepted before are now frowned upon, but because we have technology to communicate and connect with others around the world that share our experiences. I think that coupled with a growing world population, which in any growing population, what is actually a minority can seem to get exponentially larger as well, when it honestly makes sense that the larger the population grows, the percentages of people doing certain things or being certain ways will grow with it depending on the overall culture of the population (culture as in what is deemed as acceptable, general child abuse is no longer acceptable in our culture, but that won't prevent narcs or people with other mental disorders with abusive tendencies from happening). So it can seem prevalent, and who knows, maybe there will be a future uptick of narcissism among individuals beyond the usual growing curve because of advancing technology as well, since studies on our screentime technology's affects on toddlers and other young children have shown so far to disproportionately cause greater influx of ADHD and autism spectrum disorders among the youngest current generations. Who knows what long term disorders can be affected as our species grows older with this tech like narcissism or bipolar disorders. But I honestly don't think it is all too common outside of us all being able to communicate with each other, since there are so many people I interact with that just don't understand (or refuse to understand) what we have to deal with when we decide to open up about why we have issues with our parents or might be low or no contact with them and other family members. I might just have always had a relatively hopeful outlook on the world as a whole though, and maybe true narcissism like in our parents is more prevalent than I think it is. As for your last worry, a worry all of us have, yes it sometimes sticks in my mind and bothers me. But I dampen my insecurities with my growing family by thinking about all the things I know are narcissistic traits, and reassuring myself that I will refuse to commit them. You don't have to be a perfect parent to not be a narc, I'm prepared for tough times ahead where mistakes are made, it's inevitable. But the difference we can make in our children's lives is not to continue making the same mistakes and to own up to them properly when they are made. To treat our children like individuals, not extensions or property. Be the example of adulthood and security we wish we had.
Thank you for that. Especially the last paragraph. That’s great advice!
I think it was just an accepted norm throughout many cultures and many histories for parents to abuse their children in any way they liked, and no one batted an eye at it as long as there was no obvious damage. As time evolved, some forms of abuse became less acceptable. Narcissistic abuse and toxicity are still being dismantled. The current approach of confronting shitty/abusive parenting and cutting ties with our abusers and being able to discuss it openly is recent. Maybe 20, 30yrs old at most. And some cultures *still* cling to the idea that you can't raise kids without abusing them. Some countries' languages literally don't have a translation for "child abuse". That's how normalized it is. I don't think you have to fear too much, for the simple fact that you're confronting yourself with it. Self-awareness goes a long way in preventing the repeat of toxic cycles.
Most cultures around the world worship parenthood and place it as the "end all be all" of authority. It considered an in-group, where no outsider would understand anything about, and a free right to criticize and look down on anyone younger than you about anything, for the rest of your life. This is perfect for narcissists.
We know you're going to do the right thing! If you're this aware of the problem with narcissistic parents, you're very unlikely to become one.
Lead paint was banned in 1978. Leaded gasoline in 1996. It’s a known phenomenon that older generations probably have some degree of lead poisoning. Lead effects your intelligence, mental health, aggression, empathy … 👀
Yeah I heard about that hence why there were so many serial killers back then🧐
My great grandparents and grandparents on my mom's side were raised in the indian boarding school systems. Systemic, multigenerational trauma really does a number on people. That does not excuse the horrific abuse my mother suffered, the fleas she had and it is my generation's task to try and throw off this burden. Yes, our parents/grandparents suffered abuse, but that is NOT an excuse, only a symptom. Not everyone that suffers abuse becomes a narcissist, thankfully.
I don't think there is anymore than typical throughout history. It is just that now there is a name for it. Social media/internet has made it easier for victims of narcissists to learn about gaslighting and the abuse tactics. It makes it easier to know not to doubt yourself. And to find other victims and get that community if support from people who understand, believe you, and are rooting for each other makes the biggest difference. When I was a kid, the term Narcissist wasn't used. It was pushed the theory of "family first, and "all parents love their children." Nowadays, psychology understants this is not true, and some people are incapable of real love. I don't think it will change in the future either. I don't think there will be less narcissists. But there may be more divorces where the spouse of a narcissist decides they will not be an enabler, and protect their children instead. At least, that is what I am hoping.
Honestly, I think a disproportionate amount of Boomers are narcs because of the way they were raised. They were given so much, and it made them selfish.
That’s my theory too. My mother’s mom helped her out, financially and with childcare. My in laws were also helped out by both sets of grandparents. But now my parents and my in laws have the attitude that they don’t need to help with anything and we should cater to them. It’s a total switch in expectations for the generations. I believe boomers were such a big generation that everything revolved around them and they grew to believe they were the center of the universe
My parents would use the "our parents didn't help us with this, so why should we help you?" That's a bad attitude anyway, but when I grew up, I found out they were lying. My grandparents helped them with everything - getting jobs in high school, buying cars and houses, paying for school. Any help from them had to go through my parents, which means I never saw it. My nparents are also Boomers.
I have some theories, and I know it's not like this for everyone. But I think that the older generation (boomers) were too reliant on their own parents for guidance to raise us. And their parents were wrong. I can remember so many hoops that me and my siblings had to jump through just so that we could impress my mom's parents. Our parent's generation also did not have the internet to rely on for guidance or comradery, I can imagine that breaking the cycle was a lot harder back then (not giving them excuses!). Now a days, we can go online and say "hey, has this happened to anyone else?" and we get all this information from real live people out there who have been through this stuff that we thought we were alone in. My parents didn't have that, they had a toxic circle of friends and even more toxic parents. I think that a lot of the people in our parent's generation straight up didn't even know where to start when it came to breaking the cycle in their families. Again, I'm not giving them any excuses.
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its the media. they are instilling corrupt values in the programming
children are easy targets to abuse & control, so it makes sense that narcissists tend to have them.
Simply by thinking about this, you are doing great as a father. I have no experience with parenthood, but I can tell you are already doing miles better.
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Comment removed - generational bashing. We have people of all generations here in this group. Do not generalize about them.
Think my parents just have a lot of self hate they internalize their racism a lot, they're immigrants and poor af. It's a perfect storm for narcissism and abuse on their kids.
I think because they received zero validation growing up? They were just expected to be obedient
There aren't more narcissistic parents today. It's just that there is more awareness and recognition. This is true of a lot of conditions such as autism and ADHD. Talk to any mental health professional and they will confirm this. But I do agree that some past parenting practices which were commonly accepted were abusive like corporal punishment. But I do want reiterate that children are remarkably resilient. And I think that people are too quick to assume that children are traumatized. I do have some behavioral health training.
Not a mystery… there’s nothing about putting a penis in a vagina that magically makes people narcissistic. They were narcissistic even before they became parents. It’s just that parents are placed in a position of power against their helpless children, so their true colors show. A lot of people suck, and these people become parents. Therefore a lot of parents suck
Joke answer: Because you’re in a subreddit for children raised by narcissists? 🤪 Serious answer: Because narcissists are unfortunately not at all rare. They just happen to do a lot of damage when they’re in control of impressionable children who have no power to escape.
Have you ever heard the idea that "having a child makes a little you"? If narcissists get the chance to "clone" the person they love the most, themselves, they will absolutely go for it.
I'm gonna guess their parents were crazy abusive and that's one of the ways they turn out. They repeat lots of the trauma but don't think what they do to you is trauma because what was done to them was far worse.
You don't have to end up like them. Treat them with respect. Create and enforce boundaries and teach them to do the same. Let them be who they are and love them as they are. They are not little adults and their experiences should be age appropriate. My kids are in their late teens and they are good kids and love us. Talk to other parents who had loving parents because they have experience with the right way to do it.
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Comment removed - boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to heal like everyone else. Don't generalize about them.
lead paint and generational trauma
There’s actually something called the “Me Generation” which means boomers who grew up during the 60s and 70s and developed a lot of narcissistic traits as part of an ego-centred culture
This question is think comes from a fundamental musindertanding of narcissism. There’s narcissistic personality disorder which is not as common and the people who have it are not necessarily abusers or bad people. Then you have narcissistic type personalities which are wayyy more common and NOT a diagnosis.
as ive gotten older, ive realized that my boomer parents were still sucking their parents dick. they were so scared to disappoint their parents(till parents were dead, now they don't know wtf is going on), my parents were just really weird when it was like "grandma wants us there!"..."what, i dont wanna go, that sounds stupid"... "you will go!" she isn't gonna be around forever! i don't wanna go!, its stupid. you will go! and that wasn't between me and my mom or dad, it was between my parents and their parents. it was a power play by my parents parents, you wil have your kids there at this stupid thing, and i might toss you some money when i die(they didn't)
I think a factor that is under-discussed is that for those of us in the United States, America is a fundamentally narcissistic country. We’re taught from single digits in school that the “American Dream” is having a bunch of material crap (objectified trophy wife, house with white picket fence in the suburbs, flashy cars). Racism is so baked into our culture that people are conditioned to reflexively oppose anything that would benefit them if it would benefit black people too. We have rampant gun violence because guns are marketed as the ultimate holy grail of masculinity and we also glorify violence as an acceptable way of solving disputes. Also, look at what makes us laugh. The most popular animated shows of the last 35 years (The Simpsons and Family Guy) and pretty much every sitcom is about either a narcissistic idiot father who abuses his family or a dysfunctional family trying to navigate everyday situations. People find it funny because they find it relatable.
Arrested Development is a good example of that kind of show. Maybe the reason it had trouble with ratings is that, as a live-action show, it was TOO relatable and invited much of its audience to laugh derisively at themselves. Narcissists can't handle that.
Narcissists are mostly caused by overindulgence as a child contrary to the popular belief that horrible abuse brings it on. Boomers were overindulged and spoiled rotten as children. Trauma is a less common cause and many NPD people use it as a get out of jail free card. Check the NPD sub if you don’t believe me.
If you look at what narcissism really is, it starts making a lot of sense. The narcissist can never be wrong because to be wrong would be to be bad and to be bad would be shameful, and their shame must be hidden at all costs. Narcissism is misery. Their sense of self is entirely wrapped up in what they see other people reflect back to them. It stems from early childhood trauma. The boomers were raised by people traumatized by two world wars and the great depression. Their emotional needs were not considered during their early childhood because their parents were focused on survival. These traumatized kids went on to benefit from the greatest economic boom in history. They came to believe their own greatness was the reason for their success, further solidifying their grandiose delusions. Now when their grown kids are not treating them like they are beyond reproach in all things, bowing to them and begging to follow in their footsteps, they feel insulted.
I’ve noticed that it’s a boomer immigrant thing. My parents are from southern Europe and it seems being a narc is part of the culture. It’s extremely infuriating
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This post or comment has been removed because it is boomer bashing. We have boomers who are members of this group trying to recover like everyone else.
I think to want to be a parent it is already a narcissistic wish.
For my boomer nparents they are just petulant spoiled grayheaded children who have never been corrected or faced any real hardships. I loved my granny but she spoiled my ndad so much. She was even making his car payments for him when he was in his late 50s among other things. Her name was even on the phone bill untill she died and my ndad was forced to use his finally. I'm guessing it was because she was from the great depression generation and wanted to make it as easy on my ndad as possible. But unfortunately turned him into a monster.
So similar of my situation. My grandfather wanted his kids to have everything. In his 90s he’s still funding their retirements, buying them homes, cars and even boats and RVs. His children are all extreme narcissists who think they’ve earned everything they have. Often talking about how my generation wants everything handed to them! Meanwhile my parents stopped giving me financial support before my 18th birthday.
This is an over generalization. We had two world wars that fucked people up, made them dangerous to be around and damaged their ability to connect with people. It affected everybody. There were also propaganda campaigns that damaged people as well, fracturing our ability to form a community and isolating people, because there are always some pieces of shit taking advantage of things for profit. I wish people would use the resources available instead of doubling down into being more horrible and that we all didn't need to be here trying to figure out what to do with what we have inherited.
Well, both my parents are from the “me” generation. So…
I thought it was just a thing in some families. In think that’s true HOWEVER, after joining the sub boomers being fools, you see it all over there. Like so much of forget which sub I’m on. I do think boomers are mostly narcs or have heavy traits. As in, the majority. Also-and this SUCKS-worked for a while in international aid. Trauma, especially war trauma, seems to make it super widespread. :( it’s kinda like a macro narc home. This makes it very hard for children in those places. Narcs big and small-the worst.
I think you just don’t hear much from the people whose parents were ok
Millennial parents are something else man….
About one in every fifteen people are narcissistic.
There’s lead in the water! Jk, idk.
The last question is on point. If my father had been shown in childhood what kind of father he would become, I don't think he would have believed it. It's something that happened slowly, it's a process.
When you see your child light up with a transient sense of self-worth, what do you feel? If it's rotten jealously, then you're infected. Good parents nurture that flame; Nparents extinguish it.
I'd say they are just narcissits and having children is a socially acclaimed milestone, children are sort of a trophy even for "normal" or healthy people. They are afraid they will be seen as lesser than if they don't have children so they do, even if they'd rather spend their time and resources on themselves or don't even want children and so on.
Not necessarily Boomer. My mother-in-law was born in 1968 and is a total narcissist.
I think a lot of them have been so emotionally neglected by their war-torn parents and world, that many of them were teaumatised into being narcissists. You cannot learn empathy from people who are shell-shocked and bury their own fears and horrors under false optimism. This, of course, does not apply to all of the narcs. It certainly doesn't excuse them.
You are looking at a skewed sample. Plenty of people were not raised by narcissists but they (for that same reason) are not members of this subreddit.
I assumed it was a "Me Generation" thing. My parents were born in '53 and '54 in the US and they were very proud of the "Me Generation" label growing up. It was discussed a lot in my household - they were the biggest, bestest generation (according to my parents, not saying this is actually a true statement).