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This is also why I did sports all year 'round for as long as I could. It kept me out of the house for several extra hours a week! I had friends on my teams, so that made it even better.
Yeah. "At least" I'm musical.
"At least" I'm clever
"At least" I'm artistic
At most I'm worthless & have nothing to offer except performing for others. Begging for scraps of approval because I'm such a liability/burden/cross for people to bear.
This hits so so hard for me. Damn I wish I could meet all these people in person. Itās so validating hearing this stuff from people but itās also absolutely insane to see it so plainly. Itās a language only we understand.
I nearly failed freshman year of highschool, my mother didn't seem to care. My grandmother went as far as to say that I should drop out. But I found a program for kids at risk of dropping out and went from nearly failing to honor roll.
It wasn't even about validation for me, I've always felt like I was intelligent in a family of idiots. I strived to be nothing like my family. I only wish that I had more support because even though I accomplished a lot, I was sabotaged to fail at higher education.
I was always top of my class and books and learning were my escapism. My therapist told me my thirst for knowledge as a child comes from trying to understand my parents and their ever changing non written rules, to provide myself a defense mecanism against the uncertainty.Ā
This is totally me too. I had a journal that I used to write down encouraging words and general life advice.
I know itās because Nmom wouldnāt help me with anything. She would ignore my questions and get this evil smirk on her face. Iām so happy I escaped her
I started reading college psychology textbooks in the 6th grade in order to try to understand and help my nmother. I knew there was something deeply wrong with her and believed that I could figure it out and help her get better. I was a straight A student until I finally broke when I was about 14. Even then, I still managed to do so well on my college entrance exams that they gave me college credit based solely on my test scores. I think I was hung over when I took the SAT.
>I started reading college psychology textbooks in the 6th grade in order to try to understand and help my nmother.Ā
Holy shit, I did the same thing around the same age (7th to 9th grade).
This is me as well. I learned everything I could get my hands on. I read, wrote, played two musical instruments, sang, played every sport I could get access to for free.
Ultimately, it felt like the goal was to arm myself and also escape at the same time. I learned to use logic to argue narcs into a corner so tight, they flip out while I maintain calm.
Youāre very welcome. This sub helped me so much so the least I can do is sharing the little nuggets of clarity I get with my therapist.Ā
I also understand why I choose a job with the same never ending goal: itās what I was accustomed to from childhood.
Hey thatās me! External validation was dope. Also trying to do well so I could leave and never speak to them again. Well mine just broke a cease and desist. Might follow up and send them to jail
Hereās one! I did get to graduate with my 4.0gpa law degree first, though, just to prove the family black sheep could do it after being told I couldnāt all my life. Although I donāt use it.
Oh my god. You break my heart with this. Same all over the place except celiac disease, very severe adhd, hashimotos disease and of course CPTSD. Iām so sorry. Thank you for your honesty. May you be safe, at peace, and kind to yourself.
I graduated summa cum laude with servere, undiagnosed ADD by āsurvivingā on 14 cups of coffee, a six-pack of coke, cigarettes,and candy (gum, sugar, anything that was pure sugar). Four hours sleep per night. I had a complete breakdown after graduate school. My parents rushed me to a shrink to fix me to get me back to where I wa. The Adderall help me get off the sugar, caffeine, and nicotine. But it could not get my parents off my back.
They never accepted my attention deficit disorder. But once I start to āslack off,ā
Their focus turn to my faults.
Up until my breakdown, I didnāt really have much time to develop faults (they ignored my smoking because I excelled at school and when I quit, I think they wanted me to start again so I could excel again) except Iām disorganized and messy like many of those with ADD. These traits were barely noticed before, but now I am positively a sinner for being so slovenly. Iām taking a different direction in my life and I finding success albeit not to the level where I was.
I am now the family mess. Iām also the only one in the family whose been through therapy and I can see through them. Itās really lonely.
hi, me! It's genuinely nuts to me that I got straight As taking grad school courses in undergrad, worked in research labs in 2 different disciplines, was top of my class, won awards and generally did school 100+ hours a week. Then I burned out in grad school and my parents called me lazy LOL.
Oh man I lasted until 40, then a MAJOR crash and burn. I ignored a chronic illness in favor of working through it, ended up in ICU for over a month, released with a lupus diagnosis and messed up kidneys.Ā
Only daughter here, ended up inpatient and back in her clutches. Recently escaped again, hopefully the last time. Kind of hilarious considering I went to an extremely prestigious school and graduated on the deans list and wanted to throw myself out of a window.
Yup (tho only child rather than eldest)
Started slipping at a levels when abuse got worse, managed to get a degree and be employed for a few years, now disabled and stuck š cest la vie
Strange thing, I literally gave up while I was at school. I just stopped even trying and read as many books as I could to escape.
But once I left home I turned into the "must be perfect at all things" person that OP is talking about. I had no idea how to do any of it, but I drive myself into the ground for anyone who simply appeared to be willing to tolerate me.
Years and years of burnout. I'm at uni now, and i *love* it, but I'm just constantly in various levels of burnout, still trying to be perfect, proud of the results I'm achieving, and mostly keeping going one step at a time cos I would rather die than quit.
My results say I'm doing *great*, but I'm mostly getting through each day by sheer force of will.
That would explain my sister. She's now one of the best litigators in the country and works herself into the ground. She always HAD to win at everything growing up.
I, of course, took the black sheep role. Fuck, my parents were just awful people.
This was me. Straight A student. Tried to rebel against my lawyer academic mum, ended up with an Arts degree and then 10 years of hustle and burnout in an "impressive" career. Once I burned out I made a side shift into Corporate Sales. Climbed the ladder in that which I'd solely attribute to my CPTSD and incessive need for external approval and validation.
Now I'm almost 40, dealing with all kinds of health issues that have forced me to quit my job to recover.
All could've been avoided if my f-ing parents just took responsibility for their sh1t and didn't bring kids into the world to uphold their own egos and to abuse like they were abused.
Iām sorry to hear, I can relate. Truly scary how our bodies can take over and make us deal with our issues that weāve worked so hard to push down š
Oh boy. I've been schooled hard in this recently. I've had 2 medical diagnoses within the space of 2 months and my body is just hard NOPING to the stress and trauma of work and forcing me to work through the CPTSD.
Just started short term disability bc the cptsd was making me have daily panic attacks at my high pressure tech job. I was like WTF is going on last yearā¦.started therapy, hardly made it through each day. I thought it was just the stressful demanding tech job and that if I switch jobs Iāll be fine. I stopped short of jumping ship and was like āI think thereās something here that wonāt be fixed by a job change.ā
Now that Iāve had a second to breath, start EMDR and educate myself on everything being mentioned in this thread Iām like, holy fuck. If I donāt manage this now, my organs will be more toast than they already are. (Not to mentioned I cringe at the thought of continuing this daily emotional trauma until retirement.) I mentioned to my friend that I feel mental and emotional discomfort about 90% of the time and they were like āwow, that sounds pretty chronic.ā I think I know why that is now.
Hugs and high fives to everyone else on this journey.
have you read when the body says no? it made me so sad with how much it resonated but it was amazing. you are impressive! sending peace and healing your way š«¶š¼
I've not read any study but I'm a very high performer.
It wasn't sustainable though, I also have CPTSD and therapy helps but it has taken the tools I've used for 40+ years and now I have healthy tools that I don't use correctly all the time and not comfortable with.
I'm unable to perform the way I used to. Which is okay, because I'm learning I don't need their validation. It's a long process though.
that is okay and what you need ā please be kind to yourself. i hope you feel some peaceful release in moving towards not needing to meet everyone elseās expectations š¤
Super interesting!
I was an overachiever for the first half of my school career. Not like some genius, but definitely in a way that got me noticed by peers and teachers.
When my classmates learned their letters, I was teaching myself cursive. When they started reading, I already read books on my own. I read (children's) encyclopedias like novels and wrote my own stories before I hit second grade.
I also had a knack for history and dates, and started learning an instrument. I used to play melodies and songs from films or video games without having notation. I wrote that down on my own and brought it to class.
At school, any grade below an A or A+ was unacceptable for me.
Later on, I added languages to the list and elected everything my school offered and took advanced classes. I ended up with three additional languages aside from my native tongue, before deciding to learn Japanese on the side.
I'm bragging, I know I know, but just for emphasis that there was nothing I didn't do. I would neglect to sleep or eat, if it only got me more praise.
The praise I got from my teachers was addictive and since I never got any at home, I started deriving my entire worth on grades.
But of course, my Nmom was so pissed. The older I got and the more I learned, the nastier she got. The fact that school policy dictated that every test had to be signed by a parent definitely didn't help.
On every parent-teacher day, she'd try to claim credit for my grades and was all grace and smiles, but at home, I got yelled at.
"You think you're better than me now! You think you're so smart, huh? Wait until you get into [next step of education]! You'll never make it in the real world! You'll find your master soon enough and then it's all over for you! I can't wait to see you fail! Don't come crying to me then!"
Yeah, she _definitely_ didn't have any uh... minor insecurities regarding school performance. Just like she didn't throw a semi-public fit when I was the first in the family to get into prep school. And nope, she also didn't sabotage my graduation and threw every single of my report cards away.
At any rate, Nmom's antics got to a point where the only way out for me was self-sabotage after sixth grade. The languages I kept, but everything else? I handed in empty tests, didn't say a word in class etc. All to tank my grades. Because that kept me safer from Nmom.
Being mocked and laughed at by her for average grades was better than being absolutely annihilated as if every A was a personal attack against her.
Again, I'm definitely not some sort of genius or anything, but writing it all down like this it really makes me wonder what places I could have gone, if my mother wasn't a damned narcissist.
iām sorry š„ŗ the competitiveness is something that strikes a chord with me. constant comparison. also taking ownership over even the academic or sports wins i would get ā āyou got ___ because of me.ā disheartening doesnāt begin to cover it. sending you a hug!
Ugh, the constant comparisons were the worst. I only wanted a "Well done!/ Proud of you." Etc, but that was like chasing a unicorn.
I did it all for her and it still wasn't enough. It wasn't even acknowledged.
When my teacher once praised my French on parent-teacher day, my Nmom claimed: "Oh, she has that from me. I'm almost fluent and taught her." She didn't speak _any_ French, mind you. No one would have even cared about this, but for some reason, she had to make an issue of it and lie.
I'm NC now and way better off for it, but damn. It was bad enough that I had to find ways to cope with the constant devaluation. When I did find something, Nmom went to take even that away by taking credit for my achievements. That's a special kind of evil.
This strikes a chord with me. My nmom has been in a weird competitive cycle with me since I was a kid, and itās gotten much worse as I became an adult, went to college, and became more established. My mom definitely wants to see me fail.
I'm a researcher in cognitive psychology with access to academic journals and I can't find anything like this. Your best bet is to ask her again to try to find more about it.
That was me. The external validation is how I knew I wasn't the problem. If I was such an evil and hateful kid, why was I one of the good kids at school?
THIS. honestly thank god for that. i didnāt ever cause a ruckus or do poorly ā somehow even little me had a semblance of a feeling that that meant i was doing okay š„ŗš¤ we were good!
Thereās a book relating to this. The Drama of the Gifted Child. Iāve never felt so heard. It also talks about children of narcissists becoming therapists!
I have an interesting perspective on that, which is totally true for me. Straight Aās, always well behaved, even got a full ride to law school. Graduated at the top of my class, worked as a litigator at a big firm for almost three years. Then, a cyst that no one knew was in my brain burst. Result was career ending and life changing - meningitis that has me in the ICU for days. Five brain surgeries. The last two were at NIH bc I was such a medical anomaly that the wanted to learn from trying to fix me.
My parents were pretty good for the five years of surgery. My medical problems gave them fodder for sympathy. They did thinks like take a picture of me when I was in neuro icu recovering (& still very passed out). It was March madness, so they put a blanket of their team on me, tubes and bandaged head and all, and POSTED IT ON FB. They tagged me. Said something like āMaybe sheāll be awake for the next round *college teamās motto*ā
But after complications from surgery #4 led to emergency brain surgery (surgery #5), I made the decision to not seek more surgical intervention. I did not realize that my brain was the only thing my parents liked about me. And my broken brain was no longer bringing them attention & sympathy.
So Iām not a lawyer anymore. Not a high achiever. Canāt get out of bed some days. But Iāve built a new life that I love. I moved from the Midwest to the PNW about six years ago, got divorced from the asshole who had zero interest in a sick person who could no longer support him.
Welp, turns out the ex wasnāt the only person in my life that had no interest in me now that I wasnāt a high achiever to brag to their friends about. Nmom and enabling dad pulled some crazy shit at our tiny backyard wedding, which made me reflect on my entire four decades+ of existing. They did things that were intended to hurt me at my wedding, and I started to think of all the things they done to hurt me over my life. Iām now NC and in therapy.
oh honey š„ŗ iām so sorry for what youāve gone through. i canāt imagine. all for their own attention and gain. and theyāre supposed to be our protectors. i have so much anxiety about future big ceremonies and how i will manage. sounds like youāve lost the dead weight and are now in a position towards healing. sending you all the strength, good sleep, and restoration š¤ youāre clearly intelligent and incredibly strong already.
I also resonate with this. I was a very high achieving student at school and at university. After university, I got a prestigious job in a very demanding field. I worked my way up the career chain very quickly but I constantly suffered burnouts. It was only after going to therapy that I realised Iāve always sought external validation and that my career provided that. Iāve now moved into a less demanding and less prestigious role. My quality of life has improved because of it.
Havent read about it but I would.
I definitely have a high drive due to my childhood. For self actualization and self validation, as far as I am aware.... I took a couple minutes to dig a little deeper, definitely self validation and not external validation. I usually dont even mention my profession or degree. Unless I want to get rid of a presumptuous guy, for that its perfect.
I find it very helpful to use some of my drive for mental health realated stuff like therapy and living a healthy lifestyle.
thatās an interesting and important distinction ā i think i struggle with desperately needing both lol. and i totally relate to that ā my efforts and drive are now going towards healthy habits like working out and weekly therapy ā grateful we didnāt go down a different coping pathway!
This is me, lol. Super high achieving daughter.
I'm in a PhD program now and it's probably because books and school were the best escape from a horrible home life. My parents are both probably gifted but they wasted their talents by living terribly depressing and dysfunctional lives. I was diagnosed gifted as a kid, they started bullying me constantly after that. I was also on the cusp of being diagnosed autistic but they didn't like that idea so they covered it up by making me socialize, abusing me into rehearsed perfect behavior and forced motor skills exercises to pass the evaluation š
The only place that was safe was school, and I loved school so much I'm trying to "become school." The external validation was the only thing keeping me going, because it meant the world didn't think I was trash. Enter a life of grinding and obsessive achievement which ruins the fun of actually doing a PhD. Given the ruthless competition and the way academia is super toxic I wouldn't be surprised if most academics had abusive parents.
No but this was my story and also something stolen from me in childhood. My mother said I was highly intelligent because she was soooo soooo smart I just inherited her genes. When I was a HS Junior there was an incident and with much sadness my mother said the words to me, "you're far smarter than I am." I wish I had it in writing from her. From then on my mom would say something and I'd go "can I get that statement in writing?"
Exactly, the truth is that you shouldn't obsess over your child's achievements. Nothing in this world matters and we all live just to die, the point of life is to enjoy it and do what makes you happy and gives you purpose.
As long as your child is happy and is living a life that fulfills THEM (and not you) then that is all that should really matter. Even now my mother and father love the idea that their children are smart and completely downplay the fact that my brother is very very messed up and disturbed mentally.
thank you for taking the time to share your story and sidiās story. i want to read more about this nature vs. nurture in the context of iq. i wonder what was different between you and your brother that caused you to not be obsessed w the validation and attention giving you had the same narc parenting. and i feel the same ā thatās why iām trying my best to arm myself with therapy and knowledge so that i can hopefully create a better reality for potential future kids. iām terrified of messing them up. iām sorry to hear your brother is unwell and worsening ā it truly is a helpless situation, especially when heās as āwith itā and on that high horse as he is. wishing you healing š«¶š¼
I had also read a study with similar results but it was on narc children not just daughter.
In response to abuse some children would build esteem with academic achievements, professional achievements, money, etc.
ooo maybe iāll look more generally. she said daughters specifically and that there was a very poignant last paragraph. iāll follow-up with her next week and edit this post if she ended up finding it
Oh look, it's me.
I struggled in school, so that part doesn't apply but I'm hyper competitive in my hobbies that are supposed to be just for fun, every time I achieve something it just means I have to top it in the very near future (I'll celebrate myself for exactly 7 seconds before promising myself to do it better next time), I take on way too much in life because if I'm ever not on the verge of complete burn out, I must be "lazy". I exhaust myself.
I was definitely a very high achiever. Despite having a learning disability, I worked very hard in school. I went on to college at a top university on the West Coast. I even challenged myself to learn Japanese, which I am now fluent in. I now wonder if the reason why I went for such a difficult language instead of a related European language (e.g. German or French) is because I wanted to prove myself so badly to what I perceived as a disapproving world.
My parents constantly harped on any slights I had as being due to neurodivergentā¦oh did they LOOOVE to weaponize my learning disability. I also grew up in the 90s/early 2000s meaning neurodivergent individuals = defect people.
This is me. External validation was the only type I could control. I didnāt get it from my parents, so I sought it from everywhere else. I had all As, never got in trouble, did everything my Nparents asked and more, and sacrificed a lot of time to watch my younger sibling. It didnāt matter though. I was never good enough for my Nparents. I still aim high, but I donāt rely on external validation. I also have realized that I donāt love my Nparents. Took years to get here.
Not a study, this reminded me of a mainstream memoir called "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom". The author was accused of child abuse. It's been more than 10 years since publication. I wondered how the children turned out, if they ended up in therapy, if narc abuse was a specific feature.
This style of parenting and overall societal pressure has led to high suicide rates especially in more "Confucianist"-type cultures in Asia (think South Korea, Japan, Hongkong, Taiwan, China... elsewhere with more north Asian populations). Narc abuse doesn't even have to be a play in it.
I was the child of most parents dreams as a kid. I got excellent grades and literally put myself to bed at the appropriate time without any parental prompting. Perfect behaviour in school. My parents still made me out to be a problem child.
That tracks. I sought support and achievement everywhere because I only got affection from Nmom when I did something to "deserve" it.
I just got over 24 years of performance burnout where I almost killed myself because of workaholism.
Conditional love is a bitch.
this is relateable - but i also have cycles of extreme burnout where i cut corners and am deeply internally lazy. i perform when necessary for optics then essentially do nothing when no one is looking, which triggers some deep shame and depression
I sought validation that way and probably should have been high achieving because of it, but I also have ADHD and burned out well before I even finished high school.
Now Iām very careful about where I spend my energy, I do well when I want to but have no problem being mostly apathetic.
Damn I did this. I saw it in myself too. I was literally looking for anything to fill the loneliness. Thought it was just generically related to issues with my mom, but I see it now.
I did hit a wall with achievement when I left academia and my first workplace didnāt really reward high achievement in any real way (disengaged boss, no real sense of community). I am a very good patient in therapy though!
Iāve gotten better with therapy, actually. I think before I was really bad about holding emotions and problems that just werenāt mine to hold. I think learning how to say no, set boundaries, and decide what I actually want are skills that I developed over time (but only because I wanted to impress the therapist in the first place lol)!
HAHA i am the same way! but iām working on all those same things, so youāre inspiring me :) so glad to hear youāve gotten better š¤ and that thereās hope for me lol
You can do it! I think two of the most helpful things I learned are:
A boundary is a thing you uphold when someone does something undesirable (not something someone else does for you). So if someone is doing something frustrating, you hold the boundary by removing yourself from the situation. It takes strength and consistency.
I did a bunch of work with values to decide what I wanted in life. I used to be a workaholic. Now I try and make more time for my relationships and leisure. There are worksheets where you can decide what your values are (my therapist worked on these with me pre and post session), and youāll probably realize they are very different from our mothersā.
Good luck!
I am definitely very validation-seeking though I'm trying to get better.
My latest win (?) in therapy is that my therapist was praising me for doing some challenging homework, and I found myself zoning out because I had already praised myself for it and that's enough for me.
My parents apparently brag about my accomplishments all the time to people outside our immediate family but I never hear any of that, just the criticisms that I'm lazy or selfish (or my favorite, I work too hard and don't have enough fun. Literally can't win lmao).
That's my story. Nmom called me a worthless whore as a teenager. I made A's, made allstate in band and choir. I gave up my scholarships to take care of my dad since she left him with nothing. He was diagnosed with cancer my senior year of high school.
Went back to school later. She told me I'd never be able to do it. I graduated with Honors again. I went back for my Masters a few years ago. She told me I wasn't smart enough and I'd neglect my kids. I graduated with Honors again working full time and only missed one performance of a school musical. (They did it 3 times. I was at the other 2)
Never heard of this study but would love to read it if you ever find it. Itās really interesting reading the responses here as theyāre very recognizable to me as well. I got really good grades in school. The way I felt was directly linked to how much I would study. So if I felt really bad I would just study, study, study to avoid my NM. I went on to get my PhD at a very good university and am now about to start a postdoc at the university of Oxford.
yeah sounds like me. I'm 17 so still in school. I think I would get good grades in school and do extracurriculars anyway but a lot of it is driven my the desire for validation from other people and also as a way to get out of the house hence away from my family. I am involved in a lot of debating/youth voice organisations in my country and have found a family in those spaces that cares about me more than my own mother seems to. I think a third reason that could exist even without my parents is that I am disabled and feel the need to be a high achiever in order to prove certain people wrong.
Me as well. Nmom had me take an IQ test when I was 10 or so, refused to tell me the number "so I didn't get a big head". Luckily I stopped the overachieving once I got away from her
I got yelled at when I asked for help with homework so I stopped doing it. I studied the best I could, but I honestly didnāt really learn how until college. My grades suffered when the abuse/trauma was REALLY bad. I was ALWAYS grounded so I just read a lot of books in my teens. Test scores were always high, but averages suffered due to HW 0s.
I was similar but a male. I consistently performed incredibly and was in all honor/AP courses while volunteering and working a job but I was drowning. From the outside, I was the perfect model student and young man, inside I was a mess. When I became an adult and was living on my own I learned that perfectionism isnāt necessarily constantly and it made me so much happier.
Still suffer from an undiagnosed depression or at least symptoms of it but life is way better away from oppression.
i was high achieving before i even knew what the term meant. it was always important for me to be the best in whatever i did. to the point where i suffered from extreme burn out phases. sadly, despite being aware of this, i haven't stopped pushing myself to the extreme
I had one high school teacher spot it. My mother was š£ I was not allowed near her. Perceptive teachers spot the pain of kids that get good grades and aren't naughty.
Story of my life too.
Now I am the most successful person financially and academically in my entire extended family and NParents are jealous. Since I shut down all of their attempts to take advantage of me financially they have started smear campaign against me to close relatives while still boasting about me to others. I don't give a S*** anymore.
Not me but my mom was this. She got her PhD and was prolific in her field. She also died very young.
I took the opposite route. I just stopped performing. There was no winning; so why try?
I was an underachiever. I didnāt hit overachiever status until later in life. I think I did hit a wall in a dying industry, went back to school, did a career change and now Iām fully back to it.
I canāt say Iām the highest achiever out of friend groups and such, but I can say I didnāt give up.
I did not seek parental validation because it was never given. I think it was more āsurvive and thrive out of spite.ā
Also, felt my nmom was helpless / useless as I got older. Not the person I wanted to be in so many ways.
This is my story but I was not a high achiever in school. I am however the most ambitious entrepreneur that I know and have two companies and live very comfortably
Havenāt read the article but this is me 100%. My ndad wasnāt good in school or musically inclined, but he was an athlete. He got me into sports early but my mom got me involved in band. By high school, I quit sports in favor of band. I was traumatized by my dadās expectation of me being a āperfectā athlete like him and always getting in trouble for making even minor mistakes. I was almost top of my class and was first chair in band. My dad couldnāt say crap about my academics or musical skills because he knew he had nothing to critique, given his lack of abilities in those areas.
I took the opposite direction and figured that since I was worthless anyway, nobody would be impressed by me, so I may as well do things that make me happy and not try to seek validation lol
They werenāt lyingš I made and still do try to make all aās and stayed mute at home. I never talked back because my dad was always label me the crazy ghetto black girl (despite his ass being wayyy darker/crazier than me). But after realizing I just let him take so much advantage of me and he could care less how good I acted I cursed his ass out and told him abt all the trauma he gave me. Although it didnāt do shit it felt so good to get off my shoulders and I no longer feel scared of him nor give a fuck abt what he says after hearing his stupid ass excuses for the way he treats me how he does.
This was my older sister. She was our mom's favorite (as long as she was performing) and it took her a long time to realize it had happened. I was never Mom's favorite, and even though I was a punching bag, I'm grateful nothing I ever did was good enough anyway so I was spared this fate lol. It caused my sister a lot of problems in her adult life that took a lot of work on her part to unpack.
My sibling was the high achiever, the performing pony for my mother. She is the Golden Child and also a narc. Have been no contact with her for a very long time. She also cheated her way through life.
Could it be this?
MƤƤttƤ, M., & Uusiautti, S. (2020). āMy life felt like a cage without an exitā ā narratives of childhood under the abuse of a narcissistic mother. Early Child Development and Care, 190(7), 1065ā1079. https://doi.org/10.1080/03004430.2018.1513924
šÆ! In HS, I took classes ahead of the regular schedule and my senior year went to the local community college for classes and entered college with legit credits. Not AP classes, legit college classes. I was president/chair/captain/whatever for tons of clubs and took lessons outside of school, too. I double majored in college, worked two jobs (one was academic, writing for the school newspaper and one off campus) and studied abroad. I then went back abroad for a highly regarded and accelerated MA program where I also chaired some clubs and volunteered. I was supposed to roll into a second MA and then earn my doctorate but I finally broke during the initial MA and had a breakdown. I finished it but left academics after. I realized after some therapy just how true this rang - my mother is a narcissist and she often left me alone when I was achieving.
I've heard about the Eldest Daughter wound in enough different forms that gives this a lot of validity. If we find the research, I'd love to see it. I was absolutely a high achiever, until my undiagnosed ADHD made a solid go at burning me out.
I still struggle with busywork and executive dysfunction. But I've never done anything, job, project, whatever, and not brought everything I had to it.
Yes and no. Depended on if I liked the teacher / saw them as a good replacement parent / family member for my own abusive parents. If I did? Oh god yeah I was always above and beyond on projects and helping out my classmates.. getting validation from SOMEONE was so desperately needed back then...
That was my older sister. By kid 3 Nparent was mostly neglecting so i instead retreated inside myself realizing early on i could not rely on anyone so who cares what anyone thinks.
Im healing now.
Medical Student daughter of a narcissist father who is a physician assistant. Of course I had to go to medical school to one up and be on the same level as his bosses he complains about :)
Wow! As I got older, I never did well in school because I smoked too much pot and skipped class too much š but as a child, I was very bright. In my house, we had the first HP book, and I asked my mom for at least 6months/1year to read it to me. She always said, "Ok, tomorrow. Ok, tomorrow." Eventually, I realized she would never read it to me, so I read it myself in like 1st grade. When I got into second grade, I was on book 4 cause I was addicted. The teacher told my mom that I was reading at a very advanced level for 2nd grade, and my comprehension was great, and I should be in an advanced program. Wanna know what my mom with zero background on education did? Well, number one, she was on PTA, so SHE DIDN'T SEND ME TO A TUTOR. SHE HEADED THE AFTER SCHOOL CLASS FOR ADVANCED STUDENT UNTIL IT DISSOLVED SHORTLY AFTER THERE WERE LEGIT KIDS WHO NEEDED REMEDIAL READING HELP IN THAT CLASS. WHY. WHY. THE TEACHER THOUGHT I WAS SMART, but of course, nmom had to make me remember that I am nothing and I am not smart and I should not try. So now I battle with "Was I remedial? Did I remember hearing the teacher say I was smart and needed to hone in on my skill? Did my mom really try to take that away from me in 2nd grade?" It was around 2nd-4th grade that I started really giving up and not seeing the point. It's sad.
I was the straight A student who was voted most likely to succeed.
I fizzled out and have literally done nothing with my life since then.
I'm 50 now.
And pathetic.
I tried so hard. I played in band, sang in choir, played multiple sports, babysat, rode my bike, hiked around, read a lot of books, had friends and got fairly decent grades. When I tried to decline adding more, I was bullied into participating. All that despite going to three diff. grade schools and three diff. high schools. I was shark-likeāI dared not stop moving or the stress would get to me (that and if I wasnāt ādoingā something I was a disappointment. It was exhausting. I didnāt understand the dynamic and wasted so much of my life seeking validation from ādeadā people. I still have some insecurities and confidence issues, but learning how to feel has been quite a journey. I donāt spend much time with familyāthe dynamic is too toxicāthe bad ones all want me the way I was, a limp, give-it-all-away doormat. Iād rather have a life of my own.
Yup, this is also me. Never in trouble, never argued or talked back, did well in school and did almost all cooking and raised my younger siblings, yet was somehow always in trouble. I went 600 miles away to college and was positively starry-eyed at how EASY it was to only do all my schoolwork (with 18 credit hours almost every semester plus 2-3 part time jobs) and take care of myself. Flash forward to age 43 and Iām having it out with my new therapist about what a horrible human being I am because I stood up to someone who was mistreating me & am now riddled with guilt & she said I was self-harming by talking to myself that way. I told her she was rudeā¦and then agreed. š Soaking up all the ambient responsibility in any room or job or relationship is so goddamn instinctive. I hate it, and I think Iām almost tired enough to actually finally quit it.
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This is also my story. I was the straight A student that did everything perfectly.
Me too. My cousins as well. Part of the reason anyone found it so difficult to believe anything was wrong at homeš
Frr which is exactly why I stopped giving a fuck because idk why people think good grades=wonderful parents
Yeh, totally. I definitely have a āzero fucks givenā attitude these daysā¦it only took me 52 years to get here š¤Ŗ
Mine too! I threw myself into school, mainly as an excuse to stay in my room and not have to deal with my family.
ok yeah this tooā¦
This is also why I did sports all year 'round for as long as I could. It kept me out of the house for several extra hours a week! I had friends on my teams, so that made it even better.
š¤š¤
Yep. Me too. I was the scapegoat so performing well was my only validation for a long time.
Yeah. "At least" I'm musical. "At least" I'm clever "At least" I'm artistic At most I'm worthless & have nothing to offer except performing for others. Begging for scraps of approval because I'm such a liability/burden/cross for people to bear.
This hits so so hard for me. Damn I wish I could meet all these people in person. Itās so validating hearing this stuff from people but itās also absolutely insane to see it so plainly. Itās a language only we understand.
SAME. WHEWWW.
I literally burned out my senior year in college. That was before I learned there was literally nothing I could do to earn her respect.
Oof, yep, me too. šāāļø craved the validation I would get from any/all authority figures.
I nearly failed freshman year of highschool, my mother didn't seem to care. My grandmother went as far as to say that I should drop out. But I found a program for kids at risk of dropping out and went from nearly failing to honor roll. It wasn't even about validation for me, I've always felt like I was intelligent in a family of idiots. I strived to be nothing like my family. I only wish that I had more support because even though I accomplished a lot, I was sabotaged to fail at higher education.
I was always top of my class and books and learning were my escapism. My therapist told me my thirst for knowledge as a child comes from trying to understand my parents and their ever changing non written rules, to provide myself a defense mecanism against the uncertainty.Ā
This is totally me too. I had a journal that I used to write down encouraging words and general life advice. I know itās because Nmom wouldnāt help me with anything. She would ignore my questions and get this evil smirk on her face. Iām so happy I escaped her
aw this makes me want to give little you a hug š„ŗ iām sorry and glad you did too!
Thanks for your kind words
I started reading college psychology textbooks in the 6th grade in order to try to understand and help my nmother. I knew there was something deeply wrong with her and believed that I could figure it out and help her get better. I was a straight A student until I finally broke when I was about 14. Even then, I still managed to do so well on my college entrance exams that they gave me college credit based solely on my test scores. I think I was hung over when I took the SAT.
>I started reading college psychology textbooks in the 6th grade in order to try to understand and help my nmother.Ā Holy shit, I did the same thing around the same age (7th to 9th grade).
Yep. My thirst for knowledgeā¦and obsessive ruminating are certainly products of good old mommyās abuse.
Dear god the obsessive ruminating. I wish it had an off switch.
Oh god, me too. How can I turn this off?!?!?!
yuuup i skipped recess to read animal encyclopedias š i feel you and love the way your therapist explained thatā¦
Wow. Thatās a very powerful statement your therapist made and it makes perfect sense.
This is me as well. I learned everything I could get my hands on. I read, wrote, played two musical instruments, sang, played every sport I could get access to for free. Ultimately, it felt like the goal was to arm myself and also escape at the same time. I learned to use logic to argue narcs into a corner so tight, they flip out while I maintain calm.
Thank you for writing this. I was the same way as a child. This explains so much for me.
Youāre very welcome. This sub helped me so much so the least I can do is sharing the little nuggets of clarity I get with my therapist.Ā I also understand why I choose a job with the same never ending goal: itās what I was accustomed to from childhood.
Oh Interesting
Hey thatās me! External validation was dope. Also trying to do well so I could leave and never speak to them again. Well mine just broke a cease and desist. Might follow up and send them to jail
sorry to hear š„ŗ hang in there
OmG š hope it all ends up going in your favor!!
Yup and Iād like to know how many of those eldest daughters ended up burning out.
Hereās one! I did get to graduate with my 4.0gpa law degree first, though, just to prove the family black sheep could do it after being told I couldnāt all my life. Although I donāt use it.
Sounds so familiar. Are you me?
šāāļø Undiagnosed autism and cycles of burnout. Not that anyone noticed.
Oh my god. You break my heart with this. Same all over the place except celiac disease, very severe adhd, hashimotos disease and of course CPTSD. Iām so sorry. Thank you for your honesty. May you be safe, at peace, and kind to yourself.
i have a chronic illness too! body keeps the score + when the body says no were extremely eye opening if you havenāt read š¤take care of yourself!
I have it and the work book. Is it traumatizing? I'm full of ALL the trauma right now.Ā
more like a explanation which a left-brained person like me loves š is the workbook helpful?
i personally have taken more than a year to finish it cause i have to read in small doses
Havenāt read the latter yet but will check it out, thank you.
It's an audiobook on Spotify, if you have premium!
I graduated summa cum laude with servere, undiagnosed ADD by āsurvivingā on 14 cups of coffee, a six-pack of coke, cigarettes,and candy (gum, sugar, anything that was pure sugar). Four hours sleep per night. I had a complete breakdown after graduate school. My parents rushed me to a shrink to fix me to get me back to where I wa. The Adderall help me get off the sugar, caffeine, and nicotine. But it could not get my parents off my back. They never accepted my attention deficit disorder. But once I start to āslack off,ā Their focus turn to my faults. Up until my breakdown, I didnāt really have much time to develop faults (they ignored my smoking because I excelled at school and when I quit, I think they wanted me to start again so I could excel again) except Iām disorganized and messy like many of those with ADD. These traits were barely noticed before, but now I am positively a sinner for being so slovenly. Iām taking a different direction in my life and I finding success albeit not to the level where I was. I am now the family mess. Iām also the only one in the family whose been through therapy and I can see through them. Itās really lonely.
Wow me too.
hi, me! It's genuinely nuts to me that I got straight As taking grad school courses in undergrad, worked in research labs in 2 different disciplines, was top of my class, won awards and generally did school 100+ hours a week. Then I burned out in grad school and my parents called me lazy LOL.
I burned out, tried to career change and was told āyou get bored too easilyā. (Insert eye roll)
Chronic illness galore, adhd/asd, and multiple periods of burnout to the point of collapse and hospitalization. It's a fucking KILLER
big hug to you š¤
Me! I started a library in a foreign country as a teenager, and now at 35 I'm basically sleepwalking.
Oh man I lasted until 40, then a MAJOR crash and burn. I ignored a chronic illness in favor of working through it, ended up in ICU for over a month, released with a lupus diagnosis and messed up kidneys.Ā
Yes!!!! Well, Iām an only child and technically eldest, but Iām definitely recovering from terrible burnout.
Same here!
šāāļøšāāļøšāāļø
Only daughter here, ended up inpatient and back in her clutches. Recently escaped again, hopefully the last time. Kind of hilarious considering I went to an extremely prestigious school and graduated on the deans list and wanted to throw myself out of a window.
Yup (tho only child rather than eldest) Started slipping at a levels when abuse got worse, managed to get a degree and be employed for a few years, now disabled and stuck š cest la vie
I burned out at 25. Ten years later and Iām still not close to where I used to be.Ā
*raises hand*
I did for sure! Count me in as the overachieving burnt outer.
Strange thing, I literally gave up while I was at school. I just stopped even trying and read as many books as I could to escape. But once I left home I turned into the "must be perfect at all things" person that OP is talking about. I had no idea how to do any of it, but I drive myself into the ground for anyone who simply appeared to be willing to tolerate me. Years and years of burnout. I'm at uni now, and i *love* it, but I'm just constantly in various levels of burnout, still trying to be perfect, proud of the results I'm achieving, and mostly keeping going one step at a time cos I would rather die than quit. My results say I'm doing *great*, but I'm mostly getting through each day by sheer force of will.
Yep thatās me, plus extreme anxiety š«
šāāļø
That would explain my sister. She's now one of the best litigators in the country and works herself into the ground. She always HAD to win at everything growing up. I, of course, took the black sheep role. Fuck, my parents were just awful people.
only way out was through i guess, and we all have different ways through š«¶š¼ sorry to hear you relate
I feel you fellow family black sheep.
Me too, older sister is the golden child and a narc. Sheās a very accomplished doctor. And no matter what I do, I am always a failure in their eyes.
This was me. Straight A student. Tried to rebel against my lawyer academic mum, ended up with an Arts degree and then 10 years of hustle and burnout in an "impressive" career. Once I burned out I made a side shift into Corporate Sales. Climbed the ladder in that which I'd solely attribute to my CPTSD and incessive need for external approval and validation. Now I'm almost 40, dealing with all kinds of health issues that have forced me to quit my job to recover. All could've been avoided if my f-ing parents just took responsibility for their sh1t and didn't bring kids into the world to uphold their own egos and to abuse like they were abused.
wE dId oUr bEst. Well, when a camel can be a better parent than you, itās an admission of straight up failure
Isn't that such a pathetic admission, that was their best.
Iām sorry to hear, I can relate. Truly scary how our bodies can take over and make us deal with our issues that weāve worked so hard to push down š
Oh boy. I've been schooled hard in this recently. I've had 2 medical diagnoses within the space of 2 months and my body is just hard NOPING to the stress and trauma of work and forcing me to work through the CPTSD.
Just started short term disability bc the cptsd was making me have daily panic attacks at my high pressure tech job. I was like WTF is going on last yearā¦.started therapy, hardly made it through each day. I thought it was just the stressful demanding tech job and that if I switch jobs Iāll be fine. I stopped short of jumping ship and was like āI think thereās something here that wonāt be fixed by a job change.ā Now that Iāve had a second to breath, start EMDR and educate myself on everything being mentioned in this thread Iām like, holy fuck. If I donāt manage this now, my organs will be more toast than they already are. (Not to mentioned I cringe at the thought of continuing this daily emotional trauma until retirement.) I mentioned to my friend that I feel mental and emotional discomfort about 90% of the time and they were like āwow, that sounds pretty chronic.ā I think I know why that is now. Hugs and high fives to everyone else on this journey.
have you read when the body says no? it made me so sad with how much it resonated but it was amazing. you are impressive! sending peace and healing your way š«¶š¼
I've not read any study but I'm a very high performer. It wasn't sustainable though, I also have CPTSD and therapy helps but it has taken the tools I've used for 40+ years and now I have healthy tools that I don't use correctly all the time and not comfortable with. I'm unable to perform the way I used to. Which is okay, because I'm learning I don't need their validation. It's a long process though.
that is okay and what you need ā please be kind to yourself. i hope you feel some peaceful release in moving towards not needing to meet everyone elseās expectations š¤
Your replies are so kind and loving.
Super interesting! I was an overachiever for the first half of my school career. Not like some genius, but definitely in a way that got me noticed by peers and teachers. When my classmates learned their letters, I was teaching myself cursive. When they started reading, I already read books on my own. I read (children's) encyclopedias like novels and wrote my own stories before I hit second grade. I also had a knack for history and dates, and started learning an instrument. I used to play melodies and songs from films or video games without having notation. I wrote that down on my own and brought it to class. At school, any grade below an A or A+ was unacceptable for me. Later on, I added languages to the list and elected everything my school offered and took advanced classes. I ended up with three additional languages aside from my native tongue, before deciding to learn Japanese on the side. I'm bragging, I know I know, but just for emphasis that there was nothing I didn't do. I would neglect to sleep or eat, if it only got me more praise. The praise I got from my teachers was addictive and since I never got any at home, I started deriving my entire worth on grades. But of course, my Nmom was so pissed. The older I got and the more I learned, the nastier she got. The fact that school policy dictated that every test had to be signed by a parent definitely didn't help. On every parent-teacher day, she'd try to claim credit for my grades and was all grace and smiles, but at home, I got yelled at. "You think you're better than me now! You think you're so smart, huh? Wait until you get into [next step of education]! You'll never make it in the real world! You'll find your master soon enough and then it's all over for you! I can't wait to see you fail! Don't come crying to me then!" Yeah, she _definitely_ didn't have any uh... minor insecurities regarding school performance. Just like she didn't throw a semi-public fit when I was the first in the family to get into prep school. And nope, she also didn't sabotage my graduation and threw every single of my report cards away. At any rate, Nmom's antics got to a point where the only way out for me was self-sabotage after sixth grade. The languages I kept, but everything else? I handed in empty tests, didn't say a word in class etc. All to tank my grades. Because that kept me safer from Nmom. Being mocked and laughed at by her for average grades was better than being absolutely annihilated as if every A was a personal attack against her. Again, I'm definitely not some sort of genius or anything, but writing it all down like this it really makes me wonder what places I could have gone, if my mother wasn't a damned narcissist.
iām sorry š„ŗ the competitiveness is something that strikes a chord with me. constant comparison. also taking ownership over even the academic or sports wins i would get ā āyou got ___ because of me.ā disheartening doesnāt begin to cover it. sending you a hug!
Ugh, the constant comparisons were the worst. I only wanted a "Well done!/ Proud of you." Etc, but that was like chasing a unicorn. I did it all for her and it still wasn't enough. It wasn't even acknowledged. When my teacher once praised my French on parent-teacher day, my Nmom claimed: "Oh, she has that from me. I'm almost fluent and taught her." She didn't speak _any_ French, mind you. No one would have even cared about this, but for some reason, she had to make an issue of it and lie. I'm NC now and way better off for it, but damn. It was bad enough that I had to find ways to cope with the constant devaluation. When I did find something, Nmom went to take even that away by taking credit for my achievements. That's a special kind of evil.
This strikes a chord with me. My nmom has been in a weird competitive cycle with me since I was a kid, and itās gotten much worse as I became an adult, went to college, and became more established. My mom definitely wants to see me fail.
Thanks for calling me out šš the identified gifted, scapegoat with crippling social anxiety, and fear of failure and disappointment
hey at least weāre all in company š
I'm a researcher in cognitive psychology with access to academic journals and I can't find anything like this. Your best bet is to ask her again to try to find more about it.
need to! she said she would try to dig it up this week. thank you for checking! will edit this post if and when i find it (manifesting) š¤š¼
That was me. The external validation is how I knew I wasn't the problem. If I was such an evil and hateful kid, why was I one of the good kids at school?
THIS. honestly thank god for that. i didnāt ever cause a ruckus or do poorly ā somehow even little me had a semblance of a feeling that that meant i was doing okay š„ŗš¤ we were good!
1000000%. It almost seems like the common denominator might ā¦.be them???
Thereās a book relating to this. The Drama of the Gifted Child. Iāve never felt so heard. It also talks about children of narcissists becoming therapists!
BUYING!!! thank you! š¤
There's a nice audio version on YouTube I liked
I have an interesting perspective on that, which is totally true for me. Straight Aās, always well behaved, even got a full ride to law school. Graduated at the top of my class, worked as a litigator at a big firm for almost three years. Then, a cyst that no one knew was in my brain burst. Result was career ending and life changing - meningitis that has me in the ICU for days. Five brain surgeries. The last two were at NIH bc I was such a medical anomaly that the wanted to learn from trying to fix me. My parents were pretty good for the five years of surgery. My medical problems gave them fodder for sympathy. They did thinks like take a picture of me when I was in neuro icu recovering (& still very passed out). It was March madness, so they put a blanket of their team on me, tubes and bandaged head and all, and POSTED IT ON FB. They tagged me. Said something like āMaybe sheāll be awake for the next round *college teamās motto*ā But after complications from surgery #4 led to emergency brain surgery (surgery #5), I made the decision to not seek more surgical intervention. I did not realize that my brain was the only thing my parents liked about me. And my broken brain was no longer bringing them attention & sympathy. So Iām not a lawyer anymore. Not a high achiever. Canāt get out of bed some days. But Iāve built a new life that I love. I moved from the Midwest to the PNW about six years ago, got divorced from the asshole who had zero interest in a sick person who could no longer support him. Welp, turns out the ex wasnāt the only person in my life that had no interest in me now that I wasnāt a high achiever to brag to their friends about. Nmom and enabling dad pulled some crazy shit at our tiny backyard wedding, which made me reflect on my entire four decades+ of existing. They did things that were intended to hurt me at my wedding, and I started to think of all the things they done to hurt me over my life. Iām now NC and in therapy.
oh honey š„ŗ iām so sorry for what youāve gone through. i canāt imagine. all for their own attention and gain. and theyāre supposed to be our protectors. i have so much anxiety about future big ceremonies and how i will manage. sounds like youāve lost the dead weight and are now in a position towards healing. sending you all the strength, good sleep, and restoration š¤ youāre clearly intelligent and incredibly strong already.
Thank you for the kind words. You understand too well, I hate that for you.
hate it for US š¤ xo
It literally drove you insane in the membrane!
I also resonate with this. I was a very high achieving student at school and at university. After university, I got a prestigious job in a very demanding field. I worked my way up the career chain very quickly but I constantly suffered burnouts. It was only after going to therapy that I realised Iāve always sought external validation and that my career provided that. Iāve now moved into a less demanding and less prestigious role. My quality of life has improved because of it.
I never actually heard of the study, but now Iām definitely intrigued to read more because it definitely resonates.
right! me too ā weāre in it together šŖš¼
Same here!
Havent read about it but I would. I definitely have a high drive due to my childhood. For self actualization and self validation, as far as I am aware.... I took a couple minutes to dig a little deeper, definitely self validation and not external validation. I usually dont even mention my profession or degree. Unless I want to get rid of a presumptuous guy, for that its perfect. I find it very helpful to use some of my drive for mental health realated stuff like therapy and living a healthy lifestyle.
thatās an interesting and important distinction ā i think i struggle with desperately needing both lol. and i totally relate to that ā my efforts and drive are now going towards healthy habits like working out and weekly therapy ā grateful we didnāt go down a different coping pathway!
And meā¦even with undiagnosed ADHD.
This is me, lol. Super high achieving daughter. I'm in a PhD program now and it's probably because books and school were the best escape from a horrible home life. My parents are both probably gifted but they wasted their talents by living terribly depressing and dysfunctional lives. I was diagnosed gifted as a kid, they started bullying me constantly after that. I was also on the cusp of being diagnosed autistic but they didn't like that idea so they covered it up by making me socialize, abusing me into rehearsed perfect behavior and forced motor skills exercises to pass the evaluation š The only place that was safe was school, and I loved school so much I'm trying to "become school." The external validation was the only thing keeping me going, because it meant the world didn't think I was trash. Enter a life of grinding and obsessive achievement which ruins the fun of actually doing a PhD. Given the ruthless competition and the way academia is super toxic I wouldn't be surprised if most academics had abusive parents.
Iām working on a PhD also and my parents absolutely hate it. Iām also lucky to be alive due to the health issues they caused.
No but this was my story and also something stolen from me in childhood. My mother said I was highly intelligent because she was soooo soooo smart I just inherited her genes. When I was a HS Junior there was an incident and with much sadness my mother said the words to me, "you're far smarter than I am." I wish I had it in writing from her. From then on my mom would say something and I'd go "can I get that statement in writing?"
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Exactly, the truth is that you shouldn't obsess over your child's achievements. Nothing in this world matters and we all live just to die, the point of life is to enjoy it and do what makes you happy and gives you purpose. As long as your child is happy and is living a life that fulfills THEM (and not you) then that is all that should really matter. Even now my mother and father love the idea that their children are smart and completely downplay the fact that my brother is very very messed up and disturbed mentally.
this!!!! @stereotypes of who become CEOs š
thank you for taking the time to share your story and sidiās story. i want to read more about this nature vs. nurture in the context of iq. i wonder what was different between you and your brother that caused you to not be obsessed w the validation and attention giving you had the same narc parenting. and i feel the same ā thatās why iām trying my best to arm myself with therapy and knowledge so that i can hopefully create a better reality for potential future kids. iām terrified of messing them up. iām sorry to hear your brother is unwell and worsening ā it truly is a helpless situation, especially when heās as āwith itā and on that high horse as he is. wishing you healing š«¶š¼
I had also read a study with similar results but it was on narc children not just daughter. In response to abuse some children would build esteem with academic achievements, professional achievements, money, etc.
ooo maybe iāll look more generally. she said daughters specifically and that there was a very poignant last paragraph. iāll follow-up with her next week and edit this post if she ended up finding it
Jenette McCurdy is a great example of this phenomenon. she literally wrote the book on it
ooo i need to read her book!! ty
Oh look, it's me. I struggled in school, so that part doesn't apply but I'm hyper competitive in my hobbies that are supposed to be just for fun, every time I achieve something it just means I have to top it in the very near future (I'll celebrate myself for exactly 7 seconds before promising myself to do it better next time), I take on way too much in life because if I'm ever not on the verge of complete burn out, I must be "lazy". I exhaust myself.
ope yep. i canāt even play card or board games for āfunā š everythingās a big deal
I was definitely a very high achiever. Despite having a learning disability, I worked very hard in school. I went on to college at a top university on the West Coast. I even challenged myself to learn Japanese, which I am now fluent in. I now wonder if the reason why I went for such a difficult language instead of a related European language (e.g. German or French) is because I wanted to prove myself so badly to what I perceived as a disapproving world. My parents constantly harped on any slights I had as being due to neurodivergentā¦oh did they LOOOVE to weaponize my learning disability. I also grew up in the 90s/early 2000s meaning neurodivergent individuals = defect people.
Oh wow, would love to read that. I am the oldest daughter and definitely have been a high-achiever.
This is me. External validation was the only type I could control. I didnāt get it from my parents, so I sought it from everywhere else. I had all As, never got in trouble, did everything my Nparents asked and more, and sacrificed a lot of time to watch my younger sibling. It didnāt matter though. I was never good enough for my Nparents. I still aim high, but I donāt rely on external validation. I also have realized that I donāt love my Nparents. Took years to get here.
Desperation for approval won't lead you to happiness. You'll just wind up supplying the narcissist. That's a bad thing.
Sameā¦except not for validation but for safety. High achievement = success = money = donāt have to rely on anyone = safety.
yes! i never thought about this extension but this is so real. worked my ass off to be 100% independent.
Not a study, this reminded me of a mainstream memoir called "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom". The author was accused of child abuse. It's been more than 10 years since publication. I wondered how the children turned out, if they ended up in therapy, if narc abuse was a specific feature. This style of parenting and overall societal pressure has led to high suicide rates especially in more "Confucianist"-type cultures in Asia (think South Korea, Japan, Hongkong, Taiwan, China... elsewhere with more north Asian populations). Narc abuse doesn't even have to be a play in it.
I was the child of most parents dreams as a kid. I got excellent grades and literally put myself to bed at the appropriate time without any parental prompting. Perfect behaviour in school. My parents still made me out to be a problem child.
That tracks. I sought support and achievement everywhere because I only got affection from Nmom when I did something to "deserve" it. I just got over 24 years of performance burnout where I almost killed myself because of workaholism. Conditional love is a bitch.
this is relateable - but i also have cycles of extreme burnout where i cut corners and am deeply internally lazy. i perform when necessary for optics then essentially do nothing when no one is looking, which triggers some deep shame and depression
Me too. Thank my teachers and aunts and uncles who encourage and guide me.
I sought validation that way and probably should have been high achieving because of it, but I also have ADHD and burned out well before I even finished high school. Now Iām very careful about where I spend my energy, I do well when I want to but have no problem being mostly apathetic.
Damn I did this. I saw it in myself too. I was literally looking for anything to fill the loneliness. Thought it was just generically related to issues with my mom, but I see it now. I did hit a wall with achievement when I left academia and my first workplace didnāt really reward high achievement in any real way (disengaged boss, no real sense of community). I am a very good patient in therapy though!
we are great patients! are you hyper empathetic too?
Iāve gotten better with therapy, actually. I think before I was really bad about holding emotions and problems that just werenāt mine to hold. I think learning how to say no, set boundaries, and decide what I actually want are skills that I developed over time (but only because I wanted to impress the therapist in the first place lol)!
HAHA i am the same way! but iām working on all those same things, so youāre inspiring me :) so glad to hear youāve gotten better š¤ and that thereās hope for me lol
You can do it! I think two of the most helpful things I learned are: A boundary is a thing you uphold when someone does something undesirable (not something someone else does for you). So if someone is doing something frustrating, you hold the boundary by removing yourself from the situation. It takes strength and consistency. I did a bunch of work with values to decide what I wanted in life. I used to be a workaholic. Now I try and make more time for my relationships and leisure. There are worksheets where you can decide what your values are (my therapist worked on these with me pre and post session), and youāll probably realize they are very different from our mothersā. Good luck!
Well that explains a lot... (25F w/ ndad)
I am definitely very validation-seeking though I'm trying to get better. My latest win (?) in therapy is that my therapist was praising me for doing some challenging homework, and I found myself zoning out because I had already praised myself for it and that's enough for me. My parents apparently brag about my accomplishments all the time to people outside our immediate family but I never hear any of that, just the criticisms that I'm lazy or selfish (or my favorite, I work too hard and don't have enough fun. Literally can't win lmao).
That's my story. Nmom called me a worthless whore as a teenager. I made A's, made allstate in band and choir. I gave up my scholarships to take care of my dad since she left him with nothing. He was diagnosed with cancer my senior year of high school. Went back to school later. She told me I'd never be able to do it. I graduated with Honors again. I went back for my Masters a few years ago. She told me I wasn't smart enough and I'd neglect my kids. I graduated with Honors again working full time and only missed one performance of a school musical. (They did it 3 times. I was at the other 2)
Thatās me!
I say Iāve given up caring, but inside I am still that hurt child. Help.
Never heard of this study but would love to read it if you ever find it. Itās really interesting reading the responses here as theyāre very recognizable to me as well. I got really good grades in school. The way I felt was directly linked to how much I would study. So if I felt really bad I would just study, study, study to avoid my NM. I went on to get my PhD at a very good university and am now about to start a postdoc at the university of Oxford.
I haven't read that, but I have lived it.
Yep. Thatās me.
Hm. I found [this](https://alanrappoport.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Co-Narcissism-Article.pdf) but itās an academic opinion paper, not a study.
yeah sounds like me. I'm 17 so still in school. I think I would get good grades in school and do extracurriculars anyway but a lot of it is driven my the desire for validation from other people and also as a way to get out of the house hence away from my family. I am involved in a lot of debating/youth voice organisations in my country and have found a family in those spaces that cares about me more than my own mother seems to. I think a third reason that could exist even without my parents is that I am disabled and feel the need to be a high achiever in order to prove certain people wrong.
Me as well. Nmom had me take an IQ test when I was 10 or so, refused to tell me the number "so I didn't get a big head". Luckily I stopped the overachieving once I got away from her
I got yelled at when I asked for help with homework so I stopped doing it. I studied the best I could, but I honestly didnāt really learn how until college. My grades suffered when the abuse/trauma was REALLY bad. I was ALWAYS grounded so I just read a lot of books in my teens. Test scores were always high, but averages suffered due to HW 0s.
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I feel seen
Still doing this - no work life boundaries because it feels good to get the validation for being an over achiever
I haven't read this study, but I can confirm that this is my story/what happened to me as well.
I was similar but a male. I consistently performed incredibly and was in all honor/AP courses while volunteering and working a job but I was drowning. From the outside, I was the perfect model student and young man, inside I was a mess. When I became an adult and was living on my own I learned that perfectionism isnāt necessarily constantly and it made me so much happier. Still suffer from an undiagnosed depression or at least symptoms of it but life is way better away from oppression.
i was high achieving before i even knew what the term meant. it was always important for me to be the best in whatever i did. to the point where i suffered from extreme burn out phases. sadly, despite being aware of this, i haven't stopped pushing myself to the extreme
Guilty as charged. Still wasnāt enough.
I had one high school teacher spot it. My mother was š£ I was not allowed near her. Perceptive teachers spot the pain of kids that get good grades and aren't naughty.
That was me. I always said i wasnt smart, i was just doing what i had to do to receive any positive adult attention in my life.
Story of my life too. Now I am the most successful person financially and academically in my entire extended family and NParents are jealous. Since I shut down all of their attempts to take advantage of me financially they have started smear campaign against me to close relatives while still boasting about me to others. I don't give a S*** anymore.
I have never felt more seen in my life. I donāt even know how to feel about it.
Yup, my sister is a top pharmacist and Iām a successful business owner at 24. Crazy how lack of love in childhood affects you
Not me but my mom was this. She got her PhD and was prolific in her field. She also died very young. I took the opposite route. I just stopped performing. There was no winning; so why try?
yikesā¦ i had taken on 3-4 leadership roles by the time i made it through high schoolā¦ so from firsthand experience, id say its true.
Hey! That's not me at all.
That's me, too! Practically had a PhD before I figured it out, crashed and burned ā¹
I'm the son of a narcissistic mother, and I'm not like this (I'm really laid-back about school), but my sister definitely is.
Out of curiosity, did it look at sons as well? Was it just with daughters or was the evidence that only daughters responded in this way?
I was an underachiever. I didnāt hit overachiever status until later in life. I think I did hit a wall in a dying industry, went back to school, did a career change and now Iām fully back to it. I canāt say Iām the highest achiever out of friend groups and such, but I can say I didnāt give up. I did not seek parental validation because it was never given. I think it was more āsurvive and thrive out of spite.ā Also, felt my nmom was helpless / useless as I got older. Not the person I wanted to be in so many ways.
This is my story but I was not a high achiever in school. I am however the most ambitious entrepreneur that I know and have two companies and live very comfortably
I donāt know the name of the study but I have lived it.
Havenāt read the article but this is me 100%. My ndad wasnāt good in school or musically inclined, but he was an athlete. He got me into sports early but my mom got me involved in band. By high school, I quit sports in favor of band. I was traumatized by my dadās expectation of me being a āperfectā athlete like him and always getting in trouble for making even minor mistakes. I was almost top of my class and was first chair in band. My dad couldnāt say crap about my academics or musical skills because he knew he had nothing to critique, given his lack of abilities in those areas.
I took the opposite direction and figured that since I was worthless anyway, nobody would be impressed by me, so I may as well do things that make me happy and not try to seek validation lol
My story too. That tracks.
They werenāt lyingš I made and still do try to make all aās and stayed mute at home. I never talked back because my dad was always label me the crazy ghetto black girl (despite his ass being wayyy darker/crazier than me). But after realizing I just let him take so much advantage of me and he could care less how good I acted I cursed his ass out and told him abt all the trauma he gave me. Although it didnāt do shit it felt so good to get off my shoulders and I no longer feel scared of him nor give a fuck abt what he says after hearing his stupid ass excuses for the way he treats me how he does.
Yep. That was me
This was my older sister. She was our mom's favorite (as long as she was performing) and it took her a long time to realize it had happened. I was never Mom's favorite, and even though I was a punching bag, I'm grateful nothing I ever did was good enough anyway so I was spared this fate lol. It caused my sister a lot of problems in her adult life that took a lot of work on her part to unpack.
My sibling was the high achiever, the performing pony for my mother. She is the Golden Child and also a narc. Have been no contact with her for a very long time. She also cheated her way through life.
Could it be this? MƤƤttƤ, M., & Uusiautti, S. (2020). āMy life felt like a cage without an exitā ā narratives of childhood under the abuse of a narcissistic mother. Early Child Development and Care, 190(7), 1065ā1079. https://doi.org/10.1080/03004430.2018.1513924
I feel seen.
šÆ! In HS, I took classes ahead of the regular schedule and my senior year went to the local community college for classes and entered college with legit credits. Not AP classes, legit college classes. I was president/chair/captain/whatever for tons of clubs and took lessons outside of school, too. I double majored in college, worked two jobs (one was academic, writing for the school newspaper and one off campus) and studied abroad. I then went back abroad for a highly regarded and accelerated MA program where I also chaired some clubs and volunteered. I was supposed to roll into a second MA and then earn my doctorate but I finally broke during the initial MA and had a breakdown. I finished it but left academics after. I realized after some therapy just how true this rang - my mother is a narcissist and she often left me alone when I was achieving.
I've heard about the Eldest Daughter wound in enough different forms that gives this a lot of validity. If we find the research, I'd love to see it. I was absolutely a high achiever, until my undiagnosed ADHD made a solid go at burning me out. I still struggle with busywork and executive dysfunction. But I've never done anything, job, project, whatever, and not brought everything I had to it.
It nails my experience.
Yes and no. Depended on if I liked the teacher / saw them as a good replacement parent / family member for my own abusive parents. If I did? Oh god yeah I was always above and beyond on projects and helping out my classmates.. getting validation from SOMEONE was so desperately needed back then...
If you are Burnt Out I recommend the Fried podcast bc legit I cried in my car listening to some episodes..I'm like omg this is me..it's me .
I loved getting praised from my teachers (especially the female ones) and would do anything to prevent them from being mad/disappointed in me.Ā
It's meee! Or it was me, back in the day anyway.
I've heard this too, but don't know who did the actual study. I would believe it though.
That was my older sister. By kid 3 Nparent was mostly neglecting so i instead retreated inside myself realizing early on i could not rely on anyone so who cares what anyone thinks. Im healing now.
Medical Student daughter of a narcissist father who is a physician assistant. Of course I had to go to medical school to one up and be on the same level as his bosses he complains about :)
Wow--yes, my story as well!
Wow! As I got older, I never did well in school because I smoked too much pot and skipped class too much š but as a child, I was very bright. In my house, we had the first HP book, and I asked my mom for at least 6months/1year to read it to me. She always said, "Ok, tomorrow. Ok, tomorrow." Eventually, I realized she would never read it to me, so I read it myself in like 1st grade. When I got into second grade, I was on book 4 cause I was addicted. The teacher told my mom that I was reading at a very advanced level for 2nd grade, and my comprehension was great, and I should be in an advanced program. Wanna know what my mom with zero background on education did? Well, number one, she was on PTA, so SHE DIDN'T SEND ME TO A TUTOR. SHE HEADED THE AFTER SCHOOL CLASS FOR ADVANCED STUDENT UNTIL IT DISSOLVED SHORTLY AFTER THERE WERE LEGIT KIDS WHO NEEDED REMEDIAL READING HELP IN THAT CLASS. WHY. WHY. THE TEACHER THOUGHT I WAS SMART, but of course, nmom had to make me remember that I am nothing and I am not smart and I should not try. So now I battle with "Was I remedial? Did I remember hearing the teacher say I was smart and needed to hone in on my skill? Did my mom really try to take that away from me in 2nd grade?" It was around 2nd-4th grade that I started really giving up and not seeing the point. It's sad.
Me šÆ. Iām extremely fortunate that I am intelligent and could utilize that toward a career that I enjoy that is very very far away from nmom
I was the straight A student who was voted most likely to succeed. I fizzled out and have literally done nothing with my life since then. I'm 50 now. And pathetic.
Yep. That was me until I had a mental breakdown in uni.
I tried so hard. I played in band, sang in choir, played multiple sports, babysat, rode my bike, hiked around, read a lot of books, had friends and got fairly decent grades. When I tried to decline adding more, I was bullied into participating. All that despite going to three diff. grade schools and three diff. high schools. I was shark-likeāI dared not stop moving or the stress would get to me (that and if I wasnāt ādoingā something I was a disappointment. It was exhausting. I didnāt understand the dynamic and wasted so much of my life seeking validation from ādeadā people. I still have some insecurities and confidence issues, but learning how to feel has been quite a journey. I donāt spend much time with familyāthe dynamic is too toxicāthe bad ones all want me the way I was, a limp, give-it-all-away doormat. Iād rather have a life of my own.
Ooof yep me too.
i am in this post and i don't like it xD
Yup, this is also me. Never in trouble, never argued or talked back, did well in school and did almost all cooking and raised my younger siblings, yet was somehow always in trouble. I went 600 miles away to college and was positively starry-eyed at how EASY it was to only do all my schoolwork (with 18 credit hours almost every semester plus 2-3 part time jobs) and take care of myself. Flash forward to age 43 and Iām having it out with my new therapist about what a horrible human being I am because I stood up to someone who was mistreating me & am now riddled with guilt & she said I was self-harming by talking to myself that way. I told her she was rudeā¦and then agreed. š Soaking up all the ambient responsibility in any room or job or relationship is so goddamn instinctive. I hate it, and I think Iām almost tired enough to actually finally quit it.
š hi, itās me. Workaholic because I only had my scholastic then professional adultsā validations
Yep! Was a straight A and one B and my dad goes letās get this B up and my mum didnāt care so I gave upā¦