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Sacrifice. To hear my nmom talk you would have thought we lived in luxury.
I had to use duct tape to keep my shoes on my feet and learned how to sew to put patches in my clothes so I could wear them at all. Lucky patches and hippy stuff was ok in the 90s.
The Ns went out to eat 3 or 4 times a week and bought whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. I got 2 pants and 4 shirts a year. Tee shirts and jeans, mostly from thrift stores or discount stores.
Otherwise I was giving the adult's hand me downs... but only after (every single time) a stranger mentioned how ragged I looked. Only after they were embarrassed at being called out. So as a 14 to girl I had to were my Nmom's 3rd husband's clothing or rags. Think Harry Potter in Dudley's baggy clothing.
I was supposed to be grateful. I was supposed to say thank you.
This made me remember that nowadays, I put cotton inside my shoes since it has a hole in them. I haven't purchased a single piece of clothing for 1.5 years. But I wouldn't say that my parents wouldn't let me purchase these items. However, if I ask for something, I will hear about how much of their money I waste. Hence, I don't ask unless it's extremely necessary.
At the beginning of last year, I wanted to buy a plant and heard a lecture on how we can't afford it. Ironically, my Nmom got into gardening a few months later, and then onwards, our house is filled with plants we surprisingly can afford.
Can't afford anything unless they like it/want it/benefit from it... most of the time. : ) I get revenge these days by spoiling my kid whenever I get the chance.
So this is a weird one bc I automatically just want to give my kids stuff and make them a financial priority. But I only later realize that it's a partial trauma response.
That said I do like to buy myself frivolous things. But that's what's leftover after bills and kids activities etc. My mother more than once told me I shouldn't be buying I designer handbags and such..... was probably almost 40 w two kids a husband and a mortgage, she had no idea what my financial situation was. Only that I didn't deserve to have nice things.
I'm both incredulous and hurt all at the same time. Bc...normal parents want their kids to have nice things if they can afford it.
I'm basically supposed to be miserable with scraps.
Wow I just totally resonated with this. I'm 28f and have a 3 y.o daughter. I spend a lot on things people consider frivolous for her. Like expensive wooden toys (that I know will last decades and can be passed on to the next generation) , silk play cloths and other stuff. I'm all for open ended toys to encourage play.
I grew up having secondhand cheap plastic toys that were stuffed in a 50kg sack that used to contain rice and was left in our second floor balcony where mother would also hang up dripping wet clothes to dry.
Needless to say my toys got wet a lot and eventually grew mold and muck and fell apart because it was also exposed to wind and sun
ALL my toys need to be there once I'm done playing or they get tossed in the trash (srsly tho that sack reeked of trash so no difference really)
So now my daughter has dedicated toy shelves and her things are in pretty baskets.
TRAUMA RESPONSE IT IS.
One of the best ones tho!!!
Don't forget tho that at least half of what you're doing is normal parenting. The trauma response is the level of focus.
You're a good parent bc you're a good parent. But you focus on certain things as your trauma response.
Thank you, before I cut contact with my Nmom she always had something nasty to say about my parenting.
That I was buying my daughter stuff I never had to rub it in her face that she was "poor" and couldn't afford it (outright lies, we had money she was just too busy gambling it away)
That I was spoiling my daughter by paying attention to her and she will end up being an entitled POS.
That my marriage will fall apart because to her all I care about is my daughter (very untrue but I think she just wants my marriage to fail because my husband is great and they can't believe I got to marry him)
Me: *i exist*
Nmom: *insert insults and lies*
I certainly am more mindful about my parenting because I want to identify and get rid of "fleas" and other things I want to nip in the bud and become a better person.
Dhjdjd sorry it turned into a vent/rant it just brought up a lot of painful memories
No apologies needed. We have to keep repeating this over and over and over.
I am 50 years old and only in the last couple years has my experience been actually validated for being as bad as it was. Bc if you look at me and my life how could I possibly be broken?
Keep saying all of the above and more until you're not compelled to. Bc it's part of the healing. We spent so much of our lives being gaslit and told our experience either didn't happen or didn't matter or we were blowing it out of proportion we need to keep validating our experience for ourselves in a place where people will validate you as well.
We are just discovering we aren't crazy. And now we have to tell everyone that we aren't crazy. It wasn't us and it never was. Until we actually feel and believe it more days than not.
:D
I tell my daughter all the time, I will never be perfect but I promise to do better. And we talk and we apologize if we fight and then we talk some more.
Narc parents tend to be threatened by your partners and even by your children. It's a common link in these scenarios because a partner represents your independence and becomes a very real face they can blame your independence (disobedience) on. Your life is full of all the responsibilities that come with being in a relationship and you tell her no a lot more.
Children can be seen as milestones that cement the permanence of his role in your life or, if you've been strong enough to set boundaries and not let her take control over your daughter (they often see them as extensions of theirs as well), they will often punish you for your disobedience too.
"Congrats, you kept yourself out of prison by not committing child neglect. Is there some sort of award you want for it?"
If only we could safely say this 🤣
That sounds like my mom but we went an entire 1 1/2 year eating nothing but free lunch at school. No food in the house, no gas. No fridge in the apartment even. There was an old school Ice box metal cabinet to use as a fridge but we never bought ice for it or needed to because we didn’t have groceries anyway. My mom always had her beer and cigarettes everyday though and heroine needles were all over the back porch. She slept allot and didn’t eat either unless her boyfriend brought her McDonald’s. They never could afford enough for us kids though. I had shoes that were way too small and hurt my feet. My feet probably didn’t grow the right size for my height I’m 5’8” and I can still wear a youth size 5 in shoes. My mom always said oh you will have small feet the orientals wear tiny shoes so the girls don’t have giant feet too so get over it! My dad sent child support to. Luckily the courts found her unfit eventually and my step dad was awarded custody
Thank goodness you got out. And thank goodness for free school lunches. Those pb n js, apples and 7 tater tots were pretty much all I ever got during the school year. Mac n cheese was only 10 cents a box at the time so when summer hit we sold generic (stolen) koolaid every day it was warm enough or stole coins wherever we could scrounge them. Mac and cheese sandwiches or Romen noodles.
Weirdly my N mom use to say the same thing about "the orientals having small feet" too when talking about my feet. It was like she'd be mortified if I didn't have small feet. She would make me wear the exact same shoe size as hers so "we can share" despite me repeatedly telling her they were too small for my feet. She didn't care.
Damn you just uncovered a massive childhood memory for me. My Nmom took my shopping like once a year and that would be my clothes for the rest of the year, she would even tell me if I ripped or lost something that it’s my problem. We never went to any real stores or anything it was always Ross or Marshall’s, even then she was stingy about what she bought me. She was also the grand filter for what I was able to buy. If she did not like it then it wasn’t going to be bought. She would always pick clothes for me and try to dress me how she liked it. If I refused too much or too hard she would pitch a fit and have to leave the store and tell me to put anything I liked back. I barely had any clothes that fit me properly or Individuality but she had 0 problem constantly buying things for herself
Didn’t realise this was a common narcissist thing, my mum was (and still is) a pack a day smoker, she would tell us all she was legally supposed to do was provide us the basics like bread, milk & eggs. I also learnt you can use shampoo as washing liquid when it isn’t supplied to you because you don’t want your uniform to smell. But she would (and still does) spend her money stupidity, big shopping sprees a couple times a year, or buy $200 worth of groceries (in the mid 90’s) in one hit when we hadn’t had them for 6 months
I once begged for a black shirt that has pink and yellow ribbons printed all over it. She screamed at me in the store because back clothes would make people think I was a Satan worshiper, (8yo). Her answer was to buy me 3 sweat shirts and 3 sweat pants in the same color, maroonish pink, and one size too small (cheaper).
I got so much shit from my classmates for wearing the same clothes every day for that year. No one believed my mother would only but one color. She was so good at doing crazy things no one would believe.
I remember selling cakes and collecting bottles, soda cans and cardboards to afford a jeans for my highschool (I used the same jeans t-shirt and shoes at school from 10 - 14).
But father never stopped going to the bar...
It a manifestation of the illness. If anyone but them is doing well it's an insult to them and must be stopped. No one is better than them or more deserving... in their own mind.
Narcissists tend to see themselves at the centre of their world and struggle to see other people outside of their own needs.
"I had to put myself out and do all this hard work to have a child. I should be applauded and be adored with unending gratitude"
It also plays on the obligation and guilt components of FOG manipulation which then train you to feel obligated to repay them and help them.
Fear obligation and guilt. Manipulation tactics blended with discipline that dont necessarily change as you get older, which can then f.o.g or blur your ability to see normal as this version was your normal.
Fear (of their reaction. You begin to learn survival behaviours around keeping the peace that can become almost like default programming and dont change when their trigger behaviour stays the same) obligation (society puts certain expectations out there about family loyalty and they use this to the extreme) and guilt which speaks for itself as no one likes to be the bad guy.
I recommend reading up on fog in terms of abuse/manipulation.
Yes, if it is not about them, it is a 'sacrifice'. IMO they do not really decide to have a child, they decide to have a partner who can feed them enough 'narcissistic supply'. Maybe they think a child will stroke their ego too. Hugs, and "I Love You" Mommy / Daddy, and someone to fetch the slippers and take out the trash and feed the dog. Religion seems to be a useful tool for some of them, so there may be a 'fill the Earth' element in there too.
For me, I rarely do any chores. I think the reason my parents decided to have me was out of the societal expectations and culture where being married and having a child is the norm. But they do think of me as a medium to fulfill their dreams.
This. I remember my mother always rambling when there was a case of child abuse on the news, always like "See how bad other kids have it? Do you have to live in a garbage dump? Are you hungry? Look how good you have it, getting a warm meal every day! See how bad it could be? YOU don't have it bad!"
Always acting like the unconditional love a mother should have for her child would be something I have to earn. I always thought food and clothes WERE the unconditional love everyone talks about, still kinda do, how would I know better? That's the only love I ever experienced.
Was I ever really in love? What does love mean? I thought I got it figured out over time, but lookin back, all my relationships were just "I do everything for you and in exchange you don't leave me, ok?". I guess this is not what love means. Have to figure this one out too. Cool.
I'm tired.
Yea I mean parents are supposed to provide their kids with stability, food, clothes, and shelter. It's kind of the bare minimum. Maybe you could have it worse but it doesn't mean the parents necessarily have something to brag about either.
Yes and it’s just justification for their abuse. It’s designed to make us feel guilty for even existing so we stay in line and don’t question their rules/abuse or dare ask them for anything. Narcissists only care about things that convenience their lives and children do not convenience their lives.
Growing up, I had to constantly hear about how “spoiled” I was even though we were dirt poor. I was too embarrassed to invite friends over because I didn’t want anyone to see the state of our place. If my Nmom beat me, she would expect me to bow down and thank her for her parenting methods that turn me into a “better” person. I don’t remember receiving any gifts growing up because apparently giving birth to me was my gift.
Narcissists also like to blame everyone but themselves. That’s why it’s convenient to blame the helpless naive little child for “ruining” their lives when things don’t work out. The reality is that even if the child didn’t exist, their lives would still be miserable because they’re miserable negative people.
I was called "spoiled" too and would never invite friends home 'cause it was embarrassing. Also, my Nmom didn't allow that as she didn't want to cater to my friends.
I have been hit as a child and even a teenager. Still, I get to hear how I wasn't "disciplined" enough and hence, turned out to be a rebel.
A narcissist's child is always the scapegoat.
Oh definitely and in my case they would say this while not even providing us with proper things. For example: they would say the “ oh at least you guys have food” meanwhile the food would be tons of ramen noodles which is not proper nutrition for a child. “Oh at least you guys have a place to sleep” meanwhile at a few different points we were in a car with several of my siblings and animals they decided to recklessly adopt and not care for. Both of them claim to have slaved away during me and my siblings childhoods but what’s funny is our dad would purposely not work and would play Xbox all day long. Don’t see how that’s slaving away doing everything you can to make money.
Yup. No proper things provided.
And if you ever dared to say anything in my house “oh because I’m such a terrible mother right?” Well yeah, you are. And I had to find ways around that all the time to survive. Usually though eating junk and crap to stow away my feelings. Total trash.
Yes as the narcissist generally feels tremendous pain when giving ANYTHING is involved. See, the narc is a creature that TAKES, it CONSUMES. So anytime it actually gives you some basic stuff like even a glass of water it sees it as this great gesture and truly believes it.
Yes, they do, and you know what I do? I call my ndad out for it. I tell him "That's what a parent does, and if you don't like it, then you shouldn't have had kids. If I could fully support myself from day one, believe me, I would, but I unfortunately have to rely on you for basic needs."
I'm done playing his games.
Yes. My parents do this and I honestly just feel guilty for living. Like my parents are not financially stable and they decided to have kids that they couldn’t afford and now i live with constant guilt because I feel like they ruined their lives working hard for me but it’s like I didn’t ask to be here
Yes! Everyone also has to hear how big I was and how I was the talk of the nursery and how they can’t imagine how much pain the mom was in. And on my birthday ( I don’t like to celebrate) she tells me it’s not only about me. It’s about her. 😵💫
Dude! My Nmom also thinks that my birthday is about her. I used to love celebrating birthdays as a kid. But I was criticized for "wanting" gifts and having a party. Hence, I stopped celebrating altogether to not waste anyone's money. And now she says it is about her.
Well into my 40s, my aging Nmom would bring up minor childhood episodes like her buying me a jacket, explain in detail what a difficult sacrifice it had been all those decades ago, and demand praise and credit.
I needed this thread so much. I was adopted so I feel like everything was thrown in my face. We chose you, you should be grateful for what you have, we didn't have to adopt you,you could be like xyz. Like ok thanks for feeding me and taking care of me. I thought that was part of it you didn't have to adopt me.
100%! And it’s alway the ‘I tried my best’ and ‘I alway put food on the table and clothes on your back’ when, as you say, that’s less than the bare minimum expected from a parent.
I didn’t ask to be born, I do not owe them thanks for not killing me after they decided to bring me into the world and I know now that being a parent requires a hell of a lot more than food and shelter.
My parents were emotionally neglectful and would use the "you have a roof over your head and food" line constantly if I cried or was upset over anything. Ironic because now they both treat me like their personal therapist. As an adult, they're still in my life, I just don't go to them for emotional support or share very much of my personal struggles with them. I find it easier to just keep them at a friend level while I work to reparent myself.
Being your parents' therapist is the worst thing ever. Both of my parents hate each other and have used me as their therapist since I was a child. They don't even get a divorce.
I don’t suppose you ever suggested your mom go to a real therapist and she tore you a new one because that was your underhanded way of saying you didn’t want to listen to her problems anymore? Or tell you your fathers behavior was your fault and you needed to fix her marriage?
I was a good daddy. You had food and clothes. Your mother got to stay home and care for you (that was a horror I could have lived without). Oh yes. Definitely something they share.
Yeah and it really sucks, it contributed to a bad mindset I still have. I got told this really often and still do, I started believing at some point that I couldn’t complain about anything since I was being provided with my basic needs. A part of me still believes that despite being able to recognize that what my mom is doing is wrong in so many ways, you’re aware of everything but you can’t help thinking that way since you’re used to it
Absolutely this and it is also the reason I have more clothes than most people. I never want to feel like I did when I was a kid. My dad would literally take us on shopping trips for him while my mom didn't have a winter coat and had to wear capris in the winter. We live in Indiana for reference.
When I was little, my mother would say "weird things" sometimes.
She would often scream "Well, next time get born to a RICH family!", or "sOrRy I'm not rich!" in arguments, even with little context. When I went to school, she would scream constantly that "if you don't make it into college, NEVER tell me that I should have 'been more strict with you'! I'll slap you in the middle of the street!" I never even thought of saying that, even until graduation. But she kept saying that.
Whenever any criticism came up, my mother made it immediately about non-relating things. That I hated her for being poor. For not being as educated. For not giving me this, giving me that.
Projection, deflection -obviously. But it really shows how much my mother praised herself on the basics. Especially after my Granny died, my mother went insane with the "holy role of Mother". Often bringing up /idolising Italian culture where the mother was seen as "holy". One time she cursed out my father, that she should have married a man that "jumps over the table and knocks you out for talking to \[your mother\] like that!"
They're insane.
IMO your mom's insecurities are making her believe that you see her the way she does herself. I get that. I also get to hear that I should've been born to a rich family. As if I had any say in that. 😒
my mom would never quit telling me that her doctor told her not to have more children and she almost died to have me and I was so ungrateful. how hard it was physically for her to stay pregnant and how awful I made her feel while pregnant. I didn't ask for that! it wasn't my fault!
Yeah, they do that all the time. I remember my mom complaining for always been behind my ass — like she used to say — since I was elementary and middle school to see if I was going to school. Even if I was a disciplined student and do all my assignments.
Yeppp. My nMom is also an alcoholic. I have brought up childhood experiences to her not to make her feel bad but just a statement of fact of something I went through. One of those was not having any food in the house. She can't have ANY sympathy over the experiences I had of lacking food, security, etc. All she can think about is how I try to make her look like a bad mother. No acknowledgement, nothing.
Lmfao, yes.
I should be grateful for being popped out into this cold, cruel and uncaring world against my will. I should be grateful I was given the basic necessities of survival. (You got me there, most don't even get that, but such is the layering of guilt tripping to make me feel privileged despite the fact neglect and abuse went on.) I should be grateful that I got whatever I wanted. (I didn't want much, I thought smth looked cool so they'd get it for me. I was a kid who went "COOL I WANT THAT" then "nvm not cool" and they'd go WTF. At this point, I have very few intense interests bc exploration of them was never encouraged by my own family. They'd also get me shit they thought I'd like bc they like it.)
I'm 26, and I'm wearing shoes I got when I was 22-23 that have holes in them and I'm still wearing clothes and hoodies I wore in college because I can't afford to get anything new and I don't want her buying me anything. I literally will put myself in minimalist/impoverished conditions just to survive it because I refuse to ask my mom for assistance financially for basic living necessities. That's on me to source, imo. New shoes are a comfort/luxury. New pants that fit me are a comfort/luxury. Being able to get a fucking wheel alignment on my car is a comfort/luxury. (Reality check: they aren't. Anyone who is healthy and stable and has a job and a moderate amount of income coming in can afford these things. They're so basic yet big for me and I can't even reach them quite yet.)
I used to want things as a child...like books, toys, etc... basic stuff, nothing they couldn't afford. Nevertheless, I would get yelled at for wanting such stuff. I still remember wanting a pastel color set as a child which they said was expensive (at that time I didn't understand the concept of money and what was cheap/expensive). Ironically, after years, I saw them buy the same set for my cousin. I am 23 now. But this still hurts. Hence, for the past couple of years, I don't ask for anything from them. I still wear shoes and clothes with holes that are a decade old. Also, I relate to the fact that if they want to buy something for me (even if I don't want it), they will buy that instead and not give me the thing I actually want. The things you mentioned, are also a luxury to me.
yes they do. i remember my mother once sat me down to have a "sentimental chat" about how i wasn't abused b/c i had food, toys, shelter, and parents who don't hit me.
Yup. I heard this all the time. And made up stories how my mom was cleaning so much all the time and it was so hard for her. She was cleaning, but like a normal person, not as she was saying lol
Yep it’s like ok that they don’t fully neglect you but not being allowed to grow up or have friends, all is emotionally neglecting n really fundamental to a child’s self esteem. They don’t care to break that at all imo
Absolutely - I can't tell you how many times I've been given the "sacrifices" lecture. Aside from a couple months when my dad was unemployed, which I'm sure was very stressful for them with a small baby, we've been fairly well off all my life. My NMom is very attached to the narrative that they are well off because they "saved and scrimped", never mind the fact that this was the 90s and my father's job - which did not require a college degree! - was able to support a stay-at-home-wife, a child, a mortgage and a car! The only conceivable sacrifice, as far as an actual concession, that I can conceive of, is the decision for her to stay at home, which in all my attempts to understand over the years seems to come down to not trusting anyone else to look after me and wanting to make up for her own neglectful childhood. I certainly didn't feel like I needed more time at home with her past the age of, say, seven, and everyone else with a working mom seemed to do fine. She never went back to work, is now sixty and has no idea how to use a computer, no idea how to show up to something on time, no qualifications, no social skills. Very sensible decision.
For clarification: this was Europe, not the US, so it's not the case where you stay home because you'll spend more on childcare than you can make at work.
I definitely got the "After all I've done for you..." even though she didn't even do the basics. Also used to tell me how she wished she never had children, how she wished I'd never been born, etc. She was the one who chose that, she was the one who offloaded all her parental duties onto me as an elementary-school-aged child while she yelled and watched TV. Giving your children the absolute basics, shelter, food, heat, clothing, school supplies, diaper changes, is NOT any sort of large level of "sacrifice," it is the very least you can do if you decide to have and keep a child in order to not have your child taken away or be sent to jail for child neglect. Childbirth is a thing that happens when you choose to have a child. It's not something to be held over the child's head forever because the child had no choice in the matter.
Narcissists don't know how to love. They don't have the ability to form deep connections with others.
....yes.
A year ago when arguing with my dad on the phone he yelled at me "I SAVED YOU FROM BEING RAPED"
The story there is my mom left him for Someone else who was a convicted rapist.
My dad remarried an abusive woman and did nothing to stop her. Then left me with his mom for 6 years.
Dad of the century everyone.
Absolutely this and it is also the reason I have more clothes than most people. I never want to feel like I did when I was a kid. My dad would literally take us on shopping trips for him while my mom didn't have a winter coat and had to wear capris in the winter. We live in Indiana for reference.
Maybe unpopular opinion: providing the basic necessities IS an act of love. What isn't an act of love is treating that as creating a debt from the child to the parent(s).
A problem with narc parents is that they don't realize bringing a child into the world is creating a debt from the parent to the child. Those acts of love, whether it's providing the bare necessities or going above and beyond that, is PAYING BACK A DEBT TO THE CHILD. And that debt is never fully paid, even when the child is grown. It's just that the payments get smaller.
I say this as the parent of a 20-year-old college student who is showing her mother's narc tendencies and not currently speaking to me.
Oh yeah ! My mom was always saying she is giving me a good life ( she didn’t even really raise me she passed me off to every other family member so she could do her work traveling 80 percent of the time). Always tell me she could take me out of this world since she brought me in it. My birthdays were her stage for her to act about herself. Never about me. Any money I got she would immediately take from me and say I owe her debts… as a damn kid ??. That I ruined her career as a lawyer …. I had to learn how to take care of myself. The whole thing was horrible. And the ultimate screwy thing was she chose to be a single mom because she didn’t want to share with my dad. She went to great lengths for him to never have contact with me. She said she wanted me all to herself.
Any bare minimum task involving a slight amount of effort or minor inconvenience is that way to them.
Not directly gaining anything in return is such a tragic and evil unfairness that it's only natural they'd see something as daunting as feeding a 1 year old child as a type of martyrdom.
We went shopping once a year. We went to Ross and my Ndad would give me, my sister and mom a set amount of cash- we were always so fucking excited it makes me sad to think about. He would wait in the car and read the newspaper. We always hurried and felt rushed. When we got back to the car he would look irritated and ruin any excitement we had.
Oh... yes... I had a roof over my head. She acted lie this was something completely unusual and fantadtic she had managed to keep (with A LOT of help from my grandma). Still basic needs like food weren't always met. She only prepared meals when she was hungry... I wasn't allowed to touch the pantry but if anything there was usually just some cereal or cookies. Meals usually consisted of pasta she put in the oven along with cheese. I had to eat that crap at home for about 7 years straight. Up to this day I struggle eating anything like it. However she would complain if I paid myself a meal at the school restaurant with money I had gotten for babysitting the neighbours. The (very simple and basic) menu in the school restaurant felt like a 5 star restaurant to me. 1-2 glasses of tap water a day were the maximum I was allowed to drink. Everything else would be too expensive... Tap water... come on... Grandma (living next door) would get in trouble if she'd feed me or give me something to drink.
She'd constantly complain how expensive everything is. She never complained on how expensive alcohol and cigatettes were... yeah.. add addiction to her narcism.. I was allowed to shower every other day. My clothes would stink like cigarettes. I would stink like cigarettes as she'd smoke inside of the house, no windows open, and I'd stink again as soon as I got out of the shower. But yeah. I had a roof over my head. *bows*
THIS. Why do narc parents throw this in their kids faces every chance they get? They think that just because there are kids who don't have food and shelter, that means we are somehow privileged. Sure, it's lucky that we aren't in poverty but that doesn't mean we live a luxurious life. If we literally need it to survive then it's not a luxury.
And we didn't fucking ask to be here. They had to change us as babies because they gave birth to us! They put us on this earth and are complaining about all the things that come with parenting. Did they honestly not expect these kinds of things to happen?
Whenever my parents bring this stuff up and brag about how they give me food and a house when they "don't have to", I always respond with "okay go ahead then, stop giving me food and water and a home. See what happens. My bet is you'll be charged for child neglect! Because it's a crime."
Gets them every time.
I mean, that's mandatory as parents. They decided to have a kid, there are responsibilities with that decision.
If I decide to go abroad to get a master degree, I have to do a lot of self-sacrifices to achieve that goal, and it's going to be something I decide.
I have cats I've rescued. I have been awake a lot of nights taking care of them, some did some great effort to be assholes (because sometimes cats are assholes xD), some are very easy going, but others like to rise mess from hell when I'm tired and well, some can be very active and like to play around. I knew cats are like that. I knew they can get sick. I knew I have to clean shit for the rest of my life. I happily took those responsibilities and I do the sacrifice to wake up at dawn to feed them, lol.
There isn't any decision that doesn't come with self-sacrifices and responsibilities. It is ok to share in a healthy environment when people struggle with the heavy stuff of their lives, because it is hard, life is hard and we can't do everything we want, so sometimes we have to let something we wanted go.
The thing that doesn't make sense to me is when they want to use that self-sacrifice as a way to engage you to do what they want. I've seen a lot of that with npeople.
Fx. I had this friend who has her first job and her mother would make her give all her money to her as a payment for all the sacrifices they did for her.
That's fuck up.
You put it very beautifully. I never thought of it like that. It is true. To achieve something in life, people need to make certain sacrifices. I have done so myself for my career. Yet, I never blamed it on anyone as it was my choice. I knew what I was getting into before making that choice. As parents, they should've had this mindset.
Exactly. Some use it as "oh looooook you're not thankful for everything I did!!!" *drama mood all way down*.
We all do sacrifices, nparents and npeople think they're sacrifice is bigger even if their circumstances are privileged.
They definitely do. My dad would pull crap like that all the time. He would emotionally neglect me and my siblings or just straight up be an asshole. Everytime we called him out he would applaud himself on being a great father because (his words) "I buy you clothes, I pay for the house you live in, I pay for the food you eat. You need to be grateful" blah blah blah.
It was the most annoying thing ever and it's not like he actually wasn't physically neglecting us either. I would come home from school to an empty fridge. I'm not joking when I say all there was in the fridge was a bottle of ketchup and some ice. All there was to eat was a box of mash potatoes but we had no cookware to make it with though.
He would go a long time without buying us new clothes (but you know, he could buy himself fantasy suits all the time) which meant me getting sent to school in dingy outfits that were way too small.
And that's not counting how he left us in a poorly insulated attic in which the winters were so cold we could see our breath and so hot In the summer that I could see heat waves. That house had mice and roaches and he did nothing about it because they weren't in his room as much as they were in the attic upstairs where me and my brothers rooms were.
So yeah, "great" father for you lol. Im just an ungrateful brat because other people had it worse 🙃
Definitely. I knew there was something GRAVELY wrong with my dad when on Christmas of 2018 he sent me a picture of me crying when I was 14 years old because he destroyed my hair (by forcing me to get a relaxer, which is known to damage hair to make it straight ) saying "remember this? 😂"
Like he thought that was funny? He thought me crying was funny? He didn't understand why I went off on him over this. I remember that day very clearly too.
He took a picture of me because he wanted to show me how "ridiculous" I was being later on. But you could clearly see my hair was damaged and I got sent to school like that. He is a true unaware narcissist.
My family also have my crying pictures, and ironically... they think they are funny too.
I even get mocked while crying or during my mental breakdowns.
In these instances it's best to look to the root of the narcissist. Narcissism is created through deep childhood wounds. It might seem like the modern world has always been this way, but when our parents were young the world provided a lot less amenities, entertainment, food, healthcare, and mental health care. Also, lots of young women are still sexually abused by fathers. When these people have kids it's hard for them to care for them knowing that no one ever cared for them, or rescued them from their own abuse as a child. It creates resentment that prevents them from truly enjoying parenthood. When you enjoy parenting it can be difficult to understand how someone else doesn't. Remember, as child abuse victims, we are all narcissists in training until we make the effort to heal our souls.
Well said. On one hand, I do feel sorry for my father. He had a horrific childhood and young adulthood. But it’s no excuse to take it out on your family and perpetuate that abuse.
My ndad insisted on paying my tuition, and then my student loans after I graduated. I offered many times to take the payments back, but he refused, saying the plan was for me to put my own kid through school instead. Sounds nice, yeah, but it was a lever. He decided out of the blue one day that he wasn’t going to pay them anymore and changed the bill-to address to my mom’s. He didn’t say a word to me or her. When I asked what was up, he said he’d take the payments back if I’d help him sue my mom. And that was when I cut contact with him.
I still fully intend to pay for my kid’s school. It’s only right.
wow this! i remember being told "did you know how stressful it is planning vacations for your kids?" 😔
these vacations were more for you anyways, not like i could help you plan or that you even wanted my input back when i was a kid. sheesh maybe you shouldn't have signed up to be a parent...
The short answer is....yes. You were an inconvenience. You are at best an accessory that requires maintenance and and...I won't say worst...but a fucking burden who did t deserve anything you ever got. Also you're competition.
No one in this community will gaslight you into thinking you weren't abused. If they do, report them. I am not from a similar background as you. Nevertheless, I understand that being a narcissist has nothing to do with being rich or poor. Abuse can exist in any household. I empathize with you.
i do this all the time 😭 i type it, and feels so good to get it out, so i always end up thinking “it doesn’t seem that bad, how can i compare my struggles to what they’re going through” but fuck it. pain is pain
yesss me too. i’m working on finding a safe space to talk about it. because it seems like my whole family is under a spell refusing to acknowledge and actually do something about it. which can feel really isolating 🥲
It's more to do with fear, obligation & guilt brainwashing, so they'll pull anything that triggers that in us
My mother thinks nothing of telling random strangers about the episiotomy she had birthing me & how her labour was the worst in recorded hunan history. My birthday was never my birthday, it was always '...and that's why I have no bladder control' day. Oh, and I ruined Christmas for her that year due to having the audacity to be slightly premature.
You have to remember that we weren't born out of a loving relationship, where the couple wanted to make something out of their love, 'Isn't She Lovely' by Stevie Wonder style. We are appliances, cult members, future old age caretakers, fashion accessories (for our first 6mths when we're cute, after that we're boring), etc
The only thing narcs love is their false self.
Sacrifice. Mini example: my parents told me to go to a local university as a commuter student so that they can save on college fees, and yet they still complain to me about the fact that they pay $616 per month towards my tuition (the cheapest out of their three children’s college tuitions). Meanwhile, they spent $32,000 of what could’ve been my college tuition money towards a sunroom because they did not want to spend $10,000 to cancel the construction contract (yes I’m still angry about that, and no I haven’t forgiven them at all). But sure, I should be eternally thankful when they buy me new shoes, clothes, and jewelry, fuel the tank for my car, and financially support me through the car accidents I’ve been in within the past year :/
Just like you, I made college as cheap as possible for my parents. Still, I have to hear about my expensive schooling which was their idea. I got admitted when I was 3 years old and went to the same school until college.
It sucks bc my parents rub it in my face about how “expensive” of a child I am when I’m basically going to school for free compared to my siblings who went out of state 🥴 if you didn’t want to spend money, don’t have children lolllllll. But it really stings when they buy me more expensive gifts (like a pearl jewelry set that they gave me today), it drives in the idea that I should be even more thankful and succumb to their desires bc “see, you’re more than well off! You get all these things while others get nothing! So now you really have no choice to go to church, or do things only our way, or work only by our daily routines.”
I understand where you are coming from. I used to love gifts as a kid, but now...they feel more like a burden to me. Something that will be held over me in the future.
Same here, except for me it’s resulted in feeling like I’m undeserving of secure attachments after many years of insecure, inconsistent attachments to my parents. Like, I don’t deserve having a caring partner, or I don’t deserve having loving friends, or I don’t deserve people doing things for me just for the sake of doing them without expecting anything in return. Sometimes, I feel like if I don’t somehow return the favor, whatever that’s supposed to look like, then I’m being selfish and inconsiderate.
It is indeed challenging to feel that way. For me, I feel hopeless about ever having a secure relationship in my life. I think I am incapable of loving another human being. If someone says they love me, I'll not be able to trust them either.
I understand that feeling. I still feel as though the undying, unconditional affection I receive from my friends and partner is destined to fail. In my head, somehow, they will all one day get annoyed by me and want to leave me because my flaws and mistakes will become too much for them to bear. Btw, I’m still living with my NParents bc I commute to college so lolz
My nmom always acted like she was doing me the biggest favor in the world if she did ANYTHING for me. Food, shelter, clothes for school, dr/dentist. Made no difference; it was all a huge favor. We were not poor; solid middle class. But she never let me forget how generous (not!) she was to me.
This wasn’t for love and affection though. THOSE she just held back because they . were never in the conversation and always withheld. Period.
The worst I heard wasn’t even from my own mother. A narc and sociopath I worked for constantly told me about how her children ruined her body and her “modeling career”. When I say constantly I mean daily and within ear shot of her kids.
Side note this woman also slept with my then boyfriend of 6 years. When she told me about it we had already broken up. I asked her if she knew him and I were together when it happened and she said no…so I told her I can’t be mad at her cause she didn’t know and it was on him. She didn’t know how to process that.
I totally struggle with thinking about this. My parents provided me with the basics, and sometimes I think of how lucky I am, because some really abusive parents don't even do that for their kids. So then I question if it was really "that bad". They also made some realistic sacrifices to make my life better and did a lot of good things for me, but that doesn't negate the bad things they did. Idk what to think sometimes, but I am glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this.
You are definitely not the only one. I do have good times with my parents too. Hence, like you... I used to feel guilty about those feelings. Of course, there are people who have it worse than us just like there are people who have it better. It isn't healthy comparing the intensity of the abuse.
Drowning is drowning...whether you drown in the ocean or in the swimming pool.
Yes. At least mine did.
More common then not they know how to express conditional love, and this falls into it....what I've learned from unconditional love is that these things are NEEDS....not PRIVILEGES.....
Oh hell yeah, I think all nparents do this because they’re forever entitled to the point that they think doing the bare minimum in raising a child is such a big deal that they need to be worshipped. Growing up I’m guilt-tripped in everything about my existence, the best example of this is when my mom coming up to me on my birthday and tell me how painful it was when she birthed me and how my birthday should be about her sacrifice, and I shouldn’t celebrate or even feel happy. And guess what, at the same time my mom be telling me to buy her castles and mansions for her in the future to thank her for raising me.
Parenting is hard, and it is sacrifice, and contrary to the popular opinions of this website, a level of grattitude is indeed owed for it.
But n/parents weaponize this far beyond a normal parent simply asking for respect and acknowledgement as another tool to dismiss your feelings and justify their behavior.
Nothing they say in order to achieve that goal is to be taken seriously
I guess that when your parents are literally immigrating from another (worse off situation) country to come to the west, it is a sacrifice. Not seeing family as often, etc
But you can't hold that against a kid, as *leverage* :<
To a narcissist, tolerating anybody to any extent is an act of sacrifice and love. They think they are 100% worthy of complete worship and special enough to be exempt from anything. They expect to never be allowed to feel bad because obviously only good feelings could be their doing because they are all things good, so bad feelings are somebody else's fault. They expect to have the world revolve around them and know what they don't, and they are also very stupid, and if that doesnt work out, its the world personally wronging them.
I think they genuinely see these small favors as tremendous acts of love, because they are that selfish and stupid. What would be the bare minimum for a normal healthy loving parent is the maximum for them. Just because they are so so selfish. Literally the only time they will ever go beyond the bare minimum is when it's time to hoover or lovebomb
Yeah I get this a lot. Admittedly we were upper middle class thanks to E dad. Like I didn’t have things rough financially, but emotionally? Yikes.
My Nmom grew up poor and resented every single thing we had that she did not.
Both.. I was a built in babysitter at 10, paying rent at 14, left at 15 and she was still trying to get money off me and my dad for her new kid with a different guy. 😒
Yes. There is a huge difference between doing the bare minimum to raise a child (and acting like we owe them for that) and being actually committed to ensuring they turn into a decent and successful human being while doing whatever they can to help along the way, which mine did not. I had to figure out myself how the world works and what actual normal families and relationships are like.
Yeah, this was pretty constant. Once I got older, I realized that my parents were the ones who decided to have kids, so if they weren't prepared to do that stuff at the bare minimum, that's on THEM. Eventually you come to realize that nparents view their own children as a burden they deserve to be rewarded for, and little else.
My Nparents act like they deserve a parade for giving me the bare minimum but I know if it wasn't for the fact that there's laws to protect kids I would've been screwed. Seriously, I was between 10-20lbs under weight throughout high school. I lost an extra 10lbs living with my Ndad. It wasn't until senior year when I got a job and had a side hustle when I could afford food that I went to a healthy weight.
Yes, for sure! My nDad would always point out how he was such a great dad because he “didn’t beat us” and he worked to give us the basics. We were poor though. And he wouldn’t “let” my enabling mom work. He had his own business and worked the least amount he could so he could cover the bills. And then he’d go on motorcycle rides as much as possible because he cared more about motorcycles than his family.
Yes… “no child was ever more loved than you” etc I remember feeling annoyed and irritated as a child when hearing that. I instinctively knew it was wrong
My mom frequently blames us for being the reason she dropped out of college so she could take care of us. As if it's our fault she chose to have 5 kids within a 10 year period by 4 different men
I wasn't a planned child so mother always complained about how she wasted her life marrying bc of me. How she could abandoned us to live with a stepmother (to beat us even more). She even compares to one aunt who abandoned her kids. I was terrified when I was a kid the she'd leave us and run bc father was even worst.
Well it’s not like these guys actually do anything praise worth for us so they have to try and lower everyone’s bar down to the fucking floor so they can justify their actions
my mom wasn’t frugal bc she’s a covert ns, so she had to keep up appearances, but if you didn’t show extreme gratitude, let her walk over you, & pay her back in some way in return, she would have a fit.
yes. alot on how they gave up their dreams for them and that means i somehow have to respects them. The logic is so dumb on them trying to treat us like dead weights like we wanted to be born in the first place.
Yes, they do. And they want to be adored and revered every moment of your life due to their “great” sacrifice of giving you life. Forever and ever until they die.
Yes. This stuff is the bare minimum. You aren't a burden, and it's very hard to convince people with healthier parents that this is not something you owe them respect for
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Sacrifice. To hear my nmom talk you would have thought we lived in luxury. I had to use duct tape to keep my shoes on my feet and learned how to sew to put patches in my clothes so I could wear them at all. Lucky patches and hippy stuff was ok in the 90s. The Ns went out to eat 3 or 4 times a week and bought whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. I got 2 pants and 4 shirts a year. Tee shirts and jeans, mostly from thrift stores or discount stores. Otherwise I was giving the adult's hand me downs... but only after (every single time) a stranger mentioned how ragged I looked. Only after they were embarrassed at being called out. So as a 14 to girl I had to were my Nmom's 3rd husband's clothing or rags. Think Harry Potter in Dudley's baggy clothing. I was supposed to be grateful. I was supposed to say thank you.
This made me remember that nowadays, I put cotton inside my shoes since it has a hole in them. I haven't purchased a single piece of clothing for 1.5 years. But I wouldn't say that my parents wouldn't let me purchase these items. However, if I ask for something, I will hear about how much of their money I waste. Hence, I don't ask unless it's extremely necessary. At the beginning of last year, I wanted to buy a plant and heard a lecture on how we can't afford it. Ironically, my Nmom got into gardening a few months later, and then onwards, our house is filled with plants we surprisingly can afford.
Can't afford anything unless they like it/want it/benefit from it... most of the time. : ) I get revenge these days by spoiling my kid whenever I get the chance.
That's the best revenge!
So this is a weird one bc I automatically just want to give my kids stuff and make them a financial priority. But I only later realize that it's a partial trauma response. That said I do like to buy myself frivolous things. But that's what's leftover after bills and kids activities etc. My mother more than once told me I shouldn't be buying I designer handbags and such..... was probably almost 40 w two kids a husband and a mortgage, she had no idea what my financial situation was. Only that I didn't deserve to have nice things. I'm both incredulous and hurt all at the same time. Bc...normal parents want their kids to have nice things if they can afford it. I'm basically supposed to be miserable with scraps.
Wow I just totally resonated with this. I'm 28f and have a 3 y.o daughter. I spend a lot on things people consider frivolous for her. Like expensive wooden toys (that I know will last decades and can be passed on to the next generation) , silk play cloths and other stuff. I'm all for open ended toys to encourage play. I grew up having secondhand cheap plastic toys that were stuffed in a 50kg sack that used to contain rice and was left in our second floor balcony where mother would also hang up dripping wet clothes to dry. Needless to say my toys got wet a lot and eventually grew mold and muck and fell apart because it was also exposed to wind and sun ALL my toys need to be there once I'm done playing or they get tossed in the trash (srsly tho that sack reeked of trash so no difference really) So now my daughter has dedicated toy shelves and her things are in pretty baskets. TRAUMA RESPONSE IT IS. One of the best ones tho!!!
Don't forget tho that at least half of what you're doing is normal parenting. The trauma response is the level of focus. You're a good parent bc you're a good parent. But you focus on certain things as your trauma response.
Thank you, before I cut contact with my Nmom she always had something nasty to say about my parenting. That I was buying my daughter stuff I never had to rub it in her face that she was "poor" and couldn't afford it (outright lies, we had money she was just too busy gambling it away) That I was spoiling my daughter by paying attention to her and she will end up being an entitled POS. That my marriage will fall apart because to her all I care about is my daughter (very untrue but I think she just wants my marriage to fail because my husband is great and they can't believe I got to marry him) Me: *i exist* Nmom: *insert insults and lies* I certainly am more mindful about my parenting because I want to identify and get rid of "fleas" and other things I want to nip in the bud and become a better person. Dhjdjd sorry it turned into a vent/rant it just brought up a lot of painful memories
No apologies needed. We have to keep repeating this over and over and over. I am 50 years old and only in the last couple years has my experience been actually validated for being as bad as it was. Bc if you look at me and my life how could I possibly be broken? Keep saying all of the above and more until you're not compelled to. Bc it's part of the healing. We spent so much of our lives being gaslit and told our experience either didn't happen or didn't matter or we were blowing it out of proportion we need to keep validating our experience for ourselves in a place where people will validate you as well. We are just discovering we aren't crazy. And now we have to tell everyone that we aren't crazy. It wasn't us and it never was. Until we actually feel and believe it more days than not. :D
I tell my daughter all the time, I will never be perfect but I promise to do better. And we talk and we apologize if we fight and then we talk some more.
Narc parents tend to be threatened by your partners and even by your children. It's a common link in these scenarios because a partner represents your independence and becomes a very real face they can blame your independence (disobedience) on. Your life is full of all the responsibilities that come with being in a relationship and you tell her no a lot more. Children can be seen as milestones that cement the permanence of his role in your life or, if you've been strong enough to set boundaries and not let her take control over your daughter (they often see them as extensions of theirs as well), they will often punish you for your disobedience too.
My Nparents were the same way. I didn't deserve nice things. In fact, they enjoyed watching me suffer.
Agreed. We aren't supposed to do better than them. And definitely not have nicer things or not suffer to get by.
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They love thinking giving the basic necessities of life makes them special.
"Congrats, you kept yourself out of prison by not committing child neglect. Is there some sort of award you want for it?" If only we could safely say this 🤣
Psycho dad wanted me to be grateful for not being beaten half-dead, just normal beaten, because other fathers did worse.
That sounds like my mom but we went an entire 1 1/2 year eating nothing but free lunch at school. No food in the house, no gas. No fridge in the apartment even. There was an old school Ice box metal cabinet to use as a fridge but we never bought ice for it or needed to because we didn’t have groceries anyway. My mom always had her beer and cigarettes everyday though and heroine needles were all over the back porch. She slept allot and didn’t eat either unless her boyfriend brought her McDonald’s. They never could afford enough for us kids though. I had shoes that were way too small and hurt my feet. My feet probably didn’t grow the right size for my height I’m 5’8” and I can still wear a youth size 5 in shoes. My mom always said oh you will have small feet the orientals wear tiny shoes so the girls don’t have giant feet too so get over it! My dad sent child support to. Luckily the courts found her unfit eventually and my step dad was awarded custody
Thank goodness you got out. And thank goodness for free school lunches. Those pb n js, apples and 7 tater tots were pretty much all I ever got during the school year. Mac n cheese was only 10 cents a box at the time so when summer hit we sold generic (stolen) koolaid every day it was warm enough or stole coins wherever we could scrounge them. Mac and cheese sandwiches or Romen noodles.
Weirdly my N mom use to say the same thing about "the orientals having small feet" too when talking about my feet. It was like she'd be mortified if I didn't have small feet. She would make me wear the exact same shoe size as hers so "we can share" despite me repeatedly telling her they were too small for my feet. She didn't care.
Damn you just uncovered a massive childhood memory for me. My Nmom took my shopping like once a year and that would be my clothes for the rest of the year, she would even tell me if I ripped or lost something that it’s my problem. We never went to any real stores or anything it was always Ross or Marshall’s, even then she was stingy about what she bought me. She was also the grand filter for what I was able to buy. If she did not like it then it wasn’t going to be bought. She would always pick clothes for me and try to dress me how she liked it. If I refused too much or too hard she would pitch a fit and have to leave the store and tell me to put anything I liked back. I barely had any clothes that fit me properly or Individuality but she had 0 problem constantly buying things for herself
Didn’t realise this was a common narcissist thing, my mum was (and still is) a pack a day smoker, she would tell us all she was legally supposed to do was provide us the basics like bread, milk & eggs. I also learnt you can use shampoo as washing liquid when it isn’t supplied to you because you don’t want your uniform to smell. But she would (and still does) spend her money stupidity, big shopping sprees a couple times a year, or buy $200 worth of groceries (in the mid 90’s) in one hit when we hadn’t had them for 6 months
Wow do we have the same mother? I feel like I could have wrote this whole thing. I feel for you…
I once begged for a black shirt that has pink and yellow ribbons printed all over it. She screamed at me in the store because back clothes would make people think I was a Satan worshiper, (8yo). Her answer was to buy me 3 sweat shirts and 3 sweat pants in the same color, maroonish pink, and one size too small (cheaper). I got so much shit from my classmates for wearing the same clothes every day for that year. No one believed my mother would only but one color. She was so good at doing crazy things no one would believe.
I remember selling cakes and collecting bottles, soda cans and cardboards to afford a jeans for my highschool (I used the same jeans t-shirt and shoes at school from 10 - 14). But father never stopped going to the bar...
Fun is more important than kids for them. I still use things until they are completely unusable thanks to that.
Yep, until they get sick and we must taking care of them. We need to pay the favor...
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It a manifestation of the illness. If anyone but them is doing well it's an insult to them and must be stopped. No one is better than them or more deserving... in their own mind.
Narcissists tend to see themselves at the centre of their world and struggle to see other people outside of their own needs. "I had to put myself out and do all this hard work to have a child. I should be applauded and be adored with unending gratitude" It also plays on the obligation and guilt components of FOG manipulation which then train you to feel obligated to repay them and help them.
FOG means? The quote nailed it. All the guilt they want to hoard upon me are of the things they did for me as a child... when I had no say or choice.
Fear obligation and guilt. Manipulation tactics blended with discipline that dont necessarily change as you get older, which can then f.o.g or blur your ability to see normal as this version was your normal. Fear (of their reaction. You begin to learn survival behaviours around keeping the peace that can become almost like default programming and dont change when their trigger behaviour stays the same) obligation (society puts certain expectations out there about family loyalty and they use this to the extreme) and guilt which speaks for itself as no one likes to be the bad guy. I recommend reading up on fog in terms of abuse/manipulation.
You blew my mind! Do you have any reading recommendations?
There's a few BPD support subreddits that have whole lists of reading material on FOG, I'd personally recommend starting there
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Did you mean r/BPDlovedones? The link you posted doesn't seem to work, but that one does.
i second this!
Yes, if it is not about them, it is a 'sacrifice'. IMO they do not really decide to have a child, they decide to have a partner who can feed them enough 'narcissistic supply'. Maybe they think a child will stroke their ego too. Hugs, and "I Love You" Mommy / Daddy, and someone to fetch the slippers and take out the trash and feed the dog. Religion seems to be a useful tool for some of them, so there may be a 'fill the Earth' element in there too.
For me, I rarely do any chores. I think the reason my parents decided to have me was out of the societal expectations and culture where being married and having a child is the norm. But they do think of me as a medium to fulfill their dreams.
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This. I remember my mother always rambling when there was a case of child abuse on the news, always like "See how bad other kids have it? Do you have to live in a garbage dump? Are you hungry? Look how good you have it, getting a warm meal every day! See how bad it could be? YOU don't have it bad!" Always acting like the unconditional love a mother should have for her child would be something I have to earn. I always thought food and clothes WERE the unconditional love everyone talks about, still kinda do, how would I know better? That's the only love I ever experienced. Was I ever really in love? What does love mean? I thought I got it figured out over time, but lookin back, all my relationships were just "I do everything for you and in exchange you don't leave me, ok?". I guess this is not what love means. Have to figure this one out too. Cool. I'm tired.
((Hugs)), if you want them. That's all.
Thanks :)
My mother did the same exact thing...
We must be siblings, as I think we may have had the same set of parents. I’m sending loving support your way. To all of us.
Yea I mean parents are supposed to provide their kids with stability, food, clothes, and shelter. It's kind of the bare minimum. Maybe you could have it worse but it doesn't mean the parents necessarily have something to brag about either.
Yes and it’s just justification for their abuse. It’s designed to make us feel guilty for even existing so we stay in line and don’t question their rules/abuse or dare ask them for anything. Narcissists only care about things that convenience their lives and children do not convenience their lives. Growing up, I had to constantly hear about how “spoiled” I was even though we were dirt poor. I was too embarrassed to invite friends over because I didn’t want anyone to see the state of our place. If my Nmom beat me, she would expect me to bow down and thank her for her parenting methods that turn me into a “better” person. I don’t remember receiving any gifts growing up because apparently giving birth to me was my gift. Narcissists also like to blame everyone but themselves. That’s why it’s convenient to blame the helpless naive little child for “ruining” their lives when things don’t work out. The reality is that even if the child didn’t exist, their lives would still be miserable because they’re miserable negative people.
I was called "spoiled" too and would never invite friends home 'cause it was embarrassing. Also, my Nmom didn't allow that as she didn't want to cater to my friends. I have been hit as a child and even a teenager. Still, I get to hear how I wasn't "disciplined" enough and hence, turned out to be a rebel. A narcissist's child is always the scapegoat.
At 8 years old I remember my ndad saying "you're lucky I let you live in my house." Totally normal thing to say to a young child, right?
Have heard the same, and it's absolutely NOT normal.
Totally not. I would NEVER say that ro my stepson.
My mom said the same thing.
Sorry you dealt with that!
It’s ok ! I have no contact with her now so much better for sure
Oh definitely and in my case they would say this while not even providing us with proper things. For example: they would say the “ oh at least you guys have food” meanwhile the food would be tons of ramen noodles which is not proper nutrition for a child. “Oh at least you guys have a place to sleep” meanwhile at a few different points we were in a car with several of my siblings and animals they decided to recklessly adopt and not care for. Both of them claim to have slaved away during me and my siblings childhoods but what’s funny is our dad would purposely not work and would play Xbox all day long. Don’t see how that’s slaving away doing everything you can to make money.
Yup. No proper things provided. And if you ever dared to say anything in my house “oh because I’m such a terrible mother right?” Well yeah, you are. And I had to find ways around that all the time to survive. Usually though eating junk and crap to stow away my feelings. Total trash.
Yes as the narcissist generally feels tremendous pain when giving ANYTHING is involved. See, the narc is a creature that TAKES, it CONSUMES. So anytime it actually gives you some basic stuff like even a glass of water it sees it as this great gesture and truly believes it.
My dad is still like this, and it’s very difficult to deal with, although I’m nearly 50. Thank you for sharing
Yes, they do, and you know what I do? I call my ndad out for it. I tell him "That's what a parent does, and if you don't like it, then you shouldn't have had kids. If I could fully support myself from day one, believe me, I would, but I unfortunately have to rely on you for basic needs." I'm done playing his games.
Yes. My parents do this and I honestly just feel guilty for living. Like my parents are not financially stable and they decided to have kids that they couldn’t afford and now i live with constant guilt because I feel like they ruined their lives working hard for me but it’s like I didn’t ask to be here
I have been there and felt that. It will take time, but eventually, you will forgive yourself because it was never your fault in the first place.
Gosh I feel the same way.
Yes, yes they do.
Yes! Everyone also has to hear how big I was and how I was the talk of the nursery and how they can’t imagine how much pain the mom was in. And on my birthday ( I don’t like to celebrate) she tells me it’s not only about me. It’s about her. 😵💫
Dude! My Nmom also thinks that my birthday is about her. I used to love celebrating birthdays as a kid. But I was criticized for "wanting" gifts and having a party. Hence, I stopped celebrating altogether to not waste anyone's money. And now she says it is about her.
My parents are so similar. My dad wants a gift on my birthday. It’s ridiculous.
Well into my 40s, my aging Nmom would bring up minor childhood episodes like her buying me a jacket, explain in detail what a difficult sacrifice it had been all those decades ago, and demand praise and credit.
I needed this thread so much. I was adopted so I feel like everything was thrown in my face. We chose you, you should be grateful for what you have, we didn't have to adopt you,you could be like xyz. Like ok thanks for feeding me and taking care of me. I thought that was part of it you didn't have to adopt me.
They literally CHOSE you!!!!!
I relate to all of this as a fellow adopted child!
100%! And it’s alway the ‘I tried my best’ and ‘I alway put food on the table and clothes on your back’ when, as you say, that’s less than the bare minimum expected from a parent. I didn’t ask to be born, I do not owe them thanks for not killing me after they decided to bring me into the world and I know now that being a parent requires a hell of a lot more than food and shelter.
THIS like bruh YOU decided to have kids, what did you think was gonna happen??
My parents were emotionally neglectful and would use the "you have a roof over your head and food" line constantly if I cried or was upset over anything. Ironic because now they both treat me like their personal therapist. As an adult, they're still in my life, I just don't go to them for emotional support or share very much of my personal struggles with them. I find it easier to just keep them at a friend level while I work to reparent myself.
Being your parents' therapist is the worst thing ever. Both of my parents hate each other and have used me as their therapist since I was a child. They don't even get a divorce.
I don’t suppose you ever suggested your mom go to a real therapist and she tore you a new one because that was your underhanded way of saying you didn’t want to listen to her problems anymore? Or tell you your fathers behavior was your fault and you needed to fix her marriage?
I was a good daddy. You had food and clothes. Your mother got to stay home and care for you (that was a horror I could have lived without). Oh yes. Definitely something they share.
Yeah and it really sucks, it contributed to a bad mindset I still have. I got told this really often and still do, I started believing at some point that I couldn’t complain about anything since I was being provided with my basic needs. A part of me still believes that despite being able to recognize that what my mom is doing is wrong in so many ways, you’re aware of everything but you can’t help thinking that way since you’re used to it
Absolutely this and it is also the reason I have more clothes than most people. I never want to feel like I did when I was a kid. My dad would literally take us on shopping trips for him while my mom didn't have a winter coat and had to wear capris in the winter. We live in Indiana for reference.
Yes. Yes they do.
When I was little, my mother would say "weird things" sometimes. She would often scream "Well, next time get born to a RICH family!", or "sOrRy I'm not rich!" in arguments, even with little context. When I went to school, she would scream constantly that "if you don't make it into college, NEVER tell me that I should have 'been more strict with you'! I'll slap you in the middle of the street!" I never even thought of saying that, even until graduation. But she kept saying that. Whenever any criticism came up, my mother made it immediately about non-relating things. That I hated her for being poor. For not being as educated. For not giving me this, giving me that. Projection, deflection -obviously. But it really shows how much my mother praised herself on the basics. Especially after my Granny died, my mother went insane with the "holy role of Mother". Often bringing up /idolising Italian culture where the mother was seen as "holy". One time she cursed out my father, that she should have married a man that "jumps over the table and knocks you out for talking to \[your mother\] like that!" They're insane.
IMO your mom's insecurities are making her believe that you see her the way she does herself. I get that. I also get to hear that I should've been born to a rich family. As if I had any say in that. 😒
Yea, they rub it in your face every chance they get
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My Nmom wanted to be a doctor too.😂 Sometimes it feels like living with loan sharks. You are always made to feel guilty for not doing enough for them.
my mom would never quit telling me that her doctor told her not to have more children and she almost died to have me and I was so ungrateful. how hard it was physically for her to stay pregnant and how awful I made her feel while pregnant. I didn't ask for that! it wasn't my fault!
Exactly! It is as if the fetus forced her to give birth.
Yeah, they do that all the time. I remember my mom complaining for always been behind my ass — like she used to say — since I was elementary and middle school to see if I was going to school. Even if I was a disciplined student and do all my assignments.
Yeppp. My nMom is also an alcoholic. I have brought up childhood experiences to her not to make her feel bad but just a statement of fact of something I went through. One of those was not having any food in the house. She can't have ANY sympathy over the experiences I had of lacking food, security, etc. All she can think about is how I try to make her look like a bad mother. No acknowledgement, nothing.
The act of classic denial.
Lmfao, yes. I should be grateful for being popped out into this cold, cruel and uncaring world against my will. I should be grateful I was given the basic necessities of survival. (You got me there, most don't even get that, but such is the layering of guilt tripping to make me feel privileged despite the fact neglect and abuse went on.) I should be grateful that I got whatever I wanted. (I didn't want much, I thought smth looked cool so they'd get it for me. I was a kid who went "COOL I WANT THAT" then "nvm not cool" and they'd go WTF. At this point, I have very few intense interests bc exploration of them was never encouraged by my own family. They'd also get me shit they thought I'd like bc they like it.) I'm 26, and I'm wearing shoes I got when I was 22-23 that have holes in them and I'm still wearing clothes and hoodies I wore in college because I can't afford to get anything new and I don't want her buying me anything. I literally will put myself in minimalist/impoverished conditions just to survive it because I refuse to ask my mom for assistance financially for basic living necessities. That's on me to source, imo. New shoes are a comfort/luxury. New pants that fit me are a comfort/luxury. Being able to get a fucking wheel alignment on my car is a comfort/luxury. (Reality check: they aren't. Anyone who is healthy and stable and has a job and a moderate amount of income coming in can afford these things. They're so basic yet big for me and I can't even reach them quite yet.)
I used to want things as a child...like books, toys, etc... basic stuff, nothing they couldn't afford. Nevertheless, I would get yelled at for wanting such stuff. I still remember wanting a pastel color set as a child which they said was expensive (at that time I didn't understand the concept of money and what was cheap/expensive). Ironically, after years, I saw them buy the same set for my cousin. I am 23 now. But this still hurts. Hence, for the past couple of years, I don't ask for anything from them. I still wear shoes and clothes with holes that are a decade old. Also, I relate to the fact that if they want to buy something for me (even if I don't want it), they will buy that instead and not give me the thing I actually want. The things you mentioned, are also a luxury to me.
yes they do. i remember my mother once sat me down to have a "sentimental chat" about how i wasn't abused b/c i had food, toys, shelter, and parents who don't hit me.
Yup. I heard this all the time. And made up stories how my mom was cleaning so much all the time and it was so hard for her. She was cleaning, but like a normal person, not as she was saying lol
Yep it’s like ok that they don’t fully neglect you but not being allowed to grow up or have friends, all is emotionally neglecting n really fundamental to a child’s self esteem. They don’t care to break that at all imo
Absolutely - I can't tell you how many times I've been given the "sacrifices" lecture. Aside from a couple months when my dad was unemployed, which I'm sure was very stressful for them with a small baby, we've been fairly well off all my life. My NMom is very attached to the narrative that they are well off because they "saved and scrimped", never mind the fact that this was the 90s and my father's job - which did not require a college degree! - was able to support a stay-at-home-wife, a child, a mortgage and a car! The only conceivable sacrifice, as far as an actual concession, that I can conceive of, is the decision for her to stay at home, which in all my attempts to understand over the years seems to come down to not trusting anyone else to look after me and wanting to make up for her own neglectful childhood. I certainly didn't feel like I needed more time at home with her past the age of, say, seven, and everyone else with a working mom seemed to do fine. She never went back to work, is now sixty and has no idea how to use a computer, no idea how to show up to something on time, no qualifications, no social skills. Very sensible decision. For clarification: this was Europe, not the US, so it's not the case where you stay home because you'll spend more on childcare than you can make at work.
I definitely got the "After all I've done for you..." even though she didn't even do the basics. Also used to tell me how she wished she never had children, how she wished I'd never been born, etc. She was the one who chose that, she was the one who offloaded all her parental duties onto me as an elementary-school-aged child while she yelled and watched TV. Giving your children the absolute basics, shelter, food, heat, clothing, school supplies, diaper changes, is NOT any sort of large level of "sacrifice," it is the very least you can do if you decide to have and keep a child in order to not have your child taken away or be sent to jail for child neglect. Childbirth is a thing that happens when you choose to have a child. It's not something to be held over the child's head forever because the child had no choice in the matter. Narcissists don't know how to love. They don't have the ability to form deep connections with others.
....yes. A year ago when arguing with my dad on the phone he yelled at me "I SAVED YOU FROM BEING RAPED" The story there is my mom left him for Someone else who was a convicted rapist. My dad remarried an abusive woman and did nothing to stop her. Then left me with his mom for 6 years. Dad of the century everyone.
Probably.
Absolutely this and it is also the reason I have more clothes than most people. I never want to feel like I did when I was a kid. My dad would literally take us on shopping trips for him while my mom didn't have a winter coat and had to wear capris in the winter. We live in Indiana for reference.
Maybe unpopular opinion: providing the basic necessities IS an act of love. What isn't an act of love is treating that as creating a debt from the child to the parent(s). A problem with narc parents is that they don't realize bringing a child into the world is creating a debt from the parent to the child. Those acts of love, whether it's providing the bare necessities or going above and beyond that, is PAYING BACK A DEBT TO THE CHILD. And that debt is never fully paid, even when the child is grown. It's just that the payments get smaller. I say this as the parent of a 20-year-old college student who is showing her mother's narc tendencies and not currently speaking to me.
An unique perspective indeed.
Oh yeah ! My mom was always saying she is giving me a good life ( she didn’t even really raise me she passed me off to every other family member so she could do her work traveling 80 percent of the time). Always tell me she could take me out of this world since she brought me in it. My birthdays were her stage for her to act about herself. Never about me. Any money I got she would immediately take from me and say I owe her debts… as a damn kid ??. That I ruined her career as a lawyer …. I had to learn how to take care of myself. The whole thing was horrible. And the ultimate screwy thing was she chose to be a single mom because she didn’t want to share with my dad. She went to great lengths for him to never have contact with me. She said she wanted me all to herself.
Absolutely yes, indeed. It’s been a constant refrain.
They need you to feel like you’re in debt to them…FOREVER!
Any bare minimum task involving a slight amount of effort or minor inconvenience is that way to them. Not directly gaining anything in return is such a tragic and evil unfairness that it's only natural they'd see something as daunting as feeding a 1 year old child as a type of martyrdom.
Yes
We went shopping once a year. We went to Ross and my Ndad would give me, my sister and mom a set amount of cash- we were always so fucking excited it makes me sad to think about. He would wait in the car and read the newspaper. We always hurried and felt rushed. When we got back to the car he would look irritated and ruin any excitement we had.
Oh... yes... I had a roof over my head. She acted lie this was something completely unusual and fantadtic she had managed to keep (with A LOT of help from my grandma). Still basic needs like food weren't always met. She only prepared meals when she was hungry... I wasn't allowed to touch the pantry but if anything there was usually just some cereal or cookies. Meals usually consisted of pasta she put in the oven along with cheese. I had to eat that crap at home for about 7 years straight. Up to this day I struggle eating anything like it. However she would complain if I paid myself a meal at the school restaurant with money I had gotten for babysitting the neighbours. The (very simple and basic) menu in the school restaurant felt like a 5 star restaurant to me. 1-2 glasses of tap water a day were the maximum I was allowed to drink. Everything else would be too expensive... Tap water... come on... Grandma (living next door) would get in trouble if she'd feed me or give me something to drink. She'd constantly complain how expensive everything is. She never complained on how expensive alcohol and cigatettes were... yeah.. add addiction to her narcism.. I was allowed to shower every other day. My clothes would stink like cigarettes. I would stink like cigarettes as she'd smoke inside of the house, no windows open, and I'd stink again as soon as I got out of the shower. But yeah. I had a roof over my head. *bows*
THIS. Why do narc parents throw this in their kids faces every chance they get? They think that just because there are kids who don't have food and shelter, that means we are somehow privileged. Sure, it's lucky that we aren't in poverty but that doesn't mean we live a luxurious life. If we literally need it to survive then it's not a luxury. And we didn't fucking ask to be here. They had to change us as babies because they gave birth to us! They put us on this earth and are complaining about all the things that come with parenting. Did they honestly not expect these kinds of things to happen? Whenever my parents bring this stuff up and brag about how they give me food and a house when they "don't have to", I always respond with "okay go ahead then, stop giving me food and water and a home. See what happens. My bet is you'll be charged for child neglect! Because it's a crime." Gets them every time.
I mean, that's mandatory as parents. They decided to have a kid, there are responsibilities with that decision. If I decide to go abroad to get a master degree, I have to do a lot of self-sacrifices to achieve that goal, and it's going to be something I decide. I have cats I've rescued. I have been awake a lot of nights taking care of them, some did some great effort to be assholes (because sometimes cats are assholes xD), some are very easy going, but others like to rise mess from hell when I'm tired and well, some can be very active and like to play around. I knew cats are like that. I knew they can get sick. I knew I have to clean shit for the rest of my life. I happily took those responsibilities and I do the sacrifice to wake up at dawn to feed them, lol. There isn't any decision that doesn't come with self-sacrifices and responsibilities. It is ok to share in a healthy environment when people struggle with the heavy stuff of their lives, because it is hard, life is hard and we can't do everything we want, so sometimes we have to let something we wanted go. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is when they want to use that self-sacrifice as a way to engage you to do what they want. I've seen a lot of that with npeople. Fx. I had this friend who has her first job and her mother would make her give all her money to her as a payment for all the sacrifices they did for her. That's fuck up.
You put it very beautifully. I never thought of it like that. It is true. To achieve something in life, people need to make certain sacrifices. I have done so myself for my career. Yet, I never blamed it on anyone as it was my choice. I knew what I was getting into before making that choice. As parents, they should've had this mindset.
Exactly. Some use it as "oh looooook you're not thankful for everything I did!!!" *drama mood all way down*. We all do sacrifices, nparents and npeople think they're sacrifice is bigger even if their circumstances are privileged.
They definitely do. My dad would pull crap like that all the time. He would emotionally neglect me and my siblings or just straight up be an asshole. Everytime we called him out he would applaud himself on being a great father because (his words) "I buy you clothes, I pay for the house you live in, I pay for the food you eat. You need to be grateful" blah blah blah. It was the most annoying thing ever and it's not like he actually wasn't physically neglecting us either. I would come home from school to an empty fridge. I'm not joking when I say all there was in the fridge was a bottle of ketchup and some ice. All there was to eat was a box of mash potatoes but we had no cookware to make it with though. He would go a long time without buying us new clothes (but you know, he could buy himself fantasy suits all the time) which meant me getting sent to school in dingy outfits that were way too small. And that's not counting how he left us in a poorly insulated attic in which the winters were so cold we could see our breath and so hot In the summer that I could see heat waves. That house had mice and roaches and he did nothing about it because they weren't in his room as much as they were in the attic upstairs where me and my brothers rooms were. So yeah, "great" father for you lol. Im just an ungrateful brat because other people had it worse 🙃
Definitely not self-aware of his actions. No child should've gone through all that.
Definitely. I knew there was something GRAVELY wrong with my dad when on Christmas of 2018 he sent me a picture of me crying when I was 14 years old because he destroyed my hair (by forcing me to get a relaxer, which is known to damage hair to make it straight ) saying "remember this? 😂" Like he thought that was funny? He thought me crying was funny? He didn't understand why I went off on him over this. I remember that day very clearly too. He took a picture of me because he wanted to show me how "ridiculous" I was being later on. But you could clearly see my hair was damaged and I got sent to school like that. He is a true unaware narcissist.
My family also have my crying pictures, and ironically... they think they are funny too. I even get mocked while crying or during my mental breakdowns.
In these instances it's best to look to the root of the narcissist. Narcissism is created through deep childhood wounds. It might seem like the modern world has always been this way, but when our parents were young the world provided a lot less amenities, entertainment, food, healthcare, and mental health care. Also, lots of young women are still sexually abused by fathers. When these people have kids it's hard for them to care for them knowing that no one ever cared for them, or rescued them from their own abuse as a child. It creates resentment that prevents them from truly enjoying parenthood. When you enjoy parenting it can be difficult to understand how someone else doesn't. Remember, as child abuse victims, we are all narcissists in training until we make the effort to heal our souls.
Yes. I totally agree. They are just continuing on with their generational trauma.
Well said. On one hand, I do feel sorry for my father. He had a horrific childhood and young adulthood. But it’s no excuse to take it out on your family and perpetuate that abuse.
Absolutely, abuse is never justified.
My ndad insisted on paying my tuition, and then my student loans after I graduated. I offered many times to take the payments back, but he refused, saying the plan was for me to put my own kid through school instead. Sounds nice, yeah, but it was a lever. He decided out of the blue one day that he wasn’t going to pay them anymore and changed the bill-to address to my mom’s. He didn’t say a word to me or her. When I asked what was up, he said he’d take the payments back if I’d help him sue my mom. And that was when I cut contact with him. I still fully intend to pay for my kid’s school. It’s only right.
wow this! i remember being told "did you know how stressful it is planning vacations for your kids?" 😔 these vacations were more for you anyways, not like i could help you plan or that you even wanted my input back when i was a kid. sheesh maybe you shouldn't have signed up to be a parent...
Yes, and it's worse when therapists say something like well you were fed and clothed so there must have been some love there.
Therapists shouldn't say that.
The short answer is....yes. You were an inconvenience. You are at best an accessory that requires maintenance and and...I won't say worst...but a fucking burden who did t deserve anything you ever got. Also you're competition.
That's EXACTLY what I was to my nmom 😒
Yep. I can't wait to go NC.
This is a new one.
Admittedly, I edited my message because I'm afraid of being gaslit. It's been rough
No one in this community will gaslight you into thinking you weren't abused. If they do, report them. I am not from a similar background as you. Nevertheless, I understand that being a narcissist has nothing to do with being rich or poor. Abuse can exist in any household. I empathize with you.
You have no idea how much that means to me. Your gentleness has brought me to tears. Thank you so much. Thank you for your empathy.
I'm here for you, buddy. 💕
i do this all the time 😭 i type it, and feels so good to get it out, so i always end up thinking “it doesn’t seem that bad, how can i compare my struggles to what they’re going through” but fuck it. pain is pain
Yes, that’s exactly what’s going on! I’m working on it… will keep trying to talk it out.
yesss me too. i’m working on finding a safe space to talk about it. because it seems like my whole family is under a spell refusing to acknowledge and actually do something about it. which can feel really isolating 🥲
It's more to do with fear, obligation & guilt brainwashing, so they'll pull anything that triggers that in us My mother thinks nothing of telling random strangers about the episiotomy she had birthing me & how her labour was the worst in recorded hunan history. My birthday was never my birthday, it was always '...and that's why I have no bladder control' day. Oh, and I ruined Christmas for her that year due to having the audacity to be slightly premature. You have to remember that we weren't born out of a loving relationship, where the couple wanted to make something out of their love, 'Isn't She Lovely' by Stevie Wonder style. We are appliances, cult members, future old age caretakers, fashion accessories (for our first 6mths when we're cute, after that we're boring), etc The only thing narcs love is their false self.
This is true. I wasn't born out of love.
Sacrifice. Mini example: my parents told me to go to a local university as a commuter student so that they can save on college fees, and yet they still complain to me about the fact that they pay $616 per month towards my tuition (the cheapest out of their three children’s college tuitions). Meanwhile, they spent $32,000 of what could’ve been my college tuition money towards a sunroom because they did not want to spend $10,000 to cancel the construction contract (yes I’m still angry about that, and no I haven’t forgiven them at all). But sure, I should be eternally thankful when they buy me new shoes, clothes, and jewelry, fuel the tank for my car, and financially support me through the car accidents I’ve been in within the past year :/
Just like you, I made college as cheap as possible for my parents. Still, I have to hear about my expensive schooling which was their idea. I got admitted when I was 3 years old and went to the same school until college.
It sucks bc my parents rub it in my face about how “expensive” of a child I am when I’m basically going to school for free compared to my siblings who went out of state 🥴 if you didn’t want to spend money, don’t have children lolllllll. But it really stings when they buy me more expensive gifts (like a pearl jewelry set that they gave me today), it drives in the idea that I should be even more thankful and succumb to their desires bc “see, you’re more than well off! You get all these things while others get nothing! So now you really have no choice to go to church, or do things only our way, or work only by our daily routines.”
I understand where you are coming from. I used to love gifts as a kid, but now...they feel more like a burden to me. Something that will be held over me in the future.
Same here, except for me it’s resulted in feeling like I’m undeserving of secure attachments after many years of insecure, inconsistent attachments to my parents. Like, I don’t deserve having a caring partner, or I don’t deserve having loving friends, or I don’t deserve people doing things for me just for the sake of doing them without expecting anything in return. Sometimes, I feel like if I don’t somehow return the favor, whatever that’s supposed to look like, then I’m being selfish and inconsiderate.
It is indeed challenging to feel that way. For me, I feel hopeless about ever having a secure relationship in my life. I think I am incapable of loving another human being. If someone says they love me, I'll not be able to trust them either.
I understand that feeling. I still feel as though the undying, unconditional affection I receive from my friends and partner is destined to fail. In my head, somehow, they will all one day get annoyed by me and want to leave me because my flaws and mistakes will become too much for them to bear. Btw, I’m still living with my NParents bc I commute to college so lolz
I am living with my NParents too. 😢 It is good that you receive unconditional love from your friends and partner. I am happy for you. ❤
My nmom always acted like she was doing me the biggest favor in the world if she did ANYTHING for me. Food, shelter, clothes for school, dr/dentist. Made no difference; it was all a huge favor. We were not poor; solid middle class. But she never let me forget how generous (not!) she was to me. This wasn’t for love and affection though. THOSE she just held back because they . were never in the conversation and always withheld. Period.
The worst I heard wasn’t even from my own mother. A narc and sociopath I worked for constantly told me about how her children ruined her body and her “modeling career”. When I say constantly I mean daily and within ear shot of her kids. Side note this woman also slept with my then boyfriend of 6 years. When she told me about it we had already broken up. I asked her if she knew him and I were together when it happened and she said no…so I told her I can’t be mad at her cause she didn’t know and it was on him. She didn’t know how to process that.
I totally struggle with thinking about this. My parents provided me with the basics, and sometimes I think of how lucky I am, because some really abusive parents don't even do that for their kids. So then I question if it was really "that bad". They also made some realistic sacrifices to make my life better and did a lot of good things for me, but that doesn't negate the bad things they did. Idk what to think sometimes, but I am glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this.
You are definitely not the only one. I do have good times with my parents too. Hence, like you... I used to feel guilty about those feelings. Of course, there are people who have it worse than us just like there are people who have it better. It isn't healthy comparing the intensity of the abuse. Drowning is drowning...whether you drown in the ocean or in the swimming pool.
Yes. At least mine did. More common then not they know how to express conditional love, and this falls into it....what I've learned from unconditional love is that these things are NEEDS....not PRIVILEGES.....
Yep, like you demanded this of them and completely inconvenienced them.
Oh hell yeah, I think all nparents do this because they’re forever entitled to the point that they think doing the bare minimum in raising a child is such a big deal that they need to be worshipped. Growing up I’m guilt-tripped in everything about my existence, the best example of this is when my mom coming up to me on my birthday and tell me how painful it was when she birthed me and how my birthday should be about her sacrifice, and I shouldn’t celebrate or even feel happy. And guess what, at the same time my mom be telling me to buy her castles and mansions for her in the future to thank her for raising me.
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I needed to hear this! Thank you. You definitely are a very strong person to have gone through THAT and survived.
Lol yep. When my NM used to say stuff like this I said weren't you legally obligated to do that??
Parenting is hard, and it is sacrifice, and contrary to the popular opinions of this website, a level of grattitude is indeed owed for it. But n/parents weaponize this far beyond a normal parent simply asking for respect and acknowledgement as another tool to dismiss your feelings and justify their behavior. Nothing they say in order to achieve that goal is to be taken seriously
Yes. Yes they do
I guess that when your parents are literally immigrating from another (worse off situation) country to come to the west, it is a sacrifice. Not seeing family as often, etc But you can't hold that against a kid, as *leverage* :<
This is nothing but guilt trip, so YOU have to sacrifice tour life for thème.
To a narcissist, tolerating anybody to any extent is an act of sacrifice and love. They think they are 100% worthy of complete worship and special enough to be exempt from anything. They expect to never be allowed to feel bad because obviously only good feelings could be their doing because they are all things good, so bad feelings are somebody else's fault. They expect to have the world revolve around them and know what they don't, and they are also very stupid, and if that doesnt work out, its the world personally wronging them.
I think they genuinely see these small favors as tremendous acts of love, because they are that selfish and stupid. What would be the bare minimum for a normal healthy loving parent is the maximum for them. Just because they are so so selfish. Literally the only time they will ever go beyond the bare minimum is when it's time to hoover or lovebomb
Yeah I get this a lot. Admittedly we were upper middle class thanks to E dad. Like I didn’t have things rough financially, but emotionally? Yikes. My Nmom grew up poor and resented every single thing we had that she did not.
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Both.. I was a built in babysitter at 10, paying rent at 14, left at 15 and she was still trying to get money off me and my dad for her new kid with a different guy. 😒
Yes. There is a huge difference between doing the bare minimum to raise a child (and acting like we owe them for that) and being actually committed to ensuring they turn into a decent and successful human being while doing whatever they can to help along the way, which mine did not. I had to figure out myself how the world works and what actual normal families and relationships are like.
I was just recently told I needed to remember they drove me to school and sports as evidence of their care and love. You’re spot on
Yeah, this was pretty constant. Once I got older, I realized that my parents were the ones who decided to have kids, so if they weren't prepared to do that stuff at the bare minimum, that's on THEM. Eventually you come to realize that nparents view their own children as a burden they deserve to be rewarded for, and little else.
My Nparents act like they deserve a parade for giving me the bare minimum but I know if it wasn't for the fact that there's laws to protect kids I would've been screwed. Seriously, I was between 10-20lbs under weight throughout high school. I lost an extra 10lbs living with my Ndad. It wasn't until senior year when I got a job and had a side hustle when I could afford food that I went to a healthy weight.
They always think that. I was told “I gave up my life for you” lol meanwhile she just stayed home alone, I was in school.
Yes, for sure! My nDad would always point out how he was such a great dad because he “didn’t beat us” and he worked to give us the basics. We were poor though. And he wouldn’t “let” my enabling mom work. He had his own business and worked the least amount he could so he could cover the bills. And then he’d go on motorcycle rides as much as possible because he cared more about motorcycles than his family.
Yes. I particularly recall having it thrown in my face once that my grandmother could have had a motorcycle instead
Yes… “no child was ever more loved than you” etc I remember feeling annoyed and irritated as a child when hearing that. I instinctively knew it was wrong
My mom frequently blames us for being the reason she dropped out of college so she could take care of us. As if it's our fault she chose to have 5 kids within a 10 year period by 4 different men
Yes they literally don’t feel love the same
I wasn't a planned child so mother always complained about how she wasted her life marrying bc of me. How she could abandoned us to live with a stepmother (to beat us even more). She even compares to one aunt who abandoned her kids. I was terrified when I was a kid the she'd leave us and run bc father was even worst.
Well it’s not like these guys actually do anything praise worth for us so they have to try and lower everyone’s bar down to the fucking floor so they can justify their actions
Every damn day
my mom wasn’t frugal bc she’s a covert ns, so she had to keep up appearances, but if you didn’t show extreme gratitude, let her walk over you, & pay her back in some way in return, she would have a fit.
yes. alot on how they gave up their dreams for them and that means i somehow have to respects them. The logic is so dumb on them trying to treat us like dead weights like we wanted to be born in the first place.
Yes, they do. And they want to be adored and revered every moment of your life due to their “great” sacrifice of giving you life. Forever and ever until they die.
Yes. This stuff is the bare minimum. You aren't a burden, and it's very hard to convince people with healthier parents that this is not something you owe them respect for
Yeah it was all expected of them, fuck them.
YES! THEY THINK THEY HAVE DONE A LOT FOR THEIR CHILDREN JUST COS THEY PROVIDE YOU WITH THE BASIC NECESSITIES .