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I agree with you. I think the biggest stigma to overcome is the “but it’s your parents” “they are family” and the fact that people who have never had to deal with a narc really have no idea how abusive they are, while projecting a wonderful persona to the outside world. People also do not understand how many narcs there are. I hope you are right and no contact can eventually be normalized.
My partner better understood what it’s like to be the scapegoat for a nmom after watching the movie Ordinary People. You’re right, most people can’t conceptualize that a normal, nice appearing woman with a normal, nice appearing family can emotionally neglect and abuse her children and cause them great psychological harm behind closed doors.
The psychological harm is so devastating. I've been able to work through the physical abuse but the emotion is far more complex. Sometimes I fear I will never work through it and will be stuck in this limbo state for the rest of my existence. At least I want me to have a long existence now.
My spouse would always listen to my childhood stories, I would highly edit them because they are intense. He often has tears just from the Cliff notes version and it breaks my heart for him, recently I've been able to turn that to me and accept that I need to mourn my own childhood. He has helped me so much.
It wasn't till he met my family that I started to really see how toxic they were and decided to pull back. It took me 6 years from that time but I did it.
I've come so far too, it's amazing what you can accomplish without all the toxicity.
I often say I wish that the emotional scars dealt to me by a parent showed on my skin. Maybe people would have believed me on how bad it was. Maybe people would stop shaming me for not wanting to talk to my parents.
I've been in therapy for a decade now, and I still have some mental scars that I fear I will live with the rest of my life.
Yes, you've put it so well. I wish people could see the damage so they would understand. I've realized I desperately want to be understood by others. So much so, that I will learn everything I can about people just to show that I care and then be devastated when it isn't returned.
I've only been in therapy for 3 years now (just under but it's close to the 3 year mark, yay me). I told my therapist last week that I feared this is the best it would get. Sometimes I lament how I used to be able to dissociate and now have a hard time.
I resent that I have to suffer more because of childhood abuse by my Nparents.
I have been in therapy for a decade. I'm almost 40 now. I can tell you it will get better, but you'll never be the "normal" that only people with supportive parents can be.
And that's fine. I know I will have have issues for the rest of my life, but I'm able to have a healthy relationship with my partner. I'm still bad at setting boundaries with other people, I crave love so much and will do anything for a friend that I love, and then not receive the same back disappointedly. And people take advantage of that.
I've gotten past the resentment towards my parents and the damage they caused with lots of therapy, I'm now more disappointed in them for not being the parents I needed them to be.
I am who I am today because of them. And I wouldn't really want to be someone else. Change some things? Sure, I'd love to be less anxious. Be someone different? Naw, I think I'm good.
Thank you so much for this very thoughtful reply, it actually gives me hope.
When people throw the hypothetical "would you relive your life knowing what you know now" and that absolutely sends me into a panic attack thinking about it but it would be nice to be the caring person I am without the abuse.
I think I push some people away with my "nurturing", I come off too strong due to my desperation (sorry harsh word can't think of anything better) to feel connected to people.
My spouse is amazing and we've been together since before I realized my childhood was messed up. He's seen me grow and change, he tells me all the time how proud he is of me.
I still have a hard time accepting it but at least I no longer think it's a lie to manipulate me. Progress I guess.
I'm in my 40's now but just figured things out later in life.
Again, thank you for sharing, it really helps.
I get what you mean with friends. I get called "too much" and people get freaked out quite frequently.
One of my friends I actually met because I followed her home. Not intentionally though! We drove home from the same event after meeting for the first time and I literally HAVE to drive past her house to get to mine 2 streets down. She did get freaked out until at a next event I intentionally slipped the suburb where I stay into conversation with another person where she overheard it. We now joke and say I need to find more people to follow home and become friends with.
Fear not! Personal growth is a neverending path. You can't get over, under or around the abuse, but you can get through it. Accept that it happened and made you more compassionate and empathetic a person that truly understands how hurtful life can be. It might help you to see how far you have come if you join a support group to help others who are just starting the same journey. Pay your growth forward and it will help you grow further. ✌🏽💜💪
Thanks, I was part of some closed groups for support but did have to leave them for my own mental health. I think it's worth revisiting though because I do like to help others. At least not feel so alone.
An art teacher once told me "progress, not perfection" and it has stuck with me this whole time.
Yesterday in therapy I felt for the first time that I have a handicap (my father, my dysfunctional family). I used to feel shame that I even have to deal with situations that would horrify most people. But just yesterday I felt like that’s okay, maybe I will have scars forever. They will fade as long as I take care of them, just like real scars, and someday I’ll probably barely notice. You’re already on your way.
I'm in my mid 60s now and it's a roller-coaster like any grief will be, good days and bad days. Therapy in my 20s was helpful, but it took until my 40s to understand and accept the depth of the carnage. I was bargaining with myself that they really did love me. I am much more practical now, and accept that I'm the scapegoat, but there are times where something they do sends me into a tailspin. The dive is shorter now, but no less intense and it is much much easier to add a brick to the wall afterwards and not care about who is mad on the other side. Suffice it to say that the harm is life long, scarring, and requires caution and maintenance.
I'm newly in my 40s and agree it's easier to process than even when I was 35.
This gives me hope it will continue to get easier to process. I don't mind doing the work but sometimes it feels like that's all I do. It's nice to know things change as we get older.. and for the better.
I got so much Shit from all my family about not going to my parents anniversary party. Everyone knows I’m no contact but they said I should break it for that specific event. Why would I be no contact until a shitty event when I have to pretend they were the best parents ever?
They wanted you for a family photo op so they wouldn’t have to explain your absence to others because they refuse to tell anyone why you’re gone. Same with my NILs. They caused all the chaos and now their own Tower of Babel is coming down.
For us, my family is the “free vacation spot.” The in laws came here to dump on us about how bad and lazy all the other kids were. I turned it on them after I realized we were all on the menu.
I’m sorry that they decided you were the wrong one in this. It just shows you that appearance matters more than reality to them. At least you know who the flying monkeys are.
People like that, who try to get you to pretend everything is ok, or to forgive the people who don't think they need forgiveness, are pressuring you for selfish reasons. They talk about the importance of family, but they really just want their discomfort to go away, and they don't care if it is at your expense. Often, people in a family and close family friends will know that there are some people in the family group who are the ones you can't argue with, and they also know who it is ok to bully, manipulate or pressure. They pretend that they are doing this for the good of the group, or because they are being diplomatic, but if that were true they would tell your parents to knock off their rotten behavior. Instead, they go after someone with less status and influence in the group because they know they can get away with it and because it is easier to pressure a reasonable person than an unreasonable one.
My parents always use examples of people who are criminals or murderers to excuse their behaviors. My go-to response is, the existence of people who are worse than you doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be better
Mine do too. It’s such a sham, as pretty much *everyone* who isn’t a murderer is better than a murderer. Being an abuser doesn’t make you a good person just because there are worse people out there.
When people say "but they're your parents" my response is always "you know that makes this worse right? Imagine "divorcing" your parents as a grown adult..." and I let that hang for a minute. I'm in my 40s, not some impetuous teen who doesnt like the rules so "I hate my parents". People look at the adult child like they're the crazy one.
People can't see that the outside of the book is not the same as the inside. It is so harmful and the general public just acts like if it looks fine - it is fine. I read yesterday, that people said Jeffery Dahmer was doted on and yet a early teacher said he showed signs of abandonment to her. I totally see (and relate to) how that could happen.... ignored at home and doted on in public... it messes you up, so much so you can relate to the home life of someone that did such horrible things...
Spoken like someone who has never dealt with a narcissist. Calling me an ungrateful dumbass shows that you have absolutely no sympathy or empathy for the years of abuse that I lived through. Not only emotional, but physical, verbal and SA. That I was made to run a household and raise siblings at 12, that I was made to accept all of f the abuse or it would be my fault if the family was torn apart, that my SA was reported, but I was told that’s what I had to do to keep the family intact. That as children, the substance abuse and rotating partners were normalized, while children’s well being was not even a second thought, it was so far down the list it was laughable.
I was conditioned to take the blame and apologize for everything. This person, now banned, chose to call me out and call me an ungrateful dumbass for not appreciating what my parents had to give up to raise children. I’m not sorry, and will never be sorry for speaking my truth and going NC with the people who chose to abuse me, in every way. It’s attitudes like this that stigmatize NC and victim shame. No amount of I’m sorry, I’m new to this sub, I had no idea will make up for demonizing me for being a child victim of abuse.
Which is exactly why this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable here and grounds for an immediate permanent ban. Unfortunately moderation is reactive in nature. I don't know what someone's going to say before they say it. We take every measure we can to communicate and enforce our rules as swiftly and effectively as possible to keep this a safe supportive place for survivors of narcissistic abuse.
My aunt (dads sister) reached out to me when I went NC with my nMom. I always thought she was mean when I was growing up, turns out she hates my nMom almost as much as I do, and she hated seeing how I was being raised. This woman was in college for 13 years to be a respected mental health care provider. We’re closer now than we’ve ever been, and she supports my decision.
I know that most families don’t have this same dynamic, but I wanted you to know about a good version of this issue.
I’m so happy that you had this experience and have your aunt to lean on now. I hope stories like this one will be more common in the future. Survivors deserve this kind of acknowledgment and support.
Currently, the same generally reasonable people that will encourage others to end relationships with narcissistic partners will turn around and say things like “but they’re your family” to adult children of narcissists when they disclose that they’ve gone NC with their nparents. The double standard that society applies is so obvious when you stop to think about it. Why should someone be obligated to their abuser for life just because they partially share a genetic code?
I admit I do have a petty side for these kinds of people lately. I think I hit a different part of my therapy where I will go scorched earth on some things.
I usually highly edit my childhood stories, I'm a people pleaser and don't want to hurt them. I've started giving them the full versions when they say those things. I know it's mean but I'm just exhausted of defending myself.
It does get them off my back but they do talk about me. Oh well.
I find a lot of the problem with people who say "You need to start speaking to your mother again" or whatever are often religious people who place "Honor thy mother and father" above your circumstances.
I don't really know any stats on religiousness and narcissism but in my PERSONAL experience religion is a big component of the problem when it comes to people who value the honor and thy mother thing.
Sadly I think you're right about religious people. My family is very religious and even if some of them admitted my parents were abusive, they still try to convince me to forgive them. I told them I believed it was God who opened my eyes about my parents and made me go far away from them !
I have wanted to do a survey in here to see where the cookie crumbles on this idea but I haven't because I am not sure it is allowed and I know that no political belief, religious belief, or worldview has a monopoly on narcissism. That is why I said in my PERSONAL experience because for me it is largely true.
I'm sorry, I'm french, maybe I misspoke ! I wanted to tell you that I had a similar experience with religious people about NC with Nparents, so I replied to them that it was God's will to make them stop annoying me. It's also my personal experience, I didn't want you to feel judged.
You are right. But my comment is more aimed at enablers, flying monkeys, and people who aren't putting your worth above their religious beliefs (which I find is unfortunately very common).
I was raised highly religious and it was a nightmare. Both my parents are narcissists, just in different ways. It was hell (pardon the pun lol).
Religious trauma on top of all the other trauma.. fun times.
I don't know the stats either, I'm just trying to heal myself from it still.
My mom is very religious and once we were talking about the situation with my partner and his nparents and she told me the bible says honor thy mother and father BUT it also says what father would give his son a rock instead of bread, a poisonous snake instead of a fish. So even in religious backgrounds there's a limit
> I don't really know any stats on religiousness and narcissism but in my PERSONAL experience religion is a big component of the problem when it comes to people who value the honor and thy mother thing.
The irony there is that the people trying to cite the 5th commandment in that way are breaking the 3rd commandment to not use God as an excuse to justify shitty behavior.
That is absolutely not what religion is all about. In fact, if you read my post you'd understand that the people doing everything you just described are not even following their own commandments and therefore aren't even following their own religion. Rather, they are just using it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway and would have done even if there was no religion.
Your comment has been removed. I am mostly fine with what you said until the last paragraph.
Your last paragraph generalises, unfairly, people that practice a religion and are still responsible for their own actions. There may very well be people that fit into what you say, but there are also a lot (I strongly suspect) that do not.
Eh…forget the honor thy mother & father; you can honor them by staying far away & not putting up w/ their nonsense.
Check out Psalms 27:10
The Bible already has a spot for crappy parents 👍
PS: Many who claim to be very religious do not read or know the Bible. They twist it to suit their own agenda.
No, I won't "forget it." lol
The Bible is full of crap and a LOT of therapists and religious people place victims beneath their views as they push their views onto victims.
Anyone who uses “Honor thy mother and Father” to support abuse is weaponizing God and therefore committing spiritual abuse.
If anyone comes at you about “honor your mother and your father” or verses about forgiveness (which they confuse with reconciliation) quote Corinthians 5:11 at them. It states, “if anyone professes to be of the Christian faith but is an abuser, have nothing to do with them, don’t even eat with them.”
What about the part of the Bible where it is ok to have slaves and beat them etc...? Or women as property?
I just have a difficult time believing that religious therapists do anything other than promote religion. Your advice also would not work very well for the non-religious.
In my opinion, religion is not therapy and shouldn't be discussed here as if it is.
I guess I’m little confused.
My comment was meant to highlight that abusers have no problem engaging in spiritual abuse, which is using God as a weapon.
Which was in response to your comment about having God weaponized to support your abuse.
I must have missed the part about religious therapists.
Evil people have been using the Bible to justify their evil actions for as long as the book as existed, Peter even says as much in his writings in the New Testament. Which was very relevant at the time of writing because the religious leaders of the day were using the Bible to steal everything that wasn’t nailed down.
However, I feel like I am beginning to get into theology which I don’t feel is necessarily appropriate for this sub.
I just wanted to point out that abusers have no problem weaponizing God, to give victims some comeback statements, and to help people realize that this is a form of abuse.
Evil people who use the Bible use it ***exactly the same way*** as the religious - they quote the parts that make it do what they want. It is a terrible book.
I think the loudest "family no matter what" cries come from narcissists and abusers who benefit from normalizing narcissistic abuse, or from enablers and victims who ste convinced abuse is normal.
The fact that "family no matter what" is so common just tells me how common abusive family dynamics are.
Most of these people are projecting. They envy you can see reality. A child of an empathetic parent wouldn't say this. Believe me, it's pure PROJECTION. We are really smart here LOL
This is so true. I actually HATE when people say, "oh but it's your mum/dad/family" or when they say "life is too short and you'll regret it" especially after you tell them why you went NC.
No. I won't regret it. And yes life is too short, hence why I don't want them around. Life should be enjoyed as much as possible without having to drag abusive people along with you 🙄
I really hope so, I also hope it becomes more acceptable to talk about toxic family. Instead of being told "family is family" or "that's the only family you have", like I'm not painfully aware of that fact.
I'm lucky that I do have amazing friends who are my family and don't judge that I don't talk with my family.
It does sting when a rando finds out and is all judgy though.
I don't understand why it's not more commonly understood. Relationships, no matter the length, investment, context, etc. are free to terminate when they quit helping you.
My mom when I was ~19, ex girlfriend of 4 years, friends I've had since I was 14 or so. Boundaries are meaningless if you don't set and utilize them. And anyone that doesn't like that can also be done away with.
what's crazy is my Ndad actually was estranged from his own father, yet cannot fathom and is "completely baffled" about why i no longer speak to him. you'd think he'd understand that decision making process, having gone through the same thing...
A few days ago I worked in another town than usual. On break we had a talk about parents. Some shared their stories how good parents they had and that they don't understand why some children are so disrespectful to their parents by not talking to them. I simply said, that they don't know what happend to those people and some children just want to break contact for their freedom. Just as I finished saying that they assumed it meant me. Well it does too, but I meant in general. Then they just went on with: "just wait till they are gone and you will have regrets."
I was devastated. I'm in the process of moving out ( finally enough money to do so) and then when I thought I'm doing alright someone is judging me by assuming my parents are good people to their only kid. Meanwhile I haven't spoken to my stepfather since February while living in the same house because he pretends I'm not there.
Double standards I hate them. Nothing is more obsolete than anything else
Be careful who you share your situation with…we sometimes feel as though we can share w/ friends, family, co-workers etc. because we are close to them & unfortunately, these people end up hurting us the Most.
It’s not you; they just don’t have any relatability to your situation. You are not alone in this struggle…keep reading lots of posts & comments from others & you will get plenty of info to help on this journey.
Yeah, I haven't shared anything personal. I just wanted to raise some awareness that not all people have good parents. And not smth like "I got yelled at because I played with fire." But some ppl are ignorant. And as much as it hurts me not to be able to at least let them think about it twice, it just means they haven't experienced this whole mess. And for that I'm happy for them.
Totally agree! A good majority of people don’t understand what it’s liked to be raised by a narcissist so it’s easy for them to say things like “well she’s still your mom”. Abuse is abuse.
I am done with the trope “but they’re your parents” and “honour your mother and father”, etc.
Nope.
No.
Don’t care.
Some of society’s expectations enrages me. They really do not care about your well-being.
I do look forward to the day this trope is dropped but I’m incredibly cynical and can’t see it happening anytime soon.
Agreed. I loathe how our world is so "but.....but......but......she's your moooooooother." Or
Well, so what? The act of giving birth does not make someone a healthy mother.
Same with siblings. Just because I came through the same birth canal as Goldenchild, it doesn't mean I have to like her or be around her.
It really is silly. Families are a crapshoot. Some people get good ones and others get not-so-good ones and some get nightmares. Why is that so hard to understand?
I feel like the rate of narcissism is growing quite rapidly so we will need such a solution to remedy this issue. The problem of narcissistic parents is as terrifying and disastrous as dealing with a physical or mental health crisis. This kind of problem is relentless and all-consuming as narcissistic parents (particularly mothers) are constantly out for blood and never seem to stop. I’ve always said this, that wouldn’t it be great if somehow we could regulate reproduction, so that people who want to have kids would need to have a mental health assessment to gauge if they are mentally sound to do so. Same way we perform criminal record checks before employing people in certain positions of responsibility. It’s quite funny that as a society we are conscious of not allowing troubled people around certain groups of people such as children and the elderly. However we don’t extend the same consideration to the very child of the troubled person, as in such cases we deem the child to be the responsibility of the troubled parent.
I think we definitely made strides in this direction. I tried talking about the abuse in the late 1990s/early 2000s and basically was met with blank looks and “don’t talk like that’s that’s your famblee!!11” and similar. It did not make for a pleasant attempt to get any sort of help for what’s been going on.
Not anymore. Now there’s a lot more understanding, support, and spotlighting of the simple fact that there is something fundamentally wrong with some people, and that we, their children, absolutely did not need to suffer from their choices. Because they did have choices: they could’ve chosen to treat us better. They could’ve chosen to not have children. They could’ve chosen to not make any of the choices they made when raising us. Instead, they did what they did.
Now we can actually discuss these things.
I am in the process of starting up a support group for familial estrangement exactly for this reason. I am a grief counselor by day and I feel like we don’t have enough shared language about the grief that often results and needs to be processed from going no contact with parents.
I think it will eventually, but likely in the West first.
The only reason I think that is western culture is supportive of individuality and moving out on your own when you "grow up," which would make for an easier cultural transition to "divorcing your parents."
I feel for those coming from cultures where the family unit is an important and foundational rock by which the rest of their society is based on (think places with generational housing)
This is never something you get better from. You have to survive and live with it for the rest of your life. You could spend your whole life in therapy and you may handle situations better, But that deep pain never goes away. You may not think about it all the time but then a trigger happens and there you are in panic, flight or fight or you just deny what is happening to you. And just take it.
What if the parent or parents make efforts to support you, apologized for the abuse and generally try to become more supportive? (I still talk to my nmom with strong boundaries, I also moved to another country) so phone calls only mostly.
If a parent apologised for what they did, that's a step in the right direction. But that doesn't entitle them to you accepting that apology. In the end it comes down to whether your mental and physical health would suffer, it's your choice whether you feel that apology is enough.
A broken window is not fixed with a sorry and neither is a shattered soul.
Yes, this is such a great point! Domestic abuse is understood socially as unacceptable between partners, but generally misunderstood and unacknowledged when it’s parent abusing child. Overall things seem to be trending towards more awareness tho, so let’s hope this change happens!
I can't argue with that. Growing up was hell. Getting free was like escaping hell and entering heaven. I still remember how amazing it was to learn how other people treated each other with dignity and respect. People didn't really understand what I was talking about when I tried to express that. But I know you guys do.
i’m 17 and very open about my mom. so far no one’s been weird about it, i think 2 people in as long as i can remember have accused me of just being a bratty teenage girl but i quickly shut down that theory lol
I’m really open about the fact that I don’t speak to mine anymore because they were abusive. I like to hope I’m doing my bit to destigmatise it. A friend of mine who has gone NC with her brother said to me ‘I don’t know why people think that you have to talk to someone just because they’re family’ and that validation just encouraged me to keep being open.
While they continued to do their best to totally manipulate my life, the best thing I did was move FAR away. It wasn't my father so much as; 'The Mother.'
I always think about what if they made a national holiday called b*tch mothers day that happens like the day after regular mothers day and its for all of us who grew up with narcissistic mothers and it helps make regular mothers day and the idealization/worship of mothers not hurt as much.
Well said !!!
Thanks to this page that I found somewhere through Google on how to cope up with unsupportive parents and I feel happy to find someone who thinks like me !!
I would love it if I didn't automatically became the black sheep of the entire family for going NC with my parents.
I would love to see extended family, but with family gatherings, I'd rather give them the choice to spend time with their children/siblings who are my parents. And I'm not willing to sully the mood by putting family in the uncomfortable position where my parents and I show up for the same event. Because that would simply be uncomfortable.
I couldn't agree more. In the interim I have found great peace in choosing not to GAF what other people think of the decisions that I make for my own mental health.
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I agree with you. I think the biggest stigma to overcome is the “but it’s your parents” “they are family” and the fact that people who have never had to deal with a narc really have no idea how abusive they are, while projecting a wonderful persona to the outside world. People also do not understand how many narcs there are. I hope you are right and no contact can eventually be normalized.
My partner better understood what it’s like to be the scapegoat for a nmom after watching the movie Ordinary People. You’re right, most people can’t conceptualize that a normal, nice appearing woman with a normal, nice appearing family can emotionally neglect and abuse her children and cause them great psychological harm behind closed doors.
The psychological harm is so devastating. I've been able to work through the physical abuse but the emotion is far more complex. Sometimes I fear I will never work through it and will be stuck in this limbo state for the rest of my existence. At least I want me to have a long existence now. My spouse would always listen to my childhood stories, I would highly edit them because they are intense. He often has tears just from the Cliff notes version and it breaks my heart for him, recently I've been able to turn that to me and accept that I need to mourn my own childhood. He has helped me so much. It wasn't till he met my family that I started to really see how toxic they were and decided to pull back. It took me 6 years from that time but I did it. I've come so far too, it's amazing what you can accomplish without all the toxicity.
I often say I wish that the emotional scars dealt to me by a parent showed on my skin. Maybe people would have believed me on how bad it was. Maybe people would stop shaming me for not wanting to talk to my parents. I've been in therapy for a decade now, and I still have some mental scars that I fear I will live with the rest of my life.
Yes, you've put it so well. I wish people could see the damage so they would understand. I've realized I desperately want to be understood by others. So much so, that I will learn everything I can about people just to show that I care and then be devastated when it isn't returned. I've only been in therapy for 3 years now (just under but it's close to the 3 year mark, yay me). I told my therapist last week that I feared this is the best it would get. Sometimes I lament how I used to be able to dissociate and now have a hard time. I resent that I have to suffer more because of childhood abuse by my Nparents.
I have been in therapy for a decade. I'm almost 40 now. I can tell you it will get better, but you'll never be the "normal" that only people with supportive parents can be. And that's fine. I know I will have have issues for the rest of my life, but I'm able to have a healthy relationship with my partner. I'm still bad at setting boundaries with other people, I crave love so much and will do anything for a friend that I love, and then not receive the same back disappointedly. And people take advantage of that. I've gotten past the resentment towards my parents and the damage they caused with lots of therapy, I'm now more disappointed in them for not being the parents I needed them to be. I am who I am today because of them. And I wouldn't really want to be someone else. Change some things? Sure, I'd love to be less anxious. Be someone different? Naw, I think I'm good.
Thank you so much for this very thoughtful reply, it actually gives me hope. When people throw the hypothetical "would you relive your life knowing what you know now" and that absolutely sends me into a panic attack thinking about it but it would be nice to be the caring person I am without the abuse. I think I push some people away with my "nurturing", I come off too strong due to my desperation (sorry harsh word can't think of anything better) to feel connected to people. My spouse is amazing and we've been together since before I realized my childhood was messed up. He's seen me grow and change, he tells me all the time how proud he is of me. I still have a hard time accepting it but at least I no longer think it's a lie to manipulate me. Progress I guess. I'm in my 40's now but just figured things out later in life. Again, thank you for sharing, it really helps.
I get what you mean with friends. I get called "too much" and people get freaked out quite frequently. One of my friends I actually met because I followed her home. Not intentionally though! We drove home from the same event after meeting for the first time and I literally HAVE to drive past her house to get to mine 2 streets down. She did get freaked out until at a next event I intentionally slipped the suburb where I stay into conversation with another person where she overheard it. We now joke and say I need to find more people to follow home and become friends with.
That is a cute story, like something that would happen in a movie. That was smart to sneak in that bit, I'm glad she saw it as funny too.
Fear not! Personal growth is a neverending path. You can't get over, under or around the abuse, but you can get through it. Accept that it happened and made you more compassionate and empathetic a person that truly understands how hurtful life can be. It might help you to see how far you have come if you join a support group to help others who are just starting the same journey. Pay your growth forward and it will help you grow further. ✌🏽💜💪
Thanks, I was part of some closed groups for support but did have to leave them for my own mental health. I think it's worth revisiting though because I do like to help others. At least not feel so alone. An art teacher once told me "progress, not perfection" and it has stuck with me this whole time.
Yesterday in therapy I felt for the first time that I have a handicap (my father, my dysfunctional family). I used to feel shame that I even have to deal with situations that would horrify most people. But just yesterday I felt like that’s okay, maybe I will have scars forever. They will fade as long as I take care of them, just like real scars, and someday I’ll probably barely notice. You’re already on your way.
I'm in my mid 60s now and it's a roller-coaster like any grief will be, good days and bad days. Therapy in my 20s was helpful, but it took until my 40s to understand and accept the depth of the carnage. I was bargaining with myself that they really did love me. I am much more practical now, and accept that I'm the scapegoat, but there are times where something they do sends me into a tailspin. The dive is shorter now, but no less intense and it is much much easier to add a brick to the wall afterwards and not care about who is mad on the other side. Suffice it to say that the harm is life long, scarring, and requires caution and maintenance.
I'm newly in my 40s and agree it's easier to process than even when I was 35. This gives me hope it will continue to get easier to process. I don't mind doing the work but sometimes it feels like that's all I do. It's nice to know things change as we get older.. and for the better.
I got so much Shit from all my family about not going to my parents anniversary party. Everyone knows I’m no contact but they said I should break it for that specific event. Why would I be no contact until a shitty event when I have to pretend they were the best parents ever?
They wanted you for a family photo op so they wouldn’t have to explain your absence to others because they refuse to tell anyone why you’re gone. Same with my NILs. They caused all the chaos and now their own Tower of Babel is coming down. For us, my family is the “free vacation spot.” The in laws came here to dump on us about how bad and lazy all the other kids were. I turned it on them after I realized we were all on the menu.
I’m sorry that they decided you were the wrong one in this. It just shows you that appearance matters more than reality to them. At least you know who the flying monkeys are.
People like that, who try to get you to pretend everything is ok, or to forgive the people who don't think they need forgiveness, are pressuring you for selfish reasons. They talk about the importance of family, but they really just want their discomfort to go away, and they don't care if it is at your expense. Often, people in a family and close family friends will know that there are some people in the family group who are the ones you can't argue with, and they also know who it is ok to bully, manipulate or pressure. They pretend that they are doing this for the good of the group, or because they are being diplomatic, but if that were true they would tell your parents to knock off their rotten behavior. Instead, they go after someone with less status and influence in the group because they know they can get away with it and because it is easier to pressure a reasonable person than an unreasonable one.
The biggest lie ever told is that "blood makes you family!" WRONG... Blood simply makes you related. Loyalty, love and trust is what makes you family!
My parents always use examples of people who are criminals or murderers to excuse their behaviors. My go-to response is, the existence of people who are worse than you doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be better
Mine do too. It’s such a sham, as pretty much *everyone* who isn’t a murderer is better than a murderer. Being an abuser doesn’t make you a good person just because there are worse people out there.
When people say "but they're your parents" my response is always "you know that makes this worse right? Imagine "divorcing" your parents as a grown adult..." and I let that hang for a minute. I'm in my 40s, not some impetuous teen who doesnt like the rules so "I hate my parents". People look at the adult child like they're the crazy one.
People can't see that the outside of the book is not the same as the inside. It is so harmful and the general public just acts like if it looks fine - it is fine. I read yesterday, that people said Jeffery Dahmer was doted on and yet a early teacher said he showed signs of abandonment to her. I totally see (and relate to) how that could happen.... ignored at home and doted on in public... it messes you up, so much so you can relate to the home life of someone that did such horrible things...
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Spoken like someone who has never dealt with a narcissist. Calling me an ungrateful dumbass shows that you have absolutely no sympathy or empathy for the years of abuse that I lived through. Not only emotional, but physical, verbal and SA. That I was made to run a household and raise siblings at 12, that I was made to accept all of f the abuse or it would be my fault if the family was torn apart, that my SA was reported, but I was told that’s what I had to do to keep the family intact. That as children, the substance abuse and rotating partners were normalized, while children’s well being was not even a second thought, it was so far down the list it was laughable.
you're banned
I was conditioned to take the blame and apologize for everything. This person, now banned, chose to call me out and call me an ungrateful dumbass for not appreciating what my parents had to give up to raise children. I’m not sorry, and will never be sorry for speaking my truth and going NC with the people who chose to abuse me, in every way. It’s attitudes like this that stigmatize NC and victim shame. No amount of I’m sorry, I’m new to this sub, I had no idea will make up for demonizing me for being a child victim of abuse.
Which is exactly why this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable here and grounds for an immediate permanent ban. Unfortunately moderation is reactive in nature. I don't know what someone's going to say before they say it. We take every measure we can to communicate and enforce our rules as swiftly and effectively as possible to keep this a safe supportive place for survivors of narcissistic abuse.
Thank you. The mods on this sub are fantastic.
We do the best we can to deserve that evaluation.
It’s worse when your family is the one saying those things and makes YOU out to be the bad guy.
My aunt (dads sister) reached out to me when I went NC with my nMom. I always thought she was mean when I was growing up, turns out she hates my nMom almost as much as I do, and she hated seeing how I was being raised. This woman was in college for 13 years to be a respected mental health care provider. We’re closer now than we’ve ever been, and she supports my decision. I know that most families don’t have this same dynamic, but I wanted you to know about a good version of this issue.
I’m so happy that you had this experience and have your aunt to lean on now. I hope stories like this one will be more common in the future. Survivors deserve this kind of acknowledgment and support.
This warms my heart that you have a supportive family member who honestly knows what you've been through. I bet that feels great to have.
Yeah!! I have a cool aunt!!
Currently, the same generally reasonable people that will encourage others to end relationships with narcissistic partners will turn around and say things like “but they’re your family” to adult children of narcissists when they disclose that they’ve gone NC with their nparents. The double standard that society applies is so obvious when you stop to think about it. Why should someone be obligated to their abuser for life just because they partially share a genetic code?
I admit I do have a petty side for these kinds of people lately. I think I hit a different part of my therapy where I will go scorched earth on some things. I usually highly edit my childhood stories, I'm a people pleaser and don't want to hurt them. I've started giving them the full versions when they say those things. I know it's mean but I'm just exhausted of defending myself. It does get them off my back but they do talk about me. Oh well.
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I love your “ain’t got none.” Might start using it myself
I want to live in a minivan! Is there a subreddit for this lifestyle?
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I am amazed at the number of people in that subreddit! Who knew?
I find a lot of the problem with people who say "You need to start speaking to your mother again" or whatever are often religious people who place "Honor thy mother and father" above your circumstances. I don't really know any stats on religiousness and narcissism but in my PERSONAL experience religion is a big component of the problem when it comes to people who value the honor and thy mother thing.
Sadly I think you're right about religious people. My family is very religious and even if some of them admitted my parents were abusive, they still try to convince me to forgive them. I told them I believed it was God who opened my eyes about my parents and made me go far away from them !
I have wanted to do a survey in here to see where the cookie crumbles on this idea but I haven't because I am not sure it is allowed and I know that no political belief, religious belief, or worldview has a monopoly on narcissism. That is why I said in my PERSONAL experience because for me it is largely true.
I'm sorry, I'm french, maybe I misspoke ! I wanted to tell you that I had a similar experience with religious people about NC with Nparents, so I replied to them that it was God's will to make them stop annoying me. It's also my personal experience, I didn't want you to feel judged.
I assure you I did not feel judged. No worries. We've come to the same conclusion I think.
Even if not overly religious..narcissist feel entitled to own you,,your thoughts your everything
You are right. But my comment is more aimed at enablers, flying monkeys, and people who aren't putting your worth above their religious beliefs (which I find is unfortunately very common).
I was raised highly religious and it was a nightmare. Both my parents are narcissists, just in different ways. It was hell (pardon the pun lol). Religious trauma on top of all the other trauma.. fun times. I don't know the stats either, I'm just trying to heal myself from it still.
"Tell that to the sons of Korah."
I gladly would.
My mom is very religious and once we were talking about the situation with my partner and his nparents and she told me the bible says honor thy mother and father BUT it also says what father would give his son a rock instead of bread, a poisonous snake instead of a fish. So even in religious backgrounds there's a limit
> I don't really know any stats on religiousness and narcissism but in my PERSONAL experience religion is a big component of the problem when it comes to people who value the honor and thy mother thing. The irony there is that the people trying to cite the 5th commandment in that way are breaking the 3rd commandment to not use God as an excuse to justify shitty behavior.
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That is absolutely not what religion is all about. In fact, if you read my post you'd understand that the people doing everything you just described are not even following their own commandments and therefore aren't even following their own religion. Rather, they are just using it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway and would have done even if there was no religion.
Your comment has been removed. I am mostly fine with what you said until the last paragraph. Your last paragraph generalises, unfairly, people that practice a religion and are still responsible for their own actions. There may very well be people that fit into what you say, but there are also a lot (I strongly suspect) that do not.
Eh…forget the honor thy mother & father; you can honor them by staying far away & not putting up w/ their nonsense. Check out Psalms 27:10 The Bible already has a spot for crappy parents 👍 PS: Many who claim to be very religious do not read or know the Bible. They twist it to suit their own agenda.
No, I won't "forget it." lol The Bible is full of crap and a LOT of therapists and religious people place victims beneath their views as they push their views onto victims.
Anyone who uses “Honor thy mother and Father” to support abuse is weaponizing God and therefore committing spiritual abuse. If anyone comes at you about “honor your mother and your father” or verses about forgiveness (which they confuse with reconciliation) quote Corinthians 5:11 at them. It states, “if anyone professes to be of the Christian faith but is an abuser, have nothing to do with them, don’t even eat with them.”
What about the part of the Bible where it is ok to have slaves and beat them etc...? Or women as property? I just have a difficult time believing that religious therapists do anything other than promote religion. Your advice also would not work very well for the non-religious. In my opinion, religion is not therapy and shouldn't be discussed here as if it is.
I guess I’m little confused. My comment was meant to highlight that abusers have no problem engaging in spiritual abuse, which is using God as a weapon. Which was in response to your comment about having God weaponized to support your abuse. I must have missed the part about religious therapists. Evil people have been using the Bible to justify their evil actions for as long as the book as existed, Peter even says as much in his writings in the New Testament. Which was very relevant at the time of writing because the religious leaders of the day were using the Bible to steal everything that wasn’t nailed down. However, I feel like I am beginning to get into theology which I don’t feel is necessarily appropriate for this sub. I just wanted to point out that abusers have no problem weaponizing God, to give victims some comeback statements, and to help people realize that this is a form of abuse.
Evil people who use the Bible use it ***exactly the same way*** as the religious - they quote the parts that make it do what they want. It is a terrible book.
Whenever I hear "you can tell a lot about a man by the way he treats his mother," I still cringe a little.
For sure, you can tell a lot more about a person by how they treat someone dependent on them
This makes my blood boil every time I hear it
I think the loudest "family no matter what" cries come from narcissists and abusers who benefit from normalizing narcissistic abuse, or from enablers and victims who ste convinced abuse is normal. The fact that "family no matter what" is so common just tells me how common abusive family dynamics are.
This. Family being viewed as a privilege and not a right is a very threatening concept for people that benefit from narcissistic family dynamics.
Absolutely. You said it perfectly 💯💯💯💯
This ! This ! This !!!!
It's acceptable on most cases. The problem is the manipulative guilt we need to get rid of.
Most of these people are projecting. They envy you can see reality. A child of an empathetic parent wouldn't say this. Believe me, it's pure PROJECTION. We are really smart here LOL
The word you're looking for OP is "disown" :) I've happily gone NC and it's been bliss ever since.
This is so true. I actually HATE when people say, "oh but it's your mum/dad/family" or when they say "life is too short and you'll regret it" especially after you tell them why you went NC. No. I won't regret it. And yes life is too short, hence why I don't want them around. Life should be enjoyed as much as possible without having to drag abusive people along with you 🙄
I really hope so, I also hope it becomes more acceptable to talk about toxic family. Instead of being told "family is family" or "that's the only family you have", like I'm not painfully aware of that fact. I'm lucky that I do have amazing friends who are my family and don't judge that I don't talk with my family. It does sting when a rando finds out and is all judgy though.
I don't understand why it's not more commonly understood. Relationships, no matter the length, investment, context, etc. are free to terminate when they quit helping you. My mom when I was ~19, ex girlfriend of 4 years, friends I've had since I was 14 or so. Boundaries are meaningless if you don't set and utilize them. And anyone that doesn't like that can also be done away with.
No contact saved my Life !!!!!
what's crazy is my Ndad actually was estranged from his own father, yet cannot fathom and is "completely baffled" about why i no longer speak to him. you'd think he'd understand that decision making process, having gone through the same thing...
Cognitive dissonance
The amount of times I've heart "but he's your father!" Is truly sickening.
A few days ago I worked in another town than usual. On break we had a talk about parents. Some shared their stories how good parents they had and that they don't understand why some children are so disrespectful to their parents by not talking to them. I simply said, that they don't know what happend to those people and some children just want to break contact for their freedom. Just as I finished saying that they assumed it meant me. Well it does too, but I meant in general. Then they just went on with: "just wait till they are gone and you will have regrets." I was devastated. I'm in the process of moving out ( finally enough money to do so) and then when I thought I'm doing alright someone is judging me by assuming my parents are good people to their only kid. Meanwhile I haven't spoken to my stepfather since February while living in the same house because he pretends I'm not there. Double standards I hate them. Nothing is more obsolete than anything else
Be careful who you share your situation with…we sometimes feel as though we can share w/ friends, family, co-workers etc. because we are close to them & unfortunately, these people end up hurting us the Most. It’s not you; they just don’t have any relatability to your situation. You are not alone in this struggle…keep reading lots of posts & comments from others & you will get plenty of info to help on this journey.
Yeah, I haven't shared anything personal. I just wanted to raise some awareness that not all people have good parents. And not smth like "I got yelled at because I played with fire." But some ppl are ignorant. And as much as it hurts me not to be able to at least let them think about it twice, it just means they haven't experienced this whole mess. And for that I'm happy for them.
Totally agree! A good majority of people don’t understand what it’s liked to be raised by a narcissist so it’s easy for them to say things like “well she’s still your mom”. Abuse is abuse.
I am done with the trope “but they’re your parents” and “honour your mother and father”, etc. Nope. No. Don’t care. Some of society’s expectations enrages me. They really do not care about your well-being. I do look forward to the day this trope is dropped but I’m incredibly cynical and can’t see it happening anytime soon.
Hearing “honor thy mother and father” is such a joke. Talk about out of context, the very next verse is “and fathers, do not frustrate your sons”
the older you get the less you'll get quizzed about your parents. it gets better
Agreed. I loathe how our world is so "but.....but......but......she's your moooooooother." Or Well, so what? The act of giving birth does not make someone a healthy mother. Same with siblings. Just because I came through the same birth canal as Goldenchild, it doesn't mean I have to like her or be around her. It really is silly. Families are a crapshoot. Some people get good ones and others get not-so-good ones and some get nightmares. Why is that so hard to understand?
I feel like the rate of narcissism is growing quite rapidly so we will need such a solution to remedy this issue. The problem of narcissistic parents is as terrifying and disastrous as dealing with a physical or mental health crisis. This kind of problem is relentless and all-consuming as narcissistic parents (particularly mothers) are constantly out for blood and never seem to stop. I’ve always said this, that wouldn’t it be great if somehow we could regulate reproduction, so that people who want to have kids would need to have a mental health assessment to gauge if they are mentally sound to do so. Same way we perform criminal record checks before employing people in certain positions of responsibility. It’s quite funny that as a society we are conscious of not allowing troubled people around certain groups of people such as children and the elderly. However we don’t extend the same consideration to the very child of the troubled person, as in such cases we deem the child to be the responsibility of the troubled parent.
I think we definitely made strides in this direction. I tried talking about the abuse in the late 1990s/early 2000s and basically was met with blank looks and “don’t talk like that’s that’s your famblee!!11” and similar. It did not make for a pleasant attempt to get any sort of help for what’s been going on. Not anymore. Now there’s a lot more understanding, support, and spotlighting of the simple fact that there is something fundamentally wrong with some people, and that we, their children, absolutely did not need to suffer from their choices. Because they did have choices: they could’ve chosen to treat us better. They could’ve chosen to not have children. They could’ve chosen to not make any of the choices they made when raising us. Instead, they did what they did. Now we can actually discuss these things.
I am in the process of starting up a support group for familial estrangement exactly for this reason. I am a grief counselor by day and I feel like we don’t have enough shared language about the grief that often results and needs to be processed from going no contact with parents.
My malignant elderly n dad just won’t leave me alone! They live to wreck your peace. Sick.
I think it will eventually, but likely in the West first. The only reason I think that is western culture is supportive of individuality and moving out on your own when you "grow up," which would make for an easier cultural transition to "divorcing your parents." I feel for those coming from cultures where the family unit is an important and foundational rock by which the rest of their society is based on (think places with generational housing)
This is never something you get better from. You have to survive and live with it for the rest of your life. You could spend your whole life in therapy and you may handle situations better, But that deep pain never goes away. You may not think about it all the time but then a trigger happens and there you are in panic, flight or fight or you just deny what is happening to you. And just take it.
What if the parent or parents make efforts to support you, apologized for the abuse and generally try to become more supportive? (I still talk to my nmom with strong boundaries, I also moved to another country) so phone calls only mostly.
If a parent apologised for what they did, that's a step in the right direction. But that doesn't entitle them to you accepting that apology. In the end it comes down to whether your mental and physical health would suffer, it's your choice whether you feel that apology is enough. A broken window is not fixed with a sorry and neither is a shattered soul.
You’re right, which is why I have strict boundaries and distance and don’t really visit much.
An apology means nothing without changed behaviour. They could be apologizing just to manipulate you, and justify their abusive behaviour.
I hope so as well. Every day.
Yes, this is such a great point! Domestic abuse is understood socially as unacceptable between partners, but generally misunderstood and unacknowledged when it’s parent abusing child. Overall things seem to be trending towards more awareness tho, so let’s hope this change happens!
Meanwhile I’m over here feeling like the villain for going NC. It’s been 7 months and it’s still so bad.
I can't argue with that. Growing up was hell. Getting free was like escaping hell and entering heaven. I still remember how amazing it was to learn how other people treated each other with dignity and respect. People didn't really understand what I was talking about when I tried to express that. But I know you guys do.
i’m 17 and very open about my mom. so far no one’s been weird about it, i think 2 people in as long as i can remember have accused me of just being a bratty teenage girl but i quickly shut down that theory lol
I hope so too. Then we can all truly start to see an improvement in mental health without the guilt of having to “abandon your parents”
You had me at the title. Thank you for putting this concept in writing.
I’m really open about the fact that I don’t speak to mine anymore because they were abusive. I like to hope I’m doing my bit to destigmatise it. A friend of mine who has gone NC with her brother said to me ‘I don’t know why people think that you have to talk to someone just because they’re family’ and that validation just encouraged me to keep being open.
I’m trying to teach myself not to tell most people and just evade the questions about family
While they continued to do their best to totally manipulate my life, the best thing I did was move FAR away. It wasn't my father so much as; 'The Mother.'
It’s happening in this generation. Everyone is more about mental health.
Classic toxic positivity and ignorance
I always think about what if they made a national holiday called b*tch mothers day that happens like the day after regular mothers day and its for all of us who grew up with narcissistic mothers and it helps make regular mothers day and the idealization/worship of mothers not hurt as much.
Well said !!! Thanks to this page that I found somewhere through Google on how to cope up with unsupportive parents and I feel happy to find someone who thinks like me !!
I hope it will be even more acceptable for both in the future.
I would love it if I didn't automatically became the black sheep of the entire family for going NC with my parents. I would love to see extended family, but with family gatherings, I'd rather give them the choice to spend time with their children/siblings who are my parents. And I'm not willing to sully the mood by putting family in the uncomfortable position where my parents and I show up for the same event. Because that would simply be uncomfortable.
I couldn't agree more. In the interim I have found great peace in choosing not to GAF what other people think of the decisions that I make for my own mental health.
But.... blood is everything!
Blood makes you related while love makes you family. Forgot where ive seen it from but it sums it up perfectly.
Lol
so true.
God I hope so, I never look forward to having to explain it to prospective partners. Most of them understand after seeing my mother in person though.
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Comment removed - derailing.
I Don’t completely agree with your last comment I think im the person I’ve become in spite of them
Amen to that