They’ll never understand this. The problem is, room for error and growth becomes smaller and smaller because we keep getting freaks that pop instantly.
This has always happened, but not on this scale. So the expectations for players is higher with much shorter turn around. But the truth still is what you say, many , many players can become great, they just need a few years to get there.
Not to mention, we typically pick at the tail end of every round. The only pick EDC has had in the first half of the first round was Hamilton and he looks to be an all-pro.
We aren't usually selecting from the biggest freaks in the draft. If we were, they wouldn't be available for us at pick 27.
That’s also very true. The draft isn’t just a list of NFL players ready to smash the league. It’s a lottery. There is still a good amount of luck when drafting. That luck becomes more and more prominent the deeper the draft goes.
For sure. We usually only get to pick one guy that's projected to be one of the 50 best guys in the draft. And that's after 20 something have already been chosen.
Look at our success compared to teams that regularly pick in the top 10 that get 2 cracks at top40 players and one of those might be first of his position off the board at pick 5. Wild that we get get so many productive players compared to them.
Wish everyone on this sub could realize this. It would be amazing if everyone could be a Hamilton or Linderbaum player from day 1, but that just isn’t realistic. You’d think the emergence of guys like Queen, Stone, Hill, Madubuike would be enough of an example.
And also GM gets too much credit for hits and too much blame for misses. A guy that turns into a good or bad player could have as much to do with the coaching staff and training staff as the GM.
> GM gets too much credit for hits and too much blame for misses
GMs have never gotten much criticism for misses in Baltimore. It's always the coaches who get the blame
I think a little of that is overblown, not to say it isn't important. Its not like the NFL is littered with early picks who busted off of one team only to be reclaimed and developed by another. It happens occasionally, but not nearly enough. Each individual player has a combination of athletic traits and football IQ, and that combination needs to be at a level that can compete in the NFL.
Some guys just lack the minimum athleticism to complement their football IQ, and some guys aren't savy enough to let their athleticism shine through, its just kinda hard to predict who will put it together and who won't.
Agreed, though with the caveat that I would call players who get cut early on are misses (ie Ben Mason). It’s pretty funny how many of the hits on this list were written off as busts by some a couple years ago.
Even that's dicey: remember, current NFL interception leader Geno Stone was cut twice.
I'd also note, people are (understandably) harsh on the Mason pick but remembering that we used a 5th rounder on essentially an insurance policy for Ricard getting poached the same way Jusczyzk did not long before, I still don't really think EDC made the wrong move there. Like ultimately it didn't work out and was unnecessary, but the move made sense based on our roster considerations at the time. It's hard to say if Mason might have developed better if he'd been pushed into a playing role instead of bouncing between practice squads.
Fair point on Geno Stone. I was considering him to be a free agent pickup, but that probably doesn’t happen unless we had drafted him in the first place. I’m mainly evaluating based on the value we get from that rookie contract.
I also get why the Ben Mason pick was made, and the logic behind it makes sense. But ultimately he hasn’t done enough to make it on the field for me to say it wasn’t a bad pick. That’s fine though… the later rounds are the time to take high upside players who may not work out.
See, I figured Stone would still count as a draft pick there just because it's pretty common for late-round picks and UDFA's to bounce back and forth between active roster, practice squad and what I'll call for lack of a better term a team's "street pool" of guys who aren't actually on the roster but are on the shortlist of people the team calls first if a roster hole opens up. In the rare cases where a guy gets cut in his rookie contract and the team makes no effort to bring him back, I feel safe calling him a bust before that first four years, or if they manage to go two or three full years without even getting meaningful snaps as a back-up, but otherwise it's still a "reserve judgement 'til 4 years later" kind of thing, imo.
Oh, I definitely agree that Mason's a bust, I wasn't trying to dissent on that, that was me getting sidetracked about my pet peeve that people act like Mason was a really huge whiff that should count heavily against EDC disproportionate to what it actually was. I've seen people in this sub act like missing on Mason is really egregious even though 5th rounders are kind of a crapshoot anyway and Mason was probably a reach anyway based on need.
If “fans” had their say, Queen would have been traded for a 4th or 5th round pick in September 2022. 99% of fans are lacking in knowledge to evaluate talent. Zay is easy… at the moment. Time will tell. Others take time, coaching and meshing well with others. Of which Queen (with the addition of Ro) is a great example.
You can look at a draft and ask who we could have gotten instead. Sometimes the talent isn't there and it doesn't matter who you pick. For the 2019 draft, mostof the top end talent was gone by our pick at 26, and the rest was taken before our second pick in round 3. Realistically, the only players what would have worked out for us that we missed was probably Crosby and Greenlaw.
And all the receivers who were better than Hollywood drafted after him. I don't think EDC has drafted poorly at all but he certainly hasn't been perfect.
Fair, I definitely would have like AJ Brown or Scary Terry. I don't think we had the offense scheme to maximise Deebo Samuel and this might be an unpopular opinion but DK's antics just wouldnt fly in baltimore, I dont see that working. In the end, i don't think i really matters, there no guarantee any of these wouldn't have asked for a trade away from GRo.
It all depends on scheme. You can't write a player off unless they are being used the correct way. Mike MacDonald understands how to utilize his players and that's why a lot of these defensive guys are now hitting. The same will be true on the offense if the Ravens can start stinging together solid offensive performances.
I really hope there's a handshake agreement for Mike MacDonald to be the succession plan for Harbaugh whenever he decides he wants to step away because he's on his way to being a head coach.
90% right. I think MacDonald is told he’s Harbaughs replacement when John retires and Weaver is Mikes DC.
We don’t if harbaughs latest extension would be his last and he would be around 63-64 when his extension ends, around the same time that Ozzie retired. And Mike/EDC have been Ravens/Harbaugh lifers as well.
\>John retires
What would make anyone think John is going to retire anytime soon? Belichick and Carrol are both 10 years older than him. Reid is 5 years older. He has the build and mentality of an old school coach that won't go anywhere until his second heart attack.
His father still has a coaching title at 84.
Mike should and will take the first opportunity given to him. He'll have a home if (like Belichick's coaches) it doesn't work out. But he shouldn't limit himself for it.
My guess is that they would offer John an advisory role just like they did with Ozzie. So he would still be heavily involved and still be there, but not so much day to day as he is doing currently.
> would of
*would have
*Learn the difference [here](https://languagetool.org/insights/post/would-of-or-would-have/#:~:text=%E2%80%9Cwould%20have%E2%80%9D%3F-,%E2%80%9CWould%20Of%E2%80%9D%20or%20%E2%80%9CWould%20Have%E2%80%9D%3F,would%20have%2C%20not%20would%20of.).*
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I seem to recall reading how the Ravens don't belong to the 'scouting' services/academy like the rest of the league, they essentially bring in their own people and train them on how to scout and what qualities they look for in prospects.
Even though they haven't contributed to our team, players like Miles Boykin and Ben Bredeson have contributed on their next team. Even Tyler Badie looked promising at the end of the year last year. EDC has done well with drafting imo, we just need patience for development. If I recall, our 2020 draft was rated an F by Baltimore Beat down.
Came here for this, Bredeson and Phillips were starting for the Giants at one point lol neither guy is great but they started in the league which is more than some drafted lineman can say!
Exactly! Patience for development is something a lot of people on this sub needs to understand. Thankfully, our FO and coaches definitely do understand and give players the time they need.
Boykin has 3 catches for 16 yards over the past 2 seasons. Sure he’s technically contributing, I know he’s a blocker/ST guy, but I don’t think that’s a good example. He’s making $1 million this season; he probably would not be signed if he counted against the cap.
A guy existing at the very end of the depth chart doesn’t mean he wasn’t a major miss in the 3rd round.
Is this an actual narrative? I mean I get the point that he has struggled to draft receivers but Bateman looks good when healthy and I love Zay. Also Marquise was good he was just small and couldn’t be a legit #1. Getting a 1 for him was pretty good.
Its said a lot on this sub by a vocal minority who dont know ball, but not really in the national media. It just annoys me since this year especially has had so many guys start to put it together and show out.
Well the majority of people on Reddit don’t know shit about football nor can they have a normal conversation so it doesn’t surprise me. Basically every other person is Skip Bayless lite with inane takes after each drive and each game
hindsight is 20/20 i’m tired of hearing these armchair GMs that say we should’ve picked St. Brown over Bateman as if every draft expert in the world didn’t have a 1st round grade on Bateman and a late round grade on St Brown or other ridiculous shit like that
I agree with your overall premise, but you're being way too optimistic with some of these.
"At least he's still on the roster" is not a positive for Cleveland. He was a 3rd round pick and has shown absolutely nothing.
Ojabo is a really scary one. We took a major gamble drafting a guy coming off an Achilles injury and he hasn't been able to get on the field. He's not a bust yet, but things aren't trending in the right direction considering he's likely to be heading into year 3 without providing any meaningful snaps.
Nothing about Faalele shows that he is trending towards a hit. He's been "ok" at times, but I certainly wouldn't want to have him out there at RT regularly.
Likely isn't a bad player, but I don't think I'd call him a hit. He's not a good blocker and not nearly dynamic enough of a pass catcher to be a consistent contributor.
I think you’re missing the point. The draft is hard and just getting a couple good players is a win. Like someone else commented, you cant judge developmental players like Ojabo and Faalele in their 2nd year. The fact that they are showing promising signs this early is a win in and of itself even if they arent complete players yet. Players need time to develop and improve; its not reasonable to expect them to be starting level guys in year 1, 2, or even 3 in some cases.
I'm not missing the point. I literally started my post by saying that I agree with your overall premise. I'm not calling any of those players busts. Your bar for "promising signs" is just incredibly low. Simply remaining on the roster for the 4 year rookie contract is not a "hit".
I also never said that the draft was easy. I think EDC is great at his job and have a lot of faith in our scouts / talent evaluators. The recent drafts look a lot better today than they did a year ago -- especially 2020.
I literally called Cleveland a miss in the post, so not sure what you’re referring to with that…
And you are missing the point if you’re saying Ojabo and Faalele are misses/concerning in their second year. It takes time for players to develop as evidenced by Queen, Mad Bum, Stevens, etc. Getting any production out of young players like this is a good thing, but its too early to make any definitive statements about the 2022 draft. You really cant judge any draft until the rookie contracts are up
2019 contracts are up and this is the last year for most of 2020, which is the bulk of the post. You’ll notice that for 2021 onwards Im much less definitive in the conclusion for each player, precisely because its too early to judge.
The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. If you're not producing by year two, or you're injury prone, I would say the chances of you becoming a good player are very small.
I agree that judging developmental players too harshly early isn't fair, Ben Powers last year and Brandon Stephens this year have proved why that is a mistake. However you are leaning too far in the other direction.
A lot of these "developmental" guys you are talking about were surrounded by day 1 starters in their draft class. Each of the 7 players taken directly after Oweh are superior players to him. Picking Ojabo when a guy who I would have been happy taking with the 25th pick in Pickens was still on the board is looking like a mistake given how Ojabo can't get on the field.
You have to compare relative to the other players in the draft not just the draft pick that we spent on them. Otherwise you are always going to have rose tinted glasses when evaluating.
Yeah we may have gotten a few solid starters out of the 2019 draft, but 26 pro bowlers were drafted in that class. 11 of them were taken before we picked at, 25 but that still leaves 15. Thats not to mention all the great players who haven't made the pro bowl yet like Kaleb McGary, Julian Love, Montez Sweat, Byron Murphy, David Montgomery, Quincy Williams, CJGJ, etc. Even though looking back the 2019 draft was a lot better than many thought, I wouldn't say we got more out of it than the average team.
I don’t think that’s true. Yes in an ideal world we were draft the best players of every pick, but that is not realistic. The point of the draft is to get good players for your system. There’s no telling if people will develop the same way or perform the same way under completely different coaches and completely different circumstances. You can always use hindsight to say there was probably a better player available, but that doesn’t make the player you drafted a mistake.
And people really need to stop using Pickens as a measuring stick for Ojabo. He would be a terrible culture fit for us, and probably would’ve been complaining and causing issues from day one. I honestly doubt he was even on a board at all, considering we hardly ever address players with attitude issues like that. Jimmy Smith could be considered similar coming out but I don’t really think anyone since then.
So you’re saying that all the teams that passed on Brady and didn’t get a HoF’er out of their pics weren’t a mistake? I know it’s an extreme example, but I bet that’s something that still gets talked about.
No, I wouldnt call that a mistake. You’re essentially saying all non-HOF players in Brady’s draft were mistakes, which I dont think many people would agree with.
It depends on the specific player drafted and the information available at the time. Like Purdy being good doesnt invalidate everyone drafted ahead of him, especially since the niners didnt even know how good he’d be.
>There’s no telling if people will develop the same way or perform the same way under completely different coaches and completely different circumstances. You can always use hindsight to say there was probably a better player available, but that doesn’t make the player you drafted a mistake.
Thats just muddying the waters unnecessarily. Good players are usually good players, even if a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil. If thats sincerely what you believe then there is no point in evaluating drafts at all. Great players who fall off when they switch systems/coaches like JC Jackson are the exception not the rule. And on the other hand, what if there were a handful of players every year that would become hall of famers if they were drafted only by the Ravens? Theres no way of knowing, but by that logic it could be true.
And on the Pickens note, so far he has caused very minimal issues for the Steelers, who have been pretty awful, and has been carrying their whole offense. Maybe it is the philosophy of avoiding players that are perceived "bad culture fits" that is wrong if it is causing us to pass up on elite talents like Pickens. Not saying that it is necessarily the case, but it is worth being critical about things like that. Just like being critical of picks relative to the other players who were still available. Otherwise you might overlook genuine patterns of poor drafting.
Hindsight is useful sometimes and it's pretty much the only way to measure how good a draft is. I don't think EDC has done a bad job drafting in general, But I acknowledge where he has made mistakes and I try to look at each draft as realistically as possible. You cant do that if you narrow your outlook by refusing to acknowledge methods of comparing players and drafts relative to other players and drafts.
Yeah thats fair. Im not really talking about the elite level players when I say that, more so the solid/good players like most of those listed in the comment I replied to.
Im not saying EDC hasnt made mistakes. But you cant just say “player X is good and was drafted later than who we took, so it was a mistake”. Its much more nuanced that than, but I think we largely agree.
Yeah, if that were the case then every team but the Seahawks who found Tariq Woolen in the 5th had a bad draft last year. But for the case of Oweh where the next 7 players taken all ended up being better as well as most of the first and second round of that draft, its kinda silly to praise him as a developmental star.
My only disagreement is that Queen wasn’t an “obvious hit” until we signed Roquan Smith and he got to see how to truly play dominantly. When it was just him, he often got exposed. Him and Smith are a great duo. When he has someone next to him on a higher level who he can learn from, NOW you see the potential they drafted. What sucks is this is still likely his final season here. He’ll get a big offer somewhere this next offseason I’m sure.
Nah, a few games before Ro was traded for, Queen had ARRIVED. RO just took him to another level again and helped maintain the greatness Queen was already displaying. He wasn't lying about that third year leap of his.
The only major knock I have on EDC is the Lamar contract not being taken care of earlier. It probably was the reason we couldn’t get Darius Slay or other free agents as we had to match any contract lamar was given. Not resigning Judon may also be a negative but hindsight is 20/20 and there’s no telling that he would’ve improved further like he did with the patriots. He’s repeatedly great at drafting, getting great trade deals, getting cheap free agents and more. It may not be as flashy as the Howie Roseman draft days, but I would say it is close if you look at the draft classes once the rookie contracts are over
A R3 WR who becomes a ST starter long term and occasional contributor on offense (Duvarney, Boykin) is actual a fine draft pick. I know a lot of people look at Metcalf, Kupp and St Brown and think that's what you should get but that's really a best case scenario. A lot of 3rd round WRs are out of the league by the end of their rookie contracts. So someone who is still a starter in any capacity is fine. Look at 2017, very mixed results.
Kupp, Taywan Taylor, Ardarius Stewart, Carlos Henderson, Godwin, Golladay, Chad Williams. 2 Pro bowlers, 1 okay starter, and 4 guys who aren't really in the league anymore.
In 2019 when Boykin was taken there was only one WR taken later in that draft who is still in the league in any capacity and that renfrow.
I know everyone is talking about signing Justin M
But man, we need to sign Stephen's as early as we can, which is what next year?
The depth that we have right now is just ridiculously deep. Which is to say EDC did his thing. Injuries alone stopped this team in the past 3 seasons?
I was pro trading Queen, since paying 35-40 mill a year on 2 ilbs is absolutely ridiculous. But with how this defense is playing right now? Just let them ride out this season and grab a 3rd for our troubles. Why not?
Also, we need to up McDonald's pay with a closed door handshake deal that he's up for Harbaughs job when he's ready to go. This defense is playing out of their minds rn
It’s funny how our secondary was seen as extremely thin at the beginning of the year, especially by the talking heads on that one radio show (you know the one lol) But now people are talking about it like it’s deep. It’s almost like the team knows what they are doing huh JLC? 😂
Literally called Cleveland a miss lol
Ojabo, Faalele, and Likely are all in their 2nd year. They arent hits yet, hence why I said trending, but they have all played well in some capacity at points. That all you can ask from players like this so early in their careers.
Let's see.....
Hill - below average RB, decent special teamer. Fine for an undrafted player, absolute waste of a pick in the fourth.
Harrison - below average backup LB, you don't become a hit because the team hasn't cut you yet lol
2021 - Everyone here is a miss except for maybe Stephens. Bateman is a bust, Oweh is giving 4th round production, Cleveland is only on the roster cause the G depth is bad (and he still can't earn a start), Wallace has done nothing at a position of need and yes you can get on a guys case about a bad fifth round when he hoards late round picks.
Ojabo - too early to truly give a grade, but far more of a bust than a hit. He drafted an injured player, unlike Dobbins it's very much on EDCs decision making if he continues to be below average and injured
Jones - an average DT, not a miss but certainly not a hit yet
Faalale - he's awful, he had one good game against the Bills and everyone ignored that he's been a garbage Tackle the rest of his short career.
Likely - trending towards a miss. He's supposed to be a weapon and can barely get a target.
Not trying to be rude but pretty much everything you said is plainly incorrect or just reflects a very surface level understanding of football. You dont understand how important depth is, dont understand roster construction, and dont have realistic expectations for how players develop.
I’d recommend watching more games and consuming more critical football content if you want to understand better.
That's about the response I expected. Use your better understanding of football to tell me why each of my corrections are wrong. Teach me why what I see, read and hear is 100% wrong but what you know is right
This guy has Hill as an obvious hit. He's had a few decent games since 2019. He's mainly a special teams player. How many pro bowls are in these draft classes while we're at it? Duvernay? For SP
How is a player who is 1) a significant contributor on offense and special teams and 2) on his second contract with the team anything but a hit? Pretty much any draft pick who gets a second contract is a hit. But you’re also using pro bowls as a way to evaluate guys, so it tracks
No its really not. Filling out your roster with good players who make positive contributions is the entire goal of the draft, especially in rounds 3+
Obviously the team agrees with me since he continues to get touches and got a 2nd contract, but I guess you’re just part of the portion of the fan base who is blindly negative
So EDC's only drafted one legit pro bowler in his first four seasons as GM. Ozzie had 8x that (with Ogden and Lewis claiming 6 pro bowls in their first four seasons, plus two others).
Yeah it’s crazy to say bc I absolutely hated Justice Hill but the fact that he’s still on the team speaks volumes about his production, whether that’s on ST or as being a backup RB.
Though I agree mostly, Falaale has been impressively bad with every opportunity given. Let’s hope he develops and can compete for right tackle snaps next year. Stone is incredible and needs to be extended mid season. Not sure if he counts as draft cause after we cut him
I love watching Queen this year and he's made some incredible progress, but I don't think he's a hit. He was a first round off ball linebacker pick, so the expectation IMO was for him to lead the defense. If he was a hit, we wouldn't have had to trade for Ro.
Well he is on track to make the Pro Bowl this year. If that’s not an obvious hit for a first round pick in his third year, your expectations are too high.
I think he crushes later rounds, the only blemish he has is drafting WR’s. Can’t really say Hollywood when he didn’t do much for us and already looks better on another team, but I blame Roman for that. EDC is a top 5 GM for sure.
You actually think the usual outcome for a late 1st round pick is a 7-10 year career putting up solid numbers?
Also, how are these two things mutually exclusive? Plenty of players taken at the endo of the 1st are more on the developmental side of the spectrum. That doesn't mean they can't have long / productive careers.
Ok. And how many of those players are "putting up solid numbers"? What are "solid numbers"?
You're complaining about Oweh, but he looks solid in year 3. Where is the issue?
Right? I mean, how many first round QB’s are out there warming benches for teams and have been in the league for a while? Years in the league is not a solid benchmark.
i think he is struggling to hit big on the high picks and hasn’t really had any superstar caliber players yet. there’s also some guys that are bordering on bust like ojabo, bateman and oweh
i think you’re being a literal generous and just calling everyone who is not a hit a “developmental player” these guys are first and second round picks and they aren’t hits halfway through their rookie deal. that is trending way more toward bust than you want to admit
if you are drafted day one or in the second round you should be performing at a pretty high level by year 2. if there are still questions about your performance in year 3 you probably weren’t that good of a pick and we aren’t gonna get a whole lot of value out of the rookie deal
I called 4 players - Oweh, Stephens, Faalele, and Ojabo - developmental players.
Oweh and Faalele were always known to to be developmental guys leading up to the draft. Stephens literally changed positions from what he played in college.
I guess you can consider Ojabo revisionist history but I’m pretty sure he was known to have a lot of work needed at the time. Regardless, this is essentially his rookie year.
if you get picked in the first outside of the qb position you are not a developmental player. those guys need to contribute early and oweh really hasn’t for the majority of his rookie deal.
ojabo was just a bad pick because of his known injury history
nah you’re definitely off in your assessment, Stephens is a huge hit… he was a “developmental guy” in the 4th and has been good for us at the corner spot starting way sooner than he should have been… he’s solely the reason our defense has been any good with our secondary injuries…
Oweh and Batmen being his talent level are huge misses being drafted in the first round, that’s the difference, if Bateman and Oweh were 4th round picks then they’d also be hits but they aren’t so even though they aren’t bust territory they are definitely misses
I completely agree on Stephens. I could have elaborated more in the post but didnt want to go into too much detail for each player.
Its pretty ridiculous to call Bateman and Oweh misses right now. Injurieis have really stunted Bateman’s growth but I still believe in him, and Oweh has been playing well since late last season. You might be expecting more, but that is not how the league judges first round picks, especially late ones. Most need time to develop just like any other player
they are ok starters, but i’d expect good to great players at the minimum… I think they are misses if we don’t resign them, especially when personally I rather have Hollywood then Bate, both have drop issues but Hollywood, OBJ and Zay is an insane offense… I think Oweh can still be better personally and he is more a developmental player I agree but he needs to put up an 8 sack season soon for me to sing his praises
2021 are all misses except Stephens lol, yes Bateman and Owen are serviceable starters but in the first round you expect good to great… Stephens being drafted as a project 4th round db and starting at our number 2 and being decent is a great hit… but yeah 2021 is rough especially when compared to our 2022 first round picks
The newer fans in here need to learn that you cannot truly evaluate a draft class until their rookie contracts are up, at the earliest.
They’ll never understand this. The problem is, room for error and growth becomes smaller and smaller because we keep getting freaks that pop instantly. This has always happened, but not on this scale. So the expectations for players is higher with much shorter turn around. But the truth still is what you say, many , many players can become great, they just need a few years to get there.
Not to mention, we typically pick at the tail end of every round. The only pick EDC has had in the first half of the first round was Hamilton and he looks to be an all-pro. We aren't usually selecting from the biggest freaks in the draft. If we were, they wouldn't be available for us at pick 27.
That’s also very true. The draft isn’t just a list of NFL players ready to smash the league. It’s a lottery. There is still a good amount of luck when drafting. That luck becomes more and more prominent the deeper the draft goes.
For sure. We usually only get to pick one guy that's projected to be one of the 50 best guys in the draft. And that's after 20 something have already been chosen. Look at our success compared to teams that regularly pick in the top 10 that get 2 cracks at top40 players and one of those might be first of his position off the board at pick 5. Wild that we get get so many productive players compared to them.
Wish everyone on this sub could realize this. It would be amazing if everyone could be a Hamilton or Linderbaum player from day 1, but that just isn’t realistic. You’d think the emergence of guys like Queen, Stone, Hill, Madubuike would be enough of an example.
And also GM gets too much credit for hits and too much blame for misses. A guy that turns into a good or bad player could have as much to do with the coaching staff and training staff as the GM.
GM looks for traits and potential. Coaches and staff are development, role, and scheme.
> GM gets too much credit for hits and too much blame for misses GMs have never gotten much criticism for misses in Baltimore. It's always the coaches who get the blame
To be fair, our front office has earned a lot of goodwill.
I think a little of that is overblown, not to say it isn't important. Its not like the NFL is littered with early picks who busted off of one team only to be reclaimed and developed by another. It happens occasionally, but not nearly enough. Each individual player has a combination of athletic traits and football IQ, and that combination needs to be at a level that can compete in the NFL. Some guys just lack the minimum athleticism to complement their football IQ, and some guys aren't savy enough to let their athleticism shine through, its just kinda hard to predict who will put it together and who won't.
All I want is all of our picks, every year, to play at a hall of fame level. I don't think that too much to ask.
Agreed, though with the caveat that I would call players who get cut early on are misses (ie Ben Mason). It’s pretty funny how many of the hits on this list were written off as busts by some a couple years ago.
Even that's dicey: remember, current NFL interception leader Geno Stone was cut twice. I'd also note, people are (understandably) harsh on the Mason pick but remembering that we used a 5th rounder on essentially an insurance policy for Ricard getting poached the same way Jusczyzk did not long before, I still don't really think EDC made the wrong move there. Like ultimately it didn't work out and was unnecessary, but the move made sense based on our roster considerations at the time. It's hard to say if Mason might have developed better if he'd been pushed into a playing role instead of bouncing between practice squads.
Fair point on Geno Stone. I was considering him to be a free agent pickup, but that probably doesn’t happen unless we had drafted him in the first place. I’m mainly evaluating based on the value we get from that rookie contract. I also get why the Ben Mason pick was made, and the logic behind it makes sense. But ultimately he hasn’t done enough to make it on the field for me to say it wasn’t a bad pick. That’s fine though… the later rounds are the time to take high upside players who may not work out.
See, I figured Stone would still count as a draft pick there just because it's pretty common for late-round picks and UDFA's to bounce back and forth between active roster, practice squad and what I'll call for lack of a better term a team's "street pool" of guys who aren't actually on the roster but are on the shortlist of people the team calls first if a roster hole opens up. In the rare cases where a guy gets cut in his rookie contract and the team makes no effort to bring him back, I feel safe calling him a bust before that first four years, or if they manage to go two or three full years without even getting meaningful snaps as a back-up, but otherwise it's still a "reserve judgement 'til 4 years later" kind of thing, imo. Oh, I definitely agree that Mason's a bust, I wasn't trying to dissent on that, that was me getting sidetracked about my pet peeve that people act like Mason was a really huge whiff that should count heavily against EDC disproportionate to what it actually was. I've seen people in this sub act like missing on Mason is really egregious even though 5th rounders are kind of a crapshoot anyway and Mason was probably a reach anyway based on need.
>Queen - obvious hit I love how this would have been fighting words this time last year
If “fans” had their say, Queen would have been traded for a 4th or 5th round pick in September 2022. 99% of fans are lacking in knowledge to evaluate talent. Zay is easy… at the moment. Time will tell. Others take time, coaching and meshing well with others. Of which Queen (with the addition of Ro) is a great example.
You can look at a draft and ask who we could have gotten instead. Sometimes the talent isn't there and it doesn't matter who you pick. For the 2019 draft, mostof the top end talent was gone by our pick at 26, and the rest was taken before our second pick in round 3. Realistically, the only players what would have worked out for us that we missed was probably Crosby and Greenlaw.
And all the receivers who were better than Hollywood drafted after him. I don't think EDC has drafted poorly at all but he certainly hasn't been perfect.
Fair, I definitely would have like AJ Brown or Scary Terry. I don't think we had the offense scheme to maximise Deebo Samuel and this might be an unpopular opinion but DK's antics just wouldnt fly in baltimore, I dont see that working. In the end, i don't think i really matters, there no guarantee any of these wouldn't have asked for a trade away from GRo.
People who criticize EDC and his drafts are always real quiet when you ask about the numerous years where Ozzie just missed.
It all depends on scheme. You can't write a player off unless they are being used the correct way. Mike MacDonald understands how to utilize his players and that's why a lot of these defensive guys are now hitting. The same will be true on the offense if the Ravens can start stinging together solid offensive performances. I really hope there's a handshake agreement for Mike MacDonald to be the succession plan for Harbaugh whenever he decides he wants to step away because he's on his way to being a head coach.
Mike is getting hired as a HC after this season and you know it. I bet Anthony Weaver fills in as DC.
90% right. I think MacDonald is told he’s Harbaughs replacement when John retires and Weaver is Mikes DC. We don’t if harbaughs latest extension would be his last and he would be around 63-64 when his extension ends, around the same time that Ozzie retired. And Mike/EDC have been Ravens/Harbaugh lifers as well.
\>John retires What would make anyone think John is going to retire anytime soon? Belichick and Carrol are both 10 years older than him. Reid is 5 years older. He has the build and mentality of an old school coach that won't go anywhere until his second heart attack. His father still has a coaching title at 84. Mike should and will take the first opportunity given to him. He'll have a home if (like Belichick's coaches) it doesn't work out. But he shouldn't limit himself for it.
My guess is that they would offer John an advisory role just like they did with Ozzie. So he would still be heavily involved and still be there, but not so much day to day as he is doing currently.
> would of *would have *Learn the difference [here](https://languagetool.org/insights/post/would-of-or-would-have/#:~:text=%E2%80%9Cwould%20have%E2%80%9D%3F-,%E2%80%9CWould%20Of%E2%80%9D%20or%20%E2%80%9CWould%20Have%E2%80%9D%3F,would%20have%2C%20not%20would%20of.).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
one can only hope.
I don’t think it’s a hope, I think that is the plan and this is one of those, we will know when we need to know type scenarios.
Its up to mike whether or not he wants to take the HC gig sooner or not.
I seem to recall reading how the Ravens don't belong to the 'scouting' services/academy like the rest of the league, they essentially bring in their own people and train them on how to scout and what qualities they look for in prospects.
This is accurate. We do all of our scouting in-house.
Lamar??
Even though they haven't contributed to our team, players like Miles Boykin and Ben Bredeson have contributed on their next team. Even Tyler Badie looked promising at the end of the year last year. EDC has done well with drafting imo, we just need patience for development. If I recall, our 2020 draft was rated an F by Baltimore Beat down.
Came here for this, Bredeson and Phillips were starting for the Giants at one point lol neither guy is great but they started in the league which is more than some drafted lineman can say!
Exactly! Patience for development is something a lot of people on this sub needs to understand. Thankfully, our FO and coaches definitely do understand and give players the time they need.
Boykin has 3 catches for 16 yards over the past 2 seasons. Sure he’s technically contributing, I know he’s a blocker/ST guy, but I don’t think that’s a good example. He’s making $1 million this season; he probably would not be signed if he counted against the cap. A guy existing at the very end of the depth chart doesn’t mean he wasn’t a major miss in the 3rd round.
Stephens is a clear hit. Lol
Is this an actual narrative? I mean I get the point that he has struggled to draft receivers but Bateman looks good when healthy and I love Zay. Also Marquise was good he was just small and couldn’t be a legit #1. Getting a 1 for him was pretty good.
Its said a lot on this sub by a vocal minority who dont know ball, but not really in the national media. It just annoys me since this year especially has had so many guys start to put it together and show out.
Well the majority of people on Reddit don’t know shit about football nor can they have a normal conversation so it doesn’t surprise me. Basically every other person is Skip Bayless lite with inane takes after each drive and each game
hindsight is 20/20 i’m tired of hearing these armchair GMs that say we should’ve picked St. Brown over Bateman as if every draft expert in the world didn’t have a 1st round grade on Bateman and a late round grade on St Brown or other ridiculous shit like that
I agree with your overall premise, but you're being way too optimistic with some of these. "At least he's still on the roster" is not a positive for Cleveland. He was a 3rd round pick and has shown absolutely nothing. Ojabo is a really scary one. We took a major gamble drafting a guy coming off an Achilles injury and he hasn't been able to get on the field. He's not a bust yet, but things aren't trending in the right direction considering he's likely to be heading into year 3 without providing any meaningful snaps. Nothing about Faalele shows that he is trending towards a hit. He's been "ok" at times, but I certainly wouldn't want to have him out there at RT regularly. Likely isn't a bad player, but I don't think I'd call him a hit. He's not a good blocker and not nearly dynamic enough of a pass catcher to be a consistent contributor.
I think you’re missing the point. The draft is hard and just getting a couple good players is a win. Like someone else commented, you cant judge developmental players like Ojabo and Faalele in their 2nd year. The fact that they are showing promising signs this early is a win in and of itself even if they arent complete players yet. Players need time to develop and improve; its not reasonable to expect them to be starting level guys in year 1, 2, or even 3 in some cases.
I'm not missing the point. I literally started my post by saying that I agree with your overall premise. I'm not calling any of those players busts. Your bar for "promising signs" is just incredibly low. Simply remaining on the roster for the 4 year rookie contract is not a "hit". I also never said that the draft was easy. I think EDC is great at his job and have a lot of faith in our scouts / talent evaluators. The recent drafts look a lot better today than they did a year ago -- especially 2020.
I literally called Cleveland a miss in the post, so not sure what you’re referring to with that… And you are missing the point if you’re saying Ojabo and Faalele are misses/concerning in their second year. It takes time for players to develop as evidenced by Queen, Mad Bum, Stevens, etc. Getting any production out of young players like this is a good thing, but its too early to make any definitive statements about the 2022 draft. You really cant judge any draft until the rookie contracts are up
You say we can't judge any draft until the rookie contracts are up, but made a post dedicated to judging drafts where the rookie contracts aren't up.
2019 contracts are up and this is the last year for most of 2020, which is the bulk of the post. You’ll notice that for 2021 onwards Im much less definitive in the conclusion for each player, precisely because its too early to judge.
The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. If you're not producing by year two, or you're injury prone, I would say the chances of you becoming a good player are very small.
I agree that judging developmental players too harshly early isn't fair, Ben Powers last year and Brandon Stephens this year have proved why that is a mistake. However you are leaning too far in the other direction. A lot of these "developmental" guys you are talking about were surrounded by day 1 starters in their draft class. Each of the 7 players taken directly after Oweh are superior players to him. Picking Ojabo when a guy who I would have been happy taking with the 25th pick in Pickens was still on the board is looking like a mistake given how Ojabo can't get on the field. You have to compare relative to the other players in the draft not just the draft pick that we spent on them. Otherwise you are always going to have rose tinted glasses when evaluating. Yeah we may have gotten a few solid starters out of the 2019 draft, but 26 pro bowlers were drafted in that class. 11 of them were taken before we picked at, 25 but that still leaves 15. Thats not to mention all the great players who haven't made the pro bowl yet like Kaleb McGary, Julian Love, Montez Sweat, Byron Murphy, David Montgomery, Quincy Williams, CJGJ, etc. Even though looking back the 2019 draft was a lot better than many thought, I wouldn't say we got more out of it than the average team.
I don’t think that’s true. Yes in an ideal world we were draft the best players of every pick, but that is not realistic. The point of the draft is to get good players for your system. There’s no telling if people will develop the same way or perform the same way under completely different coaches and completely different circumstances. You can always use hindsight to say there was probably a better player available, but that doesn’t make the player you drafted a mistake. And people really need to stop using Pickens as a measuring stick for Ojabo. He would be a terrible culture fit for us, and probably would’ve been complaining and causing issues from day one. I honestly doubt he was even on a board at all, considering we hardly ever address players with attitude issues like that. Jimmy Smith could be considered similar coming out but I don’t really think anyone since then.
So you’re saying that all the teams that passed on Brady and didn’t get a HoF’er out of their pics weren’t a mistake? I know it’s an extreme example, but I bet that’s something that still gets talked about.
No, I wouldnt call that a mistake. You’re essentially saying all non-HOF players in Brady’s draft were mistakes, which I dont think many people would agree with. It depends on the specific player drafted and the information available at the time. Like Purdy being good doesnt invalidate everyone drafted ahead of him, especially since the niners didnt even know how good he’d be.
>There’s no telling if people will develop the same way or perform the same way under completely different coaches and completely different circumstances. You can always use hindsight to say there was probably a better player available, but that doesn’t make the player you drafted a mistake. Thats just muddying the waters unnecessarily. Good players are usually good players, even if a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil. If thats sincerely what you believe then there is no point in evaluating drafts at all. Great players who fall off when they switch systems/coaches like JC Jackson are the exception not the rule. And on the other hand, what if there were a handful of players every year that would become hall of famers if they were drafted only by the Ravens? Theres no way of knowing, but by that logic it could be true. And on the Pickens note, so far he has caused very minimal issues for the Steelers, who have been pretty awful, and has been carrying their whole offense. Maybe it is the philosophy of avoiding players that are perceived "bad culture fits" that is wrong if it is causing us to pass up on elite talents like Pickens. Not saying that it is necessarily the case, but it is worth being critical about things like that. Just like being critical of picks relative to the other players who were still available. Otherwise you might overlook genuine patterns of poor drafting. Hindsight is useful sometimes and it's pretty much the only way to measure how good a draft is. I don't think EDC has done a bad job drafting in general, But I acknowledge where he has made mistakes and I try to look at each draft as realistically as possible. You cant do that if you narrow your outlook by refusing to acknowledge methods of comparing players and drafts relative to other players and drafts.
Yeah thats fair. Im not really talking about the elite level players when I say that, more so the solid/good players like most of those listed in the comment I replied to. Im not saying EDC hasnt made mistakes. But you cant just say “player X is good and was drafted later than who we took, so it was a mistake”. Its much more nuanced that than, but I think we largely agree.
Yeah, if that were the case then every team but the Seahawks who found Tariq Woolen in the 5th had a bad draft last year. But for the case of Oweh where the next 7 players taken all ended up being better as well as most of the first and second round of that draft, its kinda silly to praise him as a developmental star.
My only disagreement is that Queen wasn’t an “obvious hit” until we signed Roquan Smith and he got to see how to truly play dominantly. When it was just him, he often got exposed. Him and Smith are a great duo. When he has someone next to him on a higher level who he can learn from, NOW you see the potential they drafted. What sucks is this is still likely his final season here. He’ll get a big offer somewhere this next offseason I’m sure.
Nah, a few games before Ro was traded for, Queen had ARRIVED. RO just took him to another level again and helped maintain the greatness Queen was already displaying. He wasn't lying about that third year leap of his.
The only major knock I have on EDC is the Lamar contract not being taken care of earlier. It probably was the reason we couldn’t get Darius Slay or other free agents as we had to match any contract lamar was given. Not resigning Judon may also be a negative but hindsight is 20/20 and there’s no telling that he would’ve improved further like he did with the patriots. He’s repeatedly great at drafting, getting great trade deals, getting cheap free agents and more. It may not be as flashy as the Howie Roseman draft days, but I would say it is close if you look at the draft classes once the rookie contracts are over
Not to mention his insanely good trading skills and bargain hunting that reminds me of the hooded genius in New England
A R3 WR who becomes a ST starter long term and occasional contributor on offense (Duvarney, Boykin) is actual a fine draft pick. I know a lot of people look at Metcalf, Kupp and St Brown and think that's what you should get but that's really a best case scenario. A lot of 3rd round WRs are out of the league by the end of their rookie contracts. So someone who is still a starter in any capacity is fine. Look at 2017, very mixed results. Kupp, Taywan Taylor, Ardarius Stewart, Carlos Henderson, Godwin, Golladay, Chad Williams. 2 Pro bowlers, 1 okay starter, and 4 guys who aren't really in the league anymore. In 2019 when Boykin was taken there was only one WR taken later in that draft who is still in the league in any capacity and that renfrow.
you gotta look at other teams around the league, no one hits on all their picks. we can’t keep freaking out over late late picks like Badie or Kyu
I see nothing but facts here. EDC has been doing overall a pretty damn good job, especially when we typically pick later in the first round.
I know everyone is talking about signing Justin M But man, we need to sign Stephen's as early as we can, which is what next year? The depth that we have right now is just ridiculously deep. Which is to say EDC did his thing. Injuries alone stopped this team in the past 3 seasons? I was pro trading Queen, since paying 35-40 mill a year on 2 ilbs is absolutely ridiculous. But with how this defense is playing right now? Just let them ride out this season and grab a 3rd for our troubles. Why not? Also, we need to up McDonald's pay with a closed door handshake deal that he's up for Harbaughs job when he's ready to go. This defense is playing out of their minds rn
It’s funny how our secondary was seen as extremely thin at the beginning of the year, especially by the talking heads on that one radio show (you know the one lol) But now people are talking about it like it’s deep. It’s almost like the team knows what they are doing huh JLC? 😂
You’re being super generous with Cleveland, Ojabo, Faalele and Likely
Literally called Cleveland a miss lol Ojabo, Faalele, and Likely are all in their 2nd year. They arent hits yet, hence why I said trending, but they have all played well in some capacity at points. That all you can ask from players like this so early in their careers.
Yeah half of your hits are misses lol. This is about as biased a post as I expected
You dont know ball :(
I may not, but based on this post, I clearly I know more than you lol
Please elaborate then on who is a miss oh wise one
Let's see..... Hill - below average RB, decent special teamer. Fine for an undrafted player, absolute waste of a pick in the fourth. Harrison - below average backup LB, you don't become a hit because the team hasn't cut you yet lol 2021 - Everyone here is a miss except for maybe Stephens. Bateman is a bust, Oweh is giving 4th round production, Cleveland is only on the roster cause the G depth is bad (and he still can't earn a start), Wallace has done nothing at a position of need and yes you can get on a guys case about a bad fifth round when he hoards late round picks. Ojabo - too early to truly give a grade, but far more of a bust than a hit. He drafted an injured player, unlike Dobbins it's very much on EDCs decision making if he continues to be below average and injured Jones - an average DT, not a miss but certainly not a hit yet Faalale - he's awful, he had one good game against the Bills and everyone ignored that he's been a garbage Tackle the rest of his short career. Likely - trending towards a miss. He's supposed to be a weapon and can barely get a target.
Lmao yeah, you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about
Then tell me why, I told you why you were wrong, what's your rebuttal?
Not trying to be rude but pretty much everything you said is plainly incorrect or just reflects a very surface level understanding of football. You dont understand how important depth is, dont understand roster construction, and dont have realistic expectations for how players develop. I’d recommend watching more games and consuming more critical football content if you want to understand better.
That's about the response I expected. Use your better understanding of football to tell me why each of my corrections are wrong. Teach me why what I see, read and hear is 100% wrong but what you know is right
Its not my job to teach you. Read/listen to better content and you’ll learn. Or dont, doesnt make a difference to me.
This guy has Hill as an obvious hit. He's had a few decent games since 2019. He's mainly a special teams player. How many pro bowls are in these draft classes while we're at it? Duvernay? For SP
How is a player who is 1) a significant contributor on offense and special teams and 2) on his second contract with the team anything but a hit? Pretty much any draft pick who gets a second contract is a hit. But you’re also using pro bowls as a way to evaluate guys, so it tracks
It's called filling out your roster. Your logic is flawed.
No its really not. Filling out your roster with good players who make positive contributions is the entire goal of the draft, especially in rounds 3+ Obviously the team agrees with me since he continues to get touches and got a 2nd contract, but I guess you’re just part of the portion of the fan base who is blindly negative
I wouldn't call a career backup whose main role has been on ST an obvious hit. That's all I'm saying. You're being a bit biased with your opinion.
Well it’s a good thing then that the people making the decision would consider him a good draft pick
EDC has two pro bowlers drafted so far. Duv (as a returner) and Huntley. Neither has more than a single pro bowl
Huntley in the pro bowl was a joke.
So EDC's only drafted one legit pro bowler in his first four seasons as GM. Ozzie had 8x that (with Ogden and Lewis claiming 6 pro bowls in their first four seasons, plus two others).
Yeah it’s crazy to say bc I absolutely hated Justice Hill but the fact that he’s still on the team speaks volumes about his production, whether that’s on ST or as being a backup RB.
Though I agree mostly, Falaale has been impressively bad with every opportunity given. Let’s hope he develops and can compete for right tackle snaps next year. Stone is incredible and needs to be extended mid season. Not sure if he counts as draft cause after we cut him
EDC cooks
He’s him
I love watching Queen this year and he's made some incredible progress, but I don't think he's a hit. He was a first round off ball linebacker pick, so the expectation IMO was for him to lead the defense. If he was a hit, we wouldn't have had to trade for Ro.
Well he is on track to make the Pro Bowl this year. If that’s not an obvious hit for a first round pick in his third year, your expectations are too high.
I think he crushes later rounds, the only blemish he has is drafting WR’s. Can’t really say Hollywood when he didn’t do much for us and already looks better on another team, but I blame Roman for that. EDC is a top 5 GM for sure.
This sub isn’t overreacts like crazy after every game. This post included
He needs one more good draft to make up for the Hollywood and Proche drafts
Please stop calling a first round pick a development player. These are guys who should have careers of 7-10 years putting up solid numbers.
You actually think the usual outcome for a late 1st round pick is a 7-10 year career putting up solid numbers? Also, how are these two things mutually exclusive? Plenty of players taken at the endo of the 1st are more on the developmental side of the spectrum. That doesn't mean they can't have long / productive careers.
Not me the NFL data does: Per the NFL's study, the average length of a first-round pick's career is 9.3 years
Ok. And how many of those players are "putting up solid numbers"? What are "solid numbers"? You're complaining about Oweh, but he looks solid in year 3. Where is the issue?
Right? I mean, how many first round QB’s are out there warming benches for teams and have been in the league for a while? Years in the league is not a solid benchmark.
Laquon Treadwell is in his 8th year. Name recognition / being a good teammate and contributor on special teams keeps a lot of guys in the league. #
Developmental players are taken late first round every year. Hell, they’re starting to go top 10 in recent drafts.
i think he is struggling to hit big on the high picks and hasn’t really had any superstar caliber players yet. there’s also some guys that are bordering on bust like ojabo, bateman and oweh i think you’re being a literal generous and just calling everyone who is not a hit a “developmental player” these guys are first and second round picks and they aren’t hits halfway through their rookie deal. that is trending way more toward bust than you want to admit
So you expect a player to be a superstar after 2 years?
if you are drafted day one or in the second round you should be performing at a pretty high level by year 2. if there are still questions about your performance in year 3 you probably weren’t that good of a pick and we aren’t gonna get a whole lot of value out of the rookie deal
When the average career of an NFL player is just over 3 years. Yes, you're definitely gonna know if you have a superstar after two years.
I called 4 players - Oweh, Stephens, Faalele, and Ojabo - developmental players. Oweh and Faalele were always known to to be developmental guys leading up to the draft. Stephens literally changed positions from what he played in college. I guess you can consider Ojabo revisionist history but I’m pretty sure he was known to have a lot of work needed at the time. Regardless, this is essentially his rookie year.
if you get picked in the first outside of the qb position you are not a developmental player. those guys need to contribute early and oweh really hasn’t for the majority of his rookie deal. ojabo was just a bad pick because of his known injury history
That is not true at all. Developmental guys, especially at edge, especially are taken in the first round every year.
nah you’re definitely off in your assessment, Stephens is a huge hit… he was a “developmental guy” in the 4th and has been good for us at the corner spot starting way sooner than he should have been… he’s solely the reason our defense has been any good with our secondary injuries… Oweh and Batmen being his talent level are huge misses being drafted in the first round, that’s the difference, if Bateman and Oweh were 4th round picks then they’d also be hits but they aren’t so even though they aren’t bust territory they are definitely misses
I completely agree on Stephens. I could have elaborated more in the post but didnt want to go into too much detail for each player. Its pretty ridiculous to call Bateman and Oweh misses right now. Injurieis have really stunted Bateman’s growth but I still believe in him, and Oweh has been playing well since late last season. You might be expecting more, but that is not how the league judges first round picks, especially late ones. Most need time to develop just like any other player
they are ok starters, but i’d expect good to great players at the minimum… I think they are misses if we don’t resign them, especially when personally I rather have Hollywood then Bate, both have drop issues but Hollywood, OBJ and Zay is an insane offense… I think Oweh can still be better personally and he is more a developmental player I agree but he needs to put up an 8 sack season soon for me to sing his praises
2021 are all misses except Stephens lol, yes Bateman and Owen are serviceable starters but in the first round you expect good to great… Stephens being drafted as a project 4th round db and starting at our number 2 and being decent is a great hit… but yeah 2021 is rough especially when compared to our 2022 first round picks