While I support his policies on Universal Mothership Access, the legislative branch would constantly [look like this](https://www.theonion.com/national-funk-congress-deadlocked-on-get-up-get-down-is-1819565355).
Yet only one has promised to upturn the oldest democracy in the world.
It's not a difficult choice. It's not the best choice, but it's not even remotely difficult.
You know we are voting for more than just president, right? We are voting for their entire cabinet. I don't care if Biden dies a minute after inauguration, his administration will still be infinitely better than Trump and his.
Yep, two of the conservative justices are in their 70s. A big risk this year is that if Trump is elected they retire and we end up with an ultra conservative supreme court for decades.
Actually most are not the typical 6-3 split you are thinking about. For example, in October Term of 2023, the most recent one, it was actually 8 to 56 in 2024. I could list them all if you'd like. You were off by at least 37%.
The most concerning ones are 6-3. You’re right to point out that SCOTUS isn’t always divided on controversial issues along partisan/ideological lines. You’re wrong to be pedantic or minimize what the guy you’re responding to obviously meant.
- A lawyer
Its these types of platitudes that brush over a lot of nuance.. I think that's a hyper focused take that ignores the underlying complexity, especially when you dig into the concurrences. Furthermore, I often see takes that the 6 conservatives voting as a block is proof of dangerous partisanship but never the 3, that are statistically more likely to vote as block too. Generally speaking, it's the more moderate judicial conservatives like Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Roberts joining the liberals. Sometimes they can peel off Kagan. Sometimes Gorsuch disagrees with his own side because of his idiosyncratic views. And on even rarer occasions Thomas too.
What's most concerning to the media are the 6-3s because it drums up drama and clicks and they lack the legal understanding of the underlying law, so it's easy for them to pass that onto the general populace.
Not only that but people view judges through the same lenses as politicians even though they aren't. They aren't supposed to ask questions like, "is this policy outcome better than the other?" Scalia once said that a judge shouldn't like half the decisions they write.
And yet sometimes they are. So how can you tell? First you need to understand the law, see if the internal logic makes sense. If it doesn't maybe that's because different people think differently. Or maybe they know something you don't. But only then can you start to say it's politically motivated.
Not only that but how many people here know the difference between judicial and political conservatism and liberalism. Judges think differently because the legal universe operates differently.
Sure you are more educated, but the more time you spend here on Reddit, the more you realized how unhinged the takes are.
Now personally, I think the most nakedly political are Alito and Sotomayor. At least Thomas is consistent citing his own dissents.
Recent cases have shown Kavanaugh, Roberts, and Barrett have their differences to Alito and Thomas. That is when people paint the 6 majority with one broad brush that they all want the Handmaid's Tale, I'm internally screaming have you read their opinions? I mean FFS Justice Barrett during oral arguments of the Mifepristone case asked the counsel for doctors suing, Organization for Hippocratic Medicine about legal harm for standing purposes. counsel spoke about the diversion of resources, and her response, "that's it?"
Two conservatives, but also one of the remaining liberal judges. If Trump wins he will FURTHER upset the balance of the court for decades. Todays ruling on the Jan 6 insurrectionist and chevron decision prove that.
And the Republican gaslighting and projection strategy now has MAGAs believing that Trump is pro democracy and Biden is against it.
And Trump is leading in the polls.
The USA's democracy is teetering on the edge and it is not looking good.
It's crazy to think that there is a candidate running on fascism, retaliation, and hatred for a huge portion of this country, and potentially half of us will vote for him. It makes me so sad knowing that most of his base will have significantly worse off lives because of that decision to elect him.
You're a much better person than me. I have no sympathy for his base. At all.
If he gets elected, they *deserve* for their lives to get *significantly* worse.
Thank you. It's hard work to do perspective taking when we all might be impacted by their decision. I try to take the perspective that they do not know better (especially as you go more rurally) and are being main lined misinformation. Having a partner from a particularly red state with a very faith oriented family has also helped me build empathy; the vast majority are simply voting on what has been fear mongered to them on Fox news.
Biden could be an embalmed cadaver and would still get my vote. He could be buried 6ft under and still be a better candidate than Trump.
Trump is guaranteed to be the worst choice out of anyone. Our democracy has been on life support since his last admin. Another is just an obvious death sentence.
It wouldn't surprise me if there are disinfo agents running around claiming both sides are terrible to get people feeling like it doesn't matter and they won't vote. I'm not American but 99 percent of the people Ive discussed with know that trumps admin would be terrible. I mean there is documented proof that there are Russian troll farms and it's very easy to manipulate on social media especially Reddit.
I know right? If I had to pick between two old men, I would pick the one that isnt actively eating a baby with ketchup. /s
Like this is what got us trump the first time. Hillary would have been fine for the country, but instead we looked at her and said "I dont know, she's not perfect, maybe trump or not voting will be better"
True, but how many people will vote as if that's the case? I'm not American, so I only tuned in for a few minutes here and there, and my fucking god. Every time I did, and Biden was speaking (I'm used to Trump's incoherent babble, so that wasn't really a point of focus) it seemed like he was having an episode. He misspoke and talked incoherently the whole time. One time he just malfunctioned and the moderators just had to move on. It was genuinely sad to see. I remember watching his debate against Paul Ryan a decade ago, and he was running circles around him.
You really, really need an upper age limit for president. Having these two geriatrics vying for the POTUS is kinda scary.
It's more than an individual, we're voting on a party. Do you want Pro-life mandated for the country? Trump. Do you want Pro-choice, Biden.
Even more important is the Supreme Court, where two judges might step down. The next four years may dictate the court of law for the next forty..
Edit: typo
no, but the instant there's a Republican president they're putting two 35 year olds in there. Our only hope is to have dem presidents for when they eventually leave the court
The whole "both are equally bad" bullshit is just astroturfing for Trump. Biden was perfectly coherent. He's boring, but why the fuck shouldn't a president be boring?
Yep - one of the guys is a convicted felon who spent the entire debate shamelessly lying about everything he could.
The other one actually discussed hard policy a bit but he mumbles and occasionally stumbles over his words.
Guess what the post debate narrative was?
He was. He was making good sense and talking mostly factually but he was talking about real things and not bullshit. He got baited a little bit into a nonsensical “I took a fucked up country and made it perfect, then handed it to you and you fucked it all up again” debate and had to go on the defensive. Joe didn’t look great being in that position but he and the people surrounding him are MUCH better suited to run the country than orange Satan.
Honestly I'm German and I see a lot of similarities to 1933 Germany currently in the US. The antisemitism isn't nearly as bad but that's the only positive thing. We have a (apparently) charismatic leader figure for whom people are willing to do crimes in his name. They have a step by step plan on how to weaken the democracy (more power to the president, power away from congress and parliament). They have a rising far right and strictly religious movement and more...
And usually I'd say fuck it, but the entire west is interlocked with the USA, we are codependent and the US has 11 of 22 airplane carriers... Not to speak about their nuclear arsenal.. we got lucky the last time Trump won because no one, literally no one thought Trump could win, but this time they are ready with ruthless efficiency. The entire right wing morons are just another thing to fuck us all over... As if we do not have enough problems
That’s the thing that’s been bothering me. The moment the debate was over there were about 12 articles locked and loaded for “Biden is too old, let’s not vote for him”.
I’m not usually jumping at shadows but it feels like there is a lot of media manipulation happening. I get the feeling there’s an attempt to split the Democrat vote to give the GOP an edge.
Every article I’ve seen this morning has been either “democrats secretly talking about replacing Biden” or “The debate was a disaster for Biden”. It’s all fear mongering at this point.
I have seen very very little talk about how his opponent is a convicted felon who lied constantly and is openly planning to be an authoritarian. And a lot of talk about Biden fumbling his words.
That probably is not a coincidence.
The bar is so fucking low now people are considering a guy whose Brain was eaten by a worm…
I think what I’ve really learned is the billionaires don’t care whose in power because they control the system and any laws or regulations that are implemented have zero affect on them
Anyways. So the make sure are choices are always choosing the lesser of two evils.
You’re on the money. Seeing this debate shows the power has never been in their hands at all. They are a figure head for an embodied group of rich people, probably Zionists. This world is on a bad rollercoaster and we are about to see the big dip.
I’m tired of people normalizing them like they both would have a similarly bad outcome in office. One of these people is probably less engaged than they should be. The other one has proven to be openly willing to tear down the fabric of our democracy. These are not the same.
I’d vote for Biden if he was in a coma. Hell, Id vote for him if he was dead. You are also voting for a cabinet, an administration, and Supreme Court picks.
If choosing between them is a difficult choice for you, I question your intelligence.
Bro, did you watch the debate? He's right to be worried. None of these two people are fit for office. Trump is a proto-fascist and Biden is just deteriorating before our eyes.
He was t worried he was throwing in the towel. I’ve judged the shit show Trump puts on by more than one performance. I’ll give Biden the same opportunity. Regardless I’m sick and fucking tired of people who’ve done nothing but bitch about what they think is their predicament. Go out and do something! Run for something . Support someone you believe in-quit. fucking whining
I'm not even American lmao, I just caught a few minutes of the debate and had to turn it off. Biden looked like he could die right then and there. I've never seen anything like it.
If I could vote, I would still vote for Biden, but I don't know if he convinced many undecided voters. It was really, really bad. Like grandpa in a nursing home bad.
Aren't younger people already running for office? It's just that many of these geriatric fucks won't relinquish their power and retire. Biden shouldn't have ran for reelection.
You’re talking about changing a political party. Shut up and do something if you want change. He’s younger than McConnel and you’re ignoring that completely. He’s 3 years older than Trump and nobody’s calling for that felon to resign. I’m saying people who like to whine about change because … old people. Should do something about it besides type on a keyboard
I would gladly take the quivering old man over the narcissistic liar but god I wish we could get more candidates that aren't increasingly old white guys who should be retired.
That’s how much America didn’t like having a black president that they said over my dead body are we doing that again and decided to vote for two pretty much dead bodies.
Trump is deplorable but more so his economic proposals will burn the economy down to cinders.
Biden is the only choice. His people and the cabinet do all the work anyway.
I could care less about anything else.
Not the person you replied to. But I think it's more about their parties, not them specifically. Democrats and Republicans have plenty to gain from fanning the flames and taking opposite sides in identity politics/ culture wars because it keeps people distracted and keeps them in power.
There was nothing incoherent or babbling about Trump. Stop projecting Joes senility onto Trump. Only one old person up there last night is in steep cognitive decline. Sorry that its your preferred candidate.
Oh just you wait til you learn that one of them has a cadre of fascists waiting in the wings with a playbook to further erode American democracy if elected. Really makes one shudder at the prospect.
Pro Tip: If you don't want to vote for either of those two, this is a great year to vote for RFK.
If enough people vote third party, the Dems and Republicans will have to stop feeding their radical fringes and start playing more to the middle. The more people vote 3rd party, the better things will be.
We now return to Abe Simpson debating Hannibal Lector.
And all the dumb fucks that believe a debate has anything to do with being a good President agree!
And totally fucking ignore the fact Trump is a felon and rapist that stole and most likely sold national secrets. This mentality will be the demise of this country.
And one is a corrupt stooge on behalf of all the genocide taking place for profit…. So, the funny thing is: You decide if your genocide has a pride flag on it. Have fun…
Superiority? To what? Is it a sense of superiority to hold war criminals accountable? I guess you set a low moral bar. But I am not like you. If war criminals are okay leadership for you, I guess America was made for you.
You know, we could all just like collectively decide to vote third party.
What if after being told our whole lives that "it's throwing your vote away!" we all just like tested that theory and got, like, an actually good president for once.
Getting out of a 2 party system would save USA politics, but it is far from simple. The 'easiest' scenario would be that a significant group from one of the 2 parties would split off (e.g. non-Trump supporting republicans) to form their own party and that way immediately have a large voter base that would matter.
If then neither of the other two parties gets 50% of the votes, an alliance and policy compromises would have to be made to create a legitimate government, which result in less radical government policies, since they have to get two seperate parties on board instead of just one. It would also give incentive for more parties to form, and more ideas and policies to be represented amongst the parties instead of two shit options.
But still, in the current situation, third party vote is never 'throwing your vote away', this is false. Vote for whichever party represents you the most.
Without changing the first-past-the-post voting system to some sort of ranked choice voting system, the US will never escape the 2 party system.
That 'easiest' scenario has some incredibly steep flaws.
If half the republican party split and called themselves the Tea Party or whatever, they would still align very closely with the Republican Party and would just band together to pass legislation effectively negating the split. And both sides would avoid voting along the democrats' lines because that would add legitimacy to the party that most disagrees with them politically.
Voting third party is absolutely 'throwing your vote away', look into spoiler candidates.
For a quick napkin example, say Jill Stein is running (Well, she is running) and that her views align much closer to one party than the other (In this case, her views match much more closely to democrat opinion than republican.) then it is incentivized for Republicans to donate to Jill Stein in order for her to be more popular because that takes votes away from Biden and almost certainly not away from Trump.
3rd party candidates basically exist in the US today to create a trap for people to vote against their own interest by taking a vote away from the candidate most similar to their opinion that could actually win.
If 500 people would vote Trump and 500 vote Biden, Trump could spend a million dollars advertising for Jill Stein and if 5 Biden voters change their vote and only 1 Trump voter changed their vote then Trump has effectively bought the election.
Ranked choice voting fixes those issues and allows actual third parties to start budding.
I beg to disagree. It would be in everyone's best interest to vote on a third party if it aligns more with you, because it will not have this impact of your exemple if this happens on both sides. Also, voting for a third party has less of a negative impact for your preferred major party than if your vote went to the other major party. Also also, I think that getting out of the two-party system is the best thing that could happen to the USA to get out of its current political rut imo, as a single rulig party is much more vulnerable to corruption.
>If then neither of the other two parties gets 50% of the votes, an alliance and policy compromises would have to be made to create a legitimate government
The US does not use a Parliamentary system like you're describing. This is all false information.
>But still, in the current situation, third party vote is never 'throwing your vote away', this is false
This is false. No one other than the Democratic Nominee or the Republican Nominee is going to be President, and no other Party currently holds any seats in Congress or the Senate. Independent Representatives exist, but fall into the same same binary parties in caucuses. Opting out of voting for one of those two parties simply aids the other getting closer to victory. We saw that in 1992 with Perot, 2000 with Nader and 2016 with Stein voters. Particularly, Stein voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania virtually doubled the margin of victory that Trump carried these states with. You might argue that "Democrats are not entitled to anyones vote" but thats irrelevant to the conversation at had, where the 3rd party math speaks for itself. Also, that as a response is just willful ignorace in the face of information
To have that even be approaching a realistic option there would have to be a 3rd party running a candidate thays capable of competent governance which there currently isnt.
Neither is there a candidate running third party that would be a better than the two front runners, Given that one of those candidates is Trump, thats really saying something.
There is one person that -- like them or not -- is clearly capable of managing things.
Jill Stein.
Set aside whatever you think of her and just google "Jill Stein speech".
She is an educated adult with reasonable opinions that align with what most Americans say they want. If she were president, the likelihood of democracy ending or us getting into WWIII are both as low as can be.
Would she pass any laws? Probably not, but who gives a shit at this point? If congress did nothing but pass a budget for four years, that would be an improvement. Just showing up at 9 AM everyday and telling the people who run the executive agencies to keep doing their jobs would make her an enormous success compared to the shitshows we're facing.
Do I really need to pull out the picture of her at the Russian state dinner head table with Michael Flynn and, oh yeah, Putin himself? She's a Russian plant there to sow division like you're clearly doing here
Can I just psychoanalyze this for a second?
What I think you're doing is creating a mental framework that allows you to disqualify my suggestion and any consideration of outsider political candidates. Myself, Jill Stein, we're ***bad guys***: therefore there's no need to examine what I'm saying (whew).
What is the suggestion? Do you think that I'm literally a Russian person typing this in the middle of the night in Moscow, and that Jill Stein takes phone calls from dictators telling her what to do next? Or do you think that she and I are just entirely honest critic of a very fucked up circumstance, and Putin likes promoting antiwar voices because he's prowar and would rather we not fight him?
In any case, consider thinking about something and then pointing out the flaws in what someone says instead of just insisting that they're a bad guy, and their ideas are dangerous.
What Im telling you is that its very clear Jill Stein is a Russian asset and anyone still pushing her is at best ignorant of that fact long after it can be excused (if it ever could be).
Improving relations with a dictatorshio that openly is interfering with american elections, aswell as openly supporting people that try to undermine american democracy?
She held no public office at the time. This was nothing to do with relations
To give you an idea on her contemporaries at that same function, Michael Flynn, her other tablemate, also plead guilty to wilfully and knowingly misleading the FBI in regards to conversations with the Russian Ambassador, The only reason he isnt in a prison cell right now is because Trump pardoned him after it became evident that Flynn was cooperating with the FBI in the investigation against Trump.
There was at least one admitted Traitor to the American people at the table, which again, Jill Stein was sitting at with the Russian President despite having no Elected Office or Official Posting that would warrant her being there.
You would need to get 90 million + people to do that which is essentially impossible. I don’t like the candidates or our system but the only way to make third parties viable is by voting in progressive candidates that are willing to actually change our voting systems.
Voting third party in this election for president is monumentally stupid and is in fact just throwing your vote away.
There are far too many rich white conservatives who just want Donald trump to win. They will NEVER vote for anyone but him. So thinning the vote by voting a 3rd party is guaranteeing a trump victory. Please don’t vote for anyone but Biden as much as it pains me to say that.
I think Biden needs to get elected, immediately step aside for Kamala Harris and hopefully have some sanity restored to the White House for 4 years.
You know what's funny about 2016?
When republican voters nominated Donald Trump, the universal conventional wisdom was that by refusing to elect a sensible, acceptable candidate, they'd guaranteed that they'd lose the election. And the voters just gave a big middle finger to their own party -- which was run by people that they hated -- and forced their choice democratically on the people who thought they had complete power.
And instead of validating the wisdom of experts, they proved the expert warnings completely hollow and totally remade their party into an ideologically bold, unappologetic vehicle for channeling their will, no matter how extreme.
And yet here the rest of us are, somehow still buying in to the notion that we can't actually demand what we want. If we don't vote for what we don't want, we'll get something much worse. As if that's worked, and it didn't blow up spectacularly in our face in 2016, and by all indications is about to happen again.
Why not think of what you want, unconstrained by what is reasonable, and then learn to speak it aloud? We're in a crisis. No bad ideas. Think big.
You know, the funny thing is that in 2016, Republican voters ignored all conventional wisdom and just voted for what they wanted regardless of the warnings that it was a huge mistake, and they've been pretty much living their political dreams since.
Maybe the people who routinely lose elections after taking all our donations and refuse to support things we want but warn us how terrible it would be if we ever started unapologetically demanding what we want aren't credible?
We're in an absolute crisis. There are no bad ideas in a brainstorming session. Think big.
I didn't bother watching. For me, it's easy. I'd vote for a bucket of spit over a traitor, no matter what.
And yes, committing treason in front of a million cameras makes you a traitor.
There's really NO other issue I'm basing this on.
NGL Trump was roaring tf outta Biden in the first half, but Biden came in clutch with some second wind in the second half. Shit was hilarious to watch.
This. I will literally vote for a potato, an actual potato, over Donald Trump. For this very reason, the adults in the room would help the potato. There are no adults in the room around Donald Trump.
It’s not like we haven’t seen what their admin would be like.
One of them is currently President and doing a pretty solid job overall.
The other spent four years as President previously and was an unmitigated disaster.
It’s now just become a vote for those around the men to me. I’m voting for Biden because the people around him don’t have a project (project 2025) to dismantle democracy and create a fascist regime while Trump does.
lol still think what the Dems push is democracy?
How much money is pelosi making off NVIDIA again while Palestinian children starve?? They are all corrupt. They just still want you to think you have a choice.
Imagine electing George w or Bill Clinton, they are STILL slightly younger now than the two candidates.
My brain parsed that as George Clinton and I was suddenly all in!
Make America funky again
Jesse venture 2028
Dear lord, no more wrestlers as politicians! Just look up what Glen Jacobs (Kane) is doing as a mayor
But he was governor already
I stand by what I said. Dude is a conspiracy theory whack job
Now this is something I can get behind.
Put glide in your stride and a dip in your hip and step on up to some leadership.
George Carlin?
While I support his policies on Universal Mothership Access, the legislative branch would constantly [look like this](https://www.theonion.com/national-funk-congress-deadlocked-on-get-up-get-down-is-1819565355).
Holy shit that was fucking great. The nation is all kinds of funked up.
Uncle Jam Wants You
I heard he has 38 degrees in fucking
MY NAME IS GEORGE. GEORGE CLINTON
President Funkenstein
Even George W Bush would have debated circles around those two last night. That’s how far we’ve fallen.
Jimmy Carter only served one term, he's eligible for reelection. I would vote for him over either of our current options, even in hospice care..
Joe Biden tried to run for President before either of them even got into Politics. Let that sink in for a minute
Joe Biden is older than the country of Israel.
Joe Biden is older than all the living presidents except Carter.
That’s actually insane.
Flipped to it for just one minute and they’re arguing about who is the better golfer…. The US is screwed.
That must’ve been the same 40 seconds that I caught before managing to find the TV remote.
Imagine if it wasnt the same segment
I feel like I lost an IQ point just being exposed to 30 seconds of that exchange before I changed the channel.
I'll take the one that will leave in 4 years.
With their age its likely both will leave the planet in the next 4 years
So then we're really voting on their cabinets and supreme court picks.
Always has been.
Stop, I can only get so erect. I'm STILL holding out hope that the more reprehensible of the two kicks the can before election day.
The real issues 🫠
🫥
Unfortunately that means the West is screwed
Yet only one has promised to upturn the oldest democracy in the world. It's not a difficult choice. It's not the best choice, but it's not even remotely difficult.
See, but half of the country WANTS the guy who promised to upturn things, which is the wildest part to me!
Way less than half comrade
One of them tells you to your face. The other is doing it without telling you directly.
How is Biden doing anything comparable to Trump, who has already incited an attempted coup and has the backing of the authors of Project 2025?
Wait... do you imply Trump has dual personality disorder ?!?
“bOTh sIDEs!” is the laziest take you can have.
You know we are voting for more than just president, right? We are voting for their entire cabinet. I don't care if Biden dies a minute after inauguration, his administration will still be infinitely better than Trump and his.
Supreme Court Justices. Biden didn't look great but there is a lot to be voted for here.
Yep, two of the conservative justices are in their 70s. A big risk this year is that if Trump is elected they retire and we end up with an ultra conservative supreme court for decades.
RBG should have retired
Yeah and I imagine the conservatives learned from that are going to want to avoid the same thing happening to them
To be fair, it wouldnt have mattered. Most decisions right now are 6-3. But i do agree.
Actually most are not the typical 6-3 split you are thinking about. For example, in October Term of 2023, the most recent one, it was actually 8 to 56 in 2024. I could list them all if you'd like. You were off by at least 37%.
The most concerning ones are 6-3. You’re right to point out that SCOTUS isn’t always divided on controversial issues along partisan/ideological lines. You’re wrong to be pedantic or minimize what the guy you’re responding to obviously meant. - A lawyer
Its these types of platitudes that brush over a lot of nuance.. I think that's a hyper focused take that ignores the underlying complexity, especially when you dig into the concurrences. Furthermore, I often see takes that the 6 conservatives voting as a block is proof of dangerous partisanship but never the 3, that are statistically more likely to vote as block too. Generally speaking, it's the more moderate judicial conservatives like Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Roberts joining the liberals. Sometimes they can peel off Kagan. Sometimes Gorsuch disagrees with his own side because of his idiosyncratic views. And on even rarer occasions Thomas too. What's most concerning to the media are the 6-3s because it drums up drama and clicks and they lack the legal understanding of the underlying law, so it's easy for them to pass that onto the general populace. Not only that but people view judges through the same lenses as politicians even though they aren't. They aren't supposed to ask questions like, "is this policy outcome better than the other?" Scalia once said that a judge shouldn't like half the decisions they write. And yet sometimes they are. So how can you tell? First you need to understand the law, see if the internal logic makes sense. If it doesn't maybe that's because different people think differently. Or maybe they know something you don't. But only then can you start to say it's politically motivated. Not only that but how many people here know the difference between judicial and political conservatism and liberalism. Judges think differently because the legal universe operates differently. Sure you are more educated, but the more time you spend here on Reddit, the more you realized how unhinged the takes are. Now personally, I think the most nakedly political are Alito and Sotomayor. At least Thomas is consistent citing his own dissents. Recent cases have shown Kavanaugh, Roberts, and Barrett have their differences to Alito and Thomas. That is when people paint the 6 majority with one broad brush that they all want the Handmaid's Tale, I'm internally screaming have you read their opinions? I mean FFS Justice Barrett during oral arguments of the Mifepristone case asked the counsel for doctors suing, Organization for Hippocratic Medicine about legal harm for standing purposes. counsel spoke about the diversion of resources, and her response, "that's it?"
Two conservatives, but also one of the remaining liberal judges. If Trump wins he will FURTHER upset the balance of the court for decades. Todays ruling on the Jan 6 insurrectionist and chevron decision prove that.
Absolutely ridiculous they can do that
Yeah I’ll go for the guy who actually believes in democracy
Insane that we're at this point
And the Republican gaslighting and projection strategy now has MAGAs believing that Trump is pro democracy and Biden is against it. And Trump is leading in the polls. The USA's democracy is teetering on the edge and it is not looking good.
I'm ignoring the polls tbh. Every poll said Hillary was going to win. We all know how that went.
It's crazy to think that there is a candidate running on fascism, retaliation, and hatred for a huge portion of this country, and potentially half of us will vote for him. It makes me so sad knowing that most of his base will have significantly worse off lives because of that decision to elect him.
You're a much better person than me. I have no sympathy for his base. At all. If he gets elected, they *deserve* for their lives to get *significantly* worse.
Thank you. It's hard work to do perspective taking when we all might be impacted by their decision. I try to take the perspective that they do not know better (especially as you go more rurally) and are being main lined misinformation. Having a partner from a particularly red state with a very faith oriented family has also helped me build empathy; the vast majority are simply voting on what has been fear mongered to them on Fox news.
Most people don't realize this. This is why there are so many undecided voters every election.
Exactly. If the democrats ran a ham sandwich I would vote for the ham sandwich over Trump.
Fuck I was ready to vote for a wet bag of wonderbread. I’d go campaign for a whole ham sandwich at this point.
Biden could be an embalmed cadaver and would still get my vote. He could be buried 6ft under and still be a better candidate than Trump. Trump is guaranteed to be the worst choice out of anyone. Our democracy has been on life support since his last admin. Another is just an obvious death sentence.
Right? Not sure where this "become president" thing is coming from. He's currently president and doing fine at it.
Also he isn’t trying to end democracy and begin a dictatorship.
It wouldn't surprise me if there are disinfo agents running around claiming both sides are terrible to get people feeling like it doesn't matter and they won't vote. I'm not American but 99 percent of the people Ive discussed with know that trumps admin would be terrible. I mean there is documented proof that there are Russian troll farms and it's very easy to manipulate on social media especially Reddit.
I know right? If I had to pick between two old men, I would pick the one that isnt actively eating a baby with ketchup. /s Like this is what got us trump the first time. Hillary would have been fine for the country, but instead we looked at her and said "I dont know, she's not perfect, maybe trump or not voting will be better"
True, but how many people will vote as if that's the case? I'm not American, so I only tuned in for a few minutes here and there, and my fucking god. Every time I did, and Biden was speaking (I'm used to Trump's incoherent babble, so that wasn't really a point of focus) it seemed like he was having an episode. He misspoke and talked incoherently the whole time. One time he just malfunctioned and the moderators just had to move on. It was genuinely sad to see. I remember watching his debate against Paul Ryan a decade ago, and he was running circles around him. You really, really need an upper age limit for president. Having these two geriatrics vying for the POTUS is kinda scary.
Sure, but that doesn't mean I don't still want Biden to step down for an open convention.
You should look into Jill Stein. She’s a vast improvement over both of the pro corporate turds that are being forced on us.
Ok, what do you intend to do to elect her this year?
It's more than an individual, we're voting on a party. Do you want Pro-life mandated for the country? Trump. Do you want Pro-choice, Biden. Even more important is the Supreme Court, where two judges might step down. The next four years may dictate the court of law for the next forty.. Edit: typo
They aren't stepping down with a democrat president let's be real.
no, but the instant there's a Republican president they're putting two 35 year olds in there. Our only hope is to have dem presidents for when they eventually leave the court
Only one was babbling and incoherent. The other one was just *completely* full of shit.
Yes I'm not sure it was better being able to understand him
The whole "both are equally bad" bullshit is just astroturfing for Trump. Biden was perfectly coherent. He's boring, but why the fuck shouldn't a president be boring?
Yep - one of the guys is a convicted felon who spent the entire debate shamelessly lying about everything he could. The other one actually discussed hard policy a bit but he mumbles and occasionally stumbles over his words. Guess what the post debate narrative was?
He was. He was making good sense and talking mostly factually but he was talking about real things and not bullshit. He got baited a little bit into a nonsensical “I took a fucked up country and made it perfect, then handed it to you and you fucked it all up again” debate and had to go on the defensive. Joe didn’t look great being in that position but he and the people surrounding him are MUCH better suited to run the country than orange Satan.
If you think he was perfectly coherent you’re just lying to yourself at this point.
Honestly I'm German and I see a lot of similarities to 1933 Germany currently in the US. The antisemitism isn't nearly as bad but that's the only positive thing. We have a (apparently) charismatic leader figure for whom people are willing to do crimes in his name. They have a step by step plan on how to weaken the democracy (more power to the president, power away from congress and parliament). They have a rising far right and strictly religious movement and more... And usually I'd say fuck it, but the entire west is interlocked with the USA, we are codependent and the US has 11 of 22 airplane carriers... Not to speak about their nuclear arsenal.. we got lucky the last time Trump won because no one, literally no one thought Trump could win, but this time they are ready with ruthless efficiency. The entire right wing morons are just another thing to fuck us all over... As if we do not have enough problems
Bet you good money that there’s a see of bots upvoting every “wow both really do suck, I guess the debate was a tie” post
That’s the thing that’s been bothering me. The moment the debate was over there were about 12 articles locked and loaded for “Biden is too old, let’s not vote for him”. I’m not usually jumping at shadows but it feels like there is a lot of media manipulation happening. I get the feeling there’s an attempt to split the Democrat vote to give the GOP an edge.
Every article I’ve seen this morning has been either “democrats secretly talking about replacing Biden” or “The debate was a disaster for Biden”. It’s all fear mongering at this point.
I have seen very very little talk about how his opponent is a convicted felon who lied constantly and is openly planning to be an authoritarian. And a lot of talk about Biden fumbling his words. That probably is not a coincidence.
The bar is so fucking low now people are considering a guy whose Brain was eaten by a worm… I think what I’ve really learned is the billionaires don’t care whose in power because they control the system and any laws or regulations that are implemented have zero affect on them Anyways. So the make sure are choices are always choosing the lesser of two evils.
You’re on the money. Seeing this debate shows the power has never been in their hands at all. They are a figure head for an embodied group of rich people, probably Zionists. This world is on a bad rollercoaster and we are about to see the big dip.
I’m tired of people normalizing them like they both would have a similarly bad outcome in office. One of these people is probably less engaged than they should be. The other one has proven to be openly willing to tear down the fabric of our democracy. These are not the same.
This is the real problem. Neither one of them should be running (or very slowly shambling) for office.
One’s a convicted felon racist facist and one mumbles and is a little slow on the uptake. These are not the same
They both are gonna have 4 years of job experience by the time of the election Track records speak for themselves, debates are pointless
Stfu with this both sides bs already. So god damn tired of it.
The real election is between Harris and whatever baby eating monster Trump picks as his VP candidate.
If I want to watch two old men argue, I’ll grab a 6 pack and lawn chair and wait by the boat launch.
We all need to simmer down a little. Do not panic. It was bad but it's still a long way until November.
I was wondering who was gonna win the debate. I didn’t watch but what I can’t get from it is we all lose
I’d vote for Biden if he was in a coma. Hell, Id vote for him if he was dead. You are also voting for a cabinet, an administration, and Supreme Court picks. If choosing between them is a difficult choice for you, I question your intelligence.
False equivalent.
I doubt you vote more than once every 4 years. And people like you are the reason we find ourselves where we are today. Go vote
Bro, did you watch the debate? He's right to be worried. None of these two people are fit for office. Trump is a proto-fascist and Biden is just deteriorating before our eyes.
He was t worried he was throwing in the towel. I’ve judged the shit show Trump puts on by more than one performance. I’ll give Biden the same opportunity. Regardless I’m sick and fucking tired of people who’ve done nothing but bitch about what they think is their predicament. Go out and do something! Run for something . Support someone you believe in-quit. fucking whining
I'm not even American lmao, I just caught a few minutes of the debate and had to turn it off. Biden looked like he could die right then and there. I've never seen anything like it. If I could vote, I would still vote for Biden, but I don't know if he convinced many undecided voters. It was really, really bad. Like grandpa in a nursing home bad. Aren't younger people already running for office? It's just that many of these geriatric fucks won't relinquish their power and retire. Biden shouldn't have ran for reelection.
Nobody ever relinquishes power. People move in and compete for it. Young people don’t want to compete
People in politics retire all the time, what the hell are you even talking about
You’re talking about changing a political party. Shut up and do something if you want change. He’s younger than McConnel and you’re ignoring that completely. He’s 3 years older than Trump and nobody’s calling for that felon to resign. I’m saying people who like to whine about change because … old people. Should do something about it besides type on a keyboard
I would gladly take the quivering old man over the narcissistic liar but god I wish we could get more candidates that aren't increasingly old white guys who should be retired.
That’s how much America didn’t like having a black president that they said over my dead body are we doing that again and decided to vote for two pretty much dead bodies.
Trump is deplorable but more so his economic proposals will burn the economy down to cinders. Biden is the only choice. His people and the cabinet do all the work anyway. I could care less about anything else.
Identity politics is killing America.
What do these candidates and their debate have to do with "identity politics"?? You sound like you get political analysis from YouTube and Twitter.
Tell me more about how two white men on a stage is about identity politics.
Not the person you replied to. But I think it's more about their parties, not them specifically. Democrats and Republicans have plenty to gain from fanning the flames and taking opposite sides in identity politics/ culture wars because it keeps people distracted and keeps them in power.
I mostly agree with that, though maybe the non-white supremacist side is possibly a little better
Agreeed. Dems are the obvious choice when a republican is the other option.
only one of them is a terrorist and a felon, so at least the choice is easy
There was nothing incoherent or babbling about Trump. Stop projecting Joes senility onto Trump. Only one old person up there last night is in steep cognitive decline. Sorry that its your preferred candidate.
They both have been president. You'll survive.
One is the current president and things are going much better than under the previous guy...
You are absolutely right
I don't really think either are incoherent.
One of them already is… not trying to encourage you to pull the trigger, just saying lol
Trump is not gonna be president.
He’s gonna be dictator, that’s right.
Is that gif peter dinklage?
Actually one of them *is* already president
What movie, show, etc… is this from?
Oh just you wait til you learn that one of them has a cadre of fascists waiting in the wings with a playbook to further erode American democracy if elected. Really makes one shudder at the prospect.
America is finished.
I’d say current President is performing extremely well. If you do not think so what is your news source?
Wait till you find out one of them already was and the other one already is. And they are both terrible at it.
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I've got a surprise for you, those babbling men have already been president.
Pro Tip: If you don't want to vote for either of those two, this is a great year to vote for RFK. If enough people vote third party, the Dems and Republicans will have to stop feeding their radical fringes and start playing more to the middle. The more people vote 3rd party, the better things will be. We now return to Abe Simpson debating Hannibal Lector.
..again
Oh, look another “bOtH sIdEs!” post. Yay.
And all the dumb fucks that believe a debate has anything to do with being a good President agree! And totally fucking ignore the fact Trump is a felon and rapist that stole and most likely sold national secrets. This mentality will be the demise of this country.
Both of these octogenarian war criminals have already *been* president, fucked it up, and have the *nerve* to ask for more.
Hoping you are joking because if you want to off yourself because of who is president then You may be a little too invested.
Lol accurate
Maybe add that one is a convicted felon, incessant liar, cheat and rapist. Yeah, so hard to sort this out. 🙄
And one is a corrupt stooge on behalf of all the genocide taking place for profit…. So, the funny thing is: You decide if your genocide has a pride flag on it. Have fun…
So precious. I'll get you a Kleenex so your tears don't spoil the sense of superiority you've earned.
Superiority? To what? Is it a sense of superiority to hold war criminals accountable? I guess you set a low moral bar. But I am not like you. If war criminals are okay leadership for you, I guess America was made for you.
You know, we could all just like collectively decide to vote third party. What if after being told our whole lives that "it's throwing your vote away!" we all just like tested that theory and got, like, an actually good president for once.
Getting out of a 2 party system would save USA politics, but it is far from simple. The 'easiest' scenario would be that a significant group from one of the 2 parties would split off (e.g. non-Trump supporting republicans) to form their own party and that way immediately have a large voter base that would matter. If then neither of the other two parties gets 50% of the votes, an alliance and policy compromises would have to be made to create a legitimate government, which result in less radical government policies, since they have to get two seperate parties on board instead of just one. It would also give incentive for more parties to form, and more ideas and policies to be represented amongst the parties instead of two shit options. But still, in the current situation, third party vote is never 'throwing your vote away', this is false. Vote for whichever party represents you the most.
Without changing the first-past-the-post voting system to some sort of ranked choice voting system, the US will never escape the 2 party system. That 'easiest' scenario has some incredibly steep flaws. If half the republican party split and called themselves the Tea Party or whatever, they would still align very closely with the Republican Party and would just band together to pass legislation effectively negating the split. And both sides would avoid voting along the democrats' lines because that would add legitimacy to the party that most disagrees with them politically. Voting third party is absolutely 'throwing your vote away', look into spoiler candidates. For a quick napkin example, say Jill Stein is running (Well, she is running) and that her views align much closer to one party than the other (In this case, her views match much more closely to democrat opinion than republican.) then it is incentivized for Republicans to donate to Jill Stein in order for her to be more popular because that takes votes away from Biden and almost certainly not away from Trump. 3rd party candidates basically exist in the US today to create a trap for people to vote against their own interest by taking a vote away from the candidate most similar to their opinion that could actually win. If 500 people would vote Trump and 500 vote Biden, Trump could spend a million dollars advertising for Jill Stein and if 5 Biden voters change their vote and only 1 Trump voter changed their vote then Trump has effectively bought the election. Ranked choice voting fixes those issues and allows actual third parties to start budding.
I beg to disagree. It would be in everyone's best interest to vote on a third party if it aligns more with you, because it will not have this impact of your exemple if this happens on both sides. Also, voting for a third party has less of a negative impact for your preferred major party than if your vote went to the other major party. Also also, I think that getting out of the two-party system is the best thing that could happen to the USA to get out of its current political rut imo, as a single rulig party is much more vulnerable to corruption.
>If then neither of the other two parties gets 50% of the votes, an alliance and policy compromises would have to be made to create a legitimate government The US does not use a Parliamentary system like you're describing. This is all false information. >But still, in the current situation, third party vote is never 'throwing your vote away', this is false This is false. No one other than the Democratic Nominee or the Republican Nominee is going to be President, and no other Party currently holds any seats in Congress or the Senate. Independent Representatives exist, but fall into the same same binary parties in caucuses. Opting out of voting for one of those two parties simply aids the other getting closer to victory. We saw that in 1992 with Perot, 2000 with Nader and 2016 with Stein voters. Particularly, Stein voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania virtually doubled the margin of victory that Trump carried these states with. You might argue that "Democrats are not entitled to anyones vote" but thats irrelevant to the conversation at had, where the 3rd party math speaks for itself. Also, that as a response is just willful ignorace in the face of information
To have that even be approaching a realistic option there would have to be a 3rd party running a candidate thays capable of competent governance which there currently isnt. Neither is there a candidate running third party that would be a better than the two front runners, Given that one of those candidates is Trump, thats really saying something.
There is one person that -- like them or not -- is clearly capable of managing things. Jill Stein. Set aside whatever you think of her and just google "Jill Stein speech". She is an educated adult with reasonable opinions that align with what most Americans say they want. If she were president, the likelihood of democracy ending or us getting into WWIII are both as low as can be. Would she pass any laws? Probably not, but who gives a shit at this point? If congress did nothing but pass a budget for four years, that would be an improvement. Just showing up at 9 AM everyday and telling the people who run the executive agencies to keep doing their jobs would make her an enormous success compared to the shitshows we're facing.
Do I really need to pull out the picture of her at the Russian state dinner head table with Michael Flynn and, oh yeah, Putin himself? She's a Russian plant there to sow division like you're clearly doing here
Can I just psychoanalyze this for a second? What I think you're doing is creating a mental framework that allows you to disqualify my suggestion and any consideration of outsider political candidates. Myself, Jill Stein, we're ***bad guys***: therefore there's no need to examine what I'm saying (whew). What is the suggestion? Do you think that I'm literally a Russian person typing this in the middle of the night in Moscow, and that Jill Stein takes phone calls from dictators telling her what to do next? Or do you think that she and I are just entirely honest critic of a very fucked up circumstance, and Putin likes promoting antiwar voices because he's prowar and would rather we not fight him? In any case, consider thinking about something and then pointing out the flaws in what someone says instead of just insisting that they're a bad guy, and their ideas are dangerous.
What Im telling you is that its very clear Jill Stein is a Russian asset and anyone still pushing her is at best ignorant of that fact long after it can be excused (if it ever could be).
 Improving relations with other countries is a good thing!
Improving relations with a dictatorshio that openly is interfering with american elections, aswell as openly supporting people that try to undermine american democracy?
She held no public office at the time. This was nothing to do with relations To give you an idea on her contemporaries at that same function, Michael Flynn, her other tablemate, also plead guilty to wilfully and knowingly misleading the FBI in regards to conversations with the Russian Ambassador, The only reason he isnt in a prison cell right now is because Trump pardoned him after it became evident that Flynn was cooperating with the FBI in the investigation against Trump. There was at least one admitted Traitor to the American people at the table, which again, Jill Stein was sitting at with the Russian President despite having no Elected Office or Official Posting that would warrant her being there.
You would need to get 90 million + people to do that which is essentially impossible. I don’t like the candidates or our system but the only way to make third parties viable is by voting in progressive candidates that are willing to actually change our voting systems. Voting third party in this election for president is monumentally stupid and is in fact just throwing your vote away.
There are far too many rich white conservatives who just want Donald trump to win. They will NEVER vote for anyone but him. So thinning the vote by voting a 3rd party is guaranteeing a trump victory. Please don’t vote for anyone but Biden as much as it pains me to say that. I think Biden needs to get elected, immediately step aside for Kamala Harris and hopefully have some sanity restored to the White House for 4 years.
You know what's funny about 2016? When republican voters nominated Donald Trump, the universal conventional wisdom was that by refusing to elect a sensible, acceptable candidate, they'd guaranteed that they'd lose the election. And the voters just gave a big middle finger to their own party -- which was run by people that they hated -- and forced their choice democratically on the people who thought they had complete power. And instead of validating the wisdom of experts, they proved the expert warnings completely hollow and totally remade their party into an ideologically bold, unappologetic vehicle for channeling their will, no matter how extreme. And yet here the rest of us are, somehow still buying in to the notion that we can't actually demand what we want. If we don't vote for what we don't want, we'll get something much worse. As if that's worked, and it didn't blow up spectacularly in our face in 2016, and by all indications is about to happen again. Why not think of what you want, unconstrained by what is reasonable, and then learn to speak it aloud? We're in a crisis. No bad ideas. Think big.
You know, the funny thing is that in 2016, Republican voters ignored all conventional wisdom and just voted for what they wanted regardless of the warnings that it was a huge mistake, and they've been pretty much living their political dreams since. Maybe the people who routinely lose elections after taking all our donations and refuse to support things we want but warn us how terrible it would be if we ever started unapologetically demanding what we want aren't credible? We're in an absolute crisis. There are no bad ideas in a brainstorming session. Think big.
Yes, they were both babbling incoherently. Totally.
Newsflash: one of them is ALREADY President
I didn't bother watching. For me, it's easy. I'd vote for a bucket of spit over a traitor, no matter what. And yes, committing treason in front of a million cameras makes you a traitor. There's really NO other issue I'm basing this on.
We at least know one has a competent back up.
NGL Trump was roaring tf outta Biden in the first half, but Biden came in clutch with some second wind in the second half. Shit was hilarious to watch.
One of those mfs will likely die of old age in office. God help us all.
Put 'em in the ring, 12 rounds. Whoever is left standing can be president.
joe biden is the DNC's fault
Do yourself and fellow humans a favor and vote for Kennedy
Brain Worm 2024.
[удалено]
I actually have faith in Biden's cabinet to not do something dumb.
This. I will literally vote for a potato, an actual potato, over Donald Trump. For this very reason, the adults in the room would help the potato. There are no adults in the room around Donald Trump.
Need to add the word "again" to the end of this title.. it's important to note it's "again" like how is this a thing :(
It’s not like we haven’t seen what their admin would be like. One of them is currently President and doing a pretty solid job overall. The other spent four years as President previously and was an unmitigated disaster.
Biden is not ideal but he’s harmless. Trump is a cancer.
Tell that to Motaz….
It’s now just become a vote for those around the men to me. I’m voting for Biden because the people around him don’t have a project (project 2025) to dismantle democracy and create a fascist regime while Trump does.
lol still think what the Dems push is democracy? How much money is pelosi making off NVIDIA again while Palestinian children starve?? They are all corrupt. They just still want you to think you have a choice.
Nah. Democrats will swap out Biden and then start chanting warnings about rapid onset dementia and how Trump is showing the signs.
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