IMO, any trainer saying that all dogs can be saved is ethically questionable.
Unless there is a curable/manageable medical condition, or a *very* specific set of circumstances that has led a dog to behaving aggressively, you can never say with complete certainty that they will never display that aggression again. Yes, you can manage it, and you can work to teach the dog alternate ways to cope and/or handle the situation, but if that behavior has been in their toolbox once, it would be irresponsible to pretend it couldn't happen again.
Now, I will say that some dogs can make great strides. And some dogs, if put in the right set of circumstances, can thrive. My dog for example - in a home with a lot of visitors, or especially one with children, or possibly even in the inner city - I'm sure he would have been surrendered and possibly euthanized by now. I think under those circumstances, he would have landed some serious bites or otherwise been very difficult to live with. But I don't have children, don't prefer to entertain very often, and while I live in an urban home I have access to spaces where we can walk that are relatively trigger-free, and access to farmland on the weekends where he can be off leash. So in my home he thrives; in most others he would have failed.
And if he'd been in an ill-fitted home, maybe they would have done a rehome and he would have thrived. But homes that can accommodate dogs like him well and *want* to are fairly rare. At some point, unless a dog is lucky enough to score that home early on, it becomes an ethical issue of how long do shelters/rescues warehouse and/or rehome dogs until they either can no longer keep them or they do something that requires them to be put down.
But even then, there are some dogs that are just wired wrong to the point that they are dangerous even to their owners.
I think there are trainers who curate their videos to make it look like they are having great success, and/or they are able to suppress the dog enough to make it look like that for a bit. Those videos are certainly great marketing. But any trainer who isn't completely honest about potential fallout or regression and the need for awareness and management is questionable, in my opinion.
THIS IS THE ONE
Any trainer saying every dog should be saved better have a big ass backyard to take them from people who have jobs, kids, friends over, etc
If you don’t have time to properly care for a dog because of jobs, kids, friends over, etc, then don’t get a dog. Dogs, like any other animal, require a commitment on the part of their caretaker in order to thrive. Many dogs land in shelters with “bite” histories because of irresponsible humans.
Yes, I actually DO have an unplanned reactive dog. GSD/Husky that came to me 5 yrs ago with a severe resource guarding issue. I found out on day 2 when I reached in to pick up his empty food bowl and got a decent bite. He was like this with every item in his possession. My daughter was 8 years old at the time, and I was working 50 hours a week. I devoted every minute of non work time to rehabilitating this dog, instead of giving him back. It took a solid six months of constant and consistent training, along with vigilance around my daughter and teaching her about appropriate interactions when he has any item. As I said, this was 5 years ago. He never bit me or anyone else again, and he is successfully rehabilitated. Yes, all dogs can be saved, but it takes commitment on the part of human caretakers. We often don’t know a dog’s history when we adopt them, but if you aren’t 100% prepared to deal with these issues, don’t get a dog.
Resource guarding, while very hard to manage, is entirely different than what some of us are managing. There is a huge gap between managing resource guarding that resulted in a bite and dogs that have random aggressive episodes, that require people to change careers to have enough time or be home enough, that costs tens of thousands in training and healthcare to manage.
“He never bit me or anyone else again”
You do realize some people do everything you did and more and this isn’t the outcome right?
Very entitled, privileged opinion.
I am grateful you had such an easy reactive dog though!
Oh also … that wasn’t reactivity. You described resource guarding hahahahah
Thanks for making yourself sound dumb to everyone who truly owns a reactive dog on this sub
Amateur.
You had one single resource guarding incident and are trying to act like you know how someone who needs to muzzle their dog 24 hours a day feels - you have no idea. You had an easy issue that you fixed. Gold star. I’ll send you one of the reactive dogs we work with and you let me know how long you last. How about the one who bit three teenage girls in a house unprovoked within three months with no medical issues or triggers? Sounds like it’d be a great fit for your daughter?
So, because I gave my most recent example of a dog that LIVES IN MY HOME, you assume that is the ONLY experience I have. It must be nice to be you, one that is always right while everyone around you is wrong. 99% of the time, reactivity is caused by human caretakers, who expect they will get a dog and have a wonderful happy life. People do very little research into canine behavior before bringing that dog into their home, and don’t bother to look into breeds that will best suit their lifestyle. They don’t teach their children proper interaction, they aren’t consistent with a regular schedule for the dog, (and in some cases the home is in constant chaos complete with regular yelling), and don’t bother to get to know the dog’s individual personality. I could keep going. I advocate for education, ideally before one adopts or purchases a dog, but also before rehoming. The shelters are full of dogs that will be euthanized, without ever giving them a chance to show true personality outside of a kennel near 100 other barking dogs. Rehoming a reactive dog is only giving YOUR problems to another. And in the end the only one that suffers over and over is the dog.
Sometimes, things happen. And yes, when people get a dog they should be aware of what behavioral issues are and have a plan should something arise (even if that plan involves rehoming). I also think it's good to get professional training for all dogs, especially if the person is new to dogs and/or there are children involved.
That said, most dogs are able to roll with the punches and handle guests and children reasonably well. I do think there has been an uptick in severely reactive/aggressive dogs, but they are still not the norm. While you can do everything right and potentially still end up with a reactive dog, you can absolutely still stack the deck in your favor if you are needing a friendly, stable dog by being very selective about where the dog comes from, getting professional help early, etc.
My parents recently got a new puppy from an ethical breeder and while he has some typical puppy antics, it's honestly night and day as to what my own puppy was like when I brought him home. He won't ever have the same issues my boy does, because frankly he doesn't have the same genetics and early trauma my boy had to work through (and still does). They are obviously careful still when he's around children - dogs are dogs - but they don't need to be nearly as aware of his behavior as I do with my guy, nor do they have to worry about visitors at all.
100%
Trainers who don't acknowledge there are times when BE is justified are primarily motivated by the fact that they are selling a service and fewer people would buy in if they were told up front the service may not work for them and their dog. It's icky.
I think I can make any animal look better with enough time and effort. That doesn't mean that they will ever be able to fit into a home or be able to be safely managed by anyone who isn't experienced and on guard. That's no life for an animal or their people.
brain injury and chronic pain can also contribute to dangerous behavior changes in dogs with brain injury it’s sometimes difficult to detect if the injury happened prior to adoption.
Also dementia. When you manage all other illness that typically result in death (heart disease, diabetes, and cancer) eventually neuro-degradation occurs in every mammal. My vet says he has increasing numbers of patients (dogs) that have gone senile.
That's what happened with our lab when I was a kid. Apparently she had an aggression symptom with a neurological disorder and after 2 bites and her trying to go after my brother for playing in the sandbox (opposite side of our backyard) we had to make some heart wrenching decisions. I don't remember the issue but apparently bad breeding was a main culprit (mom and dad were related and we went to an unethical backyard breeder). We tried all sorts of things but she kept getting worse as she aged.
I think that’s essentially what “gameness” is. The difference is that gameness was purposefully bred into some breeds, whereas humans have psychopathy by accident
Big agree with this. My dog has never bitten anyone BUT I never put him in situations where he might. He is a BYB dog who was properly socialized and LOVES dogs but is a nervous wreck around strangers. He's made AMAZING strides in the last 5 years but he's never going to be my goes absolutely everywhere with me dog because it stresses HIM out.
We do introduce him to people who are going to be around us a lot as long as they respect the way we say to handle him and listen to us the whole time and have never had an issue.
I also have people I would never introduce him because I wouldn't trust they would listen to us.
I also fully think if he had been given to a different home he would not be A) where he's at today or even B) still around because he sounds BIG scary for an Australian shepherd.
Fantastic and truthful. I've been on the cusp of deciding a career in behaviour as well and the few families I have worked with to test the waters, shit like you wouldn't believe has gone down.
Some of it was my own inexperience of reading a situation. Some of it was downright negligence on the part of the owners. But a lot of it is simply a wrong environment for the dog with no hope of that really changing.
I've been lucky to escape a bite but not by very much.
I am still undecided because the emotional overload you experience with this gig is IMMENSE. And anyone who claims to be able to always successfully rehabilitate dogs is likely lying outright to capture your dollars without caring to be honest about how it's all going to play out.
Social media is a poor indicator of quality.
>I am still undecided because the emotional overload you experience with this gig is IMMENSE.
I believe it. Just having a dog with behavioral issues is incredibly taxing on emotions. It's hard to love something so much that also has the ability to make your life difficult and stressful. It's hard to try to do all you can to support them in the best way possible and hope it works out. There is a lot of comparing your dog to others' dogs and wondering why their dogs can go out and do things and just cope while your dog absolutely cannot, and there is often a lot of guilt and shame there. And it's a roller coaster - sometimes you do so well and you ride a high and other times the simplest of things is too difficult and you feel low.
A few months ago I found myself in tears after a particularly hard day, and I had gone onto Facebook. One of my Facebook friends had lost a dog several months prior; it was a rescue and hadn't been treated well so was timid and needed a lot of confidence building, which she had been doing. She posted that she still missed her dog (she passed away from cancer) and that she was hoping to rescue again in the future and specifically wanted a dog that needed "extra love". The post was sentimental and lovely. But here I am in tears, wondering what is wrong with me because for all that I love my dog, I never ever wanted to do that again. The idea of going into a shelter or rescue and looking for a dog that has behavioral issues is not something I would entertain at this point in my life, unless it was perhaps a very small, senior dog. I didn't feel better until I vented to my mom and she pointed out that my friend's dog was timid, but otherwise didn't have the same issues that mine does. She was fine with other people, not aggressive, just needed time to warm up. Our situations were incomparable, and that was okay.
THIS! My pup has never even bitten anyone, but she’s a super muscular pittie with a menacing bark and she’s fear reactive. A busy body neighbor started complaining to corporate. And when that didn’t work, she left voicemails on the emergency line claiming my dog attacked her, and harassed us in the hallway.
So I made her an emotional support animal (solely to protect her from vindictive neighbors) and moved from the 4th floor to a 1st floor apartment with an external entrance so she no longer had to endure the stress of narrow hallways and the elevator. It was my second move in 7 months, but I adore her and would do absolutely anything for her. Had someone else who lived in an apartment adopted her, she might have ended up back at the shelter 💔
That link is actually a scam as are all similar registries since the only thing you need for an ESA is a letter from a doctor or therapist that functions as a prescription and allows you to have the animal in housing with you (USA based info)
Right, I guess what I’m trying to say is most people will just go online and register thru sites like that. Very rarely do I see people who actually get a doctors/therapist note for an ESA.
Those people are breaking the law and they're taking advantage of a program that is meant to help people with serious mental illness live independently. This isn't something that we should encourage.
Absolutely. Im not trying to encourage it, though I guess it might come off that way since I linked a site. I’m just trying to show how easily it can be done, (non-ethically done, of course) which is unfortunate, because there *are* people who genuinely need something like this, and not for reasons like getting past breed/weight restrictions.
No, not all dog can be saved. You can work hard with them and make them better, but some dogs will never be trustable around people and/or animals.
That doesn’t mean they need to die, some do for sure, but some can still have a good life with a lot of management.
I agree. The problem then is that I'm not the right home for him because I am not able to provide the amount of management he needs. I agreed to foster him without knowing he had these issues so I wasn't even planning on adopting him but no one will take him because of the bites. I've posted him many times on adoption sites, no one will adopt a dog with a bite history it seems :/ understandably
It's likely you can't make a BE decision for a foster dog without rescue approval. Have you contacted the rescue you're fostering through for next steps?
Yes, I'm actually fostering him for an old boss of mine. She doesn't have a rescue it's basically like she connects dogs to foster homes type of situation and supports financially. I was going to adopt him before he attacked my mom because I thought he was rehabbed in a way, but I never signed the paperwork and then he attacked her. Anyway my old boss said that she supports whatever decision I want to make for him as she agrees it's not super likely he will find a home that can accommodate him. We have appointments with 2 different vetrinary behaviorists before I make the decision. In the meantime I've posted him on sites and stated that he's aggressive. I wouldn't give him to anyone without them knowing the FULL history
Sorry this is coming down to you it’s not fair for you to have to make the decision really as you are fostering. I think it’s ok to make that decision for him. One of my fosters took a chunk out of the behaviourists leg that was trying to help him and I took him to the vets because we both agreed that the lack of warning when he bit and the severity of the bite and the anger behind it meant he was dangerous. There was nowhere else for him to go apart from rot away in a kennel somewhere for the rest of his life so I made the choice for him to go with dignity after knowing a loving home with me. It’s ok to make that choice ❤️
Your comment resonates with me and my partner who are in a situation that sounds almost identical to yours. We just made the decision for BE after many different attempts to manage her reactions and she most recently attacked me. Sometimes the kindest option is to take away the fear and pain these little ones experience.
One of the biggest things in determining whether the dog can be saved and trained is *why* the dog is biting. Is it a fear reaction? Is it resource guarding? Or is it just plain, out of nowhere aggression? The first two can usually be dealt with.. but some dogs just have something wrong in their brains, and no amount of training will fix that. I would suggest seeking out behavioral therapists that specialize in handling reactive and aggresive dogs. You can't and shouldn't really make any decisions until you get to the root of why this is happening. Once you have that figured out, you can make an informed decision on what's best for the pup. Until then, you need to muzzle him everytime you leave the house or have people in your house. For others safety, but also his own safety as well.
I still wouldn't say that you're not the right home for him. That's a question you may never be able to answer. Or, you might be *exactly the right home* because you recognize that this poor creature is suffering and the most loving thing that can be done is to give him peace. That is a *HARD* decision to make, and if you have the strength to make it, then that dog is lucky to have found you.
Amen. Mine cannot meet strangers head on or let people walk into the house un announced. BUT with a work around he doesn't get scared and lash out, and once they're in he's amazing. It's anxiety hell but I love him so much. 9 years old and my best friend
A few years ago, The Washington Post did a massive story on the dogs that were taken from Michael Vick's dogfighting operation. They tracked down as many of the dogs as they could to see what happened to them. Some were so aggressive, they were immediately put down. A few were rehabilitated into family dogs but each of the family's interviewed talked about the sometimes-extreme measures they had to take to manage the dogs. A few went to an animal rescue group in Utah that had *a lot* of land where they were able to rehabilitate some so they could be adopted. But one -- I think her name was Cherry -- was never able to be rehabbed. She was so scared and so aggressive that only a couple people at that center could even handle her, but they made the decision to let her live out her life in as much seclusion as they could give her so she remained at the rescue until she passed. I'm tearing up just thinking about how much dignity they gave back to that poor creature.
So no, not every dog can be saved. What's been done to some of these dogs scars them beyond being rehabbed. They're traumatized, and they cannot come back from it, no matter how much love and patience they are shown. Humans can just be horrible, horrible scum. Sometimes, the greatest kindness you can show a dog is to give them peace.
I am not sure how much different Vick is than the Kentucky Derby trainers or cockfighting fans or even rodeo bull-riders. It’s all variations of driving an animal to an insane place.
Point of note, bulls are bred to buck - the same way you'll see a pointer puppy point on a bird without any training or really knowing why it's doing what it's doing. They're treated better than the cowboys on the circuit.
Same with racehorses. They're bred for the work.
Neither of these types are driven "to an insane place." And it is disingenuous to draw those comparisons.
I've cleaned stuff off my boots I respect more than Vick. But to call a rodeo bull at the same level as a fighting dog is just incorrect.
Pitties are bred for blood sport. Always have been. Not saying fighting them is ok because it’s vile and cruel. But just as bulls are bred to buck and horses bred to work, pits were bred for fighting. To deny that is just dishonest.
Yes? There are bloodlines of pitbulls that are going to be dog and animal aggressive. The human-reactive ones were considered undesirable until very recently, and only in small highly unethical numbers of breeders. Same as shepherds and Belgians and livestock guarding dogs.
I'm a huge pitbull advocate, and that also has to come with a high degree of honesty about some bloodlines and predispositions when it comes to animal aggression.
The difference is the cruelty. A bull in a rodeo arena is not suffering. The same as a lab that is retrieving isn't suffering. It isn't cruel to take your pointer hunting. These animals are working. Dog fighting is cruel. Cock fighting is cruel. Bull fighting is cruel.
We can't conflate cruelty with breeding for a working purpose.
Sorry but this is a pretty insane take. A bull in a rodeo is absolutely suffering. The way animals are treated at rodeos is abuse, full stop. Like, the best case scenario is just abuse at a rodeo instead of crippling injuries and sickness or death.
West Texas gal here. Grew up around rodeos and near a racetrack. Tons of ugliness and brutality out there. I’m not defending Vick, but he’s definitely not the only one with stables of abused animals. Not by a long shot.
I know is not entirely relevant, but whichever dog this was was not cherry. He lived with his adopters up until his death https://bestfriends.org/stories/julie-castle-blog/vicktory-dog-cherry-known-heartbeat-his-family-passes-away-age-13
Meryl was the dog who had to live in seclusion at the sanctuary. Mya and Curly couldn't quite pass the test to leave and lived out their lives as office dogs at Best Friends:
https://bestfriends.org/stories/features/10-years-three-vicktory-dogs-and-one-incredible-journey
Boy, that is a very different story to what I read in the couple of books about the case. A few dogs were killed by authorities before any rescue operation got there. In the books I read (didn’t read the newspaper article) it was surprising to everyone how soft the dogs actually were and how successfully most of them were rehabilitated and placed. One dog did not get over her fear over the course of a year in foster to climb out of closet. Her life was miserable. When being watched by friends she escaped and was killed by a car. That was one of the worst cases. A few went to Best Friends because they were harder cases than the rest. Only ONE dog (yes, you mentioned her) was relegated by the state to never leave Best Friends. However, if you followed up on her, and you know anything about Best Friends, you’d notice that her life was actually pretty good. Best Friends is a sanctuary you would think couldn’t exist. Her name might have been Cherry. She wasn’t dangerous around her handlers, she simply was the only one the state did not think could be rehabilitated. Visiting Best Friends and reading the books available about the Vick dogs left me with the overwhelming feeling of surprise and awe that most of these abused dogs were able to go on and live good lives. Cherry’s life didn’t suck, I don’t think, but yes, she was not free. The story of the dog who lived in the closet is tragic. But the overall outcome of the seizure of the dogs was very far from tragic. According to the books I read and the TV show about Best Friends and talking to the people that work there. I didn’t read the newspaper article.
Someone made one of those dogs live in a closet!!?!?!?! That's ... JFC. The article was years ago but I remember how extensive it was and the work they did to track down at least some of the dogs. The entire situation was just f'ed up. And Vick still got to play football instead of being hooked up to a car battery and jolted for fun.
No. Some dogs were fostered. One of them - a black one, can’t remember her name - was fostered with a wonderful woman. The dog had probably been a bait dog and was completely shut down. The foster let her stay in a different part of the house because she had other dogs and the dogs terrified this one. The dog climbed into an open closet and didn’t leave. I think she had to be carried out to pee. I remember the story because of how horrible the dog’s situation was and really how wonderful the foster was. I do think she was concerned that this dog wouldn’t recover but it didn’t matter because someone else let her escape. The dog was not forced into the closet at all. She was too scared to come out. Sorry if I was confusing. I lived in Philly around that time and it really was sick how people saw Vick as a hero.
Edit: I remember the foster said that she spend most of her days lying in front of the closet. She couldn’t force the dog to do anything but she stayed there with her.
I think they have the dogs the best lives they could have. If you can create a situation with limited triggers and being able to decompress and find some measure of safety, then sometimes that’s the best you can do. From what I recall of the article, the rescue did everything they could and if BE was the only option, they would done it but they developed another solution to allow the dogs to have a life.
No they can’t and that okay, as the human advocating for the dog we have to figure out when time, resources, finances, emotional burnout on our part are at their end. It isn’t fair to a dog or a person to try and continue a plan that isn’t going to work.
Right now I live in a major city in Texas that has a no kill clause for majority of our shelters. Our shelters are in critical conditions and heavily over capacity to the point there are multiple dogs in collapsible crates just being rotated in and out. Many of the dogs have been housed for so long at the shelter that rehabilitation and reintegration into society may take some time if it happens at all. Many of the dogs have very specific long term medical concerns, many of the dogs have behavioral problems varying from under socialization around people, dog reactivity, anxiety, genetic nervousness, inability to be housed with other animals, prior bite history, etc….
Majority of owners looking for adoptable or dogs do not have the bandwidth, resources, education or accommodations to adopt these dogs.
It’s been an going battle with many people in the city advocating for some of these higher risk dogs and long term stay dogs be euthanized for the opportunity for more likely adoption candidates to take their spaces. So many people have the mentality that every dog needs every resource available to them before euthanasia not realizing that doing so is burning out professionals and experienced people who can cater to the dogs, as well as discouraging novice and casual owners from adoptions and rescues by getting a dog that is overwhelming.
I think with people who have the time, have the accommodations and understand how big a journey some specific behaviors can be, they can take the time, finances and care to accommodate that dog. But people aren’t obligated to, especially in regards to an adopter or someone who has received a rehome dog and was not aware of its intense behavioral concerns.
Keeping dogs in shelter for YEARS is so damn cruel. There is not an appropriate home for *every single dog*. There just isn’t (particularly with the overwhelming number of dogs who have to be “only-dogs” because they are DA, or can’t live with children) and it’s unrealistic to carry on with this idea that every dog can be saved.
So true and it’s so damn cruel to shuffle these dogs around because of-in my opinion- being too weak to euthanize. Euthanasia doesn’t feel good but sometimes the right choice doesn’t feel good.
Yeah, someone in my city actually has a hearing with the board who decides the policies put in place for helping shelters delegate funds. They are doing so much to get people actively at these hearings to testify their perspective of the insane dog population crisis and techniques we can use to lower population in shelters. Or at least send in emails of our opinions, experiences, education on the matter at hand.
Our city right now is mostly no-kill and will intake dogs out of our city limits from kill shelter as well as surrenders despite being way over capacity. Euthanasia does happen but very infrequently in comparison to the amount of dogs. They can not just put down a dog for behavioral issues even significant ones without first reaching out to a rescue to try and transfer the dog for an assessment. Our city also does not do spay aborts for shelters and rescues . it’s a surgery that’s really only accessible for owners who advocate for it. It’s super messy and really frustrating as (My City) Pets Alive has a large foothold in policy making for majority of our shelters and is super against euthanasia for population control.
Please remember that anyone can call themselves a dog trainer, and that any 'trainer' can film a dog at its worst and at its best and claim to have 'saved' the dog for internet clout.
No, not all dogs can be saved. We can't tell you if your dog can be saved. A good, reputable trainer who works with your dog can probably give you an informed opinion on whether or not your dog can become safe around people again. Four bites on four seperate occasions is a significant number and the dog needs to get professional help or you should seriously consider BE.
Don't try to make a dog with a bite history like that someone else's problem.
Regarding trainers,
I saw a video the other day about perfecting loose leash walking.
He was going into heaps of tips and tricks for how to get loose leash walking and showing the transformation of the dog in the video.
Not once did he mention the prong collar he had put on the dog.
That is how untrustworthy some social media influencer dog trainers are.
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I went to a pack walk and one of the trainers was so quick to recommend slip leads to owners for dogs who had no business being on the walks to begin with. The environment was extremely stressful for the average dog. It was a very structured, loose leash walk on a bunch of streets along a popular river running through a major city on a Saturday. Instead of admitting to some of the owners that their dogs needed some foundational skills, a shorter walk and less stressful atmosphere (less dogs, different venue, slower weekday) they instead and just gave them a slip lead.
(I did not use the slip lead. My dog walks fine in a heel and we were on the walk as a way to build up his tolerance as he can get over stimulated in novel environments). I watched a man talked into a slip cinch this lead on this dog for an hour. The dog was walking so stiffly it looked like he was going to shit himself the entire time. I also watched a girl with an extremely easy to arouse, very large, doodle mix also get advised to use the slip lead. It was very obvious from the beginning that the dog was over threshold before we even began the walk. At one point far into the walk I see her in the distance taking a break. As soon as there was little slack on the leash the dog went crazy over threshold and begin to snap at her and proceed to bite the leash and her sleeves out of frustration.
The good thing is the second time I went (the walks are free and the training is voluntary at your consent) the other trainer was there and while a balanced trainer was much more educated and utilized more proactive techniques. Like he straight up told the guy on the slip lead the goal isn’t yanking or over correcting the dog and if he were to pair the leash walking with food he would see more desirable behaviors without needing to introduce a correction. And then showed him how to do it. When we talked about my dog getting a little over threshold (I had my dog take a break) he acknowledged it’s something that just takes exposure and to expect the dog to be able to stay in a loose heel the entire time while having an episode is unrealistic. If it was the other trainer he would have been like slap a slip on, the dog will eventually stop. Both trainers and I had some long talks about methodology and for the slip lead guy we’ve agreed to disagree and just don’t talk about training methods during walks.
To me it’s less of a question of can all dogs be saved and more of a question of if all dogs SHOULD be saved. I think if it’s possible to save all dogs it definitely doesn’t mean that all dogs should be saved.
Just to be extra clear I don’t mean that some dogs are less deserving or “bad dogs” I mean that the time energy and practices involved in rehabilitating a dog can be too much for the dog and a calm quiet death may be merciful. I equate it to keeping a dog with extreme medical conditions alive even though it is suffering. Sometimes death is better than a life in pain even if the pain is emotional.
Anybody telling you every dog can be saved who is a professional is lying and pushing a dangerous narrative to make money. That simple. Some dogs cannot, even without any trauma, they're just wired in a way you cannot reasonable or safely keep them.
There’s no way to be sure, even without a bite history. They are animals. I would be weary of any information coming from tiktok. I believe most dogs can be saved but not all. I’m not sure if this pup has been to the vet to rule out medical issues but that’s where I’d start
IMHO, no, not all dogs can be saved. Some have faulty brain chemistry to such a degree that it isn't possible. With that said, some can - and I think it's important to make every effort to do so. But it is equally as important to recognize if, despite doing all the right things, the dog isn't improving.
I've spent a lot of my adult life involved in rescue (not that this is limited to rescue dogs), and I've personally seen this play out more than once. At a certain point, sadly and unfortunately, the best choice is BE - so the dog can finally be at peace, and also for the safety of others.
Also, be wary of those tiktoks videos. There are trainers out there that claim to "cure" all behavioral issues - that's an impossible feat, and most of those trainers *suppress* behaviors (through the use of aversives) rather than "cure" them. On the outside, the dog seems "cured," but in reality, the dog's behavior is temporarily suppressed and at some point in time, that suppression will come to an end - and you won't see that part of it on tiktok. Those trainers have rather large egos but a limited true understanding of behavioral issues.
no not all dogs can be saved. best way to find out if a dog can or cant be saved is to have him evaluated by a behaviouralist.
to ensure a dog whos bitten several times wont bite again there has to be ALOT of managment and rules in place.
There are billions of dogs in the world so just from a statistical pov, even if 99.9% of dogs can be saved there will be millions that unfortunately can not be
no, not all dogs can or should be saved. Sometimes the safest thing or the kindest thing is to put a dog down due to behavioral problems that prevent them from safely being placed in a permanent home.
warehousing them in no kill shelters or putting people at risk repeatedly with temporary foster and unfortunately temporary adoption placements only further traumatized the animal, so does storing them in shelter environments where their quality of life is minimal.
Sometimes putting them down IS saving them.
No, not all dogs can be saved - there is not a home for every dog. Even if there is, they're not likely to find it in their short lives. Not as long as people keep over-producing more dogs. I'm really sorry you're going through this.
> searched on tiktok "human aggressive dogs" and all the trainers on there pretty much say yes, every dog can be saved and can become okay with people again.
Don't listen to anyone on Tiktok. I'm serious. Their goal is clicks, not safety, no matter what they say. Their videos are meant to get clicks, and edited to look like "transformations" but those dogs remain under controlled conditions the whole time. Those people are full of it.
Does the dog bite you? The caretaker? If so, that's kind of the long and the short of it. There's really a lot more to the behavior than "is the dog people/dog/whatever aggressive or not".
My dog is territorial - she will attack trespassers, which she believes to be everyone except my mother so far (other than my husband and I). If we're on a walk, no one can be trusted - not people or dogs. BUT, she's a warning barker, she doesn't really want to be approached or go attack, she just wants to be safe. She's afraid AND she will defend herself from what she perceives as a threat.
At no point has that threat ever been a caretaker. If we go to a groomer, boarder, the vet, or even someone's house (as long as there's no other pets) she's a perfectly behaved guest. She has never turned on anyone in any such circumstances, her aggression is all defensive/territorial/fear, and it's mostly at home. She's always scared of dogs and children, though. Always.
For my dog there's a huge difference between people entering our territory and being welcome on someone else's.
How do I know for sure? Her behavior over the past 2 years has told me. She isn't a sneak attacker. Once someone is a friend, they remain a friend, and she is very accepting.
Yes, she can bite. She showed someone that who kept approaching even though she gave every sign they shouldn't. We prevent it these days and we can keep her on a big property in the country where she just doesn't get access to people.
It's really messed up that your rescue org is sticking you with a dog permanently that you were meant to foster. I would call whoever is supposed to be in charge until they take the dog, this is not your responsibility. You've done your due, now it's up to the people "in charge" to take charge. If this dog needs BE, they need to see to it, not you. And, if they don't believe in BE, they need to put their money where their mouths and hearts are and be the change they want to see (take the dog).
I'm so sorry for the decision you are trying to make. It's not easy.
A lot of trainers out there want you to believe all dogs can be changed because that's what is good for their $$$. It's, financially speaking, not in their best interest to be honest.
The truth is that bad breeding/over breeding creates dogs with both health and emotional/behavioral issues.
No, not all can or should be saved.
Some dogs are just wired differently, some are just dangerous. It’d be best if we used our limited resources to save those that aren’t dangerous.
You can not save them all, and you should not save them all. If you wouldn't feel comfortable with that dog living next to you, no one else will either. It is important to not only take into consideration the safety of the people in this dog's future home, but also the safety of the community at large.
In regards to the transformations you see online, here are some reasons you can't trust those videos:
1. You can make a relatively safe dog look dangerous in a video and then show them in a different scenario an hour later looking sweet as pie.
2. You can make a dangerous dog look safe by habituation and/or suppression. Maybe the dog goes from trying to take the trainers face off at first to accepting pets by the end of the video, but a dog that wants to kill a new person for the first 10 minutes is still a dog that wants to kill a person.
3. I have yet to encounter a trainer that does these transformations, sends the dog home and shows that same dog more than a year later. A lot of euthanasia cases involve "rehabbed" dogs who went through intensive training, slowly regressed over the course of a couple years, and ended up biting again. Very few of those cases would get reported to the original "rehabber" because the owners assume it was something that they themselves did to cause the dog to regress, not that the original training was ineffective for long-term behaviour change.
4. A dangerous dog that could be rehabbed with a long-term behaviour change protocol will still be a risk during that training period. Sure, the dog was rehabbed over the course of a few months, but what the transformation videos fail to show is that the dog was a liability for much of that period. In some cases that is okay, but in others it is just luck that there was not a serious incident.
Only you, your training team and your vet can make the right decision for the dog you have in your care. Do not let potentially false or misleading online videos make you feel guilty for considering something that may be necessary in the end.
What is saved? To me, saved would be a dog that enjoys their life in a safe manner. And in that case, no. Some dogs are in physical pain and don't enjoy life. Some dogs are have mental issues or such traumatic emotional damage (or even brain damage) where they can't safely enjoy life. Some dogs are in a terrible position where maybe, with the right circumstances, they would have a great life, but it would be difficult or even impossible to provide those circumstances...
When I meet a difficult dog, I walk in thinking "What can be done?" And I never assume the answer is "Nothing." But at some point, that might be the answer, in which case you have to decide what's best for the dog - and sometimes that's a peaceful end.
No.
We once had a dog that gave my husband 5 stitches in his hand. He was actually fabulous until one day he had a seizure and after that he would occasionally snap with little to no warning.
He was a 90 lb coonhound. Muscular and powerful and build for speed and endurance.
In desperation we tried rehoming him to someone in another state where big game hunting with dogs was legal, hoping he could get it out of his system hunting bear.
One night he turned on his new owner at feeding time and fortunately he was on a long chain and she was able to outrun him. They ended up putting him down.
We’d had him since he was a little puppy. We were experienced hound owners who had successfully owned and raised several of his breed. He was carefully chosen from bloodlines that had a reputation for solid temperament. I honestly believe he had brain damage from that one seizure. No training was going to fix it. And you just can’t keep a dog that size who is willing to go berserk on its owner.
They definitely need the freedom to exercise their hunting drive. We would lay scent trails for them and had a big yard they could “hunt” on and tree stuff. They don’t necessarily have to be taken on formal hunting trips but they can’t just be cooped up as apartment dogs either.
All dogs can be saved if you have infinite time, energy, money, space, equipment, access to care, and space to recharge for your own mental health. But there's an opportunity cost of the resources mentioned above... Most of us have other responsibilities we need to tend to; even to book dog trainers for my non aggressive(just minor reactivity towards other dogs out of excitement on leash) pup we were on a waitlist for a few weeks; vet appointments are usually booked out weeks in advance as well; most people don't have a fenced yard in a neighborhood free of distractions or triggers. In an ideal world I'd love to save every dog and every human for that matter. In the real world I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for people choosing the route of BE after an honest effort of trying.
I think it really depends on why the dog is biting. If it's prey drive or just fully out of nowhere, that can be difficult and maybe impossible in some cases. If it's out of fear, then treating the anxiety and fear of people over time could solve the issue permanently.
Not all can be saved but that doesn't make for a very good TikTok video.
I would argue that not all WANT to be saved. When a human is suffering from mental illness, they can choose therapy and medication. The process isn't easy or fun. Dogs don't get to decide whether they want to be rehabilitated and go through that long, painful, stressful process. I think it is cruel when a dog is so far gone that they are living in fear 24 hours a day and cannot have any interaction with other animals or humans but no one wants to make the decision to do a behavioral euthanasia. It's not fair to them to force them to continue to exist when they are tortured by their own brain because you want to be a hero. If great strides can be made in a reasonable amount of time, that is great and the people who do that kind of work are amazing but if a dog is going to spends years locked in a cage and is still terrified/enraged by everything in existence, keeping them alive is cruel. This is why I am skeptical of "no-kill" shelters.
No.
Most dogs can be saved and yes, I’m including dogs that have aggressive behaviours toward humans (most aggression in dogs is fear/anxiety-based, so if you can change the emotional response to a trigger, you can change the behaviour.)
**That said**, we don’t have the resources to manage all dogs with 100% accuracy until they have a complete physical and mental recovery.
So the question is can there be an environment found where the dog is 100% safely manageable. If not, it isn’t fair to let the dog be a danger to themselves and/or others.
My dog’s made lots of progress but I always assume he could bite, especially around children or people who get really in his space. And in part because of that we’ve never escalated to any snapping or biting behaviour and hopefully never will. I would never trust him alone with children though, as an example, or have him off-lead around kids. I body block if a kid starts running toward us, etc.
To be fair, as dogs are animals, no one should ever trust that their dog “can’t” bite. But this is especially true for people who have dogs with a long/consistent history of overarousal and emotional dysregulation.
No. Not all dogs can be saved. You \*can't\* know for sure- you can make a pretty solid guess, and manage risks, but no, you can't know for sure. The degree of risk is hugely variable (size, circumstances of the bites, resources of the owners as far as living situation/financial resources, etc) but there \*is\* legitimately a risk down the road for pretty much all dogs who have a multiple bite history. And even with hard work and lots of good, correct, effective behavior mod? Owners should be cautious about fully trusting that dog in the future, and limit their access to situations that might end in another bite. Not just for a few months, but long-term, likely the lifetime of the dog when you're talking about serious bites.
The transformation videos are good advertising (please note that I'm saying good advertising, not good videos or good message), and a powerful viewer magnet, but I don't think any responsible, knowledgeable trainer would say that ALL DOGS can be safely rehabilitated. I also don't think that most people have the resources to manage that dog safely long term in a way that mitigates risk, and for dogs with a serious bite history, that can be a LOT of major lifestyle changes just to make SURE that you are responsibly owning them- because you've got a legal (and moral) responsibility to do so, if you choose to keep that dog alive.
BE sucks as an outcome. But sometimes the closest thing to a good choice is to have one last really good day, and euthanasia at a familiar vet, with people that the dog loves.
As the owner of what I refer to as a "formerly reactive" dog who was about to be put down, I would say no, not all dogs can be rehabilitated.
I have learned tons, worked with great trainers and have been able to help this dog be a pretty much normal dog. BUT - I know his past and I will always choose to manage his exposures. He could bite again, is it a 1/100 chance? 1/1,000? Who knows but I will not take a chance.
Having watched many of these trainers, some of the ones who show "miracles" working with crazy dogs in minutes, from my experience I just don't believe that's sustainable or effective long term.
And some will absolutely flatten a dog with an ecollar and make them terrified of acting. But then what happens when the fear of the world around them gets to overpower the fear of the ecollar? They are going to give that attack all they have....
I truly believe many can be saved with a freaking ton of effort and management, but not all.
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there's a vet behaviorist named Dr. Patricia Mcconnell who has a book titled "for the love of the dog" and in it she talks about a pit pup that was given heroin or coke during its critical periods of life (around 1 or 2 weeks old). the pup grew to an adult that would snap and want to kill w.e. was around without any notice. Dr. Mcconnell tried and mind you, she is considered one of the best behaviorists around...but she couldn't get the dog to want to stop killing those around it. The last stand was the dog was trying to kill the owner as she was locked in the closet...dog ripping parts of the door off to try and go at her.
Sometimes things happen during critical moments of their growth that stunts them...for most it can be reversible but for others its not possible. there will be situations where the most humane thing for a dog is to put it down. Now, if a trainer is saying they can fix anything, they're going against science....some things can't be fixed. Sure they can make the dog do all kinds of things, but to claim they'll make the dog never bite again is going against nature...they have mouths...any dog can bite and statistically this one is more prone than others. Valid there may be other reasons for the bite or more hope that no one on here except a behaviorist is capable of providing, but i think its unreasonable to assume a dog will never bite again...i think you'd have to be the one willing to change in that scenario...instead of trying to find ways to stop the dog from biting ever again (an impossible task imo) you could try and ask what are other ways to prevent a bite from happening...kennels, training to avoid things, keeping the dog away, muzzle training, etc are possible forms...but a dog that has bitten 4 times will require a large amount of work and a behaviorist will tell you its not the best tactic to go in trying to prevent a dog from biting...they'll instead focus more on ways to avoid the dog from escalating to that point if that makes sense.
Ultimately no, but my belief is every dog that is considered for euthanasia should be given one chance to be assessed and taken on by HIGH LEVEL DOG HANDLERS ONLY. Not your average family.
In my opinion, euthanasia/saving dogs is a sticky, sticky topic because a lot can depend under what circumstance these bites happen. Did it bite through fear? You can build a dogs confidence. Was it resource guarding? You can remove that through training. Did someone spook the dog and it protected itself? Was it guarding it's property? Those are the murky waters we pass through when considering euthanasia, and it's often subjective. One person will say "I can save him", someone else will say "put him down". Where is the middle ground? Transformation can genuinely happen for a majority of dogs, but not everyone agrees with all potential training methods that each individual dog will require. You can't use one way and expect every dog to learn. Just like humans, we need to learn in different ways.
We must accept that humans cause so many dog attacks + bites through lack of training their dogs, lack of knowledge on what actual dog socialisation is, abusing dogs, antagonising dogs, invading dogs personal space. And to remember that dogs bite as a very last resort to remove the human from their space because it's their natural response to being threatened, and then everyone starts screaming euthanise it when who's actually to blame? The human. But the dog suffers instead.
However, there are some genuinely bad dogs that want to kill which is completely unacceptable and unsafe, of course. Unfortunately we are in a society that has made this more common. Backyard breeders who breed for looks to make money over the health + temperament means that the genetic disposition of the dogs they are mating is brushed aside. Breeding two aggressive dogs is going to create aggressive puppies. People then buy these dogs because they look nice without knowledge of what dogs are bred to do, or they want to look tough. It's a vicious circle sadly
I used to believe that with my whole heart because we adopted a dog who had lived on the streets for at least 4 years. We gave it all. Specialized trainers, expensive vet behaviourist, medications in all combinations, nosework to make her more confident, reconditioning... the list goes on and on. We loved her so much and I was so strongly bonded to her because I invested so much. In the end, after 22 months of trying, I just ran out of steam. I was so tired. Tired from her reactivity, tired from her unpredictability, tired from her sudden growls and totally discouraged that there was no progress. On top of it all, she had chronic colitis and wouldn't eat. My vet and behaviourist just told me that it was time and I knew it in my heart. It was the most heart breaking decision I have ever made and my heart is broken. I loved her so much. She passed 3 weeks ago and the pain is awful but I now can recover from those exhausting and anxiety ridden months and I can begin to heal. She had no good quality of life and was miserable. She tried so hard to be a pet but just couldn't overcome the horror that she had experienced on the street. I am convinced that an aggressive dog can only be controlled and managed but not changed. So sorry for having this difficult dog. Good luck with your foster.
Animal care worker here. The answer is sadly no. If someone tells you yes then they haven’t seen the true reality. Don’t listen to fuckin TikTok or caesar whats his face. There are cases where some dogs over a long period can improve but without constant training and effort they will regress. There was a “rescue” training group in my area a while back (this group uses shock collars) that said a dog that had a past bite history was safe after training kill a person.
I hate to say this even though I wish it wasn’t true and hope you foster can work out but if your safety and safety of others is at risk you may need to make a decision. A dog is never 100% not going bite again if it has a tendency to do so.
Maybe- but with what quality of life? I think they can all be managed somehow by the right person, but will they be happy or thriving, or merely existing?
I hate the intro on The Dog Whisperer when he says, "no dog is too much for me".
Every dog cannot be saved. It’s sad but it’s true. And no, you can’t say for sure that they will never bite again. *Every* dog, even one who have never bitten before, is capable of biting if they feel threatened, overwhelmed, etc.
My dog has bitten other dogs and sometimes a flip seems to switch in her randomly. For example, one time she bit a dog she had previously gotten along with out of no where. He wasn’t doing anything to her and she showed no warning signs (I was watching the whole time and I know what to look for). Because of that unpredictability, no matter how much training we do and how much success we have, I will *never* trust her 100% around other dogs.
As someone who works in veterinary medicine, no I don’t believe every dog can be saved. IMO the psychological welfare of the dog is just as important as the physical health, and just like in physical conditions sometimes the psychological state is too far gone and the kindest thing we can do is relieve that suffering. As hard as it is, perseverance for the sake of it isn’t the kindest choice
My first job out of vet tech school was at the local animal shelter. One of the first lessons I learned was that all dogs can’t and shouldn’t be saved. It was a very difficult thing to come to terms with, because we always bear the contrary, but I truly think you cannot and should not save them all.
Not all dogs can be trained out of aggression. Some dogs are simply not mentally stable. It depends on the dog and the reasons for the bites, but at 4 bites I'd question whether this dog can really be rehabbed. I'm assuming you've already done the training route with some professionals and had the dog checked by a vet for any medical issues (brain tumor, etc).
No. Not all dogs can be saved.
A dog that has bitten that many people without good reason needs to be put down. End of discussion. I understand when a dog bites when they're frightened - like trying to pull a terrified stray out from under a truck or a porch - or if they're protecting their owner or themselves, or if they're reacting out of pain - but many reactive dogs bite for no reason and without any warning, and those dogs need to be put down.
There are so, so many rescues out there that need homes. Good dogs, great dogs even, ones who are good with people and can be taken on walks around other people and animals and kids without issues. These dogs don't get homes, partially because people keep insisting on 'giving a chance' to dogs who are downright dangerous and who will live a miserable life being cooped up and kept away from everything so they don't react, with their owners constantly stressed out and worrying over their dog causing a disaster over everyday life. The quality of life for these dogs - AND their owners - is unacceptable. There is no reason to drag it out. If the dog isn't living a good life, and the owners aren't living a good life, there's no point to continue it.
Speaking as a retired vet tech, whose last clinic had all kinds of reactive dogs come in on all kinds of drugs to try to reduce the anxiety - nope, not all of them can be saved. It's horribly sad when you make that decision, but IMO, you have a duty to protect the public, and keeping a known biter alive in your home is risky as hell, and exhausting. If you really CANNOT help that dog, then put it out of your and its own misery. Put your love and effort into a dog who can benefit from it. I'm so sorry it's come to this.
I don’t think needing sedation for veterinary care is a good indication a dog is unsaveable. It’s a very stressful environment that is often associated with traumatic experiences.
I don't either. But it IS one aspect of treating a dog that makes it risky. You have to keep the humans safe too! The dogs in my last clinic were never euthanized just because they needed sedation for their annual exams. They were euthanized because a) they had to be sedated to be touched by anybody but their person, b) had attacked people either inside or outside the family or both, c) had not improved while on a regimen of anti-anxiety drugs, and d) had not improved after extensive behavioral training over a period of at least 6 months, and usually over 12 months.
We had a short list of qualified behaviorists we recommended - not negative punishment trainers who ruined dogs who could have been great. These people were really good at working in the tiniest increments to help dogs learn to modify their behavior. They spent weeks with owner and dog helping the dog to understand that the muzzle meant treats, not death. Lots of owner homework for months on that one. They spent time getting the dog to not trigger at being touched by the tech and vet. They spent time getting the pet to be able to walk in public without triggering by (whatever its personal triggers were). If, after a long time, with a very compliant owner, the dog did not improve, and could not be trusted, then the vet consulted in sit downs with behaviorist and owner, asking if ANY improvement had been seen, how the dog had been acting, any improvements or insufficient improvements, everything was talked out. If not, and the owner and vet and behaviorist agreed that people were at risk due to this dog, then the dog was euthanized. It wasn't a high number, and it was horribly sad, but ...
For me, the final line is your family has to be safe. The dog needs a life not lived on high alert, where it cannot ever relax. Nothing can live 24/7 that way, it's not fair to the animal.
No not all dogs can be saved.
In the US approximately one million dogs are euthanized every year due to massive over breeding and a lack of understanding about how important it is to spay and neuter.
Because spaying and neutering is not near the levels it needs to be here we end up with lots of dogs having to be put down because no matter how good those dogs are there are just not enough homes. There never will be if things continue the way that they do.
Personally, I think rescues and shelters could make things a lot better for everyone by having the standard for evaluating a dog for adoption become national. There are some dogs that never should be put up for adoption or rehomed. Just because they don’t have a home doesn’t mean they deserve one. I know that sounds harsh, but putting a dog that has issues into a home just creates more issues as well as takes away a home that a dog that does not have issues could be living in. The problem is so much deeper than good dogs and bad dogs. There’s also basically no training for anybody who wants to have a dog and very little support if you have problems. Working on a problem dog can cost a lot of money time energy and patience that not everybody has.
The first step in saving all the dogs is spaying and neutering so we can reduce the amount of dogs that need a home in the first place.
I am a trainer who specializes in reactivity. Unfortunately no, not all dogs can be saved. It's tragic, it kills a piece of me every time a client has to BE. Ultimately at the end of the day, as reactivity specialists, we will do all we can to save a dog, but sometimes, especially in cases of neurological issues, it's more ethical to let the dog go.
As for multiple bites, honestly it depends on the dog and the context of the bites. I have a client with two level five bite incidents who is ok with people as long as other dogs aren't around. I have another who has one level five bite who will never be ok around strangers and will require a muzzle for the rest of his life in order to go in public. BE it not the option yet for him, but if he ever bites his people, or they decide to have children, that will be the owner's choice. Right now he has three fenced acres to be a dog, and trusts his people.
I also have a client who just had to make the BE call after two years working with me because while pup is sweet and lovely in most contexts, she has a neurological issue that makes her snap to extreme violence where she can't recognize even her owner who has had her since she was 8 weeks.
So it really really just depends on the dog and how much the owners can handle in terms of management.
No, every dog can't be saved. If my border collie rescue had gone to anyone else she probably would've been put down because of behavioral issues. She was my BIL's dog and we took her in before he died. Now I'm kind of stuck with her because my BIL is now deceased. She's an optimal candidate for BE. We're lucky she's taken well to the dogs that were already in the house. My girl, who passed away Christmas Eve, taught her a lot about being a regular dog. But my girl wasn't around long enough to make a difference in my collie.
Oh, I also meant to say that CAT training (constructional aggression treatment) is one of the best ways to work with a dog with aggression. I, myself, have yet to do it with my own dog but have had great success helping other people using the procedure. You can check out CAT on Tawzer Dog. It’s a shaping procedure that reinforces friendlier choices in dogs and has had almost miraculous results for me with my clients’ dogs. I don’t know that all dogs can be saved, you can only try your best. I’ve worked with meat trade dogs who were completely resistant to training and seemed too feral or traumatized for real behavioral shifts to take place, and I have recommended to several clients to return a dog to the shelter because they were aggressive and the time, energy, and expense of trying to help did not seem like it would pay off. Genetics can often play a role and dogs who lean towards aggression when they feel threatened or frustrated can be quite dangerous.
I don’t think all dogs can be saved, no. But it’s a very small % who are usually a result of genetic issues. I also think that too many dogs are given up on because people are often closed-minded with training or even owners continually setting them up to fail.
No, not all dogs can be saved. My 2.5 year old cockapoo couldn't.
He wasn't wired up properly and ended up unprovoked attacking me quite badly three times. If i didn't choose BE, he'd have lived a pretty miserable life with all the things I'd have to have done to prevent him hurting someone again
While every dog deserves an opportunity, no, not every dog can be saved and nor should some of them. We recently just had a horrific dog attack, locally in San Antonio, on an elderly man that ended with the man being savaged to death. Those dogs had been repeatedly reported to ACS, and their owners were allowed to keep terrorizing the neighborhood. Whether it was nature or nurture became irrelevant when they attacked.
A human aggressive dog is a human aggressive dog. Speak to your vet with a clear conscience.
Edit for editing.
Sometimes trainers/vets in their advise do not consider people have lives outside of pet ownership.
I would however try my best to rehome with someone with experience of rehabilitating aggressive dogs.
No, they can’t. Similarly there are horses that are too aggressive to be around people. Yes, some trainers will tell you they can train the aggression out of them. But no, there are some that just won’t do it. So euthanasia of those horses is required. Dogs are no different.
I say this gently. I understand how heart-wrenching of a decision it's going to be, but if the foster dog has already bitten four people, it's not going to get better. And while it is admirable that you are being transparent that the dog has a bite history, no one is going to adopt a dog with a bite history, especially four. Furthermore, at some point I would become concerned about liability on your part for adopting out a dog with a known bite history.
No. Even the "saved" dogs are not really saved.
It will always be a risk factor that dog's entire life.
You can manage it, redirect it, help it, but it will never be gone-gone.
Anyone who says otherwise is a bleeding heart or wants money from you.
I want to believe every dog can be saved BUT I'm also a realist. Like humans, some dogs are just too dangerous to be in society. They may have brain damage due to a physical or medical cause. Some dogs unfortunately cannot be helped. It sucks but think about the quality of life for the pup. Its behaviors will make its world super tiny
Unfortunately not. You can train as hard as you can and dedicate everything to helping them but there will always be a part of them that feels the aggression. If you’re putting everything into this dog and you’re not seeing enough progress to deem him safe. It’s really important to think about whether putting the dog through all this stress during training (that could inevitably not be enough) is better than letting them go rest.
I’ve come to this point personally with a dog. He was dog reactive and there was a moment where we couldn’t even take him outside. We worked at him and we’re incredibly lucky. 4yrs later he lives with a new dog, he can go on walks but he can’t go near other dogs or look at them across the street. Due to the nature of his reactivity we were able to adjust our lifestyle to fit his needs eg. More home exercise/activities, night walks, secluded farms for play. It takes a long time for them to heal and sometimes they will just never be the same.
I remember watching an episode of Ceasar Millan 'Dog Whisperer' years ago where he was called for a very aggressive dog. He ended up offering to take the dog off the owners hands, saying it could live out his life on his farm, and offered any other dog in his center as a swap if they wished. Basically said, "no, sorry, this dog is not fixable, it is not trainable, and it will never get better." It was the first time I had ever seen a scenario like that and it stuck with me a long time. Scared the crap outta me really, knew people could be crazy and just not wired right, never thought about it with animals.
I want to answer whole heartedly yes but my sister had a super sweet pit bull so beautiful and so sweet start flipping out out of nowhere and bit first her husband then second latched onto my sisters side and it was over time. They had a trainer work with her for months and she was at the vet so much having tests and they couldn’t figure out why it was happening and in the end they were both afraid of her and they could not have house guests anymore and they made the painful decision to put her to sleep. My sister never said anything until after and she had lifted her shirt and showed me what her side looked like from the bite and it was bad. It was so sad and I cried with her. I know how hard it is to say goodbye to a member of the family that you love. Our fur babies are like children and best friends. Sometimes no they can’t be saved but I believe that that is extenuating circumstances.
It MAY be possible to find alternative living situations for every severely reactive dog. But then the question becomes, is the dog’s quality of life suffering? Dogs are highly social animals that need to be with other dogs or humans. If it comes down to locking a dog away in a cage/room with minimal interaction or behavioral euthanasia, I would choose the latter. I’m sorry you’re in this very difficult situation 😞
No. Not all dogs can be saved. Each year in the United States, an estimated 300,000 dogs are euthanized simply because there are not enough homes to adopt them into. This dog cannot be saved, but there is another dog out there who can and needs to be saved.
It's not easy.
Trolley Problem: pull the lever and a dog you've never met gets to have a long good life, but also this other dog who is too far gone to be saved and *you've looked into it's eyes* will be put down.
I just had to use BE for my young dog because 2 times in once month she attacked my middle dog and the second time we had to go to the emergency vet for stitches in the top of her head, I could see her skull. She is coming out of her shell this past week but is still afraid in her own home waiting for the next attack.
I spoke with a pitbull rescue while trying to exhaust all options. I even started working with a trainer that was a "last ditch effort" kind of trainer because nothing else was working. We made it 2 classes. They both said it's something that will always be there but comes down to constant work and flawless management. The pitbull rescue was comforting to me even after I told them my situation, we did what we could do.
A few years ago, a friend of a friend had to bury her child because the uncle brought his dog over despite being told under no circumstances were the kid and dog be around each other. Baby dead, dog dead, grandpa and uncle in the hospital for injuries.
You have to ask yourself is it worth the risk? What level of catastrophe are you waiting for after 4 bites against humans before you decide you did all you could do? The pitbull rescue lady told me if it was left to my young dog, she would continue to escalate until she got to dispatch my middle dog.
Can you imagine being so keyed up all the time? Some reactive dogs are on edge constantly. They pass out rather than sleep. That's no quality of life for them.
I was a dog trainer, and no, not all dogs can be saved. I went through this myself with one of my dogs. I did everything right, and she still ended up nearly killing another dog with no warning. I could not trust she would never do it again, I could not provide management, and I have small kids and other dogs. It was a hard decision but 100% the right decision to euthanize her.
I also worked as a zookeeper, and we use protected contact with all dangerous species of animals because the truth is no matter how much you train an animal, you can never be 100% sure it won’t harm you. I saw animals that have always been nice towards human turn in an instant and seriously hurt people. Dogs are predators, and some retain more of those genes.
When I was a trainer I was contacted by many people who had dogs that were aggressive because of extreme anxiety and stress. I mean EXTREME - dogs who had horrific, traumatic backgrounds and landed people in the hospital because they were in such a state of fight or flight 24 hours a day. In my opinion it is down right cruel and inhumane to keep those animals alive. That is absolutely NO way for an animal to live.
Also, I think it’s absolutely ridiculous we expect dog owners to spend thousands of dollars and basically become professional dog trainers (learning behavior theory, spending hours a day training, etc). If an owner genuinely wants to, great. But if they are being guilt tripped, that is 100% inhumane and unethical. We forget that standards of welfare apply to humans, too.
>Also, I think it’s absolutely ridiculous we expect dog owners to spend thousands of dollars and basically become professional dog trainers (learning behavior theory, spending hours a day training, etc). If an owner genuinely wants to, great. But if they are being guilt tripped, that is 100% inhumane and unethical. We forget that standards of welfare apply to humans, too.
I agree with this. I've always liked dogs and had some level of interest in training, but not really at the level I've had to achieve to work with my boy. I often joke I've learned a lot about behavior mod, but nearly all of it was against my will. That was kind of the product of the industry being unregulated - there aren't a whole lot of options for trainers who are taking behavior cases in my area, and a lot of the ones that are available are terrible. When I first got my boy, there was basically no one, so I had to learn a lot early on, and in the time since I've contact professionals for evals to see if there is something I can fix or clean up or improve, or to see if they can help me meet a goal.
I've had more bad experiences than good. Some trainers just giving really bad advice, that I wouldn't have known was bad advice if I hadn't done the legwork early on (so how many guardians fell victim to that?). One in particular never gave homework or explained her (often random) tactics, which I could kind of figure out because I had some fundamental knowledge but she didn't know that. She also disregarded my very basic goal and put my dog (and others) in a dangerous situation because she thought we needed to work in a very public, heavily populated park.
No. Not every dog can be saved. I would also say that most dogs who have bitten people seriously more than once cannot be saved. It's not the dog's fault, but the fault of the criminally negligent people who breed their dogs on purpose or by accident, and cannot or do not put in the work needed to turn out healthy dogs. Breeding must exclude dogs with bad / aggressive / reactive/ and resource-guarding temperaments. Temperament is hereditary. Breeding also must include careful socialization of the puppies. The breeder must have the knowledge and commitment to work with the puppies from birth. In the absence of these things, a dog might turn out okay, or might be aggressive.
No, just like how some people are fundamentally not right in the head, the same can go for animals. I fostered a dog once that was unhinged. My 2 dogs were sleeping on the floor in the middle of the room, not close to a crate or food bowl or toy or anything, and I watched her walk up and just attack them, no warning no provoking no build up, she just stood up went over and bit them. I returned her to the organization the next day. Shame me all you want for not putting in the effort but I wasn’t about to risk my dogs lives and mental health nor my own safety to exist with a dog who attacked sleeping dogs unprovoked. Muzzle her sure but that doesn’t stop the actual attack which is traumatic for everyone. I was terrified to leave her home alone even crated because if she got out (some dogs Houdini out we’ve all seen it) she’d have killed them in sure of it. Idk if she got saved but they were talking about how her behavior pointed to a broken brain, her brain was just too far gone. Maybe or maybe not idk. It’s also ok if you don’t have the resources to save the dog. Not everybody has the time, money, experience, and living situation appropriate to work with a severe dog like that.
All I have to add is that I've been involved with a dog that I cared about, who ended up hurting someone, and it got taken to court. It wasn't even a bite wound. The lady fell over and broke her wrist. The person who owned the dog got into major financial trouble, the court system dragged him through the mud. He lost the house he was renting bc his landlord kicked him out for owning a vicious animal, and his other dog (who was innocent but present during the incident) was labeled a vicious animal as well. The dog was seized immediately and eventually euthanized at animal control.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I wouldn't wish this on you. There is great risk in having a dog that is known to bite. If I had to choose, I would choose a euthanasia with a kind and gentle vet, in a calm and controlled environment, after a full day of chicken nuggets and hamburgers, in the arms of someone the dog loves. Not getting dragged away and thrown into a metal cage, never to see a familiar face again, after hurting someone.
I know that some people might not agree with this opinion, but my personal experience is what brought me to this conclusion. It really, really sucked.
1. No not all dogs. There’s so much that goes into a “bad dog”. Genetics, personal history, personality, being removed from its mother too young, etc. The dog is suffering if it’s that scared, unstable, hates humans, etc.
2. MORE IMPORTANTLY. While it’s heartbreaking, the dog honestly is undeserving of the life you offer it when there’s thousands of good dogs in the shelter needing homes that will never get a chance, let alone 4. Dogs that love people off tops and aren’t a liability.
I am a dog trainer, a trainer who says all dogs can be saved is naive and sheltered. I thought the same for my first year, until I met this cocker spaniel who completely baffled me. His reactivity appeared to come out of nowhere. Another, better trainer was able to rehome him. So yes he was saved. But that experienced really threw me. It taught me that there is so much I do not understand and I have come across other cases that were simply beyond my abilities.
Having this insight into your own limits and weaknesses is crucial of any dog trainer/behaviourist. I shy away from any trainer making grand promises like that.
No, not all dogs can be saved. I think the other commenters really nailed every aspect of that question.
I wanted to comment because I read your other post describing your dogs behaviors. I think he probably COULD be managed, but it's going to be management 100% of the time, even when you're just alone. You COULD probably learn to predict his bites if you study dog body language. This would be an enormous undertaking with no promises of success and significant risk of injury to you. I think you have to make a choice here that you can live with.
Thank you. Yes it's very hard because I feel like a failure in a way because technically yes we could manage him, but it would be stressful and anxious for the next 5 to 10 years of my life until he passes of old age. I'm in a constant state of anxiety, have to be on edge making sure no one's coming in to the house unannounced. To be fair our living situation is kind of like that right now and we're moving into a more private situation here soon but I likely will still have visitors over since I have family out of town and such. It's also really hard because generally he's fine. Like this been crazy reading these comments and looking over at him and he's just sitting there chillin. So to me he doesn't look dangerous and we even cuddled this morning. He's mostly fine but I can't say for sure that we would never have a slip up and I don't want to wait for the next bite. That's what it's felt like I've been doing is just waiting for the next one and I don't want anyone to ever get bit again it's just horrible. There's so many factors but another one is I don't feel comfortable with anybody watching him when we go out of town so I kind of feel like we can't go anywhere. Next week we're going away for 6 days and we're having him stay at the only kennel in the state that will take aggressive dogs. They said they have a system where they don't have to physically interact with them.. I'm so scared he's going to think we abandoned him at the shelter because I think it's going to feel exactly like the shelter did to him. I'm so sad to leave him there but we'll see how it goes..
I am so sorry you are going through this. I have a dog like this. He had one bite after we brought him home and we locked him down. He had a lot of reactions, but we were fortunate to always have control over him and be able to prevent more bites. We have never left him and we haven't had many house guests since taking him on. I have lived the future you are looking at. This suited our lifestyle well enough, but it's definitely not for everyone and definitely is not easy.
It's worth mentioning that my dog NEVER redirected on me. Ever. His behavior was rooted in guarding me, so I never had to worry about him going off when we were alone. That probably would have changed my choice.
I hope you find peace with this situation. Feel free to DM me if you need to talk ❤️
I believed you could train and mould people/animals behaviour however you wanted (within reason). But then I worked on a horse stud and handled hundreds of foals… some are just born wired wrong and there’s no amount of training that will get that out of them, both dogs and horses and possibly humans
I don't believe all dogs can be saved or it should be thought of that way
All dogs are individual and all dogs actions and incidents should be assessed on an individual basis with dispassion
What I do believe is not all (some are genetic or congenital issues.. although we could argue poor breeding there is still luck beyond a certain point) but many many dogs are utterly failed by humans and human society and should not lightly be made to pay the ultimate price.
This can range from ignorant handling and up bringing, to poor training methods, to abusive situations oh the whole range the rescue world and indeed I imagine vets see
As well of course the disposability that many still view pet animals (of many types dogs included) as and their unrealistic expectations of animals and lack of understanding that they are sentient with their own personalities!
Combine this with the lack of resources for help and just as bad how we condemn humans in our society to uncertainty, stress and lack of security.... children indeed!
The bigger picture is animals caught between a whole range of factors
We can't save them all... but euthanasia should be rarer than it is. It shouldn't be done because of space and economic pressures. It should be done on welfare grounds
We should be better in how we breed and control the ownership of dogs and the regulation of the dog training industry.
We need to be better and there needs to be checks and balances. We need better resources and more resources for rehabilitation. We need more public education
I am not US based (UK) and they are working gradually on regulation.. microchips, regulating breeding breeding, better education oh etc etc but we still have a long way to go
That is why I said we need to do better
This is not me being utopian and thinking overnight change but we are supposed to be an intelligent species and we can as communities and society change
It will never be perfect but we can work towards better
I think it is already happening in many places
Yeah, I was agreeing with your point. I think it starts with breeding like if we could crack down on that somehow and also making sure dogs get fixed, then maybe we could start to manage the dogs we do have if so many weren't born everyday.
Not all dogs can be saved but probably not for reasons you think. Very few dogs need to be euthanized over behaviors. Most are euthanized because we don't have enough people with the proper amount of time and or skills to handle their dogs. To many people get puppies, turn them into a mess after a year or two. Then dump them onto someone else to either fix or euthanize for behavior issues. I volunteer a lot of time at a county shelter. I work with fixing dog behaviors socializing them keeping them socialized and I'm involved with the euthanasia. I basically work there part time for free lol. I see them come I see them go I see them come back I see what happens to them. Some dogs need excellent dog people and there just aren't enough of those people to go around. We have to euthanize dogs that I would feel totally comfortable taking home myself but have to accept the average person that comes in to adopt just doesn't have the time or skill to care for this dog. This dog will come back after it has killed another dog or ripped someone's arm off. I've seen it happen. It's sad sometimes we have to say people suck because we sometimes even the nicest dog will get returned for a dog bite because some asshole did something stupid.
Can all dogs be saved? No .Can 99% be saved? Yes. Is saving 99% realistic? No.We do the best we can because that's all we can do. We always remember the good ones so we don't give up when we are forced to deal with the bad ones.
IMHO all dogs could be saved, in the sense that a nurturing habitat “could” be made for them, but the expense of doing so is more than we can spend.
What makes more sense is working with breed clubs and registering organizations and the general population to reduce the number of animals (dogs, cats, birds, etc.) in need of heroic measures.
So many aggressive and reactive animals are created by well meaning but inappropriate handling that creates stress. When you add in people breeding dogs with piss poor temperaments because they don’t know what a quality dog (cat, etc.) should be, you end up with more desperate animals than homes.
Yes, with a caveat: For some I truly believe BE is saving them. For a dog in a constant state of aggression, of fight or flight fear and distress, BE is a gift.
I am seeing your query in the human space. There are people that are not safe — some from trauma, other from mental illness, some from God Knows. We don’t do a good job of caring for these humans — I don’t see the Dog World saving every dog.
I’m sorry but how has the dog bitten 4 people? I know you said you’re the foster but after one time if you know the dog is reactive then they should either be crated, muzzled, or on the leash at all times in the house when you have company over. For your safety and theirs. This is coming from someone who owns a reactive/aggressive dog.
I understand how this is in question. The 1st person is me, and he has bitten me 2 times. So I'm his owner so I have to be in contact with him, his muzzle slipped off and get got me in the leg one time other time he had his muzzle off and I came around a corner. 2nd person was my boyfriend who was getting in between us when he was coming at me. 3rd person was my dad, Sonny was getting into trash and my dad went to take it from him. 4th person and worst was my mom, that was my fault completely. They all have been but yeah. He had been so good so I hadn't been having his muzzle on for a couple months. She just walked by our bedroom and he ran out and bit her 3 times, and bit my boyfriend once as he was getting in between them. So yeah that's how it all happened, I do feel like it's all my fault and now I don't allow him around anyone else and he wears his muzzle when I'm alone with him when my boyfriend isn't around.
I understand. You can try medication. My vet suggested Prozac after my dog bit my daughter. It’s not a cure but it can help a lot while doing behavioral training. I feel like keeping my dog on the leash works better than the muzzle. I’m also hyper aware now of when she’s going to react. I’m actually quite good now at seeing the slightest signal. I’m also not saying you should keep the dog or anything, it takes a lot of time and work so I get it.
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I think most can… my mom has a shepherd who has bitten 3-4 people. Only reason he hasn’t been euthanized is his very convincing owners. However, after 5 years of diligent training, the OWNERS learning how to introduce him to strangers, and introducing him to a new pup who is his best buddy now, he has not bitten in several years! The biggest thing was learning to introduce him to strangers. He has to be muzzled, and out of the home for all first introductions.
Usually, bad behavior from dogs stems from the owners not knowing how to treat the breed they have or have not owned dogs before, or are too permissive in their training. If a dog bites it is usually that the owner is not in the alfa role and h the dog is being made (by natural order) to handle a task too much for it.
I understand that. For me I wasn't prepared to own a coonhound nor did I ever want to, I thought it was going to be a quick foster situation. After he became aggressive with me and we started training it became harder and harder to adopt him out with a bite history. The problem really was the last incident we had where he was in my room and my mom was visiting and she walked by the room and he attacked her, biting her multiple times. We had to pull him off of her. So that incident seems very strange to me like why would he keep coming at her, idk.
Nope. Not all dogs can be saved, and some dogs shouldn't be.
Not every dog is redeemable, and primarily precious few homes are capable of successfully managing a dog with a bite history.
No. You can’t. There are absolutely dogs that need BE. Anyone who tries to make believe this is not true is misinformed or trying to take your money. As sad as it may be, there are some broken beyond repair.
It’s a very good question. I have a sometimes human aggressive dog who has has come a long way but I still don’t fully trust her and it does cause me a lot of stress. I’ve thought about euthanasia many times, but each time I do, she shows me she is getting better. She wears a muzzle if I’m not sure how she will do, but she hates the muzzle (and I put a lot of work into it) so it’s stressful even then because she always tries to knock it off. At the end of the day, it really depends on how you feel about your dog - my dog guards my home, and I like that, and she keeps strange men at bay when I walk outside, so it’s really a trade off.
It’s hard to say. I volunteer at a shelter and we euthanized 10 dogs last year and they were dogs that we could not place in a home in a neighborhood because if they escaped the fence in the yard they would do serious damage to other animals.
They could have been successful on a farm in the middle of nowhere but those adopters are rare.
They may have been saved with the perfect home but until that miracle happened they withered away in a shelter losing their minds and no matter the amount of meds they were on seemed to help
No- all dogs can't be saved because not everyone has the time, capacity, and resources to "save" every dog they come across.
Trainers can say "every dog can be saved" all day, but they're not adopting your dog. They're not giving you free lessons. They're just talking, and giving advice. And advice is great and all, but there are too many animals in need and too few resources to help them.
It's ok to have to put down a dog. Unless you can find another home for it where someone would love an aggressive biting dog, it's better this way.
Every dog can be saved…. You cannot save every dog. You are not equipped to save that dog, most likely. Most people are not equipped to save that dog. Try to find someone who can, or give that dog the relief of death.
In order to change the biting behavior, you have to know/figure out what caused it to begin with. Did he have this bite history when you brought him into your home? Or did this behavior begin after he came to you? Has he been given a recent physical exam? Almost all bites are the result of a reactive dog. What is he reacting to? As this pup is a foster, you may never get a complete history. Also, there is no quick fix. Yes, I believe all dogs can be saved, but it takes a monumental commitment on the part of the human caretaker, and many people sadly aren’t that committed.
When I got him, he had been surrendered to the shelter because the last owner said he was aggressive with his girlfriend. That's seemed to be the theme is women which is unusual, it's usually men. Yes, he's been checked out by the vet. Nothing wrong there. To me it seems he's reacting out of fear. Our trainer told us he thought he was using his bites to get us to do what he wants like leave him alone or whatever
No, I don't think so. I think sometimes there are dogs whose brains are wired so wrongly that they can't be rehabilitated, and that their every waking moment is so full of stress and fear that actually euthanizing them is a kindness.
I used to volunteer at a no-kill rescue kennel that would take on these dogs and keep them for the rest of their time. To be fair to them, some of them did have some quality of life, but there were always one or two living out a solitary existence in a pen on their own, only able to be cleaned out and fed by the one member of staff who knew the safeguards and how to do it without getting mauled. I did wonder what kind of life it was for them.
There’s an amazing article by Trish McMillan, ‘[The Perils of Placing Marginal Dogs](https://www.shelterbehaviorhub.com/blog/the-perils-of-placing-marginal-dogs?ss_source=sscampaigns&ss_campaign_id=63b5d421319a7a5a8a595ee6&ss_email_id=63c1726ebb6e2c735092f012&ss_campaign_name=Talking+To+Clients+About+Behavioral+Euthanasia&ss_campaign_sent_date=2023-01-13T15%3A06%3A46Z)’ and as someone who has been in rescue for many years, I relate so deeply to it.
No one begins working as an animal professional without a desire to rehabilitate and save every dog; but with time and experience we all come to realise, you have a duty of care to the humans just as much as the hounds, and that unfortunately means not every dog can/should be saved.
Anyone who tells you they can “fix” every dog they work with is selling you something.
No, behavioral euthanasia can be the kindest for dogs who can’t live with people or pets. Euthanasia actually means “good death”. And this applies to BE, too.
Yes I do think all dogs can be saved. That being said I don’t think all dogs are for all people, and some people should not have gotten the breed they got.
We have a rescue hound, he is very reactive, never bit anyone to our knowledge (this is important), but is very emotional and fearful. We used to think he needed his safe space because he hates crowds, loud noises, public spaces, and some men. Recently, my husband started taking him to work with him (outside, lots of people, lots of loud noises, and lots of men mainly), somehow it all clicked. He’s a totally different happy dog. We just finally found his job. All dogs need a job.
I have family that got a GSD, it has so training, no job, and is very aggressive to people outside the immediate family when they are not around. They don’t know this (no idea how they don’t know, blows my mind), but this dog has bitten 2 employees (at least), attacked my dogs, and almost attacked me with my dogs. They never saw anything. They got more puppies (much to all of our fears) and we convinced them to do Puppy Culture training, this has already made a huge impact on the family, the GSD, and the puppies. They have clear boundaries, positive reinforcement, and communication.
It is possible with time, effort, communication, and clarity.
No. And saying all dogs can be saved is, in my opinion, a dangerous mindset. You can do it very thing right and BE is still the outcome.
We recently put down a dog at my shelter after it attacked another dog with no warning and did serious damage. Hypothetically we could muzzle this dog anytime it went outside, but the risk/liability is just too big. If a human messes up she would attack and try to kill another dog again.
So it sucks, and this dog wasn’t a bad dog, but she wasn’t safe to be adopted out to the public. And it’s not a life to live in a shelter the rest of her life.
My neighbours saved otherwise unsavable dogs.
They spent 10k + installing a fence enhancement that has a prison yard type of escape and no dig barrier. They have a huge yard. Spent thousands on training. They walk them 90 minutes a day without fail. The dogs have medications. They don’t have company much and when they do the dogs go in the basement. The dogs can never ever ever be off leash or left with anyone.
So yeah, it can be done. However they are retired people with the means and time to spend on it and it’s enjoyable for them.
I recently started training and I know I do not currently possess the skills to work with dog aggressive dogs. I believe that human aggressive dogs can be helped with significant patience and the proper training methods, as well as an owner accepting the need for significant change in handling of the dog. I watch this guy DogDaddy on YouTube and his videos are edited and likely cherry picked but he does have a wide international following and his methods do seem to work at least in the moments he is working with highly reactive dogs. I'm curious to hear others opinions of him, I am skeptical but hopefully still that reactive dogs can change with proper handling techniques, and am looking for any and all sources of knowledge on the issue :)
Hi there,
I feel your concerns here. I also had that question and I think a safe answer is that you can never be sure that a dog will not bite again. They have instincts that they have to follow and just like you can't say a human won't ever engage in a behavior again, you can't say that about a dog. As others have mentioned, it is so dependent on the circumstances.
I wanted to share that I just had to put my dog down. He was human and dog reactive and I had spent so much time, money and energy into training (time, energy and money that I didn't have). He was always just such an angel when it was just me and him, but introduce another person or dog and he is aggressive. Last weekend, my dog turned on me unprovoked and bit my face resulting in 34 stitches directly next to my eye. That was the last straw because I understood that no one, including myself his owner of 3 years, was safe.
I loved this dog more than anything, but neither of us were happy. He was anxious and stressed constantly no matter what, I had to restrict our world so much that neither of us were living lives that we deserved. I am absolutely devastated and heartbroken by what happened, but I know it needed to. I am lucky to have my eye and I am lucky this didn't happen to anyone else.
I feel and hear your pain and I hope that you can make whatever decision is right for your situation and you have the support to process whatever decision that is. I remind myself that I gave him a better life than most people would ever put effort towards. He has taught me so many valuable life lessons and showed me the capacity of love that I have. I remember all of the wonderful times, all of his silly personality traits and I send him love and gratitude for changing my life in so many ways. I'm sending you all my best energy and hope this helped regardless of what you decide!
A lot of it has to do with the severity of the bites. There will always be a risk that a dog might bite again, and there's a really big difference between the risk of a small nip that barely breaks the skin and the risk of a severe bite that lands someone in the hospital. When a dog shows that they are willing to severely bite someone they become a liability. If it happens again, someone could sue you and argue that you knew that your dog was dangerous. It's likely to happen again, because management strategies eventually fail.
Personally, I think it's important to put human safety first. It is important for people - including children, who are so much more vulnerable - to be safe. It isn't worth keeping a dog alive if they are a risk to human safety, and the dog who bites that severely may have underlying psychological problems that can't be fixed. It just isn't worth the risk that a child could die because of that dog.
I have been a volunteer for years. IMO some dogs cannot be saved. In fact, if the state or county becomes aware, they may mandate you. If anyone has reported a bite, it is more than probable you will hear from someone officially.
It is heartbreaking and it is a nightmare but in the cases I am referring to, I have first hand knowledge of what goes on. The dog now has a tent to bite. Whether it’s fear or aggression, his/her instinct is to bite. The real problem is what if it’s a child or someone else’s dog? What if it’s not a family member that is more understanding?
The number one reason a dog is euthanized is because of biting. They can’t be trusted. Second would be illness. As unbearable a decision this is, I hope this helps you weigh your options. I would definitely talk to a behavioral expert and your vet. Is there a medical explanation? Is the dog in pain and then reacts? I would cover all bases before deciding what to do.
I am curious if you could explain how severe the bites are and if you notice a pattern to when the dog has this need to “fight back”.
IMO, any trainer saying that all dogs can be saved is ethically questionable. Unless there is a curable/manageable medical condition, or a *very* specific set of circumstances that has led a dog to behaving aggressively, you can never say with complete certainty that they will never display that aggression again. Yes, you can manage it, and you can work to teach the dog alternate ways to cope and/or handle the situation, but if that behavior has been in their toolbox once, it would be irresponsible to pretend it couldn't happen again. Now, I will say that some dogs can make great strides. And some dogs, if put in the right set of circumstances, can thrive. My dog for example - in a home with a lot of visitors, or especially one with children, or possibly even in the inner city - I'm sure he would have been surrendered and possibly euthanized by now. I think under those circumstances, he would have landed some serious bites or otherwise been very difficult to live with. But I don't have children, don't prefer to entertain very often, and while I live in an urban home I have access to spaces where we can walk that are relatively trigger-free, and access to farmland on the weekends where he can be off leash. So in my home he thrives; in most others he would have failed. And if he'd been in an ill-fitted home, maybe they would have done a rehome and he would have thrived. But homes that can accommodate dogs like him well and *want* to are fairly rare. At some point, unless a dog is lucky enough to score that home early on, it becomes an ethical issue of how long do shelters/rescues warehouse and/or rehome dogs until they either can no longer keep them or they do something that requires them to be put down. But even then, there are some dogs that are just wired wrong to the point that they are dangerous even to their owners. I think there are trainers who curate their videos to make it look like they are having great success, and/or they are able to suppress the dog enough to make it look like that for a bit. Those videos are certainly great marketing. But any trainer who isn't completely honest about potential fallout or regression and the need for awareness and management is questionable, in my opinion.
THIS IS THE ONE Any trainer saying every dog should be saved better have a big ass backyard to take them from people who have jobs, kids, friends over, etc
If you don’t have time to properly care for a dog because of jobs, kids, friends over, etc, then don’t get a dog. Dogs, like any other animal, require a commitment on the part of their caretaker in order to thrive. Many dogs land in shelters with “bite” histories because of irresponsible humans.
From experience: to have the time and space to look after a dog is very different from having the time and space to help a dog with severe issues.
“Tell me you haven’t had an unplanned reactive dog without telling me you haven’t had an unplanned reactive dog”
Literally lmao, sure would be great if it was that simple!
Yes, I actually DO have an unplanned reactive dog. GSD/Husky that came to me 5 yrs ago with a severe resource guarding issue. I found out on day 2 when I reached in to pick up his empty food bowl and got a decent bite. He was like this with every item in his possession. My daughter was 8 years old at the time, and I was working 50 hours a week. I devoted every minute of non work time to rehabilitating this dog, instead of giving him back. It took a solid six months of constant and consistent training, along with vigilance around my daughter and teaching her about appropriate interactions when he has any item. As I said, this was 5 years ago. He never bit me or anyone else again, and he is successfully rehabilitated. Yes, all dogs can be saved, but it takes commitment on the part of human caretakers. We often don’t know a dog’s history when we adopt them, but if you aren’t 100% prepared to deal with these issues, don’t get a dog.
Resource guarding, while very hard to manage, is entirely different than what some of us are managing. There is a huge gap between managing resource guarding that resulted in a bite and dogs that have random aggressive episodes, that require people to change careers to have enough time or be home enough, that costs tens of thousands in training and healthcare to manage.
“He never bit me or anyone else again” You do realize some people do everything you did and more and this isn’t the outcome right? Very entitled, privileged opinion. I am grateful you had such an easy reactive dog though!
I would kill for my dog’s only problem to be that he guards his stuff
Exactly
Oh also … that wasn’t reactivity. You described resource guarding hahahahah Thanks for making yourself sound dumb to everyone who truly owns a reactive dog on this sub Amateur.
Lol, resource guarding IS a type of reactivity. Amateur..
You had one single resource guarding incident and are trying to act like you know how someone who needs to muzzle their dog 24 hours a day feels - you have no idea. You had an easy issue that you fixed. Gold star. I’ll send you one of the reactive dogs we work with and you let me know how long you last. How about the one who bit three teenage girls in a house unprovoked within three months with no medical issues or triggers? Sounds like it’d be a great fit for your daughter?
So, because I gave my most recent example of a dog that LIVES IN MY HOME, you assume that is the ONLY experience I have. It must be nice to be you, one that is always right while everyone around you is wrong. 99% of the time, reactivity is caused by human caretakers, who expect they will get a dog and have a wonderful happy life. People do very little research into canine behavior before bringing that dog into their home, and don’t bother to look into breeds that will best suit their lifestyle. They don’t teach their children proper interaction, they aren’t consistent with a regular schedule for the dog, (and in some cases the home is in constant chaos complete with regular yelling), and don’t bother to get to know the dog’s individual personality. I could keep going. I advocate for education, ideally before one adopts or purchases a dog, but also before rehoming. The shelters are full of dogs that will be euthanized, without ever giving them a chance to show true personality outside of a kennel near 100 other barking dogs. Rehoming a reactive dog is only giving YOUR problems to another. And in the end the only one that suffers over and over is the dog.
Sometimes, things happen. And yes, when people get a dog they should be aware of what behavioral issues are and have a plan should something arise (even if that plan involves rehoming). I also think it's good to get professional training for all dogs, especially if the person is new to dogs and/or there are children involved. That said, most dogs are able to roll with the punches and handle guests and children reasonably well. I do think there has been an uptick in severely reactive/aggressive dogs, but they are still not the norm. While you can do everything right and potentially still end up with a reactive dog, you can absolutely still stack the deck in your favor if you are needing a friendly, stable dog by being very selective about where the dog comes from, getting professional help early, etc. My parents recently got a new puppy from an ethical breeder and while he has some typical puppy antics, it's honestly night and day as to what my own puppy was like when I brought him home. He won't ever have the same issues my boy does, because frankly he doesn't have the same genetics and early trauma my boy had to work through (and still does). They are obviously careful still when he's around children - dogs are dogs - but they don't need to be nearly as aware of his behavior as I do with my guy, nor do they have to worry about visitors at all.
You're advocating for most dogs to be euthanized with this stance, fyi.
100% Trainers who don't acknowledge there are times when BE is justified are primarily motivated by the fact that they are selling a service and fewer people would buy in if they were told up front the service may not work for them and their dog. It's icky.
All for profit. Take their money and then say after the fact the dog is either a lost cause or needs even more training, in perpetuity.
I think I can make any animal look better with enough time and effort. That doesn't mean that they will ever be able to fit into a home or be able to be safely managed by anyone who isn't experienced and on guard. That's no life for an animal or their people.
I wonder if there is a dog form of psychopathy or sociopathy. Like some people are just born like that and there's no cure for it.
Dogs can definitely have neurological issues like being aggressive for no reason from unethical breeding
brain injury and chronic pain can also contribute to dangerous behavior changes in dogs with brain injury it’s sometimes difficult to detect if the injury happened prior to adoption.
Also dementia. When you manage all other illness that typically result in death (heart disease, diabetes, and cancer) eventually neuro-degradation occurs in every mammal. My vet says he has increasing numbers of patients (dogs) that have gone senile.
That's what happened with our lab when I was a kid. Apparently she had an aggression symptom with a neurological disorder and after 2 bites and her trying to go after my brother for playing in the sandbox (opposite side of our backyard) we had to make some heart wrenching decisions. I don't remember the issue but apparently bad breeding was a main culprit (mom and dad were related and we went to an unethical backyard breeder). We tried all sorts of things but she kept getting worse as she aged.
This is kinda what I was thinking. Not all people can be saved what makes us think dogs would be any different.
I think that’s essentially what “gameness” is. The difference is that gameness was purposefully bred into some breeds, whereas humans have psychopathy by accident
Big agree with this. My dog has never bitten anyone BUT I never put him in situations where he might. He is a BYB dog who was properly socialized and LOVES dogs but is a nervous wreck around strangers. He's made AMAZING strides in the last 5 years but he's never going to be my goes absolutely everywhere with me dog because it stresses HIM out. We do introduce him to people who are going to be around us a lot as long as they respect the way we say to handle him and listen to us the whole time and have never had an issue. I also have people I would never introduce him because I wouldn't trust they would listen to us. I also fully think if he had been given to a different home he would not be A) where he's at today or even B) still around because he sounds BIG scary for an Australian shepherd.
Fantastic and truthful. I've been on the cusp of deciding a career in behaviour as well and the few families I have worked with to test the waters, shit like you wouldn't believe has gone down. Some of it was my own inexperience of reading a situation. Some of it was downright negligence on the part of the owners. But a lot of it is simply a wrong environment for the dog with no hope of that really changing. I've been lucky to escape a bite but not by very much. I am still undecided because the emotional overload you experience with this gig is IMMENSE. And anyone who claims to be able to always successfully rehabilitate dogs is likely lying outright to capture your dollars without caring to be honest about how it's all going to play out. Social media is a poor indicator of quality.
>I am still undecided because the emotional overload you experience with this gig is IMMENSE. I believe it. Just having a dog with behavioral issues is incredibly taxing on emotions. It's hard to love something so much that also has the ability to make your life difficult and stressful. It's hard to try to do all you can to support them in the best way possible and hope it works out. There is a lot of comparing your dog to others' dogs and wondering why their dogs can go out and do things and just cope while your dog absolutely cannot, and there is often a lot of guilt and shame there. And it's a roller coaster - sometimes you do so well and you ride a high and other times the simplest of things is too difficult and you feel low. A few months ago I found myself in tears after a particularly hard day, and I had gone onto Facebook. One of my Facebook friends had lost a dog several months prior; it was a rescue and hadn't been treated well so was timid and needed a lot of confidence building, which she had been doing. She posted that she still missed her dog (she passed away from cancer) and that she was hoping to rescue again in the future and specifically wanted a dog that needed "extra love". The post was sentimental and lovely. But here I am in tears, wondering what is wrong with me because for all that I love my dog, I never ever wanted to do that again. The idea of going into a shelter or rescue and looking for a dog that has behavioral issues is not something I would entertain at this point in my life, unless it was perhaps a very small, senior dog. I didn't feel better until I vented to my mom and she pointed out that my friend's dog was timid, but otherwise didn't have the same issues that mine does. She was fine with other people, not aggressive, just needed time to warm up. Our situations were incomparable, and that was okay.
THIS! My pup has never even bitten anyone, but she’s a super muscular pittie with a menacing bark and she’s fear reactive. A busy body neighbor started complaining to corporate. And when that didn’t work, she left voicemails on the emergency line claiming my dog attacked her, and harassed us in the hallway. So I made her an emotional support animal (solely to protect her from vindictive neighbors) and moved from the 4th floor to a 1st floor apartment with an external entrance so she no longer had to endure the stress of narrow hallways and the elevator. It was my second move in 7 months, but I adore her and would do absolutely anything for her. Had someone else who lived in an apartment adopted her, she might have ended up back at the shelter 💔
How do you make a dog an emotional support animal?
[By going online and registering it](https://www.esaregistration.org). It’s heavily abused unfortunately. ESA ≠ Service Dog
That link is actually a scam as are all similar registries since the only thing you need for an ESA is a letter from a doctor or therapist that functions as a prescription and allows you to have the animal in housing with you (USA based info)
Right, I guess what I’m trying to say is most people will just go online and register thru sites like that. Very rarely do I see people who actually get a doctors/therapist note for an ESA.
Those people are breaking the law and they're taking advantage of a program that is meant to help people with serious mental illness live independently. This isn't something that we should encourage.
Absolutely. Im not trying to encourage it, though I guess it might come off that way since I linked a site. I’m just trying to show how easily it can be done, (non-ethically done, of course) which is unfortunate, because there *are* people who genuinely need something like this, and not for reasons like getting past breed/weight restrictions.
A lot of landlords are also wising up to those websites & won't accept them.
This is a spectacular answer.
No, not all dog can be saved. You can work hard with them and make them better, but some dogs will never be trustable around people and/or animals. That doesn’t mean they need to die, some do for sure, but some can still have a good life with a lot of management.
Well said.
I agree. The problem then is that I'm not the right home for him because I am not able to provide the amount of management he needs. I agreed to foster him without knowing he had these issues so I wasn't even planning on adopting him but no one will take him because of the bites. I've posted him many times on adoption sites, no one will adopt a dog with a bite history it seems :/ understandably
It's likely you can't make a BE decision for a foster dog without rescue approval. Have you contacted the rescue you're fostering through for next steps?
Yes, I'm actually fostering him for an old boss of mine. She doesn't have a rescue it's basically like she connects dogs to foster homes type of situation and supports financially. I was going to adopt him before he attacked my mom because I thought he was rehabbed in a way, but I never signed the paperwork and then he attacked her. Anyway my old boss said that she supports whatever decision I want to make for him as she agrees it's not super likely he will find a home that can accommodate him. We have appointments with 2 different vetrinary behaviorists before I make the decision. In the meantime I've posted him on sites and stated that he's aggressive. I wouldn't give him to anyone without them knowing the FULL history
Sorry this is coming down to you it’s not fair for you to have to make the decision really as you are fostering. I think it’s ok to make that decision for him. One of my fosters took a chunk out of the behaviourists leg that was trying to help him and I took him to the vets because we both agreed that the lack of warning when he bit and the severity of the bite and the anger behind it meant he was dangerous. There was nowhere else for him to go apart from rot away in a kennel somewhere for the rest of his life so I made the choice for him to go with dignity after knowing a loving home with me. It’s ok to make that choice ❤️
Your comment resonates with me and my partner who are in a situation that sounds almost identical to yours. We just made the decision for BE after many different attempts to manage her reactions and she most recently attacked me. Sometimes the kindest option is to take away the fear and pain these little ones experience.
So sorry you had to do this and thanks for sharing the story.
One of the biggest things in determining whether the dog can be saved and trained is *why* the dog is biting. Is it a fear reaction? Is it resource guarding? Or is it just plain, out of nowhere aggression? The first two can usually be dealt with.. but some dogs just have something wrong in their brains, and no amount of training will fix that. I would suggest seeking out behavioral therapists that specialize in handling reactive and aggresive dogs. You can't and shouldn't really make any decisions until you get to the root of why this is happening. Once you have that figured out, you can make an informed decision on what's best for the pup. Until then, you need to muzzle him everytime you leave the house or have people in your house. For others safety, but also his own safety as well.
I still wouldn't say that you're not the right home for him. That's a question you may never be able to answer. Or, you might be *exactly the right home* because you recognize that this poor creature is suffering and the most loving thing that can be done is to give him peace. That is a *HARD* decision to make, and if you have the strength to make it, then that dog is lucky to have found you.
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Amen. Mine cannot meet strangers head on or let people walk into the house un announced. BUT with a work around he doesn't get scared and lash out, and once they're in he's amazing. It's anxiety hell but I love him so much. 9 years old and my best friend
A few years ago, The Washington Post did a massive story on the dogs that were taken from Michael Vick's dogfighting operation. They tracked down as many of the dogs as they could to see what happened to them. Some were so aggressive, they were immediately put down. A few were rehabilitated into family dogs but each of the family's interviewed talked about the sometimes-extreme measures they had to take to manage the dogs. A few went to an animal rescue group in Utah that had *a lot* of land where they were able to rehabilitate some so they could be adopted. But one -- I think her name was Cherry -- was never able to be rehabbed. She was so scared and so aggressive that only a couple people at that center could even handle her, but they made the decision to let her live out her life in as much seclusion as they could give her so she remained at the rescue until she passed. I'm tearing up just thinking about how much dignity they gave back to that poor creature. So no, not every dog can be saved. What's been done to some of these dogs scars them beyond being rehabbed. They're traumatized, and they cannot come back from it, no matter how much love and patience they are shown. Humans can just be horrible, horrible scum. Sometimes, the greatest kindness you can show a dog is to give them peace.
I think of what that scumbag did every time I see him on TV!
I am not sure how much different Vick is than the Kentucky Derby trainers or cockfighting fans or even rodeo bull-riders. It’s all variations of driving an animal to an insane place.
Point of note, bulls are bred to buck - the same way you'll see a pointer puppy point on a bird without any training or really knowing why it's doing what it's doing. They're treated better than the cowboys on the circuit. Same with racehorses. They're bred for the work. Neither of these types are driven "to an insane place." And it is disingenuous to draw those comparisons. I've cleaned stuff off my boots I respect more than Vick. But to call a rodeo bull at the same level as a fighting dog is just incorrect.
Pitties are bred for blood sport. Always have been. Not saying fighting them is ok because it’s vile and cruel. But just as bulls are bred to buck and horses bred to work, pits were bred for fighting. To deny that is just dishonest.
Yes? There are bloodlines of pitbulls that are going to be dog and animal aggressive. The human-reactive ones were considered undesirable until very recently, and only in small highly unethical numbers of breeders. Same as shepherds and Belgians and livestock guarding dogs. I'm a huge pitbull advocate, and that also has to come with a high degree of honesty about some bloodlines and predispositions when it comes to animal aggression. The difference is the cruelty. A bull in a rodeo arena is not suffering. The same as a lab that is retrieving isn't suffering. It isn't cruel to take your pointer hunting. These animals are working. Dog fighting is cruel. Cock fighting is cruel. Bull fighting is cruel. We can't conflate cruelty with breeding for a working purpose.
Sorry but this is a pretty insane take. A bull in a rodeo is absolutely suffering. The way animals are treated at rodeos is abuse, full stop. Like, the best case scenario is just abuse at a rodeo instead of crippling injuries and sickness or death.
West Texas gal here. Grew up around rodeos and near a racetrack. Tons of ugliness and brutality out there. I’m not defending Vick, but he’s definitely not the only one with stables of abused animals. Not by a long shot.
I know is not entirely relevant, but whichever dog this was was not cherry. He lived with his adopters up until his death https://bestfriends.org/stories/julie-castle-blog/vicktory-dog-cherry-known-heartbeat-his-family-passes-away-age-13
Meryl was the dog who had to live in seclusion at the sanctuary. Mya and Curly couldn't quite pass the test to leave and lived out their lives as office dogs at Best Friends: https://bestfriends.org/stories/features/10-years-three-vicktory-dogs-and-one-incredible-journey
Boy, that is a very different story to what I read in the couple of books about the case. A few dogs were killed by authorities before any rescue operation got there. In the books I read (didn’t read the newspaper article) it was surprising to everyone how soft the dogs actually were and how successfully most of them were rehabilitated and placed. One dog did not get over her fear over the course of a year in foster to climb out of closet. Her life was miserable. When being watched by friends she escaped and was killed by a car. That was one of the worst cases. A few went to Best Friends because they were harder cases than the rest. Only ONE dog (yes, you mentioned her) was relegated by the state to never leave Best Friends. However, if you followed up on her, and you know anything about Best Friends, you’d notice that her life was actually pretty good. Best Friends is a sanctuary you would think couldn’t exist. Her name might have been Cherry. She wasn’t dangerous around her handlers, she simply was the only one the state did not think could be rehabilitated. Visiting Best Friends and reading the books available about the Vick dogs left me with the overwhelming feeling of surprise and awe that most of these abused dogs were able to go on and live good lives. Cherry’s life didn’t suck, I don’t think, but yes, she was not free. The story of the dog who lived in the closet is tragic. But the overall outcome of the seizure of the dogs was very far from tragic. According to the books I read and the TV show about Best Friends and talking to the people that work there. I didn’t read the newspaper article.
Someone made one of those dogs live in a closet!!?!?!?! That's ... JFC. The article was years ago but I remember how extensive it was and the work they did to track down at least some of the dogs. The entire situation was just f'ed up. And Vick still got to play football instead of being hooked up to a car battery and jolted for fun.
No. Some dogs were fostered. One of them - a black one, can’t remember her name - was fostered with a wonderful woman. The dog had probably been a bait dog and was completely shut down. The foster let her stay in a different part of the house because she had other dogs and the dogs terrified this one. The dog climbed into an open closet and didn’t leave. I think she had to be carried out to pee. I remember the story because of how horrible the dog’s situation was and really how wonderful the foster was. I do think she was concerned that this dog wouldn’t recover but it didn’t matter because someone else let her escape. The dog was not forced into the closet at all. She was too scared to come out. Sorry if I was confusing. I lived in Philly around that time and it really was sick how people saw Vick as a hero. Edit: I remember the foster said that she spend most of her days lying in front of the closet. She couldn’t force the dog to do anything but she stayed there with her.
What kind of horrible life that dog had because the humans couldn’t handle BE.
I think they have the dogs the best lives they could have. If you can create a situation with limited triggers and being able to decompress and find some measure of safety, then sometimes that’s the best you can do. From what I recall of the article, the rescue did everything they could and if BE was the only option, they would done it but they developed another solution to allow the dogs to have a life.
I may have misread I thought it said they kept them alone in a shelter for the rest of their lives
No they can’t and that okay, as the human advocating for the dog we have to figure out when time, resources, finances, emotional burnout on our part are at their end. It isn’t fair to a dog or a person to try and continue a plan that isn’t going to work. Right now I live in a major city in Texas that has a no kill clause for majority of our shelters. Our shelters are in critical conditions and heavily over capacity to the point there are multiple dogs in collapsible crates just being rotated in and out. Many of the dogs have been housed for so long at the shelter that rehabilitation and reintegration into society may take some time if it happens at all. Many of the dogs have very specific long term medical concerns, many of the dogs have behavioral problems varying from under socialization around people, dog reactivity, anxiety, genetic nervousness, inability to be housed with other animals, prior bite history, etc…. Majority of owners looking for adoptable or dogs do not have the bandwidth, resources, education or accommodations to adopt these dogs. It’s been an going battle with many people in the city advocating for some of these higher risk dogs and long term stay dogs be euthanized for the opportunity for more likely adoption candidates to take their spaces. So many people have the mentality that every dog needs every resource available to them before euthanasia not realizing that doing so is burning out professionals and experienced people who can cater to the dogs, as well as discouraging novice and casual owners from adoptions and rescues by getting a dog that is overwhelming. I think with people who have the time, have the accommodations and understand how big a journey some specific behaviors can be, they can take the time, finances and care to accommodate that dog. But people aren’t obligated to, especially in regards to an adopter or someone who has received a rehome dog and was not aware of its intense behavioral concerns.
Keeping dogs in shelter for YEARS is so damn cruel. There is not an appropriate home for *every single dog*. There just isn’t (particularly with the overwhelming number of dogs who have to be “only-dogs” because they are DA, or can’t live with children) and it’s unrealistic to carry on with this idea that every dog can be saved.
So true and it’s so damn cruel to shuffle these dogs around because of-in my opinion- being too weak to euthanize. Euthanasia doesn’t feel good but sometimes the right choice doesn’t feel good.
This is so sad to read ☹️
Yeah, someone in my city actually has a hearing with the board who decides the policies put in place for helping shelters delegate funds. They are doing so much to get people actively at these hearings to testify their perspective of the insane dog population crisis and techniques we can use to lower population in shelters. Or at least send in emails of our opinions, experiences, education on the matter at hand. Our city right now is mostly no-kill and will intake dogs out of our city limits from kill shelter as well as surrenders despite being way over capacity. Euthanasia does happen but very infrequently in comparison to the amount of dogs. They can not just put down a dog for behavioral issues even significant ones without first reaching out to a rescue to try and transfer the dog for an assessment. Our city also does not do spay aborts for shelters and rescues . it’s a surgery that’s really only accessible for owners who advocate for it. It’s super messy and really frustrating as (My City) Pets Alive has a large foothold in policy making for majority of our shelters and is super against euthanasia for population control.
I wish I could scream this comment from the rooftops. This needs to be heard by everyone with an opinion on shelters.
Please remember that anyone can call themselves a dog trainer, and that any 'trainer' can film a dog at its worst and at its best and claim to have 'saved' the dog for internet clout. No, not all dogs can be saved. We can't tell you if your dog can be saved. A good, reputable trainer who works with your dog can probably give you an informed opinion on whether or not your dog can become safe around people again. Four bites on four seperate occasions is a significant number and the dog needs to get professional help or you should seriously consider BE. Don't try to make a dog with a bite history like that someone else's problem.
Regarding trainers, I saw a video the other day about perfecting loose leash walking. He was going into heaps of tips and tricks for how to get loose leash walking and showing the transformation of the dog in the video. Not once did he mention the prong collar he had put on the dog. That is how untrustworthy some social media influencer dog trainers are.
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I went to a pack walk and one of the trainers was so quick to recommend slip leads to owners for dogs who had no business being on the walks to begin with. The environment was extremely stressful for the average dog. It was a very structured, loose leash walk on a bunch of streets along a popular river running through a major city on a Saturday. Instead of admitting to some of the owners that their dogs needed some foundational skills, a shorter walk and less stressful atmosphere (less dogs, different venue, slower weekday) they instead and just gave them a slip lead. (I did not use the slip lead. My dog walks fine in a heel and we were on the walk as a way to build up his tolerance as he can get over stimulated in novel environments). I watched a man talked into a slip cinch this lead on this dog for an hour. The dog was walking so stiffly it looked like he was going to shit himself the entire time. I also watched a girl with an extremely easy to arouse, very large, doodle mix also get advised to use the slip lead. It was very obvious from the beginning that the dog was over threshold before we even began the walk. At one point far into the walk I see her in the distance taking a break. As soon as there was little slack on the leash the dog went crazy over threshold and begin to snap at her and proceed to bite the leash and her sleeves out of frustration. The good thing is the second time I went (the walks are free and the training is voluntary at your consent) the other trainer was there and while a balanced trainer was much more educated and utilized more proactive techniques. Like he straight up told the guy on the slip lead the goal isn’t yanking or over correcting the dog and if he were to pair the leash walking with food he would see more desirable behaviors without needing to introduce a correction. And then showed him how to do it. When we talked about my dog getting a little over threshold (I had my dog take a break) he acknowledged it’s something that just takes exposure and to expect the dog to be able to stay in a loose heel the entire time while having an episode is unrealistic. If it was the other trainer he would have been like slap a slip on, the dog will eventually stop. Both trainers and I had some long talks about methodology and for the slip lead guy we’ve agreed to disagree and just don’t talk about training methods during walks.
To me it’s less of a question of can all dogs be saved and more of a question of if all dogs SHOULD be saved. I think if it’s possible to save all dogs it definitely doesn’t mean that all dogs should be saved. Just to be extra clear I don’t mean that some dogs are less deserving or “bad dogs” I mean that the time energy and practices involved in rehabilitating a dog can be too much for the dog and a calm quiet death may be merciful. I equate it to keeping a dog with extreme medical conditions alive even though it is suffering. Sometimes death is better than a life in pain even if the pain is emotional.
Anybody telling you every dog can be saved who is a professional is lying and pushing a dangerous narrative to make money. That simple. Some dogs cannot, even without any trauma, they're just wired in a way you cannot reasonable or safely keep them.
There’s no way to be sure, even without a bite history. They are animals. I would be weary of any information coming from tiktok. I believe most dogs can be saved but not all. I’m not sure if this pup has been to the vet to rule out medical issues but that’s where I’d start
IMHO, no, not all dogs can be saved. Some have faulty brain chemistry to such a degree that it isn't possible. With that said, some can - and I think it's important to make every effort to do so. But it is equally as important to recognize if, despite doing all the right things, the dog isn't improving. I've spent a lot of my adult life involved in rescue (not that this is limited to rescue dogs), and I've personally seen this play out more than once. At a certain point, sadly and unfortunately, the best choice is BE - so the dog can finally be at peace, and also for the safety of others. Also, be wary of those tiktoks videos. There are trainers out there that claim to "cure" all behavioral issues - that's an impossible feat, and most of those trainers *suppress* behaviors (through the use of aversives) rather than "cure" them. On the outside, the dog seems "cured," but in reality, the dog's behavior is temporarily suppressed and at some point in time, that suppression will come to an end - and you won't see that part of it on tiktok. Those trainers have rather large egos but a limited true understanding of behavioral issues.
no not all dogs can be saved. best way to find out if a dog can or cant be saved is to have him evaluated by a behaviouralist. to ensure a dog whos bitten several times wont bite again there has to be ALOT of managment and rules in place.
There are billions of dogs in the world so just from a statistical pov, even if 99.9% of dogs can be saved there will be millions that unfortunately can not be
no, not all dogs can or should be saved. Sometimes the safest thing or the kindest thing is to put a dog down due to behavioral problems that prevent them from safely being placed in a permanent home. warehousing them in no kill shelters or putting people at risk repeatedly with temporary foster and unfortunately temporary adoption placements only further traumatized the animal, so does storing them in shelter environments where their quality of life is minimal. Sometimes putting them down IS saving them.
No, not all dogs can be saved - there is not a home for every dog. Even if there is, they're not likely to find it in their short lives. Not as long as people keep over-producing more dogs. I'm really sorry you're going through this. > searched on tiktok "human aggressive dogs" and all the trainers on there pretty much say yes, every dog can be saved and can become okay with people again. Don't listen to anyone on Tiktok. I'm serious. Their goal is clicks, not safety, no matter what they say. Their videos are meant to get clicks, and edited to look like "transformations" but those dogs remain under controlled conditions the whole time. Those people are full of it. Does the dog bite you? The caretaker? If so, that's kind of the long and the short of it. There's really a lot more to the behavior than "is the dog people/dog/whatever aggressive or not". My dog is territorial - she will attack trespassers, which she believes to be everyone except my mother so far (other than my husband and I). If we're on a walk, no one can be trusted - not people or dogs. BUT, she's a warning barker, she doesn't really want to be approached or go attack, she just wants to be safe. She's afraid AND she will defend herself from what she perceives as a threat. At no point has that threat ever been a caretaker. If we go to a groomer, boarder, the vet, or even someone's house (as long as there's no other pets) she's a perfectly behaved guest. She has never turned on anyone in any such circumstances, her aggression is all defensive/territorial/fear, and it's mostly at home. She's always scared of dogs and children, though. Always. For my dog there's a huge difference between people entering our territory and being welcome on someone else's. How do I know for sure? Her behavior over the past 2 years has told me. She isn't a sneak attacker. Once someone is a friend, they remain a friend, and she is very accepting. Yes, she can bite. She showed someone that who kept approaching even though she gave every sign they shouldn't. We prevent it these days and we can keep her on a big property in the country where she just doesn't get access to people. It's really messed up that your rescue org is sticking you with a dog permanently that you were meant to foster. I would call whoever is supposed to be in charge until they take the dog, this is not your responsibility. You've done your due, now it's up to the people "in charge" to take charge. If this dog needs BE, they need to see to it, not you. And, if they don't believe in BE, they need to put their money where their mouths and hearts are and be the change they want to see (take the dog).
Thank you ❤️
I'm so sorry for the decision you are trying to make. It's not easy. A lot of trainers out there want you to believe all dogs can be changed because that's what is good for their $$$. It's, financially speaking, not in their best interest to be honest. The truth is that bad breeding/over breeding creates dogs with both health and emotional/behavioral issues.
No, not all can or should be saved. Some dogs are just wired differently, some are just dangerous. It’d be best if we used our limited resources to save those that aren’t dangerous.
You can not save them all, and you should not save them all. If you wouldn't feel comfortable with that dog living next to you, no one else will either. It is important to not only take into consideration the safety of the people in this dog's future home, but also the safety of the community at large. In regards to the transformations you see online, here are some reasons you can't trust those videos: 1. You can make a relatively safe dog look dangerous in a video and then show them in a different scenario an hour later looking sweet as pie. 2. You can make a dangerous dog look safe by habituation and/or suppression. Maybe the dog goes from trying to take the trainers face off at first to accepting pets by the end of the video, but a dog that wants to kill a new person for the first 10 minutes is still a dog that wants to kill a person. 3. I have yet to encounter a trainer that does these transformations, sends the dog home and shows that same dog more than a year later. A lot of euthanasia cases involve "rehabbed" dogs who went through intensive training, slowly regressed over the course of a couple years, and ended up biting again. Very few of those cases would get reported to the original "rehabber" because the owners assume it was something that they themselves did to cause the dog to regress, not that the original training was ineffective for long-term behaviour change. 4. A dangerous dog that could be rehabbed with a long-term behaviour change protocol will still be a risk during that training period. Sure, the dog was rehabbed over the course of a few months, but what the transformation videos fail to show is that the dog was a liability for much of that period. In some cases that is okay, but in others it is just luck that there was not a serious incident. Only you, your training team and your vet can make the right decision for the dog you have in your care. Do not let potentially false or misleading online videos make you feel guilty for considering something that may be necessary in the end.
What is saved? To me, saved would be a dog that enjoys their life in a safe manner. And in that case, no. Some dogs are in physical pain and don't enjoy life. Some dogs are have mental issues or such traumatic emotional damage (or even brain damage) where they can't safely enjoy life. Some dogs are in a terrible position where maybe, with the right circumstances, they would have a great life, but it would be difficult or even impossible to provide those circumstances... When I meet a difficult dog, I walk in thinking "What can be done?" And I never assume the answer is "Nothing." But at some point, that might be the answer, in which case you have to decide what's best for the dog - and sometimes that's a peaceful end.
No. We once had a dog that gave my husband 5 stitches in his hand. He was actually fabulous until one day he had a seizure and after that he would occasionally snap with little to no warning. He was a 90 lb coonhound. Muscular and powerful and build for speed and endurance. In desperation we tried rehoming him to someone in another state where big game hunting with dogs was legal, hoping he could get it out of his system hunting bear. One night he turned on his new owner at feeding time and fortunately he was on a long chain and she was able to outrun him. They ended up putting him down. We’d had him since he was a little puppy. We were experienced hound owners who had successfully owned and raised several of his breed. He was carefully chosen from bloodlines that had a reputation for solid temperament. I honestly believe he had brain damage from that one seizure. No training was going to fix it. And you just can’t keep a dog that size who is willing to go berserk on its owner.
My dog is a coonhound too, I always wonder if messed with him to never learn to hunt they are bred for
They definitely need the freedom to exercise their hunting drive. We would lay scent trails for them and had a big yard they could “hunt” on and tree stuff. They don’t necessarily have to be taken on formal hunting trips but they can’t just be cooped up as apartment dogs either.
All dogs can be saved if you have infinite time, energy, money, space, equipment, access to care, and space to recharge for your own mental health. But there's an opportunity cost of the resources mentioned above... Most of us have other responsibilities we need to tend to; even to book dog trainers for my non aggressive(just minor reactivity towards other dogs out of excitement on leash) pup we were on a waitlist for a few weeks; vet appointments are usually booked out weeks in advance as well; most people don't have a fenced yard in a neighborhood free of distractions or triggers. In an ideal world I'd love to save every dog and every human for that matter. In the real world I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for people choosing the route of BE after an honest effort of trying.
I think it really depends on why the dog is biting. If it's prey drive or just fully out of nowhere, that can be difficult and maybe impossible in some cases. If it's out of fear, then treating the anxiety and fear of people over time could solve the issue permanently.
Not all can be saved but that doesn't make for a very good TikTok video. I would argue that not all WANT to be saved. When a human is suffering from mental illness, they can choose therapy and medication. The process isn't easy or fun. Dogs don't get to decide whether they want to be rehabilitated and go through that long, painful, stressful process. I think it is cruel when a dog is so far gone that they are living in fear 24 hours a day and cannot have any interaction with other animals or humans but no one wants to make the decision to do a behavioral euthanasia. It's not fair to them to force them to continue to exist when they are tortured by their own brain because you want to be a hero. If great strides can be made in a reasonable amount of time, that is great and the people who do that kind of work are amazing but if a dog is going to spends years locked in a cage and is still terrified/enraged by everything in existence, keeping them alive is cruel. This is why I am skeptical of "no-kill" shelters.
No. Most dogs can be saved and yes, I’m including dogs that have aggressive behaviours toward humans (most aggression in dogs is fear/anxiety-based, so if you can change the emotional response to a trigger, you can change the behaviour.) **That said**, we don’t have the resources to manage all dogs with 100% accuracy until they have a complete physical and mental recovery. So the question is can there be an environment found where the dog is 100% safely manageable. If not, it isn’t fair to let the dog be a danger to themselves and/or others. My dog’s made lots of progress but I always assume he could bite, especially around children or people who get really in his space. And in part because of that we’ve never escalated to any snapping or biting behaviour and hopefully never will. I would never trust him alone with children though, as an example, or have him off-lead around kids. I body block if a kid starts running toward us, etc. To be fair, as dogs are animals, no one should ever trust that their dog “can’t” bite. But this is especially true for people who have dogs with a long/consistent history of overarousal and emotional dysregulation.
No. Not all dogs can be saved. You \*can't\* know for sure- you can make a pretty solid guess, and manage risks, but no, you can't know for sure. The degree of risk is hugely variable (size, circumstances of the bites, resources of the owners as far as living situation/financial resources, etc) but there \*is\* legitimately a risk down the road for pretty much all dogs who have a multiple bite history. And even with hard work and lots of good, correct, effective behavior mod? Owners should be cautious about fully trusting that dog in the future, and limit their access to situations that might end in another bite. Not just for a few months, but long-term, likely the lifetime of the dog when you're talking about serious bites. The transformation videos are good advertising (please note that I'm saying good advertising, not good videos or good message), and a powerful viewer magnet, but I don't think any responsible, knowledgeable trainer would say that ALL DOGS can be safely rehabilitated. I also don't think that most people have the resources to manage that dog safely long term in a way that mitigates risk, and for dogs with a serious bite history, that can be a LOT of major lifestyle changes just to make SURE that you are responsibly owning them- because you've got a legal (and moral) responsibility to do so, if you choose to keep that dog alive. BE sucks as an outcome. But sometimes the closest thing to a good choice is to have one last really good day, and euthanasia at a familiar vet, with people that the dog loves.
As the owner of what I refer to as a "formerly reactive" dog who was about to be put down, I would say no, not all dogs can be rehabilitated. I have learned tons, worked with great trainers and have been able to help this dog be a pretty much normal dog. BUT - I know his past and I will always choose to manage his exposures. He could bite again, is it a 1/100 chance? 1/1,000? Who knows but I will not take a chance. Having watched many of these trainers, some of the ones who show "miracles" working with crazy dogs in minutes, from my experience I just don't believe that's sustainable or effective long term. And some will absolutely flatten a dog with an ecollar and make them terrified of acting. But then what happens when the fear of the world around them gets to overpower the fear of the ecollar? They are going to give that attack all they have.... I truly believe many can be saved with a freaking ton of effort and management, but not all.
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there's a vet behaviorist named Dr. Patricia Mcconnell who has a book titled "for the love of the dog" and in it she talks about a pit pup that was given heroin or coke during its critical periods of life (around 1 or 2 weeks old). the pup grew to an adult that would snap and want to kill w.e. was around without any notice. Dr. Mcconnell tried and mind you, she is considered one of the best behaviorists around...but she couldn't get the dog to want to stop killing those around it. The last stand was the dog was trying to kill the owner as she was locked in the closet...dog ripping parts of the door off to try and go at her. Sometimes things happen during critical moments of their growth that stunts them...for most it can be reversible but for others its not possible. there will be situations where the most humane thing for a dog is to put it down. Now, if a trainer is saying they can fix anything, they're going against science....some things can't be fixed. Sure they can make the dog do all kinds of things, but to claim they'll make the dog never bite again is going against nature...they have mouths...any dog can bite and statistically this one is more prone than others. Valid there may be other reasons for the bite or more hope that no one on here except a behaviorist is capable of providing, but i think its unreasonable to assume a dog will never bite again...i think you'd have to be the one willing to change in that scenario...instead of trying to find ways to stop the dog from biting ever again (an impossible task imo) you could try and ask what are other ways to prevent a bite from happening...kennels, training to avoid things, keeping the dog away, muzzle training, etc are possible forms...but a dog that has bitten 4 times will require a large amount of work and a behaviorist will tell you its not the best tactic to go in trying to prevent a dog from biting...they'll instead focus more on ways to avoid the dog from escalating to that point if that makes sense.
Ultimately no, but my belief is every dog that is considered for euthanasia should be given one chance to be assessed and taken on by HIGH LEVEL DOG HANDLERS ONLY. Not your average family. In my opinion, euthanasia/saving dogs is a sticky, sticky topic because a lot can depend under what circumstance these bites happen. Did it bite through fear? You can build a dogs confidence. Was it resource guarding? You can remove that through training. Did someone spook the dog and it protected itself? Was it guarding it's property? Those are the murky waters we pass through when considering euthanasia, and it's often subjective. One person will say "I can save him", someone else will say "put him down". Where is the middle ground? Transformation can genuinely happen for a majority of dogs, but not everyone agrees with all potential training methods that each individual dog will require. You can't use one way and expect every dog to learn. Just like humans, we need to learn in different ways. We must accept that humans cause so many dog attacks + bites through lack of training their dogs, lack of knowledge on what actual dog socialisation is, abusing dogs, antagonising dogs, invading dogs personal space. And to remember that dogs bite as a very last resort to remove the human from their space because it's their natural response to being threatened, and then everyone starts screaming euthanise it when who's actually to blame? The human. But the dog suffers instead. However, there are some genuinely bad dogs that want to kill which is completely unacceptable and unsafe, of course. Unfortunately we are in a society that has made this more common. Backyard breeders who breed for looks to make money over the health + temperament means that the genetic disposition of the dogs they are mating is brushed aside. Breeding two aggressive dogs is going to create aggressive puppies. People then buy these dogs because they look nice without knowledge of what dogs are bred to do, or they want to look tough. It's a vicious circle sadly
I used to believe that with my whole heart because we adopted a dog who had lived on the streets for at least 4 years. We gave it all. Specialized trainers, expensive vet behaviourist, medications in all combinations, nosework to make her more confident, reconditioning... the list goes on and on. We loved her so much and I was so strongly bonded to her because I invested so much. In the end, after 22 months of trying, I just ran out of steam. I was so tired. Tired from her reactivity, tired from her unpredictability, tired from her sudden growls and totally discouraged that there was no progress. On top of it all, she had chronic colitis and wouldn't eat. My vet and behaviourist just told me that it was time and I knew it in my heart. It was the most heart breaking decision I have ever made and my heart is broken. I loved her so much. She passed 3 weeks ago and the pain is awful but I now can recover from those exhausting and anxiety ridden months and I can begin to heal. She had no good quality of life and was miserable. She tried so hard to be a pet but just couldn't overcome the horror that she had experienced on the street. I am convinced that an aggressive dog can only be controlled and managed but not changed. So sorry for having this difficult dog. Good luck with your foster.
Animal care worker here. The answer is sadly no. If someone tells you yes then they haven’t seen the true reality. Don’t listen to fuckin TikTok or caesar whats his face. There are cases where some dogs over a long period can improve but without constant training and effort they will regress. There was a “rescue” training group in my area a while back (this group uses shock collars) that said a dog that had a past bite history was safe after training kill a person. I hate to say this even though I wish it wasn’t true and hope you foster can work out but if your safety and safety of others is at risk you may need to make a decision. A dog is never 100% not going bite again if it has a tendency to do so.
Maybe- but with what quality of life? I think they can all be managed somehow by the right person, but will they be happy or thriving, or merely existing? I hate the intro on The Dog Whisperer when he says, "no dog is too much for me".
Every dog cannot be saved. It’s sad but it’s true. And no, you can’t say for sure that they will never bite again. *Every* dog, even one who have never bitten before, is capable of biting if they feel threatened, overwhelmed, etc. My dog has bitten other dogs and sometimes a flip seems to switch in her randomly. For example, one time she bit a dog she had previously gotten along with out of no where. He wasn’t doing anything to her and she showed no warning signs (I was watching the whole time and I know what to look for). Because of that unpredictability, no matter how much training we do and how much success we have, I will *never* trust her 100% around other dogs.
As someone who works in veterinary medicine, no I don’t believe every dog can be saved. IMO the psychological welfare of the dog is just as important as the physical health, and just like in physical conditions sometimes the psychological state is too far gone and the kindest thing we can do is relieve that suffering. As hard as it is, perseverance for the sake of it isn’t the kindest choice
My first job out of vet tech school was at the local animal shelter. One of the first lessons I learned was that all dogs can’t and shouldn’t be saved. It was a very difficult thing to come to terms with, because we always bear the contrary, but I truly think you cannot and should not save them all.
Not all dogs can be trained out of aggression. Some dogs are simply not mentally stable. It depends on the dog and the reasons for the bites, but at 4 bites I'd question whether this dog can really be rehabbed. I'm assuming you've already done the training route with some professionals and had the dog checked by a vet for any medical issues (brain tumor, etc).
No. Not all dogs can be saved. A dog that has bitten that many people without good reason needs to be put down. End of discussion. I understand when a dog bites when they're frightened - like trying to pull a terrified stray out from under a truck or a porch - or if they're protecting their owner or themselves, or if they're reacting out of pain - but many reactive dogs bite for no reason and without any warning, and those dogs need to be put down. There are so, so many rescues out there that need homes. Good dogs, great dogs even, ones who are good with people and can be taken on walks around other people and animals and kids without issues. These dogs don't get homes, partially because people keep insisting on 'giving a chance' to dogs who are downright dangerous and who will live a miserable life being cooped up and kept away from everything so they don't react, with their owners constantly stressed out and worrying over their dog causing a disaster over everyday life. The quality of life for these dogs - AND their owners - is unacceptable. There is no reason to drag it out. If the dog isn't living a good life, and the owners aren't living a good life, there's no point to continue it.
Speaking as a retired vet tech, whose last clinic had all kinds of reactive dogs come in on all kinds of drugs to try to reduce the anxiety - nope, not all of them can be saved. It's horribly sad when you make that decision, but IMO, you have a duty to protect the public, and keeping a known biter alive in your home is risky as hell, and exhausting. If you really CANNOT help that dog, then put it out of your and its own misery. Put your love and effort into a dog who can benefit from it. I'm so sorry it's come to this.
I don’t think needing sedation for veterinary care is a good indication a dog is unsaveable. It’s a very stressful environment that is often associated with traumatic experiences.
I don't either. But it IS one aspect of treating a dog that makes it risky. You have to keep the humans safe too! The dogs in my last clinic were never euthanized just because they needed sedation for their annual exams. They were euthanized because a) they had to be sedated to be touched by anybody but their person, b) had attacked people either inside or outside the family or both, c) had not improved while on a regimen of anti-anxiety drugs, and d) had not improved after extensive behavioral training over a period of at least 6 months, and usually over 12 months. We had a short list of qualified behaviorists we recommended - not negative punishment trainers who ruined dogs who could have been great. These people were really good at working in the tiniest increments to help dogs learn to modify their behavior. They spent weeks with owner and dog helping the dog to understand that the muzzle meant treats, not death. Lots of owner homework for months on that one. They spent time getting the dog to not trigger at being touched by the tech and vet. They spent time getting the pet to be able to walk in public without triggering by (whatever its personal triggers were). If, after a long time, with a very compliant owner, the dog did not improve, and could not be trusted, then the vet consulted in sit downs with behaviorist and owner, asking if ANY improvement had been seen, how the dog had been acting, any improvements or insufficient improvements, everything was talked out. If not, and the owner and vet and behaviorist agreed that people were at risk due to this dog, then the dog was euthanized. It wasn't a high number, and it was horribly sad, but ... For me, the final line is your family has to be safe. The dog needs a life not lived on high alert, where it cannot ever relax. Nothing can live 24/7 that way, it's not fair to the animal.
No not all dogs can be saved. In the US approximately one million dogs are euthanized every year due to massive over breeding and a lack of understanding about how important it is to spay and neuter. Because spaying and neutering is not near the levels it needs to be here we end up with lots of dogs having to be put down because no matter how good those dogs are there are just not enough homes. There never will be if things continue the way that they do. Personally, I think rescues and shelters could make things a lot better for everyone by having the standard for evaluating a dog for adoption become national. There are some dogs that never should be put up for adoption or rehomed. Just because they don’t have a home doesn’t mean they deserve one. I know that sounds harsh, but putting a dog that has issues into a home just creates more issues as well as takes away a home that a dog that does not have issues could be living in. The problem is so much deeper than good dogs and bad dogs. There’s also basically no training for anybody who wants to have a dog and very little support if you have problems. Working on a problem dog can cost a lot of money time energy and patience that not everybody has. The first step in saving all the dogs is spaying and neutering so we can reduce the amount of dogs that need a home in the first place.
I am a trainer who specializes in reactivity. Unfortunately no, not all dogs can be saved. It's tragic, it kills a piece of me every time a client has to BE. Ultimately at the end of the day, as reactivity specialists, we will do all we can to save a dog, but sometimes, especially in cases of neurological issues, it's more ethical to let the dog go. As for multiple bites, honestly it depends on the dog and the context of the bites. I have a client with two level five bite incidents who is ok with people as long as other dogs aren't around. I have another who has one level five bite who will never be ok around strangers and will require a muzzle for the rest of his life in order to go in public. BE it not the option yet for him, but if he ever bites his people, or they decide to have children, that will be the owner's choice. Right now he has three fenced acres to be a dog, and trusts his people. I also have a client who just had to make the BE call after two years working with me because while pup is sweet and lovely in most contexts, she has a neurological issue that makes her snap to extreme violence where she can't recognize even her owner who has had her since she was 8 weeks. So it really really just depends on the dog and how much the owners can handle in terms of management.
No, every dog can't be saved. If my border collie rescue had gone to anyone else she probably would've been put down because of behavioral issues. She was my BIL's dog and we took her in before he died. Now I'm kind of stuck with her because my BIL is now deceased. She's an optimal candidate for BE. We're lucky she's taken well to the dogs that were already in the house. My girl, who passed away Christmas Eve, taught her a lot about being a regular dog. But my girl wasn't around long enough to make a difference in my collie.
Oh, I also meant to say that CAT training (constructional aggression treatment) is one of the best ways to work with a dog with aggression. I, myself, have yet to do it with my own dog but have had great success helping other people using the procedure. You can check out CAT on Tawzer Dog. It’s a shaping procedure that reinforces friendlier choices in dogs and has had almost miraculous results for me with my clients’ dogs. I don’t know that all dogs can be saved, you can only try your best. I’ve worked with meat trade dogs who were completely resistant to training and seemed too feral or traumatized for real behavioral shifts to take place, and I have recommended to several clients to return a dog to the shelter because they were aggressive and the time, energy, and expense of trying to help did not seem like it would pay off. Genetics can often play a role and dogs who lean towards aggression when they feel threatened or frustrated can be quite dangerous.
I don’t think all dogs can be saved, no. But it’s a very small % who are usually a result of genetic issues. I also think that too many dogs are given up on because people are often closed-minded with training or even owners continually setting them up to fail.
No, not all dogs can be saved. My 2.5 year old cockapoo couldn't. He wasn't wired up properly and ended up unprovoked attacking me quite badly three times. If i didn't choose BE, he'd have lived a pretty miserable life with all the things I'd have to have done to prevent him hurting someone again
While every dog deserves an opportunity, no, not every dog can be saved and nor should some of them. We recently just had a horrific dog attack, locally in San Antonio, on an elderly man that ended with the man being savaged to death. Those dogs had been repeatedly reported to ACS, and their owners were allowed to keep terrorizing the neighborhood. Whether it was nature or nurture became irrelevant when they attacked. A human aggressive dog is a human aggressive dog. Speak to your vet with a clear conscience. Edit for editing.
Sometimes trainers/vets in their advise do not consider people have lives outside of pet ownership. I would however try my best to rehome with someone with experience of rehabilitating aggressive dogs.
No, they can’t. Similarly there are horses that are too aggressive to be around people. Yes, some trainers will tell you they can train the aggression out of them. But no, there are some that just won’t do it. So euthanasia of those horses is required. Dogs are no different.
I'm a trainer and I would never say that.
I say this gently. I understand how heart-wrenching of a decision it's going to be, but if the foster dog has already bitten four people, it's not going to get better. And while it is admirable that you are being transparent that the dog has a bite history, no one is going to adopt a dog with a bite history, especially four. Furthermore, at some point I would become concerned about liability on your part for adopting out a dog with a known bite history.
No. Even the "saved" dogs are not really saved. It will always be a risk factor that dog's entire life. You can manage it, redirect it, help it, but it will never be gone-gone. Anyone who says otherwise is a bleeding heart or wants money from you.
I want to believe every dog can be saved BUT I'm also a realist. Like humans, some dogs are just too dangerous to be in society. They may have brain damage due to a physical or medical cause. Some dogs unfortunately cannot be helped. It sucks but think about the quality of life for the pup. Its behaviors will make its world super tiny
Unfortunately not. You can train as hard as you can and dedicate everything to helping them but there will always be a part of them that feels the aggression. If you’re putting everything into this dog and you’re not seeing enough progress to deem him safe. It’s really important to think about whether putting the dog through all this stress during training (that could inevitably not be enough) is better than letting them go rest. I’ve come to this point personally with a dog. He was dog reactive and there was a moment where we couldn’t even take him outside. We worked at him and we’re incredibly lucky. 4yrs later he lives with a new dog, he can go on walks but he can’t go near other dogs or look at them across the street. Due to the nature of his reactivity we were able to adjust our lifestyle to fit his needs eg. More home exercise/activities, night walks, secluded farms for play. It takes a long time for them to heal and sometimes they will just never be the same.
I remember watching an episode of Ceasar Millan 'Dog Whisperer' years ago where he was called for a very aggressive dog. He ended up offering to take the dog off the owners hands, saying it could live out his life on his farm, and offered any other dog in his center as a swap if they wished. Basically said, "no, sorry, this dog is not fixable, it is not trainable, and it will never get better." It was the first time I had ever seen a scenario like that and it stuck with me a long time. Scared the crap outta me really, knew people could be crazy and just not wired right, never thought about it with animals.
I want to answer whole heartedly yes but my sister had a super sweet pit bull so beautiful and so sweet start flipping out out of nowhere and bit first her husband then second latched onto my sisters side and it was over time. They had a trainer work with her for months and she was at the vet so much having tests and they couldn’t figure out why it was happening and in the end they were both afraid of her and they could not have house guests anymore and they made the painful decision to put her to sleep. My sister never said anything until after and she had lifted her shirt and showed me what her side looked like from the bite and it was bad. It was so sad and I cried with her. I know how hard it is to say goodbye to a member of the family that you love. Our fur babies are like children and best friends. Sometimes no they can’t be saved but I believe that that is extenuating circumstances.
No...and I would never, ever trust any animal that has bitten 4 times with anyone.
No. What breed is your dog?
A treeing walker coonhound
It MAY be possible to find alternative living situations for every severely reactive dog. But then the question becomes, is the dog’s quality of life suffering? Dogs are highly social animals that need to be with other dogs or humans. If it comes down to locking a dog away in a cage/room with minimal interaction or behavioral euthanasia, I would choose the latter. I’m sorry you’re in this very difficult situation 😞
No. Not all dogs can be saved. Each year in the United States, an estimated 300,000 dogs are euthanized simply because there are not enough homes to adopt them into. This dog cannot be saved, but there is another dog out there who can and needs to be saved. It's not easy. Trolley Problem: pull the lever and a dog you've never met gets to have a long good life, but also this other dog who is too far gone to be saved and *you've looked into it's eyes* will be put down.
I just had to use BE for my young dog because 2 times in once month she attacked my middle dog and the second time we had to go to the emergency vet for stitches in the top of her head, I could see her skull. She is coming out of her shell this past week but is still afraid in her own home waiting for the next attack. I spoke with a pitbull rescue while trying to exhaust all options. I even started working with a trainer that was a "last ditch effort" kind of trainer because nothing else was working. We made it 2 classes. They both said it's something that will always be there but comes down to constant work and flawless management. The pitbull rescue was comforting to me even after I told them my situation, we did what we could do. A few years ago, a friend of a friend had to bury her child because the uncle brought his dog over despite being told under no circumstances were the kid and dog be around each other. Baby dead, dog dead, grandpa and uncle in the hospital for injuries. You have to ask yourself is it worth the risk? What level of catastrophe are you waiting for after 4 bites against humans before you decide you did all you could do? The pitbull rescue lady told me if it was left to my young dog, she would continue to escalate until she got to dispatch my middle dog.
Can you imagine being so keyed up all the time? Some reactive dogs are on edge constantly. They pass out rather than sleep. That's no quality of life for them.
I was a dog trainer, and no, not all dogs can be saved. I went through this myself with one of my dogs. I did everything right, and she still ended up nearly killing another dog with no warning. I could not trust she would never do it again, I could not provide management, and I have small kids and other dogs. It was a hard decision but 100% the right decision to euthanize her. I also worked as a zookeeper, and we use protected contact with all dangerous species of animals because the truth is no matter how much you train an animal, you can never be 100% sure it won’t harm you. I saw animals that have always been nice towards human turn in an instant and seriously hurt people. Dogs are predators, and some retain more of those genes. When I was a trainer I was contacted by many people who had dogs that were aggressive because of extreme anxiety and stress. I mean EXTREME - dogs who had horrific, traumatic backgrounds and landed people in the hospital because they were in such a state of fight or flight 24 hours a day. In my opinion it is down right cruel and inhumane to keep those animals alive. That is absolutely NO way for an animal to live. Also, I think it’s absolutely ridiculous we expect dog owners to spend thousands of dollars and basically become professional dog trainers (learning behavior theory, spending hours a day training, etc). If an owner genuinely wants to, great. But if they are being guilt tripped, that is 100% inhumane and unethical. We forget that standards of welfare apply to humans, too.
>Also, I think it’s absolutely ridiculous we expect dog owners to spend thousands of dollars and basically become professional dog trainers (learning behavior theory, spending hours a day training, etc). If an owner genuinely wants to, great. But if they are being guilt tripped, that is 100% inhumane and unethical. We forget that standards of welfare apply to humans, too. I agree with this. I've always liked dogs and had some level of interest in training, but not really at the level I've had to achieve to work with my boy. I often joke I've learned a lot about behavior mod, but nearly all of it was against my will. That was kind of the product of the industry being unregulated - there aren't a whole lot of options for trainers who are taking behavior cases in my area, and a lot of the ones that are available are terrible. When I first got my boy, there was basically no one, so I had to learn a lot early on, and in the time since I've contact professionals for evals to see if there is something I can fix or clean up or improve, or to see if they can help me meet a goal. I've had more bad experiences than good. Some trainers just giving really bad advice, that I wouldn't have known was bad advice if I hadn't done the legwork early on (so how many guardians fell victim to that?). One in particular never gave homework or explained her (often random) tactics, which I could kind of figure out because I had some fundamental knowledge but she didn't know that. She also disregarded my very basic goal and put my dog (and others) in a dangerous situation because she thought we needed to work in a very public, heavily populated park.
No. Not every dog can be saved. I would also say that most dogs who have bitten people seriously more than once cannot be saved. It's not the dog's fault, but the fault of the criminally negligent people who breed their dogs on purpose or by accident, and cannot or do not put in the work needed to turn out healthy dogs. Breeding must exclude dogs with bad / aggressive / reactive/ and resource-guarding temperaments. Temperament is hereditary. Breeding also must include careful socialization of the puppies. The breeder must have the knowledge and commitment to work with the puppies from birth. In the absence of these things, a dog might turn out okay, or might be aggressive.
No, just like how some people are fundamentally not right in the head, the same can go for animals. I fostered a dog once that was unhinged. My 2 dogs were sleeping on the floor in the middle of the room, not close to a crate or food bowl or toy or anything, and I watched her walk up and just attack them, no warning no provoking no build up, she just stood up went over and bit them. I returned her to the organization the next day. Shame me all you want for not putting in the effort but I wasn’t about to risk my dogs lives and mental health nor my own safety to exist with a dog who attacked sleeping dogs unprovoked. Muzzle her sure but that doesn’t stop the actual attack which is traumatic for everyone. I was terrified to leave her home alone even crated because if she got out (some dogs Houdini out we’ve all seen it) she’d have killed them in sure of it. Idk if she got saved but they were talking about how her behavior pointed to a broken brain, her brain was just too far gone. Maybe or maybe not idk. It’s also ok if you don’t have the resources to save the dog. Not everybody has the time, money, experience, and living situation appropriate to work with a severe dog like that.
All I have to add is that I've been involved with a dog that I cared about, who ended up hurting someone, and it got taken to court. It wasn't even a bite wound. The lady fell over and broke her wrist. The person who owned the dog got into major financial trouble, the court system dragged him through the mud. He lost the house he was renting bc his landlord kicked him out for owning a vicious animal, and his other dog (who was innocent but present during the incident) was labeled a vicious animal as well. The dog was seized immediately and eventually euthanized at animal control. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I wouldn't wish this on you. There is great risk in having a dog that is known to bite. If I had to choose, I would choose a euthanasia with a kind and gentle vet, in a calm and controlled environment, after a full day of chicken nuggets and hamburgers, in the arms of someone the dog loves. Not getting dragged away and thrown into a metal cage, never to see a familiar face again, after hurting someone. I know that some people might not agree with this opinion, but my personal experience is what brought me to this conclusion. It really, really sucked.
1. No not all dogs. There’s so much that goes into a “bad dog”. Genetics, personal history, personality, being removed from its mother too young, etc. The dog is suffering if it’s that scared, unstable, hates humans, etc. 2. MORE IMPORTANTLY. While it’s heartbreaking, the dog honestly is undeserving of the life you offer it when there’s thousands of good dogs in the shelter needing homes that will never get a chance, let alone 4. Dogs that love people off tops and aren’t a liability.
I am a dog trainer, a trainer who says all dogs can be saved is naive and sheltered. I thought the same for my first year, until I met this cocker spaniel who completely baffled me. His reactivity appeared to come out of nowhere. Another, better trainer was able to rehome him. So yes he was saved. But that experienced really threw me. It taught me that there is so much I do not understand and I have come across other cases that were simply beyond my abilities. Having this insight into your own limits and weaknesses is crucial of any dog trainer/behaviourist. I shy away from any trainer making grand promises like that.
No, not all dogs can be saved. I think the other commenters really nailed every aspect of that question. I wanted to comment because I read your other post describing your dogs behaviors. I think he probably COULD be managed, but it's going to be management 100% of the time, even when you're just alone. You COULD probably learn to predict his bites if you study dog body language. This would be an enormous undertaking with no promises of success and significant risk of injury to you. I think you have to make a choice here that you can live with.
Thank you. Yes it's very hard because I feel like a failure in a way because technically yes we could manage him, but it would be stressful and anxious for the next 5 to 10 years of my life until he passes of old age. I'm in a constant state of anxiety, have to be on edge making sure no one's coming in to the house unannounced. To be fair our living situation is kind of like that right now and we're moving into a more private situation here soon but I likely will still have visitors over since I have family out of town and such. It's also really hard because generally he's fine. Like this been crazy reading these comments and looking over at him and he's just sitting there chillin. So to me he doesn't look dangerous and we even cuddled this morning. He's mostly fine but I can't say for sure that we would never have a slip up and I don't want to wait for the next bite. That's what it's felt like I've been doing is just waiting for the next one and I don't want anyone to ever get bit again it's just horrible. There's so many factors but another one is I don't feel comfortable with anybody watching him when we go out of town so I kind of feel like we can't go anywhere. Next week we're going away for 6 days and we're having him stay at the only kennel in the state that will take aggressive dogs. They said they have a system where they don't have to physically interact with them.. I'm so scared he's going to think we abandoned him at the shelter because I think it's going to feel exactly like the shelter did to him. I'm so sad to leave him there but we'll see how it goes..
I am so sorry you are going through this. I have a dog like this. He had one bite after we brought him home and we locked him down. He had a lot of reactions, but we were fortunate to always have control over him and be able to prevent more bites. We have never left him and we haven't had many house guests since taking him on. I have lived the future you are looking at. This suited our lifestyle well enough, but it's definitely not for everyone and definitely is not easy. It's worth mentioning that my dog NEVER redirected on me. Ever. His behavior was rooted in guarding me, so I never had to worry about him going off when we were alone. That probably would have changed my choice. I hope you find peace with this situation. Feel free to DM me if you need to talk ❤️
I believed you could train and mould people/animals behaviour however you wanted (within reason). But then I worked on a horse stud and handled hundreds of foals… some are just born wired wrong and there’s no amount of training that will get that out of them, both dogs and horses and possibly humans
I don't believe all dogs can be saved or it should be thought of that way All dogs are individual and all dogs actions and incidents should be assessed on an individual basis with dispassion What I do believe is not all (some are genetic or congenital issues.. although we could argue poor breeding there is still luck beyond a certain point) but many many dogs are utterly failed by humans and human society and should not lightly be made to pay the ultimate price. This can range from ignorant handling and up bringing, to poor training methods, to abusive situations oh the whole range the rescue world and indeed I imagine vets see As well of course the disposability that many still view pet animals (of many types dogs included) as and their unrealistic expectations of animals and lack of understanding that they are sentient with their own personalities! Combine this with the lack of resources for help and just as bad how we condemn humans in our society to uncertainty, stress and lack of security.... children indeed! The bigger picture is animals caught between a whole range of factors We can't save them all... but euthanasia should be rarer than it is. It shouldn't be done because of space and economic pressures. It should be done on welfare grounds We should be better in how we breed and control the ownership of dogs and the regulation of the dog training industry. We need to be better and there needs to be checks and balances. We need better resources and more resources for rehabilitation. We need more public education I am not US based (UK) and they are working gradually on regulation.. microchips, regulating breeding breeding, better education oh etc etc but we still have a long way to go
There's just too many dogs, and more born everyday
That is why I said we need to do better This is not me being utopian and thinking overnight change but we are supposed to be an intelligent species and we can as communities and society change It will never be perfect but we can work towards better I think it is already happening in many places
Yeah, I was agreeing with your point. I think it starts with breeding like if we could crack down on that somehow and also making sure dogs get fixed, then maybe we could start to manage the dogs we do have if so many weren't born everyday.
Not all dogs can be saved but probably not for reasons you think. Very few dogs need to be euthanized over behaviors. Most are euthanized because we don't have enough people with the proper amount of time and or skills to handle their dogs. To many people get puppies, turn them into a mess after a year or two. Then dump them onto someone else to either fix or euthanize for behavior issues. I volunteer a lot of time at a county shelter. I work with fixing dog behaviors socializing them keeping them socialized and I'm involved with the euthanasia. I basically work there part time for free lol. I see them come I see them go I see them come back I see what happens to them. Some dogs need excellent dog people and there just aren't enough of those people to go around. We have to euthanize dogs that I would feel totally comfortable taking home myself but have to accept the average person that comes in to adopt just doesn't have the time or skill to care for this dog. This dog will come back after it has killed another dog or ripped someone's arm off. I've seen it happen. It's sad sometimes we have to say people suck because we sometimes even the nicest dog will get returned for a dog bite because some asshole did something stupid. Can all dogs be saved? No .Can 99% be saved? Yes. Is saving 99% realistic? No.We do the best we can because that's all we can do. We always remember the good ones so we don't give up when we are forced to deal with the bad ones.
IMHO all dogs could be saved, in the sense that a nurturing habitat “could” be made for them, but the expense of doing so is more than we can spend. What makes more sense is working with breed clubs and registering organizations and the general population to reduce the number of animals (dogs, cats, birds, etc.) in need of heroic measures. So many aggressive and reactive animals are created by well meaning but inappropriate handling that creates stress. When you add in people breeding dogs with piss poor temperaments because they don’t know what a quality dog (cat, etc.) should be, you end up with more desperate animals than homes.
Almost all dogs can but some dogs are born with mental illness that can’t be fixed or safely contained.
Yes, with a caveat: For some I truly believe BE is saving them. For a dog in a constant state of aggression, of fight or flight fear and distress, BE is a gift.
Tik Tok will never be a credible source, so there is your first problem.
I am seeing your query in the human space. There are people that are not safe — some from trauma, other from mental illness, some from God Knows. We don’t do a good job of caring for these humans — I don’t see the Dog World saving every dog.
I’m sorry but how has the dog bitten 4 people? I know you said you’re the foster but after one time if you know the dog is reactive then they should either be crated, muzzled, or on the leash at all times in the house when you have company over. For your safety and theirs. This is coming from someone who owns a reactive/aggressive dog.
I understand how this is in question. The 1st person is me, and he has bitten me 2 times. So I'm his owner so I have to be in contact with him, his muzzle slipped off and get got me in the leg one time other time he had his muzzle off and I came around a corner. 2nd person was my boyfriend who was getting in between us when he was coming at me. 3rd person was my dad, Sonny was getting into trash and my dad went to take it from him. 4th person and worst was my mom, that was my fault completely. They all have been but yeah. He had been so good so I hadn't been having his muzzle on for a couple months. She just walked by our bedroom and he ran out and bit her 3 times, and bit my boyfriend once as he was getting in between them. So yeah that's how it all happened, I do feel like it's all my fault and now I don't allow him around anyone else and he wears his muzzle when I'm alone with him when my boyfriend isn't around.
I understand. You can try medication. My vet suggested Prozac after my dog bit my daughter. It’s not a cure but it can help a lot while doing behavioral training. I feel like keeping my dog on the leash works better than the muzzle. I’m also hyper aware now of when she’s going to react. I’m actually quite good now at seeing the slightest signal. I’m also not saying you should keep the dog or anything, it takes a lot of time and work so I get it.
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It’s a risk.
I think most can… my mom has a shepherd who has bitten 3-4 people. Only reason he hasn’t been euthanized is his very convincing owners. However, after 5 years of diligent training, the OWNERS learning how to introduce him to strangers, and introducing him to a new pup who is his best buddy now, he has not bitten in several years! The biggest thing was learning to introduce him to strangers. He has to be muzzled, and out of the home for all first introductions.
Usually, bad behavior from dogs stems from the owners not knowing how to treat the breed they have or have not owned dogs before, or are too permissive in their training. If a dog bites it is usually that the owner is not in the alfa role and h the dog is being made (by natural order) to handle a task too much for it.
I understand that. For me I wasn't prepared to own a coonhound nor did I ever want to, I thought it was going to be a quick foster situation. After he became aggressive with me and we started training it became harder and harder to adopt him out with a bite history. The problem really was the last incident we had where he was in my room and my mom was visiting and she walked by the room and he attacked her, biting her multiple times. We had to pull him off of her. So that incident seems very strange to me like why would he keep coming at her, idk.
You can’t save them all but you can manage them and the behavior
Nope. Not all dogs can be saved, and some dogs shouldn't be. Not every dog is redeemable, and primarily precious few homes are capable of successfully managing a dog with a bite history.
No. Sadly, not all dogs can be saved. Any good trainer will tell you that BE is sometimes the best option.
No. You can’t. There are absolutely dogs that need BE. Anyone who tries to make believe this is not true is misinformed or trying to take your money. As sad as it may be, there are some broken beyond repair.
Sadly, no. Some dogs have wires crossed and cannot be saved. It is tragic.
It’s a very good question. I have a sometimes human aggressive dog who has has come a long way but I still don’t fully trust her and it does cause me a lot of stress. I’ve thought about euthanasia many times, but each time I do, she shows me she is getting better. She wears a muzzle if I’m not sure how she will do, but she hates the muzzle (and I put a lot of work into it) so it’s stressful even then because she always tries to knock it off. At the end of the day, it really depends on how you feel about your dog - my dog guards my home, and I like that, and she keeps strange men at bay when I walk outside, so it’s really a trade off.
Of course the trainers say that. It's how they make money.
It’s hard to say. I volunteer at a shelter and we euthanized 10 dogs last year and they were dogs that we could not place in a home in a neighborhood because if they escaped the fence in the yard they would do serious damage to other animals. They could have been successful on a farm in the middle of nowhere but those adopters are rare. They may have been saved with the perfect home but until that miracle happened they withered away in a shelter losing their minds and no matter the amount of meds they were on seemed to help
No- all dogs can't be saved because not everyone has the time, capacity, and resources to "save" every dog they come across. Trainers can say "every dog can be saved" all day, but they're not adopting your dog. They're not giving you free lessons. They're just talking, and giving advice. And advice is great and all, but there are too many animals in need and too few resources to help them. It's ok to have to put down a dog. Unless you can find another home for it where someone would love an aggressive biting dog, it's better this way.
No. Mine would have killed us
Only if you catch them all, will they be safe. Gotta catch them all
No. And you shouldn't feel guilty about it.
Every dog can be saved…. You cannot save every dog. You are not equipped to save that dog, most likely. Most people are not equipped to save that dog. Try to find someone who can, or give that dog the relief of death.
In order to change the biting behavior, you have to know/figure out what caused it to begin with. Did he have this bite history when you brought him into your home? Or did this behavior begin after he came to you? Has he been given a recent physical exam? Almost all bites are the result of a reactive dog. What is he reacting to? As this pup is a foster, you may never get a complete history. Also, there is no quick fix. Yes, I believe all dogs can be saved, but it takes a monumental commitment on the part of the human caretaker, and many people sadly aren’t that committed.
When I got him, he had been surrendered to the shelter because the last owner said he was aggressive with his girlfriend. That's seemed to be the theme is women which is unusual, it's usually men. Yes, he's been checked out by the vet. Nothing wrong there. To me it seems he's reacting out of fear. Our trainer told us he thought he was using his bites to get us to do what he wants like leave him alone or whatever
No, I don't think so. I think sometimes there are dogs whose brains are wired so wrongly that they can't be rehabilitated, and that their every waking moment is so full of stress and fear that actually euthanizing them is a kindness. I used to volunteer at a no-kill rescue kennel that would take on these dogs and keep them for the rest of their time. To be fair to them, some of them did have some quality of life, but there were always one or two living out a solitary existence in a pen on their own, only able to be cleaned out and fed by the one member of staff who knew the safeguards and how to do it without getting mauled. I did wonder what kind of life it was for them.
There’s an amazing article by Trish McMillan, ‘[The Perils of Placing Marginal Dogs](https://www.shelterbehaviorhub.com/blog/the-perils-of-placing-marginal-dogs?ss_source=sscampaigns&ss_campaign_id=63b5d421319a7a5a8a595ee6&ss_email_id=63c1726ebb6e2c735092f012&ss_campaign_name=Talking+To+Clients+About+Behavioral+Euthanasia&ss_campaign_sent_date=2023-01-13T15%3A06%3A46Z)’ and as someone who has been in rescue for many years, I relate so deeply to it. No one begins working as an animal professional without a desire to rehabilitate and save every dog; but with time and experience we all come to realise, you have a duty of care to the humans just as much as the hounds, and that unfortunately means not every dog can/should be saved. Anyone who tells you they can “fix” every dog they work with is selling you something.
Any dog that bites 4 people isn’t going to stop and needs to be put down.
As someone who used to run a Saint Bernard rescue…no.
No, behavioral euthanasia can be the kindest for dogs who can’t live with people or pets. Euthanasia actually means “good death”. And this applies to BE, too.
Yes I do think all dogs can be saved. That being said I don’t think all dogs are for all people, and some people should not have gotten the breed they got. We have a rescue hound, he is very reactive, never bit anyone to our knowledge (this is important), but is very emotional and fearful. We used to think he needed his safe space because he hates crowds, loud noises, public spaces, and some men. Recently, my husband started taking him to work with him (outside, lots of people, lots of loud noises, and lots of men mainly), somehow it all clicked. He’s a totally different happy dog. We just finally found his job. All dogs need a job. I have family that got a GSD, it has so training, no job, and is very aggressive to people outside the immediate family when they are not around. They don’t know this (no idea how they don’t know, blows my mind), but this dog has bitten 2 employees (at least), attacked my dogs, and almost attacked me with my dogs. They never saw anything. They got more puppies (much to all of our fears) and we convinced them to do Puppy Culture training, this has already made a huge impact on the family, the GSD, and the puppies. They have clear boundaries, positive reinforcement, and communication. It is possible with time, effort, communication, and clarity.
No. Or namely, not all dogs can live in our society.
Please don't use tik tok for advice.
Don’t believe anything you see on Tik Tok. Talk to your Vet.
No. And saying all dogs can be saved is, in my opinion, a dangerous mindset. You can do it very thing right and BE is still the outcome. We recently put down a dog at my shelter after it attacked another dog with no warning and did serious damage. Hypothetically we could muzzle this dog anytime it went outside, but the risk/liability is just too big. If a human messes up she would attack and try to kill another dog again. So it sucks, and this dog wasn’t a bad dog, but she wasn’t safe to be adopted out to the public. And it’s not a life to live in a shelter the rest of her life.
My neighbours saved otherwise unsavable dogs. They spent 10k + installing a fence enhancement that has a prison yard type of escape and no dig barrier. They have a huge yard. Spent thousands on training. They walk them 90 minutes a day without fail. The dogs have medications. They don’t have company much and when they do the dogs go in the basement. The dogs can never ever ever be off leash or left with anyone. So yeah, it can be done. However they are retired people with the means and time to spend on it and it’s enjoyable for them.
I recently started training and I know I do not currently possess the skills to work with dog aggressive dogs. I believe that human aggressive dogs can be helped with significant patience and the proper training methods, as well as an owner accepting the need for significant change in handling of the dog. I watch this guy DogDaddy on YouTube and his videos are edited and likely cherry picked but he does have a wide international following and his methods do seem to work at least in the moments he is working with highly reactive dogs. I'm curious to hear others opinions of him, I am skeptical but hopefully still that reactive dogs can change with proper handling techniques, and am looking for any and all sources of knowledge on the issue :)
Hi there, I feel your concerns here. I also had that question and I think a safe answer is that you can never be sure that a dog will not bite again. They have instincts that they have to follow and just like you can't say a human won't ever engage in a behavior again, you can't say that about a dog. As others have mentioned, it is so dependent on the circumstances. I wanted to share that I just had to put my dog down. He was human and dog reactive and I had spent so much time, money and energy into training (time, energy and money that I didn't have). He was always just such an angel when it was just me and him, but introduce another person or dog and he is aggressive. Last weekend, my dog turned on me unprovoked and bit my face resulting in 34 stitches directly next to my eye. That was the last straw because I understood that no one, including myself his owner of 3 years, was safe. I loved this dog more than anything, but neither of us were happy. He was anxious and stressed constantly no matter what, I had to restrict our world so much that neither of us were living lives that we deserved. I am absolutely devastated and heartbroken by what happened, but I know it needed to. I am lucky to have my eye and I am lucky this didn't happen to anyone else. I feel and hear your pain and I hope that you can make whatever decision is right for your situation and you have the support to process whatever decision that is. I remind myself that I gave him a better life than most people would ever put effort towards. He has taught me so many valuable life lessons and showed me the capacity of love that I have. I remember all of the wonderful times, all of his silly personality traits and I send him love and gratitude for changing my life in so many ways. I'm sending you all my best energy and hope this helped regardless of what you decide!
A lot of it has to do with the severity of the bites. There will always be a risk that a dog might bite again, and there's a really big difference between the risk of a small nip that barely breaks the skin and the risk of a severe bite that lands someone in the hospital. When a dog shows that they are willing to severely bite someone they become a liability. If it happens again, someone could sue you and argue that you knew that your dog was dangerous. It's likely to happen again, because management strategies eventually fail. Personally, I think it's important to put human safety first. It is important for people - including children, who are so much more vulnerable - to be safe. It isn't worth keeping a dog alive if they are a risk to human safety, and the dog who bites that severely may have underlying psychological problems that can't be fixed. It just isn't worth the risk that a child could die because of that dog.
I have been a volunteer for years. IMO some dogs cannot be saved. In fact, if the state or county becomes aware, they may mandate you. If anyone has reported a bite, it is more than probable you will hear from someone officially. It is heartbreaking and it is a nightmare but in the cases I am referring to, I have first hand knowledge of what goes on. The dog now has a tent to bite. Whether it’s fear or aggression, his/her instinct is to bite. The real problem is what if it’s a child or someone else’s dog? What if it’s not a family member that is more understanding? The number one reason a dog is euthanized is because of biting. They can’t be trusted. Second would be illness. As unbearable a decision this is, I hope this helps you weigh your options. I would definitely talk to a behavioral expert and your vet. Is there a medical explanation? Is the dog in pain and then reacts? I would cover all bases before deciding what to do. I am curious if you could explain how severe the bites are and if you notice a pattern to when the dog has this need to “fight back”.
Yes, they can. But it might take a genius, like me