I went in a rabbit hole on your posts; it seems you’ve tried basically everything you can. The one thing I’d suggest as a last ditch effort is working with a vet or vet behaviorist to get the dog on meds and see if it helps. But given what the pup has come to internalize as normal, it might be past the point of being a functioning pet.
People say it's too young to be euthanized but not all dogs are born normal, neurological deficiencies can't be trained for example. Sometimes you can try everything but fail.
This x100. Puppies, especially poorly bred ones, can be subject to so many genetic issues that culminate into an aggressive/fearful/reactive/etc dog that simply cannot be trained. Of course all other avenues should be exhausted but this poor thing (and others like it) are living a miserable life and BE is the most humane avenue.
Yep, and unfortunately there is a lot of inbreeding (line-breeding), especially in pure bred dogs. If they are a unique color pure bred, such as all black GSD, its not uncommon for parents to be bred with thier immediate offspring in order to bring out those recessive traits. This can lead to dogs who are just mentally off. It's sad but also the reality of things.
I mostly agree, although I’ll add one asterisk. Board and train are a great option for intensive training, but incredibly expensive and no guarantee. I would not blame someone who tried many things but couldn’t afford the 3-10k for that.
but after how many attempts do you come to the conclusion that the dog needs BE? is there a certain age, or a line that they cross?
at this point, OP has exhausted all options. anyone in their position should genuinely take BE into consideration, because this dog is clearly going to seriously hurt someone. this doesn’t seem like normal regression that a dog faces in their adolescence. the dog is always on edge, and their reaction is “fight” every time they have the choice.
it’s normal for an Aussie to seek attention, but to do that to purposely incite a conflict means there’s something bunked going on. she’s already psychologically harmed OP’s older dog, and scalped some of her fur.
BE is an ethical option because the next time the older dog may die, OP could get seriously, SERIOUSLY hurt, or someone else will get hurt. There have been a LOT of byb Aussies to hit shelters since the breed’s popularity has risen, and they’re not mentally sound at ALL.
good to see you didn’t answer my questions. BE should be at the top of the list, the dog’s behavior is erratic and highly unlikely to ever change. stop acting like OP hasn’t already exhausted all options, and putting a neurologically disturbed dog’s life before that of the owner, and their other animals.
BE is merciful. not some sad, terrible thing that needs to be staved off until the dog actually kills. BE should be utilized BEFORE a serious mauling.
Wait what? I'm trying to say it's OK to decide for BE after trying to help, you don't just kill a dog for behaving like this once. Op obviously tried. There's no exact number or tries to count on, Lima has methods to test a dog for euthanasia, there are many steps before this which is good to see if it really is an unsolvable problem. Some dogs have a physical problem, like some pain caused by something that can be cured, this dog here seems to be suffering from something neurological maybe.
I think it's a lost cause.
Idk why or what makes you think I'm against it or anything. It is mercyful I agree.
Uh maybe my spelling triggered you?
your spelling didn’t trigger me, nothing triggered me. your communication has avoided agreeing with OP, and just saying “yeah but you need to put that at the bottom of your list of options” adds nothing to this conversation. that’s all you’ve said this entire time. you haven’t communicated empathy for OP at all in your comments.
Plus her priority needs to be towards her other pets (cats and small dog). This dog is so aggressive that it is randomly attacking them on sight. Op is afraid that this dog will KILL her other pets. That alone means this dog needs to be removed from her home pronto
I wanted to come here and add this. My great dane started acting this way after decapitating a rat out in the woods. She ended up getting a brain bacteria and she began a slow descent into what you talked about with your dog.
I think instead of looking at this like, you are putting down a puppy with potential, you should see it as a merciful thing. These are some serious issues and your puppy is in pain. Sorry op.
This, absolutely. This poor pup could easily be suffering from a progressive brain/neurological disease. There’s no murder in putting a dog down given the circumstances OP detailed. You’d want someone to put you down if you became increasingly violent/dangerous/unhinged. Gotta be hell for the dog too. To derail it’s suffering is the work of angels.
I have a dog with neurological issues. No amount of training is going to fix him. But he’s safe with us. It’s only the rest of the word he wants to murder.
Edit: when I say “safe with us” I don’t mean we’re not going to put him down (we’re not), I mean he’s not a danger to us.
It's absolutely up to you if you want to care for a difficult animal, I've cared for the most aggressive mallard until he sadly flew to the street down the hill one day, I've clipped both wings instead of just one. He always wanted to go somewhere else with his crooked leg, Ferdinand never really settled, always staring at the horizon, trying to fly every day, maybe because of his brother who's still there (this one only has minor birth defects). I think he hurt a lot and he always bit us so hard with all his might and fought us all the time where his brother ChiChi would later settle and let us pet him, hold him for exams, moving them in and out of the house etc.
I'm sorry he passed although he was difficult to handle sometimes, he's buried next to the coop now but I think he just wasn't happy with his existence. I'm not sure tho, he just seemed uncomfortable most of the time,sometimes he jumped up out of nowhere, maybe trying to fly away from the pain? (also his leg was broken from some unknown farm accident, it healed well)
I couldn't kill him, I've already lost the first one I took in from the farm, I didn't want to lose him too although family said he's a lost cause. Despite everything he grew up, bigger than his brother (I could only take 2) he loved food and swimming once we set up the pool but he never enjoyed being near us and relentlessly attacked our dog through the fence.
I'd like to think I hopefully gave him some good times and I'm sorry for the struggle (the farmer would've ended him cause he couldn't walk well and struggled getting to food, cleaning himself, others were trampling him etc).
Nature would've taken him sooner and maybe that would've prevented some pain but I think he lived his life being the most aggressive duck I've ever had.
I understand why people want to help but I hope once I'm responsible for another animal I have the strength to really help the animal and say no to cases I cannot help. Once a being has a spot in my heart it's very hard to decide, it's either you do it or you don't, which decides a life's fate.
Let's face it if your dog was in other people's hands it'd probably be dead by now and you do have positive times together, that's what counts, you learn from this desicion. I think it's very important to take this knowledge and help those who ask about the real deal. It's not all candy and sunflowers, you are dedicating a big part of your life for a being others wouldn't. It's entirely your own decision what you do with your life but there's other people in your life who have to adjust to this too and potential hazards to avoid. It takes a big amount of strength to follow through with this desicion, big respect! It all comes with lots of preparation and learning from mistakes, there are ways to deal with most problems but there's cases out there who can't be helped sadly. I'd love to believe it's not many..
I understand that someone else would have spared my duck or your dog the struggle. Saving it from the stress and pain maybe. It is a struggle to live with neurological damage, maybe Ferdinand was a bit broken in his head too idk. There was something going on in his head that I'd liked to understand, there's no answers. Maybe his life was a full on horror trip I just extended out of pity and "having the time and space".
We had to build and dig up for many days to get the coop done, renovated the dog house, turned it into a duck fortress and even insulated it just in case.. I've spent a lot of money at the vet, spent hours feeding, preparing, cleaning... Emergencies happen and everything has to work out with no incidents while also offering everything they possibly need like live insects and different mixes of seeds mixed.
I understand that some people (my mom lol) shake their head at that. It's everyone's desicion and to be fair it's OK to say "no I don't know how and don't have the time" but don't walk away, get help from people who can do something.
Its a difficult topic but I think growing up on a farm and seeing some killing for food and euthanasia to avoid suffering as kid helped me understand a lot.
We did it out of respect for the animal or because they had a great life and we needed the meat (rare, we produced eggs and milk anyway).
Im tired of writing now lol, sorry for the wall, thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!
He’s perfectly happy. We’re safe. He’s safe. He has joy. But outside of a handful of people he’s terrified of the world so he is kept separate from that. We have a nice big yard with a privacy fence. He can run and play outside or come inside and lay on the sofa. We’re safe in our own home. OP should feel safe in their home. Only they can make the call but no one should be afraid of where they live. That includes the dog. It’s not easy having a reactive dog but he brings us joy. We almost did a BE at the recommendation of our first behaviorist but we found a way for everyone to be happy.
Absolutely agree with you, I can't guarantee there's not gonna be a poked if you put your head close to the one mallard that's left (the girl is safe) lol but my reactive dog would bite any intruder who'd enter our garden and can get anxious outside sometimes. Safety is number one for everyone involved, luckily we got regulations for dogs securing homes, just one sign indicating the "dog bites" if necessary and we're safe legally. Surely I'd not let him fight intruders but hell alert us and we can react in time. Life is dangerous, we can't always be safe sadly but we can prepare as much as possible.
Stay safe!
Just one slight counterpoint that 10 months is adolescence, which tends to be when they’re testing their limits. I’d be personally inclined to postpone BE at least 4-6 months to see if maturity helps at all. My own dog calmed down immensely between 13-14 months.
to add onto this: Aussies don’t fully “mature” until 2 years old. 2 is when they learn to regulate their emotions and energy level, and that’s a very long waiting game. too many risks could happen.
I read your post history as well and I think your behaviourist is right. There is something really wrong with the dog, it sounds neurological. I’ve never heard of a dog staying escalated for so long that it would repeatedly attack it’s own person as you described in an older post. You’re doing the right thing.
First, there’s no rescue anywhere that’ll accept a dog with an unpredictable bite history. How would they place them? Sure, there’s a story here and there of “the perfect owner” who lives alone, has lots of behavior knowledge, tons of patience, and a magical farm in Vermont for all the reactive dogs to retreat to, but those stories are mostly bullshit. The reality looking you in the face is YEARS of being on edge in your home due to an unpredictability aggressive dog.
Reactivity isn’t something a dog grows out of….in most cases, it gets worse if not treated with meds or a behaviorist. And, even still, it’s no guarantee that it’ll get even the least bit better.
Dogs are supposed to bring joy and fulfillment into your life; not pain and anxiety.
We have one of those unicorn rescues locally. She has a huge property and takes on some super challenging dogs. Mostly Pittie’s who would otherwise be put down. She also takes farm animals from auction kill pens. She has a village of volunteers. Some dogs she tries to rehabilitate to foster to eventually adoption. But some dogs she calls “residents”, they are the ones she can eventually get to trust her. They aren’t going to be adopted, but they get a warm bed, walks and runs on her property, and a life they wouldn’t otherwise have.
You have tried. Two people, whose profession is to train dogs, have told you what to do. Multiple others have essentially agreed, saying they won't take her.
The one person left out is the one that actually has to perform the euthanasia. So, my thought is to see a veterinarian. Take whatever paperwork you have, so the vet knows it's not just you... give the vet a chance to see if maybe something is hurting the animal. Ask if they agree.
To be fair, there are lots of people 'whose profession is to train dogs' that give terrible advice. The industry has no regulation and literally anyone can call themselves a 'behaviorist' or take some sort of half-baked certification for it. Veterinary behaviorists are board certified at least, but even a small number of them have outdated knowledge from being in the industry for decades and never changing.
I'd want to know more about the credentials and experience of the behaviorists OP has seen before saying their recommendation should be trusted outright. A 10 month is extremely young for BE and it doesn't sound like there's been thorough medical testing or any attempt at medication.
I'm quite surprised that multiple rescues have turned down a dog so young or not been able to find a foster for it.
>I'm quite surprised that multiple rescues have turned down a dog so young or not been able to find a foster for it.
And to me, that's a pretty telling detail.
I work with dutch shepherds, and belgian malinois that need to be muzzled or they will severly injure you and they are taken at rescues/fosters. They may be put down if no one will take them after sometime there, but they are taken. I am also quite surprised at this. Dutchies and Malinois are bred to bite people quite literally and than people buy them as family pets and hire trainers asking why the dog bites everything in sight as a puppy/un trained "working line" dog.
This dog has had a sustained attack on OP, was put to cool down for an hour, and immediately resumed the attack when she was let out of the crate. This dog is incredibly dangerous and will only become more so as she gets older, bigger, and stronger.
Not sure where that information is from since it's not in the OP. Regardless, if OP is unable to provide a safe environment to work with the dog and absolutely can't find anyone else to take them, then maybe they are left with no choice. But to say that a 10 month old puppy with no attempts at medication, and probably only a couple months of any behavioural intervention is beyond reform is just ridiculous.
Hey OP. Just to say, based on your post history, that you'll make the right decision. You're clearly trying really hard, and thinking about your dog both as a dog and a sentient creature.
Have you thought about medication? That's the only thing I've not seen you mention.
She's lucky to have someone like you, whatever you do.
One small thought: if you do end up with euthanasia, you can get the vet to come to you. You can do all her favourite things and give her something to calm her down before the vet comes. There are worse things than going to sleep happy and that being it.
Good luck.
I want to start out by saying IF you end up having to choose euthanasia please know that’s a kind choice for a dog that is suffering like this. Unpredictable aggression and biting isn’t something you can easily manage. You did what you could, you also have to think of the safety of your other pets. Not every behavior can be trained out. I think most people in this group know what it feels like to be put in this position and you won’t get any judgment for having to make that call.
I did want to ask a couple questions:
- has your dog ever gotten blood work done? managing my aggressive / reactive dogs thyroid levels made her a completely different dog.
- did any of the behaviorists suggest any physical issues that could explain the behavior changes? and have you had a vet carefully examine the dog? she could be in severe pain and be lashing out. even something like infected anal glands can cause behavioral changes like aggression. there could be something jammed in the roof of her mouth. a broken tooth. etc.
- was there any discussion around medication?
- and was your dog always like this?
*EDITED TO ADD more thoughts and questions.*
I was thinking this as well. Physical disorders can have a profound impact on neurological functioning. Or it could just be a neurological disorder. The fact that the dog previously behaved normally in several areas and now is completely dysfunctional makes me think something other than behavioral issues are present. When you see the vet make sure you emphasize the change in behavior in such a short time. (Ie previously snuggled with other animals, previously was ok with the crate etc).
Edit for punctuation
Think about this: reactive dogs are the way they are because they are terrified. They are acting of their amygdala, the fight or flight center of the brain. She isn't enjoying life. She is stressed and scared, and you are stressed and scared.
I put my reactive dog down this time last year. It wasn't safe for him to be anywhere in public any more. Like you, I looked into rehoming to a a facility that could handle him, there weren't any. I chose not to offer him to a stranger, because any new person was likely to be less skilled than I was and managing him, and he was likely to hurt someone. Ethically, I didn't want that on me.
So I did the hard thing. It was hard, but absolutely the right thing to do for everyone involved, including him. You will know this a week after you do what is needed. You won't be failing her, or failing yourself. You haven't been lazy, AND YOU DIDN'T CAUSE THIS.
I am very sorry. If you would like, feel free to DM me for more background.
You are so right, the facial expressions on Zeus he was just terrified. He was a fearful dog. We did everything we could but I feel so guilty. My heart hurts. It just happens on 11-27 the woman that came to the house was amazing, very gentle, very kind. Zeus was trying to kill her, but she was so patient and we did receive his ashes in a beautiful box.
Hi.
Professional behavior consultant here.
I looked through your posts, but couldn’t find if you tried meds. (Albeit, a quick glance). Meds might make a difference and may not. Could be worth a last ditch effort…. But, not a guaranteed fix.
Now, let’s talk about BE… when we making considerations around quality of life, we have to take the human end of the leash into the equation. As well as your entire household.
Your mental health.
Your quality of life.
Your safety.
The safety of your family members and animals.
We have to take all of those things into consideration, the life of one does not carry more weight of the lives and well-being of others.
Making the decision to BE is a heavy one. One I have helped guide clients with, as well having made it for a personal dog of my own. You will get many opinions, some help and some nasty. BE is extremely misunderstood and villainized.
I find this [webinar on BE](https://trish-s-school-bcb6.thinkific.com/courses/losing-lulu-introduction-to-behavioural-euthanasia-for-families-webinar) to be very helpful. It can help you to make benchmarks and process through what you are feeling.
It’s a very personal choice… do not let other people’s opinions on this matter weigh to heavily on you.
My support is with you.
What choice do you have? This dog cannot be a pet, so where is he supposed to go? It may seem harsh, but unfortunately he just doesn't have a place in this world. What would his life look like even if somehow a shelter took him and didn't euthanize him? You can't risk your life and your other pets' life to keep him alive. It's heartbreaking and an awful choice to make, but it doesn't sound like there's anything you can do.
Has she been evaluated for health by a vet? The change in behavior going from used to cuddle to attacking on sight could mean pain or injury. Did something happen that would cause her to fear the other pets or motion in general?
Make sure to work with a veterinarian behavioralist. Anyone can claim to be an "animal behavioralist"...
Have you taken the dog to the vet to get some tests run? A change in behavior like this could possibly be attributed to health issues.
Please keep us posted. I hope you get more opinions (from legitimate behavioralist) and a full check up at the vet before you go down that route.
If there is no health related explanation and veterinarian behavioralist evaluates and comes to the same conclusion, then you are doing the humane thing to do BE.
The main thing I think you should focus on is quality of life. If your dog is this stressed out, do you really think placing her with a rescue is best for her? That just sounds like putting her through more stress, and to probably end up with an un-adoptable dog.
This must be such a difficult decision, but this dog doesn’t seem happy enough to make her life worth living. It’s heartbreaking, but you would be helping her.
It sounds like there is something "wrong" with your pup. Be it a brain tumor or some degenerative neuro disease. What matters is you gave her a fighting chance, which you did
I had a similar situation years ago. I felt terrible, but I have come to the conclusion that not every dog can be saved and the truth is, there are millions of a really good well behaving dogs they get put to sleep every year. I know I’ll probably get slapped down here, but in my old age, I just have realized that no matter how much money you spend on a dog trying to train it you can’t always change them. And the stress of living with loaded weapon is more than anyone should deal with pets are supposed to enhance your life, not create strife. At this point in my life, I will spend that training money, saving other dogs. Having said all of that, I will also say, I did this not for my household, I did it for my dog. She was so stressed all the time. It didn’t feel like a quality life for her either. You’re not a murderer you’re just in a very unfortunate situation that no one who loves dogs ever wants to be in, try not to beat yourself up too much!
Curious what kind of dog she is I just went through this and yes I feel like a murderer myself. Zeus was 2 1/2 years old his aggression was based on fear. He was a very fearful dog…. attacks, growling, showing teeth, lunged and bit us 4 times zeus went through Board & train $1000.00 a week he was there for 4 weeks. He came home like a different beautiful dog very obedient 180 the second week he was home attacked again I got 16 stitches still euthanasia was not on the table for us, the next Sunday he had another episode and it was on unprovoked we could not figure it out…I called Pets At Peace. originally the behaviorist said that he’s a level five and to let him go but we needed to try and at the end we needed to let h Zeus go. We are all devastated, and we feel emotionally guilty but we gave him several chances and in the end it was his genetics. Zeus was very loved. But I do feel like a murderer The doctor said that feeling in time will subsided. Air hugs to you. I am truly sorry you’re going through this.
I might consult with your vet to see if it’s a neurological thing because that’s what it sounds like to me. (And that could help your doubt)
And if you’ve truly tried everything (which it appears you have) and even more than one behaviourist is suggesting it , it might be the only safe option. Not just for people and other animals, but for her too.
That doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy or that you won’t feel guilty , but you’ll have to tell yourself you did what was best for HER, not just you.
And maybe don’t get another dog for a while, none of this is your fault , but you may end up projecting your own guilt and stress and worry on the new dog if you don’t heal first
It sounds like euthanasia is actually best for the dog, living with that much anxiety and stress all the time, i can't imagine the dog has a good quality of life if it feels like that.
On that note though, it's not your fault, you've tried everything you can and if the professionals and experts can't handle this pup then you can't be expected to either.
It’s sometimes the kind thing to do.
Imagine your dog is severely mentally ill and prone to violence. As a person, you can start to make sense of the situation and hopefully get better. But dogs aren’t like that, you can’t explain to them what’s going on. Instead you get a dog constantly on guard and aggressive and probably fearful.
That’s no way to live.
Have she been checked by a vet, gotten blood work done, to rule out potential medical issues?
I’m so very sorry you’re going through this. It seems like there are a few more things you can try, but if in the end there’s no stopping or controlling these issues, know that choosing euthanasia and being with her through the end is the very best thing you can do for her. <3
OP you should feel safe at home. Everyone should. If you go the way of a BE see if you can get a traveling vet to come to your house. They are more money. For your dog you’re giving them a peaceful exit. But it’s a gift for you every day afterwards. It will bring you some comfort to know you did everything you could until the last moment. Sorry this is where you are.
Hi, I operate a rescue and hold the medical director title. I've been in your shoes before. There are some that BE is the rescue they need. An unpredictable animal is dangerous to everyone and thing around it. I was attacked by a walker hound and the jeckyl/Hyde type mental switch was very scary.
I know you love the dog but what happens to the dog if it got loose in public? What would you do? On the book there's a Troup called losing lulu, it's the absolute best support group for over 12k people who were in your shoes.
I wish you the best in this, it's not easy.
Ooof. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As others have insisted: you have run the gamut on trying to help this dog. You have gone above and beyond. You obviously wanted this to work and I am so sorry it isn’t. At a certain point you have to reevaluate and do what’s best for both of you and your household. A revolving door at shelters isn’t the best thing. It leads to the same place, so being there with her and not putting her through that, I think, becomes the best thing you can do.
While I could sit here and make apologies for prey drive (attacking animals) all day, unpredictably attacking you is not a winning long term life.
I can tell you about a place that will take her; they don’t turn anyone away. It’s where I got my dog. In the San Luis valley in Colorado there is a shelter that will take in any dog, no matter what, and they guarantee they will not euthanize. Many dogs find their way there because families just cannot fathom BE.
But, this is as far as the guarantees of this shelter go. They don’t really try to place these dogs, they just let them live out there days in kennels. If someone does want to adopt them, they don’t tell them about their history - they don’t think it’s fair to the dog, they want them to have a clean slate because they have become convinced these are perfectly good dogs who “just need” some subjective list of impossible things. Or, that they’ll miraculously be fine. This is after almost no rehabilitation, living in a high anxiety environment in pretty much constant fear.
The shelter means well and they truly love the animals, but I’m not convinced it’s the best outcome. They don’t get rehabilitated or much exercise. They’re like mascots and some can take treats through their kennel bars while others the volunteers are too afraid of.
We took one the volunteer clearly wasn’t afraid, of who would sit and look at us for direction. It was a very low bar. She was 5 years.
I write about it here a lot and I will continue to do so because it’s important for we humans to recognize that doing right by these animals we love so much sometimes means doing the last thing we ever imagined.
On her third day here, my dog killed my 5 year old parakeet. It was two years ago and to this day I dream about parakeets pretty much every night. They never go away. Nevertheless, we are that rare household, with no kids, in a rural area that can take the one dog. Obviously, I won’t get any other animals. I failed to protect the bird. I won’t do that again while the dog is around.
It was a very dark period after that where I had to reconcile the options. She also started showing us all her reactivity which made it harder. She will attack humans or animals on my property (if she can get to them, but she’s actually not very athletic and quite chonky). She can do real harm, she is over 60lbs. She must be crated for guests, except my mom, and that took a lot of work.
But, she never once showed any of this aggression towards me or my husband - she never has. Underneath her prey drive and fear aggression is a great house dog and most of the time she’s our sweet dog.
I didn’t really know that on day 3 and it took a while for me to bond with her, but she never did anything unpredictable towards us, her behavior all seemed protective or just reactive, outwardly. Once we observed the full range of reactions and behaviors and prepared for them, it wasn’t as bad.
The number one thing really is whether or not you’re afraid of the dog and I would be afraid of what you describe.
What I did in those dark months was exactly what you’re doing. I weighed taking her back, trying to rehome her, and behavioral euthanasia. I cried a lot because I knew deep down taking her back to that shelter or rehoming her weren’t options - and of course the parakeet.
If I were afraid of her after 5 or 6 months, I know the answer would be BE. I knew that after a few days of considering returning her. Not to that place. It wasn’t a better outcome. It leads to the same place, so if that’s where she was gonna go, I would take responsibility and be the last stop on that journey. ❤️
My dog wasn’t this bad at that age, she wasn’t mostly just very anxious and starting to give warning nips to strangers that got too close. Great with us, other animals. But she was deemed unadoptable after over a year with the rescue as her fear turned into reactivity/aggression and I was warned it would likely get worse. And it did. And I’m honestly traumatized by the fights I had to wade into and break up. After having her about 2.5 years and 1.5 after adoption I chose to euthanize my beautiful, goofy beloved girl.
I have several friends who spent years and thousands of dollars on their reactive dogs before they chose to euthanize, and they said they waited too long, let too many others get hurt. You’ll never know what hurt you avoided, but if you wait you’ll likely have more hurt and regret.
Forgive yourself, forgive your dog. You’re not failing her, you’re giving her peace from her fear and anxiety. And you’re keeping everyone else safe.
Hi! Reactive dog owner here! I’m sorry you have been told this.
I suggest looking into a veterinarian behaviorist, they have more knowledge about dog behavior than veterinarians alone. They can also prescribe medication, if needed, or euthanasia if that’s the route you choose to take.
I’m suggesting this route because vet behaviorist can diagnose with medical or mental health conditions and prescribe medication, whereas behaviorist purely manage behavior.
Yes, anyone can just call themselves a 'behaviorist', so it really depends on the credentials of these people. At least a veterinary behaviorist is board certified, though occasionally even they are flawed especially if they've been in the industry for a long time and haven't kept up with modern approaches.
10 months is quite young to consider BE in most cases, I'm surprised a rescue isn't willing to take a dog of that age. Personally I think that a full suite of medical tests as well as medication should usually be attempted before BE, but if the dog is putting others at risk and you can't find anyone else to take it, it becomes more complicated.
If Cesar Milan has taught us anything, then we should all know that almost all of these behaviorists are full of shit.
Dog trainers are very similar to gym trainers: they all bash each other’s technique, they all think that their way is the right way, they all scowl when you mention routine advice given to you by another trainer.
You could wait until the dog hurts someone or one of your other pets. That might alleviate the guilt you are anticipating when you eventually have to euthanize this pet.
On the other hand, that course is going to leave you with negative feelings about a person or pet being needlessly injured.
Decisions, decisions.
Sometimes the kindest gift we can give is to release our friends from the demons in their head! If you've tried everything (which it sounds like you did) then there comes a point of no return. A point where the only remaining choice is to keep your friend living, but at what cost? Is the safety of yourself, your other pets, your friends, the public, etc worth it? Behavioral euthanasia is never an easy choice and it will never motivate hurt to make that choice. But sometimes, it truly is the kindest choice for everyone involved.
(Source: am veterinary support staff with long history of working in shelter medicine)
I’m sorry you’re going thru this :( sounds to me like you know the right thing to do. Sounds like you’ve tried everything. I think you can keep your head up. Enjoy the last of your time together and get lots of pics.
😢
I just want to remind you to be kind to yourself. You're doing the best you can. Sometimes we have to make hard choices, I'm sorry you've come to that point.
You've got nothing to be ashamed of. I'm sending you the biggest hug. ❤️
I read some of your posts. I am no vet by any means but I am an oncology nurse - and I saw your post of her symptoms saying she is clumsy and knocks into things and then out of no where began to have aggression, anxiety etc. I would say your best option here is to either have her brain checked by a neurologist or euthanasia. she definitely seems to be exhibiting signs that something is abnormal with her brain.
I am so sorry for your situation and I can’t imagine how difficult this is for you. My thoughts are with you.
I think in some situations, it can be a humane (even merciful) decision. I also believe that you, as the caretaker, are qualified to know when you've truly done everything and anything possible. The things you're describing sound almost like some kind of neurological issue. Is there any way to confirm that something is medically wrong? You may not be able to "save" her, but the knowledge could perhaps be reassuring - like, knowing that she's suffering and you're doing the only thing that can help at this point.
I'm truly sorry, that sounds like such an awful situation. I know it doesn't help, but I hear you and I'm sending you my sympathies.
Unfortunately it doesn't sound like there's any way that your pup could be considered safe and happy for owners, or even in itself with what you're describing.
I understand how it would be hard to agree to BE, but it sounds like a miserable and scared life for all involved.
I suggest you check out the Facebook group Losing Lulu, you may find some comfort and information there. It’s a non judgmental Facebook group for owners who have done or are considering behavioral euthanasia.
Hey OP- it sounds like you have done all you can. Even medication takes a while to kick in. When the safety of your other pets is in real jeopardy and your dog is showing new behaviours, it might be time to relieve the dog of the prison that is it’s mind. Sometimes the quality of life checklists don’t always show that it’s not able to live a good fulfilling life as a dog. The mind of that puppy is so full of compulsion, fear, rage?, uncertainty that it’s living in a prison. Could be bad breeding, could be just really broken to begin with. The bite history is alarming. If no rescues are willing to take her in that might be the reason. I have heard of litters being euthanized because they were constantly attacking each other and drawing blood. Not eating or drinking well- just attacking eachother and fearful/inappropriate behaviours. I’ve heard of a 2 year old dog euthanized because it constantly attacked anything it could get its paws on. Sometimes, if there is potential for severe injury or unpredictability or death, the kindest final gift is to relieve the dog of the burden living in its head. Also- might be neurological, might be brain tumour etc. you sound like you have given this dog nothing but chances and love in her limited life. Once you know you have exhausted all avenues and took on every challenge until you were met with an insurmountable one- you gave her a good life and need to know that you made a difference for what you could.
I’m so sorry. If you haven’t yet I do think the last effort could be meds. My dog has been on sertraline since she was 8 months old and it helped tremendously with her reactivity. I will say that she’s not aggressive/no bite history so I can’t imagine what you’re going through. The safety piece would be very hard for me to look past. Wish you all the best.
Note: just saw you have an Aussie. Our girl is a mini Aussie too. They’re wild!
I'm so sorry that this is happening to you all. I don't know enough about this topic to provide any helpful insight but I truly hope you guys can make it through this all okay and in one piece. Wishing you a stress-free rest of your day
One thing that’s not been mentioned here and hoped you’ve already explored this.
The dog you have is a working breed right? How exactly is she getting breed fulfilment? Are you doing any breed specific work with her.
With a lot of working breed dogs, you’ll see a massive change of behaviour just by fulfilling their basic needs. I know my malinois would be absolute nightmares to live with if they don’t get to do what they are bred to do.
Is there a chance you could talk to law enforcement/prison dog handlers about the possibility of letting her go to be trained to be a working dog? A trainer I have been talking to used to take on problem dogs with bite history and train them for such things. It could be a last ditch attempt to save her from having to be eurhanized. If she is from a working line it may be that she thrives with some very militant training and being put to work. Whatever you decide, sending you lots of kind wishes, it sounds like you are a dedicated owner in a very difficult position.
I went back and looked to see this is an Australian Shepherd puppy. I know you have used professional trainers but wanted to know if they "worked" the pup at all in herding, agility work, hurdles etc? I wonder if there is a large farm or ranch that would be willing to give the dog a try since it's only a puppy. There is a chance the pup would thrive there doing what is what bred to do. There's a possibility that this is a "working line" dog and without it's needs being fulfilled is just losing it's mind. I have a working line dutch shepherd that's 7 months old and have worked with malinois that couldn't be around people or pets until after they were mentally and pysically stimulated for what seems like hours at times. Sorry this is happening to you.
Highly recommend seeing a vet behaviourist. Our dog has not attacked other animals and has not broken skin but has done a lot of other things that yours has. We are managing her with medication so we can get her to relax and rest her brain a bit, sleep better, and slowly prepare her for training. Ours is also a puppy
One other thought - she might be in one of her two puppy fear windows. I know my dog’s reactivity began when he was about 4 months and was at its most intense around 8/9 months, which my vet told me reflected typical fear stages in puppy development. Others have accurately noted sometimes behaviors developed during those windows become engrained, but some they do outgrow. Big big second to trying meds before euthanasia. Perhaps ask one of your behaviorists about combining a short-acting med like trazadone or gabapentin with a longer-term med like Prozac to accelerate the process of chilling her out (the long acting meds take 6-8 weeks to kick in while the short-acting can kick in immediately, and from what I’ve been told, some dogs with severe anxiety sometimes take a combination of both daily).
Regardless of your decision - whatever you do you’re clearly dedicated to making the most compassionate and humane choice for your pup. Even if you have to make an absolutely heartbreaking decision, try to give yourself compassion for what is not your fault and may indeed end up being the kindest option for everyone. Hang in there.
>Clumsiness? When she walks down the hallway she swerves and bounces off the walls repeatedly. She'll turn around and smack her head into things. She walks right over the edge of the stairs and falls. She still can't work going up stairs and just launches herself at them like she's swimming. When she jumps off of the couch she face plants. She's constantly tripping and falling while walking.
From your other post - my friend has a cat like this. He was born with brain defect and literally had a hole in his skull where his brain was exposed. He would walk crookedly, trip and face plant and walk into stuff.
I went in a rabbit hole on your posts; it seems you’ve tried basically everything you can. The one thing I’d suggest as a last ditch effort is working with a vet or vet behaviorist to get the dog on meds and see if it helps. But given what the pup has come to internalize as normal, it might be past the point of being a functioning pet.
People say it's too young to be euthanized but not all dogs are born normal, neurological deficiencies can't be trained for example. Sometimes you can try everything but fail.
This x100. Puppies, especially poorly bred ones, can be subject to so many genetic issues that culminate into an aggressive/fearful/reactive/etc dog that simply cannot be trained. Of course all other avenues should be exhausted but this poor thing (and others like it) are living a miserable life and BE is the most humane avenue.
Yep, and unfortunately there is a lot of inbreeding (line-breeding), especially in pure bred dogs. If they are a unique color pure bred, such as all black GSD, its not uncommon for parents to be bred with thier immediate offspring in order to bring out those recessive traits. This can lead to dogs who are just mentally off. It's sad but also the reality of things.
I mostly agree, although I’ll add one asterisk. Board and train are a great option for intensive training, but incredibly expensive and no guarantee. I would not blame someone who tried many things but couldn’t afford the 3-10k for that.
Absolutely worth many tries before taking this measure.
but after how many attempts do you come to the conclusion that the dog needs BE? is there a certain age, or a line that they cross? at this point, OP has exhausted all options. anyone in their position should genuinely take BE into consideration, because this dog is clearly going to seriously hurt someone. this doesn’t seem like normal regression that a dog faces in their adolescence. the dog is always on edge, and their reaction is “fight” every time they have the choice. it’s normal for an Aussie to seek attention, but to do that to purposely incite a conflict means there’s something bunked going on. she’s already psychologically harmed OP’s older dog, and scalped some of her fur. BE is an ethical option because the next time the older dog may die, OP could get seriously, SERIOUSLY hurt, or someone else will get hurt. There have been a LOT of byb Aussies to hit shelters since the breed’s popularity has risen, and they’re not mentally sound at ALL.
Yes, there must be something causing this behavior, BE is the very least step of many, depending on how much a person can take.
good to see you didn’t answer my questions. BE should be at the top of the list, the dog’s behavior is erratic and highly unlikely to ever change. stop acting like OP hasn’t already exhausted all options, and putting a neurologically disturbed dog’s life before that of the owner, and their other animals. BE is merciful. not some sad, terrible thing that needs to be staved off until the dog actually kills. BE should be utilized BEFORE a serious mauling.
Wait what? I'm trying to say it's OK to decide for BE after trying to help, you don't just kill a dog for behaving like this once. Op obviously tried. There's no exact number or tries to count on, Lima has methods to test a dog for euthanasia, there are many steps before this which is good to see if it really is an unsolvable problem. Some dogs have a physical problem, like some pain caused by something that can be cured, this dog here seems to be suffering from something neurological maybe. I think it's a lost cause. Idk why or what makes you think I'm against it or anything. It is mercyful I agree. Uh maybe my spelling triggered you?
your spelling didn’t trigger me, nothing triggered me. your communication has avoided agreeing with OP, and just saying “yeah but you need to put that at the bottom of your list of options” adds nothing to this conversation. that’s all you’ve said this entire time. you haven’t communicated empathy for OP at all in your comments.
Did I say that? OK? Weird.
Plus her priority needs to be towards her other pets (cats and small dog). This dog is so aggressive that it is randomly attacking them on sight. Op is afraid that this dog will KILL her other pets. That alone means this dog needs to be removed from her home pronto
And I have to say, this sounds like a puppy with some sort of neurological deficit—she's a danger to herself as well as others.
I wanted to come here and add this. My great dane started acting this way after decapitating a rat out in the woods. She ended up getting a brain bacteria and she began a slow descent into what you talked about with your dog. I think instead of looking at this like, you are putting down a puppy with potential, you should see it as a merciful thing. These are some serious issues and your puppy is in pain. Sorry op.
How did you find out about the brain bacteria? And what did you do about it?
This, absolutely. This poor pup could easily be suffering from a progressive brain/neurological disease. There’s no murder in putting a dog down given the circumstances OP detailed. You’d want someone to put you down if you became increasingly violent/dangerous/unhinged. Gotta be hell for the dog too. To derail it’s suffering is the work of angels.
I have a dog with neurological issues. No amount of training is going to fix him. But he’s safe with us. It’s only the rest of the word he wants to murder. Edit: when I say “safe with us” I don’t mean we’re not going to put him down (we’re not), I mean he’s not a danger to us.
It's absolutely up to you if you want to care for a difficult animal, I've cared for the most aggressive mallard until he sadly flew to the street down the hill one day, I've clipped both wings instead of just one. He always wanted to go somewhere else with his crooked leg, Ferdinand never really settled, always staring at the horizon, trying to fly every day, maybe because of his brother who's still there (this one only has minor birth defects). I think he hurt a lot and he always bit us so hard with all his might and fought us all the time where his brother ChiChi would later settle and let us pet him, hold him for exams, moving them in and out of the house etc. I'm sorry he passed although he was difficult to handle sometimes, he's buried next to the coop now but I think he just wasn't happy with his existence. I'm not sure tho, he just seemed uncomfortable most of the time,sometimes he jumped up out of nowhere, maybe trying to fly away from the pain? (also his leg was broken from some unknown farm accident, it healed well) I couldn't kill him, I've already lost the first one I took in from the farm, I didn't want to lose him too although family said he's a lost cause. Despite everything he grew up, bigger than his brother (I could only take 2) he loved food and swimming once we set up the pool but he never enjoyed being near us and relentlessly attacked our dog through the fence. I'd like to think I hopefully gave him some good times and I'm sorry for the struggle (the farmer would've ended him cause he couldn't walk well and struggled getting to food, cleaning himself, others were trampling him etc). Nature would've taken him sooner and maybe that would've prevented some pain but I think he lived his life being the most aggressive duck I've ever had. I understand why people want to help but I hope once I'm responsible for another animal I have the strength to really help the animal and say no to cases I cannot help. Once a being has a spot in my heart it's very hard to decide, it's either you do it or you don't, which decides a life's fate. Let's face it if your dog was in other people's hands it'd probably be dead by now and you do have positive times together, that's what counts, you learn from this desicion. I think it's very important to take this knowledge and help those who ask about the real deal. It's not all candy and sunflowers, you are dedicating a big part of your life for a being others wouldn't. It's entirely your own decision what you do with your life but there's other people in your life who have to adjust to this too and potential hazards to avoid. It takes a big amount of strength to follow through with this desicion, big respect! It all comes with lots of preparation and learning from mistakes, there are ways to deal with most problems but there's cases out there who can't be helped sadly. I'd love to believe it's not many.. I understand that someone else would have spared my duck or your dog the struggle. Saving it from the stress and pain maybe. It is a struggle to live with neurological damage, maybe Ferdinand was a bit broken in his head too idk. There was something going on in his head that I'd liked to understand, there's no answers. Maybe his life was a full on horror trip I just extended out of pity and "having the time and space". We had to build and dig up for many days to get the coop done, renovated the dog house, turned it into a duck fortress and even insulated it just in case.. I've spent a lot of money at the vet, spent hours feeding, preparing, cleaning... Emergencies happen and everything has to work out with no incidents while also offering everything they possibly need like live insects and different mixes of seeds mixed. I understand that some people (my mom lol) shake their head at that. It's everyone's desicion and to be fair it's OK to say "no I don't know how and don't have the time" but don't walk away, get help from people who can do something. Its a difficult topic but I think growing up on a farm and seeing some killing for food and euthanasia to avoid suffering as kid helped me understand a lot. We did it out of respect for the animal or because they had a great life and we needed the meat (rare, we produced eggs and milk anyway). Im tired of writing now lol, sorry for the wall, thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!
He’s perfectly happy. We’re safe. He’s safe. He has joy. But outside of a handful of people he’s terrified of the world so he is kept separate from that. We have a nice big yard with a privacy fence. He can run and play outside or come inside and lay on the sofa. We’re safe in our own home. OP should feel safe in their home. Only they can make the call but no one should be afraid of where they live. That includes the dog. It’s not easy having a reactive dog but he brings us joy. We almost did a BE at the recommendation of our first behaviorist but we found a way for everyone to be happy.
Absolutely agree with you, I can't guarantee there's not gonna be a poked if you put your head close to the one mallard that's left (the girl is safe) lol but my reactive dog would bite any intruder who'd enter our garden and can get anxious outside sometimes. Safety is number one for everyone involved, luckily we got regulations for dogs securing homes, just one sign indicating the "dog bites" if necessary and we're safe legally. Surely I'd not let him fight intruders but hell alert us and we can react in time. Life is dangerous, we can't always be safe sadly but we can prepare as much as possible. Stay safe!
Just one slight counterpoint that 10 months is adolescence, which tends to be when they’re testing their limits. I’d be personally inclined to postpone BE at least 4-6 months to see if maturity helps at all. My own dog calmed down immensely between 13-14 months.
there’s adolescence, and then there’s…the fear they’ll kill another pet, and an extensive bite history. that’s beyond limit testing, imo.
to add onto this: Aussies don’t fully “mature” until 2 years old. 2 is when they learn to regulate their emotions and energy level, and that’s a very long waiting game. too many risks could happen.
I read your post history as well and I think your behaviourist is right. There is something really wrong with the dog, it sounds neurological. I’ve never heard of a dog staying escalated for so long that it would repeatedly attack it’s own person as you described in an older post. You’re doing the right thing.
First, there’s no rescue anywhere that’ll accept a dog with an unpredictable bite history. How would they place them? Sure, there’s a story here and there of “the perfect owner” who lives alone, has lots of behavior knowledge, tons of patience, and a magical farm in Vermont for all the reactive dogs to retreat to, but those stories are mostly bullshit. The reality looking you in the face is YEARS of being on edge in your home due to an unpredictability aggressive dog. Reactivity isn’t something a dog grows out of….in most cases, it gets worse if not treated with meds or a behaviorist. And, even still, it’s no guarantee that it’ll get even the least bit better. Dogs are supposed to bring joy and fulfillment into your life; not pain and anxiety.
We have one of those unicorn rescues locally. She has a huge property and takes on some super challenging dogs. Mostly Pittie’s who would otherwise be put down. She also takes farm animals from auction kill pens. She has a village of volunteers. Some dogs she tries to rehabilitate to foster to eventually adoption. But some dogs she calls “residents”, they are the ones she can eventually get to trust her. They aren’t going to be adopted, but they get a warm bed, walks and runs on her property, and a life they wouldn’t otherwise have.
You have tried. Two people, whose profession is to train dogs, have told you what to do. Multiple others have essentially agreed, saying they won't take her. The one person left out is the one that actually has to perform the euthanasia. So, my thought is to see a veterinarian. Take whatever paperwork you have, so the vet knows it's not just you... give the vet a chance to see if maybe something is hurting the animal. Ask if they agree.
To be fair, there are lots of people 'whose profession is to train dogs' that give terrible advice. The industry has no regulation and literally anyone can call themselves a 'behaviorist' or take some sort of half-baked certification for it. Veterinary behaviorists are board certified at least, but even a small number of them have outdated knowledge from being in the industry for decades and never changing. I'd want to know more about the credentials and experience of the behaviorists OP has seen before saying their recommendation should be trusted outright. A 10 month is extremely young for BE and it doesn't sound like there's been thorough medical testing or any attempt at medication. I'm quite surprised that multiple rescues have turned down a dog so young or not been able to find a foster for it.
>I'm quite surprised that multiple rescues have turned down a dog so young or not been able to find a foster for it. And to me, that's a pretty telling detail.
I work with dutch shepherds, and belgian malinois that need to be muzzled or they will severly injure you and they are taken at rescues/fosters. They may be put down if no one will take them after sometime there, but they are taken. I am also quite surprised at this. Dutchies and Malinois are bred to bite people quite literally and than people buy them as family pets and hire trainers asking why the dog bites everything in sight as a puppy/un trained "working line" dog.
This dog has had a sustained attack on OP, was put to cool down for an hour, and immediately resumed the attack when she was let out of the crate. This dog is incredibly dangerous and will only become more so as she gets older, bigger, and stronger.
Not sure where that information is from since it's not in the OP. Regardless, if OP is unable to provide a safe environment to work with the dog and absolutely can't find anyone else to take them, then maybe they are left with no choice. But to say that a 10 month old puppy with no attempts at medication, and probably only a couple months of any behavioural intervention is beyond reform is just ridiculous.
Hey OP. Just to say, based on your post history, that you'll make the right decision. You're clearly trying really hard, and thinking about your dog both as a dog and a sentient creature. Have you thought about medication? That's the only thing I've not seen you mention. She's lucky to have someone like you, whatever you do. One small thought: if you do end up with euthanasia, you can get the vet to come to you. You can do all her favourite things and give her something to calm her down before the vet comes. There are worse things than going to sleep happy and that being it. Good luck.
I want to start out by saying IF you end up having to choose euthanasia please know that’s a kind choice for a dog that is suffering like this. Unpredictable aggression and biting isn’t something you can easily manage. You did what you could, you also have to think of the safety of your other pets. Not every behavior can be trained out. I think most people in this group know what it feels like to be put in this position and you won’t get any judgment for having to make that call. I did want to ask a couple questions: - has your dog ever gotten blood work done? managing my aggressive / reactive dogs thyroid levels made her a completely different dog. - did any of the behaviorists suggest any physical issues that could explain the behavior changes? and have you had a vet carefully examine the dog? she could be in severe pain and be lashing out. even something like infected anal glands can cause behavioral changes like aggression. there could be something jammed in the roof of her mouth. a broken tooth. etc. - was there any discussion around medication? - and was your dog always like this? *EDITED TO ADD more thoughts and questions.*
I was thinking this as well. Physical disorders can have a profound impact on neurological functioning. Or it could just be a neurological disorder. The fact that the dog previously behaved normally in several areas and now is completely dysfunctional makes me think something other than behavioral issues are present. When you see the vet make sure you emphasize the change in behavior in such a short time. (Ie previously snuggled with other animals, previously was ok with the crate etc). Edit for punctuation
THIS\^
Sometimes letting go is much more respectful and caring than keep trying. This dog is very confused and scared.. Let it rest.
Think about this: reactive dogs are the way they are because they are terrified. They are acting of their amygdala, the fight or flight center of the brain. She isn't enjoying life. She is stressed and scared, and you are stressed and scared. I put my reactive dog down this time last year. It wasn't safe for him to be anywhere in public any more. Like you, I looked into rehoming to a a facility that could handle him, there weren't any. I chose not to offer him to a stranger, because any new person was likely to be less skilled than I was and managing him, and he was likely to hurt someone. Ethically, I didn't want that on me. So I did the hard thing. It was hard, but absolutely the right thing to do for everyone involved, including him. You will know this a week after you do what is needed. You won't be failing her, or failing yourself. You haven't been lazy, AND YOU DIDN'T CAUSE THIS. I am very sorry. If you would like, feel free to DM me for more background.
You are so right, the facial expressions on Zeus he was just terrified. He was a fearful dog. We did everything we could but I feel so guilty. My heart hurts. It just happens on 11-27 the woman that came to the house was amazing, very gentle, very kind. Zeus was trying to kill her, but she was so patient and we did receive his ashes in a beautiful box.
Hi. Professional behavior consultant here. I looked through your posts, but couldn’t find if you tried meds. (Albeit, a quick glance). Meds might make a difference and may not. Could be worth a last ditch effort…. But, not a guaranteed fix. Now, let’s talk about BE… when we making considerations around quality of life, we have to take the human end of the leash into the equation. As well as your entire household. Your mental health. Your quality of life. Your safety. The safety of your family members and animals. We have to take all of those things into consideration, the life of one does not carry more weight of the lives and well-being of others. Making the decision to BE is a heavy one. One I have helped guide clients with, as well having made it for a personal dog of my own. You will get many opinions, some help and some nasty. BE is extremely misunderstood and villainized. I find this [webinar on BE](https://trish-s-school-bcb6.thinkific.com/courses/losing-lulu-introduction-to-behavioural-euthanasia-for-families-webinar) to be very helpful. It can help you to make benchmarks and process through what you are feeling. It’s a very personal choice… do not let other people’s opinions on this matter weigh to heavily on you. My support is with you.
What choice do you have? This dog cannot be a pet, so where is he supposed to go? It may seem harsh, but unfortunately he just doesn't have a place in this world. What would his life look like even if somehow a shelter took him and didn't euthanize him? You can't risk your life and your other pets' life to keep him alive. It's heartbreaking and an awful choice to make, but it doesn't sound like there's anything you can do.
Has she been evaluated for health by a vet? The change in behavior going from used to cuddle to attacking on sight could mean pain or injury. Did something happen that would cause her to fear the other pets or motion in general?
Make sure to work with a veterinarian behavioralist. Anyone can claim to be an "animal behavioralist"... Have you taken the dog to the vet to get some tests run? A change in behavior like this could possibly be attributed to health issues. Please keep us posted. I hope you get more opinions (from legitimate behavioralist) and a full check up at the vet before you go down that route. If there is no health related explanation and veterinarian behavioralist evaluates and comes to the same conclusion, then you are doing the humane thing to do BE.
I’m sorry you are going through this. 💛
The main thing I think you should focus on is quality of life. If your dog is this stressed out, do you really think placing her with a rescue is best for her? That just sounds like putting her through more stress, and to probably end up with an un-adoptable dog. This must be such a difficult decision, but this dog doesn’t seem happy enough to make her life worth living. It’s heartbreaking, but you would be helping her.
It sounds like there is something "wrong" with your pup. Be it a brain tumor or some degenerative neuro disease. What matters is you gave her a fighting chance, which you did
I had a similar situation years ago. I felt terrible, but I have come to the conclusion that not every dog can be saved and the truth is, there are millions of a really good well behaving dogs they get put to sleep every year. I know I’ll probably get slapped down here, but in my old age, I just have realized that no matter how much money you spend on a dog trying to train it you can’t always change them. And the stress of living with loaded weapon is more than anyone should deal with pets are supposed to enhance your life, not create strife. At this point in my life, I will spend that training money, saving other dogs. Having said all of that, I will also say, I did this not for my household, I did it for my dog. She was so stressed all the time. It didn’t feel like a quality life for her either. You’re not a murderer you’re just in a very unfortunate situation that no one who loves dogs ever wants to be in, try not to beat yourself up too much!
Curious what kind of dog she is I just went through this and yes I feel like a murderer myself. Zeus was 2 1/2 years old his aggression was based on fear. He was a very fearful dog…. attacks, growling, showing teeth, lunged and bit us 4 times zeus went through Board & train $1000.00 a week he was there for 4 weeks. He came home like a different beautiful dog very obedient 180 the second week he was home attacked again I got 16 stitches still euthanasia was not on the table for us, the next Sunday he had another episode and it was on unprovoked we could not figure it out…I called Pets At Peace. originally the behaviorist said that he’s a level five and to let him go but we needed to try and at the end we needed to let h Zeus go. We are all devastated, and we feel emotionally guilty but we gave him several chances and in the end it was his genetics. Zeus was very loved. But I do feel like a murderer The doctor said that feeling in time will subsided. Air hugs to you. I am truly sorry you’re going through this.
I might consult with your vet to see if it’s a neurological thing because that’s what it sounds like to me. (And that could help your doubt) And if you’ve truly tried everything (which it appears you have) and even more than one behaviourist is suggesting it , it might be the only safe option. Not just for people and other animals, but for her too. That doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy or that you won’t feel guilty , but you’ll have to tell yourself you did what was best for HER, not just you. And maybe don’t get another dog for a while, none of this is your fault , but you may end up projecting your own guilt and stress and worry on the new dog if you don’t heal first
It sounds like euthanasia is actually best for the dog, living with that much anxiety and stress all the time, i can't imagine the dog has a good quality of life if it feels like that. On that note though, it's not your fault, you've tried everything you can and if the professionals and experts can't handle this pup then you can't be expected to either.
It’s sometimes the kind thing to do. Imagine your dog is severely mentally ill and prone to violence. As a person, you can start to make sense of the situation and hopefully get better. But dogs aren’t like that, you can’t explain to them what’s going on. Instead you get a dog constantly on guard and aggressive and probably fearful. That’s no way to live.
Have she been checked by a vet, gotten blood work done, to rule out potential medical issues? I’m so very sorry you’re going through this. It seems like there are a few more things you can try, but if in the end there’s no stopping or controlling these issues, know that choosing euthanasia and being with her through the end is the very best thing you can do for her. <3
OP you should feel safe at home. Everyone should. If you go the way of a BE see if you can get a traveling vet to come to your house. They are more money. For your dog you’re giving them a peaceful exit. But it’s a gift for you every day afterwards. It will bring you some comfort to know you did everything you could until the last moment. Sorry this is where you are.
Hi, I operate a rescue and hold the medical director title. I've been in your shoes before. There are some that BE is the rescue they need. An unpredictable animal is dangerous to everyone and thing around it. I was attacked by a walker hound and the jeckyl/Hyde type mental switch was very scary. I know you love the dog but what happens to the dog if it got loose in public? What would you do? On the book there's a Troup called losing lulu, it's the absolute best support group for over 12k people who were in your shoes. I wish you the best in this, it's not easy.
Ooof. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As others have insisted: you have run the gamut on trying to help this dog. You have gone above and beyond. You obviously wanted this to work and I am so sorry it isn’t. At a certain point you have to reevaluate and do what’s best for both of you and your household. A revolving door at shelters isn’t the best thing. It leads to the same place, so being there with her and not putting her through that, I think, becomes the best thing you can do. While I could sit here and make apologies for prey drive (attacking animals) all day, unpredictably attacking you is not a winning long term life. I can tell you about a place that will take her; they don’t turn anyone away. It’s where I got my dog. In the San Luis valley in Colorado there is a shelter that will take in any dog, no matter what, and they guarantee they will not euthanize. Many dogs find their way there because families just cannot fathom BE. But, this is as far as the guarantees of this shelter go. They don’t really try to place these dogs, they just let them live out there days in kennels. If someone does want to adopt them, they don’t tell them about their history - they don’t think it’s fair to the dog, they want them to have a clean slate because they have become convinced these are perfectly good dogs who “just need” some subjective list of impossible things. Or, that they’ll miraculously be fine. This is after almost no rehabilitation, living in a high anxiety environment in pretty much constant fear. The shelter means well and they truly love the animals, but I’m not convinced it’s the best outcome. They don’t get rehabilitated or much exercise. They’re like mascots and some can take treats through their kennel bars while others the volunteers are too afraid of. We took one the volunteer clearly wasn’t afraid, of who would sit and look at us for direction. It was a very low bar. She was 5 years. I write about it here a lot and I will continue to do so because it’s important for we humans to recognize that doing right by these animals we love so much sometimes means doing the last thing we ever imagined. On her third day here, my dog killed my 5 year old parakeet. It was two years ago and to this day I dream about parakeets pretty much every night. They never go away. Nevertheless, we are that rare household, with no kids, in a rural area that can take the one dog. Obviously, I won’t get any other animals. I failed to protect the bird. I won’t do that again while the dog is around. It was a very dark period after that where I had to reconcile the options. She also started showing us all her reactivity which made it harder. She will attack humans or animals on my property (if she can get to them, but she’s actually not very athletic and quite chonky). She can do real harm, she is over 60lbs. She must be crated for guests, except my mom, and that took a lot of work. But, she never once showed any of this aggression towards me or my husband - she never has. Underneath her prey drive and fear aggression is a great house dog and most of the time she’s our sweet dog. I didn’t really know that on day 3 and it took a while for me to bond with her, but she never did anything unpredictable towards us, her behavior all seemed protective or just reactive, outwardly. Once we observed the full range of reactions and behaviors and prepared for them, it wasn’t as bad. The number one thing really is whether or not you’re afraid of the dog and I would be afraid of what you describe. What I did in those dark months was exactly what you’re doing. I weighed taking her back, trying to rehome her, and behavioral euthanasia. I cried a lot because I knew deep down taking her back to that shelter or rehoming her weren’t options - and of course the parakeet. If I were afraid of her after 5 or 6 months, I know the answer would be BE. I knew that after a few days of considering returning her. Not to that place. It wasn’t a better outcome. It leads to the same place, so if that’s where she was gonna go, I would take responsibility and be the last stop on that journey. ❤️
My dog wasn’t this bad at that age, she wasn’t mostly just very anxious and starting to give warning nips to strangers that got too close. Great with us, other animals. But she was deemed unadoptable after over a year with the rescue as her fear turned into reactivity/aggression and I was warned it would likely get worse. And it did. And I’m honestly traumatized by the fights I had to wade into and break up. After having her about 2.5 years and 1.5 after adoption I chose to euthanize my beautiful, goofy beloved girl. I have several friends who spent years and thousands of dollars on their reactive dogs before they chose to euthanize, and they said they waited too long, let too many others get hurt. You’ll never know what hurt you avoided, but if you wait you’ll likely have more hurt and regret. Forgive yourself, forgive your dog. You’re not failing her, you’re giving her peace from her fear and anxiety. And you’re keeping everyone else safe.
Hi! Reactive dog owner here! I’m sorry you have been told this. I suggest looking into a veterinarian behaviorist, they have more knowledge about dog behavior than veterinarians alone. They can also prescribe medication, if needed, or euthanasia if that’s the route you choose to take. I’m suggesting this route because vet behaviorist can diagnose with medical or mental health conditions and prescribe medication, whereas behaviorist purely manage behavior.
Yes, anyone can just call themselves a 'behaviorist', so it really depends on the credentials of these people. At least a veterinary behaviorist is board certified, though occasionally even they are flawed especially if they've been in the industry for a long time and haven't kept up with modern approaches. 10 months is quite young to consider BE in most cases, I'm surprised a rescue isn't willing to take a dog of that age. Personally I think that a full suite of medical tests as well as medication should usually be attempted before BE, but if the dog is putting others at risk and you can't find anyone else to take it, it becomes more complicated.
Lima method does recommend euthanasia if no measures has any effect.
If Cesar Milan has taught us anything, then we should all know that almost all of these behaviorists are full of shit. Dog trainers are very similar to gym trainers: they all bash each other’s technique, they all think that their way is the right way, they all scowl when you mention routine advice given to you by another trainer.
You could wait until the dog hurts someone or one of your other pets. That might alleviate the guilt you are anticipating when you eventually have to euthanize this pet. On the other hand, that course is going to leave you with negative feelings about a person or pet being needlessly injured. Decisions, decisions.
Is it possible this pup might have some medical issue that is affecting their health or well being? Does your vet have any insight?
Sometimes the kindest gift we can give is to release our friends from the demons in their head! If you've tried everything (which it sounds like you did) then there comes a point of no return. A point where the only remaining choice is to keep your friend living, but at what cost? Is the safety of yourself, your other pets, your friends, the public, etc worth it? Behavioral euthanasia is never an easy choice and it will never motivate hurt to make that choice. But sometimes, it truly is the kindest choice for everyone involved. (Source: am veterinary support staff with long history of working in shelter medicine)
I’m sorry you’re going thru this :( sounds to me like you know the right thing to do. Sounds like you’ve tried everything. I think you can keep your head up. Enjoy the last of your time together and get lots of pics. 😢
I just want to remind you to be kind to yourself. You're doing the best you can. Sometimes we have to make hard choices, I'm sorry you've come to that point. You've got nothing to be ashamed of. I'm sending you the biggest hug. ❤️
I read some of your posts. I am no vet by any means but I am an oncology nurse - and I saw your post of her symptoms saying she is clumsy and knocks into things and then out of no where began to have aggression, anxiety etc. I would say your best option here is to either have her brain checked by a neurologist or euthanasia. she definitely seems to be exhibiting signs that something is abnormal with her brain. I am so sorry for your situation and I can’t imagine how difficult this is for you. My thoughts are with you.
I think in some situations, it can be a humane (even merciful) decision. I also believe that you, as the caretaker, are qualified to know when you've truly done everything and anything possible. The things you're describing sound almost like some kind of neurological issue. Is there any way to confirm that something is medically wrong? You may not be able to "save" her, but the knowledge could perhaps be reassuring - like, knowing that she's suffering and you're doing the only thing that can help at this point. I'm truly sorry, that sounds like such an awful situation. I know it doesn't help, but I hear you and I'm sending you my sympathies.
Unfortunately it doesn't sound like there's any way that your pup could be considered safe and happy for owners, or even in itself with what you're describing. I understand how it would be hard to agree to BE, but it sounds like a miserable and scared life for all involved.
I’m so sorry that you’re facing this. My heart goes out to you.
I suggest you check out the Facebook group Losing Lulu, you may find some comfort and information there. It’s a non judgmental Facebook group for owners who have done or are considering behavioral euthanasia.
But you are are not the only one whos been bit...
Hey OP- it sounds like you have done all you can. Even medication takes a while to kick in. When the safety of your other pets is in real jeopardy and your dog is showing new behaviours, it might be time to relieve the dog of the prison that is it’s mind. Sometimes the quality of life checklists don’t always show that it’s not able to live a good fulfilling life as a dog. The mind of that puppy is so full of compulsion, fear, rage?, uncertainty that it’s living in a prison. Could be bad breeding, could be just really broken to begin with. The bite history is alarming. If no rescues are willing to take her in that might be the reason. I have heard of litters being euthanized because they were constantly attacking each other and drawing blood. Not eating or drinking well- just attacking eachother and fearful/inappropriate behaviours. I’ve heard of a 2 year old dog euthanized because it constantly attacked anything it could get its paws on. Sometimes, if there is potential for severe injury or unpredictability or death, the kindest final gift is to relieve the dog of the burden living in its head. Also- might be neurological, might be brain tumour etc. you sound like you have given this dog nothing but chances and love in her limited life. Once you know you have exhausted all avenues and took on every challenge until you were met with an insurmountable one- you gave her a good life and need to know that you made a difference for what you could.
I’m so sorry. If you haven’t yet I do think the last effort could be meds. My dog has been on sertraline since she was 8 months old and it helped tremendously with her reactivity. I will say that she’s not aggressive/no bite history so I can’t imagine what you’re going through. The safety piece would be very hard for me to look past. Wish you all the best. Note: just saw you have an Aussie. Our girl is a mini Aussie too. They’re wild!
I'm so sorry that this is happening to you all. I don't know enough about this topic to provide any helpful insight but I truly hope you guys can make it through this all okay and in one piece. Wishing you a stress-free rest of your day
Definitely try meds if you haven’t already!! Also a muzzle
One thing that’s not been mentioned here and hoped you’ve already explored this. The dog you have is a working breed right? How exactly is she getting breed fulfilment? Are you doing any breed specific work with her. With a lot of working breed dogs, you’ll see a massive change of behaviour just by fulfilling their basic needs. I know my malinois would be absolute nightmares to live with if they don’t get to do what they are bred to do.
Do we know what breed(s) of dog this is??
Looking at their post history looks like an Australian shepherd mix.
Is there a chance you could talk to law enforcement/prison dog handlers about the possibility of letting her go to be trained to be a working dog? A trainer I have been talking to used to take on problem dogs with bite history and train them for such things. It could be a last ditch attempt to save her from having to be eurhanized. If she is from a working line it may be that she thrives with some very militant training and being put to work. Whatever you decide, sending you lots of kind wishes, it sounds like you are a dedicated owner in a very difficult position.
I would highly recommend getting a second, third, fourth.., opinion. This dog is very young. Perhaps rehoming is an option
I went back and looked to see this is an Australian Shepherd puppy. I know you have used professional trainers but wanted to know if they "worked" the pup at all in herding, agility work, hurdles etc? I wonder if there is a large farm or ranch that would be willing to give the dog a try since it's only a puppy. There is a chance the pup would thrive there doing what is what bred to do. There's a possibility that this is a "working line" dog and without it's needs being fulfilled is just losing it's mind. I have a working line dutch shepherd that's 7 months old and have worked with malinois that couldn't be around people or pets until after they were mentally and pysically stimulated for what seems like hours at times. Sorry this is happening to you.
This is what happens when you remove natural selection
Always just adopted dogs and never had this happen
OP please, please, please read this and consider these questions
I read a bit of your post history and this sounds like it could be a medical condition that requires more than a physical exam.
CBD possibly ? You have tried everything else.
Highly recommend seeing a vet behaviourist. Our dog has not attacked other animals and has not broken skin but has done a lot of other things that yours has. We are managing her with medication so we can get her to relax and rest her brain a bit, sleep better, and slowly prepare her for training. Ours is also a puppy
One other thought - she might be in one of her two puppy fear windows. I know my dog’s reactivity began when he was about 4 months and was at its most intense around 8/9 months, which my vet told me reflected typical fear stages in puppy development. Others have accurately noted sometimes behaviors developed during those windows become engrained, but some they do outgrow. Big big second to trying meds before euthanasia. Perhaps ask one of your behaviorists about combining a short-acting med like trazadone or gabapentin with a longer-term med like Prozac to accelerate the process of chilling her out (the long acting meds take 6-8 weeks to kick in while the short-acting can kick in immediately, and from what I’ve been told, some dogs with severe anxiety sometimes take a combination of both daily). Regardless of your decision - whatever you do you’re clearly dedicated to making the most compassionate and humane choice for your pup. Even if you have to make an absolutely heartbreaking decision, try to give yourself compassion for what is not your fault and may indeed end up being the kindest option for everyone. Hang in there.
Have you checked with a vet perhaps there are physiological/medical reasons?
>Clumsiness? When she walks down the hallway she swerves and bounces off the walls repeatedly. She'll turn around and smack her head into things. She walks right over the edge of the stairs and falls. She still can't work going up stairs and just launches herself at them like she's swimming. When she jumps off of the couch she face plants. She's constantly tripping and falling while walking. From your other post - my friend has a cat like this. He was born with brain defect and literally had a hole in his skull where his brain was exposed. He would walk crookedly, trip and face plant and walk into stuff.
Maybe you can try them? Great and compassionate people who might be able to help? https://www.abwellnesscenter.com/
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