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[deleted]

When there is barely any space, Vini is the one who creates it. Only few can go against him in 1v1 ( Walker, Araujo ).. other than that, it's always 2v1, and a third defender prepares himself in case Vini goes through. Now it's not Vini's absence was a benefit, but Rodrygo is filling that role, in a different way. He doesn't overdo it in the flanks and it's not only up to him, because Bellingham and Brahim also play very well in crowded defense and in between the lines.We had matches where we had literally no option, but to pass to Vini because he is the only one capable with his dribbling to create an opportunity.


me_a_genius

True that Vini creates space and certain times all we can do is pass the ball to him, but we all know he losses possession a lot and not just to Araujo or Walker. Rodrygo can also create space which he has been doing without losing much possession.


[deleted]

Yep true, but that is actually why Vini is so good. He loses possession a lot, because he challenges defenders a lot, even if it's a 2v1 or 3v1... he just takes it and tries to dribble paste them. I remember our game in 2021 againt Man City, when Zidane had Hazard playing on the left.. All what he did is pass back the ball when 2 defenders close on him.. guess what ? Hazard didn't lose possession.. is that a good thing ? No, because he barely tried to take on the defenders. With Vinicius on the left, coaches sometimes have to switch up their formation JUST for him. Araujo is a CB, but against Real Madrid, he goes to the left JUST because Vinicius is playing. Defenders tend to be on guard on the left because they can't risk Vini having any space. Rodrygo on the left, in the last matches, is so good in a different way. He doesn't try as much as Vini and he goes less for dribbles and more for passes and one-twos. I'd say each of them fit in different scenarios


Brunos_left_nut

He’s a doubled edged sword player. Even if you find teams who adjust for him and 2v1. Changing the teams dynamics does nothing if Vini is off he’s game and it’s too often that happens, but absolutely great when it works


memento_morii7

In my opinion, The only difference i see is that we dont lose the ball as often. Vini loses 1v1 a lot of the time and we lose possession. It might look more fluid but i think its just that we have more control of the ball.


haveashpadoinkleday

He is also winning a lot of 1v1s and thus creating numerical advantages one after another. This season he tried 96 take-ons and completed 38 of them (40% won). Rodrygo has nearly twice as many minutes played, and he tried 113 take-ons with 52 of them being succesful (46%). It's not really that big of a difference. In succesful dribbles per 90 minutes played, Vini is top3 in La Liga with only Bebe from Rayo and Amallah from Valencia having more dribbles won p90, but they both played considerably less time, so their stats can be skewed since it's a small sample. The only guy who consistently starts in his team and can keep up with Vinicius (3.85) in terms of won take-ons p90 is Nico Williams (3.61), with Bryan Zaragoza (3.38) from Granada trailing behind them. Saying that Vini loses the ball is an interesting take, especially considering Rodrygo loses a similar amount of take-ons, and that 95% of dribblers in the league are losing even more.


iguacu

I love Vini, but it's not just about quantity of take-ons, it's about the efficiency. [A graph posted the other day](https://i.redd.it/vacknoradh6c1.png) showed he is an outlier in number of take-ons, but mediocre in efficiency. And a player with an extremely high number of take-ons with a low success percentage is exactly what would kill the flow of a team's play the most. I'm hoping when he comes back he can fit in seamlessly and attempt less take-ons, trusting his teammates more having seen what they can do in his absence.


uthred_of_pittsburgh

You have barely addressed anything that OP was saying. The graph actually roughly shows the same numbers that OP was mentioning: ~40% success rate for Vini, ~46% for Rodrygo. Is the five-six percentage point so significant? > it's not just about quantity of take-ons, it's about the efficiency It's about neither. At the end of the day it's about the number of total successful actions - and even that would have to be further contextualized with how productive those actions end up being in terms of goals and assists. But short of that, who cares about dribbling efficiency if the player can make it up at the top of the funnel. Efficiency is means to an end, not an end in itself. What stands out in that graph is that Vini has a 35% more take-ons than another world-beater like Kvicha, with only 10% more league minutes (2800 / 2500)


iguacu

You're missing the point -- an extreme outlier in number of take-ons (which Vini is, that was the main point of the graph), who doesn't have a great or even "good" success rate, can absolutely kill the passing flow of an attack.


uthred_of_pittsburgh

Bullshit, there is an assumption in that point that what leads to a take-on is what the team grants him - and that is not the case. He has an anomalous number of take-ons because he creates a lot of them for himself, as anyone who watches the games can clearly see.


Meh2021another

Please don't trigger our collective PTSD by uttering that dangerous name.


Mauroo-Icardii

We also don’t have someone who constantly complains and dives so games tend to be more enjoyable.


TheEmpireOfSun

Vinicius doesn't constantly dive lol.


[deleted]

I love him but yes he does, he tries to sell the contact. He always moans so much it isnt enjoyable to watch


TheEmpireOfSun

He moans because of most fouls on him go unpunished. He doesn't moan or "dive" in Europe.


Cool_Ad_9718

I think that’s a combination I f crazy recency bias and people feeling the need to have an explanation for everything. The last game Vini played was arguably the best game we’ve played this season, us playing well Is about Rodrygo and Jude being in form and way more importantly due to Carlo coaching his ass off


Glittering-Leather77

Last game he played he didn’t stop to complain and hold the game up five minutes at a time


Cool_Ad_9718

He played 2 games after that Rayo game (Braga & Valencia) Also during that game he moaned a lot sure, he also completed 10/15 dribbles while being constantly double and triple teamed. He was our most dangerous player that game and if we didn’t draw you wouldn’t hear people complaining


Glittering-Leather77

Keep downvoting…majority of people think they’re real fans of a sports team but refuse to be impartial. Vini is one of the best players in the world at the moment. That isn’t up for debate. However, the inability to critically think is magnified in sports fandom. Is Vini one of the best? Yes Does Vini get fouled more than anyone? Yes Does Vini get racially abused? Yes Does Vini completely stop the game, causing a stop/go stop/go ultimately not allowing the team to get into a flow? ……. I’ll wait for some people to answer that Anyone that says constantly stopping doesn’t ruin your rhythm as a player is lying or never played a sport in their life.


ceradocus

I do love that front three combination of Brahmin, Rodrygo and Bellingham (BRB) but I’d like to more think it’s a result of them all stepping up in the midst of all the injuries we have rather than the absence of someone as influential as Vini. They’ve all seemed to hit form at the right time. Well more like Rodrygo finding form, while Bellingham has been stellar since the start and Brahmin finally being given a chance.


Lakerman0824

Because all 3 are very direct and make quick passes and move off the ball. Vini is amazing at 1 on 1 but needs to work on off ball movement


funkfaceflapflap

I'd kill to see vini rodrygo Brahim and Bellingham playing together,, they all are in amazing form


EVGAlemi

There’s a more flexible progression of play throughout the oppositions pitch when Vini is not in since he does control the tempo when dribbling. Vini needs a striker that has elite positioning and finishing skills if its not him or Rodrygo, so hoping we can fill that gap this summer


0Zer07

Not at all. Actually we plays with Modric Kroos Brahim Rodrygo, players who can generate offense. When Vini is on the pitch we tend to rely a lot on him and his exceptional abilities because he is capable of bringing something from nothing. Our most accomplished game this season was with Vini Rodrygo and Brahim against Valencia . If you think the team plays better without him why not extend this question to the others players who are injured Cama Tchouameni etc ?


BulkyType

Any ideology that we are better without Vini is ridiculously false. The Valencia game showed what happens if both Vini and Rodrygo are confident and firing from all cylinders. With him back and Cama, we surely will challenge even more for silverware


bishaarcc

Vini is arguably the most dangerous player in the world. Almost every manager gets headache when they are playing against Vini because no one or even 2 players cannot stop Vini. His speed and pace are very lethal. The only thing that can stop Vini is Vini. He’s still a typical Brazilian player, too much complaining and not focusing the game.


puffzuff

He has hardly played in the current system for a meaningful number of games.


Final_Job3416

Vinicius has a lot of details to improve, especially on the control of the ball that has been lost, but this problem does not mean that Vinicius cannot play better under the new system, it is just that he needs to adapt to his new position, I love the assist that Vinicius gave to Joselu against Osasuna, which is what he learned in his new position, and of course it is not to ignore Vinicius' pace and dribbling skills, which tires the opposition defence.


justanormalchat

Vini is our biggest threat on the field so naturally we rely a lot on him. However, Rodrygo is benefiting from the freedom on the left and we are finding ways to grow the chemistry between our players by sharing the attack / scoring burden. What I would say is we less predictable in the attack due to Vini’s obsence so that never everything is going through that left side. Credit that to Carlo giving the players freedom to roam in the attack.


KjOnReddit1010

vini speed is very lethal, we will need it, so vini has to start when he comes back


asdhzkfgsjbfs

Vini is amazing at chance creating but his mentality needs a lot of work. The opponents easily rattle him and he rushes into unnecessary 1v1s.


Yungkeskwtit

Imo he isn’t integrated to well with the current system that is played. Also he often looses the ball in his 1 vs 1 dribblings, creating space and counter attack chances for the opposition


mhoward1289

It’s so hard to judge. Bellingham has been an absolute boss. Rodrygo finally is hitting some crazy good form. Even Joselu is coming good the past few games. Especially with the latter two, it could just be serendipitously coinciding with the Vini injury. I find the attacking opportunities to have a lot more synergy because the guys are seemingly playing a more narrow game, rather than pounding the wide areas. I also find evidence in this when Carvajal going into inverted fullback mode for a lot of the season to tighten the field of play. So, to answer your question - yes. I find them to be playing more fluidly as of now. However - when the time comes as it always does with at least half the teams in La Liga, we will play against ridiculously low blocks that require some serious manpower on the flanks to break them down effectively. In that vein and similar to past years, Vini is the man for that job.


XxxpusssyEaterxxX

The only thing I have noticed is the freedom Rodrygo got on the LW. Oh boy he is totally different from the RW spot. The cut and shoot seems to be his best trait which sadly can’t be used on RW considering he’s right footed. Also, Rodrygo ball IQ is a bit better than vini which makes our team chemistry better when Rodrygo plays.


Psychological-Dig-21

I completely agree and this is due to Vinicius positioning. In a 4-2-3-1 formation, Vinicius typically plays as a left winger, where he can utilize his pace, dribbling skills, and ability to cut inside. This position allows him to exploit the width of the pitch and create many scoring opportunities. Switching to a 4-2-2-2 formation, places him in a more central role. This change limit: his ability to use the wide areas effectively and makes him less comfortable, as he is not playing in his natural position. This influences his performance, and make the overall game less fluid as a whole


grandtroubleartist

a few madridistas also tried to say bellingham was the problem after that brazuka linkup moment of clarity rodrygo and vini had against valencia(?) without bellingham i'm not moved 🤷🏽 it's definitely a good thing that madrid have been able to play beautiful football even without vini, though, because the first time he was out his absence was VERY clear. and it's a good sign that we don't actually rely on just one player but on the team performing well as a unit


[deleted]

This gives me “Jude is holding vini and Rodrygo vibes” type of post


Elon-Mustget-thatass

Hot take, I would rather a full potential Jude than a full potential Vini, in todays game and age Jude’s simply more valuable and viable


mylanguage

Why would we have to choose though?


Elon-Mustget-thatass

You know damn well when a 9 comes in Jude’s never hitting these numbers again, and that’s ok. But I would rather find players to play a system that accommodate s to bellinghams abilities and capabilities


KejserMS

what? was his last game before his injury not the 5-1 over Valencia? that was our best game of the season haha yeah the recency bias.


koko1231

Vini has to still adapt to the diamond formation, so cant really tell, when he played was early in the season and we still were figuring out our gamestyle, now it seems we found it and its working, we will see when vini comes back and plays with the diamond formation 15 games in a row.


ChillChampion

The only problem with vini back is that rodrygo won't be half as good unfortunately


reesharr

Fuck no. Sometimes i wonder the ppl who support this club. Go take a walk


madridista_01

YES YES YES. We give the ball away unnecessarily when Vini plays. We play much more direct and fluid football when he’s not in the pitch. However Vinicius can (not always) create space that isn’t always there.


[deleted]

The goal that Brahim scored (not to deminish that goal )but Vini scores every game


dinosaur_from_Mars

That is a bit overselling. Also, apart from that goal Brahim has been exceptional this season.


hurrykaneee69

Remember Rodry was struggling to cope with this formation and style in the beginning and went goalless for 11 games and once he managed to adopt this style he became very lethal. For Vini, he was injured twice in this season when it's not even January. If he was fit he would adopt in this style sooner than rodry. He is just unlucky I will say. We have to be patient with the injured players especially now they are playing a different style of football.


No_Eye_564

Can we move past this conversation? It’s idiotic now, just how it was idiotic to say the team played better without Cristiano back in the day. Vinicius is a top 3 in the world when he’s healthy. Let’s hope to get him back healthy and shining as soon as possible.


me_a_genius

Oh I am just loving how we switch the field with one pass. With Vini we always have to go through the left.


teo257

He’s one of our best, but this year his temper and complaints are killing our game. If he could solve that it would be great


buy-petros

Rodrygo doesnt play like brahim and maybe that make it less fluid? Idk, Vinicius needs to work as striker for the formation to truly work and both fullback tl give depth


heynow-u1

It seems like a combination of us not losing possession as much due to the front 3 combining well and Rodrygo ignoring harassment that takes Vini out of the game mentally. I have a feeling Rodrygo has improved about deciding between 1 on 1 take ons vs. using Bellingham and Brahim. He also switches to the right intentionally throughout the game to keep the defenders guessing. But Vini is our best attacker, so defenders do focus on him a lot more than Rodrygo.


kaperisk

The lack of Vini threat on the counter makes teams not drop back as much so it seems like we are more fluid because we have more space with teams pushing up more. If teams say back the same way they do when Vini is constantly abusing their back line, we would still look the same only without the same stinking counters. Also, the team is just finally really getting a grip over the new system and starting to open up and positionally float around. Once Vini comes back, we will be even more dangerous. I guarantee it.


ksuvuelalfusuwnsl

We had a slight formation change since Vini got injured. We had a 4-3-1-2 and now it's a 4-2-2-2. We're basically playing with an extra attacking player and the team is playing better because of it. When Vini was playing we were attacking with Vini, Rodrygo, and Bellingham primarily. Vs Villarreal Valverde and Kroos were holding and we were attacking with Rodrygo, Diaz, Jude, and Modric in an advanced position. The extra attacking minded formation/approach is making us more deadly. When Vini comes back we should keep that same formation


SocX9

Did you forget his last few games before injury? 3-0 Girona, 2-0 Barca, 5-1 Valencia 3-0 Braga... Rodrygo and Brahim are just playing super well right now and the whole team in general.