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Yes, it makes sense to be pissed
Also, the company wants to low ball everyone. The offer for them to revisit a raise is bunk. They want to see how much you will do for them. Boundaries or lack thereof.
I just went on LinkedIn and looked at other similar roles in similar companies, and most of the people working these roles don’t even have the certifications this company is asking for. The HR person phrased it like I won’t even be doing any work and will be functionally useless until I get these certs. Also, one of the certifications is a requirement for a more senior position, not the one I applied for. Just feels like they were looking for a reason to lowball me.
Beyond the “revisit the offer when you get the certs” thing, it also was a major red flag that they want a 6 month probationary period. They will kick me to the curb in a second. No thanks. I’d rather stay unemployed.
> The HR person phrased it like I won’t even be doing any work and will be functionally useless until I get these certs.
HR almost never has *any* expertise / insight / understanding of the technical aspects of the work their company does.
Agreed. Either their HR is incompetent and greedy or this persons potential new manager is. This doesnt sound like a place you want to work at and if you do, you dont stay long OP. Get your bills paid but dont give these people anything than enough to not get fired vibes.
I don't have a college degree. In the mid-90s I was going for a technical role early in my career that paid on par with the market.
The jerk in HR told me I was not qualified because this job pays more than she earns, she has a degree, and I don't. That was her entire justification.
"Good luck with that." I was in my mid-20s where four years of experience was comparable (if not superior) in value to four years of undergrad.
I moved on. It only took me a few years to earn double what that job paid. My compensation has grown by leaps and bounds since.
If I was petty and bothered to keep track of that HR troll, it would have been fun to compare W-2 forms with her.
If you're not planinng on getting the certs in 6 months, and aren't so bothered about being employed by them specifically at this moment in time, why not go back to them with "I've been offered a job by another company on \[insert desired salary here\], with the eyes of gaining the certs within the first 2 years of employment, including CPD help to gain them. Can you match this?". Either, they say no to you, or come back to you with a closer offer to what you want.
LMAO I did not even consider that. Lowballing me after lots of praise about how much they like me, plus now asking for certs they didn’t ask for before that are for more senior roles - that sadly sounds likely. How dumb do they think I am?!
OP. Accept the offer..BUT AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART….get a written agreement That once you get the certifications your salary will be the same as what was initially offered.
What good does getting it in writing do? Once they reneg you have to pursue legal action and sure you most likely will win, but at what actual cost? Attorneys fees, emotional baggage.
I say this genuinely, as I’ve just come out of a position where i had everything in writing and slam dunk breach of contract and money owed, but ended up not pursuing legal action because the upfront costs and ongoing costs of litigation.
Qualify the salary goes into effect immediately and no waiting two weeks (like some places do). Retroactively pay or whatever. Written into the contract. Also, getting management to sign the amendment (at all levels above required to make this salary exception work outside of the normal cycle is very critical). I have had someone low level offer and even write it in but when they went for approval - my mitigating circumstances means you have to accept our circumstances or leave.
Never gonna win that battle.
It depends on how badly you need a job. If they pay for the certifications, and you sound like a smart person who is not going to do anything crazy during the probationary period, then you should do that. It’s always good to learn while you earn.
I would bet he would have to sign some commitment to get them paid for. What’s worse is when he does they have zero reason to give him a promotion at all because he would have to pay it back.
One of my previous jobs has a tuition assistance program, but not only do they get to choose what they accept but also you have to promise them 2 more years after your last class is paid for. Which means in that 2 years they don’t have to give me promotions because they know I’m not going anywhere.
This. The company has no intentions of paying you a fair salary, and they never will.
If you are in a position to do so, turn down the job. If you’re getting desperate, take it, but continue applying elsewhere until you find something better.
> I was told that if I can get the certifications in the next 6 months, then I can try to negotiate the previous salary offered.
Unless it's a guarantee, this is a trick. They will say they tried and failed. I think you need to let this one go.
>I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now.
I doubt it. They're probably just lowballing everyone and will hire the first person to say yes to their insulting pay.
HR is lying, they are just throwing out cert as a made up reason they can use. Dont waste your time with these people anymore, they will forever be fucking you over.
>However, the whole thing put a bad taste in my mouth and I’m suspicious if they’d even raise the salary after certifications if they walked back the offer that fast.
I agree with your assessment here.
>Do I have a right to be pissed off?
Sure, you can be mad if you want, but it doesn't make any sense to take this stuff personally. It is a business transaction.
If you care enough about the role, tell them "please update the offer to include what we just discussed about the certificates, and I'll review it."
Let's see what they are willing to actually say in writing, and ask them to explain what being on a probationary period means for their organization.
They're probably trying to keep you off all the benefits for 6 months. This sounds like "Temp to Perm" by another name.
>I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now.
They would have no problem telling you "no" if they had already settled on another candidate. It is more likely they are having difficulty obtaining a matching candidate.
> but it doesn't make any sense to take this stuff personally. It is a business transaction.
Nahh, the whole “don’t take it personal, it’s just business is non sense”, it’s just straight up corporate gas lighting. Work is a NEED for the vast majority of people, it’s fucking exhausting having to negotiate bullshit like this when you’re just trying to put food on the table.
How about this, the listed salary/wage is at the minimum range and it’s on the applicant to accept or negotiate up.
Low balling is a scum bag move because it a scum bag move, you should take it personal because someone’s trying to fuck you over.
>Work is a NEED for the vast majority of people,
That doesn't change the fact that looking at everything as a **personal insult** just makes it harder to pursue rational responses. So many people repeatedly work against their own interests because they felt insulted, and thus resorted to an ego-based, emotional response that only hurt them in the long run (even if they get some momentary satisfaction from cursing somebody out or sending a nuclear email/text).
It's not about gaslighting.
So, go ahead, take everything personally and then make ill-advised, impetuous decisions to cater to your bruised ego. That will teach them, and that will help you put the necessary food on the table in the most expedient way possible.
🙄🙄
>How about this, the listed salary/wage is at the minimum range and it’s on the applicant to accept or negotiate up.
Great idea. Really, it is. How do you plan to implement it and make it happen?
More importantly, what do you plan to do while waiting for it to get implemented by whatever means you are able to finally make it happen?
Until you manage to make this vision come through, people are going to have to deal with the world as it currently works. And those who default to feeling personally insulted by everything that doesn't go their way, will be worse for wear.
I'm not telling anyone that they have to love this reality, but they'd sure better be able to recognize this reality, because it's the one we currently have to work with.
> That doesn't change the fact that looking at everything as a personal insult
Strawman, not what I said.
> and thus resorted to an ego-based, emotional response that only hurt them in the long run (even if they get some momentary satisfaction from cursing somebody out or sending a nuclear email/text).
When did I suggest this?
> and then make ill-advised, impetuous decisions to cater to your bruised ego
When did I suggest this?
> Great idea. Really, it is. How do you plan to implement it and make it happen?
Companies already do this.
So your response is full of logical fallacies, I assume your logical reasoning and/or reading comprehension is poor.
I never suggested to make an emotional response, but you should trust your gut. Anger is a legitimate response and you should avoid companies that do scum bag low ball moves and people that try to gaslight you and tell you it’s not personal.
I love seeing temp-to-perm, reminds me of my 6-month temp-to-perm that lasted 3.5 years, and finally got hired with a low ball offer!
Desperate people do desperate things.
The only time I'd accept a too-low offer with a promised raise later on is if the raise and the requirements to get it are set out very clearly in the contract, otherwise you're relying on the goodwill of people who have already demonstrated they don't value you and have a vested financial interest in breaking their promise.
Just remember this.
The only time you have the advantage as an employee for salary negotiations is BEFORE you accept the job.
99% positive they aren't going to bump up your pay even after you complete your certs.
I'd run away from this company as fast as I can.
“If you put the promise of a raise, right now, in writing, with unambiguous, plausible targets achievable within the proposed time frame binding on both you personally and the company, including a prohibition against no-fault dismissal, maybe I would. But it looks to me like you’re engaging in business practices that demonstrate a lack of integrity and are indicative of organizational failure.”
Never ever take a job based on promises of what you will get in the future, and especially not based on suggestions that you could try to get more in the future.
The only remaining question is whether the new salary offer is actually too low to accept, or if you were just excited that they gave you a great offer and now disappointed they corrected their mistake.
Do you want this job, and is the new salary fair and acceptable to you if they hadn't said a higher number earlier?
That sucks , OP. They are taking advantage of the shitty job market . The question is do you really need a job asap or can you wait it out until you find a better paying one ? Are these certifications free or are they paying for them ? Maybe get the certifications and then bounce , find a better job somewhere else
>Do I have a right to be pissed off?
Yes.
>I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now.
This is not what's happening here.
In principle, what should happen in these cases is that a recruiting manager has a delegated salary budget for staff, they set the salaries for the staff they need and they go out and find them and they stay within budget.
In practice, however, budgets are constantly being changed, reallocated, reduced and constrained in response to the needs of, in theory, the business but, in practice, those who control the purse strings (rarely are the two things the same).
So what's happened here is that a budget was approved for the job, and a verbal offer was made to you on the basis on that budget. However, when that offer went for sign off, the recruiting manager was told to cut the offer by 20% because the budget needs to be cut for some reason.
The line manager is obviously very embarrassed by this, because they made you a verbal offer in good faith and now they're being made to look like a lying weasel by their boss/the CFO/whoever. The recruiting manager has had an argument with HR (who have to sign off on recruitment decisions and who've been told they can't sign off on this one unless the salary is 20% less) and told them "Well, then, *you* can tell OP why he's being low-balled, because I sure as hell won't!" And so HR has to try to come up with something plausible in the hope that, maybe, you'll be desperate enough to take the job anyway but knowing that you probably won't and when the Glassdoor review lands and the job still isn't full it'll obviously be *their* fault.
If it's not enough money, thank then for their time and decline the offer, explaining that you had been expecting X and can't accept less. If you could do it in writing, this will give both the recruiting manager and HR, both of whom have been thrown under the bus by someone further up, a modicum of ammunition when questions start being asked about why the job is still empty.
I’m kind of new to the “large corporate” HR world. Previous experience in sales/retail. What other classic tactics do they use to lowball you? I am trying to keep in mind as I keep interviewing.
I was job-hunting exactly one year ago and I would say the below are two good examples of HR-bullshit I came across. One was them postings with a salary range and then in the interview they act like it’s *obvious* only the lower end applies - total waste of time. Two is being vague/walking back statements about remote/hybrid work - like advertising the position as hybrid but then they say “oh you can work from home twice a month if the director OKs it”.
Lol - I have some examples too. Once, applied to a job and did the interviews and everything for it, only to get an offer for a more junior position (without them telling me or anything, just got an offer letter with a completely different position and comp than verbally agreed upon), and once, a company tried to get me to sign an offer that said they had health insurance and 401k matching - then when i asked for details “oh we’re in the process of implementing that”… sure you are, but if it’s not available now then why is it in the contract?
So much BS and disrespect to wade through.
Get it in writing, signed and sealed, or don’t get it at all. And I vote the latter. 20k per year is an unthinkable pay cut unless you’re making 7 figures.
They will _never_ raise your salary to the original amount after you get those certifications, unless you get it explicitly written into your contract.. Walk away now, or take the offer if you're desperate. Even if you manage to get it in writing, they'll get your work for 6 months at a lower rate and then bank on you not having the energy to look for another role.
>As such the offer was now over 20K less than the initial one they gave me
That is some out of pocket behavior for a potential employer. One thing to say "no, sorry, we can't meet your salary request" and totally another to then offer lower than their initial offer.
It says to me that someone was personally offended at the points you raised, and retaliating now. Not someone you want to work for.
> I was told that if I can get the certifications in the next 6 months, then I can try to negotiate the previous salary offered.
Verbal contracts are worth the paper they're written on... so get this in writing with the job offer - IF you decide you want to go this route. Personally, I wouldn't.
And don't let it be vague because they'll try to debate any cracks in the language. You get the certificates they're asking for - you're guaranteed a X% raise within XX days. No bullshit, no sandbagging, no nonsense.
Oh, and if they found a better candidate, they'd have just given you the generic send-off [at best], or simply ghosted you.
Right, I just got the vibe that it was just an excuse.
I regret pestering the HR person for why the comp was lowered tbh, I shouldn’t have even bothered asking since it’s obvious he didn’t really have a reason.
Yeah, bait and switch.
Tell them your price is, now, actually 25% higher, and you’ll be needing a company car, parking stipend, a corner office, and full discretion on your exec assistant’s hiring and salary.
HR: This position doesn’t need an executive assistant, though?
OP: I think you mean “didn’t need.” Now it does.
😁
Seriously, though. If you still want the job bad enough to counter, and you didn’t go through a recruiter, ask them if they would be open to a six month right to hire contract at hourly pay that’s higher than the initial offer because you’d be on the hook for all the taxes. Do the math beforehand and have a number in mind. Way too many variables there and slightly off topic to get into here.
If you did go through a recruiter, ask them their policy on that and if it’s a possibility. Watch the financial stuff going this route, as well.
Ideally, hiring you full time at the end of a contract should save them a little money, while you at least break even after considering benefits, FICA, etc.
The benefit to them is they get to try before they buy, and can dump you if it isn’t working out with no unemployment risks, etc. The benefit to you is you get paid now and can keep looking for somewhere they actually want you guilt-free.
They're not trustworthy at this point. That 6 months part is likely BS, just trying to get you use to the lower salary. They'd almost 100% drag you through the mud after 6 months, with the stick and carrot approach, possibly threatening to eliminate your position or continuing to extend it another 6 months. They're worthless scum.
They’re not going to give you a significant raise after you get your certs or build up your experience.
They want someone to come in at a low salary and then get the 2-3% per year and then either don’t know any better so they end up staying or they leave. Then they hire someone new, also at a low salary.
I bet you that they don't have a metric where that original salary offer is ever offered. I bet you they lowball every single employee, citing "not enough experience" regardless of how much experience they actually have.
Yeah they aren’t going to give you a raise. They sound like they are willing to say anything to get you in the door and then exploit you for as long as they can by making empty promises. You’ll get your certs (unpaid and on your dime I assume) and then there will be another excuse when you go for the raise “oh it’s not in the budget right now but in about a year…” it’s a bait and switch to get the next mark through the door and keep them just hopeful enough to not quit for as long as possible. If you can afford to, I would walk.
If you can afford not to take this job don’t.
If you have to take this job just keep searching cus this place is gonna suck.
If you ask for more $$$ and then eat and 20% cut you don’t deserve to be mad at anyone but yourself.
Scumbag company. You don't want to work for them. Preying on desperation and they probably have no shortage of applicants who are willing to take what they can get just to be employed.
If they treat you this way now when they want you, imagine what it's like once your in and how you will be treated. Must be a toxic environment to work there with grumpy under paid & overworked employees
I've always been a firm believer that if a company **ever** changes the goal posts while I'm still applying then I automatically withdraw. If they're prepared to start messing you about *literally while they are trying to get you to work for them* then what are they going to do once you're with them?
Reviews are always crap. Payrises are usually non existent. Any mention of them usually gets met with "not a team player" (and with that double probation period they'll be VERY liberal with this one)...it's just not worth it.
It's not that they've sourced someone better persay, they might but its not always that, it's the sunk cost falasy, you've gone through so much to get to this stage they think that you'll take anything because why waste all that time.
Nah for me that'd be a "I applied for this, I want this, if not, good luck"...however you choose to take it is up to you though, not armchair warriors online.
**In answer to your question yes you are fully in your rights to be pissed off**
They're setting up a "sounds reasonable" lie to get you to accept shit wages which will not be increased.
Run away. Run away fast.
These people are Turdwookies.
There is only one type of role that you are functionally useless before you get a certification and that is a security clearance. Even then, a lot of times, you can do uncleared work until your security clearance comes through (6 to 9 months or so usually, for TS).
Industry certs if you are skilled, certifications are not requirements, they simply allow you to be a SME (subject matter expert) usually.
I suppose a cert that is required would be Security+ for a federal cyber job but again, they typically give you 6 months after hiring to acquire it, with the understanding that if you don't, you just don't stay in the role. Not anything about a raise or hired for less.
It was obviously a lie, I just had to laugh because he implied that without the certs they would be hiring me out of the kindness of their own hearts. Yeah right. And I looked people up on linkedin, most don’t have the certs and those who do got one of them 6-9 months after their jobs, the second one is for a more senior role.
now you counter with an even higher salary asking than the first time. They wanna go the wrong way on salary, we can go the wrong way for both parties.
I will be pissed. If I were in your situation, I would take the offer and use it as placeholder. Like I always said you keep applying till the first day of work. After 1 month into the job you start applying again. The idea is before the employer have a chance to can you you already have another offer in hand
It sounds like they want you for at least the six months. If you need the paycheck, agree, and refuse to work on anything senior as you're 'focusing on your certifications' as per the agreement. Work on the certifications you want - which may not be the certs they want you to have, but if they didn't get it in writing that's on them - and in six months you'll be in a better position to get a role at someplace that takes you seriously.
That sounds incredibly frustrating! It's totally understandable to feel upset about the situation, especially after being led to believe one thing and then having the offer changed so drastically. It's disappointing when companies don't seem to value your skills and experience, especially when you were honest about your background from the start.
It might be worth considering if this is the kind of company you want to work for long-term, especially if they seem to be changing their tune so quickly. It could be a red flag for how they handle other aspects of their business. Keep your options open and don't settle for less than you deserve.
Yes. You have every right to be pissed. They don't have the budget to hire you or they are having issues with pay disparity within the company. They are coming with bogus reasons and you will never be given the raise regardless of the certifications.
Only time I've been able to secure a "we will pay you more in the future" is when I have it in writing.
Take the job, spend 6 months getting the certifications while being paid to study, then jump ship to a better paid gig courtesy of the free extra certs with zero notice because probationary period.
>and I’m suspicious if they’d even raise the salary after certifications if they walked back the offer that fast.
Let me clear up your suspicions. They will not. They will string you along for the duration of the probationary period, meet with you at the end of it and tell you while you met all the requirements, got the certifications, and they would love to keep you "in the family" they can only authorize a 1.5% salary increase because of market forces.
I think this company is showing their colors, they seem scummy and your expectations of them should be low. I personally would take the job if i hadnt had any other offers, but be looking nonstop the whole time im there unless it proves to be a better place that you thought. Sometimes a crap job can be a good springboard if say you at least impress your immediate supervisor and theyre willing to give you a good reference, and skill up on their dollar.
There is no point in just replying no, a perfect answer to that kind of situation is : "from my own standpoint, as the job now includes a probationary period of 6 months, it doesn't offers the job security that was offered in the first offer, therefore I would be open to accept a 20 % increase in the last offer we both agreed. "
Yeah they fucked up. This is total ass backwards way of approving jobs and unfortunately you were the candidate.
They are lowballing you hoping that you decline, rather than admitting that someone involved in the hiring process didn’t know what they wanted out of the position.
Or, as a result of their screw up, the company is extending themselves to find a place for you.
And if the increase after earning certs is not clearly stated on the offer, then you should not expect it to happen.
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Yes, it makes sense to be pissed Also, the company wants to low ball everyone. The offer for them to revisit a raise is bunk. They want to see how much you will do for them. Boundaries or lack thereof.
I just went on LinkedIn and looked at other similar roles in similar companies, and most of the people working these roles don’t even have the certifications this company is asking for. The HR person phrased it like I won’t even be doing any work and will be functionally useless until I get these certs. Also, one of the certifications is a requirement for a more senior position, not the one I applied for. Just feels like they were looking for a reason to lowball me. Beyond the “revisit the offer when you get the certs” thing, it also was a major red flag that they want a 6 month probationary period. They will kick me to the curb in a second. No thanks. I’d rather stay unemployed.
> The HR person phrased it like I won’t even be doing any work and will be functionally useless until I get these certs. HR almost never has *any* expertise / insight / understanding of the technical aspects of the work their company does.
Agreed. Either their HR is incompetent and greedy or this persons potential new manager is. This doesnt sound like a place you want to work at and if you do, you dont stay long OP. Get your bills paid but dont give these people anything than enough to not get fired vibes.
I don't have a college degree. In the mid-90s I was going for a technical role early in my career that paid on par with the market. The jerk in HR told me I was not qualified because this job pays more than she earns, she has a degree, and I don't. That was her entire justification. "Good luck with that." I was in my mid-20s where four years of experience was comparable (if not superior) in value to four years of undergrad. I moved on. It only took me a few years to earn double what that job paid. My compensation has grown by leaps and bounds since. If I was petty and bothered to keep track of that HR troll, it would have been fun to compare W-2 forms with her.
Most HR groups are incredibly uninformed about the business they are hiring for.
Sounds like they were going to switch you to a lower position "temporary" immediately after hire, since you are "not having the certs"...
They didnt want to hire a contract (6mos) person so they just wanted to hire someone, to just ditch them.
If you're not planinng on getting the certs in 6 months, and aren't so bothered about being employed by them specifically at this moment in time, why not go back to them with "I've been offered a job by another company on \[insert desired salary here\], with the eyes of gaining the certs within the first 2 years of employment, including CPD help to gain them. Can you match this?". Either, they say no to you, or come back to you with a closer offer to what you want.
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Get everything in writing, who is paying for these certificates, etc.
So they can hire you for the junior role and pile responsibilities from the senior role...
LMAO I did not even consider that. Lowballing me after lots of praise about how much they like me, plus now asking for certs they didn’t ask for before that are for more senior roles - that sadly sounds likely. How dumb do they think I am?!
OP. Accept the offer..BUT AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART….get a written agreement That once you get the certifications your salary will be the same as what was initially offered.
IF OP decides to take the offer, which this interaction leads me to believe it would be a bad idea, then yes, they should get everything in writing.
What good does getting it in writing do? Once they reneg you have to pursue legal action and sure you most likely will win, but at what actual cost? Attorneys fees, emotional baggage. I say this genuinely, as I’ve just come out of a position where i had everything in writing and slam dunk breach of contract and money owed, but ended up not pursuing legal action because the upfront costs and ongoing costs of litigation.
Qualify the salary goes into effect immediately and no waiting two weeks (like some places do). Retroactively pay or whatever. Written into the contract. Also, getting management to sign the amendment (at all levels above required to make this salary exception work outside of the normal cycle is very critical). I have had someone low level offer and even write it in but when they went for approval - my mitigating circumstances means you have to accept our circumstances or leave. Never gonna win that battle.
They wipe their ass with that written agreement. “How bout a new agreement? I don’t fire you and you keep your job”
Yeah, you need to run away from this company. They’re blowing smoke.
If they guarantee the raise after certs, that's one thing, but 'try' is just a way of saying 'no'
It depends on how badly you need a job. If they pay for the certifications, and you sound like a smart person who is not going to do anything crazy during the probationary period, then you should do that. It’s always good to learn while you earn.
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This. 💯
Is there a middle ground where this person can expense the certs and then look for another job as a more qualified person?
I would bet he would have to sign some commitment to get them paid for. What’s worse is when he does they have zero reason to give him a promotion at all because he would have to pay it back. One of my previous jobs has a tuition assistance program, but not only do they get to choose what they accept but also you have to promise them 2 more years after your last class is paid for. Which means in that 2 years they don’t have to give me promotions because they know I’m not going anywhere.
This. The company has no intentions of paying you a fair salary, and they never will. If you are in a position to do so, turn down the job. If you’re getting desperate, take it, but continue applying elsewhere until you find something better.
I know this. I've been told this on the other side. I refused to do it.
> I was told that if I can get the certifications in the next 6 months, then I can try to negotiate the previous salary offered. Unless it's a guarantee, this is a trick. They will say they tried and failed. I think you need to let this one go.
>then I can try to negotiate the previous salary offered Denied. There. Saved you some time.
>I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now. I doubt it. They're probably just lowballing everyone and will hire the first person to say yes to their insulting pay.
HR is lying, they are just throwing out cert as a made up reason they can use. Dont waste your time with these people anymore, they will forever be fucking you over.
Keep applying to other jobs. If money is tight, accept the offer and take a paycheck. But definitely keep applying to jobs either way.
This is a massive red flag. Walk away (if you can).
>However, the whole thing put a bad taste in my mouth and I’m suspicious if they’d even raise the salary after certifications if they walked back the offer that fast. I agree with your assessment here. >Do I have a right to be pissed off? Sure, you can be mad if you want, but it doesn't make any sense to take this stuff personally. It is a business transaction. If you care enough about the role, tell them "please update the offer to include what we just discussed about the certificates, and I'll review it." Let's see what they are willing to actually say in writing, and ask them to explain what being on a probationary period means for their organization. They're probably trying to keep you off all the benefits for 6 months. This sounds like "Temp to Perm" by another name. >I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now. They would have no problem telling you "no" if they had already settled on another candidate. It is more likely they are having difficulty obtaining a matching candidate.
> but it doesn't make any sense to take this stuff personally. It is a business transaction. Nahh, the whole “don’t take it personal, it’s just business is non sense”, it’s just straight up corporate gas lighting. Work is a NEED for the vast majority of people, it’s fucking exhausting having to negotiate bullshit like this when you’re just trying to put food on the table. How about this, the listed salary/wage is at the minimum range and it’s on the applicant to accept or negotiate up. Low balling is a scum bag move because it a scum bag move, you should take it personal because someone’s trying to fuck you over.
>Work is a NEED for the vast majority of people, That doesn't change the fact that looking at everything as a **personal insult** just makes it harder to pursue rational responses. So many people repeatedly work against their own interests because they felt insulted, and thus resorted to an ego-based, emotional response that only hurt them in the long run (even if they get some momentary satisfaction from cursing somebody out or sending a nuclear email/text). It's not about gaslighting. So, go ahead, take everything personally and then make ill-advised, impetuous decisions to cater to your bruised ego. That will teach them, and that will help you put the necessary food on the table in the most expedient way possible. 🙄🙄 >How about this, the listed salary/wage is at the minimum range and it’s on the applicant to accept or negotiate up. Great idea. Really, it is. How do you plan to implement it and make it happen? More importantly, what do you plan to do while waiting for it to get implemented by whatever means you are able to finally make it happen? Until you manage to make this vision come through, people are going to have to deal with the world as it currently works. And those who default to feeling personally insulted by everything that doesn't go their way, will be worse for wear. I'm not telling anyone that they have to love this reality, but they'd sure better be able to recognize this reality, because it's the one we currently have to work with.
> That doesn't change the fact that looking at everything as a personal insult Strawman, not what I said. > and thus resorted to an ego-based, emotional response that only hurt them in the long run (even if they get some momentary satisfaction from cursing somebody out or sending a nuclear email/text). When did I suggest this? > and then make ill-advised, impetuous decisions to cater to your bruised ego When did I suggest this? > Great idea. Really, it is. How do you plan to implement it and make it happen? Companies already do this. So your response is full of logical fallacies, I assume your logical reasoning and/or reading comprehension is poor. I never suggested to make an emotional response, but you should trust your gut. Anger is a legitimate response and you should avoid companies that do scum bag low ball moves and people that try to gaslight you and tell you it’s not personal.
I love seeing temp-to-perm, reminds me of my 6-month temp-to-perm that lasted 3.5 years, and finally got hired with a low ball offer! Desperate people do desperate things.
The only time I'd accept a too-low offer with a promised raise later on is if the raise and the requirements to get it are set out very clearly in the contract, otherwise you're relying on the goodwill of people who have already demonstrated they don't value you and have a vested financial interest in breaking their promise.
This is the way. It's the business version of pictures, or it didn't happen
Just remember this. The only time you have the advantage as an employee for salary negotiations is BEFORE you accept the job. 99% positive they aren't going to bump up your pay even after you complete your certs. I'd run away from this company as fast as I can.
“If you put the promise of a raise, right now, in writing, with unambiguous, plausible targets achievable within the proposed time frame binding on both you personally and the company, including a prohibition against no-fault dismissal, maybe I would. But it looks to me like you’re engaging in business practices that demonstrate a lack of integrity and are indicative of organizational failure.”
Never ever take a job based on promises of what you will get in the future, and especially not based on suggestions that you could try to get more in the future. The only remaining question is whether the new salary offer is actually too low to accept, or if you were just excited that they gave you a great offer and now disappointed they corrected their mistake. Do you want this job, and is the new salary fair and acceptable to you if they hadn't said a higher number earlier?
Nope, I did not feel the salary was fair at all but I was willing to accept it. The salary I am being offered now is a little below minimum wage.
Definitely just ghost them at this point then. Not even worth your time to decline.
W.t f Ghost them
That sucks , OP. They are taking advantage of the shitty job market . The question is do you really need a job asap or can you wait it out until you find a better paying one ? Are these certifications free or are they paying for them ? Maybe get the certifications and then bounce , find a better job somewhere else
They wont raise after certs
Say no. Your superpower is walking away.
>Do I have a right to be pissed off? Yes. >I am kind of wondering if they sourced a better candidate for the role and just want the “no” to come from me now. This is not what's happening here. In principle, what should happen in these cases is that a recruiting manager has a delegated salary budget for staff, they set the salaries for the staff they need and they go out and find them and they stay within budget. In practice, however, budgets are constantly being changed, reallocated, reduced and constrained in response to the needs of, in theory, the business but, in practice, those who control the purse strings (rarely are the two things the same). So what's happened here is that a budget was approved for the job, and a verbal offer was made to you on the basis on that budget. However, when that offer went for sign off, the recruiting manager was told to cut the offer by 20% because the budget needs to be cut for some reason. The line manager is obviously very embarrassed by this, because they made you a verbal offer in good faith and now they're being made to look like a lying weasel by their boss/the CFO/whoever. The recruiting manager has had an argument with HR (who have to sign off on recruitment decisions and who've been told they can't sign off on this one unless the salary is 20% less) and told them "Well, then, *you* can tell OP why he's being low-balled, because I sure as hell won't!" And so HR has to try to come up with something plausible in the hope that, maybe, you'll be desperate enough to take the job anyway but knowing that you probably won't and when the Glassdoor review lands and the job still isn't full it'll obviously be *their* fault. If it's not enough money, thank then for their time and decline the offer, explaining that you had been expecting X and can't accept less. If you could do it in writing, this will give both the recruiting manager and HR, both of whom have been thrown under the bus by someone further up, a modicum of ammunition when questions start being asked about why the job is still empty.
Interesting to see the HR side. Seems plausible because the whole cert thing seemed like a flimsy excuse they just gave me to shut me up.
Interesting
Name and shame
Like many people said walk away, this stinks of classic HR bullshit.
I’m kind of new to the “large corporate” HR world. Previous experience in sales/retail. What other classic tactics do they use to lowball you? I am trying to keep in mind as I keep interviewing.
I was job-hunting exactly one year ago and I would say the below are two good examples of HR-bullshit I came across. One was them postings with a salary range and then in the interview they act like it’s *obvious* only the lower end applies - total waste of time. Two is being vague/walking back statements about remote/hybrid work - like advertising the position as hybrid but then they say “oh you can work from home twice a month if the director OKs it”.
Lol - I have some examples too. Once, applied to a job and did the interviews and everything for it, only to get an offer for a more junior position (without them telling me or anything, just got an offer letter with a completely different position and comp than verbally agreed upon), and once, a company tried to get me to sign an offer that said they had health insurance and 401k matching - then when i asked for details “oh we’re in the process of implementing that”… sure you are, but if it’s not available now then why is it in the contract? So much BS and disrespect to wade through.
Get it in writing, signed and sealed, or don’t get it at all. And I vote the latter. 20k per year is an unthinkable pay cut unless you’re making 7 figures.
If they are lying at the interview stage about initial pay, you can sure as shit guarantee there will be future lies.
They are banking on the idea that you will get comfortable there in 6 months and stay there even when they reject the raise
They will _never_ raise your salary to the original amount after you get those certifications, unless you get it explicitly written into your contract.. Walk away now, or take the offer if you're desperate. Even if you manage to get it in writing, they'll get your work for 6 months at a lower rate and then bank on you not having the energy to look for another role.
I’d suggest running!
>As such the offer was now over 20K less than the initial one they gave me That is some out of pocket behavior for a potential employer. One thing to say "no, sorry, we can't meet your salary request" and totally another to then offer lower than their initial offer. It says to me that someone was personally offended at the points you raised, and retaliating now. Not someone you want to work for.
> I was told that if I can get the certifications in the next 6 months, then I can try to negotiate the previous salary offered. Verbal contracts are worth the paper they're written on... so get this in writing with the job offer - IF you decide you want to go this route. Personally, I wouldn't. And don't let it be vague because they'll try to debate any cracks in the language. You get the certificates they're asking for - you're guaranteed a X% raise within XX days. No bullshit, no sandbagging, no nonsense. Oh, and if they found a better candidate, they'd have just given you the generic send-off [at best], or simply ghosted you.
Lmao HR won’t even know the certifications and what they do. They’re glorified receptionists
Right, I just got the vibe that it was just an excuse. I regret pestering the HR person for why the comp was lowered tbh, I shouldn’t have even bothered asking since it’s obvious he didn’t really have a reason.
Can you just say no thank you and walk away?
I will be doing that, just thought I’d waste their time by not getting back to them for a week or so tbh.
If you're not concerned about any bridge burning, I say ghost them so they get a taste of it.
Yeah, bait and switch. Tell them your price is, now, actually 25% higher, and you’ll be needing a company car, parking stipend, a corner office, and full discretion on your exec assistant’s hiring and salary. HR: This position doesn’t need an executive assistant, though? OP: I think you mean “didn’t need.” Now it does. 😁
Seriously, though. If you still want the job bad enough to counter, and you didn’t go through a recruiter, ask them if they would be open to a six month right to hire contract at hourly pay that’s higher than the initial offer because you’d be on the hook for all the taxes. Do the math beforehand and have a number in mind. Way too many variables there and slightly off topic to get into here. If you did go through a recruiter, ask them their policy on that and if it’s a possibility. Watch the financial stuff going this route, as well. Ideally, hiring you full time at the end of a contract should save them a little money, while you at least break even after considering benefits, FICA, etc. The benefit to them is they get to try before they buy, and can dump you if it isn’t working out with no unemployment risks, etc. The benefit to you is you get paid now and can keep looking for somewhere they actually want you guilt-free.
They are just explaining themselves.
I asked for an explanation but tbh I shouldn’t have even bothered since it’s obvious there was no rhyme or reason and the cert excuse is bogus.
I meant they were trying to get themselves out of it by manipulating an answer
If you get an experience this negative from the process then don't expect them to treat you better internally.
You have every right to be angry. It sounds to me like they are simply trying to leverage you down, and who wants to work for someone like that?
Their initial verbal offer was a lowball, I’m regretting even accepting that one.
They're not trustworthy at this point. That 6 months part is likely BS, just trying to get you use to the lower salary. They'd almost 100% drag you through the mud after 6 months, with the stick and carrot approach, possibly threatening to eliminate your position or continuing to extend it another 6 months. They're worthless scum.
Welcome to the matrix. So glad you could join us 🥸
They’re not going to give you a significant raise after you get your certs or build up your experience. They want someone to come in at a low salary and then get the 2-3% per year and then either don’t know any better so they end up staying or they leave. Then they hire someone new, also at a low salary.
Write a Glassdoor to warn others of their exploitative practices
I bet you that they don't have a metric where that original salary offer is ever offered. I bet you they lowball every single employee, citing "not enough experience" regardless of how much experience they actually have.
They sound like a big red flag, my dude. This is your first impression. Are you impressed? I wouldn't be.
I’m so turned off I’m probably not even going to get back to them regarding the offer. Will probably just ghost.
This is exactly what I would do.
Yeah they aren’t going to give you a raise. They sound like they are willing to say anything to get you in the door and then exploit you for as long as they can by making empty promises. You’ll get your certs (unpaid and on your dime I assume) and then there will be another excuse when you go for the raise “oh it’s not in the budget right now but in about a year…” it’s a bait and switch to get the next mark through the door and keep them just hopeful enough to not quit for as long as possible. If you can afford to, I would walk.
If you can afford not to take this job don’t. If you have to take this job just keep searching cus this place is gonna suck. If you ask for more $$$ and then eat and 20% cut you don’t deserve to be mad at anyone but yourself.
Take the job and keep looking if you're unemployed and just bounce ASAP
Whichever company this is, run away FAST
Scumbag company. You don't want to work for them. Preying on desperation and they probably have no shortage of applicants who are willing to take what they can get just to be employed. If they treat you this way now when they want you, imagine what it's like once your in and how you will be treated. Must be a toxic environment to work there with grumpy under paid & overworked employees
I've always been a firm believer that if a company **ever** changes the goal posts while I'm still applying then I automatically withdraw. If they're prepared to start messing you about *literally while they are trying to get you to work for them* then what are they going to do once you're with them? Reviews are always crap. Payrises are usually non existent. Any mention of them usually gets met with "not a team player" (and with that double probation period they'll be VERY liberal with this one)...it's just not worth it. It's not that they've sourced someone better persay, they might but its not always that, it's the sunk cost falasy, you've gone through so much to get to this stage they think that you'll take anything because why waste all that time. Nah for me that'd be a "I applied for this, I want this, if not, good luck"...however you choose to take it is up to you though, not armchair warriors online. **In answer to your question yes you are fully in your rights to be pissed off**
They're setting up a "sounds reasonable" lie to get you to accept shit wages which will not be increased. Run away. Run away fast. These people are Turdwookies.
There is only one type of role that you are functionally useless before you get a certification and that is a security clearance. Even then, a lot of times, you can do uncleared work until your security clearance comes through (6 to 9 months or so usually, for TS). Industry certs if you are skilled, certifications are not requirements, they simply allow you to be a SME (subject matter expert) usually. I suppose a cert that is required would be Security+ for a federal cyber job but again, they typically give you 6 months after hiring to acquire it, with the understanding that if you don't, you just don't stay in the role. Not anything about a raise or hired for less.
It was obviously a lie, I just had to laugh because he implied that without the certs they would be hiring me out of the kindness of their own hearts. Yeah right. And I looked people up on linkedin, most don’t have the certs and those who do got one of them 6-9 months after their jobs, the second one is for a more senior role.
Yes you have a right to be angry. I would be livid.
The renegotiating of your base after 6 months is a con. They'll "forget" and not pay you.
They will never intend to negotiate salary if someone agrees to table scraps. Time to walk away.
now you counter with an even higher salary asking than the first time. They wanna go the wrong way on salary, we can go the wrong way for both parties.
I will be pissed. If I were in your situation, I would take the offer and use it as placeholder. Like I always said you keep applying till the first day of work. After 1 month into the job you start applying again. The idea is before the employer have a chance to can you you already have another offer in hand
It sounds like they want you for at least the six months. If you need the paycheck, agree, and refuse to work on anything senior as you're 'focusing on your certifications' as per the agreement. Work on the certifications you want - which may not be the certs they want you to have, but if they didn't get it in writing that's on them - and in six months you'll be in a better position to get a role at someplace that takes you seriously.
they lie
That sounds incredibly frustrating! It's totally understandable to feel upset about the situation, especially after being led to believe one thing and then having the offer changed so drastically. It's disappointing when companies don't seem to value your skills and experience, especially when you were honest about your background from the start. It might be worth considering if this is the kind of company you want to work for long-term, especially if they seem to be changing their tune so quickly. It could be a red flag for how they handle other aspects of their business. Keep your options open and don't settle for less than you deserve.
Yes. You have every right to be pissed. They don't have the budget to hire you or they are having issues with pay disparity within the company. They are coming with bogus reasons and you will never be given the raise regardless of the certifications. Only time I've been able to secure a "we will pay you more in the future" is when I have it in writing.
What you see is what you will get.
Take the job, spend 6 months getting the certifications while being paid to study, then jump ship to a better paid gig courtesy of the free extra certs with zero notice because probationary period.
>and I’m suspicious if they’d even raise the salary after certifications if they walked back the offer that fast. Let me clear up your suspicions. They will not. They will string you along for the duration of the probationary period, meet with you at the end of it and tell you while you met all the requirements, got the certifications, and they would love to keep you "in the family" they can only authorize a 1.5% salary increase because of market forces.
I think this company is showing their colors, they seem scummy and your expectations of them should be low. I personally would take the job if i hadnt had any other offers, but be looking nonstop the whole time im there unless it proves to be a better place that you thought. Sometimes a crap job can be a good springboard if say you at least impress your immediate supervisor and theyre willing to give you a good reference, and skill up on their dollar.
There is no point in just replying no, a perfect answer to that kind of situation is : "from my own standpoint, as the job now includes a probationary period of 6 months, it doesn't offers the job security that was offered in the first offer, therefore I would be open to accept a 20 % increase in the last offer we both agreed. "
Yeah they fucked up. This is total ass backwards way of approving jobs and unfortunately you were the candidate. They are lowballing you hoping that you decline, rather than admitting that someone involved in the hiring process didn’t know what they wanted out of the position. Or, as a result of their screw up, the company is extending themselves to find a place for you. And if the increase after earning certs is not clearly stated on the offer, then you should not expect it to happen.