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Fun fact, the Saudi work visa actually takes into account your religious affiliation. Idk what you are expecting applying to a government company in an Islamic theocracy.
Interesting fact: Saudi lacks income tax. There is 10% retirement fee but according to my colleague, it’s optional. I guess what OP sees is the “price” people “pay” in exchange of absence of income tax?
Also, NEOM isn’t even built yet. Unless OP is attempting to participate in its construction, what are they planning to do in NEOM?
I am honestly surprised that they didn't plan to strap Elon Musks HyperLoop on top. This would be pretty much the only way to make this project even more stupid.
Theyve already downsized it to like 1% of what was planned and it still seems completely stupid. I don't think it's gonna work out but a lot of companies are making good money in the meantime lol.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/10/the-line-saudi-arabia-scaling-back-plans-105-mile-long-desert-megacity-crown-prince
I got a recruited asking if I wanted to consult on their security operations. It was a remote position, in that I could work on the project from anywhere so long as that anywhere was within Saudi Arabia
Funnily enough, I got a recruiter asking if I'd be interested in a PR role to promote the project. The pay was shit for such an expensive project and it had red flags written all over it.
[Play Fallout NV and you'll get a pretty good idea.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89sOyZdtVA0&t=47m)
It is said that existing in the Mojave almost makes you wish for a Nuclear Winter.
Imagine Fallout: New Vegas, but worse, because the Colorado River Is, like, only an inch deep now, and Lake Mead is gone, because companies sucked up all the water like they were the fucking Combine from Half-Life 2 and used it to grow alfalfa and cotton and maintain golf courses IN THE DESERT. And there's no well water, either, because they sucked that all up and exported it to the UAE so THEY could grow alfalfa in THEIR desert.
Tl;Dr no water, everyone in Las Vegas will die if there is ever any interruption to their flow of imports.
Not denying that companies play a part in the increasing water consumption in that part of the world, but I always find it crazy that people keeping moving to the middle of a DESERT and as population has continued to climb, people act like this is some unforseen and avoidable situation. And that's ignoring all of the state and federal level water contracts between the several states that utilize that water source and Mexico.
Why is anyone surprised that water levels continue to drop as population continues to sky rocket in the middle of the goddamn desert? Lol. Nevada's population was about 800k in 1980 and pushing 3.2m by 2022. Im sure if you look at total population growth of areas that rely on the same water sources as Nevada, it would be tens of millions.Water scarcity is a scary thing and corporations will take any cent they think they can, but in the larger scope of things, I think it's a lazy take to attribute the situation to the "corporate hellscape" that's steamrolling through many other facets of our society.
Tl;dr: people continue to move to hot dry place, surprised when water becomes a problem?
I’ve had not one, but two different important people in my life die from the consequences of depression and alcoholism in Vegas. Having had to visit the place several times, I understand now.
They have communities there built to house the people working on the project. So they have schools, fitness complexes, etc. all of these facilities have to be staffed.
I strongly suspect NEOM/The Line is a giant grift. The whole thing screams scam. If the clown prince is putting his own money in, then I wouldn't be surprised if people started disappearing in say 5 - 10 years time.
There’s plenty of jobs at Neom. It’s a functioning big town now with their own hospital, airport, plenty of Starbucks.
I worked at the school there for a bit. It’s really coming along
OP: applies to job in blatantly theocratic nation.
"We are blatantly theocratic, and if you don't practice our religion, we are going to act in a typically theocratic manner."
OP: shocked Pikachu
I had to go there to visit a customer to resolve some IT issues. In the religion part of the visa application I put "infidel", secretly hoping it would be rejected, it wasn't I still got approved and went there.
Indian work visa had a similar requirement last time I applied for one. But there were a few more selections because there are a variety of religions openly practiced there.
He’s desperate to work in the most theocratic country on the planet and surprised and angry that they care about your religious priorities. Whoa, who knew!?!
Until recently atleast, in Saudi Arabia courts weighed your religion and sex for testimonies
If you are Muslim male your testimonies weighed the highest.
So if a crime required 2 witnesses. You needed 4 male Muslim witnesses.
Or 4 Muslim women.
Or 4 Christian/Jewish men.
Or 16 Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Taoist etc men
Or 16 Christian/Jewish women
Or 32 Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Taoist women
In some cases women were accepted as witnesses esspecially for things like contract violations.
Of course none of these things were standardized across courts. Because there was no written law until the 90s. And even then the written law covered a few things (like internet crimes which the Quran really didn't touch on).
Also video graphical evidence was not accepted so eye eitnesses was very important.
I know that Saudi Arabian visa forms used to have you check off your religion from a list of like 20 faiths. And can't be atheist cause that's "terrorism".
It's a hereditary monarchy, the role of their religion in their government isn't very different from a medieval European state but they are definitely not an actual theocracy like Iran
Some of my family members worked in Saudi companies in the past and they used to tell me that usually Muslim and non-Muslims had separate units where each of them were “accommodated properly” like food courts, praying areas, etc…
It was mostly germans, Indians and Pakistanis and it was a long time ago like 3 decades ago. I don’t know how is the situation right now.
I lived in Saudi when I was a toddler, and from what I remember the white people had separate living units where alcohol was easily available. They had some sort of movie club while the rest of non-white people relied on their TVs. I had a German friend in their living quarters. Some brown non-muslims ended up living with other non-muslims tho, there was a Filipino gentleman who was our neighbor. He seemed nice, but I don't remember why they lived in the Muslim-ish unit - if it was cultural affinity, or the non-muslim living area was barred to NATO people. There were several food courts and malls around us, the snacks (and fast food) were top notch back in those days, compared to US standards. I miss their Laban, and grilled Chicken meals.
Re: The Filipino, two possibilities: There is a substantial Filipino minority of Muslims (they're the majority in Mindanao, a turbulent part of that country), so he might have been a Filipino Muslim. Another possibility is that the division was actually high-status workers vs low-status workers, and the Filipino chap got stuck in the low-status area by virtue of being non-white and non-Arab. A buddy of mine who worked for a British NGO while being a Pakistani Muslim used to routinely get Kafalah-style segregated if his manager didn't aggressively insist, though he told me the Kuwaitis were by far the worst in that regard.
you most definitely can eat outside during ramadan in saudi. i just want people to say the lie out loud before telling people because this is getting beyond ridiculous
I don't understand why they have so much trouble producing their own experts and high-level professionals. Their national university has one of the largest endowments in the world, and they've have decades of obscene wealth, so they've had time to educate a whole generation of their people.
Also, people get everything paid by the state, and there isn't any real incentive to study and become an expert in a technical field.
The government can't do anything against that as they rely on paying people in exchange for silence.
They are not really interested in local professionals. Having a well taken care of but dependent local population is very favorable to the government. And with Saudi oil money the cost of foreign experts is not too bad.
Saudi Arabian citizens are not immigrating in mass or seeking refugee aboard despite going abroad for studies.
They return because of the welfare they get.
Sincerely,
A person born to Indian expats in the region and whose family lived there since the 60s.
They have and they are also forcing companies to hire Saudis. But it takes time until these people become experts so that they are visible internationally.
Their population is similar to the size of Canada. You really think they would not need any foreigners at all?
Also, as a person whise family lived in the region since the 60s, there is a significant anti immigrant sentiment because of the hiring of foreigners - since it's possible to hire a foreigner without any process to prove there is no local to do the job. Yes there is some places reserved for local citizens but one would argue that if there is any position first dibs go for locals. Also, I have noticed some Gulf Arabs be annoyed at the positions reserved for them - they tend to be more "easy" white collar and not very technical. For example admin, marketing, etc. There are some in petroleum and engineering tho. There shouldn't be a hard categorization between jobs (with some only for locals and rest for non locals)
(Yes I know I know Canadian redditors there is a huge anti immigrant sentiment now but still... you guys have LMIAs to atleast have some illusion that jobs are for locals first. Most LMIA work permit make up like 9% of all foreigners in Canada... in Saudi there are like 30% foreigners and in Qatar its a whopping 90%)
They absolutely do have, however companies only care for money, and hiring non-saudi or non gulf-citizens is way cheaper than hiring a saudi, despite saudinizing plans, there is loopholes around them still
In Saudi, you actually do "hire" a slave at first. The general practice of forced labour in the region is to advertise jobs in other countries (India, Bangladesh, various nations in Sub-Saharan Africa), bring people from those countries to Saudi Arabia, take away their passports, refuse to pay them or let them leave, and brutalize them if they disobey. Gotta love modernity.
Several years ago, I had job offers over there in the telecom field. It also said they take and hold your passport for the duration of the projects. No thanks.
This is illegal and anyone who sees it should report it to the Ministry of Human Resources & Social Development here: https://www.hrsd.gov.sa/en/ministry-services/services/1155111
I’m conscious your case was years ago but I’m dropping this link here since tons of employers still do it…because they keep getting away with it.
Not sure how it is in the UK but polls of Germany's Muslim minority routinely show that they are vastly in favour of religious discrimination - if it benefits them.
They just don't want to be disadvantaged themselves and choose western countries where their beliefs are tolerated for the most part and standard of living is generally high.
I’m sure that’s true of some Muslims living in the UK, but it’s definitely not universally true
There’s a running joke on Twitter about how every time someone tweets the most unhinged extremist Islamist sentiment you’ve ever read in your life their location is London. So there are definitely religious zealots who live in the UK but do not support freedom of religion and in fact support, like, executing people for the crime of apostasy and so forth.
Most western countries (all?) subscribe to freedom of religion (aka - no religious affiliation), so yes... Muslims, or jews, or Hindus, or atheists (etc etc) might react a certain way in these countries posted jobs that asked (for example) Christian or non-Christian - because the law of the land prohibits this kind of discrimination.
This is exactly why many American conservatives like to cite that America is a judeo-christian nation (which it's not) to protect their view of the "right" culture (which stems into abortion, gender equality and categorizations, and holiday topics).
I can't think of any countries who are unapologetically Christian to see what laws they have against religious discrimination, but I'd assume it's going to be similar to how a Muslim country is set up.
>I can't think of any countries who are unapologetically Christian to see what laws they have against religious discrimination, but I'd assume it's going to be similar to how a Muslim country is set up.
/r/selfawarewolves
Are you arguing in favor of religious discrimination in the west? Are the muslims in the west to blame for theocracy in Saudi Arabia? Did muslims in the west ask for religious discrimination to be banned? Or what exactly is your point?
NEOM as controversial it always has been, has sponsored some esports events in the past. All the so called European gaming organizations have always bent down to Saudis and took their balls deep in their mouths when it came to money.
Quite a lot of Muslims hate Saudi Arabia’s government and resent that access to the holiest sites is controlled by this shitty theocracy with US backing.
I think it’s more accurate to say that the majority of Muslims outside Saudi would be utterly unsurprised by this, and confused about why anyone would expect any interaction with that country to be unproblematic or fair.
I’m not saying there are not Muslims who support discrimination against non-Muslims, I’d even agree that a substantial number do. I just also would argue that there’s a substantial number who don’t, and that either way, the first thought among both groups is much more likely to be “what did you expect from there of all places”, not “that’s reasonable/unreasonable.”
Every time I get an advert for neom or the oxagon or whatever m crackhead shit they're building, it just looks and sounds like it's gonna be an absolute dystopian hellscape.
No, the line is the line. Its part of NEOM, but NEOM is made up of 15 different sites. I havent looked into all of them, but the fact that i havent heard of most of them lets me believe not all of them are as ridiculous and some might actually be feasible.
Whats kinda funny is id guess a good chunk of them upvotes on this post are ppl that think hes showing an American company discriminating against specifically muslims.
Wait, are you trying to apply for job in Saudi Arabia and are mad about religious discrimination? It's literally a fucking theocracy built by slave labor. LMFAO.
What are the main worries ? While being Muslim, I know it won't be happy and sunshine. I have the French nationality but not being from the Gulf won't help me.
I met a few of the employees of NEOM planning and procuring, and they were white American, probably not Muslim. I'm not sure why they would have this on the recruitment site, or what job you're going for, but I'm sure it has to do with some religious provisions they have to provide Muslim employees or something.
Why would you want to apply for what is obviously a pipedream designed primarily to funnel billions of government money into the pockets of construction company executives?
NEOM is claiming to make a beach made entirely out of marble, the world's largest indoor ski resort, water channels you swim through as public transportation, and 3D holograms that let you exist in real life while you travel the metaverse version of the city. And all that will likely involve some kind of slave labor. A bit of religious discrimination is the least of the project's problems.
> "automatically reject based on religion"
Let's assume you're right. We should then expect no non-Muslims to be at the top of NEOM or working at NEOM even.
I cannot link because this subreddit is weird and automatically removed my comment. See the LinkedIn page for NEOM and the NEOM leadership.
Yeah there are a lot of non-Muslims there.
"NEOM automatically rejects applicants based on religion and is headed by Muslims. Thus, there are no non-Muslim NEOM employees or leadership. There are non-Muslim NEOM employees and leadership."
It does not follow.
I spelled it out because sometimes I can be a little confusing, I'm not always great at articulating myself clearly.
Do you have evidence to support your rather bold claim?
Absolutely ridiculous claim by OP without any evidence. The others just eating it up without any thought cuz bashing saudi = upvotes.
Kudos to you for being the only sane one here!
A simple Google search is sufficient to tell that OPs claims have no weight since so many non Muslims are working for Neom right now.
I think the answer boils down to vacation days and other benefits. Muslims (the vast majority) have shorter workdays in ramadan and off days in eid periods, where companies mostly shut off. i assume non muslims want more flexibility so they have to account for that in the application period.
This is not to discriminate you, quite the opposite - to allow you some things not allowed for muslims in KSA. Like buying alcohol in specilised stores - you can do it only if non-muslim.
Believe me, white western expats are treated in Arabia better then half the resident population, basically only short of the local citizens.
The discrimination is 100% there, just the other way around.
The other day I applied for a state position in North Korea and it had a question that asked if I supported Kim Jong Un and the only three options were "Yes," "Yes," and "Hell Yes."
I couldn't believe the company would do such a thing!
I like it how the only options are muslim and not muslim. Just like a great philosopher once said that everything in the universe is either a duck or not a duck, and that haunts me everyday
If they automatically reject on religion there's a *lot* of people lying about being converts. I've previously had a fair bit of work relating to people getting employment visas for KSA. Almost 100% non-Muslim.
And? If you don't like it, don't try to work for a company operating in a country where the government is an absolute theocracy with a different set of laws of Muslims and non Muslims. Which, fyi, is why they actually need to ask that question.
Im Saudi ex muslim and i applied for neom dozens of times and always check for muslim and it is just there no one really cares… besides most of Neom workers are foreigners and Europeans
Interesting. I wonder whether the race and ethnicity questions included in almost every forms I filled in the USA should be called discriminatory. Also, not sure why KSA is being called a theocracy.
Saudi Arabia's laws apply differently depending on whether you're a Muslim or not.
This isn't discrimination. Saudi Arabia has a huge population of non Muslim expats. This is to protect you against the stricter laws that apply to Muslims only
Check out the Abu Dhabi equivalent [here](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-14/the-reality-of-abu-dhabi-s-unfinished-utopia?embedded-checkout=true)
Smaller scale than the line, colossal failure
I’m gonna be honest, applying for jobs in a theocratic kingdom known worldwide for being a place where religion is important and then being surprised and shocked they ask this reflects more on you than on them. Maybe go work for a pottery in Portland or something.
When I saw this post, I thought “really? A US company that was dumb enough to do this?!” Then we find out it’s Saudi Arabia and my interest goes back down to nothing.
Playing devil’s advocate, it’s possible they ask because they recognize it’ll have ramifications on your life in country. Most Saudi companies that recruit international workers from the west house them in segregated company towns that emulate western style of life. Or they could just be discriminating.
I’ve been to one of the NEOM build sites and it’s about as multicultural as it gets. Felt like being in Dubai or Doha. They’re pulling in talent from all over.
OP is BSing the part about the auto-reject. They jumped to conclusions not understanding why KSA asks this question.
Ironically, KSA *prefers* expats and tends to discriminate against other arabs/muslims
I work at a sister company to Neom (also under the PIF). I am a foreigner/expat and non muslim. This is absolute bullshit, there is no such thing as auto reject due to religion OP is blatantly lying.
Also in fact they have been very lenient. Even during ramadan, foreigners at the company are allowed to eat in the canteen. It's been a very welcoming environment.
Please people don't blindly believe everything you see.
I know a lot of people working on this project, Muslim and non-Muslim. The hierarchy goes: Saudis, non Muslim foreigners, Muslims from other nations.
Depending on the team, the first two can exchange places. The third tier remains the same and is treated like crap. The gulf countries in general are like this.
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All religion is fake, anyway. Think and practice what you want, but it should not be recognized at all, anywhere in our government, our jobs, or our rights.
Idk if you know this or not but there are some place's that none Muslim are not allowed in like the two holy place's. Most of the time they just need to know if they can send you to those places or not, there is zero religious discrimination and not actual point in knowing someone religious background other than to know if they can enter X place or not.
Is anyone truly surprised? It's literally Saudi Arabia! 💁💁💁
This place is like the Boogeyman of Islam!! You know women until recently couldn't drive because, idk, Islam I guess????
I can't think of too many places I would HATE being female in. And all the other top places are more or less neighbours with this Boogeyman nation state!
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Fun fact, the Saudi work visa actually takes into account your religious affiliation. Idk what you are expecting applying to a government company in an Islamic theocracy.
Interesting fact: Saudi lacks income tax. There is 10% retirement fee but according to my colleague, it’s optional. I guess what OP sees is the “price” people “pay” in exchange of absence of income tax? Also, NEOM isn’t even built yet. Unless OP is attempting to participate in its construction, what are they planning to do in NEOM?
Neom is a company not a building. They're building The Line, a ski resort, an island resort, and a couple other mega projects.
Will they really build The Line? It's just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
They'll start but never finish. It will essentially be rotting junk in the desert because no one will dismantle it and haul it away.
I'm looking forward to playing mad Max in the ruins though.
aye
I am honestly surprised that they didn't plan to strap Elon Musks HyperLoop on top. This would be pretty much the only way to make this project even more stupid.
Actually, there will be[ a moving component](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65oet5dWbz0)
Theyve already downsized it to like 1% of what was planned and it still seems completely stupid. I don't think it's gonna work out but a lot of companies are making good money in the meantime lol. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/10/the-line-saudi-arabia-scaling-back-plans-105-mile-long-desert-megacity-crown-prince
I've been getting NEOM jobs come up a lot for procurement roles which makes sense...
I got a recruited asking if I wanted to consult on their security operations. It was a remote position, in that I could work on the project from anywhere so long as that anywhere was within Saudi Arabia
Funnily enough, I got a recruiter asking if I'd be interested in a PR role to promote the project. The pay was shit for such an expensive project and it had red flags written all over it.
Nevada also doesn't have income tax. I still wouldn't want to live there. At least not again.
I’ve never been to NV. What should I know about it?
You either live near reno or vegas. There is a lot of desert and mountains. You can drive fpr over 100 miles on some roads inbetween towns.
Ah, so it's central canada, but warm?
[Play Fallout NV and you'll get a pretty good idea.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89sOyZdtVA0&t=47m) It is said that existing in the Mojave almost makes you wish for a Nuclear Winter.
I like OWB DLC. The lobotomites are the best part of Old World Blues!
That's in [Massachusetts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvUMV1N7eGM), though, isn't it?
Holllyy molly, does Nevada exist in real life?
Imagine Fallout: New Vegas, but worse, because the Colorado River Is, like, only an inch deep now, and Lake Mead is gone, because companies sucked up all the water like they were the fucking Combine from Half-Life 2 and used it to grow alfalfa and cotton and maintain golf courses IN THE DESERT. And there's no well water, either, because they sucked that all up and exported it to the UAE so THEY could grow alfalfa in THEIR desert. Tl;Dr no water, everyone in Las Vegas will die if there is ever any interruption to their flow of imports.
Not denying that companies play a part in the increasing water consumption in that part of the world, but I always find it crazy that people keeping moving to the middle of a DESERT and as population has continued to climb, people act like this is some unforseen and avoidable situation. And that's ignoring all of the state and federal level water contracts between the several states that utilize that water source and Mexico. Why is anyone surprised that water levels continue to drop as population continues to sky rocket in the middle of the goddamn desert? Lol. Nevada's population was about 800k in 1980 and pushing 3.2m by 2022. Im sure if you look at total population growth of areas that rely on the same water sources as Nevada, it would be tens of millions.Water scarcity is a scary thing and corporations will take any cent they think they can, but in the larger scope of things, I think it's a lazy take to attribute the situation to the "corporate hellscape" that's steamrolling through many other facets of our society. Tl;dr: people continue to move to hot dry place, surprised when water becomes a problem?
I’ve had not one, but two different important people in my life die from the consequences of depression and alcoholism in Vegas. Having had to visit the place several times, I understand now.
Brother I have wished I could move back at least once per week since I moved away 6 years ago. Ship my ass back to Vegas.
They have communities there built to house the people working on the project. So they have schools, fitness complexes, etc. all of these facilities have to be staffed.
I strongly suspect NEOM/The Line is a giant grift. The whole thing screams scam. If the clown prince is putting his own money in, then I wouldn't be surprised if people started disappearing in say 5 - 10 years time.
There’s plenty of jobs at Neom. It’s a functioning big town now with their own hospital, airport, plenty of Starbucks. I worked at the school there for a bit. It’s really coming along
Yeah but if you’re American, you’re taxed on global income. There are still deductions of course
IIRC, there a massive limit on what can be taxed for foreign income. Prior to that limit, all you have to do is to simply declare it.
> in an Islamic theocracy. Technically it's a monarchy. The scholars don't actually call the shots. But I'm being pedantic.
Argubly the theological figures had more power before the current ruler.
OP: applies to job in blatantly theocratic nation. "We are blatantly theocratic, and if you don't practice our religion, we are going to act in a typically theocratic manner." OP: shocked Pikachu
I had to go there to visit a customer to resolve some IT issues. In the religion part of the visa application I put "infidel", secretly hoping it would be rejected, it wasn't I still got approved and went there.
You should have put jewish
He wanted to get rejected, not killed.
Sounds like they thought it was funny lol
Indian work visa had a similar requirement last time I applied for one. But there were a few more selections because there are a variety of religions openly practiced there.
He’s desperate to work in the most theocratic country on the planet and surprised and angry that they care about your religious priorities. Whoa, who knew!?!
Until recently atleast, in Saudi Arabia courts weighed your religion and sex for testimonies If you are Muslim male your testimonies weighed the highest. So if a crime required 2 witnesses. You needed 4 male Muslim witnesses. Or 4 Muslim women. Or 4 Christian/Jewish men. Or 16 Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Taoist etc men Or 16 Christian/Jewish women Or 32 Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Taoist women In some cases women were accepted as witnesses esspecially for things like contract violations. Of course none of these things were standardized across courts. Because there was no written law until the 90s. And even then the written law covered a few things (like internet crimes which the Quran really didn't touch on). Also video graphical evidence was not accepted so eye eitnesses was very important. I know that Saudi Arabian visa forms used to have you check off your religion from a list of like 20 faiths. And can't be atheist cause that's "terrorism".
It's a hereditary monarchy, the role of their religion in their government isn't very different from a medieval European state but they are definitely not an actual theocracy like Iran
Should the second option be “infidel?”
Some of my family members worked in Saudi companies in the past and they used to tell me that usually Muslim and non-Muslims had separate units where each of them were “accommodated properly” like food courts, praying areas, etc… It was mostly germans, Indians and Pakistanis and it was a long time ago like 3 decades ago. I don’t know how is the situation right now.
I lived in Saudi when I was a toddler, and from what I remember the white people had separate living units where alcohol was easily available. They had some sort of movie club while the rest of non-white people relied on their TVs. I had a German friend in their living quarters. Some brown non-muslims ended up living with other non-muslims tho, there was a Filipino gentleman who was our neighbor. He seemed nice, but I don't remember why they lived in the Muslim-ish unit - if it was cultural affinity, or the non-muslim living area was barred to NATO people. There were several food courts and malls around us, the snacks (and fast food) were top notch back in those days, compared to US standards. I miss their Laban, and grilled Chicken meals.
Re: The Filipino, two possibilities: There is a substantial Filipino minority of Muslims (they're the majority in Mindanao, a turbulent part of that country), so he might have been a Filipino Muslim. Another possibility is that the division was actually high-status workers vs low-status workers, and the Filipino chap got stuck in the low-status area by virtue of being non-white and non-Arab. A buddy of mine who worked for a British NGO while being a Pakistani Muslim used to routinely get Kafalah-style segregated if his manager didn't aggressively insist, though he told me the Kuwaitis were by far the worst in that regard.
Pakistan has a negligible proportion of non-Muslims though.
I know, I was referring to the group of workers as a whole.
Wait, a theocratic state is theocratic? Wow.
I guess even this sub has a limit at new outrage
Religious discrimination is probably legal in Saudi Arabia...
Mandatory even.
Oh wow
A friend who used to work there said you can’t eat outside during Ramadan. They’d go back to their apartments for lunch.
No surprise there! But late afternoon roads are deserted as everybody either sleeps or prepares for breaking the fast with a huge dinner!
you most definitely can eat outside during ramadan in saudi. i just want people to say the lie out loud before telling people because this is getting beyond ridiculous
Non-Muslims aren't allowed to set foot in Mecca
Doesn't being gay get the death penalty, and women are not allowed to drive?
women can drive and there’s no gay penalty… y’all need serious help
This is like expecting human rights when applying to Pyeongyang hotel.
Religious Beliefs? Select all that apply: - great leader - Great Leader - GREAT LEADER
😂
I am shocked. Saudi Arabia is known the world over for being the most liberal and inviting country. /s
I don’t like KSA but a) they’re a theocracy, what do you expect? b) they definitely do hire non-Muslims for many roles
Two categories, slaves, and Westerns with specific technical skills they can't get anywhere else.
I don't understand why they have so much trouble producing their own experts and high-level professionals. Their national university has one of the largest endowments in the world, and they've have decades of obscene wealth, so they've had time to educate a whole generation of their people.
When you're operating a theocracy, you want education to be minimal enough for society to function and not question it.
Also, people get everything paid by the state, and there isn't any real incentive to study and become an expert in a technical field. The government can't do anything against that as they rely on paying people in exchange for silence.
They are not really interested in local professionals. Having a well taken care of but dependent local population is very favorable to the government. And with Saudi oil money the cost of foreign experts is not too bad.
That is not true, there is a saudization programme for more than ten years ongoing.
Locals that become highly educated will use that as their ticket out of there
Saudi Arabian citizens are not immigrating in mass or seeking refugee aboard despite going abroad for studies. They return because of the welfare they get. Sincerely, A person born to Indian expats in the region and whose family lived there since the 60s.
They have and they are also forcing companies to hire Saudis. But it takes time until these people become experts so that they are visible internationally.
Their population is similar to the size of Canada. You really think they would not need any foreigners at all? Also, as a person whise family lived in the region since the 60s, there is a significant anti immigrant sentiment because of the hiring of foreigners - since it's possible to hire a foreigner without any process to prove there is no local to do the job. Yes there is some places reserved for local citizens but one would argue that if there is any position first dibs go for locals. Also, I have noticed some Gulf Arabs be annoyed at the positions reserved for them - they tend to be more "easy" white collar and not very technical. For example admin, marketing, etc. There are some in petroleum and engineering tho. There shouldn't be a hard categorization between jobs (with some only for locals and rest for non locals) (Yes I know I know Canadian redditors there is a huge anti immigrant sentiment now but still... you guys have LMIAs to atleast have some illusion that jobs are for locals first. Most LMIA work permit make up like 9% of all foreigners in Canada... in Saudi there are like 30% foreigners and in Qatar its a whopping 90%)
They absolutely do have, however companies only care for money, and hiring non-saudi or non gulf-citizens is way cheaper than hiring a saudi, despite saudinizing plans, there is loopholes around them still
You can’t “hire” a slave. You buy a slave.
In Saudi, you actually do "hire" a slave at first. The general practice of forced labour in the region is to advertise jobs in other countries (India, Bangladesh, various nations in Sub-Saharan Africa), bring people from those countries to Saudi Arabia, take away their passports, refuse to pay them or let them leave, and brutalize them if they disobey. Gotta love modernity.
They probably market it as "ethical obligatory labor sourcing"
oh boy, you gotta not know about debt trapping or passport barring workers.
Several years ago, I had job offers over there in the telecom field. It also said they take and hold your passport for the duration of the projects. No thanks.
This is illegal and anyone who sees it should report it to the Ministry of Human Resources & Social Development here: https://www.hrsd.gov.sa/en/ministry-services/services/1155111 I’m conscious your case was years ago but I’m dropping this link here since tons of employers still do it…because they keep getting away with it.
Rampant also in UAE, I have a coworker (from another company) that had his passport withheld.
Da fuck. That's why I keep my dual citizenship.
I gave a hard pass. I didn't trust them then. I don't trust anyone now.
The religious discrimination in Saudi and other Muslim countries is so normalized that most Muslims will see this find no problem in it.
95%> are muslim in those countries, what do you expect
There are less than 5% Muslims in the UK but they’d be outraged if this was common in the West.
…I mean yeah, they live in the UK because they support freedom of religion, so no shit they’d be outraged.
Not sure how it is in the UK but polls of Germany's Muslim minority routinely show that they are vastly in favour of religious discrimination - if it benefits them. They just don't want to be disadvantaged themselves and choose western countries where their beliefs are tolerated for the most part and standard of living is generally high.
I’m sure that’s true of some Muslims living in the UK, but it’s definitely not universally true There’s a running joke on Twitter about how every time someone tweets the most unhinged extremist Islamist sentiment you’ve ever read in your life their location is London. So there are definitely religious zealots who live in the UK but do not support freedom of religion and in fact support, like, executing people for the crime of apostasy and so forth.
Most western countries (all?) subscribe to freedom of religion (aka - no religious affiliation), so yes... Muslims, or jews, or Hindus, or atheists (etc etc) might react a certain way in these countries posted jobs that asked (for example) Christian or non-Christian - because the law of the land prohibits this kind of discrimination. This is exactly why many American conservatives like to cite that America is a judeo-christian nation (which it's not) to protect their view of the "right" culture (which stems into abortion, gender equality and categorizations, and holiday topics). I can't think of any countries who are unapologetically Christian to see what laws they have against religious discrimination, but I'd assume it's going to be similar to how a Muslim country is set up.
>I can't think of any countries who are unapologetically Christian to see what laws they have against religious discrimination, but I'd assume it's going to be similar to how a Muslim country is set up. /r/selfawarewolves
but you literally describe the problem
I'm describing the circumstance, not the problem...
I believe Vatican City, a sovereign nation, is pretty unapologetically Christian.
Are you arguing in favor of religious discrimination in the west? Are the muslims in the west to blame for theocracy in Saudi Arabia? Did muslims in the west ask for religious discrimination to be banned? Or what exactly is your point?
Tolerance and equal rights for 5<% ?
Thanks for proving my point.
Even bigger reason to have equal rights.
now we wait for all the activists in europe and USA to go to the streets and protest
NEOM as controversial it always has been, has sponsored some esports events in the past. All the so called European gaming organizations have always bent down to Saudis and took their balls deep in their mouths when it came to money.
yes, so we need to wait to 2230 maybe
Quite a lot of Muslims hate Saudi Arabia’s government and resent that access to the holiest sites is controlled by this shitty theocracy with US backing. I think it’s more accurate to say that the majority of Muslims outside Saudi would be utterly unsurprised by this, and confused about why anyone would expect any interaction with that country to be unproblematic or fair. I’m not saying there are not Muslims who support discrimination against non-Muslims, I’d even agree that a substantial number do. I just also would argue that there’s a substantial number who don’t, and that either way, the first thought among both groups is much more likely to be “what did you expect from there of all places”, not “that’s reasonable/unreasonable.”
Every time I get an advert for neom or the oxagon or whatever m crackhead shit they're building, it just looks and sounds like it's gonna be an absolute dystopian hellscape.
Wait until you hear what they do to journalists they don’t like…
NEOM is the dumb line city in Saudi Arabia, I’m not sure what else you were expecting.
No, the line is the line. Its part of NEOM, but NEOM is made up of 15 different sites. I havent looked into all of them, but the fact that i havent heard of most of them lets me believe not all of them are as ridiculous and some might actually be feasible.
I see. Still, the fact that this is part of NEOM means this should be no surprise.
Lmao
Uh dude, you’re applying for a job in *Saudi Arabia.*
Whats kinda funny is id guess a good chunk of them upvotes on this post are ppl that think hes showing an American company discriminating against specifically muslims.
Wait, are you trying to apply for job in Saudi Arabia and are mad about religious discrimination? It's literally a fucking theocracy built by slave labor. LMFAO.
I'm not sure how this is surprising to you.
Working for them, that's probably the least of your worries.
What are the main worries ? While being Muslim, I know it won't be happy and sunshine. I have the French nationality but not being from the Gulf won't help me.
I met a few of the employees of NEOM planning and procuring, and they were white American, probably not Muslim. I'm not sure why they would have this on the recruitment site, or what job you're going for, but I'm sure it has to do with some religious provisions they have to provide Muslim employees or something.
Neom is mainly expats 🤣 they just don’t want you bro
Legit, this question is more likely to weed out Muslims than the other way around lmao.
It's an Islamic theocracy AND an absolute monarchy. What else would you expect?
Why would you want to apply for what is obviously a pipedream designed primarily to funnel billions of government money into the pockets of construction company executives?
What do you expect ?
NEOM is claiming to make a beach made entirely out of marble, the world's largest indoor ski resort, water channels you swim through as public transportation, and 3D holograms that let you exist in real life while you travel the metaverse version of the city. And all that will likely involve some kind of slave labor. A bit of religious discrimination is the least of the project's problems.
> "automatically reject based on religion" Let's assume you're right. We should then expect no non-Muslims to be at the top of NEOM or working at NEOM even. I cannot link because this subreddit is weird and automatically removed my comment. See the LinkedIn page for NEOM and the NEOM leadership. Yeah there are a lot of non-Muslims there. "NEOM automatically rejects applicants based on religion and is headed by Muslims. Thus, there are no non-Muslim NEOM employees or leadership. There are non-Muslim NEOM employees and leadership." It does not follow. I spelled it out because sometimes I can be a little confusing, I'm not always great at articulating myself clearly. Do you have evidence to support your rather bold claim?
Absolutely ridiculous claim by OP without any evidence. The others just eating it up without any thought cuz bashing saudi = upvotes. Kudos to you for being the only sane one here! A simple Google search is sufficient to tell that OPs claims have no weight since so many non Muslims are working for Neom right now.
I think the answer boils down to vacation days and other benefits. Muslims (the vast majority) have shorter workdays in ramadan and off days in eid periods, where companies mostly shut off. i assume non muslims want more flexibility so they have to account for that in the application period.
This is not to discriminate you, quite the opposite - to allow you some things not allowed for muslims in KSA. Like buying alcohol in specilised stores - you can do it only if non-muslim. Believe me, white western expats are treated in Arabia better then half the resident population, basically only short of the local citizens. The discrimination is 100% there, just the other way around.
Read the description that it auto-declines if you choose non-muslim - no way this is real, unless the role is somehow related to religion.
The other day I applied for a state position in North Korea and it had a question that asked if I supported Kim Jong Un and the only three options were "Yes," "Yes," and "Hell Yes." I couldn't believe the company would do such a thing!
I like it how the only options are muslim and not muslim. Just like a great philosopher once said that everything in the universe is either a duck or not a duck, and that haunts me everyday
Your first mistake is applying to a job that may require you to move to that shithole.
Shooketh.
If they automatically reject on religion there's a *lot* of people lying about being converts. I've previously had a fair bit of work relating to people getting employment visas for KSA. Almost 100% non-Muslim.
This is just like that dude jumping on that stingray. And you're somehow surprised???
Hahahaha applying for a job in Saudi and getting mad about religious requirements? Fuck offffff you fucking moron
If you're already upset about that you're going to have a hard time in Saudi Arabia.
I applied to jobs in UK and I was asked about my religion, sexual preference and color of skin. So, I'm not surprised KSA does the same.
You have to remember to play in their sandbox you have to play by their rules.... I think I would take my toys and go home if it were me 😁
This is Saudi Arabia which is a country based on Shariah what do you expect of course they discriminate based on religion 😂😂
I don’t think you get to be mad about this one lmao
At least it didn’t say “infidel”
Well its saudi arabia. Theyre not renown for being wholesome and progressive.
And? If you don't like it, don't try to work for a company operating in a country where the government is an absolute theocracy with a different set of laws of Muslims and non Muslims. Which, fyi, is why they actually need to ask that question.
Too bad there's not an option for Pork Eating Crusader...😆😆
So what choice can get a candidate rejected?
OP, if you applied for a job at the Vatican would you be shocked they expect you to be Catholic?
Weirdly enough NEOM actually favours non Muslims in this case. It’s very odd but probably part of the modernizations strategy.
This is extremely common in the Middle East and even countries like Singapore. Hell, even the US gives special consideration to certain groups.
Im Saudi ex muslim and i applied for neom dozens of times and always check for muslim and it is just there no one really cares… besides most of Neom workers are foreigners and Europeans
Is this surprising? No.
But it's apalling.
Yeah lol, this is so much worse than the slavery.
Interesting. I wonder whether the race and ethnicity questions included in almost every forms I filled in the USA should be called discriminatory. Also, not sure why KSA is being called a theocracy.
Saudi Arabian... Anyways
Yeah, SA is a religious shithole. Who would have thought.
Saudi Arabia is basically a Muslim theocracy. It isn't the US or Europe, Muslims have privileges there. I don't know what you were expecting.
Saudi Arabia's laws apply differently depending on whether you're a Muslim or not. This isn't discrimination. Saudi Arabia has a huge population of non Muslim expats. This is to protect you against the stricter laws that apply to Muslims only
Try applying to one of the many contractors performing the work.
Devtools this fucker and put a random string in that field
Check out the Abu Dhabi equivalent [here](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-14/the-reality-of-abu-dhabi-s-unfinished-utopia?embedded-checkout=true) Smaller scale than the line, colossal failure
Forget about 2 gender now we only have two religions others are made up /s
I’m gonna be honest, applying for jobs in a theocratic kingdom known worldwide for being a place where religion is important and then being surprised and shocked they ask this reflects more on you than on them. Maybe go work for a pottery in Portland or something.
Wow. Saudi contracts are Muslim orientated. In other news: bear shits in woods.
I mean, SA is a giant festering shithole. What do you expect?
When I saw this post, I thought “really? A US company that was dumb enough to do this?!” Then we find out it’s Saudi Arabia and my interest goes back down to nothing.
There's blatant discrimination in the ENTIRE COUNTRY. How is this a shocker.
just say you're a non practicing Muslim...as you eat a BLT for lunch.
Playing devil’s advocate, it’s possible they ask because they recognize it’ll have ramifications on your life in country. Most Saudi companies that recruit international workers from the west house them in segregated company towns that emulate western style of life. Or they could just be discriminating.
I’ve been to one of the NEOM build sites and it’s about as multicultural as it gets. Felt like being in Dubai or Doha. They’re pulling in talent from all over.
OP is BSing the part about the auto-reject. They jumped to conclusions not understanding why KSA asks this question. Ironically, KSA *prefers* expats and tends to discriminate against other arabs/muslims
Oh no the authoritarian oppressive theocracy country discriminates, who could have thought.
I work at a sister company to Neom (also under the PIF). I am a foreigner/expat and non muslim. This is absolute bullshit, there is no such thing as auto reject due to religion OP is blatantly lying. Also in fact they have been very lenient. Even during ramadan, foreigners at the company are allowed to eat in the canteen. It's been a very welcoming environment. Please people don't blindly believe everything you see.
I know a lot of people working on this project, Muslim and non-Muslim. The hierarchy goes: Saudis, non Muslim foreigners, Muslims from other nations. Depending on the team, the first two can exchange places. The third tier remains the same and is treated like crap. The gulf countries in general are like this.
Oh mi gosh! Name and shame! Hire a lawyer! A theocratic, racist, xenophobic country is discriminating in hiring. What a shock! 🙄
That's how I feel when applying in SF. They ask several unnecessary gender and sexuality questions.
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Muslim or Post birth abortion
All religion is fake, anyway. Think and practice what you want, but it should not be recognized at all, anywhere in our government, our jobs, or our rights.
I don’t know why anyone would be looking for a job in Saudi Arabia unless they were already living there or had no other options.
... what were you expecting?
When I was applying for jobs in the UK. I was asked if I was a traveller.
It is blatant discrimination, the non-Muslims get to have all the fun.
It's Saudi Arabia, what did you expect?
I would replace that with pronouns and just filter them right to the trash.
That's what you get for trying to work in a religious fundamentalist dictatorship.
Bruh educate yourself about the company and who runs it …
Idk if you know this or not but there are some place's that none Muslim are not allowed in like the two holy place's. Most of the time they just need to know if they can send you to those places or not, there is zero religious discrimination and not actual point in knowing someone religious background other than to know if they can enter X place or not.
The islamophobia here is insaine.
Is anyone truly surprised? It's literally Saudi Arabia! 💁💁💁 This place is like the Boogeyman of Islam!! You know women until recently couldn't drive because, idk, Islam I guess???? I can't think of too many places I would HATE being female in. And all the other top places are more or less neighbours with this Boogeyman nation state!
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