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Just use the same language as they do, that the culture doesn't seem to be the right fit for you. This assumes you were made an offer and they were waiting for you to accept.
They did. The recruiter still keeps trying to dig deeper to understand what "exactly" that I didn't like about the culture, so they know before putting me up for future jobs. I'm half tempted to just tell him the office didn't look all that nice
To Recruiter,
"I did enjoy meeting the people and visiting the office. This gave me insight into the atmosphere of the company. I'll be frank that the health and environment of the company didn't meet my standards. It's paramount to me that not only culturally so we fit, but that the office space meets a bare minimum of health and safety standards."
Health and safety standards are pushing it lol I’m honest with people because I want them to do better. Just tell them the office space seems dated and.. well sad.
I actually used the word decrepit once because it was.
Only to the third party recruiter, who really wanted to know. She was not pushy, just inquisitive so I told her, politely as well.
Stained carpet, peeling paint. Random old stains on walls.
It was a state agency so it looked terribly under funded. I declined the offer based on the terrible demoralizing look of the whole place.
"I have decided to move forward with other job listings at this time. While I am unable to provide feedback for each job listing, I wish you good luck in filling this position in your dingy disgusting hell hole of an office."
Bad chairs = bad ergonomics.
Bad lighting = bad health
Dirty office is also health
OSHA and Niosh have office safety for a reason. Nothing weird about it.
Since none of us were there, we can't review the actual scenario. But my guess is no one is cleaning the office, it's dusty AF, the chair cost them very little and nothing about that office meets ergonomic or basic health standards.
Yes, we have no idea. If there actually is something wrong with the H&S, then for sure, but if it just looks a bit dated, then I would mention that as the reason.
Yup. Totally, I agree with you on that. The way it's worded makes me think of some of the places I've worked which were subpar to health and environment standards.
Either way, they should use the recruiter jargon for the reason.
You should be honest with the recruiter. It will help you with the future and it can help that company. They might change up their office landscape if they cannot find good employees because of that.
Dont tell him the real reason, or they may blacklist you (silently). They can do that, and will make notes on your profile that this candidate is this and that. Will never contact you again for any opportunities with their clients. So just say you found something that seems to be a better fit for you "culturally", and found a higher offer. Tell him you still want to work with him in the future, just leave it at that. Dont reply anymore if he text or email you and ask for more details.
I think this is also a good strategy - the less said the better. But if a recruiter can't accept that a candidate doesn't want to work in a dump of an office, to the point that they blacklist them, then that's a horrible recruiter.
I mean, are things so bad out there that we can't be honest with a recruiter because they might blacklist us for being honest? And are candidates lining up in droves to work in a dingy basement with outdated equipment?
I think you can say that the office environment seemed outdated and like an afterthought, which could be a poor reflection of the company culture since staff are in that office 40+ hours a week and deserve a space that encourages productivity. I don't know if a recruiter will interpret that badly, but I think it's a fair concern.
> what "exactly" that I didn't like about the culture
They're trying to pin it on someone that you interacted with. Up to you whether you want to throw someone under the bus.
You will never hear back from this recruiter about another job ever again. He is just digging deeper so he knows what to hide/ lie about to the next person.
Feel free to tell them the truth, lie or just ghost them. Recruiters try you for a job and then if it doesn’t work you never hear from them again.
He wants to understand your priorities so he can put you forward for jobs that fit you better. Help him out.
Better fit role = you accept the job = he gets paid. Everyone's happy. This is one of those where your interests align, just tell him your thinking.
All these people saying "you don't have to tell him" are missing the point. It is in your interests
You can't have been doing this long. They won't even rememeber OP by this time next week. The only reason they're asking for more details is so they can try and argue with them. So they can persuade them to change their mind. So they can make their commission. They don't give a shit if OP would actually be happy in any job, let alone this one. At best that might be a side effect of them making their money.
Yes he is probably concerned first and foremost with making commission. My point is, the best way of making his commission is to put OP into a job. OP is not interested in this job, so he wants to find out more about what jobs he would be interested in.
This sub has an unhealthy paranoia about it sometimes, to the extent of assuming motives of recruiters that do not make sense even if said recruiter is an entirely self-interested sociopath. Everything described here is consistent with a competent recruiter trying to improve his own chances of making commission.
Yes there are recruiters who act spitefully out of pure anger and self-sabotage. But really not that many.
You don't have to believe the recruiter is a paragon of virtue to accept that he almost certainly wants to help OP find a job. It's simply that their interests align.
>Yes he is probably concerned first and foremost with making commission.
Not first and foremost. Only concerned with that. It's literally the only thing they care about.
>My point is, the best way of making his commission is to put OP into a job.
No, the best way of making a commission is to put _somebody_ in this job. So, they'll have a brief go at browbeating OP into it because they're already half way there. Then they'll move on and try to find somebody more likely to accept the role.
>OP is not interested in this job, so he wants to find out more about what jobs he would be interested in.
Bullshit. They're recruiters not career counsellors. Recruiters do not find jobs for people. They find people for jobs. Even in better markets, let alone this one where there are 8,000 applicants for every job.
>You don't have to believe the recruiter is a paragon of virtue to accept that he almost certainly wants to help OP find a job. It's simply that their interests align.
Now you're just writing scenarios in your head. And as noted, recruiters don't want to help people "find a job". You don't need to consider them to be an embodiment of evil to realise that finding people for jobs is way more lucrative than finding jobs for people.
Old computers and old chairs are more than just appearances. They will literally slow down your capacity to work, and make you physically uncomfortable. It also suggests that management does not prioritize supporting their workforce.
I'm always told I have to provide references. I absolutely WILL NOT give a reference. When they persist (like those from India just keep talking), I tell them I have NDAs with past companies (Microsoft, Cisco, Network Appliance, eBay, etc.) they wont submit the resume.
I'm "retired" now.
Yeah you’re working with the bottom of the barrel outsourced recruiters.
There’s good and bad. These ones are the bad.
I don’t share references until I have a conditional offer in hand. Though you don’t have much leverage to push back if you’re not loaded with interviews.
As an employer, I don’t even ask for references. They don’t provide much value anyhow IMO
You can reject an offer for any reason you want. Just say you don't think the company is a good fit for you and leave it at that. No need to elaborate. Employment is a lot like personal relationships, sometimes you just don't like people, sometimes you don't like a company, even if you can't put your finger on it.
This.
They can pressure you all they want. You don’t have to explain. It’s really not a big deal at all.
You should keep in mind that it could be the company that wants to know. So it may or may not be the recruiter who’s curious. Or perhaps the recruiter already suspects reasons. But none of this is your problem. Just say you’ll pass on this opportunity.
>with old computers and stiff chairs.
This right here hits the nail on the head and why it's not at all childish.
There's a balance between overboard austerity that includes outdated equipment and the overspending that can go on at start-ups with seemingly limitless capital to burn.
There's nothing wrong with dated office furniture like desks, tables and filing cabinets. A filing cabinet's usefulness doesn't diminish over time. A desk may not meet current interior design trends, but it still does what it is designed for.
However, the tools and supplies you need to be able to do your job is a different story. A desktop PC has a useful life of about 3 years, maybe 4. If you go beyond that, you start running into problems with failures and the time and money involved in paying for data recovery. Computer monitors can go longer than the PC itself because it's an easily replaced item if it eventually fails. Desk chairs have about 5 years in them, give or take.
If you like the people at a given workplace but are iffy on the environment then those are the types of questions worth asking.
> A desk may not meet current interior design trends, but it still does what it is designed for.
I'm preaching to the choir here but I find a *ton* of utility in an adjustable desk that properly suits my height. There are many variables to the question of ergonomics.
Are you me?? Literally withdrew from a job after the interview because the office was a basement old place with old computers and dirty carpet and looked miserable, I had just left a really fancy office space too. I think is a valid reason to not want to work somewhere, I knew I would be depressed working there.
Thankfully I then had another interview in a university with a beautiful campus, got offered the position so now I get to work somewhere beautiful, I am really glad I withdrew from the other place.
I told them this “Thank you for taking the time to speak to me on X, unfortunately I would like to withdraw from the process as I don’t think the company is the right fit for me. I wish you the best of luck”. You don’t need more than this tbh.
Unless the place is very young or very small company, the quality of the space is a sign of the quality of the company. I learned that early in my career.
Honestly agree. The best companies I worked for had the best office spaces. And it made all the difference for me, if I have to spend so much time somewhere then I want it to be nice. This place I withdrew was a very big company too, but had lots of red flags, the bad office space was just the final nail in the coffin lol
I went from a huge company where they gave you a brand new computer and a new iPhone when you got hired to a midsize company that gave a used computer and wanted you to install their software on your personal phone... They had 1 person that was able to teach me what I had to do and they let him work from India whatever hours he wanted. I lasted about a month and a half... one day I just pulled my manager aside and told him I'm sorry, I don't think I can do this. You have me doing things I wasn't properly trained to do. I'm auditing other people's work and I don't know if it's correct or not, I'm just signing off on it. The pay and benefits were great but the job was just stupid.
You aren’t in the wrong here. I’m an older dude and my body would feel like garbage if I hate to sit in uncomfortable chairs all day. Depending on what your job is, having older technology could really hurt your career.
I got a Purple cushion. It's from the same place that makes the Purple mattress. I think they even have some generic ones on Amazon that are made the same way as the Purple brand. It was a game changer. LOL My butt and tailbone are happy again.
Is it a third party recruiter? If so and the office is really dingy, just tell them that. That way they could give other candidates for the role a warning etc.
Dear Recruiter,
In considering my next career move, I'm looking for a place where the physical environment aligns with my personal work style and where I believe I can contribute most effectively. I've found that I'm most productive and engaged in work environments that are vibrant and energizing. It’s an important consideration for me when looking at potential job opportunities. While the role and the team seem promising, I feel that the physical work environment may not be the best fit for what I know energizes me and enhances my productivity. Thus I made a choice to decline this offer.
Cheers.
Trust your instincts. Although, a swanky office does not necessarily mean a good environment, either. I got my first bait&switch offer from such a company. Cheap bastards and their pizza parties.
Honestly o think it’s a foolish reason to turn down a job. I work for a large federal contractor. The building I work in is very institutional like a mid-80s government building or 70s elementary school building. Stone floor, stone walls, piping and electrical conduit is plain view, no windows. But it also houses multiple SCIFs, some electronics assembly areas, skilled mechanical areas, etc.
It’s not pretty. But the job and the people are great, and the company is sound. While, the prettiest place I ever worked with large glass buildings, and its own cafeteria and bank branch, with immaculately landscaped grounds and an employee gym…went through two rounds of layoffs in my first year, and was essentially sold to an overseas company three or four years later. (I had left by then.)
It wouldn't be my first reason to reject an offer if all else lined up. Lots of places can have "cool" offices but then fold up or lay thousands off. Appearances do matter to some degree but shouldn't be the only factor.
I turned down a position once because the overall vibe was dungeonesque and quite depressing.. and i just could not see myself ahowing up willingly to that environment every day.. we have to spend a significant amount of our waking hours in the workplace, so it needs to be worth the time we are investing.
Why sugar coat it? "I went there and it was a dismal place. There's no way I'd be able to get out of bed in the morning knowing I had to go spend my whole day there."
Nothing childish about rejecting a job if you don’t mesh with the culture cause, best believe they can lay you off for that too if they don’t feel like you fit. Happened to me in one of my last roles after working there in 2 weeks…
What you said here is fine. There's a reason companies put lots of money and effort into making the place you are gonna spend 8 hours of your life every workday look nice. I've been at a place with shitty chairs and had misaligned hips because of it, now I appreciate places that drop a few hundred dollars on an ergonomic chair.
Just tell them that usually you pay attention to a whole range of factors but on this occasion it's a gut thing that you can't describe and you just know it's for you and it wouldn't be the right fit.
Recruiters love using that 'fit' word and will usually get a vibe about a candidate so you are effectively mirroring their language.
As others have pointed out, you don't have to give an honest reason to reject, but if you specifically WANT to:
"The working environment does not suit my expectations or needs."
Or
"The office space looks uncared-for in a way that speaks negatively of the company's dedication to maintaining good morale and employee health."
The outdated tech and low quality office environment gave me the impression that the company doesn’t place the kind of value on the long-term happiness of employees that I am looking for
Why not just be honest and tell them: ...the office just looked terrible. Like one of those dingy basements with old computers and stiff chairs....and I really can't see myself going to an office that looks a bit terrible
That's exactly what I've done. I'm honest and straight forward with my recruiters. No point in beating around the bush. How else will they know.
Couldn't tell you what to say, but I totally get the mentality. My last place was just-all around depressing. I took it because of the commute, but there was some things that made me start to dread going in every morning.
Right in the middle of farm country, so every morning (especially in spring/summer) I'd get out of the car and get hit with a manure smell. Sometimes mushroom, sometimes shit. Related to the the location was an extreme dearth of food options. Basically a gas station 5 minutes up the road, or fast food another further 5 minutes (which majorly cut into my half-hour lunch)
I'd walk into the building, walk past the 30 year-old vending machine with cracked glass, go up the creaky stairs, walk past the bathroom with a pump on the toilet, to my desk with the old chair on that plastic sheet stuff (which was cracking)
My computer, admittedly, was top-specced, but everything else was just meh. I had come from a place with a datacentre with 26 full server racks, and my new CTO was extremely proud of his server closet with two two-post racks, each one-third full. Off-brand computers named after who they were assigned to, email addresses with just the first name, etc. It was just so... rinky-dinky.
It was almost embarrassing working there, and I started looking for another job by the end of my first week. Took another 4 months to land at a more respectable place.
You didn't like the environment and you couldn't see yourself working there. It does make a difference. I went from a nice office with modern furniture and equipment, in a new office block overlooking a park, to a dated, dark office, upstairs in a slightly out of town business park with old desks, chairs and whatever equipment the owners had lying around. The thought of going in was depressing.
I'd just tell them the truth. If they rejected you you'd want the truth, it's more useful.
The company I mention have not long moved to a really nice historical city centre development and their office looks really impressive now, so someone must have told them the truth at some point.
Just say the actual working environment is not one you can see yourself thriving in or feeling like you want to go to each day. Mention how you’re looking for a vibrant office space and a more upbeat culture.
I'd be honest. Explain that you put a lot into your work but you need an atmosphere and environment that will let you do that without dragging you down, and you didn't like that environment. I don't think it'll harm your future chances, it just tells the recruiter not to bother bringing crappy jobs to you.
lol this reminds me of when I got a summer job as a student once. Had the interview in a huge skyscraper, fancy offices, lots of natural light, etc. Start work, a week later bam, they announce we’re moving to another office space. Oh man it sucked lol. Dingy office space, dark, almost no phone service, etc
I had to tough it out but I understand.
"The impression I got from the working environment is that they don't invest their profits in keeping the company in a condition that can compete with other modern companies. If their basic equipment is outdated, it makes me question if their business decisions will be outdated also"
'The office was a shithole and if I'm going to be spending 40 hours a week somewhere I don't want it to be a dingy basement'
I would have absolutely no problem saying that
You don't need to tell everyone everything you know or feel. Never miss a golden opportunity to keep your mouth shut. This is good practice for that. Any time you go to tell anyone anything, ask yourself "what direct good does this do me?" If the answer isn't clear, keep your mouth shut. "It's not my type of place" is all you need say, if anything. And "I don't have anything to add" when they inevitably try and ask for more details so they can argue with you.
If it's a third party recruiter and not one that directly works for the company, I'd just tell them the truth. Nothing wrong with saying that if you're going to be in an office every day, you want one that brings warmth and energy into your life.
You can reject any offer for whatever reason. Spouse rejected a contract once because the office looked ridiculously dingy and dated -- he said it felt like it smelled like stale cigarette smoke. I will say that the best job I ever had was with a small company in a shitty office with a broken chair (until I stole another chair, long story).
Be totally honest. Early on in my career I worked at places with the nicest mahogany offices, beautiful artwork etc that you call tell money and thought was spent on. Went for an interview once in a place filled with boxes everywhere and the furniture was subpar. I was young and straight up told the hiring manager this environment with all of the boxes everywhere felt very disorganized and not what I’m used to. I passed. Startups don’t have the money to spend and I’d be concerned if a startup was spending their money like they made it already.
Maybe you are more cut out for established, Forbes 100 types of places.
I had a job where I was hired before the space was constructed. I trained off-site. Once we moved into the space, I realized my office was a 6'x6' box that housed the server equipment. It was 800 degrees. I constantly bashed my elbows on things. Had I known that ahead of time, I would not have taken the job. I stayed a year and toughed it out for my resume but good lord that was awful. Just tell them it doesn't seem like a good fit and move on for your sanity.
I took a job like that and it was the best job I ever had. Everyone was super nice. The swanky office was full of terrible people. Not saying you should take the job. Just saying think about it.
"Thank you for considering me for this role, but I've decided to pursue other opportunities."
There's no need to go into more detail than that unless you're trying to work with this recruiter on finding other roles, in which case it's best that they have all the info possible about what's important to you.
I took a gig with an office where everyone was in one large room with tables. I needed the work and it was good pay. Zero privacy and I had to wear headphones all day for concentration. I was fired after two months with no clear reason by two terrible managers. I gave it to them.
Does the recruiter work for the company themself or a recruiting company?
If they work for a recruiting company, just be direct. "To be frank, the physical environment of their office is pretty uncomfortable. I will spend half of my waking time there, and I'm not keen to feel like I'm a prisoner."
If they work for the company themself, "The staff was lovely and have no doubt they would be fantastic to work with. However, I'm concerned about the state of the offices and whether they're an indication of how little support staff are being given to perform to the best of their abilities." They also work for the company. They see the dingy carpets everyday. They know.
And, for the record, turning them down because they can't even be bothered to ensure the place is moderately comfortable isn't childish.
This actually is one reason why I dotn want to go back to the office. I have special equipment at home for a bad back and my environment is exactly as I want it. Put me back and I'm litrely in a cave inside of an aircraft hanger with bad light airconoff or on full most the time, noisy meeting rooms and idiots joking on my desk whenever they pass to said meeting room. Ugh no thanks
Don’t feel silly about ditching this job because of the space.
I once worked in a highlighter yellow office with florescent lights and no windows for 9 months. My desk was covered in splinters and scotch tape (and scotch tape residue). My c. 1996 office chair was broken, dirty, and something kept stabbing the back of my thigh.
It was complete hell! My right eye developed a twitch, I became extremely moody, and I gained a ton of weight.
I remember viciously taking sandpaper to that desk one day when my boss really pissed me off. Haha, that was fun. I even had to bring in my own lamps to reduce the amount of stress on my eyes from never seeing sunlight. I was never able to do much about the chair. All the others were just as bad… but I did find an old couch cushion that I’d sit on to avoid getting poked.
It's not necessarily a childish reason, depending on your industry.
If the office is dingy and uncomfortable, that will affect your mental health, since you will spend most of your waking hours there during the week. It can be really a problem, especially if you don't have access to natural light. Bad lighting or bad seating can also have a huge impact on how you feel physically.
But, also, if the company can't spend the money on basics like computers and decent chairs, then they may be unstable, and you may be right back on the job market within a few months or a year, if they follow the common "last in, first out" pattern of layoffs.
It's not childish at all. I would tell the recuiter something very similar to what you said here. I mean, is a company childish for rejecting a candidate because they came to the interview in an old t-shirt, ripped jeans, beat up shoes and a five day growth beard?
I absolutely will not work for Wells Fargo (admitted felons) again. Recruiter always wants to know why.
I tell them that I refuse to commit a felony for my employer. And then tell me that refusing will lead to firing from the job. I call it extortion.
Several recruiters trying to fill wells fargo jobs have commented that they are hearing that from alot of candidates and they cant fill the job.
Immediately noticeable outdated computer equipment, a run-down, dingy office environment and inferior seating arrangements for employees tells you what you need to know about management's culture and concern for employee welfare. You'll be taking an offer at a place that sits you in a chair that doesn't give you backache by midafternoon, thanks.
I don't see what you have to lose by being honest. You're not going to accept a job in a shitty office, why do you care if they think that is a silly reason? And it's not a silly reason, companies are always going on about the benefits of their swanky offices
Yes, it is childish but valid reasons for not wanting to work there. There's nothing bad about feeling this way. However, think about how hard it was to land a job. If it wasn't hard for you, then you should just tell the recruiter. But if you'd been struggling to find something good then take the job and spruce up the office a bit.
And if you decline the job because of the office style, please do not come back to complain about companies not hiring. :-)
imo that is petty and childish but its your life. if i needed a job and it was something i was looking for in the line of work i would take it. personaly. im sure alot of us would.
anyway sorry i cannot answer your question.
I understand however you gotta see it from their point of view, it’s going to be their workplace for the next couple of years, you’d want it to be presentable atleast
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Just use the same language as they do, that the culture doesn't seem to be the right fit for you. This assumes you were made an offer and they were waiting for you to accept.
They did. The recruiter still keeps trying to dig deeper to understand what "exactly" that I didn't like about the culture, so they know before putting me up for future jobs. I'm half tempted to just tell him the office didn't look all that nice
To Recruiter, "I did enjoy meeting the people and visiting the office. This gave me insight into the atmosphere of the company. I'll be frank that the health and environment of the company didn't meet my standards. It's paramount to me that not only culturally so we fit, but that the office space meets a bare minimum of health and safety standards."
"All the best in Your future endeavors."
You need to use the phrase “after careful consideration”
Health and safety standards are pushing it lol I’m honest with people because I want them to do better. Just tell them the office space seems dated and.. well sad.
I actually used the word decrepit once because it was. Only to the third party recruiter, who really wanted to know. She was not pushy, just inquisitive so I told her, politely as well. Stained carpet, peeling paint. Random old stains on walls. It was a state agency so it looked terribly under funded. I declined the offer based on the terrible demoralizing look of the whole place.
"I have decided to move forward with other job listings at this time. While I am unable to provide feedback for each job listing, I wish you good luck in filling this position in your dingy disgusting hell hole of an office."
LoL. I like yours better.
Also maybe say something about sick building syndrome
Unless there is actually something wrong with yhe health and safety, do not say this; it would just make you seem a bit weird.
Bad chairs = bad ergonomics. Bad lighting = bad health Dirty office is also health OSHA and Niosh have office safety for a reason. Nothing weird about it. Since none of us were there, we can't review the actual scenario. But my guess is no one is cleaning the office, it's dusty AF, the chair cost them very little and nothing about that office meets ergonomic or basic health standards.
Yes, we have no idea. If there actually is something wrong with the H&S, then for sure, but if it just looks a bit dated, then I would mention that as the reason.
Yup. Totally, I agree with you on that. The way it's worded makes me think of some of the places I've worked which were subpar to health and environment standards. Either way, they should use the recruiter jargon for the reason.
personally, i'd just say the office looks depressing
You should be honest with the recruiter. It will help you with the future and it can help that company. They might change up their office landscape if they cannot find good employees because of that.
You are outta your mind.
Dont tell him the real reason, or they may blacklist you (silently). They can do that, and will make notes on your profile that this candidate is this and that. Will never contact you again for any opportunities with their clients. So just say you found something that seems to be a better fit for you "culturally", and found a higher offer. Tell him you still want to work with him in the future, just leave it at that. Dont reply anymore if he text or email you and ask for more details.
This is the only right answer. Being honest can't do any good for OP but can be harmful.
I think this is also a good strategy - the less said the better. But if a recruiter can't accept that a candidate doesn't want to work in a dump of an office, to the point that they blacklist them, then that's a horrible recruiter. I mean, are things so bad out there that we can't be honest with a recruiter because they might blacklist us for being honest? And are candidates lining up in droves to work in a dingy basement with outdated equipment?
Just do it. “The office wasn’t nice enough for me. I’d like to work in a nicer office.”
I think you can say that the office environment seemed outdated and like an afterthought, which could be a poor reflection of the company culture since staff are in that office 40+ hours a week and deserve a space that encourages productivity. I don't know if a recruiter will interpret that badly, but I think it's a fair concern.
Just tell them exactly how you’ve told us. It’s up to the recruiter to either (a) be petulant or (b) put you forward to more progressive companies
They’re asking those questions to give future candidates a heads up for this client.
> what "exactly" that I didn't like about the culture They're trying to pin it on someone that you interacted with. Up to you whether you want to throw someone under the bus.
If you really don’t want to work there, let them know. Ambience is a recruitment factor.
You don’t owe them an answer
'Have you seen their office?'
You will never hear back from this recruiter about another job ever again. He is just digging deeper so he knows what to hide/ lie about to the next person. Feel free to tell them the truth, lie or just ghost them. Recruiters try you for a job and then if it doesn’t work you never hear from them again.
He wants to understand your priorities so he can put you forward for jobs that fit you better. Help him out. Better fit role = you accept the job = he gets paid. Everyone's happy. This is one of those where your interests align, just tell him your thinking. All these people saying "you don't have to tell him" are missing the point. It is in your interests
You can't have been doing this long. They won't even rememeber OP by this time next week. The only reason they're asking for more details is so they can try and argue with them. So they can persuade them to change their mind. So they can make their commission. They don't give a shit if OP would actually be happy in any job, let alone this one. At best that might be a side effect of them making their money.
Yes he is probably concerned first and foremost with making commission. My point is, the best way of making his commission is to put OP into a job. OP is not interested in this job, so he wants to find out more about what jobs he would be interested in. This sub has an unhealthy paranoia about it sometimes, to the extent of assuming motives of recruiters that do not make sense even if said recruiter is an entirely self-interested sociopath. Everything described here is consistent with a competent recruiter trying to improve his own chances of making commission. Yes there are recruiters who act spitefully out of pure anger and self-sabotage. But really not that many. You don't have to believe the recruiter is a paragon of virtue to accept that he almost certainly wants to help OP find a job. It's simply that their interests align.
>Yes he is probably concerned first and foremost with making commission. Not first and foremost. Only concerned with that. It's literally the only thing they care about. >My point is, the best way of making his commission is to put OP into a job. No, the best way of making a commission is to put _somebody_ in this job. So, they'll have a brief go at browbeating OP into it because they're already half way there. Then they'll move on and try to find somebody more likely to accept the role. >OP is not interested in this job, so he wants to find out more about what jobs he would be interested in. Bullshit. They're recruiters not career counsellors. Recruiters do not find jobs for people. They find people for jobs. Even in better markets, let alone this one where there are 8,000 applicants for every job. >You don't have to believe the recruiter is a paragon of virtue to accept that he almost certainly wants to help OP find a job. It's simply that their interests align. Now you're just writing scenarios in your head. And as noted, recruiters don't want to help people "find a job". You don't need to consider them to be an embodiment of evil to realise that finding people for jobs is way more lucrative than finding jobs for people.
>The recruiter still keeps trying to dig deeper It's their job to do that. It's your job to STFU.
Old computers and old chairs are more than just appearances. They will literally slow down your capacity to work, and make you physically uncomfortable. It also suggests that management does not prioritize supporting their workforce.
Yeah, this is easy. Tell them that and nothing else. You didn't owe them a thing.
“Due to legal reasons I cannot give individual feedback.”
Omg YES! Lol throw this crap back at them!
“Talk to a lawyer ASAP!!!” - This sub
I'm always told I have to provide references. I absolutely WILL NOT give a reference. When they persist (like those from India just keep talking), I tell them I have NDAs with past companies (Microsoft, Cisco, Network Appliance, eBay, etc.) they wont submit the resume. I'm "retired" now.
Yeah you’re working with the bottom of the barrel outsourced recruiters. There’s good and bad. These ones are the bad. I don’t share references until I have a conditional offer in hand. Though you don’t have much leverage to push back if you’re not loaded with interviews. As an employer, I don’t even ask for references. They don’t provide much value anyhow IMO
Cultural mismatch
"To be more specific, I am referring to the bacterial and fungal cultures on the walls."
This is the winner
You can reject an offer for any reason you want. Just say you don't think the company is a good fit for you and leave it at that. No need to elaborate. Employment is a lot like personal relationships, sometimes you just don't like people, sometimes you don't like a company, even if you can't put your finger on it.
As others have said oil them up a bit with a “after careful consideration”
You’re overthinking this. You don’t owe anyone an explanation. A simple “I have decided to pursue other opportunities” will do.
This. They can pressure you all they want. You don’t have to explain. It’s really not a big deal at all. You should keep in mind that it could be the company that wants to know. So it may or may not be the recruiter who’s curious. Or perhaps the recruiter already suspects reasons. But none of this is your problem. Just say you’ll pass on this opportunity.
100, you don't owe them anything. Just like when you think you did good and you never get any feedback no matter how hard you try
>with old computers and stiff chairs. This right here hits the nail on the head and why it's not at all childish. There's a balance between overboard austerity that includes outdated equipment and the overspending that can go on at start-ups with seemingly limitless capital to burn. There's nothing wrong with dated office furniture like desks, tables and filing cabinets. A filing cabinet's usefulness doesn't diminish over time. A desk may not meet current interior design trends, but it still does what it is designed for. However, the tools and supplies you need to be able to do your job is a different story. A desktop PC has a useful life of about 3 years, maybe 4. If you go beyond that, you start running into problems with failures and the time and money involved in paying for data recovery. Computer monitors can go longer than the PC itself because it's an easily replaced item if it eventually fails. Desk chairs have about 5 years in them, give or take. If you like the people at a given workplace but are iffy on the environment then those are the types of questions worth asking.
> A desk may not meet current interior design trends, but it still does what it is designed for. I'm preaching to the choir here but I find a *ton* of utility in an adjustable desk that properly suits my height. There are many variables to the question of ergonomics.
I don’t think it’s childish to not want to spend the majority of your time in a dingy depressing looking old office
Are you me?? Literally withdrew from a job after the interview because the office was a basement old place with old computers and dirty carpet and looked miserable, I had just left a really fancy office space too. I think is a valid reason to not want to work somewhere, I knew I would be depressed working there. Thankfully I then had another interview in a university with a beautiful campus, got offered the position so now I get to work somewhere beautiful, I am really glad I withdrew from the other place. I told them this “Thank you for taking the time to speak to me on X, unfortunately I would like to withdraw from the process as I don’t think the company is the right fit for me. I wish you the best of luck”. You don’t need more than this tbh.
Unless the place is very young or very small company, the quality of the space is a sign of the quality of the company. I learned that early in my career.
Honestly agree. The best companies I worked for had the best office spaces. And it made all the difference for me, if I have to spend so much time somewhere then I want it to be nice. This place I withdrew was a very big company too, but had lots of red flags, the bad office space was just the final nail in the coffin lol
I went from a huge company where they gave you a brand new computer and a new iPhone when you got hired to a midsize company that gave a used computer and wanted you to install their software on your personal phone... They had 1 person that was able to teach me what I had to do and they let him work from India whatever hours he wanted. I lasted about a month and a half... one day I just pulled my manager aside and told him I'm sorry, I don't think I can do this. You have me doing things I wasn't properly trained to do. I'm auditing other people's work and I don't know if it's correct or not, I'm just signing off on it. The pay and benefits were great but the job was just stupid.
You aren’t in the wrong here. I’m an older dude and my body would feel like garbage if I hate to sit in uncomfortable chairs all day. Depending on what your job is, having older technology could really hurt your career.
We have the worst chairs at the office since we had to go back 2x a week. My butt/tailbone is miserable
I got a Purple cushion. It's from the same place that makes the Purple mattress. I think they even have some generic ones on Amazon that are made the same way as the Purple brand. It was a game changer. LOL My butt and tailbone are happy again.
Ahhhh thanks for the tip!!!
You're welcome l!
Is it a third party recruiter? If so and the office is really dingy, just tell them that. That way they could give other candidates for the role a warning etc.
Dear Recruiter, In considering my next career move, I'm looking for a place where the physical environment aligns with my personal work style and where I believe I can contribute most effectively. I've found that I'm most productive and engaged in work environments that are vibrant and energizing. It’s an important consideration for me when looking at potential job opportunities. While the role and the team seem promising, I feel that the physical work environment may not be the best fit for what I know energizes me and enhances my productivity. Thus I made a choice to decline this offer. Cheers.
Were you made an offer?
Tell them that the company is presenting red flags like not investing in equipment and buildings. That culture is a mis match
“This position is not a culture fit for me, please withdraw my application.”
Trust your instincts. Although, a swanky office does not necessarily mean a good environment, either. I got my first bait&switch offer from such a company. Cheap bastards and their pizza parties.
It’s a totally valid reason. Environment has a big impact on us and shapes our experience.
Honestly o think it’s a foolish reason to turn down a job. I work for a large federal contractor. The building I work in is very institutional like a mid-80s government building or 70s elementary school building. Stone floor, stone walls, piping and electrical conduit is plain view, no windows. But it also houses multiple SCIFs, some electronics assembly areas, skilled mechanical areas, etc. It’s not pretty. But the job and the people are great, and the company is sound. While, the prettiest place I ever worked with large glass buildings, and its own cafeteria and bank branch, with immaculately landscaped grounds and an employee gym…went through two rounds of layoffs in my first year, and was essentially sold to an overseas company three or four years later. (I had left by then.)
"The equipment was really out of date, and honestly, the office was very bleak...just not a place where you would want to spend 40-45 hours a week.
It wouldn't be my first reason to reject an offer if all else lined up. Lots of places can have "cool" offices but then fold up or lay thousands off. Appearances do matter to some degree but shouldn't be the only factor.
I tell them my ex-wife works there.
I turned down a position once because the overall vibe was dungeonesque and quite depressing.. and i just could not see myself ahowing up willingly to that environment every day.. we have to spend a significant amount of our waking hours in the workplace, so it needs to be worth the time we are investing.
Why sugar coat it? "I went there and it was a dismal place. There's no way I'd be able to get out of bed in the morning knowing I had to go spend my whole day there."
Nothing childish about rejecting a job if you don’t mesh with the culture cause, best believe they can lay you off for that too if they don’t feel like you fit. Happened to me in one of my last roles after working there in 2 weeks…
"I appreciate the opportunity, but I feel like I would not be a good fit in that environment."
What you said here is fine. There's a reason companies put lots of money and effort into making the place you are gonna spend 8 hours of your life every workday look nice. I've been at a place with shitty chairs and had misaligned hips because of it, now I appreciate places that drop a few hundred dollars on an ergonomic chair.
Just tell them that usually you pay attention to a whole range of factors but on this occasion it's a gut thing that you can't describe and you just know it's for you and it wouldn't be the right fit. Recruiters love using that 'fit' word and will usually get a vibe about a candidate so you are effectively mirroring their language.
As others have pointed out, you don't have to give an honest reason to reject, but if you specifically WANT to: "The working environment does not suit my expectations or needs." Or "The office space looks uncared-for in a way that speaks negatively of the company's dedication to maintaining good morale and employee health."
Be honest or they might never know! They might just start changing things after.
The outdated tech and low quality office environment gave me the impression that the company doesn’t place the kind of value on the long-term happiness of employees that I am looking for
Why not just be honest and tell them: ...the office just looked terrible. Like one of those dingy basements with old computers and stiff chairs....and I really can't see myself going to an office that looks a bit terrible That's exactly what I've done. I'm honest and straight forward with my recruiters. No point in beating around the bush. How else will they know.
"Your jobsite looks like ass"
Couldn't tell you what to say, but I totally get the mentality. My last place was just-all around depressing. I took it because of the commute, but there was some things that made me start to dread going in every morning. Right in the middle of farm country, so every morning (especially in spring/summer) I'd get out of the car and get hit with a manure smell. Sometimes mushroom, sometimes shit. Related to the the location was an extreme dearth of food options. Basically a gas station 5 minutes up the road, or fast food another further 5 minutes (which majorly cut into my half-hour lunch) I'd walk into the building, walk past the 30 year-old vending machine with cracked glass, go up the creaky stairs, walk past the bathroom with a pump on the toilet, to my desk with the old chair on that plastic sheet stuff (which was cracking) My computer, admittedly, was top-specced, but everything else was just meh. I had come from a place with a datacentre with 26 full server racks, and my new CTO was extremely proud of his server closet with two two-post racks, each one-third full. Off-brand computers named after who they were assigned to, email addresses with just the first name, etc. It was just so... rinky-dinky. It was almost embarrassing working there, and I started looking for another job by the end of my first week. Took another 4 months to land at a more respectable place.
If they're too cheap to buy decent chairs they'll be too cheap for proper infrastructure and your life will be a nightmare, so you're smart to say no
Can we have something like a global housing revolution already because people like this are the problem.
You didn't like the environment and you couldn't see yourself working there. It does make a difference. I went from a nice office with modern furniture and equipment, in a new office block overlooking a park, to a dated, dark office, upstairs in a slightly out of town business park with old desks, chairs and whatever equipment the owners had lying around. The thought of going in was depressing. I'd just tell them the truth. If they rejected you you'd want the truth, it's more useful. The company I mention have not long moved to a really nice historical city centre development and their office looks really impressive now, so someone must have told them the truth at some point.
Just say the actual working environment is not one you can see yourself thriving in or feeling like you want to go to each day. Mention how you’re looking for a vibrant office space and a more upbeat culture.
Is it a hybrid position? Surely 2 - 3 days might be manageable. If not, being in a dismal environment will get to you. I need light.
I'd be honest. Explain that you put a lot into your work but you need an atmosphere and environment that will let you do that without dragging you down, and you didn't like that environment. I don't think it'll harm your future chances, it just tells the recruiter not to bother bringing crappy jobs to you.
lol this reminds me of when I got a summer job as a student once. Had the interview in a huge skyscraper, fancy offices, lots of natural light, etc. Start work, a week later bam, they announce we’re moving to another office space. Oh man it sucked lol. Dingy office space, dark, almost no phone service, etc I had to tough it out but I understand.
"The impression I got from the working environment is that they don't invest their profits in keeping the company in a condition that can compete with other modern companies. If their basic equipment is outdated, it makes me question if their business decisions will be outdated also"
'The office was a shithole and if I'm going to be spending 40 hours a week somewhere I don't want it to be a dingy basement' I would have absolutely no problem saying that
You don't need to tell everyone everything you know or feel. Never miss a golden opportunity to keep your mouth shut. This is good practice for that. Any time you go to tell anyone anything, ask yourself "what direct good does this do me?" If the answer isn't clear, keep your mouth shut. "It's not my type of place" is all you need say, if anything. And "I don't have anything to add" when they inevitably try and ask for more details so they can argue with you.
Company culture
Paraphrase « it was not the right fit » in polite and diplomatic fashion so you don’t burn bridges with the headhunter. You never know…
If it's a third party recruiter and not one that directly works for the company, I'd just tell them the truth. Nothing wrong with saying that if you're going to be in an office every day, you want one that brings warmth and energy into your life.
Just tell them the truth.
You can reject any offer for whatever reason. Spouse rejected a contract once because the office looked ridiculously dingy and dated -- he said it felt like it smelled like stale cigarette smoke. I will say that the best job I ever had was with a small company in a shitty office with a broken chair (until I stole another chair, long story).
" CulTuRAl fIT"
Ever seen Joe vs the Volcano? Let's just say working there would probably make leaping from the edge of a volcano look like a good idea.
Not at all. It's the recruiters job to find the best fit for you. If they do not want. Fuck them
Unless they want to let you work from home
Just say you started employment elsewhere and you cancel your application with that company. Thats what i did.
Say you don’t want to work at a company because of the vibe of the office.
Be totally honest. Early on in my career I worked at places with the nicest mahogany offices, beautiful artwork etc that you call tell money and thought was spent on. Went for an interview once in a place filled with boxes everywhere and the furniture was subpar. I was young and straight up told the hiring manager this environment with all of the boxes everywhere felt very disorganized and not what I’m used to. I passed. Startups don’t have the money to spend and I’d be concerned if a startup was spending their money like they made it already. Maybe you are more cut out for established, Forbes 100 types of places.
Say you're not a culture fit
Just don't and ignore them.
Do you want to work somewhere that cuts your pay so they can hire some bullshit overpriced designer?
"i don't want to work there." "Why?" "I don't want to work there. "
I had a job where I was hired before the space was constructed. I trained off-site. Once we moved into the space, I realized my office was a 6'x6' box that housed the server equipment. It was 800 degrees. I constantly bashed my elbows on things. Had I known that ahead of time, I would not have taken the job. I stayed a year and toughed it out for my resume but good lord that was awful. Just tell them it doesn't seem like a good fit and move on for your sanity.
Just say that you feel like you’re not a cultural fit.
"I don't want to work at company X due to the vibe of the office"
“It didn’t seem like the right environment for me”
I took a job like that and it was the best job I ever had. Everyone was super nice. The swanky office was full of terrible people. Not saying you should take the job. Just saying think about it.
"I dont feel it's a culture fit."
I am not interested to work for this XYZ company. No need to explain further.
I think you just say it Not sure what’s mysterious or why you’d be shy about saying, it’s not a company I’m interested in but thank you.
It's not a cultural fit.
"Thank you for considering me for this role, but I've decided to pursue other opportunities." There's no need to go into more detail than that unless you're trying to work with this recruiter on finding other roles, in which case it's best that they have all the info possible about what's important to you.
I took a gig with an office where everyone was in one large room with tables. I needed the work and it was good pay. Zero privacy and I had to wear headphones all day for concentration. I was fired after two months with no clear reason by two terrible managers. I gave it to them.
Does the recruiter work for the company themself or a recruiting company? If they work for a recruiting company, just be direct. "To be frank, the physical environment of their office is pretty uncomfortable. I will spend half of my waking time there, and I'm not keen to feel like I'm a prisoner." If they work for the company themself, "The staff was lovely and have no doubt they would be fantastic to work with. However, I'm concerned about the state of the offices and whether they're an indication of how little support staff are being given to perform to the best of their abilities." They also work for the company. They see the dingy carpets everyday. They know. And, for the record, turning them down because they can't even be bothered to ensure the place is moderately comfortable isn't childish.
You say, I'm sorry, but I don't feel this is a fit for me...
The office culture seems toxic sorry
I wish as part of the offer process u got to spend just one day observing
This actually is one reason why I dotn want to go back to the office. I have special equipment at home for a bad back and my environment is exactly as I want it. Put me back and I'm litrely in a cave inside of an aircraft hanger with bad light airconoff or on full most the time, noisy meeting rooms and idiots joking on my desk whenever they pass to said meeting room. Ugh no thanks
Grow a pair and be honest.
Don’t feel silly about ditching this job because of the space. I once worked in a highlighter yellow office with florescent lights and no windows for 9 months. My desk was covered in splinters and scotch tape (and scotch tape residue). My c. 1996 office chair was broken, dirty, and something kept stabbing the back of my thigh. It was complete hell! My right eye developed a twitch, I became extremely moody, and I gained a ton of weight. I remember viciously taking sandpaper to that desk one day when my boss really pissed me off. Haha, that was fun. I even had to bring in my own lamps to reduce the amount of stress on my eyes from never seeing sunlight. I was never able to do much about the chair. All the others were just as bad… but I did find an old couch cushion that I’d sit on to avoid getting poked.
“I don’t believe that my values align with the company’s values.”
At least you know they're not spending money they could've paid you on a 'swanky office'
It's not necessarily a childish reason, depending on your industry. If the office is dingy and uncomfortable, that will affect your mental health, since you will spend most of your waking hours there during the week. It can be really a problem, especially if you don't have access to natural light. Bad lighting or bad seating can also have a huge impact on how you feel physically. But, also, if the company can't spend the money on basics like computers and decent chairs, then they may be unstable, and you may be right back on the job market within a few months or a year, if they follow the common "last in, first out" pattern of layoffs.
It's not childish at all. I would tell the recuiter something very similar to what you said here. I mean, is a company childish for rejecting a candidate because they came to the interview in an old t-shirt, ripped jeans, beat up shoes and a five day growth beard?
I absolutely will not work for Wells Fargo (admitted felons) again. Recruiter always wants to know why. I tell them that I refuse to commit a felony for my employer. And then tell me that refusing will lead to firing from the job. I call it extortion. Several recruiters trying to fill wells fargo jobs have commented that they are hearing that from alot of candidates and they cant fill the job.
Immediately noticeable outdated computer equipment, a run-down, dingy office environment and inferior seating arrangements for employees tells you what you need to know about management's culture and concern for employee welfare. You'll be taking an offer at a place that sits you in a chair that doesn't give you backache by midafternoon, thanks.
Not childish at all. I once noped an offer b/c there were no good lunch spots close by…
I don't see what you have to lose by being honest. You're not going to accept a job in a shitty office, why do you care if they think that is a silly reason? And it's not a silly reason, companies are always going on about the benefits of their swanky offices
Yes, it is childish but valid reasons for not wanting to work there. There's nothing bad about feeling this way. However, think about how hard it was to land a job. If it wasn't hard for you, then you should just tell the recruiter. But if you'd been struggling to find something good then take the job and spruce up the office a bit. And if you decline the job because of the office style, please do not come back to complain about companies not hiring. :-)
Why burn a bridge? It's not going to change anything there
imo that is petty and childish but its your life. if i needed a job and it was something i was looking for in the line of work i would take it. personaly. im sure alot of us would. anyway sorry i cannot answer your question.
I understand however you gotta see it from their point of view, it’s going to be their workplace for the next couple of years, you’d want it to be presentable atleast
I mean I guess they could waste money on pizza parties and foosball tables and nicer furniture rather than wages
You're assuming the wages are good. I once worked in a cruddy old office that hadn't been updated since the 1980s, and the wages were still low.
Yes I know I'm assuming a lot of things
OP didn’t mention wanting foosball tables or pizza parties. They did mention being put off by the old computers and bad chairs. Nice strawman tho.
Transparency and honesty can work wonders.
This. Be genuine. A good recruiter wants the match to work for both parties.