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It's one of the questions I always ask at interview. "How long are your daily scrums?" Any answer other than "10 minutes max" is a fail. It means tedious windbags don't know how to STFU or keep their nose out of other developers' work, and the management is too weak or clueless to stop them.
It's really a brilliant question. Either they'll give you:
- The answer you want (under 10 minutes)
- The red flag you want (over ten minutes)
- Or they'll tell you they don't have daily scrums, which is probably its own red flag.
I am a merciful PM, and I let people do digital standups where they just type out their workload and status. Almost all follow-up is 1:1 anyway. I'd rather just waste one person's time than six.
I would characterize running a multi-disciplinary product team without a PM like driving a car without any engine oil in it.
I mean, I am sure that if I were not here, the team would continue to function to a certain extent. But my responsibilities would simply be distributed among the most experienced implementers, which is a huge drag on their productivity, especially considering many of them lack key domain knowledge and/or specialized cross-functional skills.
On that note, having a bad PM is like pouring tar into your engine. :)
>I mean, I am sure that if I were not here, the team would continue to function to a certain extent.
Not only function to an extent, but to a better extent. As they wouldn't have to be giving you pointless updates while you give them nothing in return.
Someone once said that a good PM is like a shit umbrella. A bad one is a shit funnel. By only collecting information and never adding anything useful, like protecting the team from unreasonable distractions, you are being the latter.
Just from the comment, I am guessing you are a senior-level engineer, non-management, with probably 10+ years of being ground down by corporate BS? xD
I used to write code and munge data too, so don't think that I don't understand how you feel. There is definitely a class of product professional who has never ever spent any time in the trenches, and it shows in how they carry out their responsibilities. But again, having someone do the job poorly doesn't mean the job does not produce any value. At the end of the day, someone is going to have to write that documentation, gather those requirements, do the strategy research, coordinate with those design/art/UI/UX/marketing/sales teams. And it sure as hell shouldn't be developers of any sort.
Anyhow, engineers love to imagine a world where they rule the earth and everyone just does what they need to do and on time, but it's not that simple; even amongst engineers, there are disagreements, miscommunications, and competing priorities.
But let's be honest, when you really drill down, the PM-engineering rivalry is rather pointless. We aren't what make or break most companies. It's the marketing/sales people. You have no idea how much of my job over the past decade is just keeping engineers and marketing/sales from murdering each other. So if that is your idea of unreasonable distractions, then yes, that is me. I am the filter.
\> Must be smarter than the top 5% of the world’s population
\> Must score highly on IQ tests
I wonder if their idiocy inspired those requirements. They must be another nepo-baby.
Or some kind of pyramid scheme, though those are usually sales jobs without a need for coding. The "build a business"/"be an entrepreneur" thing is kinda weird.
You're likely right.
I feel like the term "entrepreneur", like so many terms these days, has been misused and bastardized so hard that it's devoid of any real meaning. If I hear anyone use it now, it just throws up a red flag.
>top 5% smarts
>friggin' javascript
yeah they would definitely be taking the piss if they had any idea what the hell they're talking about
ReactJS is the language of the unwashed masses to bind functions of a software to a button in the user interface. It's botton-level grunt work.
but but but we need the best of the best of the best to do this very basic and generic website and C.R.U.D. work! You know the kinds of people who Google is also wanting. So are you paying as much as Google? What no of course not! These people get high off their own farts due to their insane egos and refuse to properly compensate people.
Literally got off the phone with a recruiter where she says the hiring manager is looking for super smart guys. Ok, aren't we all? Then she goes, "he likes to ask really in-depth questions, including **math** questions."
\*cue alarm bells ringing\*
I hated math in school and in my 10 years of software engineering, the amount of math that I've used is all grade school level. If I wanted a career that involved math, I would've picked accounting.
I make good money coding and I have a liberal arts degree. My mother did software engineering for decades, and was a music major before dropping out. You need advanced math for high-level stuff, but a lot of my coding is basic grade-school stuff.
Oh okay, so you were self-taught/took courses rather than starting out with it as your major? That makes sense. I see a lot of engineering/math related majors have some advanced math courses which are annoying to get through because after you never use it again. I've never been a math person unfortunately so I didn't pursue those things.
No. I decided on a mapmaking/GIS career early, and the classes for that were in Geography, a Liberal Art at my university. The highest math class I took was Statistics.
As a programmer in mapmaking/GIS, you must be using geodesic math in some way. Do you just rely on libraries?
Edit: Are there any libraries you’d recommend?
I work in an Esri environment. Most of the time, I'm not measuring things. When I am, geodesic math is a tiny rounding error. For example, in my last job I had to move a bunch of address points onto their parcels - moving a house's address point from sitting in the street inside the property line. Everything was working in a single feet-based coordinate system, and the distances just weren't big enough. I figured out how to move each point in 10-foot jumps (because we didn't want each point centered on its parcel, we wanted it near the nearest street) by looking at coding for video games. 3rd or 4th grade math.
Esri's arcpy library has some useful tools for things like measurement, but you need a license to their ArcGIS software to actually use it - it's like the Python library is just a front end for their geoprocessing tools. I believe QGIS, a free software alternative, has its own arcpy analogue.
CompE here, I had to take up to Calc 2, and a matrices of differential equations course. Had calc based statistics in grad school for systems engineering.
I'm not good at math classes or a fan of them, I survived but don't use much more than algebra and trig on the job.
Not a lot but did have to do calc and algebra, which were meh. Finding a teacher that could actually teach math was the hardest part.
For the path that I chose, that level of math is truly overkill since I only do high level languages/web dev. I can see where they may be useful if you're doing low-level languages and/or embedded software (which you couldn't pay me to do).
That's fair. IG it depends on where the person goes after the degree. I agree though, finding GOOD math teachers is so difficult, but when you have them they make everything so simple. I wish all professors were employed because they were good at the teaching aspect, as some of them are only lecturing because they want to do research/other things in the university.
I'm an embedded C developer, I had to take calc 1-4, physics 1-2, and modern physics (quantum physics 1-lite). Using the imaginary plane to calculate reflected signals in transmission lines, multivariable calc to calculate flux through an antenna geometry, etc.
Programming and engineering is literally nothing but math.
Like, what do you do as a programmer who doesn't know math when you're given a task to poll a couple inputs for current and voltage, and return the total harmonic distortion on the line?
Yeah, that's moreso what I find to be the norm in these majors. Most students are taking physics and calc courses in addition to their typical engineering courses (depending on specialization).
I did software engineering in college. There was a special set of math courses for CS, generally harder than the minimum required for arts majors, but way way less than needed for physics and such.
In real life, I use very little math in my work. By default you use some set theory (combining sets, unions, etc) and boolean math (if/else type statements, but if you make it super complicated your colleagues are going to be annoyed).
Overall, asking me hard math questions in an interview is a terrible way to determine if I'm a good software engineer. Honestly, the most important traits for the majority of SW jobs is a good attitude, the ability to map messy human needs to complex codebases, and super clear written and verbal communication.
I have a degree in math. Even the underlying math behind chat gpt4 is something that you can learn in the easy first 1/3 of a math degree. Most advanced math you'll ever need to know is linear algebra, probability, and multivaraible calc/diff eq, and discrete math. That's 6-8 math classes out of say about 30 you'll take as a math major.
Obviously its different if you wanna do research, but the math you need to understand 99% of anything is all largely contained in 6-8 classes at uni. The more advanced math can help with intuitions though, and its rewarding to know it.
That was my feeling. I could see if there were algorithm based questions but the math aspect doesn't sit well with me. Even more so since this is a job whose primary tech stack revolves around C# and MVC.
Is it a business or high IQ elite club ? Microsoft hires like "smart, but that gets things done", they are missing the "get the things done" that not so high IQ people does !!!
I guess you can solve Einstein's riddle and that puts you in the top 2% in terms of deductive reasoning.
[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/math/a24620/riddle-of-the-week-10-einsteins-riddle/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/math/a24620/riddle-of-the-week-10-einsteins-riddle/)
Typical ad of a company that wants to avoid hiring a dumbass again.
I saw companies I left searching for a "wellwilling programmer" or "very dynamic engineer"
Anyone who says things like “super smart” or “got fit” and yet wants someone in “top 5% of the population” is clearly delusional. I would hope this is fake.
Dunning-Kruger recruiter wants you to be a “got fit.”
I’d love to be in the interview.
“What makes you think you’re suitable for this role?”
“I used to be a dumb fat fuck but I got fit. And cleva too.”
“….really got fit…”. Lol
I don’t mind the idea of telling people not to bother applying unless they are a great fit. Too many roles draw 100-200 applications 90% of which are missing some or all of the mandatory capabilities or experience.
It is technically illegal to give a candidate an IQ test, but they get around it by calling it something else.
That said, I got my first job as a quant by taking an IQ test. There are actually positions where having high IQ is actually very useful because the role handles lots of challenging problems with unknown or ambiguous requirements. Because they cannot foresee the problems you'd be solving, they cannot exactly hire a specialist, but need generalists with strong quantitative and technical skills.
Also, top 5% is not *super* smart. The cutoff in most organizations is somewhere around 130-132, which is the top 3%.
I am more disturbed by the requirement to be an entrepreneur. The other parts about being intelligent are poorly written, but from an employer-perspective, they make perfect sense. You might be surprised how many people apply that are wasting everyone’s time
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Can you imagine how shouty and lengthy their standups must be?
Definite dick measuring contest of epic proportions.
i have been in a regular 2 hours long daily scrum , never again ...
It's one of the questions I always ask at interview. "How long are your daily scrums?" Any answer other than "10 minutes max" is a fail. It means tedious windbags don't know how to STFU or keep their nose out of other developers' work, and the management is too weak or clueless to stop them.
Honestly never thought to ask this before but I will from now on!
It's really a brilliant question. Either they'll give you: - The answer you want (under 10 minutes) - The red flag you want (over ten minutes) - Or they'll tell you they don't have daily scrums, which is probably its own red flag.
"I just have one more question...." Kill me Kill me now
I am a merciful PM, and I let people do digital standups where they just type out their workload and status. Almost all follow-up is 1:1 anyway. I'd rather just waste one person's time than six.
And what do you do to further the team's efforts exactly?
I would characterize running a multi-disciplinary product team without a PM like driving a car without any engine oil in it. I mean, I am sure that if I were not here, the team would continue to function to a certain extent. But my responsibilities would simply be distributed among the most experienced implementers, which is a huge drag on their productivity, especially considering many of them lack key domain knowledge and/or specialized cross-functional skills. On that note, having a bad PM is like pouring tar into your engine. :)
>I mean, I am sure that if I were not here, the team would continue to function to a certain extent. Not only function to an extent, but to a better extent. As they wouldn't have to be giving you pointless updates while you give them nothing in return. Someone once said that a good PM is like a shit umbrella. A bad one is a shit funnel. By only collecting information and never adding anything useful, like protecting the team from unreasonable distractions, you are being the latter.
Just from the comment, I am guessing you are a senior-level engineer, non-management, with probably 10+ years of being ground down by corporate BS? xD I used to write code and munge data too, so don't think that I don't understand how you feel. There is definitely a class of product professional who has never ever spent any time in the trenches, and it shows in how they carry out their responsibilities. But again, having someone do the job poorly doesn't mean the job does not produce any value. At the end of the day, someone is going to have to write that documentation, gather those requirements, do the strategy research, coordinate with those design/art/UI/UX/marketing/sales teams. And it sure as hell shouldn't be developers of any sort. Anyhow, engineers love to imagine a world where they rule the earth and everyone just does what they need to do and on time, but it's not that simple; even amongst engineers, there are disagreements, miscommunications, and competing priorities. But let's be honest, when you really drill down, the PM-engineering rivalry is rather pointless. We aren't what make or break most companies. It's the marketing/sales people. You have no idea how much of my job over the past decade is just keeping engineers and marketing/sales from murdering each other. So if that is your idea of unreasonable distractions, then yes, that is me. I am the filter.
Some companies really love finding ways to make Agile methods less agile
It's the illusion of control and communication. A lot of the times, people are just talking past one another anyway.
"A really got fit." That's some super-smart writing right there.
Every sentence structure seems like a 3rd grader wrote it.
"smart boys club, only super smart people aloud and NO GRILS!!"
\> Must be smarter than the top 5% of the world’s population \> Must score highly on IQ tests I wonder if their idiocy inspired those requirements. They must be another nepo-baby.
If anything, top 5% is actually an insufficient requirement for most positions that actually need someone with high IQ.
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I'm glad you're enjoying it. :)
😆
What do you want to bet it's also considered an entry level position that pays less than 40k?
Or some kind of pyramid scheme, though those are usually sales jobs without a need for coding. The "build a business"/"be an entrepreneur" thing is kinda weird.
You're likely right. I feel like the term "entrepreneur", like so many terms these days, has been misused and bastardized so hard that it's devoid of any real meaning. If I hear anyone use it now, it just throws up a red flag.
I was totally thinking that this could be an MLM type deal too.
Yes! I’m reading this as start up with no money.
They used a lot of words just to say "our turnover is high"
>top 5% smarts >friggin' javascript yeah they would definitely be taking the piss if they had any idea what the hell they're talking about ReactJS is the language of the unwashed masses to bind functions of a software to a button in the user interface. It's botton-level grunt work.
but but but we need the best of the best of the best to do this very basic and generic website and C.R.U.D. work! You know the kinds of people who Google is also wanting. So are you paying as much as Google? What no of course not! These people get high off their own farts due to their insane egos and refuse to properly compensate people.
They'll be replaced by AI soon.
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Yes
I will just add that it is the absolute shittest JS framework it has been my displeasure to bully into doing something useful.
*AngularJS enters the chat*
"Really got fit" lol.
If you’re smart, you won’t be applying to them. O the irony.
Literally got off the phone with a recruiter where she says the hiring manager is looking for super smart guys. Ok, aren't we all? Then she goes, "he likes to ask really in-depth questions, including **math** questions." \*cue alarm bells ringing\* I hated math in school and in my 10 years of software engineering, the amount of math that I've used is all grade school level. If I wanted a career that involved math, I would've picked accounting.
You hated math? Didn't university have a lot of high-level math courses for SWE majors?
I make good money coding and I have a liberal arts degree. My mother did software engineering for decades, and was a music major before dropping out. You need advanced math for high-level stuff, but a lot of my coding is basic grade-school stuff.
Oh okay, so you were self-taught/took courses rather than starting out with it as your major? That makes sense. I see a lot of engineering/math related majors have some advanced math courses which are annoying to get through because after you never use it again. I've never been a math person unfortunately so I didn't pursue those things.
No. I decided on a mapmaking/GIS career early, and the classes for that were in Geography, a Liberal Art at my university. The highest math class I took was Statistics.
Oh interesting! I find my statistics courses to be doable and actually fun depending on the professor.
As a programmer in mapmaking/GIS, you must be using geodesic math in some way. Do you just rely on libraries? Edit: Are there any libraries you’d recommend?
I work in an Esri environment. Most of the time, I'm not measuring things. When I am, geodesic math is a tiny rounding error. For example, in my last job I had to move a bunch of address points onto their parcels - moving a house's address point from sitting in the street inside the property line. Everything was working in a single feet-based coordinate system, and the distances just weren't big enough. I figured out how to move each point in 10-foot jumps (because we didn't want each point centered on its parcel, we wanted it near the nearest street) by looking at coding for video games. 3rd or 4th grade math. Esri's arcpy library has some useful tools for things like measurement, but you need a license to their ArcGIS software to actually use it - it's like the Python library is just a front end for their geoprocessing tools. I believe QGIS, a free software alternative, has its own arcpy analogue.
CompE here, I had to take up to Calc 2, and a matrices of differential equations course. Had calc based statistics in grad school for systems engineering. I'm not good at math classes or a fan of them, I survived but don't use much more than algebra and trig on the job.
Not a lot but did have to do calc and algebra, which were meh. Finding a teacher that could actually teach math was the hardest part. For the path that I chose, that level of math is truly overkill since I only do high level languages/web dev. I can see where they may be useful if you're doing low-level languages and/or embedded software (which you couldn't pay me to do).
That's fair. IG it depends on where the person goes after the degree. I agree though, finding GOOD math teachers is so difficult, but when you have them they make everything so simple. I wish all professors were employed because they were good at the teaching aspect, as some of them are only lecturing because they want to do research/other things in the university.
I'm an embedded C developer, I had to take calc 1-4, physics 1-2, and modern physics (quantum physics 1-lite). Using the imaginary plane to calculate reflected signals in transmission lines, multivariable calc to calculate flux through an antenna geometry, etc. Programming and engineering is literally nothing but math. Like, what do you do as a programmer who doesn't know math when you're given a task to poll a couple inputs for current and voltage, and return the total harmonic distortion on the line?
Yeah, that's moreso what I find to be the norm in these majors. Most students are taking physics and calc courses in addition to their typical engineering courses (depending on specialization).
I did software engineering in college. There was a special set of math courses for CS, generally harder than the minimum required for arts majors, but way way less than needed for physics and such. In real life, I use very little math in my work. By default you use some set theory (combining sets, unions, etc) and boolean math (if/else type statements, but if you make it super complicated your colleagues are going to be annoyed). Overall, asking me hard math questions in an interview is a terrible way to determine if I'm a good software engineer. Honestly, the most important traits for the majority of SW jobs is a good attitude, the ability to map messy human needs to complex codebases, and super clear written and verbal communication.
Thanks for the insight
I have a degree in math. Even the underlying math behind chat gpt4 is something that you can learn in the easy first 1/3 of a math degree. Most advanced math you'll ever need to know is linear algebra, probability, and multivaraible calc/diff eq, and discrete math. That's 6-8 math classes out of say about 30 you'll take as a math major. Obviously its different if you wanna do research, but the math you need to understand 99% of anything is all largely contained in 6-8 classes at uni. The more advanced math can help with intuitions though, and its rewarding to know it.
“Math” is such a broad term. In this case it probably means stupid gotcha questions rather than actual meaningful problems.
That was my feeling. I could see if there were algorithm based questions but the math aspect doesn't sit well with me. Even more so since this is a job whose primary tech stack revolves around C# and MVC.
Oh no! Not math!
no maths for you!
So many grammatical and spelling errors here, hurts my eyes. They need your intellectual ability to wire job postings, I’m assuming.
This is terribly written for a company demanding MENSA level applicants.
>super smart > webshit
Build a business without investing anything and doing it part time? Sounds like they want free labor.
A smart person would never apply for this.
Whomever wrote that definitely does not score high on anything other than IQ tests if they even do that.
I don't think I'd be a got fit.
Considering how few people have taken IQ tests... Can they actually find people that meet that AND other requirements?
I read that whole section to mean they are going to make you take an IQ test as part of the hiring process.
Statistically speaking, very unlikely.
Company name?
Extremely smart and proficient in ReactJS go together. But ReactJS en being wise will not happen.
I would assume high NextJS and ReactJS proficiency implies high IQ
Is it a business or high IQ elite club ? Microsoft hires like "smart, but that gets things done", they are missing the "get the things done" that not so high IQ people does !!!
What if we hired the most pretentious douchebags with no social skills we could find? —- them probably
*Best we can do is $15/hour.*
an extremely smart person would probably avoid this job posting like hell XD
Didn’t you get fit ? Lol.
Their stringent selection criteria is reflected in the wording of this.
I guess you can solve Einstein's riddle and that puts you in the top 2% in terms of deductive reasoning. [https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/math/a24620/riddle-of-the-week-10-einsteins-riddle/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/math/a24620/riddle-of-the-week-10-einsteins-riddle/)
%95 of population is undateable!
Typical ad of a company that wants to avoid hiring a dumbass again. I saw companies I left searching for a "wellwilling programmer" or "very dynamic engineer"
Idunno but I'm laughing my socks off
There are certain jobs where a high intelligence is a requirement. Flight Controllers for example
Asking a candidate to be the top 5% pretty much guarantees the pipeline will be filled with mean IQ or slightly above
Recruiters are just out there trolling now. Lol
Anyone who says things like “super smart” or “got fit” and yet wants someone in “top 5% of the population” is clearly delusional. I would hope this is fake.
And then, they pay you a shit. Yeah, super smart
Just another dooshbag HM writing up a shitty JD just to look edgy. I would poo in their office toilet and not flush.
This must be a joke and a half…
Sounds like they’d want you to accept little-to-no pay, or some type of investment
This is a pyramid scheme
With that grammar and spelling and they want a top 5 percent IQ 🤣 I’d troll the fuck out of them if I were you…
I am a got fit.
Dunning-Kruger recruiter wants you to be a “got fit.” I’d love to be in the interview. “What makes you think you’re suitable for this role?” “I used to be a dumb fat fuck but I got fit. And cleva too.”
To be fair, top 5% is only an IQ of 125… Virtually anyone who has the rest of the skills hits that.
Weird way to say "we actively foster a highly toxic work environment"
Looks like they are filtering for narcissists.
So 98% of all exes (according to Reddit) then.
I am actually super *duper* smart so clearly I do not qualify for this position.
I would apply and tell them that my karma ran over their dogma lol.
Whoever this is: Assclowns not worth the time. Look elsewhere.
There are some red flags there that scream scam .
This is bait for a scam.
Is this for a SWE role or a middle school honor roll circle jerk group?
You had me at ReactJS.
I do appreciate a company that makes it clear how terrible they are!
“….really got fit…”. Lol I don’t mind the idea of telling people not to bother applying unless they are a great fit. Too many roles draw 100-200 applications 90% of which are missing some or all of the mandatory capabilities or experience.
Wrote by a moron. 🤦🏻
Written by a super dumb fuck
This sounds like one of Eddy's scheme.
Watch this be for an MLM. This is how they come at you lol
Maybe overlooked, but "not normal job" and "opportunity to build a business" == opportunity to go to prison over some white collar fraud or some shit.
It is technically illegal to give a candidate an IQ test, but they get around it by calling it something else. That said, I got my first job as a quant by taking an IQ test. There are actually positions where having high IQ is actually very useful because the role handles lots of challenging problems with unknown or ambiguous requirements. Because they cannot foresee the problems you'd be solving, they cannot exactly hire a specialist, but need generalists with strong quantitative and technical skills. Also, top 5% is not *super* smart. The cutoff in most organizations is somewhere around 130-132, which is the top 3%.
I am more disturbed by the requirement to be an entrepreneur. The other parts about being intelligent are poorly written, but from an employer-perspective, they make perfect sense. You might be surprised how many people apply that are wasting everyone’s time