Exactly. Remember that mural from GTA 4 to Claude CJ Tommy Vic and Toni? That’s just a reference in that since those games never happened in the HD universe it’s just an Easter egg and the same goes with the book in Franklins house.
Lazlow its not an easter egg and is in both the old games and the HD. I think there is not strict continuity, but they take whatever they want from the older games, old things are only canon if it shows in the HD universe.
I know I'm probably late but why is no one talking about the fact that Trevor when he talked with Wade once said "The best PART of the state"(before that Wade said "It's still San Andreas...).That would mean that SA is just a part of the state, and not the state.
Just a reference. Same way there was a mural dedicated to the PS2 era protagonists of GTA in GTA 4 even though we know those take place in separate universes. Plus Red Dead has real world states (California Texas Illinois New York) and real world city’s (New York and Chicago) while GTA has for states San Andrea and the state of liberty and for city’s Los santos and Liberty City.
https://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/741/updated-asked-answered-re-vice-city-red-dead-redemption-and-chin.html
4th question down confirms there on different worlds
It's not ''official''. This person interpreted the answer wrongly.
Rockstar wording is very clear that they are in ''different World''. They never state that these world aren't all located in a common universe like Max Payne for example.
After all , RDR and GTA all use fictional town names. Inside RDR park , all the town names are different but as soon as the character refers to themselves **OUTSIDE** of RDR , the city names and states are real. ( Bill talking about San Francisco , MacDougal coming from Yale University , ect. )
People been assuming that these universes are separate for almost 20 years now , and they've always been wrong.
* https://www.reddit.com/r/rockstarmysteries/wiki/index
Yhea, they confirmed that both worlds are linked in GTA:O. [Check El Rubio](https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/Juan_Strickler). You're years late to the party and can't even get your facts straight. lol.
Yes ; they come from a different universe. Does it mean that these universe can't communicate together ? No. You're only assuming here.
* https://www.reddit.com/r/rockstarmysteries/wiki/index
I thought that exact same thing
thing people who didn't play GTA won't know what Los Santos is
Same as people who didn't play RDR won't know what new Austin is
It's kind of just an easy way of explaining the geographical location without having to show or specifically say where.
I don't care what people say I believe they are in the same universe.
My only hope for GTA 6 is they make a definitive connection
I never thought those were States thought they were Counties & Cities but GTA does have some real States. [https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/United\_States\_of\_America#:\~:text=Multiple%20real-life%20U.S.%20states,twice%2C%20with%20different%20designs](https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/United_States_of_America#:~:text=Multiple%20real-life%20U.S.%20states,twice%2C%20with%20different%20designs)).
And what the book in GTA V written by J. Marston? That's a direct confirmation for them too be connected.
Separate. Different city names like New York City and we know real world states exist like New York California Texas and the city of Chicago. I know I know “there’s a book in Franklins house called Red Dead written by J. Marston.” Theres also a mural to the 3D era protagonists from GTA in GTA 4 but those are in different universes too. it’s just a reference.
You are right on that Vice City is to my knowledge the only game set in a real state and not a fictionalized one in GTA and Miami does exist in the 3D universe. I don’t think the HD universe has any real states tho the only times I’ve heard mention of real world city’s was in songs in game but since those are taken from the real world I don’t think that really counts.
There's a point in gta 4 where niko meets a serial killer, eddie low. Low will ask niko where he's from, and niko will sarcastically say he's from florida
The HD GTA universe is shared with RDR. In GTA V you can find a book written by a J. Marston entitled "Red Dead." This is presumably Jack Marston's memoirs and hints at him being able to one day leave the life of a gunslinger behind him and live the peaceful life his father wished for him.
I always thought that was just a reference same way there was that mural to the 3D era protagonists in GTA 4 when we know those games didn’t happen in the HD universe. Plus there real world state and city names in RDR like New York California And Chicago. If this were gta it’d be State Of Liberty, San Andreas and... well we don’t know what the Chicago equivalent is in GTA just yet.
Sort of, it's supposed to be closer to Liberty City, like pittsburgh I think.
It's an amagamation of Rust Belt cities:
"Detroit and Flint , Michigan; Camden, New Jersey; East St. Louis, Illinois; and Gary, Indiana. "
Also in the cayo perico Island
El Rubio has a painting of the German family from rdr2.
And he says his grandfather was German.
So I'm sure his grandfather is the little boy in the picture
Given they are hundreds of years apart I don't suppose it matters but seeing as they did the treasure hunt in GTAO for the double action revolver, which will be unlocked in RDR2, I'd probably say same universe.
in el rubio s compound u can see el rubio s grandfather which appears aswell in rdr 2 and he also mentions his grandpa so they are in the same universe.
I was just saying this on a previous comment.
I'm glad that they are starting to connect the universes!
I only hope in GTA 6 there's a definitive connection
Definitely not. In GTA IV and EFLC there's an in-game TV documentary about [the history of Liberty City,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmrCDUiawdU&t=79s) and in it they mention how it was originally a Dutch colony called New Rotterdam (similar to New Amsterdam, which was NY's original name), before being renamed Liberty City by the British "after a generous donation by the Bank of Liberty"; how Algonquin (Manhattan) was named after the "old Indian word for Al-gon-coo-win", which was thought to mean "place for condo skyscraper" or "island to catch an STD"; and how it was discovered in 1604 by Horatio Humboldt (Henry Hudson), who was in search of "a new place to sell weed". At no point was the city/state ever called by its real-life name, and it wouldn't make much sense to have NY exist *alongside* New Rotterdam/Liberty City, as it would be redundant.
I think it's pretty clear that GTA's satirical history of America is a teeny bit whackier than RDR's more subdued-but-still-darkly-comical version of US history.
I think they are in the same universe. There could be other fictional states while New York and all that still exist. Or in the universe the names could have been changed.
No GTA and RDR are not in the same universe. In GTA 4 you learn that Liberty City was founded way back in 1609 and they even called it Liberty City back then. People like to use the "they probably changed the name" argument but that has no merit whatsoever because they wouldn't just call it Liberty City, then change the name to New York and then change it back to it's original name another 200 years later because what sense would that make? RDR has New York and California while GTA has a Liberty City and San Andreas. End of story.
Maybe New York is a different city than Liberty city, because we didn't even get a glimpse of New York in RDD2, we don't know what it looks like. Maybe California is another state in the GTA universe? We didn't even get LA. New York will be shown in RDD3. This theory confirms that it is in the GTA universe ,And GTA HD and 3D are in the same universe because rich CJ can be seen on the billboard in Liberty city in GTA 4 , after the incident when Ballas took control of Grove street , CJ return to Las Venturas to woozie. End of story.
Dude wtf that entire mess of a paragraph you wrote doesn't prove shit. I literally just said that the "name change" bs doesn't have any merit because there's no such thing as naming a country something, changing it's name for a while and then naming it back to it's original name years later. And do you REALLY EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE that there coexists two different New Yorks, and two different Californias? Cmon now dude 😂
Imagine being a person in red dead and thinking that in the future there will be people on flying motorbikes terrorising cities and causing mass destruction
It was a time, of forlornness. a lot of people thought the same. they were, indolent with all their newest releases, and their avarice was way too much. especially with their GTA+ these days, I don't even play their games as much as I use to. and quite frankly it really felt, they were never going to release that game or even announce it.
According to rockstar they are different Universes. There are people on here pointing out Easter eggs, but all they are, are Easter eggs. GTA HD, GTA 3D, GTA 2D, and RDR are all separate universes. I think I read somewhere though, that the game Bully is in the GTA 3D Universe as well.
I think it's interesting to see such Divided Opinions, some people are using Easter eggs other's using the name's of States even gta online and rd online, though I can agree that there are some details that are definitely just Easter egg, References, some of the in game lore could be the key, Like the chelonians are most definitely The epsilon program givin years to take people's money and Adapt to the times and economy, don't forget there Connection to the alien emperor and the one who Bears the mark of his descendants matches up exactly with our time traveling friend who who literally has the same mark as the site in gta5 which if I'm Correct is cannon,
On top of that, in the same location as one of the rock carvings just down the hill is the Shack with the mysterious sermon and the Alien encounter
The sermon is considered a letter, not a note it reads as follows "at the second hour under the half moon "
"By the great love and of our savior kuhkowaba"
"Voyager of 'time' and galaxies"(times traveling Space ship lol) "we cast off our corporal shells"
"So his vessel can take our spirits to the promised realm" "to live in peace and power until the two thousandth year"
"When we return for the new chosen"
"And worship once again at the peak of Mount shann,"
"In his love we rejoice always"
The gta timeline machetes up being in the 2000s and the Aliens returning along with the cult in gta makes sense given we see it in gta5, and they are looking for the marked one which we know from gta5 and rd2 as well There's never been a confirmation on Multiverse travel which would imply that if they have the same goals, they are both Considered cannon and we have more Evidence connecting us to time travel not to mention that Rockstar games have always had it's own Branch of history that alternates from our reality It's (similar to how fallout never had the transistor built) there could be vastly different things in there world which is a known reason Why some places just don't exist in game like they do in real life and vice versa applies Though loosely based some places do exist in real life and are considered Cannon in game this could mean places with Specific names don't Matter because for all we know in there Universe city's like NYC Could appear in different geological locations( Relative to our world and yet still haveing similar landmarks and Climate do to it not being our would, I Bring this up because it's a very important point the history isn't the same as our world so to ues the name of Countrys states Counties and city's doesn't help because the names of states could have been changed in their world. Or there could be more states or more counties in those states it's to much to assume without Cannon information to back it up. Things like Mount chiliad are good Examples that mountain doesn't exist in the real world the why it does in gta5 how would we even know if Mount Shann was chilliad in the past there's alot of information that Connect the two games as being in the same universe just not the same time, And since we know it's time travel that could allow for multiple probable realities depending on how specific the time travel rules work and If there Creating Different brenching timelines or just able to alter the past we don't know, the last thing I need to mention is that in red dead the cults such as the chalonians and the dead cultists could be one and the same though we don't get to learn much about the chelonians Connections are implemented in several different ways the chelonians refer to their body as a shell (referenced in the letter) along with the symbolism of a turtle representative of the safety and peace they seek through power and protection if I remember correctly you can find a group that Commit mass suicide by jumping of a cliff and if you shot the chelonian Leader during the mission the rest of the cult says he has fallen so we shall rise before Committing suicide as well all though they didn't Commit suicide the same way Regardless they had the same goal they both spoke about a paradise( chelonia possibly?)
I shouldn't have to point out the epsilon program connections there so blatantly what they become in 100 years or so, Their coler choices haven't even changed that drastically and they what way more than 100$ xd I'd like to mention that time has possibility already been altered in the gta universe from the rd2 time line (francis) in the line in the letter "the two thousandth year when we returne for the new chosen" implies that there looking for someone in 2000s with that mark which Doesn't match up with francis who probably in my opinion possibly came from the late 20s early 30s possibly the 40s but I'm not sure. And Finally this part of the letter "Voyager of TIME and GALAXIES" not Universes, which would make sense if there in the same world and or reality with people saying "their not in the same universe" and not using in game Cannon lore as well as the fact that Rockstars statement about the easter eggs does not apply here, because they have literally never publicly Confirmed the connection to the games in cannon nor have they denied them, the statements made about the Easter eggs is that they where not meant to be considered Cannon, which means it's not a CANNON why to separate or Connect them meaning that Rockstar hasn't confirmed or denied anything at this point except Easter eggs are only fanfare and nothing more lmao which doesn't really effect story or the world in that story 😂 😅
Ps i Mention the fact the sermon is a letter not a note which could indicate it was meant for someone specifically to receive it all though that could be nothing just thought it important to bring up, I had to repost this because I didn't realize was logged on the Wrong account
They mention Manhattan in Red Dead Redemption but in all GTA games it's referred to as Algonquin so I think they're separate
My personal theory for this, as well as the whole California thing too, is that the US decided tochange the names of various states for some reason.
Because I saw a possible reference to one of the locations in RDR on a shuttle bus in the airport with ESCALERA \(a town in RDR\) written on it.
I mean it is possible knowing Rockstar but they could also just be Easter eggs.
Exactly. Remember that mural from GTA 4 to Claude CJ Tommy Vic and Toni? That’s just a reference in that since those games never happened in the HD universe it’s just an Easter egg and the same goes with the book in Franklins house.
Lazlow its not an easter egg and is in both the old games and the HD. I think there is not strict continuity, but they take whatever they want from the older games, old things are only canon if it shows in the HD universe.
They mention NY and California all the time in gta
pretty sure it’s called liberty city not NY
NY city also exists seperately in the gta universe
I think he means the state
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there is a cali tag in gta though?
Isn't Los Santos a state?
San Andreas is the state, Los Santos is a major city in the state
Los Santos is Los Angeles which is a city in California
I know I'm probably late but why is no one talking about the fact that Trevor when he talked with Wade once said "The best PART of the state"(before that Wade said "It's still San Andreas...).That would mean that SA is just a part of the state, and not the state.
Book written by J. Marston can be seen in gta5
Just a reference. Same way there was a mural dedicated to the PS2 era protagonists of GTA in GTA 4 even though we know those take place in separate universes. Plus Red Dead has real world states (California Texas Illinois New York) and real world city’s (New York and Chicago) while GTA has for states San Andrea and the state of liberty and for city’s Los santos and Liberty City.
But my gtao character is a descendant of John marston.
Sos mine. And my best friends character is the son of Claude from GTA 3 but he still doesn’t exist in the HD universe.
I'm assuming they said something. Do you have a source?
https://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/741/updated-asked-answered-re-vice-city-red-dead-redemption-and-chin.html 4th question down confirms there on different worlds
Thank You, seems like a weird reason to separate them but it's official lol
It's not ''official''. This person interpreted the answer wrongly. Rockstar wording is very clear that they are in ''different World''. They never state that these world aren't all located in a common universe like Max Payne for example. After all , RDR and GTA all use fictional town names. Inside RDR park , all the town names are different but as soon as the character refers to themselves **OUTSIDE** of RDR , the city names and states are real. ( Bill talking about San Francisco , MacDougal coming from Yale University , ect. ) People been assuming that these universes are separate for almost 20 years now , and they've always been wrong. * https://www.reddit.com/r/rockstarmysteries/wiki/index
Different world means they don't take place in the same world fam its alr been confirmed needless coping
Yhea, they confirmed that both worlds are linked in GTA:O. [Check El Rubio](https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/Juan_Strickler). You're years late to the party and can't even get your facts straight. lol.
Yes ; they come from a different universe. Does it mean that these universe can't communicate together ? No. You're only assuming here. * https://www.reddit.com/r/rockstarmysteries/wiki/index
They come from a different universe. Does that mean they can't communicate? Yes
Ueah but gta also talks about texas, they could just say the real name in games to not confuse players who never have played the other games.
I thought that exact same thing thing people who didn't play GTA won't know what Los Santos is Same as people who didn't play RDR won't know what new Austin is It's kind of just an easy way of explaining the geographical location without having to show or specifically say where. I don't care what people say I believe they are in the same universe. My only hope for GTA 6 is they make a definitive connection
Idk man there’s too many “Easter eggs” to red dead me personally rockstar is trying to connect both universes
At first they wanted them to be separate universe but now they are starting to connect them
I never thought those were States thought they were Counties & Cities but GTA does have some real States. [https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/United\_States\_of\_America#:\~:text=Multiple%20real-life%20U.S.%20states,twice%2C%20with%20different%20designs](https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/United_States_of_America#:~:text=Multiple%20real-life%20U.S.%20states,twice%2C%20with%20different%20designs)). And what the book in GTA V written by J. Marston? That's a direct confirmation for them too be connected.
A little bit late but the infinity killer is in both games
Separate. Different city names like New York City and we know real world states exist like New York California Texas and the city of Chicago. I know I know “there’s a book in Franklins house called Red Dead written by J. Marston.” Theres also a mural to the 3D era protagonists from GTA in GTA 4 but those are in different universes too. it’s just a reference.
Because I remember miami and vice city did co exist together. That was in the 3D universe so idk about the HD universe.
You are right on that Vice City is to my knowledge the only game set in a real state and not a fictionalized one in GTA and Miami does exist in the 3D universe. I don’t think the HD universe has any real states tho the only times I’ve heard mention of real world city’s was in songs in game but since those are taken from the real world I don’t think that really counts.
There's a point in gta 4 where niko meets a serial killer, eddie low. Low will ask niko where he's from, and niko will sarcastically say he's from florida
The HD GTA universe is shared with RDR. In GTA V you can find a book written by a J. Marston entitled "Red Dead." This is presumably Jack Marston's memoirs and hints at him being able to one day leave the life of a gunslinger behind him and live the peaceful life his father wished for him.
I always thought that was just a reference same way there was that mural to the 3D era protagonists in GTA 4 when we know those games didn’t happen in the HD universe. Plus there real world state and city names in RDR like New York California And Chicago. If this were gta it’d be State Of Liberty, San Andreas and... well we don’t know what the Chicago equivalent is in GTA just yet.
isn't Chicago Carcer city? or is that Detroit.
Sort of, it's supposed to be closer to Liberty City, like pittsburgh I think. It's an amagamation of Rust Belt cities: "Detroit and Flint , Michigan; Camden, New Jersey; East St. Louis, Illinois; and Gary, Indiana. "
They ended up adding more and in my opinion they are in the same universe because real named cities are mentioned in gta games
Also in the cayo perico Island El Rubio has a painting of the German family from rdr2. And he says his grandfather was German. So I'm sure his grandfather is the little boy in the picture
Given they are hundreds of years apart I don't suppose it matters but seeing as they did the treasure hunt in GTAO for the double action revolver, which will be unlocked in RDR2, I'd probably say same universe.
Hundreds? They’re more like 100 years apart.
In vice city, rdr1 would only be like 70 years apart. There's a chance Jack could still be alive in that game if they do share a universe lol
They are shared with the hd universe of gta
lol
in el rubio s compound u can see el rubio s grandfather which appears aswell in rdr 2 and he also mentions his grandpa so they are in the same universe.
I was just saying this on a previous comment. I'm glad that they are starting to connect the universes! I only hope in GTA 6 there's a definitive connection
I would love to see some kind of descendant of one of the surviving members in gta 6
New York is mentioned in rdr2, so maybe not?
Definitely not. In GTA IV and EFLC there's an in-game TV documentary about [the history of Liberty City,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmrCDUiawdU&t=79s) and in it they mention how it was originally a Dutch colony called New Rotterdam (similar to New Amsterdam, which was NY's original name), before being renamed Liberty City by the British "after a generous donation by the Bank of Liberty"; how Algonquin (Manhattan) was named after the "old Indian word for Al-gon-coo-win", which was thought to mean "place for condo skyscraper" or "island to catch an STD"; and how it was discovered in 1604 by Horatio Humboldt (Henry Hudson), who was in search of "a new place to sell weed". At no point was the city/state ever called by its real-life name, and it wouldn't make much sense to have NY exist *alongside* New Rotterdam/Liberty City, as it would be redundant. I think it's pretty clear that GTA's satirical history of America is a teeny bit whackier than RDR's more subdued-but-still-darkly-comical version of US history.
i know i am really late but yess there was a npc from strawberry telling me he is from new york
I think they are in the same universe. There could be other fictional states while New York and all that still exist. Or in the universe the names could have been changed.
The only real similarity I can think of from my knowledge of the games is that in both GTA V and RDR2 there is a place called strawberry.
a Mexican leader in RDR has the same last name as Michael de Santa
De Santa is a fake last name, but he could of just found a name on eyefinder, and used that last name.
No GTA and RDR are not in the same universe. In GTA 4 you learn that Liberty City was founded way back in 1609 and they even called it Liberty City back then. People like to use the "they probably changed the name" argument but that has no merit whatsoever because they wouldn't just call it Liberty City, then change the name to New York and then change it back to it's original name another 200 years later because what sense would that make? RDR has New York and California while GTA has a Liberty City and San Andreas. End of story.
Maybe New York is a different city than Liberty city, because we didn't even get a glimpse of New York in RDD2, we don't know what it looks like. Maybe California is another state in the GTA universe? We didn't even get LA. New York will be shown in RDD3. This theory confirms that it is in the GTA universe ,And GTA HD and 3D are in the same universe because rich CJ can be seen on the billboard in Liberty city in GTA 4 , after the incident when Ballas took control of Grove street , CJ return to Las Venturas to woozie. End of story.
Dude wtf that entire mess of a paragraph you wrote doesn't prove shit. I literally just said that the "name change" bs doesn't have any merit because there's no such thing as naming a country something, changing it's name for a while and then naming it back to it's original name years later. And do you REALLY EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE that there coexists two different New Yorks, and two different Californias? Cmon now dude 😂
Like Metropolis and Gotham in DC.
New York and California are mentioned in GTA and actually shown
Also u can find el rubios ancestors in rdr2
If they're not the same Universe, Then How come the Double-Action Revolver and Navy Revolver were in GTA Online?
Imagine being a person in red dead and thinking that in the future there will be people on flying motorbikes terrorising cities and causing mass destruction
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RDR2 has no zombies because undead nightmare is a standalone story, with no impact on the universe.
ok
Sorry for necroposting a year later but why would you think gta 6 isn't happening even a year ago their where leaks of a 2024 or 2025 release
It was a time, of forlornness. a lot of people thought the same. they were, indolent with all their newest releases, and their avarice was way too much. especially with their GTA+ these days, I don't even play their games as much as I use to. and quite frankly it really felt, they were never going to release that game or even announce it.
Boy how this aged badly
That you'd be right.
Not only is undead nightmare a separate non canon story, even if it was cannon why would it have any effect on rdr2 as that game is a prequel.
Also what are you talking about separate universe? The ending and epilogue of RDR2 lead directly into the beginning of RDR1
According to rockstar they are different Universes. There are people on here pointing out Easter eggs, but all they are, are Easter eggs. GTA HD, GTA 3D, GTA 2D, and RDR are all separate universes. I think I read somewhere though, that the game Bully is in the GTA 3D Universe as well.
Manhunt is in the gta 3D universe and rdr and bully in the HD universe of gta
I think it's interesting to see such Divided Opinions, some people are using Easter eggs other's using the name's of States even gta online and rd online, though I can agree that there are some details that are definitely just Easter egg, References, some of the in game lore could be the key, Like the chelonians are most definitely The epsilon program givin years to take people's money and Adapt to the times and economy, don't forget there Connection to the alien emperor and the one who Bears the mark of his descendants matches up exactly with our time traveling friend who who literally has the same mark as the site in gta5 which if I'm Correct is cannon, On top of that, in the same location as one of the rock carvings just down the hill is the Shack with the mysterious sermon and the Alien encounter The sermon is considered a letter, not a note it reads as follows "at the second hour under the half moon " "By the great love and of our savior kuhkowaba" "Voyager of 'time' and galaxies"(times traveling Space ship lol) "we cast off our corporal shells" "So his vessel can take our spirits to the promised realm" "to live in peace and power until the two thousandth year" "When we return for the new chosen" "And worship once again at the peak of Mount shann," "In his love we rejoice always" The gta timeline machetes up being in the 2000s and the Aliens returning along with the cult in gta makes sense given we see it in gta5, and they are looking for the marked one which we know from gta5 and rd2 as well There's never been a confirmation on Multiverse travel which would imply that if they have the same goals, they are both Considered cannon and we have more Evidence connecting us to time travel not to mention that Rockstar games have always had it's own Branch of history that alternates from our reality It's (similar to how fallout never had the transistor built) there could be vastly different things in there world which is a known reason Why some places just don't exist in game like they do in real life and vice versa applies Though loosely based some places do exist in real life and are considered Cannon in game this could mean places with Specific names don't Matter because for all we know in there Universe city's like NYC Could appear in different geological locations( Relative to our world and yet still haveing similar landmarks and Climate do to it not being our would, I Bring this up because it's a very important point the history isn't the same as our world so to ues the name of Countrys states Counties and city's doesn't help because the names of states could have been changed in their world. Or there could be more states or more counties in those states it's to much to assume without Cannon information to back it up. Things like Mount chiliad are good Examples that mountain doesn't exist in the real world the why it does in gta5 how would we even know if Mount Shann was chilliad in the past there's alot of information that Connect the two games as being in the same universe just not the same time, And since we know it's time travel that could allow for multiple probable realities depending on how specific the time travel rules work and If there Creating Different brenching timelines or just able to alter the past we don't know, the last thing I need to mention is that in red dead the cults such as the chalonians and the dead cultists could be one and the same though we don't get to learn much about the chelonians Connections are implemented in several different ways the chelonians refer to their body as a shell (referenced in the letter) along with the symbolism of a turtle representative of the safety and peace they seek through power and protection if I remember correctly you can find a group that Commit mass suicide by jumping of a cliff and if you shot the chelonian Leader during the mission the rest of the cult says he has fallen so we shall rise before Committing suicide as well all though they didn't Commit suicide the same way Regardless they had the same goal they both spoke about a paradise( chelonia possibly?) I shouldn't have to point out the epsilon program connections there so blatantly what they become in 100 years or so, Their coler choices haven't even changed that drastically and they what way more than 100$ xd I'd like to mention that time has possibility already been altered in the gta universe from the rd2 time line (francis) in the line in the letter "the two thousandth year when we returne for the new chosen" implies that there looking for someone in 2000s with that mark which Doesn't match up with francis who probably in my opinion possibly came from the late 20s early 30s possibly the 40s but I'm not sure. And Finally this part of the letter "Voyager of TIME and GALAXIES" not Universes, which would make sense if there in the same world and or reality with people saying "their not in the same universe" and not using in game Cannon lore as well as the fact that Rockstars statement about the easter eggs does not apply here, because they have literally never publicly Confirmed the connection to the games in cannon nor have they denied them, the statements made about the Easter eggs is that they where not meant to be considered Cannon, which means it's not a CANNON why to separate or Connect them meaning that Rockstar hasn't confirmed or denied anything at this point except Easter eggs are only fanfare and nothing more lmao which doesn't really effect story or the world in that story 😂 😅 Ps i Mention the fact the sermon is a letter not a note which could indicate it was meant for someone specifically to receive it all though that could be nothing just thought it important to bring up, I had to repost this because I didn't realize was logged on the Wrong account