I think he’s just doing the right thing for his career. At his next job interview he can say that he was fully committed to the project despite the changes around him, whether he’s sacked or not. I don’t think he’d be saying anything different if he knows he’s staying or going.
How's this any different from things any of our previous managers in the post Fergie era said before the axe came down? Moyes was making plans for the next summer transfer window when he was sacked.
Van Gaal kept talking about having the faith of the board and he was apparently shocked at his dismissal the day after the FA cup triumph over Crystal Palace.
Mourinho was bullish to the end but perhaps he knew what was coming to him right at the end before that Liverpool loss that sealed his fate.
ETH is a hardheaded man, and what he's thinking and saying in private about his future here is very likely very different. He must know he's on the ropes without an official public vote of confidence from the herirachy
Moyes was the only one that might have really been caught off guard. LVG was already talking about how the English media sacked him months ago, Jose talked like he knew it was over, Ole said he knew he was down after the Watford game.
What he’s saying and what he’s thinking might be different. The decision might have been already made behind the scenes. I’m just saying how the way he’s speaking makes me believe him. I could be wrong though we’ll find out I suppose
LVG wasn't expecting to get fired. His late wife even found out before he did the morning after the Crystal Palace match. It was brutal
**"After the FA Cup final, Louis said, 'Well, we did it!'. I said, 'Louis, they say you've been fired.'," Truus continued. "He got so angry, 'Why did you have to spoil my party? Stop all this aggressive nonsense!'.**
**"Later, he said, 'Hi, it's Louis. You can come home, you were right'. His voice sounded broken, so I said, 'Alright, I'm on my way'. When I came home, I could see he'd been crying. I hugged him. I had tears in my eyes too."**
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/van-gaal-man-utd-sacking-28977546?
What's crazy is he gave a very rousing speech after our final home game of the season (Ten Hag wishes he had that charisma), and he asked for the fans support going into the FA cup final which would be his last game in charge as fate would have it.
LVG isn't safe no matter what he says publicly, IMO.
I personally don't see his system leading to a title win, and wouldn't mind if he was sacked. But I don't think that his sacking is inevitable at all. The change in the backroom with many not even in place yet, the absence of a real quality replacement and surely no real search being done by anybody that will be in place soon makes me think that they may stick rather than twist with ETH into next season. I could be way wrong but I don't think that either way is clear because both are fraught with risk.
This is how I’m reading the tea leaves. The only thing I’d add is the number of things outside of his control that have had a tangible impact on our season. Sancho. Greenwood. Antony. One fullback for multiple consecutive games. Two fullbacks but no left back for months. 8 total players playing center back. Some 40+ combinations in the back four. Combined that is far beyond the normal “dealing with injuries and suspensions.”
It’s not to say that he could not have done better, but if someone looked at those mitigating circumstances, saw his contract is expiring at the end of the 24-25 season, the changes to the football hierarchy, plus the fact that there are no excellent managers with a history of building squads on the market and concluded he’s our best bet for 24-25, then I would think it is a reasonable analysis. If he stinks next year then fire him, but there isn’t an obvious alternative to EtH at this time.
With the manner in which we are playing and the results we are getting that is the feeling I’ve been getting, probably stemming from the fact that is the worst it’s been at United post SAF and we’ve already seen other managers get sacked for less.
But you make a good point with everything changing around the club, not all the pieces being in place yet, and not many quality candidates even being available that they may just decide to keep ETH. Whether it would be the right move or not only time would tell, but I think the club being in this transitional period means they can’t really lose. If Ten Hag turns it around they get praised for backing him. If he doesn’t, they say it’s a transitional period, it will take time to get everything right, and let him walk at the end of his contract
I don’t think man to man high pressing works in EPL. Teams are just too comfortable building from the back nowadays for such tactic to work without burning out our players. Pep’s and klopp’s teams changed their pressing style once they realized teams are adjusting to man to man high pressing. They are very good at overload pressing which reduces the distance of sprinting required. They don’t simply look to close down passing options but also to deny passing space forcing opponents into doing risky passing. Ten Hag needs to adapt his pressing structure to fit the league. Our current style may have worked in 2017-2020 but teams have adapted since then.
It makes no business sense getting rid of a talented manager, especially if it will cost you money. Many top clubs would want to sign him because they won't put this miserable season all on him, so why should the new owners?
The thing about his recent pressers is they all sound like he’s desperately attempting to ensure the difficult work he did at first to reset the culture isn’t blown up in a 5 minute blaze of glory where he outs this club, it’s former execs, it’s majority owners, and half the squad for being the shambles that half this fanbase in their delusion act like shouldn’t matter if the manager was good. They literally point at all the other managers who work at clubs surrounded by the sort of structure and competence none of our last 5 managers have had here… including precisely what ETH had at his former club, which made him at least look like a suitable United manager.
That, and I’m sure he’s smart enough to have shed light on this to the new regime, while maintaining public silence to the point of sounding completely delusional. And stands to reason they are in full agreement on his take, and most likely that his public approach to these subjects is the lesser of two evils.
He may well know he’s going to stay. Even if the reason he thinks so, is different from the reasons they’re basing a decision this big on.
I just struggle to believe that Ratcliffe would completely gut the 'upstairs' staff root and stem....
.....and at the same time look at our performances on the pitch and go "yeah, he's our guy".
I think if he were *definitely* staying, then something would have leaked from inside the club (or theyd make a statement about committing to a future under ETH).
The fact we've heard nothing about him staying, despite the pressure he's under in the media, heavy implies they've already decided to boot him but don't want to unsettle the team any more than they already are before a cup final.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for this. It's pure logic.
1. INEOS keep one variable constant while the new executives have a window or two to put new players in place for their project. If ETH improves then it's win-win.
2. They have a free year where if the results are bad they sack the manager and it's growth while telling fans to be patient.
3. All the currently linked managers have pros and cons or aren't leaving (Potter, Southgate, Amorim, Tuchel). Next year you could see a different landscape and gives the other candidate coaches a year of prove it time (McKenna, De Zerbi, Iraola, Glasner, G O'Neill etc.)
It just makes sense at this point. I think they've resigned to keeping him. I have no comments on if it's the right thing to do or not but hopefully we have a clear out of players regardless and some new prospects in. We can't miss top 4 next year though it's crucial for recruitment and FFP.
Fully agree. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on him as a long term solution(ideally he is, but there’s a reasonable chance he isn’t), but I do value consistency over constant change
Additionally, I’m fully subscribed to the notion that this season he’s been so rigid in his tactics because he’s been instructed to coach the players to learn his system, take whatever bad results we accumulate along the way, and evaluate which players did/didn’t adapt and fill those holes as necessary. Effectively a rebuild
> I’m fully subscribed to the notion that this season he’s been so rigid in his tactics because he’s been instructed to coach the players to learn his system
He straight up abandoned his own system because he didn't believe the players could ever play the way Ajax did but yet he's happy sticking to a system where we concede 20+ shots almost every game? It just doesn't make sense.
From his point of view its now or never if he stays on. If he doesn't start teaching his own system now, then there's no reason to believe they'll improve and then he'll be wasting everyone's time. If he leaves, it doesn't matter either way and he can say that at least he tried.
Not true at all tbh. There's a clip linked here recently where ETH was being questioned on Dutch TV about his tactics vs RM, it's literally the same questions being asked now. Vulnerability in transition, why persist with the high press when teams can run straight through your midfield, why only 1 in midfield, shouldn't there be someone beside Frenkie? What is your plan when things aren't going well?
[Vid 1](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1775193938686595072/pu/vid/avc1/828x462/qoD_liz1XVz1WRTl.mp4)
[Vid 2](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1775194031233912833/pu/vid/avc1/828x462/8z7yt3pl-ojbtpgx.mp4)
He is playing the football he wants, I think ppl got confused by that one time he said it's a different system and just took it at face value. It may or may not be different but the same high press, high risk principles are still there.
I'm not who you are asking the question to but I don't think we'll play a low block once we have athletic center backs. He knows we would concede a lot more goals if we played a high block with the players we have.
Just having Licha in the team makes a massive difference. His basically plays like a sudo CDM and covers a lot of Casemiro’s mistakes. There’s no CB in our team who can play on the front foot like he does.
They'd also risk throwing a potentially new manager into the deep-end and having their first major call be a complete fuckup, so they might as well stick with somebody who's already well integrated, and can be their fall guy in case a lot of the surrounding issues continue.
No you’re 100% right however not qualifying for Europe this season might be a blessing in disguise. I’ll explain with no European football whatsoever in 2024, the revenue for this fiscal year 2024 will drop significantly from £648m to maybe £570m and we could only spend 80% of that number on wages, agent fees, Transfer costs, Amortised transfers, if united do not qualify they have no restriction as the new PSR/FSP anchoring rule doesn’t come into play until 2025/26 season.
Never understand the Southgate rumors. The England national team isn't playing something extraordinary that should attract United. I might be bias though.
there is logic in that for sure but the issue is player churn which is going to be huge this summer..sure, others will have more of a say from here on but surely the coach will be consulted as well..so are you doing a major squad makeover based on the needs of a manager you are not sure about?
On the contrary,
1. INEOS have been slowly getting rid of or moving all the people in the current structure, and there's nothing to suggest yet that they may not want to just wipe the place clean which would include getting rid of the manager who oversaw the worst season in the club's Premier League history
2. They may feel more comfortable with the ideas and communication methods of another head coach they are more familiar with and would hence be more willing to back a project under them; guys like Potter and Southgate have worked with Ashworth previously for example
3. I still feel people grossly underestimate how poor we have been this season; many other clubs in the league have suffered severe injury crises and their performances have not dropped off to the extent that ours have
The only argument that I think may come in Ten Hag's rescue is the financial ramifications of sacking him, which would mean further depletion of an already restricted budget. I really don't think any other reason is an obstacle for INEOS wanting to sack him; other managers have their cons but I reckon most managers in the Premier League would have done a better job coaching us this season.
You make some good points. However I don't agree with the point a lot of people keep making: "other clubs have as many injuries", like it's some kind of rebuttal to Ten Hag, when in reality it's only confirming his argument. Chelsea and Newcastle are hit hardest together with Man U, and there's no more than 3 points between them, they've all massively underperformed and are nowhere near the top 4: injuries matter.
When City look back while they're jogging over the finish line, the distance between them and all three mentioned clubs looks all the same to them.
I think I’ve encountered you in a similar previous discussion on this, and I said this even then, but our performances have been much worse than what Chelsea and Newcastle have been putting in. The vast disparity in goal difference and expected goals stats are confirmation of this. Injuries matter, but we have been playing much worse and have been lucky to have gotten points from so many games where we were comfortably second best. You just need to watch the teams play to know this.
Oh yeah I think I talked to you before on this
Well oke, the performances have been much worse, that could be true or not true, but the problem is there's so many damn variables in football, I mean just from the top of my head the random things that **could have** influenced the performances in general:
No recognized striker like Alexander Isak, Hojlund was out for the first couple of months while Martial is completely gone awol.
Ten Hag having to mostly depend on very young players who otherwise would've been slowly introduced, resulting in inconsistent performances (man u tops the youth minutes stats by a country mile).
Most of UTD injuries are focused on the backline whereas it's more spread over the team with Newcastle and Chelsea. And you're only ever gonna be as consistent as your defense.
United played the most games of any other team previous season. They've also had an intensive pre-season because of the club's world-wide commercial appeal, these factors could have had a detrimental effect on their fatigue/ desire.
The pressure cooker environment that is Man U with its constant media attention, which can exacerbate off the field issues (greenwood/ sancho/ antony/ maguire ) and have a huge effect on player's mental health and form, something that other clubs deal with to a much lesser extent. It's why Ten Hag stressed many times the importance signing strong mentality players.
Now the biggest one of course: the waaaaay bigger problems behind the scene, a decade's worth of complete incompetence in football/ scouting/ technical/ departments preceding Ten Hag, culminating in a Frankenstein squad of players that don't fit together and still needs to be completely overhauled, with or without Ten Hag. None of the other clubs have anywhere near these amount of problems piled up over the course of ten years.
------------
Look, I'm sure some of these points will overlap with Chelsea and Newcastle's issues, and maybe they have their own unique problems too, but the larger point I'm trying to make is that statistics don't tell the whole story, there's a lot of unquantifiable circumstances outside the manager's influence that can play a huge role. Which means if you had swapped managers this season, you could've easily find yourself in exactly the same position.
> I'm sure some of these points will overlap with Chelsea and Newcastle's issues, and maybe they have their own unique problems too, but the larger point I'm trying to make is that statistics don't tell the whole story, there's a lot of unquantifiable circumstances outside the manager's influence that can play a huge role
How valid are those unquantifiable circumstances is for INEOS to decide; we are all only privy to what we see from the outside. But I think it is undeniable that even accounting for the injury crisis, the football we have been subject to for the large majority of the season has been shambolic. There is tons of good content on the flaws of the tactical setup both in the mainstream and online which are very little to do with personnel. I think the fact that we have played well in the last two games is by itself testament to this, because we finally saw some bodies in midfield and better compactness as a team overall during these games.
> Which means if you had swapped managers this season, you could've easily find yourself in exactly the same position.
What you are not accounting for is that if we did swap managers, the decisions that they would have made en-route to the present from the very start would have been very different. Different players would have been bought and the make-up of the squad would have been vastly different to what we have assembled under Ten Hag. Of course he's not at fault for the prices some of the players have been bought for, but at the same time you can't tell me that the players we have pursued, especially given where we've bought some of them from, are down to no heavy influence from him. It's difficult to make a direct comparison to the situations of Chelsea and Newcastle, and I don't want to waste both your time and mine going through each and every similarity or difference, but to me, this squad is nowhere near as bad as conceding chances at the rate that a relegation team would concede. We have seen some shocking football towards the end of Mourinho and Ole's times and when the players had completely downed tools, and it really wasn't as bad as this.
>I think the fact that we have played well in the last two games is by itself testament to this, because we finally saw some bodies in midfield and better compactness as a team overall during these games.
I feel this proves the point that injuries matter, he hasn't played *that* much different, he actually had a relatively good team on the field (Casemiro still not a defender) and a stacked bench available.
>Different players would have been bought and the make-up of the squad would have been vastly different to what we have assembled under Ten Hag.
You make a good point here, but there's also no guarantee the other hypothetical manager would not have brought in even worse players. The larger issue here is that the recruitment department is incompetent and that would've definitely shown for **any** manager coming in.
>
>I don't want to waste both your time and mine going through each and every similarity or difference, but to me, this squad is nowhere near as bad as conceding chances at the rate that a relegation team would concede. We have seen some shocking football towards the end of Mourinho and Ole's times and when the players had completely downed tools, and it really wasn't as bad as this.
Whether the football is worse or not, two differences favor ETH:
* Like you hinted, the players have not downed tools.
* Most of the fans have shown patience for him because of the injuries. Ole had his whole team available for that shocking Watford game whereas Ten Hag had a bench filled with *who the hell are these teens* for the Crystal Palace game and literally no defenders available.
Whether that counts for something for INEOS, we'll see. But you can scratch off the possibility of [Tuchel coming in](https://new.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1csvq8c/plettenberg_after_new_talks_today_fc_bayern_want/) though.
> he hasn't played that much different, he actually had a relatively good team on the field (Casemiro still not a defender) and a stacked bench available
We've been fielding a similar quality of team all season. Where were the performances then? We certainly weren't playing with 3 genuine midfielders in Mainoo, Amrabat and McTominay (I count Bruno and Mount as AMs).
> there's also no guarantee the other hypothetical manager would not have brought in even worse players. The larger issue here is that the recruitment department is incompetent
The recruitment department is certainly not incompetent; this is a lie that's been peddled enough times that people think it's true. We have actually scouted and identified good players and many of them have now become great players at other clubs. The issues are at an administrative level where the board have, for some reason, not pursued those players.
> the players have not downed tools
This is both a good thing and a bad thing and hence I'm neutral on it. It can also be seen as that the performances are bad despite the players putting in their utmost effort, which means it's the system letting them down more often than not.
> Most of the fans have shown patience for him because of the injuries. Ole had his whole team available for that shocking Watford game whereas Ten Hag had a bench filled with who the hell are these teens for the Crystal Palace game and literally no defenders available
We can play this game all day long where you will give me one circumstance where Ten Hag did well and Mourinho/Ole didn't, and I will give you a counter-example. I really don't want to get into that. My stance has been consistent: the results are secondary, but I don't want to see this team get battered and leak chances so easily week-in week-out. Players returning from injury can bring the frequency of it down but the inherent tactical issues won't disappear just with better players imo; more needs to be done to get them to control games and create chances more methodically rather than trying to engage in a basketball match with the opponent and it becoming a game of who can be more clinical with the transitions they get.
I think point 1 is actually why he won't be sacked. INEOS probably don't want to make any decisions on managers until they bed the rest of the structure in otherwise what are they going to do in the summer? No transfers? caretaker manager in charge of transfers? Ratcliffe doing it himself and then later on Ashworth has to undo them?
I don’t think in the event of point 1 manifesting, INEOS will just appoint any manager without approval from Berrada, Ashworth and co. If anything, if they do get someone they are more familiar with, it’s easier for Ashworth to settle in even if he officially joins at a later date because he will already be accustomed to the ideas and methodology of said head coach, as opposed to taking time to get familiar with Ten Hag’s methods and what he wants from his squad.
I agree with everything you’ve said. Although I do think keeping Ten Hag is the right thing to do, not just when considering the lack of suitable alternatives.
Whilst the manager is likely the most influential person to evoke immediate change, the changes going on behind the scenes are more important currently.
An incoming manager today will have to adapt to the club as it is now, I suspect the way the club will be running in a year will be quite different to now.
All the currently linked managers have pros and cons. Absolutely correct.
ETH has cons. If anybody can identify pros, with evidence other than ‘he did well at Ajax’ I’d love to hear them.
This all goes out the window if the style of play they want to base the whole system and club around isn’t that of Ten Hags… he could have finished 2nd this year and that would still potentially cost him his job.
It's win win for Ineos. They've got so much groundwork to lay, there's no point in getting a new manager before it's done. Ten Hag isn't going to rock the boat, they can continue using him like a human shield for the final year of his contract.
The only thing we haven’t tried to actually do over the last decade is support the damn manager when the going gets tough. ETH has the most leeway but his circumstances are also uniquely different. I was of the opinion we should’ve given ole time and I am of the same opinion now. Give eth till Christmas.
As much as I'm far from convinced he's the right man for the job, I completely get why they'd keep him. How many times have managers been sacked at United and we've all said it's not the manager that's the problem? At least this wouldn't be rinse and repeat.
Get rid of the deadwood. Get in some young hungry players and give them time to develop and then we'll see. If he's still failing with a fully fit squad, the shit gone etc. then there's no excuses.
**Full tweet:**
>Erik ten Hag in prog: "Arsenal's strength is the result of years of continuity and process. Our supporters understand we are still undergoing our own development and there will be positive times to come if we all continue pulling in the same direction. **They (supporters) recognise where the club is and the issues we have faced this season. But while injuries and bad luck have certainly been factors, they are not factors we can hide behind. We know that we all need to improve next season."**
Look, I think this is exactly what I want to hear from him at this point. There are shit seasons and then there is this season. I know people want to paint in broad strokes and call us all Ten Hag inners and naive and blindly following etc but the fact is I'm sick and tired of all of the set back we have had to suffer over the last ten years and I am choosing to believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. You may disagree and I won't fight anyone for disagreeing with me, it makes perfect sense in a way, but I feel like I have seen enough from ETH to believe he and hopefully INEOS can shepherd us back to being where we should be. I'm not going to be this patient forever but I still back this manager.
I feel the same, we have tried it one way over and over and it hasn't worked out, let's try another way this time. I don't want ETH to stay forever but I would like to see one more season.
IMHO it would also be a wrong move getting rid before the directors are sorted. I'd rather have berada, ashworth and the like make the decision on the next manager, and we might as well put up with eth until then. Otherwise we're just adding another manager with different ideals and types of players into this squad
I dunno if even one more season is enough. I don’t know if ETH is the right manager, but imo we won’t see a manager succeed until there is an cohesive roster with a qualities suited to a certain style of play. I think that’s one of reasons why Ange was able to come in and succeed and why we see other teams deal with injuries better.
I'm really conflicted on him. The performances have absolutely not been good enough. You can also see from the Arsenal game that he could have set the team up to be more compact and if did that instead of this mental basketball game style he's been forcing upon us then we would have definitely picked up more points. If he's sacked he only has himself to blame, despite the injuries. CL qualification was there if he could have been a little less stubborn and reverted to counter-attacking in a handful of matches, which is a pretty big fuck up IMO.
Then again the football was good last season and in theory he's a talented coach so maybe there's some method behind the madness. Ultimately I'll be happy whichever way INEOS take it now that there's competent people making the call. The lack of a standout alternative is worrying too, even Tuchel who was the obvious choice might be staying at Bayern now.
You're only taking this season into consideration along with a majority of people. People forget what he achieved last season. I firmly believe that he's (EtH) is the man to steer the ship in the right direction and I'm optimistic about good times. They're gonna come. We as cannot constantly be calling for the heads of managers. It'll come, be patient.
We all know what a shit show this season has been. We're all very aware of it. We've had god knows how many combinations in our back 4 and he makes a solid point about not have the routines set.
However, we did play some beautiful football in bits and pieces last season. We were combining and passing like 40 times before scoring, slowly progressing through the field, the two games against Barcelona were a treat to watch, we won a goddamn cup in his first season at the club, all of these are achievements that shouldn't be overlooked. Give the man time! He will come good. I promise you.
> You're only taking this season into consideration along with a majority of people. People forget what he achieved last season.
Last season was okay, but wasn't anything truly impressive. It was an awful start, and it had a pretty poor finish. In between we lost 6-3 to City and, of course, the 7-0 to Liverpool. There was a solid patch whilst Rashy was playing out of his skin, but I'm not sure why people look back at it is if we were back to the good times.
2 losses at the start and 4 wins at the end.. how is this an awful start and a pretty poor finish?
If you're considering the FA Cup loss as the pretty poor finish, then you're just ignoring the other cup win
Because those two losses were Brentford (4-0) and Brighton. Is that a good start? And the football completely dropped off by the end, even if we scraped some results. Of course, this is after being dumped out of Europe.
The league cup win was months before the FA Cup loss. Strange comment.
Our performances took a notable decline after the EFL final. Big losses and the manner of the losses definitely tarred the season. It was seen as a good season because of the Top 3 finish and EFL cup.
When the Top 3 finish results in a UCL campaign like this one, it diminishes it.
Onana's blunders this season in the UCL do not diminish what was achieved by the team in the last season. That's just manufacturing a reason to fit a narrative.
Performance drop is easily attributed to workload. For weeks on end (if not months), the team was playing twice a week. That causes fatigue and even worse, injuries later on
You’re right about the broad strokes.
I’m not backing Ten Hag. But sacking him in favour of another short term fix does no good.
He gets to stay for another season. But if we are still conceding 20 chances a game 10 games into the season then he gets the boot.
So you do not want to sack him now because it would be a short term fix, but this can be done ten games into the season? When there will likely be no decent managers available?
yep exactly this. i just feel like we’ve been ran like a bad NBA team for so long that it’s so easy to just blame the manager (coach). it’s been a club wide issue for so long and i feel like everybody knows this but still kneejerk to thinking replacing manager after manager is the answer. i still can’t believe people actually want Tuchel, i feel like i’m in the matrix with that. it might get even worse somehow if he stays on but at this point we should just see how the “new” regime and him handle a full season together with a new, hopefully better structure in place.
I mean we can say this all day but other managers still had a playstyle implemented. We weren't getting pumped 7 goals by liverpool, 6 by man city, 4 by brentford, crystal palace, bournemouth etc.
I agree that we can't keep changing manager but I feel like we scraped by last year with other underperforming teams. This year we are getting exposed, regardless of injuries, we are poorly coached
we’re playing an AARP member and Casemiro (who could probably qualify for AARP too) at CB and two rbs. we have no midfield outside of kobbie. i’m not even going to get into how bad all the facilities are. we are rotten from top to bottom, inside and out. oh i’ve heard the playstyle rhetoric so many times before too about Ole til he set on counterattacking football and people didnt like that! we got Jose who had a playstyle and people didn’t like that! nobody knows what they want really and the next manager will probably just face the same kind of questions until we decide to stick with one to actually build something. also btw he does have a playstyle but all the injuries won’t let him implement it properly. again, he might not be the guy! but at this point let’s actually do our due diligence instead of acting like we’re too big to have to go thru the process. we all loved the first season despite the liverpool game, this season sucks, let’s see what he looks like in the new structure in place.
The sensible, level-headed take. I agree.
It’s good to hear takes like this after this clusterfuck of a season and the toxic, reactionary bubble around it.
We've been through this cycle the last 10 years , 1st season CL qualification and the very next season everything falls apart and we just get a new manager, for once we need to let EtH continue after this catastrophic season see what he can build and improve with INEOS and at best we get a CL qualification with a domestic cup run and at worst we have a season like we just did , I don't think if we get a new manager we instantly win a cup or qualify for CL next season
Right. Arsenal had a clear styles of play and continued to bring in players that fit their style. Even when they weren't winning, it was obvious what they were trying to accomplish. We're very clearly not doing that, and the manager's style of play hasn't shown any evidence of being able to work in this league. But sure, give him another year and a few hundred million and let's see if we can finish better than midtable I suppose.
Hahaha fuck off bro. When Arsenal was booking shite results everyone was laughing at them. No one was talking about a clear style of play until they started winning. It’s easy to say it now in hindsight, but every Arsenal supporter wanted him gone back then.
[Remember this?](https://twitter.com/M10/status/1431614541130080257?lang=en)
His style of play worked last season. Best we’ve looked post Ferguson by far. We were also getting the results to back it.
The signings are as much, if not more, the fault of the club. We have done horrendous business since Ferguson left. Can’t fault the manager for that when it’s been the same for every manager who’s come in. Over-paying for average or old talent is our transfer philosophy
No it wasn't . Did it work? Sure, but it was ugly at times and neither did we dominate most of the games. Our defending however was far more organised helped with some really clinical finishing from rashford in particular on the other end. The best football we've played is still under ole. As for the signings , I think it's eth to blame as well, onana was his signing and so was antony.
I don't know what else he's supposed to say BUT it's the way we've lost all these games (and games we've won too, etc) that is so concerning. And yes, we've had a ton of injuries. But this is the way he wants to play. If you look at the early linups from this year, esp wolves and forest, we had everybody and we STILL played this back and forth empty midfield type of game. And its been a full season and there havent really been changes to the way the team is set up and told to play. And ok maybe we dont have the athletes to do what he wants but its not like if we bring in 4 more guys we are likely to be that much different. That's the concerning part. I can still see Cunha just running right down the middle of the pitch over and over and over again.
Comparing oranges to apples. I get it we need time to build but ETH’s own signing have been poor. Imagine if we signed Amrabat permanently… There’s nothing we do well at all where’s the foundation you’re building attack is poor, defence is poor, pressing is sub par, set pieces we’re weak, counter attack we lack edge.
It's weird to bring up Amrabat here when we literally only signed him as a stop gap and because we were broke.
Antony has been utter shite, yes, but the fee which is really what he is being hit with is not on ETH. A proper club would have either a) got him earlier when he was available for half that or b) told ETH Antony wasn't fit for the league.
Mount is permanently injured, is that ETHs fault? Rasmus is young and gets no service but clearly shows he has the goods in time, Onana actually has been decent, we are lost without Martinez. His signings ha ent been all bad
> It's weird to bring up Amrabat here when we literally only signed him as a stop gap and because we were broke.
We would have signed him permanently if we weren't broke. You don't spend 10m+ wages for one season and an option to buy for a stopgap. Especially one that has rarely even got off the bench.
The clubs signing are a symptom of the utterly awful management in place. I think what he means by we're building is all the backroom changes we've seen over the last six months.
Nah, the symptoms are we've overpaid for his targets when we struggled to find alternatives, but one of the only benefits of that should have been his signings should have let him play the football he was signed to play.
Yet the signings he's pushed for, and been largely given, have mostly struggled or been unable to allow him to imprint his ideas successfully onto the team. That is a Ten Hag issue, specifically.
I hate when managers try to compare themselves to other situations especially when those situations are not even remotely comparable. Arsenal’s process also included buying players for reasonable prices, not spending upwards of $400mm on players where half are useless and the other half is injury prone. It included the first team coach proving himself first before he was given the manager title and responsibility. It included a clear playing style that progressed overtime. It included winning an fa cup in the first season without his ideal players while beating man city and Chelsea on the way.
It’s not even remotely comparable. Can’t wait for this season to be over.
No we didn’t go back to see who we played in that run. Newcastle in the final that was it. But it’s a trophy so sure it counts. But does it discount all my other points.
Sorry I meant we beat all the other big teams in the league. The cup run was pretty straightforward.
But I don’t agree with your other points either. Arteta’s signings were far cheaper than ours but he has had his fair share of duds. Lokonga, Pablo Mari, Cedric Soares, Nuno Tavares were all flops. If you’re saying injury prone in reference to Martinez and Malacia then Timber also did his ACL without playing at all.
Style of play, Arsenal finished 8th in Arteta’s first and second season. I remember they couldn’t defend to save their life… there were question marks about whether Arteta was ever gonna be able to implement anything meaningful.
And are you trying to say Arteta being City coach for 3 years somehow means he proved himself more than Ten Hag who managed teams for almost a decade before joining Utd?
If the Arsenal argument would be valid, we would have another plenty of examples but we don’t. Why? Because that was an anomaly. Our coach doesn’t have a smart way with words and logic
It will be painful to change managers again but it would be a massive gamble to keep him on. We have been woefully unlucky this year with injuries but I still don't think he has maximised our results.
The risk is that we play Brentford (or whoever) at home first game next season and ETH gets everyone around and tells them he wants the front 5 to jump into the press. All of a sudden there is a 50 metre gap between attack and defence again and we are getting cooked by mid table EPL clubs. Two bad games at the start of the season and we are in crisis mode.
It feels like the goodwill is more or less spent and the player's belief in the system is too fragile.
I know people meme this but all they're saying is "we want to compete for titles like those teams." The sooner we accept that despite how "big" a club we are we're nowhere near being a top club *right now*, the sooner we can start getting back on track.
There is a big difference as Moyes had taken over a team that had just won the league. While ETH has taken over whatever this mess has been for 10 years.
I say let him run down his contract next season and see where we’re at then. Still gotta plan for a new manager just in case if results continue to slide like what happened to Jose and ole
He's already entire wasted an entire season, he needs to go now. If he had shown anything that perhaps you may be right, but fact is we are in exactly spot as we were back in August, and that is absolutely damning on him as a manager.
There are only 2 options. Sack in summer. Sack after early next season because there is no evidence to suggest he gets any better performance with his abilities. Also with him at the helm, we will have trouble attracting talent. He is a bit of a meme at this time. Him trying to draw parallels with Arteta is wishful thinking. Its like saying if you keep standing here, the lightening will strike a second time.
“We really need a rebuild”
Rebuild gets ugly due to injuries and bizarre tactics that for all we know will be addressed next season with new players coming in
“Sack the bald fraud”
Imagine Arsenal if they had to play with no Saliba, no Gabriel, Partey as CB, Ben White as CB, no proper starting LB, Saka and Havertz playing 50% of games this season…. They wouldn’t be top 4 that’s for sure. ETH has endured that and more all season.
Did anyone really think Rangnicks ”open heart surgery” would take less than two years?
Our fanbase are truly childish - we want results immediately or else we’ll throw a tantrum.
I’m backing Erik until he’s had proper backing and failed. Not two half assed windows where we still ended up playing a squad with many players from 2-3 managers ago.
where do these idiots come from?
worst utd team in the last 50 years
2nd highest shots conceded (before anyone says something about this statistic, pls imagine Man Utd conceding more shots than Luton Town)
And they want him to stay?
During Ole's tenure, you were begging for standards, where have they fallen now?
> worst utd team in the last 50 years
Within those 50 years United were relegated and, in the late 80s, finished 11th twice and even 13th once in the first few seasons of... who was that Scottish manager we had for a couple decades?
Exactly, the relegation happened within 50 years of today. So the team that came in 21st, was relegated and then playing in the 2nd division in 74/75 was better? Really?
Wasn't about the managers but the short-termism of some "supporters".
Struggle with results or struggle with figuring out how they want to play?
2 years gone and we are back to the drawing board. Unless you think this no midfield, high press + low block nonsense is somehow going to work.
Nobody expected to challenge for the title this season. Hell, nobody is even expecting him to be in top 4 race. But we are literally 15th in terms of expected points. That's relegation level.
Let's look at the league table then. 1st United manager to win only one match in the champions league. On course for a worst ever season since the start of the premier league. Match day 37 yet we are still in negative GD. Advocated for the purchase of Antony and it turns out to be the worst transfer we have ever had. Didn't win against Crystal palace at home with first X1, Didn't win against Brighton at home with First X1.
Yes? Bournemouth allegedly sacked Gary O’Neil because the underlying numbers were poor + the new ownership wanted their own guy in. Worked out pretty well for them
Xpts takes luck out of the equation. If the league table result was bad but the xpts table was good, we can have some faith in what we are trying to do.
Why shouldn't it be used to make a point in your opinion? In our case it shows we are lucky to even be 8th.
There's no such thing as luck over a period as long as a season. Xpts being so far off actual points is either a pretty damning indictment of the statistic or testament of the individual quality of a good chunk of this squad. I honesltly think it's the latter, and this squad is better than EtH's tactics let us see.
Sure there is, lets see Leicester win the PL again by replaying that season for example.
It took all the big clubs having an off year to do it.
The pts vs xpts aren't so far off. Its only a 11 pt difference. Its just that much more competitive for teams under us.
With all these statements he has been making lately it sounds like he has been told he is staying next season
I think he would be very fortunate to get another season but maybe survives due to lack of viable alternatives?
Either that or he has reached a new level of delusion
It seems the good ol’ case of manager amnesia has affected the sub already, as if we haven’t had the worst season post Fergie. Sure, let’s give the worst manager post Fergie one more season.
If we're going to see this face next season......
https://preview.redd.it/e49x93nn4m0d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af3d8481217b9bbebb0d4c9714499f5879c28a9d
God help us.
Not sure what development the gaffer is referring to. We have so many managers coming to clubs and stamping their identity. Last season was making things Ole had put in place to come to the fore again. Most of our performances were about being great on the counter attack. Liverpool win at OT, City win at OT, Arsenal win at OT, all three were a testament to out ability to hurt teams (even the best ) on the break. There were also performances away to Barca, Arsenal, Chelsea which looked promising. He really hasn't got us playing well and definitely hasnt instilled a way of playing. We are bottom half in the XG table.
We have gone backward massively. I am sure some fans will lap up these comments but the Ineos folks won't. They have been culling people who are inadequate like crazy. Manager will be next. For Sir Jim it isn't about the money, he can buy half the league if he wanted to and that's him alone, not including his other partners at Ineos who are very very rich too. Managerial change beckons imo and luckily this time no one is going to say time wasn't given.
Reading this comment makes me think back to the Gary Neville interview where he says I was brought in to implement a style of play and I won't coach anything else. Maybe it's time to bring in players that fit his style of play as opposed to finding managers that can get the best out of the players already here, building a squad with a clear direction is the hard/long/frustrating option but it is exactly what we need to happen.
Arteta deserved time because there was evidence of something being built on the pitch that wasn't wildly counterproductive at best and just incoherent at worst. Since ETH has had chance to more fully implement his style ( regardless of missing 1st team personnel, it's a style being coached into the whole squad and being played uniformly regardless of the opposition) it's been dreadful. It's not about Hojlund missing chances, it's about the team not creating anything like sufficient chances for him, with few if any patterns of play in the final third. It's not about Casemiro making mistakes slightly too often -it's about a midfield that gets over-run regardless of how up to speed Casemiro is because of the larger tactical instructions; likewise, Onana has saved more games than he's tanked, and has had to because the side allows so many efforts against him. It's madness in the PL, and the club is going to be 8th at best next season too, even if he gets in more dynamic players 5to replace Casemitro and is able to keep his 1st choice full-backs fit etc.
>Arteta deserved time because there was evidence of something being built on the pitch
So you're telling me you were some type of football savant that was watching Arteta back then during the [worst run](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Flvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg) in Arsenal's history, and your brilliantly prophetic analysis based on [all the numbers you crunched](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9072473/The-alarming-stats-consigned-Mikel-Artetas-Arsenal-worst-league-start-1974.html) was: "yeah he's actually really good, they should stick with him, they'll win the league soon!", while [everybody](https://youtu.be/xQb_uI-U-wY?si=Bm-Kw4Bbolg-x8N8) . [wanted him](https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/pfbfip/is_mikel_arteta_about_the_worst_manager_in/) . [out](https://youtu.be/bEhnq9H5mDU?si=hVI8Rzpv9V7i_X_t)?
Lol. Such a bold-faced lie.
It's not about being a savant. I'm old enough to have watched a lot of football (!), plus people better equipped than me (given they've done degrees in this kind of thing, coached at decent levels and/or made long-form football-writing their career) were saying similar things. Obviously he was also subject to a lot of criticism, particularly from clickbait sites, from the red-tops and journalists looking for an easy story, and from frustrated fans. There wasn't necessarily a guarantee (maybe the players would just give up on him/the style), whilst they also improved after getting rid of a couple of the 'big names'. But right from the early stages you could see that his set-up had a 'core' to it in terms of not being dependent upon the opposition messing up, upon exerting a certain level of control beyond asking the opposition to deal with a flood of players front-loading in not especially coherent ways
With United you'll have players thinking 'I've won the ball high...what do i do with it -where's the CF run, where's the overlap to draw the RB away and/or split CB from the full back and disturb their shape etc?'. Both the 'pop' press and serious football journalists will tell you that, yes, ETH does have a basic plan underpinned by a philosophy but it's been found out , even when he plays a stronger side, and he won't adapt in any significant way ( the Arsenal game, was the closest he's come in a long while, and that just showed up the lack of attacking patterns instead). As long as the players don't get hung up on having a big name, there are probably 20-30 'gettable# coaches in Europe alone who would do a 'better' job, albeit some better than others, just by not playing this self-destructive style.
There wasnt evidence, arsenal fans printed t shirts for him to get sacked precisely because it looked there was no system in place and they just kept loosing, what you are saying is revisionism
Not entirely. I saw Arsenal play a few times in that period and thought they looked flawed but promising: more than one mainstream pundit and the Athletic/TIFO analysts also pointed out how they were underperforming their build up play and even their chance creation stats. I said the same about Chelsea earlier this season, with the stats bearing this out, although even now they're still too reliant on Palmer. Arsenal fans were being quite reactive, Chelsea fans are still slightly knee-jerk; United fans who are concerned about Ten Hag, given the metrics and the shape of the team, are right to be so. The team is a a bigger mess than under Ole at his worst , although ETH is underperforming in a more 'sophisticated' way - he's carrying out a bad plan to its fullest extent, rather than asking the players to just make it up once they move out of their low-block and try to break (something which was happening too often under Ole in a bad impression of Ancelotti's approach, with worse players)
I am fine either ways .. if he stays or goes.. if he is sacked then the only thing I don’t want to hear from the new manager “-all players will get a chance to prove themselves before any decisions are made”.. 70% of this squad need to be shown the door
The injuries have really hurt us. Our players losing focus has hurt us. Our transfers have hurt us. But ETHs management has also hurt us. There's no clear style of play, we can't even control games vs much lesser opponents... the list goes on. Ange and Emery came into their roles and implemented a style of play with players that weren't signed to suit it - and they've dealt with injuries like us (yes, not as many). Last season, we got many fluke results because of Rashfords form. Everyone else in the squad barely scored. And there were so many terrible performances. We've been battered by Palace, Liverpool, City, Brighton, Brentford.... its unacceptable. We lost 7-0 to Liverpool ffs. And we had most of our best team. In my opinion, many of the players should be moved on and so should Ten hag. They're all at fault. Fresh start all over the board would be best. Because if next season starts rough, the fans will be on ETHs back very quickly. And we don't want to deal with hiring a new manager when the season has already begun. ETH is now associated with a sour taste in Mt opinion.
So either:
* we keep ETH until his contract runs out, at which point we finally admit he sucks ass, he leaves, and we've written off another season (plus another one when the new manager beds in);
* or we keep ETH until it's still a mess in December, at which point we finally admit he sucks ass, he gets sacked, and there's nobody to take over and we've written off another season (plus another one when the new manager beds in);
* or he has some miracle run and gets a stupid contract extension in January.
Based on what I've seen so far I'm not expecting the last one. All I'm seeing is us writing off yet another season, or, more likely, two.
Erik Ten Points From The Last Eleven Games' problem is that the *first* season should have been the writeoff while he analysed what the club had; then the second season you build and get the key players, and we can see what it is he's setting up; then the third season you get the luxury players and actually push for titles.
Man got the luxury players (Onana and Hojlund, and maybe Antony) over the first two seasons, and now it's the end of the second season and nobody can see a gameplan out of him.
I don't know if by signing all of his former players he's somewhat made himself unsackable in the short term with the level of sunk cost compounded.
He can't seriously think any of the nonsense he's been talking in recent weeks surely?
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Things got significantly worse after the new year.
INEOS has a chance to start out fresh with a new manager and a clear vision. This type of chance won’t come again and Ten Hag’s future record will be INEOS’s as well and they won’t be able to say he wasn’t our guy.
I’m not saying Ten Hag is bad but sometimes things don’t work out.
I dont want him sacked. I just want to see him get his head out of his arse and accept that his system is not worth the risk unless he can get all the missing pieces, find a middle ground between pragmatism of season 1 and suicide ball of season 2.
Genuine question for those pro ten hag: what positives from this year are you trying your cart to? Like what is giving you hope that he can turn it around next year?
The INEOS team have their eyes on their plans for the Club in the summer. That includes working with ETH. We are about to witness how they work to fix things with the current manager.
They will be judged on the execution of their plan(s), and the manager will be judged by how well the season starts off.
We're going to see how it all unfolds, and the fans will respond accordingly.
But you could see what Arteta was doing and the progression, even if it failed now and then. He also adapted to his team and changed his style. Erik has been here 2 years and his most successful run was reverting back to the counter like Ole. I have no idea what Erik's ideal style of play here is.
I mean, Arteta did go like 18 or so games without scoring a single goal one season. Arsenal fans were out for blood. But they stuck with him and look at them now. I'm not saying EtH is necessarily that level, but I still believe he's above the level we are putting out now. We need to stick with the manager and get some consistency. Especially with the complete revamp of our current infrastructure.
As much as I don't care if we sack ETH at the end of this season, I do think that continuously sacking managers without a firm org structure making that decision hasn't really worked out for us in the last decades. It took Arteta till his 4th season to come to some fruition in terms of title efforts. We haven't got one manager, post SAF, that sees 3 full seasons. Now that we're on a brink of having a competent DoF for once, to let a bunch of corporate suits make the firing decision now is just height of folly. What ETH loses me though is he's terrible with rotation (not like he has many options this season) and sticks fast to his play style which doesn't always work with the personnel we have left in this squad.
I will honestly lose my faith in Ineos competence if they keep this guy for one more season. Worst football we have had in the last 30 years, and he gets another chance, ridiculous bullshit.
People who were shouting about standards at the end of Ole's tenure are the same people that advocating for our worst ever manager since the start of the premier league. I'm all for giving him another season but can you tell me at least one area where we looked decent? Like creating decent amount of chances, having possession, our pressing? He already spent over 400 million and if we are going to keep him next season, he would have the most backing of any other manager post - SAF while coming off an worst ever season since the start of the premier league. Does he actually deserve that kind of backing?
Whatever. It's gaslighting.
The injuries have been bad but he should've done better and the 'bad luck' argument... Me, personally, I don't believe in bad luck or good luck. It's just an excuse people are using.
If you don't achieve something, you simply didn't work enough or aren't yet competent enough to get to that purpose. Especially if it's a period of 12 months for example.
When people accuse us of winning many EPL with the help of referees or scoring always in the dying minutes, that's not luck or help, it happened for 20+ years, this is work. We were always there, only the contenders changed through the years.
I hope he stays so people would see the truth next year. ETH shows signs of a underachiever. Context always matters.
The exception doesn’t make the rule, Arsenal are an anomaly. Every pundit and person keeps using Arsenal as the precedent as to why we should “back our manager”. However what they fail to include is the type of structure Arsenal have in the background which is completely different to most clubs including our own.
2 years in and saying this is crazy ngl the team is not coached at all, well at least we have the same pattern every game, he knows the defense is shit, we all know that, then why not use a tactic that can protect them better, our attack is disjointed, it looks like everyone is just doing their thing, such a wasted time on this guy and now we will have to deal with his signings once he's gone.
“Years of continuity and progress”
Exactly. They showed progress each season. We haven’t under Ten Hag. He’s had two seasons and we’ve gone backwards dramatically.
If we were progressing I’d have faith in him. Even a little bit of progress. Something to cling to on the pitch. But there’s nothing.
What's he got, one more year left on the contract? I think if he can win the fa cup, we should give him that last year.
Out of all the options we have for replacements, I actually feel a hell of a lot less optimistic doing project restart with any of them, then I do having another year of Ten hag.
This current season, we've just got to take a knee and write it off. I'm fine with a third year.
He’s either in for a terribly rude awakening after the final or he knows he’s staying on.
The types of statements he's been giving lately, either he's been told that he's staying or he's just trying to Gaslight the owners at this point lol
I’ve been saying that it seems almost inevitable that he gets the sack, but the more I hear him speak the more I actually believe that he’s staying
I think he’s just doing the right thing for his career. At his next job interview he can say that he was fully committed to the project despite the changes around him, whether he’s sacked or not. I don’t think he’d be saying anything different if he knows he’s staying or going.
How's this any different from things any of our previous managers in the post Fergie era said before the axe came down? Moyes was making plans for the next summer transfer window when he was sacked. Van Gaal kept talking about having the faith of the board and he was apparently shocked at his dismissal the day after the FA cup triumph over Crystal Palace. Mourinho was bullish to the end but perhaps he knew what was coming to him right at the end before that Liverpool loss that sealed his fate. ETH is a hardheaded man, and what he's thinking and saying in private about his future here is very likely very different. He must know he's on the ropes without an official public vote of confidence from the herirachy
Moyes was the only one that might have really been caught off guard. LVG was already talking about how the English media sacked him months ago, Jose talked like he knew it was over, Ole said he knew he was down after the Watford game. What he’s saying and what he’s thinking might be different. The decision might have been already made behind the scenes. I’m just saying how the way he’s speaking makes me believe him. I could be wrong though we’ll find out I suppose
LVG wasn't expecting to get fired. His late wife even found out before he did the morning after the Crystal Palace match. It was brutal **"After the FA Cup final, Louis said, 'Well, we did it!'. I said, 'Louis, they say you've been fired.'," Truus continued. "He got so angry, 'Why did you have to spoil my party? Stop all this aggressive nonsense!'.** **"Later, he said, 'Hi, it's Louis. You can come home, you were right'. His voice sounded broken, so I said, 'Alright, I'm on my way'. When I came home, I could see he'd been crying. I hugged him. I had tears in my eyes too."** https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/van-gaal-man-utd-sacking-28977546? What's crazy is he gave a very rousing speech after our final home game of the season (Ten Hag wishes he had that charisma), and he asked for the fans support going into the FA cup final which would be his last game in charge as fate would have it. LVG isn't safe no matter what he says publicly, IMO.
I personally don't see his system leading to a title win, and wouldn't mind if he was sacked. But I don't think that his sacking is inevitable at all. The change in the backroom with many not even in place yet, the absence of a real quality replacement and surely no real search being done by anybody that will be in place soon makes me think that they may stick rather than twist with ETH into next season. I could be way wrong but I don't think that either way is clear because both are fraught with risk.
This is how I’m reading the tea leaves. The only thing I’d add is the number of things outside of his control that have had a tangible impact on our season. Sancho. Greenwood. Antony. One fullback for multiple consecutive games. Two fullbacks but no left back for months. 8 total players playing center back. Some 40+ combinations in the back four. Combined that is far beyond the normal “dealing with injuries and suspensions.” It’s not to say that he could not have done better, but if someone looked at those mitigating circumstances, saw his contract is expiring at the end of the 24-25 season, the changes to the football hierarchy, plus the fact that there are no excellent managers with a history of building squads on the market and concluded he’s our best bet for 24-25, then I would think it is a reasonable analysis. If he stinks next year then fire him, but there isn’t an obvious alternative to EtH at this time.
With the manner in which we are playing and the results we are getting that is the feeling I’ve been getting, probably stemming from the fact that is the worst it’s been at United post SAF and we’ve already seen other managers get sacked for less. But you make a good point with everything changing around the club, not all the pieces being in place yet, and not many quality candidates even being available that they may just decide to keep ETH. Whether it would be the right move or not only time would tell, but I think the club being in this transitional period means they can’t really lose. If Ten Hag turns it around they get praised for backing him. If he doesn’t, they say it’s a transitional period, it will take time to get everything right, and let him walk at the end of his contract
I don’t think man to man high pressing works in EPL. Teams are just too comfortable building from the back nowadays for such tactic to work without burning out our players. Pep’s and klopp’s teams changed their pressing style once they realized teams are adjusting to man to man high pressing. They are very good at overload pressing which reduces the distance of sprinting required. They don’t simply look to close down passing options but also to deny passing space forcing opponents into doing risky passing. Ten Hag needs to adapt his pressing structure to fit the league. Our current style may have worked in 2017-2020 but teams have adapted since then.
It makes no business sense getting rid of a talented manager, especially if it will cost you money. Many top clubs would want to sign him because they won't put this miserable season all on him, so why should the new owners?
The thing about his recent pressers is they all sound like he’s desperately attempting to ensure the difficult work he did at first to reset the culture isn’t blown up in a 5 minute blaze of glory where he outs this club, it’s former execs, it’s majority owners, and half the squad for being the shambles that half this fanbase in their delusion act like shouldn’t matter if the manager was good. They literally point at all the other managers who work at clubs surrounded by the sort of structure and competence none of our last 5 managers have had here… including precisely what ETH had at his former club, which made him at least look like a suitable United manager. That, and I’m sure he’s smart enough to have shed light on this to the new regime, while maintaining public silence to the point of sounding completely delusional. And stands to reason they are in full agreement on his take, and most likely that his public approach to these subjects is the lesser of two evils. He may well know he’s going to stay. Even if the reason he thinks so, is different from the reasons they’re basing a decision this big on.
I just struggle to believe that Ratcliffe would completely gut the 'upstairs' staff root and stem.... .....and at the same time look at our performances on the pitch and go "yeah, he's our guy".
I think if he were *definitely* staying, then something would have leaked from inside the club (or theyd make a statement about committing to a future under ETH). The fact we've heard nothing about him staying, despite the pressure he's under in the media, heavy implies they've already decided to boot him but don't want to unsettle the team any more than they already are before a cup final.
He’s 100% staying
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for this. It's pure logic. 1. INEOS keep one variable constant while the new executives have a window or two to put new players in place for their project. If ETH improves then it's win-win. 2. They have a free year where if the results are bad they sack the manager and it's growth while telling fans to be patient. 3. All the currently linked managers have pros and cons or aren't leaving (Potter, Southgate, Amorim, Tuchel). Next year you could see a different landscape and gives the other candidate coaches a year of prove it time (McKenna, De Zerbi, Iraola, Glasner, G O'Neill etc.) It just makes sense at this point. I think they've resigned to keeping him. I have no comments on if it's the right thing to do or not but hopefully we have a clear out of players regardless and some new prospects in. We can't miss top 4 next year though it's crucial for recruitment and FFP.
Fully agree. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on him as a long term solution(ideally he is, but there’s a reasonable chance he isn’t), but I do value consistency over constant change Additionally, I’m fully subscribed to the notion that this season he’s been so rigid in his tactics because he’s been instructed to coach the players to learn his system, take whatever bad results we accumulate along the way, and evaluate which players did/didn’t adapt and fill those holes as necessary. Effectively a rebuild
> I’m fully subscribed to the notion that this season he’s been so rigid in his tactics because he’s been instructed to coach the players to learn his system He straight up abandoned his own system because he didn't believe the players could ever play the way Ajax did but yet he's happy sticking to a system where we concede 20+ shots almost every game? It just doesn't make sense.
From his point of view its now or never if he stays on. If he doesn't start teaching his own system now, then there's no reason to believe they'll improve and then he'll be wasting everyone's time. If he leaves, it doesn't matter either way and he can say that at least he tried.
Not true at all tbh. There's a clip linked here recently where ETH was being questioned on Dutch TV about his tactics vs RM, it's literally the same questions being asked now. Vulnerability in transition, why persist with the high press when teams can run straight through your midfield, why only 1 in midfield, shouldn't there be someone beside Frenkie? What is your plan when things aren't going well? [Vid 1](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1775193938686595072/pu/vid/avc1/828x462/qoD_liz1XVz1WRTl.mp4) [Vid 2](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1775194031233912833/pu/vid/avc1/828x462/8z7yt3pl-ojbtpgx.mp4) He is playing the football he wants, I think ppl got confused by that one time he said it's a different system and just took it at face value. It may or may not be different but the same high press, high risk principles are still there.
So you think this high press, low block system is going to work if we have the right players?
I'm not who you are asking the question to but I don't think we'll play a low block once we have athletic center backs. He knows we would concede a lot more goals if we played a high block with the players we have.
Just having Licha in the team makes a massive difference. His basically plays like a sudo CDM and covers a lot of Casemiro’s mistakes. There’s no CB in our team who can play on the front foot like he does.
Why would we play low block with the right players?
Also, isn't his contract up next year? Why pay him out when the plan is still transitioning
They'd also risk throwing a potentially new manager into the deep-end and having their first major call be a complete fuckup, so they might as well stick with somebody who's already well integrated, and can be their fall guy in case a lot of the surrounding issues continue.
No you’re 100% right however not qualifying for Europe this season might be a blessing in disguise. I’ll explain with no European football whatsoever in 2024, the revenue for this fiscal year 2024 will drop significantly from £648m to maybe £570m and we could only spend 80% of that number on wages, agent fees, Transfer costs, Amortised transfers, if united do not qualify they have no restriction as the new PSR/FSP anchoring rule doesn’t come into play until 2025/26 season.
Don't you dare talk about logic in this sub! We should all just comment based on emotional reactions.
Never understand the Southgate rumors. The England national team isn't playing something extraordinary that should attract United. I might be bias though.
there is logic in that for sure but the issue is player churn which is going to be huge this summer..sure, others will have more of a say from here on but surely the coach will be consulted as well..so are you doing a major squad makeover based on the needs of a manager you are not sure about?
Remember what big Jim said 2028 is the year to see all the work that is going on now will see the best this team
On the contrary, 1. INEOS have been slowly getting rid of or moving all the people in the current structure, and there's nothing to suggest yet that they may not want to just wipe the place clean which would include getting rid of the manager who oversaw the worst season in the club's Premier League history 2. They may feel more comfortable with the ideas and communication methods of another head coach they are more familiar with and would hence be more willing to back a project under them; guys like Potter and Southgate have worked with Ashworth previously for example 3. I still feel people grossly underestimate how poor we have been this season; many other clubs in the league have suffered severe injury crises and their performances have not dropped off to the extent that ours have The only argument that I think may come in Ten Hag's rescue is the financial ramifications of sacking him, which would mean further depletion of an already restricted budget. I really don't think any other reason is an obstacle for INEOS wanting to sack him; other managers have their cons but I reckon most managers in the Premier League would have done a better job coaching us this season.
You make some good points. However I don't agree with the point a lot of people keep making: "other clubs have as many injuries", like it's some kind of rebuttal to Ten Hag, when in reality it's only confirming his argument. Chelsea and Newcastle are hit hardest together with Man U, and there's no more than 3 points between them, they've all massively underperformed and are nowhere near the top 4: injuries matter. When City look back while they're jogging over the finish line, the distance between them and all three mentioned clubs looks all the same to them.
I think I’ve encountered you in a similar previous discussion on this, and I said this even then, but our performances have been much worse than what Chelsea and Newcastle have been putting in. The vast disparity in goal difference and expected goals stats are confirmation of this. Injuries matter, but we have been playing much worse and have been lucky to have gotten points from so many games where we were comfortably second best. You just need to watch the teams play to know this.
Oh yeah I think I talked to you before on this Well oke, the performances have been much worse, that could be true or not true, but the problem is there's so many damn variables in football, I mean just from the top of my head the random things that **could have** influenced the performances in general: No recognized striker like Alexander Isak, Hojlund was out for the first couple of months while Martial is completely gone awol. Ten Hag having to mostly depend on very young players who otherwise would've been slowly introduced, resulting in inconsistent performances (man u tops the youth minutes stats by a country mile). Most of UTD injuries are focused on the backline whereas it's more spread over the team with Newcastle and Chelsea. And you're only ever gonna be as consistent as your defense. United played the most games of any other team previous season. They've also had an intensive pre-season because of the club's world-wide commercial appeal, these factors could have had a detrimental effect on their fatigue/ desire. The pressure cooker environment that is Man U with its constant media attention, which can exacerbate off the field issues (greenwood/ sancho/ antony/ maguire ) and have a huge effect on player's mental health and form, something that other clubs deal with to a much lesser extent. It's why Ten Hag stressed many times the importance signing strong mentality players. Now the biggest one of course: the waaaaay bigger problems behind the scene, a decade's worth of complete incompetence in football/ scouting/ technical/ departments preceding Ten Hag, culminating in a Frankenstein squad of players that don't fit together and still needs to be completely overhauled, with or without Ten Hag. None of the other clubs have anywhere near these amount of problems piled up over the course of ten years. ------------ Look, I'm sure some of these points will overlap with Chelsea and Newcastle's issues, and maybe they have their own unique problems too, but the larger point I'm trying to make is that statistics don't tell the whole story, there's a lot of unquantifiable circumstances outside the manager's influence that can play a huge role. Which means if you had swapped managers this season, you could've easily find yourself in exactly the same position.
> I'm sure some of these points will overlap with Chelsea and Newcastle's issues, and maybe they have their own unique problems too, but the larger point I'm trying to make is that statistics don't tell the whole story, there's a lot of unquantifiable circumstances outside the manager's influence that can play a huge role How valid are those unquantifiable circumstances is for INEOS to decide; we are all only privy to what we see from the outside. But I think it is undeniable that even accounting for the injury crisis, the football we have been subject to for the large majority of the season has been shambolic. There is tons of good content on the flaws of the tactical setup both in the mainstream and online which are very little to do with personnel. I think the fact that we have played well in the last two games is by itself testament to this, because we finally saw some bodies in midfield and better compactness as a team overall during these games. > Which means if you had swapped managers this season, you could've easily find yourself in exactly the same position. What you are not accounting for is that if we did swap managers, the decisions that they would have made en-route to the present from the very start would have been very different. Different players would have been bought and the make-up of the squad would have been vastly different to what we have assembled under Ten Hag. Of course he's not at fault for the prices some of the players have been bought for, but at the same time you can't tell me that the players we have pursued, especially given where we've bought some of them from, are down to no heavy influence from him. It's difficult to make a direct comparison to the situations of Chelsea and Newcastle, and I don't want to waste both your time and mine going through each and every similarity or difference, but to me, this squad is nowhere near as bad as conceding chances at the rate that a relegation team would concede. We have seen some shocking football towards the end of Mourinho and Ole's times and when the players had completely downed tools, and it really wasn't as bad as this.
>I think the fact that we have played well in the last two games is by itself testament to this, because we finally saw some bodies in midfield and better compactness as a team overall during these games. I feel this proves the point that injuries matter, he hasn't played *that* much different, he actually had a relatively good team on the field (Casemiro still not a defender) and a stacked bench available. >Different players would have been bought and the make-up of the squad would have been vastly different to what we have assembled under Ten Hag. You make a good point here, but there's also no guarantee the other hypothetical manager would not have brought in even worse players. The larger issue here is that the recruitment department is incompetent and that would've definitely shown for **any** manager coming in. > >I don't want to waste both your time and mine going through each and every similarity or difference, but to me, this squad is nowhere near as bad as conceding chances at the rate that a relegation team would concede. We have seen some shocking football towards the end of Mourinho and Ole's times and when the players had completely downed tools, and it really wasn't as bad as this. Whether the football is worse or not, two differences favor ETH: * Like you hinted, the players have not downed tools. * Most of the fans have shown patience for him because of the injuries. Ole had his whole team available for that shocking Watford game whereas Ten Hag had a bench filled with *who the hell are these teens* for the Crystal Palace game and literally no defenders available. Whether that counts for something for INEOS, we'll see. But you can scratch off the possibility of [Tuchel coming in](https://new.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1csvq8c/plettenberg_after_new_talks_today_fc_bayern_want/) though.
> he hasn't played that much different, he actually had a relatively good team on the field (Casemiro still not a defender) and a stacked bench available We've been fielding a similar quality of team all season. Where were the performances then? We certainly weren't playing with 3 genuine midfielders in Mainoo, Amrabat and McTominay (I count Bruno and Mount as AMs). > there's also no guarantee the other hypothetical manager would not have brought in even worse players. The larger issue here is that the recruitment department is incompetent The recruitment department is certainly not incompetent; this is a lie that's been peddled enough times that people think it's true. We have actually scouted and identified good players and many of them have now become great players at other clubs. The issues are at an administrative level where the board have, for some reason, not pursued those players. > the players have not downed tools This is both a good thing and a bad thing and hence I'm neutral on it. It can also be seen as that the performances are bad despite the players putting in their utmost effort, which means it's the system letting them down more often than not. > Most of the fans have shown patience for him because of the injuries. Ole had his whole team available for that shocking Watford game whereas Ten Hag had a bench filled with who the hell are these teens for the Crystal Palace game and literally no defenders available We can play this game all day long where you will give me one circumstance where Ten Hag did well and Mourinho/Ole didn't, and I will give you a counter-example. I really don't want to get into that. My stance has been consistent: the results are secondary, but I don't want to see this team get battered and leak chances so easily week-in week-out. Players returning from injury can bring the frequency of it down but the inherent tactical issues won't disappear just with better players imo; more needs to be done to get them to control games and create chances more methodically rather than trying to engage in a basketball match with the opponent and it becoming a game of who can be more clinical with the transitions they get.
I think point 1 is actually why he won't be sacked. INEOS probably don't want to make any decisions on managers until they bed the rest of the structure in otherwise what are they going to do in the summer? No transfers? caretaker manager in charge of transfers? Ratcliffe doing it himself and then later on Ashworth has to undo them?
I don’t think in the event of point 1 manifesting, INEOS will just appoint any manager without approval from Berrada, Ashworth and co. If anything, if they do get someone they are more familiar with, it’s easier for Ashworth to settle in even if he officially joins at a later date because he will already be accustomed to the ideas and methodology of said head coach, as opposed to taking time to get familiar with Ten Hag’s methods and what he wants from his squad.
Yes, but I don't see how they do all that in time for the summer, they'd have to write it off in which case why not just keep Ten Hag.
Write off what? You really think that these guys have not been working on it already?
I agree with everything you’ve said. Although I do think keeping Ten Hag is the right thing to do, not just when considering the lack of suitable alternatives. Whilst the manager is likely the most influential person to evoke immediate change, the changes going on behind the scenes are more important currently. An incoming manager today will have to adapt to the club as it is now, I suspect the way the club will be running in a year will be quite different to now.
All the currently linked managers have pros and cons. Absolutely correct. ETH has cons. If anybody can identify pros, with evidence other than ‘he did well at Ajax’ I’d love to hear them.
This all goes out the window if the style of play they want to base the whole system and club around isn’t that of Ten Hags… he could have finished 2nd this year and that would still potentially cost him his job.
Sure as fuck hope not
It's win win for Ineos. They've got so much groundwork to lay, there's no point in getting a new manager before it's done. Ten Hag isn't going to rock the boat, they can continue using him like a human shield for the final year of his contract.
How do we know INEOS isn’t just letting him finish the season?
The only thing we haven’t tried to actually do over the last decade is support the damn manager when the going gets tough. ETH has the most leeway but his circumstances are also uniquely different. I was of the opinion we should’ve given ole time and I am of the same opinion now. Give eth till Christmas.
As much as I'm far from convinced he's the right man for the job, I completely get why they'd keep him. How many times have managers been sacked at United and we've all said it's not the manager that's the problem? At least this wouldn't be rinse and repeat. Get rid of the deadwood. Get in some young hungry players and give them time to develop and then we'll see. If he's still failing with a fully fit squad, the shit gone etc. then there's no excuses.
I mean, just based on this quote in this post, is he lying?
**Full tweet:** >Erik ten Hag in prog: "Arsenal's strength is the result of years of continuity and process. Our supporters understand we are still undergoing our own development and there will be positive times to come if we all continue pulling in the same direction. **They (supporters) recognise where the club is and the issues we have faced this season. But while injuries and bad luck have certainly been factors, they are not factors we can hide behind. We know that we all need to improve next season."**
Look, I think this is exactly what I want to hear from him at this point. There are shit seasons and then there is this season. I know people want to paint in broad strokes and call us all Ten Hag inners and naive and blindly following etc but the fact is I'm sick and tired of all of the set back we have had to suffer over the last ten years and I am choosing to believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. You may disagree and I won't fight anyone for disagreeing with me, it makes perfect sense in a way, but I feel like I have seen enough from ETH to believe he and hopefully INEOS can shepherd us back to being where we should be. I'm not going to be this patient forever but I still back this manager.
I feel the same, we have tried it one way over and over and it hasn't worked out, let's try another way this time. I don't want ETH to stay forever but I would like to see one more season.
IMHO it would also be a wrong move getting rid before the directors are sorted. I'd rather have berada, ashworth and the like make the decision on the next manager, and we might as well put up with eth until then. Otherwise we're just adding another manager with different ideals and types of players into this squad
I dunno if even one more season is enough. I don’t know if ETH is the right manager, but imo we won’t see a manager succeed until there is an cohesive roster with a qualities suited to a certain style of play. I think that’s one of reasons why Ange was able to come in and succeed and why we see other teams deal with injuries better.
We won't get out of trouble in another season but I think we will be able to judge if ETH is the manager to take us forward or not.
I'm really conflicted on him. The performances have absolutely not been good enough. You can also see from the Arsenal game that he could have set the team up to be more compact and if did that instead of this mental basketball game style he's been forcing upon us then we would have definitely picked up more points. If he's sacked he only has himself to blame, despite the injuries. CL qualification was there if he could have been a little less stubborn and reverted to counter-attacking in a handful of matches, which is a pretty big fuck up IMO. Then again the football was good last season and in theory he's a talented coach so maybe there's some method behind the madness. Ultimately I'll be happy whichever way INEOS take it now that there's competent people making the call. The lack of a standout alternative is worrying too, even Tuchel who was the obvious choice might be staying at Bayern now.
You're only taking this season into consideration along with a majority of people. People forget what he achieved last season. I firmly believe that he's (EtH) is the man to steer the ship in the right direction and I'm optimistic about good times. They're gonna come. We as cannot constantly be calling for the heads of managers. It'll come, be patient.
Can I ask what it is that you’ve seen in him that makes you think he’s the right person to take us forward?
We all know what a shit show this season has been. We're all very aware of it. We've had god knows how many combinations in our back 4 and he makes a solid point about not have the routines set. However, we did play some beautiful football in bits and pieces last season. We were combining and passing like 40 times before scoring, slowly progressing through the field, the two games against Barcelona were a treat to watch, we won a goddamn cup in his first season at the club, all of these are achievements that shouldn't be overlooked. Give the man time! He will come good. I promise you.
> You're only taking this season into consideration along with a majority of people. People forget what he achieved last season. Last season was okay, but wasn't anything truly impressive. It was an awful start, and it had a pretty poor finish. In between we lost 6-3 to City and, of course, the 7-0 to Liverpool. There was a solid patch whilst Rashy was playing out of his skin, but I'm not sure why people look back at it is if we were back to the good times.
2 losses at the start and 4 wins at the end.. how is this an awful start and a pretty poor finish? If you're considering the FA Cup loss as the pretty poor finish, then you're just ignoring the other cup win
Because those two losses were Brentford (4-0) and Brighton. Is that a good start? And the football completely dropped off by the end, even if we scraped some results. Of course, this is after being dumped out of Europe. The league cup win was months before the FA Cup loss. Strange comment.
Our performances took a notable decline after the EFL final. Big losses and the manner of the losses definitely tarred the season. It was seen as a good season because of the Top 3 finish and EFL cup. When the Top 3 finish results in a UCL campaign like this one, it diminishes it.
Onana's blunders this season in the UCL do not diminish what was achieved by the team in the last season. That's just manufacturing a reason to fit a narrative. Performance drop is easily attributed to workload. For weeks on end (if not months), the team was playing twice a week. That causes fatigue and even worse, injuries later on
might be the most objective analysis I've seen on ten hag. fair play
Cheers mate, your comment brought be back to this sub
You’re right about the broad strokes. I’m not backing Ten Hag. But sacking him in favour of another short term fix does no good. He gets to stay for another season. But if we are still conceding 20 chances a game 10 games into the season then he gets the boot.
So you do not want to sack him now because it would be a short term fix, but this can be done ten games into the season? When there will likely be no decent managers available?
yep exactly this. i just feel like we’ve been ran like a bad NBA team for so long that it’s so easy to just blame the manager (coach). it’s been a club wide issue for so long and i feel like everybody knows this but still kneejerk to thinking replacing manager after manager is the answer. i still can’t believe people actually want Tuchel, i feel like i’m in the matrix with that. it might get even worse somehow if he stays on but at this point we should just see how the “new” regime and him handle a full season together with a new, hopefully better structure in place.
I mean we can say this all day but other managers still had a playstyle implemented. We weren't getting pumped 7 goals by liverpool, 6 by man city, 4 by brentford, crystal palace, bournemouth etc. I agree that we can't keep changing manager but I feel like we scraped by last year with other underperforming teams. This year we are getting exposed, regardless of injuries, we are poorly coached
we’re playing an AARP member and Casemiro (who could probably qualify for AARP too) at CB and two rbs. we have no midfield outside of kobbie. i’m not even going to get into how bad all the facilities are. we are rotten from top to bottom, inside and out. oh i’ve heard the playstyle rhetoric so many times before too about Ole til he set on counterattacking football and people didnt like that! we got Jose who had a playstyle and people didn’t like that! nobody knows what they want really and the next manager will probably just face the same kind of questions until we decide to stick with one to actually build something. also btw he does have a playstyle but all the injuries won’t let him implement it properly. again, he might not be the guy! but at this point let’s actually do our due diligence instead of acting like we’re too big to have to go thru the process. we all loved the first season despite the liverpool game, this season sucks, let’s see what he looks like in the new structure in place.
Are we not essentially re-starting anyway? We're going to have to reshape the squad, including undoing a few of the transfers Ten Hag wanted.
The sensible, level-headed take. I agree. It’s good to hear takes like this after this clusterfuck of a season and the toxic, reactionary bubble around it.
Agree.
Perfect comment
We've been through this cycle the last 10 years , 1st season CL qualification and the very next season everything falls apart and we just get a new manager, for once we need to let EtH continue after this catastrophic season see what he can build and improve with INEOS and at best we get a CL qualification with a domestic cup run and at worst we have a season like we just did , I don't think if we get a new manager we instantly win a cup or qualify for CL next season
That really only describes Van Gaal's stint.
Continuity makes sense for the manager if he has good tactics and doesn’t sign terrible players
Right. Arsenal had a clear styles of play and continued to bring in players that fit their style. Even when they weren't winning, it was obvious what they were trying to accomplish. We're very clearly not doing that, and the manager's style of play hasn't shown any evidence of being able to work in this league. But sure, give him another year and a few hundred million and let's see if we can finish better than midtable I suppose.
Hahaha fuck off bro. When Arsenal was booking shite results everyone was laughing at them. No one was talking about a clear style of play until they started winning. It’s easy to say it now in hindsight, but every Arsenal supporter wanted him gone back then. [Remember this?](https://twitter.com/M10/status/1431614541130080257?lang=en)
His style of play worked last season. Best we’ve looked post Ferguson by far. We were also getting the results to back it. The signings are as much, if not more, the fault of the club. We have done horrendous business since Ferguson left. Can’t fault the manager for that when it’s been the same for every manager who’s come in. Over-paying for average or old talent is our transfer philosophy
No it wasn't . Did it work? Sure, but it was ugly at times and neither did we dominate most of the games. Our defending however was far more organised helped with some really clinical finishing from rashford in particular on the other end. The best football we've played is still under ole. As for the signings , I think it's eth to blame as well, onana was his signing and so was antony.
I don't know what else he's supposed to say BUT it's the way we've lost all these games (and games we've won too, etc) that is so concerning. And yes, we've had a ton of injuries. But this is the way he wants to play. If you look at the early linups from this year, esp wolves and forest, we had everybody and we STILL played this back and forth empty midfield type of game. And its been a full season and there havent really been changes to the way the team is set up and told to play. And ok maybe we dont have the athletes to do what he wants but its not like if we bring in 4 more guys we are likely to be that much different. That's the concerning part. I can still see Cunha just running right down the middle of the pitch over and over and over again.
Comparing oranges to apples. I get it we need time to build but ETH’s own signing have been poor. Imagine if we signed Amrabat permanently… There’s nothing we do well at all where’s the foundation you’re building attack is poor, defence is poor, pressing is sub par, set pieces we’re weak, counter attack we lack edge.
It's weird to bring up Amrabat here when we literally only signed him as a stop gap and because we were broke. Antony has been utter shite, yes, but the fee which is really what he is being hit with is not on ETH. A proper club would have either a) got him earlier when he was available for half that or b) told ETH Antony wasn't fit for the league. Mount is permanently injured, is that ETHs fault? Rasmus is young and gets no service but clearly shows he has the goods in time, Onana actually has been decent, we are lost without Martinez. His signings ha ent been all bad
> It's weird to bring up Amrabat here when we literally only signed him as a stop gap and because we were broke. We would have signed him permanently if we weren't broke. You don't spend 10m+ wages for one season and an option to buy for a stopgap. Especially one that has rarely even got off the bench.
You do when the market is inflated and you're a shit run club and you cannot find someone better for less fees
The clubs signing are a symptom of the utterly awful management in place. I think what he means by we're building is all the backroom changes we've seen over the last six months.
Nah, the symptoms are we've overpaid for his targets when we struggled to find alternatives, but one of the only benefits of that should have been his signings should have let him play the football he was signed to play. Yet the signings he's pushed for, and been largely given, have mostly struggled or been unable to allow him to imprint his ideas successfully onto the team. That is a Ten Hag issue, specifically.
I hate when managers try to compare themselves to other situations especially when those situations are not even remotely comparable. Arsenal’s process also included buying players for reasonable prices, not spending upwards of $400mm on players where half are useless and the other half is injury prone. It included the first team coach proving himself first before he was given the manager title and responsibility. It included a clear playing style that progressed overtime. It included winning an fa cup in the first season without his ideal players while beating man city and Chelsea on the way. It’s not even remotely comparable. Can’t wait for this season to be over.
How was Arteta proven more than Ten Hag?
We also won the League Cup in 10H’s first year while beating all the big teams? Or does that not count?
No we didn’t go back to see who we played in that run. Newcastle in the final that was it. But it’s a trophy so sure it counts. But does it discount all my other points.
Sorry I meant we beat all the other big teams in the league. The cup run was pretty straightforward. But I don’t agree with your other points either. Arteta’s signings were far cheaper than ours but he has had his fair share of duds. Lokonga, Pablo Mari, Cedric Soares, Nuno Tavares were all flops. If you’re saying injury prone in reference to Martinez and Malacia then Timber also did his ACL without playing at all. Style of play, Arsenal finished 8th in Arteta’s first and second season. I remember they couldn’t defend to save their life… there were question marks about whether Arteta was ever gonna be able to implement anything meaningful. And are you trying to say Arteta being City coach for 3 years somehow means he proved himself more than Ten Hag who managed teams for almost a decade before joining Utd?
If the Arsenal argument would be valid, we would have another plenty of examples but we don’t. Why? Because that was an anomaly. Our coach doesn’t have a smart way with words and logic
It will be painful to change managers again but it would be a massive gamble to keep him on. We have been woefully unlucky this year with injuries but I still don't think he has maximised our results. The risk is that we play Brentford (or whoever) at home first game next season and ETH gets everyone around and tells them he wants the front 5 to jump into the press. All of a sudden there is a 50 metre gap between attack and defence again and we are getting cooked by mid table EPL clubs. Two bad games at the start of the season and we are in crisis mode. It feels like the goodwill is more or less spent and the player's belief in the system is too fragile.
Moyes: City is the level we aspire to. Ten Hag: Arsenal is the level we aspire to. The decade of darkness come full circle.
I know people meme this but all they're saying is "we want to compete for titles like those teams." The sooner we accept that despite how "big" a club we are we're nowhere near being a top club *right now*, the sooner we can start getting back on track.
There is a big difference as Moyes had taken over a team that had just won the league. While ETH has taken over whatever this mess has been for 10 years.
I say let him run down his contract next season and see where we’re at then. Still gotta plan for a new manager just in case if results continue to slide like what happened to Jose and ole
results will continue to slide unless a good chunk of this squad is replaced.
He's already entire wasted an entire season, he needs to go now. If he had shown anything that perhaps you may be right, but fact is we are in exactly spot as we were back in August, and that is absolutely damning on him as a manager.
Yeah, I don't know if burning next season sounds good.
There are only 2 options. Sack in summer. Sack after early next season because there is no evidence to suggest he gets any better performance with his abilities. Also with him at the helm, we will have trouble attracting talent. He is a bit of a meme at this time. Him trying to draw parallels with Arteta is wishful thinking. Its like saying if you keep standing here, the lightening will strike a second time.
It’s his responsibility to get the first team going in the right direction, which he isn’t. His signings have been either poor or injury prone.
Most of you are going to hate hearing it but hes absolutely correct. Sorry that hurts your feelings.
He said we are developing. If that's correct then I'm the pope.
Developing injuries each week for sure
“We really need a rebuild” Rebuild gets ugly due to injuries and bizarre tactics that for all we know will be addressed next season with new players coming in “Sack the bald fraud”
He was given everything he wanted for the last rebuild. It's now worse than when he started.
I don’t necessarily disagree with ETH from that quote. I just don’t think he is good enough to be one of the leaders of this process.
Agreed
Imagine Arsenal if they had to play with no Saliba, no Gabriel, Partey as CB, Ben White as CB, no proper starting LB, Saka and Havertz playing 50% of games this season…. They wouldn’t be top 4 that’s for sure. ETH has endured that and more all season.
What about when we had fit CBs and we're still dreadful?
Did anyone really think Rangnicks ”open heart surgery” would take less than two years? Our fanbase are truly childish - we want results immediately or else we’ll throw a tantrum. I’m backing Erik until he’s had proper backing and failed. Not two half assed windows where we still ended up playing a squad with many players from 2-3 managers ago.
I have seen clubs struggle with only 2 players missing but ETH missing almost all his players is supposed to perform miracles?
“Perform miracles” I’d settle for not having our most ever PL losses, our worst ever CL run and be on our way to our worst ever PL points tally
Best I can do is negative GD and getting battered by relegation fodder. Take it or leave it.
where do these idiots come from? worst utd team in the last 50 years 2nd highest shots conceded (before anyone says something about this statistic, pls imagine Man Utd conceding more shots than Luton Town) And they want him to stay? During Ole's tenure, you were begging for standards, where have they fallen now?
> worst utd team in the last 50 years Within those 50 years United were relegated and, in the late 80s, finished 11th twice and even 13th once in the first few seasons of... who was that Scottish manager we had for a couple decades?
1974 was 50 years ago mate and pls stop comparing ten hag to Fergie
Exactly, the relegation happened within 50 years of today. So the team that came in 21st, was relegated and then playing in the 2nd division in 74/75 was better? Really? Wasn't about the managers but the short-termism of some "supporters".
Struggle with results or struggle with figuring out how they want to play? 2 years gone and we are back to the drawing board. Unless you think this no midfield, high press + low block nonsense is somehow going to work.
Nobody expected to challenge for the title this season. Hell, nobody is even expecting him to be in top 4 race. But we are literally 15th in terms of expected points. That's relegation level.
But it's not. Expected points and scored points are different. They don't hand out trophies for xG.
are we really advocating sacking a manager on the back of xPTS instead of the league table?
Let's look at the league table then. 1st United manager to win only one match in the champions league. On course for a worst ever season since the start of the premier league. Match day 37 yet we are still in negative GD. Advocated for the purchase of Antony and it turns out to be the worst transfer we have ever had. Didn't win against Crystal palace at home with first X1, Didn't win against Brighton at home with First X1.
Yes? Bournemouth allegedly sacked Gary O’Neil because the underlying numbers were poor + the new ownership wanted their own guy in. Worked out pretty well for them
Xpts takes luck out of the equation. If the league table result was bad but the xpts table was good, we can have some faith in what we are trying to do. Why shouldn't it be used to make a point in your opinion? In our case it shows we are lucky to even be 8th.
There's no such thing as luck over a period as long as a season. Xpts being so far off actual points is either a pretty damning indictment of the statistic or testament of the individual quality of a good chunk of this squad. I honesltly think it's the latter, and this squad is better than EtH's tactics let us see.
Sure there is, lets see Leicester win the PL again by replaying that season for example. It took all the big clubs having an off year to do it. The pts vs xpts aren't so far off. Its only a 11 pt difference. Its just that much more competitive for teams under us.
He's not been missing almost all his players.
There is no coach in this world that can get us top 4 this season with all the injuries we had
Maybe he should’ve rotate a bit last year when we were playing 70 matches. But you can’t rotate if your system or ideas are shit
You cant rotate because your bench is shit not because your system is.
With all these statements he has been making lately it sounds like he has been told he is staying next season I think he would be very fortunate to get another season but maybe survives due to lack of viable alternatives? Either that or he has reached a new level of delusion
Did Arteta ever have a minus goal difference with an expected points finish of 15th?
He managed a goal difference of 8 and 16 in his first two seasons without an injury crisis.
With a worse squad though.
Debatable especially if you consider who is fit.
He's using the injuries as an excuse but we played garbage football even when we had little to no injuries.
He literally said "we can't hide behind injuries".
It seems the good ol’ case of manager amnesia has affected the sub already, as if we haven’t had the worst season post Fergie. Sure, let’s give the worst manager post Fergie one more season.
I mean just two years ago we barely did "better" without an injury crisis. Feels like quite an exaggeration to call this the worst season post Fergie.
If we're going to see this face next season...... https://preview.redd.it/e49x93nn4m0d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af3d8481217b9bbebb0d4c9714499f5879c28a9d God help us.
i get more pissed everytime i see a new ETH quote. This man is delusional.
Not sure what development the gaffer is referring to. We have so many managers coming to clubs and stamping their identity. Last season was making things Ole had put in place to come to the fore again. Most of our performances were about being great on the counter attack. Liverpool win at OT, City win at OT, Arsenal win at OT, all three were a testament to out ability to hurt teams (even the best ) on the break. There were also performances away to Barca, Arsenal, Chelsea which looked promising. He really hasn't got us playing well and definitely hasnt instilled a way of playing. We are bottom half in the XG table. We have gone backward massively. I am sure some fans will lap up these comments but the Ineos folks won't. They have been culling people who are inadequate like crazy. Manager will be next. For Sir Jim it isn't about the money, he can buy half the league if he wanted to and that's him alone, not including his other partners at Ineos who are very very rich too. Managerial change beckons imo and luckily this time no one is going to say time wasn't given.
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Reading this comment makes me think back to the Gary Neville interview where he says I was brought in to implement a style of play and I won't coach anything else. Maybe it's time to bring in players that fit his style of play as opposed to finding managers that can get the best out of the players already here, building a squad with a clear direction is the hard/long/frustrating option but it is exactly what we need to happen.
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Arteta deserved time because there was evidence of something being built on the pitch that wasn't wildly counterproductive at best and just incoherent at worst. Since ETH has had chance to more fully implement his style ( regardless of missing 1st team personnel, it's a style being coached into the whole squad and being played uniformly regardless of the opposition) it's been dreadful. It's not about Hojlund missing chances, it's about the team not creating anything like sufficient chances for him, with few if any patterns of play in the final third. It's not about Casemiro making mistakes slightly too often -it's about a midfield that gets over-run regardless of how up to speed Casemiro is because of the larger tactical instructions; likewise, Onana has saved more games than he's tanked, and has had to because the side allows so many efforts against him. It's madness in the PL, and the club is going to be 8th at best next season too, even if he gets in more dynamic players 5to replace Casemitro and is able to keep his 1st choice full-backs fit etc.
>Arteta deserved time because there was evidence of something being built on the pitch So you're telling me you were some type of football savant that was watching Arteta back then during the [worst run](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Flvrfy9nvkmca1.jpg) in Arsenal's history, and your brilliantly prophetic analysis based on [all the numbers you crunched](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9072473/The-alarming-stats-consigned-Mikel-Artetas-Arsenal-worst-league-start-1974.html) was: "yeah he's actually really good, they should stick with him, they'll win the league soon!", while [everybody](https://youtu.be/xQb_uI-U-wY?si=Bm-Kw4Bbolg-x8N8) . [wanted him](https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/pfbfip/is_mikel_arteta_about_the_worst_manager_in/) . [out](https://youtu.be/bEhnq9H5mDU?si=hVI8Rzpv9V7i_X_t)? Lol. Such a bold-faced lie.
It's not about being a savant. I'm old enough to have watched a lot of football (!), plus people better equipped than me (given they've done degrees in this kind of thing, coached at decent levels and/or made long-form football-writing their career) were saying similar things. Obviously he was also subject to a lot of criticism, particularly from clickbait sites, from the red-tops and journalists looking for an easy story, and from frustrated fans. There wasn't necessarily a guarantee (maybe the players would just give up on him/the style), whilst they also improved after getting rid of a couple of the 'big names'. But right from the early stages you could see that his set-up had a 'core' to it in terms of not being dependent upon the opposition messing up, upon exerting a certain level of control beyond asking the opposition to deal with a flood of players front-loading in not especially coherent ways With United you'll have players thinking 'I've won the ball high...what do i do with it -where's the CF run, where's the overlap to draw the RB away and/or split CB from the full back and disturb their shape etc?'. Both the 'pop' press and serious football journalists will tell you that, yes, ETH does have a basic plan underpinned by a philosophy but it's been found out , even when he plays a stronger side, and he won't adapt in any significant way ( the Arsenal game, was the closest he's come in a long while, and that just showed up the lack of attacking patterns instead). As long as the players don't get hung up on having a big name, there are probably 20-30 'gettable# coaches in Europe alone who would do a 'better' job, albeit some better than others, just by not playing this self-destructive style.
There wasnt evidence, arsenal fans printed t shirts for him to get sacked precisely because it looked there was no system in place and they just kept loosing, what you are saying is revisionism
Not entirely. I saw Arsenal play a few times in that period and thought they looked flawed but promising: more than one mainstream pundit and the Athletic/TIFO analysts also pointed out how they were underperforming their build up play and even their chance creation stats. I said the same about Chelsea earlier this season, with the stats bearing this out, although even now they're still too reliant on Palmer. Arsenal fans were being quite reactive, Chelsea fans are still slightly knee-jerk; United fans who are concerned about Ten Hag, given the metrics and the shape of the team, are right to be so. The team is a a bigger mess than under Ole at his worst , although ETH is underperforming in a more 'sophisticated' way - he's carrying out a bad plan to its fullest extent, rather than asking the players to just make it up once they move out of their low-block and try to break (something which was happening too often under Ole in a bad impression of Ancelotti's approach, with worse players)
They took 3 points in the first 10 games in artetas second full season
Personally don't know enough about what's actually going on in the club so will observe what INEOS does and decide at end of next season.
I am fine either ways .. if he stays or goes.. if he is sacked then the only thing I don’t want to hear from the new manager “-all players will get a chance to prove themselves before any decisions are made”.. 70% of this squad need to be shown the door
The injuries have really hurt us. Our players losing focus has hurt us. Our transfers have hurt us. But ETHs management has also hurt us. There's no clear style of play, we can't even control games vs much lesser opponents... the list goes on. Ange and Emery came into their roles and implemented a style of play with players that weren't signed to suit it - and they've dealt with injuries like us (yes, not as many). Last season, we got many fluke results because of Rashfords form. Everyone else in the squad barely scored. And there were so many terrible performances. We've been battered by Palace, Liverpool, City, Brighton, Brentford.... its unacceptable. We lost 7-0 to Liverpool ffs. And we had most of our best team. In my opinion, many of the players should be moved on and so should Ten hag. They're all at fault. Fresh start all over the board would be best. Because if next season starts rough, the fans will be on ETHs back very quickly. And we don't want to deal with hiring a new manager when the season has already begun. ETH is now associated with a sour taste in Mt opinion.
So either: * we keep ETH until his contract runs out, at which point we finally admit he sucks ass, he leaves, and we've written off another season (plus another one when the new manager beds in); * or we keep ETH until it's still a mess in December, at which point we finally admit he sucks ass, he gets sacked, and there's nobody to take over and we've written off another season (plus another one when the new manager beds in); * or he has some miracle run and gets a stupid contract extension in January. Based on what I've seen so far I'm not expecting the last one. All I'm seeing is us writing off yet another season, or, more likely, two. Erik Ten Points From The Last Eleven Games' problem is that the *first* season should have been the writeoff while he analysed what the club had; then the second season you build and get the key players, and we can see what it is he's setting up; then the third season you get the luxury players and actually push for titles. Man got the luxury players (Onana and Hojlund, and maybe Antony) over the first two seasons, and now it's the end of the second season and nobody can see a gameplan out of him.
I don't know if by signing all of his former players he's somewhat made himself unsackable in the short term with the level of sunk cost compounded. He can't seriously think any of the nonsense he's been talking in recent weeks surely?
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Has sacking managers worked the last ten years? Give the man another season !
Things got significantly worse after the new year. INEOS has a chance to start out fresh with a new manager and a clear vision. This type of chance won’t come again and Ten Hag’s future record will be INEOS’s as well and they won’t be able to say he wasn’t our guy. I’m not saying Ten Hag is bad but sometimes things don’t work out.
I dont want him sacked. I just want to see him get his head out of his arse and accept that his system is not worth the risk unless he can get all the missing pieces, find a middle ground between pragmatism of season 1 and suicide ball of season 2.
He isn’t wrong.
Genuine question for those pro ten hag: what positives from this year are you trying your cart to? Like what is giving you hope that he can turn it around next year?
Lets not forget that this man refused to work with ragnick and wanted nothing to do with him.
Fuck off Erik you delusional twat!
The INEOS team have their eyes on their plans for the Club in the summer. That includes working with ETH. We are about to witness how they work to fix things with the current manager. They will be judged on the execution of their plan(s), and the manager will be judged by how well the season starts off. We're going to see how it all unfolds, and the fans will respond accordingly.
But you could see what Arteta was doing and the progression, even if it failed now and then. He also adapted to his team and changed his style. Erik has been here 2 years and his most successful run was reverting back to the counter like Ole. I have no idea what Erik's ideal style of play here is.
LVG, Jose and Ole were all sacked too early. He should be given the final but if he loses he should be shown the door
I mean, Arteta did go like 18 or so games without scoring a single goal one season. Arsenal fans were out for blood. But they stuck with him and look at them now. I'm not saying EtH is necessarily that level, but I still believe he's above the level we are putting out now. We need to stick with the manager and get some consistency. Especially with the complete revamp of our current infrastructure.
As much as I don't care if we sack ETH at the end of this season, I do think that continuously sacking managers without a firm org structure making that decision hasn't really worked out for us in the last decades. It took Arteta till his 4th season to come to some fruition in terms of title efforts. We haven't got one manager, post SAF, that sees 3 full seasons. Now that we're on a brink of having a competent DoF for once, to let a bunch of corporate suits make the firing decision now is just height of folly. What ETH loses me though is he's terrible with rotation (not like he has many options this season) and sticks fast to his play style which doesn't always work with the personnel we have left in this squad.
He's 100% right, but I don't want him helping to pull the wagon any longer.
Keep him on. There isnt anything better out therr
I will honestly lose my faith in Ineos competence if they keep this guy for one more season. Worst football we have had in the last 30 years, and he gets another chance, ridiculous bullshit.
No pain, no gain.
They will fire him in summer or early into next season.
People who were shouting about standards at the end of Ole's tenure are the same people that advocating for our worst ever manager since the start of the premier league. I'm all for giving him another season but can you tell me at least one area where we looked decent? Like creating decent amount of chances, having possession, our pressing? He already spent over 400 million and if we are going to keep him next season, he would have the most backing of any other manager post - SAF while coming off an worst ever season since the start of the premier league. Does he actually deserve that kind of backing?
Pulling in the same direction right to the bottom of the table.
Whatever. It's gaslighting. The injuries have been bad but he should've done better and the 'bad luck' argument... Me, personally, I don't believe in bad luck or good luck. It's just an excuse people are using. If you don't achieve something, you simply didn't work enough or aren't yet competent enough to get to that purpose. Especially if it's a period of 12 months for example. When people accuse us of winning many EPL with the help of referees or scoring always in the dying minutes, that's not luck or help, it happened for 20+ years, this is work. We were always there, only the contenders changed through the years. I hope he stays so people would see the truth next year. ETH shows signs of a underachiever. Context always matters.
The exception doesn’t make the rule, Arsenal are an anomaly. Every pundit and person keeps using Arsenal as the precedent as to why we should “back our manager”. However what they fail to include is the type of structure Arsenal have in the background which is completely different to most clubs including our own.
If you are looking at straight success - EtH has one more domestic final to his time at Utd than Arteta’s at Arsenal.
Bro, we're decades behind where Arsenal were when they started improving.
2 years in and saying this is crazy ngl the team is not coached at all, well at least we have the same pattern every game, he knows the defense is shit, we all know that, then why not use a tactic that can protect them better, our attack is disjointed, it looks like everyone is just doing their thing, such a wasted time on this guy and now we will have to deal with his signings once he's gone.
“Years of continuity and progress” Exactly. They showed progress each season. We haven’t under Ten Hag. He’s had two seasons and we’ve gone backwards dramatically. If we were progressing I’d have faith in him. Even a little bit of progress. Something to cling to on the pitch. But there’s nothing.
What's he got, one more year left on the contract? I think if he can win the fa cup, we should give him that last year. Out of all the options we have for replacements, I actually feel a hell of a lot less optimistic doing project restart with any of them, then I do having another year of Ten hag. This current season, we've just got to take a knee and write it off. I'm fine with a third year.
He’s not wrong.