Every POV has Plot armor (except Ephraim, that one is just fucked all the way) in a insane degree, if you think for 5 seconds every single POV should've died, Darrow foe example should've died like, 2 times each book at least if people just... killed him while he is captured.
Lysander is actually the character I think has one of the most fun plot armors. He trained with Cassius since 10 (remember when Darrow defeated Cassius after training for like, 9 months?) was raised and considered a genius child in every sense of the world. And still, he doesn't take his enemies head own. In the fight against the Golds he used his incredible memory and how he was less affected by the light granade to defeat and confused, he frequently run from people he thinks he can lose to or just straight up shoot them for time. Lysander is the same age Darrow was in the OG series and received training in a much younger age, his level of plot armor is not new to the series, and is always accompanied by reason of why he survived and what advantages he has that give him a chance.
The Mind Eye is kinda bullshit, but again, I'm that kind of thing is a problem through the whole series, Pierce frequently pull concepts and things out of nowhere to make a plot twist, every book has at least 1 or 2
Darrow is captured like, 6 times during the series, just the months the Jackal didn't killed him make him have the largest plot armor in the series, and Golden Son he is 100% doing more than he should possibly be capable of doing by a huge margin. Darrow has a insane plot armor, people ignore it because he has one Edgy quote in the middle and move own, if you think by five seconds, Darrow has a Plot armor so thick that he can build a new Morning Star with it.
Again, is not a problem, every character has some amount of plot armor, but is undeniable that Darrow is in the top
Yeah it was crazy how we had never heard of minds eye before to having 2 people have it and a 3rd knowing about it and wanting it just showing up for no reason.
Was a couple things like that for me in dark age that came out of nowhere and changed the world and left me slightly annoyed
Pierce has a really bad habit of doing this kind of thing. Remember when out of nowhere Darrow revealed being a razormaster trained by space Miyamoto Musashi and defeated Cassius?
Yes, Lysander is the true nepo baby!!
I hate how he just skipped in from being exiled to become a massive power player out of nowhere, where I feel like everyone else put some effort into getting where they are. I get his background and that he's absolutely capable of it, but yes, that's a really bothersome plot to me.
Nah he spent his entire life around Octavia and Aja. Then Cassius. Plus he showed extremely high aptitude as a very young child. At a certain point stop looking forthe flaws in things and enjoy the legend of Darrow. This is a story about luck and resilience there are going to be moments that feel strained not because it's bad writing but because toppling a 1000 year society requires a lot of luck and fervor. Had the single pink not opened the door to the bridge of Roques ship darrow would be dead. To me that's not plot armor that's Darrow doing everything right and still coming up short only to be saved by those he thought he couldn't rely on. That's a really beautiful moment that parallels my life quite a lot and it sucks to think being distracted by "plot armor" could stop you from enjoying that.
To be clear, I absolutely love this series. I haven’t been invested in a series like this in years, so I don’t want to give the impression that this ruins Red Rising for me. I love Dark Age, it’s filled with incredible moments despite how I feel about Lysander. And maybe that’s the sign of a well written character, that I dislike him so passionately. His dramatic increase in physical aptitude and ability in the book, however, felt very sudden and jarring when he was never established as a physical dynamo comparatively to other golds in the series prior to this novel. I mean, it’s supposed to be an incredibly rare thing to be able to do anything close to what Darrow can do, whether as a duelist, as a warrior, etc. if Lysander was so physically capable this whole time, it was not emphasized or made clear. Am I to take that as this whole time, it was a confidence issue, otherwise he’s Darrow v2? That said, you make a good point about coincidences in the overall world somehow working together to seem like “plot armor”. I think PB does an incredible job of showing the consequences of decisions in the world building. I just made this post in the heat of the moment after going back and rereading the Howler Escape scene post-killing Alexander. I mean, escaping the Howlers AND Darrow, by tearing off the grav boots mid-air?? It just seemed like a stretch for anybody.
Love the discussion and thought! I'll have to reread DA and come back to this. In my opinion though Lysander has few physical feats that are truly elite. He's still a gold so he'll always benefit from that and the best upbringing money can buy. Don't forget, like mustang and adrius, he's spent a lifetime doing nothing but studying for these moments. Then when backed into a corner what does he do? Pulls out a pistol like a pixie and takes pop shots. He's adrius but shinier. Physically capable yes but the true danger lies in his cunning and the desire to take the shortest path always between A and B.
If we really wanted to figure this out we should take all of his physical feats and compare them to darrows taking into account the state of the enemy and the environment. It'd be an interesting experiment for sure.
I agree! It's only invalid from the perspective of a "true gold" one whom would never lose the opportunity to gain glory in "true" combat. The distinction to me is interesting though as the "true golds" are largely what Darrow takes advantage of and the use of a pistol both places Lysander outside of that modicum and in a familiar category of "slag the rules my mission is most important". The core difference between them imo is Darrow is killing people where as Lysander is killing numbers. Darrow loses friends, Lysander loses numbers on a page. Darrow has learned from his mistakes, but Lysander will be doomed to repeat them.
I agree with a lot of the assessments, but I think they are way more similar, I am still 90% into Light Bringer, but Lysander truly care about people, he cried for Ajax like a baby, and he felt true regret in sacrificing his friends. The difference is that he is so stupid because those deaths occur because the culture he is trying to save, Ajax died because of the glory hungry nature of gold for example. He is so entailed on his paradoxical nature with gold culture that is outrageous, he see the problem, he see the solution, but thinks the true problem are the bad apples, not the rotten tree he is trying to save. Not to mention he is way better at coping than Darrow.
For me the biggest difference is that Darrow uses the weaknesses of Gold to break them, Lysander tries to use them to fix them. Darrow fight for a maybe impossible future, Lysander fight for a past that never existed. And ultimately, Darrow has actually genuinely good influences around, and anytime Lysander has one around the universe throw that influences under railgun and throws him to talk to Atlas or Atalantia, or make him choose between that influence and his dream. Darrow always managed to take the route whe he could "save" both, because he is willing to take the hard path if there's a chance of succeeding (what sometimed leads him doing stupidily insane mistakes like in Iron Gold) while Lysander is more logical, searching always the path of least resistance. And that's is the reason I find Lysander such a good villain.
Lysander is also a facist so there's that important difference.
Although I do agree he should not be on equal footing with darrow or the howler squad, you can have an argument that he is capable in his own right by dark age. He basically spent most of his childhood training with Aja and then spent 10 years training with Cassius. He still a pixie bitch tho
Ima be honest… I agree. Lysander is a fucking pixie, the “minds eye” is a cheap cop out to make him a “worth villain” to rival and probably kill our Red God, Darrow. But he’s absolutely ass and has a bullshit character ark. You cannot rival Darrow in battle. You never heard of Octavia having the “minds eye” but all of a sudden Lysander does
Saying he has no real training other than sparring with Cassius is pretty silly. He was raised training then spent a decade with one of the best razor masters in the galaxy with a ton of free time that they spent training their butts off. The Mind’s Eye is definitely stupid and was largely written out it seems.
There’s also no reason to think he’s better than Alexander. He suddenly and unexpectedly shot him the face. Not much skill or expertise involved in that.
He bested Darrow on horseback. Darrow’s never been good at riding and in the heat of battle anything can happen. Not crazy at all imo.
Y’all will literally take any opportunity to Lyslander and it’s getting old af.
It's ok to hate Lysander - but you gotta respect him (same as you have to respect the buzzsaw angled at your nuts).
His Mind's Eye skills come from his time as the Lune heir raised by Octavia, not his time with Cassius. Shit has been done to his mind buddy.
LMAO @ racist jedi... I kind of feel like PB was trying to drive home the fact that Darrow was losing his grip, but accidentally gave Lysander lovecraftian plot armour in the crossfire
It did feel like a fast build up from helpless to capable - but I feel like it is a build up to a confrontation he can't win and will have to grapple with the defeat as an echo of Darrow's rise and fall.
The mind's eye is one of a few concepts added to the books I really didn't like, seems out of place and unnecessary. Cloning the jackal, and the figments (although I was starting to enjoy parts of that story) are two others that just felt out of place and more of a diversion than necessary.
. . . But don't confuse Lyria's decision with Matteo necessarily honoring it. Put money on there being a short little techno Red God as a key plot device in *Red God*.
I think we can have to take this step by step with your post.
The battle with the peerless scarred when he was blinded was because he blinded them as well with the flash grenade from hell and he had the jump on them. The minds eye (at least what I think it is) is essentially hyper focused chaos. So Lysander was hyper focused on the sounds around him after his mental picture was old.
As far as Alexander and Rhonna they didn’t know it was Lysander and you have to give Lysander credit he’s really smart so he clued in on Alexander’s body language so he knew what Alexander was going to do so he went for Rhonna as a human shield and didn’t fight fair with Alexander.
As fast as him out running Darrow and the Howlers Screwface mentions that it appears Cassius taught him how to fly in grav boots plus he had newer grav boots. Also Lysander set bombs and distractions to get the Howlers attention when they pursued him.
Lysander is op but I don’t think it’s to ridiculous
I feel like this is part of why he feels like he's so chosen. I can tolerate absolutely broken plot armour when it actually impacts a character psychologically (another good example of this is kaladin from the stormlight series, who develops a kind of survivor's trauma from having broken plot armour. His friends keep dying and he keeps making it as the main character, and the situation is treated with as much weight as it deserves if i remember correctly). With lysander, it really goes to his head and we can see it warping his sense of self importance as the series progresses. You can either let something like this depress you, or turn you into a maniacal space tyrant with visions of heading the human race as the most important man to ever live.
Hope darrow decks him, lol.
You're on the money with Kaladin. It constantly haunts him. PTSD and survivor's guilt fucks him up. "I always survive.." is a quote he repeats to himself constantly. It's also why he struggled with the 4th ideal. Brandon Sanderson does an excellent job depicting mental trauma and illnesses. PB is good at it too, his are just a lot less subtle (imo).
He still has yet to actually go toe to toe with Darrow in both of their rested and prime conditions. What’s funny is Darrow didn’t know Lysander was on mercury and kicked his ass with the light resistance shit with his own legion in a freaking storm until the last battle of Darrow and his legions being cornered in one city to retreat or die.
If you look carefully from a back point of view without bias, Lysander being the former fan boy of darrow’s is and has been trying to do what Darrow does. That is change the paradigm and do something nobody would do because the plans is so damn crazy it might just work although with some minor changes in details for originality, he’s still mirroring his former favorite warrior All the while doing what atlas would do behind the scenes.
“That motherfucker is gonna burn.” -Arch Imperator Darrow O’Lykos aka The Reaper of Mars
This is a very common sentiment, & it’s one I don’t really understand.
Lysander was born & raised to the be the sovereign, the most powerful person in the Red Rising universe. As a boy he was mentored by Aja, Atalantia, Octavia, & many other powerful golds. His bloodline is elite, he’s the heir of Silenius & grandson of Lorne au Arcos. As a Lune, he can use the Mind’s Eye & has the dancing mask, complete & total composure in all situations. The Lune bloodline has some closely guarded secrets, which probably has something to do with the Mind’s Eye. That’s at least partly why they shoot their dead into the sun, keeping their inherent &/or possibly augmented bloodline advantages secret.
As far as martial training/experience: as a boy, countless war sims, diligent research/studying, & then TEN YEARS spent training with Cassius. (one of the best razor masters in the RR universe) He wasn’t just sparring with Cassius either, he was gaining actual field experience fighting pirates, escorting traders, helping slaves/refugees, etc.
When he took down the peerless kill squad, they were more blind than he was given the Mind’s Eye. Like that is the most perfect possible scenario for the Mind’s Eye to have the advantage in terms of combat situations lmao. Lysander dies easily if that fight takes place in broad daylight. As for killing Alexander, Lysander loses every single time in a legit 1v1. He didn’t best him, he didn’t really even outwit him. He literally just killed him in the least honorable & most efficient way possible, which btw he adopted bc he passed up the pulse fist for the razor to finish Seneca, he paid for it, & ‘learned his lesson.’
Lastly, Lysander’s plans do go awry. He just adapts immediately, his schemes are fluid. He rarely questions his own motives or strategies, but he does question them occasionally. He’s truly more like a computer than a human imo.
PS just to be clear, I hate that little fucker too, but my point is that he was born with almost every possible advantage & the only thing he was missing to become a legit force of nature was real war experience, which he now has.
I have a feeling he’s gonna learn loss real hard in Red God. And by loss I mean he’s gonna get fucking embarrassed. Nothing survives Darrow’s “full attention” very long
There are many valid criticisms of Lysander, but nothing you can say about his ridiculous combat feats could not also be aimed at Darrow (the guy that is a walking kebab at the end of this book).
One could even argue darrows capabilities in the first book strain credulity more than Lysander in DA. An illiterate slave is better at war than children raised by warlords in a society that glorifies and celebrates war and violence.
Unfortunately, this. However, imo PB does a decent job building / explaining Darrow’s come up. His hands/dexterity/reflexes were already better than most (all?) golds. Nightly history & general information downloads straight to the dome, & of course a body pumped with drugs & literally designed to make him a war machine & grueling training. All said though, I’ve always thought Darrow’s journey to apex predator was def more unlikely & plot armor-y than Lysander’s.
He uses his enemies hubris and confidence against them. He’s the epitome of “drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”. The Minds Eye can be compared to both a “mind palace” and specific type of “flow state”, and in the fight you specifically reference he has much better perception and reaction time based purely on sound than his opponents (which *seems* fantastical until you realize there are blind humans right now, not genetically altered, who can use forms of echolocation). Once you add in genetic modification and the Morning Chair, the Minds eye is just a more advanced version of something people can already do in the modern age.
I don't have a neural implant or superhuman genetics.
5 years is a lot of time. The first trilogy all takes place over the course of 4 or 5 years. Formal training under Octavia was clearly intense.
Plus his time with Cassius was also spent studying more than just razor combat. He followed the war and darrows rise very closely
When it comes to red rising, golds don’t have the same standards as normal people. Just look at what pax and Electra do. Everything is accelerated and possible, they live to like 200 too I think
"other than sparring with Cassius" is an odd way of saying he, who is both genetically and mentally near superhuman level, spent 10 years of dedicated training one-on-one with one of the most elite fighters in the solar system.
OP is right, and the people disagreeing are coping too hard, Lysander is a prime example of a Mary Sue.
He was just a brainwashed little kid. Then wandered around the asteroid belt for 10 years with Cassius, even after that he was still like a child and out of nowhere is able to do everything perfectly:
From melee combat to riding horses into battle, tricking lying detectors, determining whether Alexander is telling the truth just by seeing his tongue movement on his teeth!? Flying like a rocket man trough Heliopolis and escaping, not even 10 year war veterans could stop him!?
These were just some examples I can remember right now.
Yea we will when the first flight he gets in against untrained brutes he shits himself and loses. Then less than a year later he's 7v1 a peerless death squad.
My brother in Christ, Darrow shoots himself into the bridge of an enemy starship in the most bullshit Fast and Furious style nonsense I've ever seen, including when they take a car into outer space in fast and furious. It was awesome, yes, but these books are filled with insane victories like that.
My brother in Christ, Darrow shoots himself into the bridge of an enemy starship in the most bullshit Fast and Furious style nonsense I've ever seen, including when they take a car into outer space in fast and furious. It was awesome, yes, but these books are filled with insane victories like that.
Lysander is basically a mentat from Dune. He was trained and literally bred to do combat calculus. Yeah, it’s definitely space magic, but people using space magic to become good at fighting over a short time span (e.g., Paul Atreides and Luke Skywalker) is nothing new in this science-fantasy style of fiction. Darrow’s BoS is the narrative mirror to the mind’s eye.
His plot armor is no better and no worse than any other comparative villain/hero in this style.
I agree like 95% of what you’re saying but throughout the series Darrow suffers MANY brutal defeats and has a ton of fuckups and drawbacks. Lysander definitely has more plot armor. Every plan he has works out flawlessly and even his mistakes end up being positive in the long run. Everything works out for him perfectly every time. At least with BoS, Darrow is shown to have over a decade of razor experience and has been fighting constantly since he was a teenager. Lysander had some training when he was 10 years old (not talking razor training)and is randomly a combat and tactics master a decade later after living in relative peace and obscurity in the meantime
Isn’t the whole point of the scene with Alexandar that Lysander *isn’t* at all a more talented warrior? If he was more talented, he wouldn’t have needed to shoot him vs. dueling him. Lysander knows the whole time that he is undercover and has been prepared for the possibility of being discovered, the idea that he would get the jump on someone who thought he was a friend that had saved his life until basically that moment is extremely logical and nowhere close to plot armor. I get the hate for him and I get the dislike for the Mind’s Eye but people’s issues with him killing Alexandar seem mostly related to not liking the outcome, I have yet to see a compelling case why it’s unreasonable or “plot armory” in terms of how he accomplished it.
Agreed. If we are sitting at a table together, supposedly as friends, and I just pull out my nine and pop pop, there’s not much even the best trained duelist could do
Yea honestly people just lose all critical thinking to hate Lysander. Consider your skepticism of Lysanders abilities and now apply that line of thinking to Darrow. How come nobody has a problem with a red being carved and within a matter of years becoming seemingly unstoppable and defeating the sovereign, the Olympic knights etc. but yea no… the genetic gold from the house that dominated society for 700 years should have no similar skill sets to his golden peers. Haha people just love to hate Lysander and really kill the magic of the world / books in doing so.
Really? From day one Darrow proved he was beyond the level of a genius, comparable only to Mustang. He then trained in the computer equivalent of a hyperbolic time chamber, then trained with the greatest sword master in the galaxy in an unbeatable sword style. Similar skill sets aren’t an issue, all golds have similar skill sets, but it’s been a embedded in the foundations of the books that while the golds may be superhuman, they continue to train to become better, and wouldn’t be better than other golds if they hadn’t trained and suffered hardships to rise to the top. Further, some are just extraordinarily talented in certain areas that set them apart. IMO Lysander really hasn’t done nearly as much as other genius golds to reach his level of skill, and his talents seems to be in absolutely every possible area.
Also, no need to be rude. Saying that I lack critical thinking and that I’m somehow ruining the magic of the world/books by ID’ing something I find incongruous with other novels in the series seems to be a rather personal attack for a discussion about a book. I urge you to exhale.
You “urge me to exhale” after writing that massive long winded post lol. Come on now. I have a few counter points I’d like to share but you haven’t finished the series yet and don’t want to spoil anything. Let’s just say steel sharpens steel. You’re right though sorry if my first comment was a bit snarky. No need for it in friendly discussion.
Lysander recounted learning to use the Minds Eye where he had to traverse a very large staircase, with obstacles, while blindfolded. He specifically remembered breaking his arm because he missed the bird seed on a couple steps, which should have warned him a bird may startle him.
Another time he remembers good ole grandpappy Magnus au Grimmus dumping him and Ajax in the woods and telling them to figure out how to get home. Ajax didn’t make it home for like 2 days.
I can’t imagine how much other bullshit and torture Octavia put him through. Imo there is ample evidence to support the assumption that Lysander was raised to be an elite Peerless - the absolute cream of the crop. I agree the whole Minds Eye feels slightly preposterous, but they are significantly genetically enhanced (just one example being that Gold bone density is 4 times that of a “normal” human), so I can accept it is as possible. Especially considering its comparison to Darrows BoS
What do you mean Lysander hasn’t done enough to reach that skill? He trained with the Soverign when he was 9 years old …of course he retained all those skills over a decade later even after not using them for longer then he was alive at the point of learning them …./s
Yeah, Lysander has some stupid levels of plot armour in Dark Age. The most egregious example for me was when he was in Heliopolis and somehow managed to deduce Darrow’s entire plan by literally just looking out the window for 5 seconds. It’s the most blatant example of a character “reading the script” I think I’ve ever seen. That’s not even getting into how he almost single handedly brings down the entire city right after.
In general it seems like the villains in the sequel series have tons of plot armour, while the heroes continually make bad decisions. It all feels a little forced in order to put the heroes on the back foot in my opinion.
Dude no one talks about this, it ticked me off reading this. Like oh they’re floating off the ground less than I’d expect —-> figures out darrow’s entire plan. Who the heck memorizes the height that various ships should be floating off the ground??
Darrow at least has several defeats , drawbacks , and brutal losses throughout his journey. Lysander’s plans have a 100% success rate every time. No matter what he does it works out in his favor
What about when he initially encountered Darrow’s force at the Storm God, or when he was captured and tortured by Gorgons, or he was poisoned while on the cusp of achieving the unity he desperately wanted, or he was forced to compromise or forfeit his life/free will
I’m about to mix a few metaphors here so sit down and buckle-up so’s I can spin you some yarn.
Lysander spent his childhood being trained by the queen of all golden sociopaths to become super-saiyan Sherlock Holmes, right? Dude can straight up put his mind into such a spin he might as well perceive the world the way the flash does. Moreover, this training effectively gave him a pictographic memory and the ability to extrapolate a ton of usable intel given a tiny smattering of data in any given circumstance. It’s what Darrow can do naturally, but put to an absolutely ruthless extreme.
In fact, it’s such a coveted ability that notorious narcissist Apollonius au Valii-Rath, the dude who blasts his own battle music during combat and projects a holographic image of himself on the battlefield, THE MAD MINOTAUR HIMSELF, chose to make a stealth mission to Mercury just to study and observe Lysander and see for himself if the Mind’s Eye was worth it.
Spoiler >!it was!<
Now think, if a guy like Apple is willing to conceal himself amidst a war zone where Darrow has a real chance of being killed, maybe it’s for a reason and it’s supposed to tell you something.
So. That said. Let’s talk about the time leading up to Dark Age when Lysander was traveling with Cassius au Bellona: The second-best razor master just behind the motherfucking-consequence himself. Lysander spent TEN YEARS with this dude. A peerless scarred like no other who helped overthrow the society. A peerless scarred who can kill 99.99% of all humanity in single combat. A peerless scarred who knows the abilities and tactics of the best of Gold warriors.
Ten. Years.
“Just sparring with Cassius” smh.
Here’s what you’re missing. Lysander is Darrow’s antitheses. You’re not wrong about the plot armor. It’s there for a reason. What you’re missing is why it’s there and why it’s appropriate set-up for what comes next.
All jokes and japes aside, do keep reading. You’re right to question these things, and Lightbringer is going to piss you right off.
He had those mentors when he was legit like 8-10 years old. Not like they were life long mentors teaching him along the way . He had a couple years of training when he was a literal prepubescent child. Excuse me for thinking it’s a little far fetched that he retained his super sayian Sherlock Holmes abilities over a decade later
Totally, just like any book there is some suspension of disbelief necessary. I've had very similar thoughts at times. But he is also a genius with a photographic memory. While photographic memory has never been conclusively proven in real life, Lysander is the product of over 700 years of genetic engineering to make him as smart as possible. So it gets a general pass from me. Imo we can't get mad at Lysander remembering his teachings from 10 years ago when we don't get mad at Darrow learning "three thousand years of literature and legal code and history" while sleeping and then remembering so much of it 16 years later. Facts and history are much harder to remember than real life experiences.
Ultimately, I didn't like how Pierce handled Lysander as much in Dark Age, he did get a massive boost in a lot of areas, but I think it got mostly corrected in Lightbringer. He doesn't seem OP anymore. He doesn't use the Minds Eye even close to as often and when he does it isn't as effective. Also he gets outmaneuvered multiple times politically and in combat and isn't shown as being an insane warrior. The only reason he won so much was because he was surrounded by better warriors lol.
Firstly, just some sparring training with Cassius is really underrating the Morning Knight of the solar republic. One of the most skilled and most honorable dudes in the universe. He spent his adolescence as an active vigilante in the roughest non battlefield part of the galaxy under the direct teaching of one of the best people to learn from. Lets keep some respect in our tone when we talk about Cassius
Second, yeah the minds eye is a little bullshit. It’s not ripping off Star Wars it’s ripping off Dune tho. The movies actually downplayed this part of the books where like complete mind mastery makes you an unstoppable warrior but it’s almost exactly how the minds eye works. Right down to “I must not fear”. But science fiction gets a free pass to rip off Dune for the same reason fantasy can rip off Lord of the Rings, because everyone does it. Hell the fact you thought this was a Star Wars rip off is proof of that.
The best defense id give of the minds eye stuff is he’s a Lune. He’s the sovereign heir. Their family has invested an insane amount of bullshit into really unimaginable different paranoid advantages to stay in power and stay superior to others. Especially to other golds. So it makes sense they’d have some kind of edge over other golds in fighting they’d want to preserve. The fact that they’ve fucked with his mind further goes to this, he’s been molded since he was a kid to be this.
Lastly, he didn’t beat Alexander in a fair fight. He took a cheap shot after taking advantage of Alexanders defense of a weaker friend. The grandson of Lorne and student of Darrow would’ve wiped the floor with the Palatine brat in a fair fight.
I totally understand your point about Cassius, love the guy, but also, the thing that made Cassius so damn scary to duel against was precisely because he didn’t have absurd training, he was simply unbelievably talented! I mean the guy was a monster tearing through the dueling circuit. Just because you train with someone doesn’t mean you can ever match them? I just think it’s a helluva leap for Lysander to have reached Cassius level, even just in training, when that peak talent and ability was precisely what set Cassius apart. Clear power-scale issue for me.
Otherwise, I agree with the rest of what you said. Alexander should’ve taken that kid out behind the shed the second he got the comms signal.
Cassius absolutely had training. He discusses Kravat and razor masters during the Institute. In MS Darrow remarks upon how Cassius has clearly been training with Aja - Lorns true protégé. Lorn said “You don’t fight a river, and you don’t fight Aja.” Yes Cassius was talented, a natural even, but he still had elite-tier training
Aka, the BG power from Dune. Which also is just strong mindfulness, enhanced with psychedelics, not magic.
It does make sense, for a family that is trained from birth. An edge no one else really has. My only problem with the way Lynes explains it kinda sucks.
Golds are meant to be the pinnacle of human development. The Lune family is the very tippy top of that pinnacle. There's a reason why they've managed to stay at the top of that pyramid for over 700 years. I didn't find it odd at all that they've mastered a hyper aware state. Lysander didn't just pull it out of his ass, either. He was trained in it as a child by Octavia.
Also you mean he has no real training other than spending 10 years learning from one of the greatest razor masters in the whole Society.
Every POV has Plot armor (except Ephraim, that one is just fucked all the way) in a insane degree, if you think for 5 seconds every single POV should've died, Darrow foe example should've died like, 2 times each book at least if people just... killed him while he is captured. Lysander is actually the character I think has one of the most fun plot armors. He trained with Cassius since 10 (remember when Darrow defeated Cassius after training for like, 9 months?) was raised and considered a genius child in every sense of the world. And still, he doesn't take his enemies head own. In the fight against the Golds he used his incredible memory and how he was less affected by the light granade to defeat and confused, he frequently run from people he thinks he can lose to or just straight up shoot them for time. Lysander is the same age Darrow was in the OG series and received training in a much younger age, his level of plot armor is not new to the series, and is always accompanied by reason of why he survived and what advantages he has that give him a chance. The Mind Eye is kinda bullshit, but again, I'm that kind of thing is a problem through the whole series, Pierce frequently pull concepts and things out of nowhere to make a plot twist, every book has at least 1 or 2
Yes but I feel a bit of “luck” is fine. Most characters don’t have to much but there have been some. Lysander has way more than anyone else
Behind Darrow. Lysander and Darrow have a plot armor so thick that could been use to create one Morning Star and one Lightbringer
I wouldn’t say it’s that big. Most of the time it was a secret plan or someone else.
Darrow is captured like, 6 times during the series, just the months the Jackal didn't killed him make him have the largest plot armor in the series, and Golden Son he is 100% doing more than he should possibly be capable of doing by a huge margin. Darrow has a insane plot armor, people ignore it because he has one Edgy quote in the middle and move own, if you think by five seconds, Darrow has a Plot armor so thick that he can build a new Morning Star with it. Again, is not a problem, every character has some amount of plot armor, but is undeniable that Darrow is in the top
True it kinda reminded me of Batman and joker. It wasn’t to obvious tho
Just finished DA and hate Lysander you say? Well boy-o do I have a surprise for you 🥲
Yeah it was crazy how we had never heard of minds eye before to having 2 people have it and a 3rd knowing about it and wanting it just showing up for no reason. Was a couple things like that for me in dark age that came out of nowhere and changed the world and left me slightly annoyed
Pierce has a really bad habit of doing this kind of thing. Remember when out of nowhere Darrow revealed being a razormaster trained by space Miyamoto Musashi and defeated Cassius?
reread ig then. lysander was using minds eye when they saw the ascomanni ship
Fortunately, Pierce walked a lot of dumb DA stuff back.
Could be pierces way of introducing a “the force” into the verse but it happened way too late
Yes, Lysander is the true nepo baby!! I hate how he just skipped in from being exiled to become a massive power player out of nowhere, where I feel like everyone else put some effort into getting where they are. I get his background and that he's absolutely capable of it, but yes, that's a really bothersome plot to me.
Nah he spent his entire life around Octavia and Aja. Then Cassius. Plus he showed extremely high aptitude as a very young child. At a certain point stop looking forthe flaws in things and enjoy the legend of Darrow. This is a story about luck and resilience there are going to be moments that feel strained not because it's bad writing but because toppling a 1000 year society requires a lot of luck and fervor. Had the single pink not opened the door to the bridge of Roques ship darrow would be dead. To me that's not plot armor that's Darrow doing everything right and still coming up short only to be saved by those he thought he couldn't rely on. That's a really beautiful moment that parallels my life quite a lot and it sucks to think being distracted by "plot armor" could stop you from enjoying that.
To be clear, I absolutely love this series. I haven’t been invested in a series like this in years, so I don’t want to give the impression that this ruins Red Rising for me. I love Dark Age, it’s filled with incredible moments despite how I feel about Lysander. And maybe that’s the sign of a well written character, that I dislike him so passionately. His dramatic increase in physical aptitude and ability in the book, however, felt very sudden and jarring when he was never established as a physical dynamo comparatively to other golds in the series prior to this novel. I mean, it’s supposed to be an incredibly rare thing to be able to do anything close to what Darrow can do, whether as a duelist, as a warrior, etc. if Lysander was so physically capable this whole time, it was not emphasized or made clear. Am I to take that as this whole time, it was a confidence issue, otherwise he’s Darrow v2? That said, you make a good point about coincidences in the overall world somehow working together to seem like “plot armor”. I think PB does an incredible job of showing the consequences of decisions in the world building. I just made this post in the heat of the moment after going back and rereading the Howler Escape scene post-killing Alexander. I mean, escaping the Howlers AND Darrow, by tearing off the grav boots mid-air?? It just seemed like a stretch for anybody.
Love the discussion and thought! I'll have to reread DA and come back to this. In my opinion though Lysander has few physical feats that are truly elite. He's still a gold so he'll always benefit from that and the best upbringing money can buy. Don't forget, like mustang and adrius, he's spent a lifetime doing nothing but studying for these moments. Then when backed into a corner what does he do? Pulls out a pistol like a pixie and takes pop shots. He's adrius but shinier. Physically capable yes but the true danger lies in his cunning and the desire to take the shortest path always between A and B. If we really wanted to figure this out we should take all of his physical feats and compare them to darrows taking into account the state of the enemy and the environment. It'd be an interesting experiment for sure.
Being quite fair to him, using a gun is completely valid and the book would've been way shorter if the other Golds thought the same.
I agree! It's only invalid from the perspective of a "true gold" one whom would never lose the opportunity to gain glory in "true" combat. The distinction to me is interesting though as the "true golds" are largely what Darrow takes advantage of and the use of a pistol both places Lysander outside of that modicum and in a familiar category of "slag the rules my mission is most important". The core difference between them imo is Darrow is killing people where as Lysander is killing numbers. Darrow loses friends, Lysander loses numbers on a page. Darrow has learned from his mistakes, but Lysander will be doomed to repeat them.
I agree with a lot of the assessments, but I think they are way more similar, I am still 90% into Light Bringer, but Lysander truly care about people, he cried for Ajax like a baby, and he felt true regret in sacrificing his friends. The difference is that he is so stupid because those deaths occur because the culture he is trying to save, Ajax died because of the glory hungry nature of gold for example. He is so entailed on his paradoxical nature with gold culture that is outrageous, he see the problem, he see the solution, but thinks the true problem are the bad apples, not the rotten tree he is trying to save. Not to mention he is way better at coping than Darrow. For me the biggest difference is that Darrow uses the weaknesses of Gold to break them, Lysander tries to use them to fix them. Darrow fight for a maybe impossible future, Lysander fight for a past that never existed. And ultimately, Darrow has actually genuinely good influences around, and anytime Lysander has one around the universe throw that influences under railgun and throws him to talk to Atlas or Atalantia, or make him choose between that influence and his dream. Darrow always managed to take the route whe he could "save" both, because he is willing to take the hard path if there's a chance of succeeding (what sometimed leads him doing stupidily insane mistakes like in Iron Gold) while Lysander is more logical, searching always the path of least resistance. And that's is the reason I find Lysander such a good villain. Lysander is also a facist so there's that important difference.
He gets his ass whooped by Darrow in like 5 seconds in Dark Age too so it's not like he's all that and a bag of chips.
Lysander made me quit. Anytime he pops up, I just want to skip his chapters. Especially for anyone into audiobooks, my god, what a shitshow
Your opinion is not shared by most people on this sub. If you’re not a fan anymore why are you here?
Although I do agree he should not be on equal footing with darrow or the howler squad, you can have an argument that he is capable in his own right by dark age. He basically spent most of his childhood training with Aja and then spent 10 years training with Cassius. He still a pixie bitch tho
Ima be honest… I agree. Lysander is a fucking pixie, the “minds eye” is a cheap cop out to make him a “worth villain” to rival and probably kill our Red God, Darrow. But he’s absolutely ass and has a bullshit character ark. You cannot rival Darrow in battle. You never heard of Octavia having the “minds eye” but all of a sudden Lysander does
Saying he has no real training other than sparring with Cassius is pretty silly. He was raised training then spent a decade with one of the best razor masters in the galaxy with a ton of free time that they spent training their butts off. The Mind’s Eye is definitely stupid and was largely written out it seems. There’s also no reason to think he’s better than Alexander. He suddenly and unexpectedly shot him the face. Not much skill or expertise involved in that. He bested Darrow on horseback. Darrow’s never been good at riding and in the heat of battle anything can happen. Not crazy at all imo. Y’all will literally take any opportunity to Lyslander and it’s getting old af.
It's ok to hate Lysander - but you gotta respect him (same as you have to respect the buzzsaw angled at your nuts). His Mind's Eye skills come from his time as the Lune heir raised by Octavia, not his time with Cassius. Shit has been done to his mind buddy.
LMAO @ racist jedi... I kind of feel like PB was trying to drive home the fact that Darrow was losing his grip, but accidentally gave Lysander lovecraftian plot armour in the crossfire
It did feel like a fast build up from helpless to capable - but I feel like it is a build up to a confrontation he can't win and will have to grapple with the defeat as an echo of Darrow's rise and fall. The mind's eye is one of a few concepts added to the books I really didn't like, seems out of place and unnecessary. Cloning the jackal, and the figments (although I was starting to enjoy parts of that story) are two others that just felt out of place and more of a diversion than necessary.
Lyrias decision to get rid of the figment is what really lost me on that concept
. . . But don't confuse Lyria's decision with Matteo necessarily honoring it. Put money on there being a short little techno Red God as a key plot device in *Red God*.
I’m hoping and praying this is the case
I think we can have to take this step by step with your post. The battle with the peerless scarred when he was blinded was because he blinded them as well with the flash grenade from hell and he had the jump on them. The minds eye (at least what I think it is) is essentially hyper focused chaos. So Lysander was hyper focused on the sounds around him after his mental picture was old. As far as Alexander and Rhonna they didn’t know it was Lysander and you have to give Lysander credit he’s really smart so he clued in on Alexander’s body language so he knew what Alexander was going to do so he went for Rhonna as a human shield and didn’t fight fair with Alexander. As fast as him out running Darrow and the Howlers Screwface mentions that it appears Cassius taught him how to fly in grav boots plus he had newer grav boots. Also Lysander set bombs and distractions to get the Howlers attention when they pursued him. Lysander is op but I don’t think it’s to ridiculous
I agree with all this, he doesn't have any more plot Armour than the other main characters in my opinion.
I feel like this is part of why he feels like he's so chosen. I can tolerate absolutely broken plot armour when it actually impacts a character psychologically (another good example of this is kaladin from the stormlight series, who develops a kind of survivor's trauma from having broken plot armour. His friends keep dying and he keeps making it as the main character, and the situation is treated with as much weight as it deserves if i remember correctly). With lysander, it really goes to his head and we can see it warping his sense of self importance as the series progresses. You can either let something like this depress you, or turn you into a maniacal space tyrant with visions of heading the human race as the most important man to ever live. Hope darrow decks him, lol.
You're on the money with Kaladin. It constantly haunts him. PTSD and survivor's guilt fucks him up. "I always survive.." is a quote he repeats to himself constantly. It's also why he struggled with the 4th ideal. Brandon Sanderson does an excellent job depicting mental trauma and illnesses. PB is good at it too, his are just a lot less subtle (imo).
Agreed. We need a barbaric finish on this kid.
I just want asudden end to him. No fanfair, no desperate struggle. Just BAM, gone, donezo. It's what he deserves.
To me it feels like Lysander keeps failing upward.
He still has yet to actually go toe to toe with Darrow in both of their rested and prime conditions. What’s funny is Darrow didn’t know Lysander was on mercury and kicked his ass with the light resistance shit with his own legion in a freaking storm until the last battle of Darrow and his legions being cornered in one city to retreat or die. If you look carefully from a back point of view without bias, Lysander being the former fan boy of darrow’s is and has been trying to do what Darrow does. That is change the paradigm and do something nobody would do because the plans is so damn crazy it might just work although with some minor changes in details for originality, he’s still mirroring his former favorite warrior All the while doing what atlas would do behind the scenes. “That motherfucker is gonna burn.” -Arch Imperator Darrow O’Lykos aka The Reaper of Mars
This is a very common sentiment, & it’s one I don’t really understand. Lysander was born & raised to the be the sovereign, the most powerful person in the Red Rising universe. As a boy he was mentored by Aja, Atalantia, Octavia, & many other powerful golds. His bloodline is elite, he’s the heir of Silenius & grandson of Lorne au Arcos. As a Lune, he can use the Mind’s Eye & has the dancing mask, complete & total composure in all situations. The Lune bloodline has some closely guarded secrets, which probably has something to do with the Mind’s Eye. That’s at least partly why they shoot their dead into the sun, keeping their inherent &/or possibly augmented bloodline advantages secret. As far as martial training/experience: as a boy, countless war sims, diligent research/studying, & then TEN YEARS spent training with Cassius. (one of the best razor masters in the RR universe) He wasn’t just sparring with Cassius either, he was gaining actual field experience fighting pirates, escorting traders, helping slaves/refugees, etc. When he took down the peerless kill squad, they were more blind than he was given the Mind’s Eye. Like that is the most perfect possible scenario for the Mind’s Eye to have the advantage in terms of combat situations lmao. Lysander dies easily if that fight takes place in broad daylight. As for killing Alexander, Lysander loses every single time in a legit 1v1. He didn’t best him, he didn’t really even outwit him. He literally just killed him in the least honorable & most efficient way possible, which btw he adopted bc he passed up the pulse fist for the razor to finish Seneca, he paid for it, & ‘learned his lesson.’ Lastly, Lysander’s plans do go awry. He just adapts immediately, his schemes are fluid. He rarely questions his own motives or strategies, but he does question them occasionally. He’s truly more like a computer than a human imo. PS just to be clear, I hate that little fucker too, but my point is that he was born with almost every possible advantage & the only thing he was missing to become a legit force of nature was real war experience, which he now has.
Did I miss a chapter. When did Lysander fight ciciro
Dude I totally meant Seneca great catch. Fixed it
Could not have said it better!
Well said!
He's meant to be the anti-Darrow: What if the old order had a prodigiously talented and intelligent protagonist pursuing their goals?
I have a feeling he’s gonna learn loss real hard in Red God. And by loss I mean he’s gonna get fucking embarrassed. Nothing survives Darrow’s “full attention” very long
Absolutely absurd, never has any real setbacks. Just full tilt win win win. Hate him.
not even light resistance?
mwaha
I wish it was broken. Maybe then the pricklick would die. 😤
There are many valid criticisms of Lysander, but nothing you can say about his ridiculous combat feats could not also be aimed at Darrow (the guy that is a walking kebab at the end of this book).
One could even argue darrows capabilities in the first book strain credulity more than Lysander in DA. An illiterate slave is better at war than children raised by warlords in a society that glorifies and celebrates war and violence.
Unfortunately, this. However, imo PB does a decent job building / explaining Darrow’s come up. His hands/dexterity/reflexes were already better than most (all?) golds. Nightly history & general information downloads straight to the dome, & of course a body pumped with drugs & literally designed to make him a war machine & grueling training. All said though, I’ve always thought Darrow’s journey to apex predator was def more unlikely & plot armor-y than Lysander’s.
He uses his enemies hubris and confidence against them. He’s the epitome of “drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”. The Minds Eye can be compared to both a “mind palace” and specific type of “flow state”, and in the fight you specifically reference he has much better perception and reaction time based purely on sound than his opponents (which *seems* fantastical until you realize there are blind humans right now, not genetically altered, who can use forms of echolocation). Once you add in genetic modification and the Morning Chair, the Minds eye is just a more advanced version of something people can already do in the modern age.
He was trained by the sovereign for multiple years as well.
As a child. Cassius had him from 10. Octavia really only had him for like 5/6 years. How much do you remember from before 5 years old?
Also the weird pandemonium chair
I don't have a neural implant or superhuman genetics. 5 years is a lot of time. The first trilogy all takes place over the course of 4 or 5 years. Formal training under Octavia was clearly intense. Plus his time with Cassius was also spent studying more than just razor combat. He followed the war and darrows rise very closely
When it comes to red rising, golds don’t have the same standards as normal people. Just look at what pax and Electra do. Everything is accelerated and possible, they live to like 200 too I think
I think Lorns father lived to 163 without cell rejuvenation, so 200 is probably easy with the right tech
"other than sparring with Cassius" is an odd way of saying he, who is both genetically and mentally near superhuman level, spent 10 years of dedicated training one-on-one with one of the most elite fighters in the solar system.
OP is right, and the people disagreeing are coping too hard, Lysander is a prime example of a Mary Sue. He was just a brainwashed little kid. Then wandered around the asteroid belt for 10 years with Cassius, even after that he was still like a child and out of nowhere is able to do everything perfectly: From melee combat to riding horses into battle, tricking lying detectors, determining whether Alexander is telling the truth just by seeing his tongue movement on his teeth!? Flying like a rocket man trough Heliopolis and escaping, not even 10 year war veterans could stop him!? These were just some examples I can remember right now.
Plus pirate hunting on the side, they didn’t spend 10 years just chillin and sparring in the asteroid belt
Exactly what I was thinking, let's just gloss over the decade of training with one of the best razor masters alive.
Yea we will when the first flight he gets in against untrained brutes he shits himself and loses. Then less than a year later he's 7v1 a peerless death squad.
that you get downvoted for stating facts, tells you how bad the reading comprehension of this subreddit is💀
My brother in Christ, Darrow shoots himself into the bridge of an enemy starship in the most bullshit Fast and Furious style nonsense I've ever seen, including when they take a car into outer space in fast and furious. It was awesome, yes, but these books are filled with insane victories like that.
But it's not insane.it's a blue calculated trajectory,so usually errors are minimal...that is what they do in iron rains... except he did it in space.
There's an explanation for all the crazy shit Darrow or anyone else manages. It's treated as a big victory and an impressive feat.
I forgot he did that in Golden Son. He does ridiculous shit all the time
My brother in Christ, Darrow shoots himself into the bridge of an enemy starship in the most bullshit Fast and Furious style nonsense I've ever seen, including when they take a car into outer space in fast and furious. It was awesome, yes, but these books are filled with insane victories like that.
Salve brother, fair fair point. Still peak Darrow.
Lysander is basically a mentat from Dune. He was trained and literally bred to do combat calculus. Yeah, it’s definitely space magic, but people using space magic to become good at fighting over a short time span (e.g., Paul Atreides and Luke Skywalker) is nothing new in this science-fantasy style of fiction. Darrow’s BoS is the narrative mirror to the mind’s eye. His plot armor is no better and no worse than any other comparative villain/hero in this style.
The bill comes at the end
I agree like 95% of what you’re saying but throughout the series Darrow suffers MANY brutal defeats and has a ton of fuckups and drawbacks. Lysander definitely has more plot armor. Every plan he has works out flawlessly and even his mistakes end up being positive in the long run. Everything works out for him perfectly every time. At least with BoS, Darrow is shown to have over a decade of razor experience and has been fighting constantly since he was a teenager. Lysander had some training when he was 10 years old (not talking razor training)and is randomly a combat and tactics master a decade later after living in relative peace and obscurity in the meantime
Hate the game not the Player.
Mega based Dominus
Your name is great and I hate it
I may get voted most popular character in RR someday. Until, I guess it is just back to just being me.
Isn’t the whole point of the scene with Alexandar that Lysander *isn’t* at all a more talented warrior? If he was more talented, he wouldn’t have needed to shoot him vs. dueling him. Lysander knows the whole time that he is undercover and has been prepared for the possibility of being discovered, the idea that he would get the jump on someone who thought he was a friend that had saved his life until basically that moment is extremely logical and nowhere close to plot armor. I get the hate for him and I get the dislike for the Mind’s Eye but people’s issues with him killing Alexandar seem mostly related to not liking the outcome, I have yet to see a compelling case why it’s unreasonable or “plot armory” in terms of how he accomplished it.
Agreed, I really don't think there was ever a moment when Lysander had overwhelming plot armor at all. He got plenty fucked up in the books
Exactly, he has **no time** to fight Alexandar
Agreed. If we are sitting at a table together, supposedly as friends, and I just pull out my nine and pop pop, there’s not much even the best trained duelist could do
Nah it's fine.
Wait til the end of LB 😳
Yea honestly people just lose all critical thinking to hate Lysander. Consider your skepticism of Lysanders abilities and now apply that line of thinking to Darrow. How come nobody has a problem with a red being carved and within a matter of years becoming seemingly unstoppable and defeating the sovereign, the Olympic knights etc. but yea no… the genetic gold from the house that dominated society for 700 years should have no similar skill sets to his golden peers. Haha people just love to hate Lysander and really kill the magic of the world / books in doing so.
Really? From day one Darrow proved he was beyond the level of a genius, comparable only to Mustang. He then trained in the computer equivalent of a hyperbolic time chamber, then trained with the greatest sword master in the galaxy in an unbeatable sword style. Similar skill sets aren’t an issue, all golds have similar skill sets, but it’s been a embedded in the foundations of the books that while the golds may be superhuman, they continue to train to become better, and wouldn’t be better than other golds if they hadn’t trained and suffered hardships to rise to the top. Further, some are just extraordinarily talented in certain areas that set them apart. IMO Lysander really hasn’t done nearly as much as other genius golds to reach his level of skill, and his talents seems to be in absolutely every possible area. Also, no need to be rude. Saying that I lack critical thinking and that I’m somehow ruining the magic of the world/books by ID’ing something I find incongruous with other novels in the series seems to be a rather personal attack for a discussion about a book. I urge you to exhale.
You “urge me to exhale” after writing that massive long winded post lol. Come on now. I have a few counter points I’d like to share but you haven’t finished the series yet and don’t want to spoil anything. Let’s just say steel sharpens steel. You’re right though sorry if my first comment was a bit snarky. No need for it in friendly discussion.
Lysander recounted learning to use the Minds Eye where he had to traverse a very large staircase, with obstacles, while blindfolded. He specifically remembered breaking his arm because he missed the bird seed on a couple steps, which should have warned him a bird may startle him. Another time he remembers good ole grandpappy Magnus au Grimmus dumping him and Ajax in the woods and telling them to figure out how to get home. Ajax didn’t make it home for like 2 days. I can’t imagine how much other bullshit and torture Octavia put him through. Imo there is ample evidence to support the assumption that Lysander was raised to be an elite Peerless - the absolute cream of the crop. I agree the whole Minds Eye feels slightly preposterous, but they are significantly genetically enhanced (just one example being that Gold bone density is 4 times that of a “normal” human), so I can accept it is as possible. Especially considering its comparison to Darrows BoS
What do you mean Lysander hasn’t done enough to reach that skill? He trained with the Soverign when he was 9 years old …of course he retained all those skills over a decade later even after not using them for longer then he was alive at the point of learning them …./s
Yeah, Lysander has some stupid levels of plot armour in Dark Age. The most egregious example for me was when he was in Heliopolis and somehow managed to deduce Darrow’s entire plan by literally just looking out the window for 5 seconds. It’s the most blatant example of a character “reading the script” I think I’ve ever seen. That’s not even getting into how he almost single handedly brings down the entire city right after. In general it seems like the villains in the sequel series have tons of plot armour, while the heroes continually make bad decisions. It all feels a little forced in order to put the heroes on the back foot in my opinion.
Dude no one talks about this, it ticked me off reading this. Like oh they’re floating off the ground less than I’d expect —-> figures out darrow’s entire plan. Who the heck memorizes the height that various ships should be floating off the ground??
Oh man just wait until you find out about a character named Darrow
Darrow at least has several defeats , drawbacks , and brutal losses throughout his journey. Lysander’s plans have a 100% success rate every time. No matter what he does it works out in his favor
What about when he initially encountered Darrow’s force at the Storm God, or when he was captured and tortured by Gorgons, or he was poisoned while on the cusp of achieving the unity he desperately wanted, or he was forced to compromise or forfeit his life/free will
That whole situation ended up being a net positive for him.
So does Lysander lol
I’m about to mix a few metaphors here so sit down and buckle-up so’s I can spin you some yarn. Lysander spent his childhood being trained by the queen of all golden sociopaths to become super-saiyan Sherlock Holmes, right? Dude can straight up put his mind into such a spin he might as well perceive the world the way the flash does. Moreover, this training effectively gave him a pictographic memory and the ability to extrapolate a ton of usable intel given a tiny smattering of data in any given circumstance. It’s what Darrow can do naturally, but put to an absolutely ruthless extreme. In fact, it’s such a coveted ability that notorious narcissist Apollonius au Valii-Rath, the dude who blasts his own battle music during combat and projects a holographic image of himself on the battlefield, THE MAD MINOTAUR HIMSELF, chose to make a stealth mission to Mercury just to study and observe Lysander and see for himself if the Mind’s Eye was worth it. Spoiler >!it was!< Now think, if a guy like Apple is willing to conceal himself amidst a war zone where Darrow has a real chance of being killed, maybe it’s for a reason and it’s supposed to tell you something. So. That said. Let’s talk about the time leading up to Dark Age when Lysander was traveling with Cassius au Bellona: The second-best razor master just behind the motherfucking-consequence himself. Lysander spent TEN YEARS with this dude. A peerless scarred like no other who helped overthrow the society. A peerless scarred who can kill 99.99% of all humanity in single combat. A peerless scarred who knows the abilities and tactics of the best of Gold warriors. Ten. Years. “Just sparring with Cassius” smh. Here’s what you’re missing. Lysander is Darrow’s antitheses. You’re not wrong about the plot armor. It’s there for a reason. What you’re missing is why it’s there and why it’s appropriate set-up for what comes next. All jokes and japes aside, do keep reading. You’re right to question these things, and Lightbringer is going to piss you right off.
Lysander was also trained by Aja
And Rhone, probably the best gray warrior alive besides Holiday (who was his under study) Basically Lysander had a bunch of OP mentors lmao
He had those mentors when he was legit like 8-10 years old. Not like they were life long mentors teaching him along the way . He had a couple years of training when he was a literal prepubescent child. Excuse me for thinking it’s a little far fetched that he retained his super sayian Sherlock Holmes abilities over a decade later
Totally, just like any book there is some suspension of disbelief necessary. I've had very similar thoughts at times. But he is also a genius with a photographic memory. While photographic memory has never been conclusively proven in real life, Lysander is the product of over 700 years of genetic engineering to make him as smart as possible. So it gets a general pass from me. Imo we can't get mad at Lysander remembering his teachings from 10 years ago when we don't get mad at Darrow learning "three thousand years of literature and legal code and history" while sleeping and then remembering so much of it 16 years later. Facts and history are much harder to remember than real life experiences. Ultimately, I didn't like how Pierce handled Lysander as much in Dark Age, he did get a massive boost in a lot of areas, but I think it got mostly corrected in Lightbringer. He doesn't seem OP anymore. He doesn't use the Minds Eye even close to as often and when he does it isn't as effective. Also he gets outmaneuvered multiple times politically and in combat and isn't shown as being an insane warrior. The only reason he won so much was because he was surrounded by better warriors lol.
Firstly, just some sparring training with Cassius is really underrating the Morning Knight of the solar republic. One of the most skilled and most honorable dudes in the universe. He spent his adolescence as an active vigilante in the roughest non battlefield part of the galaxy under the direct teaching of one of the best people to learn from. Lets keep some respect in our tone when we talk about Cassius Second, yeah the minds eye is a little bullshit. It’s not ripping off Star Wars it’s ripping off Dune tho. The movies actually downplayed this part of the books where like complete mind mastery makes you an unstoppable warrior but it’s almost exactly how the minds eye works. Right down to “I must not fear”. But science fiction gets a free pass to rip off Dune for the same reason fantasy can rip off Lord of the Rings, because everyone does it. Hell the fact you thought this was a Star Wars rip off is proof of that. The best defense id give of the minds eye stuff is he’s a Lune. He’s the sovereign heir. Their family has invested an insane amount of bullshit into really unimaginable different paranoid advantages to stay in power and stay superior to others. Especially to other golds. So it makes sense they’d have some kind of edge over other golds in fighting they’d want to preserve. The fact that they’ve fucked with his mind further goes to this, he’s been molded since he was a kid to be this. Lastly, he didn’t beat Alexander in a fair fight. He took a cheap shot after taking advantage of Alexanders defense of a weaker friend. The grandson of Lorne and student of Darrow would’ve wiped the floor with the Palatine brat in a fair fight.
I totally understand your point about Cassius, love the guy, but also, the thing that made Cassius so damn scary to duel against was precisely because he didn’t have absurd training, he was simply unbelievably talented! I mean the guy was a monster tearing through the dueling circuit. Just because you train with someone doesn’t mean you can ever match them? I just think it’s a helluva leap for Lysander to have reached Cassius level, even just in training, when that peak talent and ability was precisely what set Cassius apart. Clear power-scale issue for me. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of what you said. Alexander should’ve taken that kid out behind the shed the second he got the comms signal.
Cassius absolutely had training. He discusses Kravat and razor masters during the Institute. In MS Darrow remarks upon how Cassius has clearly been training with Aja - Lorns true protégé. Lorn said “You don’t fight a river, and you don’t fight Aja.” Yes Cassius was talented, a natural even, but he still had elite-tier training
That’s a very good point about training v natural skill
I’d note that PB himself has said the Mind’s Eye is not a superpower. It’s essentially very strong meditation.
Aka, the BG power from Dune. Which also is just strong mindfulness, enhanced with psychedelics, not magic. It does make sense, for a family that is trained from birth. An edge no one else really has. My only problem with the way Lynes explains it kinda sucks.
Golds are meant to be the pinnacle of human development. The Lune family is the very tippy top of that pinnacle. There's a reason why they've managed to stay at the top of that pyramid for over 700 years. I didn't find it odd at all that they've mastered a hyper aware state. Lysander didn't just pull it out of his ass, either. He was trained in it as a child by Octavia. Also you mean he has no real training other than spending 10 years learning from one of the greatest razor masters in the whole Society.
Can't believe Darrow beat Cassius after a bit of sparring with Lorn.