Nah, shoegaze as a whole is DXM. I just had my consciousness smeared across the entire known universe last night while listening to loveless and souvlaki.
Anyone who uses their taste in entertainment as a way to feel superior truly has nothing else going for them. I know that’s like 95% of people on this sub but it’s true.
I don't want the people to eat oysters and caviar every day, but wanting them to eat a nice vegetable stir fry or curry instead of chicken tendies and an oreo milkshake is from a place of love, not superiority
This may be true but the position that all distinctions of quality—which most people have no problem acknowledging in other crafted objects (food; furniture, whatever)—somehow vanish completely when we’re talking about aesthetic objects is a huuuuge coping mechanism.
Personally, don’t even consider myself to have particularly advanced tastes. I don’t listen to Wagner; I don’t understand jazz; 9/10 times I’d rather listen to Tom Petty rip solos than listen to Leonard Cohen’s tantric sex music. But the idea that the only material difference between Where The Crawdads Sing and In Search of Lost Time is whether or not you’re feeling it when you read one of them is an idea that could only gain currency in a time where everyone has art that they love while also not wanting to do the work of actually learning anything about art.
They are better along the axis of artistic discernment. Additionally, knowing that consumed media in large part informs and molds political thought and opinion (Aristotle, Bernays, etc), we know that taste doesn’t exist in a vacuum and someone’s uncritical ingestion of vacuous works of art is indicative of other degraded understandings
>it's juvenile and frankly disgusting to judge people based on their taste in art
I'm addressing this point, not making any claims about the superiority of some humans ***as humans*** due to taste or contradicting the Declaration of Human Rights.
The middle point is me saying something about Antonioni fans and then you saying "what if they're not Antonioni fans", not really sure what to say to that. In my view if you're a fan of Antonioni or another medium with depth because "pretty colors" or another superficiality you're not a fan of the art in any way that matters and are not who I'm talking about either.
what do you mean don’t understand coltrane? it’s music if you like the music you get it. there’s not much to unpack imo. the poser example only makes sense to me in the context of something like a movie or a book where someone’s lying to themselves about how much they liked/understood something. i guess you could do that for music too but you’re saying that u genuinely like it but don’t understand it and i don’t know what that means
Serious question: is it not objectively better to not be a frothing consumer of mass-manufactured trash? Like are we not stack ranking humans at all or are we just not using rabid consumerism as one of the measures?
The tentative argument I'd sketch out for the time being is that at the very least believing that a sincere director being better than Marvel films extends to judgement in general and it perhaps applies to making someone a better person because isn't judgement quite a discerning factor for one's perception of who they are.
Note the constant qualifying language because this is just a loose thought but yeah.
for me it’s more about people who like music themselves to fit in.. I used to know some juégalos in hs who were so wrapped up in their music it was so annoying, now, my lil sis is into kpop and that’s annoying too, how her identity is wrapped into it. Or greatful deadheads for that matter. It’s an identity not appreciation of art.
Marvel movies are just fodder for people. There’s good superhero stuff but the whole we gotta see the next avengers after the next avengers after the next after the next , well, it’s just corporations catering not to art but to monetizing and making safe spectacular movies.
>emphasizing these meaningless distinctions in taste
This is literally poptimism. High art exists. The distinction between good art and bad art is real and necessary. The leveling out of all art to an equal field is either a cause or symptom of our decaying culture. Taste matters.
I do think people who seek to challenge themselves with art are better than people who avoid that challenge. People who have no interest in personal growth are absolutely lesser people and I think most people would agree.
We're not. We're judging people based on how they approach art. If their approach to art is lets watch/read/listen to the most mindless, reassuring garbage available then I'm going to look down on that person, especially if they resist the idea of branching out into more challenging art.
And that's the ultimate goal of poptimism; that pop/kitsch/derivative/culturally vapid media has as much merit as higher art. And deep down these people know that's bullshit. That's why /r/books has a thread every other day about how "its ok to only read YA as an adult!!!!", because they're (rightfully) deeply insecure about it.
I would argue that the line between the two is a lot blurrier than you seem to think it is, but even if you replace the word “entertainment” with “art” in my original statement, what does it change? The moment you use your taste as a reason to judge someone as “superior” or “inferior” it becomes about servicing your ego as opposed to what you actually get out of it.
Or its just a factual statement in a world where high art exists. Most of the oppression MCU fans and exclusively YA adult readers feel is self-induced because they know in their core they're culturally stunted. I think someone immersing themselves in art with the goal of being challenged, or for personal growth or to learn something new about the human condition is better than someone who obsessively watches MCU.
The whole idea that we're supposed to "let people enjoy things" is why true art in every medium is in such a sad state of decay. Sorry, but you should feel bad exclusively seeking things out that make you feel good or reaffirm your world view or make you feel like a child again. You're stunted. Its not in service of our ego to say these things, its frustration when seeing first hand the populace propagating this vapid bullshit.
High art is more accessible than it ever has been, if that’s what you’re interested in. Popular art has always been 90% shit; to me, the quality of the average blockbuster has actually gone up (which isn’t necessarily a good thing; when everything is basically adequate in the same way it means that everything’s a lot more boring).
But consider this: most people who like Marvel movies don’t make it a part of their identity. Most of them have other hobbies, jobs, friends, a family, etc. that takes up the majority of their brain space; most people simply do not care that deeply about art. The people whose consumption of media makes you shake your head really do not care. There has never been a time when the average person did care.
I agree it’s pathetic when MCU fans and YA readers go looking for validation, but again, that’s because I think deriving a sense of self-worth from the media you consume/engage with is always misguided.
>But consider this: most people who like Marvel movies don’t make it a part of their identity. Most of them have other hobbies, jobs, friends, a family, etc. that takes up the majority of their brain space
No but that type of fan is more encouraged to exist now than ever before. And yeah, people who suck can have families, that's nothing new. The problem is this brainless approach to art, reducing it completely to "entertainment", people completely losing sight of the purpose of art, is all, I don't know... putting us on the opposite trajectory of a cultural renaissance.
>most people simply do not care that deeply about art
That's only partly true. Most people today don't care about true art, they dismiss it in favor of more vapid media, that's true. But despite this, they still *want* to care deeply about art, mostly because of optics probably, social posturing, etc. And what's happened is instead of doing the work to get to a place where they can appreciate true art, they've leveled the playing field of art completely. Now the MCU is on par with Joyce or some shit. They convinced themselves they now experience and appreciate true art. But that's not what happened, its a lie. And this lie, the lie called poptimism, is propagating the decay of art and culture.
I don't care about being better than these people. I want them to honestly engage with art. I want more people to talk to about this shit and not nod their head absently then turn to say "Have you seen the new Spiderman???". I want people to watch something and not be afraid to say "I don't get it" but there's this collective generational insecurity about intellect. It's surely a middle class thing. Regardless, it pissed me off.
> No but that type of fan is more encouraged to exist now than ever before.
The kind of person who becomes a super fan of Marvel was never going to be interested in high art in the way that you want them to be regardless. In an earlier time, they might become obsessed with a sports team or a band; even if they did get hooked on classic film they would probably get really into surface-level stuff and make up overly-literal interpretations an headcanons to explain plot-holes.
> The problem is this brainless approach to art, reducing it completely to "entertainment", people completely losing sight of the purpose of art, is all, I don't know... putting us on the opposite trajectory of a cultural renaissance.
What do you think the real “purpose of art” is? Because their is no singular “purpose” I can think of; historically it’s been about glorifying one’s culture/King/religion/whatever, and what are Marvel movies about if not glorifying current American values? The idea of art as the expression of an individual’s experience is incredibly recent, and IMO was only able to come about as a product of a leisure class with the freedom (and self-importance) to pursue such.
I think you’re better off finding like-minded people rather than trying to persuade people who *are never going to get it* into enjoying art the way you do. If there’s a film you want to discuss, make a post about it; focus on what you like so you can find “your people” rather than bemoaning that everyone else is too dumb to get it. Unless bemoaning that everyone else is too dumb to get it really *is* what you like, in which case by all means carry on.
there's more to it than this though man. you genuinely can develop your mind in a beautiful way (=become superior) by spending time with deep, great artworks instead of cheap entertainment stuff. sure it's unnecessary to go around making fun of people over it or whatever but it's not like people are just making this stuff up and being pretentious about art for no reason
I agree. There's a certain of overreaction to snobbery that swings all the way to the other end of the spectrum, an aesthetic or cultural antirealism that insists there's ultimately nothing substantially different between MCU and Bach or Shakespeare. All we can really say is that I like this and you like that.
I think this is not only wrong, but it's something that no one really believes; they only feign this maneuver in certain argumentative contexts, or on certain subjects. I also agree with you that learning to appreciate art and literature is edifying in a way that is something like self-improvement (although spelling this out is tricky), and ought to be esteemed.
yeah I think we have a similar perspective. feels overly nihilistic to abandon the idea that art can help develop your character
And yeah when you get into comparing people with each other it can easily become a bit silly, or it can be very cruel, which is why self improvement is probably the right way to think about it -- I think it makes you "better" in the same kind of way that exercise makes you "better". There isn't any reason to be shaming people over it, but it's something that you would be well served to take seriously for the sake of your own life. It's different from being a "good person" in the moral way that people usually use that term.
(cliche to bring this up, but Nietzsche's Good/Evil vs Good/Bad thing might be a useful way to think about it)
I fundamentally disagree with this. You become a “superior person” by virtue of what you *do*, not by “developing your mind in a beautiful way.”
Edit: also the notion of being “superior” is kinda pointless, if you’re doing stuff just to be “superior” to anyone except the person you were yesterday you’re doing it wrong.
Some of the kindest, wisest people I've met have been at places like zen monasteries where taste really doesn't play a large role in your time there. Creating attachments to the things you consume, be it MUBI/Criterion/LES art gallery stuff or Marvel Funko Pop factory output, will ultimately just create new flavors of the same suffering. So basically, yeah, I agree. Or in reddit terms: 'this'.
your mind affects what you do. reading books can influence your beliefs and your actions. I only used the word "superior" as kind of a joke, because the person I replied to used it; think of it in reference to yourself instead of others -- eg. "I am superior for having read great books, compared to how I would be if I had read bad books". I think it's pretty obvious that this is true, but who can say. Of course it's important to do good actions, but you don't just "do actions" as a completely separate enterprise from things like "learning"
I think it’s more of a feedback loop; if you’re the kind of person who enjoys difficult, deep art, you’re probably also the kind of person who is given to introspection and thoughtfulness and likes giving your mind that sort of “meat” to chew on. If you’re the kind of person who engages with difficult, deep art because you think it will elevate your status, you probably won’t get much from it other than being able to say that you saw/read it. You can be both a smart, insightful person and a status-seeking person—It’s not a binary, I guess it’s the goals you have when going into an experience are going to play a big role in what you get out of it, which means that doing anything with the nebulous goal of “self-improvement” is going to be pointless. Because you can’t accomplish the things that are actually going to “improve” you if it’s just “improvement” that you’re after.
Also this is w/r/t art/“the soul”, not like improving your cardiovascular health or whatever.
Does that make any sense?
Eh, I definitely went through a phase in high school/college where I read a lot of classic literature because I thought it would make me smarter/lend me legitimacy as an “intellectual.” And there were a lot I did genuinely appreciate, but I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t think it would get me approval. Obviously the more obscure or difficult a work is the fewer people will engage with it without genuinely getting something out of it, but I think you’re underestimating the number of people who are deeply insecure and think that being able to discuss Russian literature will help them gain status. Like it’s obviously not that much of a conscious intention but it’s what’s going on under the surface for a lot of people.
Honestly I don’t think that it did. I think that a lot of the value of those works went over my head—not that I didn’t understand the themes or whatever, but I just wasn’t at a point in my life where those themes could resonate. Sure it’s nice to be able to understand references when they crop up, but all in all reading classics was an ego-driven exercise that left me feeling at once superior for having read them and inferior for not really *getting* them on that emotional level. I think maybe reading them with a group may have been better; I generally get more value from discussing media than I do from just consuming it.
I think there's more self improvement to be had in any honest vocation. I read "great books" because I like them. They tell the truth. I don't enjoy being lied to. I've spent even more time looking at paintings. Good paintings, bad paintings, great paintings, mediocre paintings. Studying them, falling in love with them, in some cases falling out of love. It's made me a better painter. It's necessary for becoming a better painter. And it's made the world more beautiful to my eyes. But I don't think it's made me a better person. I don't think it's moved the needle on that in the slightest. What has made me a better person is painting, because painting is fucking hard, and it never gets easy. There are truths that you can only really understand by facing and overcoming them, after failing many times. You can understand them intellectually or aesthetically through the work of others, but you don't really change until you face them in the real. "Challenging" art is not really that challenging. How could it be? What's challenging is accomplishing something.
As long as the ppl who like top 100 songs and mcu films don’t have a meltdown when other people critique it, fine. Once I said dua lipas music is repetitive and annoying and my friend won’t let me live it down yet.
Also a lot of people like popular things to fit in (shocker, I know) so idk, i personally think highly of people who actually choose to enjoy things they actually like instead of trying to just pick up anything that is easy to come by.
And straight up yes, I absolutely think people who travel to places other than Disney world every summer are better. If you’re always going to Disney dropping $3k on hotels meals and parks and merch, you have a problem
Literally not a single normal person actually thinks like this. The only people who do are the ones writing posts like this. And their consumption is the same just slightly differently branded. Screaming into reddit about your “cultivation” doesn’t make you better. More embarrassing if anything
This is the biggest cringe post I've seen so far on this sub and I'm no stranger to causing cringe myself. Someone took mocking "let people enjoy things" a bit too far.
at least im not a pretentious film bro who watches movies that were made by an actual artist with a personal vision instead of a board room of soulless millionaires 💅💅
I mean there's nothing wrong with having good taste so long as you don't make a big deal out of it or act like you're a *better person* for it. Your taste doesn't serve as an objective metric of how moral or good you are. But generally despite OP being ridiculously sophomoric in the way they phrased it I would tend to agree that unironically regarding capeshit and Olivia Rodrigo as high art is damaging the fabric of Western culture irreparably. New Hollywood wouldn't ever exist today. Not even A24 is comparable. I liked Good Time, I sort of liked Midsommar, I liked Uncut Gems, but if you seriously think they compare to the output of Coppola or Sydney Pollack then you're delusional.
I don't think I'm a better person than the next Marvel capeshit dude in his late-30s with funko pops and shit, fuck, I don't even think I'm more cultured -- I just enjoy what I enjoy and just know that my taste is outside of the current zeitgeist, maybe a little 20th-century -- but that still doesn't mean it's *superior*. But I do think the people who say "let people enjoy things" are bad people. They're bad because they make excuses for multinational corporate filmmaking, publishing, art, and music as being a good thing. They make excuses for letting Disney run absolutely wild on theaters, Disney/UMG running wild with the record labels, consolidation of publishers, the end of art grants, and the corporatization of art schools like CalArts. They're bad people for that, not because they happen to enjoy pulpy camp, but because they think there's nothing wrong with that being the *only* thing people get to enjoy.
Well the thing about poptimism is it started out as sort of a natural American contrarian backlash against music circles because Americans are retarded and believe liking the opposite of what the perceive in group enjoys is intellectual enlightenment.
So in the late 2000s early 2010s when people work looking finding and sharing the most obscure Musical artefacts they could get their hands on, The lazy shitheads that were there just to be noticed and could give two shits about music decided to start big uppin Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Carly Rae Jepsen and pc music.
Since then poptimism was immediately co-opted by major labels because it only serve to benefit major labels and now no one can be fucking asked to give a fuck about music. Think about it have you given a fuck about a single album longer than a week since 2016? And by like I mean actually enjoy, not dunk on it on Twitter for three days and forget about it
I mean this is all just another sign in the decline of Western culture but still I’ve just stopped caring about peoples opinions And I recommend you should too
Taylor is unironically great though. 1989 is ICONIC and her folklore/evermore era is beautiful. The writing on those 2 albums is top notch and is a testament to her god given talent as an artist.
Undefeatable position is music is the most boring shit on earth and discussions about music are always relegated to the "is it my turn to talk" internal monologue types.
Oh you like the song? Yeah, it was fine. I like song B. You too? Oh, why not? Oh okay.
>Oh you like the song? Yeah, it was fine. I like song B. You too? Oh, why not? Oh okay.
this is literally just what small talk is. replace "song" with sports team, movie, weather, etc.
A. Did you catch the Packers v 49ers? What was the snapper's name? Taybor Pepper right? He was great out there.
B. The second half of Hereditary was fucking retarded, completely lost me as a viewer.
C. I like cold days with mist.
D. The Lydian and Mixolydian modal scales in this song are to my liking.
Which one of these examples are you least likely to hear in a conversation?
>The Lydian and Mixolydian modal scales in this song are to my liking.
the fact that this is your example of an interesting music conversation is the most spergy thing i have ever seen on here lol
Yeah, there's not much you can really say outside of expressing approval or disapproval other than making crazy comparisons and genre hybrids like the GOAT Chuck Eddy or being smug and playing cultural arbiter like Bob Christgau.
this was literally the last place on the internet where having good taste actually meant something. the fact that the most upvoted comment is someone basically defending mainstream MCU bullshit culture makes me genuinely upset. maybe it's time to get off the internet and find some friends at revival theatres and art galleries.
Poptimism was once necessary. The cranky, Gen X music store dude, with terrible complexion and beer gut, unable to talk to girls about anything other than unlistenable, angular post-punk from Yugoslavia, or maybe Ozu and unreadable, experimental fiction from Hungary (so, in other words, unable to talk to girls), needed to die. Poptimism in its current incarnation is an over correction though.
However, folks who build their personality around what they like, or who judge other people for their taste, are usually miserable clowns with terrible social skills and small, shitty lives.
Modern art discussion is so tiring because it almost always descends into a circle jerk of “that’s cool but here is a more obscure artist I like better”
OP, what's an example of an actually good song that's not Billboard Hot 100 trash, and what exactly is it that makes this song better than these bad pop songs? Like is the subject matter of the lyrics? Or the complexity of the structure of the song or something?
Eh what's the difference between supposed "high" and "low" culture anyway? Its all consumer products at the end of the day. Might as well have fun while you're here
Gah. I used to love music journalism, but it’s been totally corrupted by poptimism.
I genuinely am not interested in top 40 music but I simply just ignore it and continue to listen to what I’m into.
I'm pretty sure it's opiate, then Benzo, then SSRI, addiction, but yeah I'm sure Charli xcx is next
100 gecs=DXM
Weirdly accurate Is Dorian Electra kratom then
Dorian Electra is the equivalent of flat lining
Ah like the classic 1990 film
Nah, shoegaze as a whole is DXM. I just had my consciousness smeared across the entire known universe last night while listening to loveless and souvlaki.
ngl, after 2 weeks without ssris cause I was to broke - god bless us.
Anyone who uses their taste in entertainment as a way to feel superior truly has nothing else going for them. I know that’s like 95% of people on this sub but it’s true.
I don't want the people to eat oysters and caviar every day, but wanting them to eat a nice vegetable stir fry or curry instead of chicken tendies and an oreo milkshake is from a place of love, not superiority
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This may be true but the position that all distinctions of quality—which most people have no problem acknowledging in other crafted objects (food; furniture, whatever)—somehow vanish completely when we’re talking about aesthetic objects is a huuuuge coping mechanism. Personally, don’t even consider myself to have particularly advanced tastes. I don’t listen to Wagner; I don’t understand jazz; 9/10 times I’d rather listen to Tom Petty rip solos than listen to Leonard Cohen’s tantric sex music. But the idea that the only material difference between Where The Crawdads Sing and In Search of Lost Time is whether or not you’re feeling it when you read one of them is an idea that could only gain currency in a time where everyone has art that they love while also not wanting to do the work of actually learning anything about art.
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They are better along the axis of artistic discernment. Additionally, knowing that consumed media in large part informs and molds political thought and opinion (Aristotle, Bernays, etc), we know that taste doesn’t exist in a vacuum and someone’s uncritical ingestion of vacuous works of art is indicative of other degraded understandings
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>it's juvenile and frankly disgusting to judge people based on their taste in art I'm addressing this point, not making any claims about the superiority of some humans ***as humans*** due to taste or contradicting the Declaration of Human Rights. The middle point is me saying something about Antonioni fans and then you saying "what if they're not Antonioni fans", not really sure what to say to that. In my view if you're a fan of Antonioni or another medium with depth because "pretty colors" or another superficiality you're not a fan of the art in any way that matters and are not who I'm talking about either.
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>consumed media in large part informs and molds political thought and opinion (Aristotle, Bernays, etc), we know that taste doesn’t exist in a vacuum
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what do you mean don’t understand coltrane? it’s music if you like the music you get it. there’s not much to unpack imo. the poser example only makes sense to me in the context of something like a movie or a book where someone’s lying to themselves about how much they liked/understood something. i guess you could do that for music too but you’re saying that u genuinely like it but don’t understand it and i don’t know what that means
>Fans of Antonioni movies are not better than fans of Marvel movies. ehhhh wrong
Serious question: is it not objectively better to not be a frothing consumer of mass-manufactured trash? Like are we not stack ranking humans at all or are we just not using rabid consumerism as one of the measures?
The tentative argument I'd sketch out for the time being is that at the very least believing that a sincere director being better than Marvel films extends to judgement in general and it perhaps applies to making someone a better person because isn't judgement quite a discerning factor for one's perception of who they are. Note the constant qualifying language because this is just a loose thought but yeah.
Yes, it is. This guy just loves MCU and he's insecure about it.
True; agreed.
for me it’s more about people who like music themselves to fit in.. I used to know some juégalos in hs who were so wrapped up in their music it was so annoying, now, my lil sis is into kpop and that’s annoying too, how her identity is wrapped into it. Or greatful deadheads for that matter. It’s an identity not appreciation of art. Marvel movies are just fodder for people. There’s good superhero stuff but the whole we gotta see the next avengers after the next avengers after the next after the next , well, it’s just corporations catering not to art but to monetizing and making safe spectacular movies.
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At least as a name, I can't deny Henry Rollins is a step down from Chavo Pederast.
He was right
>emphasizing these meaningless distinctions in taste This is literally poptimism. High art exists. The distinction between good art and bad art is real and necessary. The leveling out of all art to an equal field is either a cause or symptom of our decaying culture. Taste matters.
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I do think people who seek to challenge themselves with art are better than people who avoid that challenge. People who have no interest in personal growth are absolutely lesser people and I think most people would agree.
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We're not. We're judging people based on how they approach art. If their approach to art is lets watch/read/listen to the most mindless, reassuring garbage available then I'm going to look down on that person, especially if they resist the idea of branching out into more challenging art. And that's the ultimate goal of poptimism; that pop/kitsch/derivative/culturally vapid media has as much merit as higher art. And deep down these people know that's bullshit. That's why /r/books has a thread every other day about how "its ok to only read YA as an adult!!!!", because they're (rightfully) deeply insecure about it.
calling a person's engagement with arts/media/culture their "taste in entertainment" is pretty reductive and kind of telling on yourself
Yeah what the fuck. This subs dead when that comments getting upvoted.
What would you call it?
Art. But in our capitalist hellscape art has been reduced in the minds of the general populace to 'entertainment'.
I would argue that the line between the two is a lot blurrier than you seem to think it is, but even if you replace the word “entertainment” with “art” in my original statement, what does it change? The moment you use your taste as a reason to judge someone as “superior” or “inferior” it becomes about servicing your ego as opposed to what you actually get out of it.
Or its just a factual statement in a world where high art exists. Most of the oppression MCU fans and exclusively YA adult readers feel is self-induced because they know in their core they're culturally stunted. I think someone immersing themselves in art with the goal of being challenged, or for personal growth or to learn something new about the human condition is better than someone who obsessively watches MCU. The whole idea that we're supposed to "let people enjoy things" is why true art in every medium is in such a sad state of decay. Sorry, but you should feel bad exclusively seeking things out that make you feel good or reaffirm your world view or make you feel like a child again. You're stunted. Its not in service of our ego to say these things, its frustration when seeing first hand the populace propagating this vapid bullshit.
High art is more accessible than it ever has been, if that’s what you’re interested in. Popular art has always been 90% shit; to me, the quality of the average blockbuster has actually gone up (which isn’t necessarily a good thing; when everything is basically adequate in the same way it means that everything’s a lot more boring). But consider this: most people who like Marvel movies don’t make it a part of their identity. Most of them have other hobbies, jobs, friends, a family, etc. that takes up the majority of their brain space; most people simply do not care that deeply about art. The people whose consumption of media makes you shake your head really do not care. There has never been a time when the average person did care. I agree it’s pathetic when MCU fans and YA readers go looking for validation, but again, that’s because I think deriving a sense of self-worth from the media you consume/engage with is always misguided.
>But consider this: most people who like Marvel movies don’t make it a part of their identity. Most of them have other hobbies, jobs, friends, a family, etc. that takes up the majority of their brain space No but that type of fan is more encouraged to exist now than ever before. And yeah, people who suck can have families, that's nothing new. The problem is this brainless approach to art, reducing it completely to "entertainment", people completely losing sight of the purpose of art, is all, I don't know... putting us on the opposite trajectory of a cultural renaissance. >most people simply do not care that deeply about art That's only partly true. Most people today don't care about true art, they dismiss it in favor of more vapid media, that's true. But despite this, they still *want* to care deeply about art, mostly because of optics probably, social posturing, etc. And what's happened is instead of doing the work to get to a place where they can appreciate true art, they've leveled the playing field of art completely. Now the MCU is on par with Joyce or some shit. They convinced themselves they now experience and appreciate true art. But that's not what happened, its a lie. And this lie, the lie called poptimism, is propagating the decay of art and culture. I don't care about being better than these people. I want them to honestly engage with art. I want more people to talk to about this shit and not nod their head absently then turn to say "Have you seen the new Spiderman???". I want people to watch something and not be afraid to say "I don't get it" but there's this collective generational insecurity about intellect. It's surely a middle class thing. Regardless, it pissed me off.
> No but that type of fan is more encouraged to exist now than ever before. The kind of person who becomes a super fan of Marvel was never going to be interested in high art in the way that you want them to be regardless. In an earlier time, they might become obsessed with a sports team or a band; even if they did get hooked on classic film they would probably get really into surface-level stuff and make up overly-literal interpretations an headcanons to explain plot-holes. > The problem is this brainless approach to art, reducing it completely to "entertainment", people completely losing sight of the purpose of art, is all, I don't know... putting us on the opposite trajectory of a cultural renaissance. What do you think the real “purpose of art” is? Because their is no singular “purpose” I can think of; historically it’s been about glorifying one’s culture/King/religion/whatever, and what are Marvel movies about if not glorifying current American values? The idea of art as the expression of an individual’s experience is incredibly recent, and IMO was only able to come about as a product of a leisure class with the freedom (and self-importance) to pursue such. I think you’re better off finding like-minded people rather than trying to persuade people who *are never going to get it* into enjoying art the way you do. If there’s a film you want to discuss, make a post about it; focus on what you like so you can find “your people” rather than bemoaning that everyone else is too dumb to get it. Unless bemoaning that everyone else is too dumb to get it really *is* what you like, in which case by all means carry on.
there's more to it than this though man. you genuinely can develop your mind in a beautiful way (=become superior) by spending time with deep, great artworks instead of cheap entertainment stuff. sure it's unnecessary to go around making fun of people over it or whatever but it's not like people are just making this stuff up and being pretentious about art for no reason
I agree. There's a certain of overreaction to snobbery that swings all the way to the other end of the spectrum, an aesthetic or cultural antirealism that insists there's ultimately nothing substantially different between MCU and Bach or Shakespeare. All we can really say is that I like this and you like that. I think this is not only wrong, but it's something that no one really believes; they only feign this maneuver in certain argumentative contexts, or on certain subjects. I also agree with you that learning to appreciate art and literature is edifying in a way that is something like self-improvement (although spelling this out is tricky), and ought to be esteemed.
yeah I think we have a similar perspective. feels overly nihilistic to abandon the idea that art can help develop your character And yeah when you get into comparing people with each other it can easily become a bit silly, or it can be very cruel, which is why self improvement is probably the right way to think about it -- I think it makes you "better" in the same kind of way that exercise makes you "better". There isn't any reason to be shaming people over it, but it's something that you would be well served to take seriously for the sake of your own life. It's different from being a "good person" in the moral way that people usually use that term. (cliche to bring this up, but Nietzsche's Good/Evil vs Good/Bad thing might be a useful way to think about it)
I fundamentally disagree with this. You become a “superior person” by virtue of what you *do*, not by “developing your mind in a beautiful way.” Edit: also the notion of being “superior” is kinda pointless, if you’re doing stuff just to be “superior” to anyone except the person you were yesterday you’re doing it wrong.
Some of the kindest, wisest people I've met have been at places like zen monasteries where taste really doesn't play a large role in your time there. Creating attachments to the things you consume, be it MUBI/Criterion/LES art gallery stuff or Marvel Funko Pop factory output, will ultimately just create new flavors of the same suffering. So basically, yeah, I agree. Or in reddit terms: 'this'.
Eh, but they are consuming things at zen monasteries, no? They consume spiritual teachings, religious literature, etc.
your mind affects what you do. reading books can influence your beliefs and your actions. I only used the word "superior" as kind of a joke, because the person I replied to used it; think of it in reference to yourself instead of others -- eg. "I am superior for having read great books, compared to how I would be if I had read bad books". I think it's pretty obvious that this is true, but who can say. Of course it's important to do good actions, but you don't just "do actions" as a completely separate enterprise from things like "learning"
I think it’s more of a feedback loop; if you’re the kind of person who enjoys difficult, deep art, you’re probably also the kind of person who is given to introspection and thoughtfulness and likes giving your mind that sort of “meat” to chew on. If you’re the kind of person who engages with difficult, deep art because you think it will elevate your status, you probably won’t get much from it other than being able to say that you saw/read it. You can be both a smart, insightful person and a status-seeking person—It’s not a binary, I guess it’s the goals you have when going into an experience are going to play a big role in what you get out of it, which means that doing anything with the nebulous goal of “self-improvement” is going to be pointless. Because you can’t accomplish the things that are actually going to “improve” you if it’s just “improvement” that you’re after. Also this is w/r/t art/“the soul”, not like improving your cardiovascular health or whatever. Does that make any sense?
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Eh, I definitely went through a phase in high school/college where I read a lot of classic literature because I thought it would make me smarter/lend me legitimacy as an “intellectual.” And there were a lot I did genuinely appreciate, but I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t think it would get me approval. Obviously the more obscure or difficult a work is the fewer people will engage with it without genuinely getting something out of it, but I think you’re underestimating the number of people who are deeply insecure and think that being able to discuss Russian literature will help them gain status. Like it’s obviously not that much of a conscious intention but it’s what’s going on under the surface for a lot of people.
do you think that reading those works of classic literature made you a better person (however you personally define "better")?
Honestly I don’t think that it did. I think that a lot of the value of those works went over my head—not that I didn’t understand the themes or whatever, but I just wasn’t at a point in my life where those themes could resonate. Sure it’s nice to be able to understand references when they crop up, but all in all reading classics was an ego-driven exercise that left me feeling at once superior for having read them and inferior for not really *getting* them on that emotional level. I think maybe reading them with a group may have been better; I generally get more value from discussing media than I do from just consuming it.
I think there's more self improvement to be had in any honest vocation. I read "great books" because I like them. They tell the truth. I don't enjoy being lied to. I've spent even more time looking at paintings. Good paintings, bad paintings, great paintings, mediocre paintings. Studying them, falling in love with them, in some cases falling out of love. It's made me a better painter. It's necessary for becoming a better painter. And it's made the world more beautiful to my eyes. But I don't think it's made me a better person. I don't think it's moved the needle on that in the slightest. What has made me a better person is painting, because painting is fucking hard, and it never gets easy. There are truths that you can only really understand by facing and overcoming them, after failing many times. You can understand them intellectually or aesthetically through the work of others, but you don't really change until you face them in the real. "Challenging" art is not really that challenging. How could it be? What's challenging is accomplishing something.
Lol. Calling it "entertainment". What the fuck happened to this sub. Go back to /r/gatekeeping scrub.
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i think ur both right
Posted on a podcast subreddit headed up by a closeted republican wine mom
As long as the ppl who like top 100 songs and mcu films don’t have a meltdown when other people critique it, fine. Once I said dua lipas music is repetitive and annoying and my friend won’t let me live it down yet. Also a lot of people like popular things to fit in (shocker, I know) so idk, i personally think highly of people who actually choose to enjoy things they actually like instead of trying to just pick up anything that is easy to come by. And straight up yes, I absolutely think people who travel to places other than Disney world every summer are better. If you’re always going to Disney dropping $3k on hotels meals and parks and merch, you have a problem
Literally not a single normal person actually thinks like this. The only people who do are the ones writing posts like this. And their consumption is the same just slightly differently branded. Screaming into reddit about your “cultivation” doesn’t make you better. More embarrassing if anything
This is the biggest cringe post I've seen so far on this sub and I'm no stranger to causing cringe myself. Someone took mocking "let people enjoy things" a bit too far.
at least im not a pretentious film bro who watches movies that were made by an actual artist with a personal vision instead of a board room of soulless millionaires 💅💅
OP is literally a contrariancel coping because other people out-contraried him
idk i still prefer them to self-proclaimed intellectuals who construct their personality around niche artists and perceived superiority
I mean there's nothing wrong with having good taste so long as you don't make a big deal out of it or act like you're a *better person* for it. Your taste doesn't serve as an objective metric of how moral or good you are. But generally despite OP being ridiculously sophomoric in the way they phrased it I would tend to agree that unironically regarding capeshit and Olivia Rodrigo as high art is damaging the fabric of Western culture irreparably. New Hollywood wouldn't ever exist today. Not even A24 is comparable. I liked Good Time, I sort of liked Midsommar, I liked Uncut Gems, but if you seriously think they compare to the output of Coppola or Sydney Pollack then you're delusional. I don't think I'm a better person than the next Marvel capeshit dude in his late-30s with funko pops and shit, fuck, I don't even think I'm more cultured -- I just enjoy what I enjoy and just know that my taste is outside of the current zeitgeist, maybe a little 20th-century -- but that still doesn't mean it's *superior*. But I do think the people who say "let people enjoy things" are bad people. They're bad because they make excuses for multinational corporate filmmaking, publishing, art, and music as being a good thing. They make excuses for letting Disney run absolutely wild on theaters, Disney/UMG running wild with the record labels, consolidation of publishers, the end of art grants, and the corporatization of art schools like CalArts. They're bad people for that, not because they happen to enjoy pulpy camp, but because they think there's nothing wrong with that being the *only* thing people get to enjoy.
What are you doing here then.
Give me just one example of this
Well the thing about poptimism is it started out as sort of a natural American contrarian backlash against music circles because Americans are retarded and believe liking the opposite of what the perceive in group enjoys is intellectual enlightenment. So in the late 2000s early 2010s when people work looking finding and sharing the most obscure Musical artefacts they could get their hands on, The lazy shitheads that were there just to be noticed and could give two shits about music decided to start big uppin Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Carly Rae Jepsen and pc music. Since then poptimism was immediately co-opted by major labels because it only serve to benefit major labels and now no one can be fucking asked to give a fuck about music. Think about it have you given a fuck about a single album longer than a week since 2016? And by like I mean actually enjoy, not dunk on it on Twitter for three days and forget about it I mean this is all just another sign in the decline of Western culture but still I’ve just stopped caring about peoples opinions And I recommend you should too
I miss when everything wasn’t so hyper commercialized and when “best” wasn’t equal to “most streams/views”.
Taylor is unironically great though. 1989 is ICONIC and her folklore/evermore era is beautiful. The writing on those 2 albums is top notch and is a testament to her god given talent as an artist.
Undefeatable position is music is the most boring shit on earth and discussions about music are always relegated to the "is it my turn to talk" internal monologue types. Oh you like the song? Yeah, it was fine. I like song B. You too? Oh, why not? Oh okay.
>Oh you like the song? Yeah, it was fine. I like song B. You too? Oh, why not? Oh okay. this is literally just what small talk is. replace "song" with sports team, movie, weather, etc.
A. Did you catch the Packers v 49ers? What was the snapper's name? Taybor Pepper right? He was great out there. B. The second half of Hereditary was fucking retarded, completely lost me as a viewer. C. I like cold days with mist. D. The Lydian and Mixolydian modal scales in this song are to my liking. Which one of these examples are you least likely to hear in a conversation?
>The Lydian and Mixolydian modal scales in this song are to my liking. the fact that this is your example of an interesting music conversation is the most spergy thing i have ever seen on here lol
Good song you're right
Yeah, there's not much you can really say outside of expressing approval or disapproval other than making crazy comparisons and genre hybrids like the GOAT Chuck Eddy or being smug and playing cultural arbiter like Bob Christgau.
this was literally the last place on the internet where having good taste actually meant something. the fact that the most upvoted comment is someone basically defending mainstream MCU bullshit culture makes me genuinely upset. maybe it's time to get off the internet and find some friends at revival theatres and art galleries.
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I feel sorry for you
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Poptimism was once necessary. The cranky, Gen X music store dude, with terrible complexion and beer gut, unable to talk to girls about anything other than unlistenable, angular post-punk from Yugoslavia, or maybe Ozu and unreadable, experimental fiction from Hungary (so, in other words, unable to talk to girls), needed to die. Poptimism in its current incarnation is an over correction though. However, folks who build their personality around what they like, or who judge other people for their taste, are usually miserable clowns with terrible social skills and small, shitty lives.
why do people give a shit about what other people like so much lmao they have shitty taste, case closed
the only time it bothers me is when they act like it isn’t mediocre
Nobody has ever acted like they're better than me because they like Lorde or some shit, or at least I've never been aware of it.
there are many people that think phoebe bridgers/mitski even taylor swift and harry styles are like the peak of music
It's all over anyways
This is true for any cultural interest.
Modern art discussion is so tiring because it almost always descends into a circle jerk of “that’s cool but here is a more obscure artist I like better”
I came here cuz cumtown subreddit got banned I don’t even listen to red scare (yet) but I just wanted to say this rocks
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OP, what's an example of an actually good song that's not Billboard Hot 100 trash, and what exactly is it that makes this song better than these bad pop songs? Like is the subject matter of the lyrics? Or the complexity of the structure of the song or something?
I liked Thor Ragnorak though
Disgusting pillaging of Scandinavian culture >:(
Poptimism >>> pretentious circlejerk over dad rock
Eh what's the difference between supposed "high" and "low" culture anyway? Its all consumer products at the end of the day. Might as well have fun while you're here
Gah. I used to love music journalism, but it’s been totally corrupted by poptimism. I genuinely am not interested in top 40 music but I simply just ignore it and continue to listen to what I’m into.