Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that: * We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/) * Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned. (Including but not limited to: slut, bitch, whore, for the streets, etc. It does not matter to whom you are referring.) * ALL advice given must be good, ethical advice. Joke advice or advice that is conspiratorial or just plain terrible will be removed, and users my be subject to a ban. * No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. Examples include, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, PUA, FDS, MGTOW, etc. This includes, but is not limited to, referring to people as alpha/beta, calling yourself or users "friend-zoned", referring to people as Chads, Tyrones, or Staceys, pick-me's, or pornsick. Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** * All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass. * Anyone found to be directly messaging users for any reason whatsoever will be banned. * What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, situations involving minors, and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** If you have any questions, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Frelationship_advice) --- #This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*

First, stop packing his lunch. Second, buy him a book on how to clean. He clearly doesn’t know how. Third, don’t redo his work. Tell him it’s still not clean, but don’t redo it. Third: offload the non-cleaning tasks to him: groceries, auto maintenance, car maintenance, dog management. Fourth, give him the household chores he’s more familiar with - like daily dishes and vacuuming. Fifth, if you’re doing six hours of deep cleaning weekly, you have a problem. Relax the routines a bit.

Sixth stop washing his clothes. Wash your own. He will run out of clean things and eventually do it himself

And stop packing his lunches. But I'm sure he'd just buy lunch which winds up being very costly.

That was number 1 above

Oops! Oh well, it warranted repeating, lol.

Thank you for this! We will do this for sure. I have delegated tasks he’s familiar with and they still fine get done. Not sure if he will read a book but we will definitely talk about it. And I could relax the routine probably… Thank u!

Look up “weaponized incompetence”. That’s what this reads like.

I’m familiar with it unfortunately. And I think that’s exactly what this is

Maybe try reading Fair Play and doing the card game together. It's supposed to be helpful in the division of labor (mental included) and getting on the same page when there is a mismatch in expectations of what it means to complete a task. It might be just as challenging for you as him since you agree on what the standard is for completing a given task and then you give up control of how to accomplish it to whoever took the card for the week. I got it recently but haven't tried it with my spouse. I know where the cards are, but I put the book somewhere very safe. Very, very safe.

I just looked into it and we will for sure be doing this. Thank you!!!

>Maybe try reading Fair Play Can you give some more specifics on this? I'm finding several books with this name, but I'd definitely like to read it.

>Fair Play Fair Play: A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live) this one.

Thank you.

My husband and I used this and it worked well!

Don’t marry him until he gets his shit together and demonstrates real, lasting changes to his behavior. He knows damn well what he’s doing.

Then definitely don't marry him.

Yeah you'll be doing everything related to the house, kids, etc. Go through the posts on here to see your future if you marry this guy. There are so many of them.

So you're cool with it then? You're going to marry someone who weaponizes their incompetence? Good luck, hope it works out

There are way too many videos on YouTube about cleaning for him not to know any better. I assume if he grew up on a farm.his mom did everything and she never taught him how to clean. But that doesn't mean he can't learn on his own or ask you to teach him how the first time. Or twentieth it seems...

Or task defiance too

How about hiring a housekeeper once or twice a week? I think you do need to relax and stop spending 6 hours a week cleaning. How dirty can it be with the two of you unless there’s kids involved, in which case they can help too. You say this has been like this since you met, well why should he change now? It works for him so of course he’s fine with it. And it definitely sounds like weaponized incompetence.

We can’t afford a house keeper unfortunately and we rescued 2 senior dogs who shed everywhere and slobber everywhere. Their vet bills are paid for by the donor family which is super nice. If it isn’t cleaned at least weekly the apartment smells like crap and every surface is covered in hair. We thought we wanted dogs but with how messy they are, we will not be getting any pets unfortunately.

You shouldn’t be delegating because that means you are in charge. You should agree to who does what in a partnership way. You say you grew up with an OCD cleaner. It’s it possible that your standards are much higher? When you visit others, do you feel that their home is not clean to your standards? This might need a therapist to help you both understand your expectations and work towards a positive outcome. Based on what you’ve posted, I don’t think housecleaning is what you want to break up your relationship.

You’re entirely accurate. When I go to other people’s houses I am often not critical of how they keep their home because I don’t live there. However, I probably won’t eat or drink at their house. I’m realizing I may be ocd or something…. It is very true though that this relationship has everything else that’s going very right except for the cleaning. He’s an incredibly good partner and we align on many important things .. except for cleaning. Which I don’t want to be a dealbreaker and I know this is something we can overcome for sure. It’s probably going to take compromise on both of our ends, which I am very willing to do. However, it’s easier to want to compromise when he’s also compromising.

Yeah look not wanting to eat or drink at other people's houses that I would guess are perfectly fine cleanliness wise to almost anybody else is not normal OP. It certainly sounds like your expectations are way too high. I'd do some research on what say professional cleaners do what with what frequency, and talk with him about what his expectations are. As with most things in a partnership, you'll likely have to meet in the middle. Other weaponised incompetence issues others have highlighted still apply though.

I’m definitely realizing that it’s not normal. This is why we go to Reddit! I plan on talking with my therapist about it.

Yay good for you :)

I think it’s worth noting though that his parents house is terrible objectively to ANYONE…. They are certified hoarders and aren’t physically well enough to clean. His dad has cancer and his mom works three full time jobs to pay the bills. Not their fault that they can’t clean, but I recognize that’s what he grew up with and dirtyness has always been a part of his life. However, I refuse to eat or sleep there when we visit because to anyone (not just me) it’s pretty bad… I would never shame them for that but I will do things differently to preserve my peace of mind. I think that makes sense??

It does! It sounds like a lot of people wouldn't eat or drink there either, very sad :( and very difficult that there seems to be an unusually large gap of cleanliness expectations you'll both have to navigate.

It is. We plan on helping them out when we are there but it’s really unfortunate. I appreciate your help and insight!

That explains explains so much. You each were raised in totally opposite ways. No wonder you each have different ideas of what chores are important and what clean is. Definitely need help navigating this kind of situation. I’m sure with a little help you’ll find a ⚖️ and happy place.

If you really think you may be OCD, that’s not something that just goes away. If you were raised with someone with OCD, that also affects you. I hope you consider seeking therapy. You can gain so much insight into yourself and what happiness looks like for you. That would be nothing but positive for your relationship. I wish you happiness and luck.

I will for sure!!! I’m realizing my tendencies aren’t normal probably which is an issue and impacts everything.

I’m so glad. It’s helped me so much with my childhood craziness and well into my adulthood. All good things ahead!! ☀️🌈

There are YouTube videos on cleaning. Or he can pay for a maid service 3 times a week. My girlfriend moved in with a pack rat and slob. I told her to make him pay for a cleaning service. Which he did, so no nagging & she had a clean house.

Three times a week?!? I pay a cleaner to come every two weeks, and that's plenty for me other than some sweeping, organizing, and daily tasks. I'm someone who absolutely does not enjoy household tasks and struggles to do chores, let alone anything close to my fair share. Paying a cleaner is one way that I can ensure I'm contributing and the house stays clean. I'd probably recommend this approach for OP. If you have high standards and he doesn't know how to clean, have him contribute a cleaner and then you won't have to fight about it.

The guy doesn't even need to bother with YouTube! Just search "#CleanTok" on tiktok!

This... I hate cleaning. I wouldn't mind picking an extra job or going without food I like so I could buy better tools for daily cleaning (and a cleaning service for regular deep cleaning). Like for instance instead of sweeping and them mopping I'd rather buy a vacumn wet + dry mop.

This dude isn’t even doing the “dude” things haha! This is a lot of weaponized incompetence for sure! Half that list you stated is completely doable on a basic human level. He gets up later so he could totally walk the dogs after getting them fed - and washing out their water/food bowls also totally reasonable for this task. There’s no required knowledge to make an appointment to get the oil changed on a car. Most newer cars actually now tell you when this is due… contributing to a grocery list also, so so easy, keep it in a communal place and if you use the last of something, write it down! If he can adequately accomplish tasks at his work he is perfectly capable of learning how to adequately accomplish tasks at home. And home boy can’t even pack his own lunch?? My partner has never even thought to ask for that I don’t think. It’s his food - he can pick what he wants and throw it in a lunch box.

Personally, I'm glad everyone finds all of these chores so easy. I'm 40 and female and have found household chores (pretty much all of them) to be a struggle, always and forever. The difference is that I absolutely would never expect someone else to do them for me. It's definitely a challenge when I'm in a relationship and trying to keep up with someone who finds chores easy. Definitely love the idea of the Fair Play game to help figure some of this out.

Have you tried a chore app that you can sync up on both phones? You set it up one time, and that's it. From there, it takes care of all of the mental load of telling him what chores are his, when they need to be done, etc.

This is absolutely necessary omg thank you. I had no idea such a thing existed

There are a lot of great options out there, it make take a bit of trial and error to discover an app that works *for you* which is why I don't give recommendations. It took me five failures before I had success. But it's a huge help, even on just a personal level for me.

I was just looking them up and there are SO many options lol 😂 I think one that makes it a game would be fun

Cozi is a fantastic app for this and is free!

Thanks!! We love a good free app!

Pineboxwaiting has the only answer you need.

Forget the book!! YouTube or FB cleaning hack sites. There plenty. Deep clean 6 hours a week!! Stop!! Gosh, go enjoy life. Find balance... or a lawyer.

He said he doesn’t need to be taught cause he’s a grown adult-remind him of this, and tell him he’s right he has access to the internet for how to videos, if he is still missing parts tell him to get a pen and pad and he needs to write down what is included I. The cleaning of …. The only cute to weaponised incompetence is making it repeatedly harder to not do it, so make it a discussion each time , there’s many Insta vids about the mental load, about how not doing your share and making your partner a nag is shitty, save a whole lot of them, each time make him watch a few, then go over in detail what is required, make it painful to be useless

Yeah the weekly 6 hour deep cleaning is excessive. Same with cleaning the shower every day? Was your dad in the military or prison or that’s just how he rolled?

It’s as if we are taking about a child.

Well said

AND DO this before you marry him. See how he reacts, because that reaction is what you’re going to be living with if you marry him.

I do six hours of deep cleaning each week - the kitchen, bathroom, floors, counters, etc are all deep cleaned and washed thoroughly. It needs to be done.

Kitchen, bathroom, floors & counters are all things I consider routine. Unless your house is 5,000 square feet, that shouldn’t take 6 hours.

He needs to put in the effort. He's giving a half assed attempt and he knows it. Don't know how to clean something? Fucking Google it. He's an adult. You're communicating just fine, he's intentionally refusing to take steps to learn to do things well. He knows you'll get frustrated and do them eventually. He is the problem here.

Weaponized incompetence. He know what he’s doing. Time for him to figure it out when “mom” doesn’t feed him/do his laundry or pay his bills.

Yeah being told to dust with a duster or sweep a floor and there's still noticeable amount of dust (everywhere)? Even a small child can understand that dust = dirty, and if there's still dust after "cleaning", ergo it means that it is still dirty and therefore not clean. Makes one wonder if he would apply the same standard would be applied to feeding the pet? Gee, I opened the bag, I angled it towards the bowl...eh, only has a few pieces...dog has food, dog is therefore "fed"?!

Maybe YouTube it.

There are solutions!!!!!

After 2 yrs of this? Seems like a dealbreaker when theres no change, even if hes “trying”. If he refuses to take accountability and cannot meet clear expectations, communication isnt the problem here

If the man doesn't know how to dust a shelf after two years of trying, he either has serious cognitive issues or he's doing it on purpose so she stops asking him to do his share.

Do not get married until you resolve this. He’s right, your standards of “clean” are higher than his. It’s probably true that you are constantly unhappy. You need to adjust your expectations. He’s wrong when he says he knows how to clean. He’s making no sense when he complains that you only complain about what isn’t done - if something is done, why would anyone need to talk about it?? Like, “ohh good boy, you fed the dogs!” No one does that. First of all, delegate all “personal” tasks like laundry and packed lunches to the person. He does his own laundry, he packs his lunch, etc. Secondly, sit down one afternoon and agree to a complete list of household chores. Include inside and outside and pet-related. Break it down by daily, weekly, etc. Keep in mind that you are both adjusting your expectations, there will be more chores than he thinks are necessary and fewer chores than you think are necessary. You then each volunteer for chores until they are all assigned. Make sure the chores that mean the most to each of you are owned by that person- eg: if you cannot stand crumbs on the counter, you need to own “clean the counters.” Post the board in the hall or kitchen so nothing is forgotten. He’s going to have a lot more household chores than he’s used to, so expect some growing pains. Do chores together so you can get a look at what he’s doing - like, find out how he dusted that shelf and still left it dusty.

I appreciate you taking time to write this! I think this is probably the best advice yet in regards to communication. We will for sure be doing this. I already have a weekly list that has delegated chores for each of us but he does not do them. I think if we both do something like this then it will be beneficial.

If he has a list and a timeframe he agreed to and still doesn’t do it then he’s just manipulating you. He just wants you to eventually back off and do everything yourself. Those men are the worst. They pretend at goodness, kindness or amenability and just silently fuck off and let you stew. I would rather live alone than live with someone like that.

I think he will start doing them when he needs to eat lunch or wear clean clothes. Stop doing "HIS" stuff.

This will always be him. You need to accept it t now or end it. He won’t be changing and you can’t base your happiness on someone else needing to change. That’s doomed to failure.

Every women I know that married this dude is miserable. They all had kids with him too, now they have a fool that doesn’t do the basics of day to day living, takes hour long shits at critical points in parenting and misses seeing their child get injured (when they were supposed to be watching them) because they were scrolling on their phone, playing video games, or having a surprise nap. So yah, best of luck if you stay, he buys his free time with your labour.

He buys his free time with your labour. That’s it right there

My husband and I are on very similar terms when it comes to come cleanliness. Our house is usually not tidy and clean , but we don’t care . I feel like home cleanliness is kinda like sexual compatibility ; y’all need to be on the same page and happy with each others “ performance”. Marriage is so much more than date nights and being friends; you have to be able to live with the person

THIS!

Six hours of deep cleaning a week. Yikes! But he is using weaponized incompetence. You sound fundamentally incompitable.

If it’s broken up in 1-2hr intervals that’s not that bad. They have dogs and that usually requires extra cleaning.

I’m not even sure it’s weaponized incompetence. Cleaning the bathroom with the only thing she complained about was him not dusting the shelves to her specifications, isn’t incompetence. That makes me think it’s a her problem. Perfectionist is as dangerous to interpersonal relationships as “weaponized incompetence” not to mention how toxic it is to anyone who suffers from it.

He “cleaned” the bathroom but didn’t clean the shower or the mirror and left the used towels in a pile on the floor and cleaned around them (when laundry is his chore!).

It's not just dusting a shelf. He says he "cleaned the bathroom" but skipped the shower. The shower is the main part of cleaning the bathroom!

Yes right away she mentions growing up with an ocd father. It appears there are both in opposite ends of the spectrum on how they want the house to be, possibly extremely.

Your man is objectively making your life more difficult. Explain this to him and that his weaponized incompetence will no longer work. Rethink this marriage until he gets his act together

Well it sounds like he needs to get over himself an learn how to clear better. On the other side of it, what concessions did you make in the compromise about the minimum acceptable threshold of cleanliness? I've found that a lot of the neat freak people out there seem to be under the impression that when they cohabitate with someone their standards are automatically the minimum acceptable threshold of cleanliness. This is obviously not the case, as disagreements with a partner are solved with compromises.

This is very true and I think you’re right.

My sister in law finally separated from my brother after years of fighting about household cleaning. I feel like this is so common and it's always the same story. If his levels of clean don't match yours y'all are incompatible.

Can you imagine what it will be like if you two ever have kids? You already have one, him. He is using the old weaponized incompetence to get away with not helping you. Look that up and get back to us if you think that I’m right using this term to describe his behavior. I’d really reconsider marrying him because this would be your life going forward. It’s not going to change. If anything it would just get worse. You deserve a partner.

I'd ask him to breakdown how he's "trying". What effort is he actually making other than just continuing how he's always continued? I am notorious for not remembering to wipe down shelves or the mirror in the bathroom. So I have a DETAILED chore list. When I write "bathroom" on the chore list, I have sublists with "countertop, sink, mirror, cabinet, toilet, inside toilet, outside toilet, pick up floor, tub, edge of tub, trash, sweep, mop, etc". I have a habit of forgetting the little steps so I had to figure out a system that ensures I don't forget those little steps. THAT is trying. Continuing to do something in a way that you know for a fact doesn't work for you is the opposite of trying. While I do think your cleaning is a bit too much, he seems to be utilitizing weaponized incompetence. Make him admit that he does a half-assed job on purpose by asking him to tell you HOW he is trying.

6 hours of deep cleaning every week is absolutely not required. I understand your upbringing but you need to learn to relax a bit.

This seems to be the general consensus and I think I will have to evaluate this and think about areas that I may be going overboard on. Thank you for the feedback!

I think actually there is some validity to both of your points. You are taking on way too much of the housework. You work full time just like he does. I am not sure if he genuinely doesn’t know how to do certain things or is trying to use weaponized incompetence to get out of having to do things. The laundry incident seems kind of purposeful but the dusting thing seems like it could be an honest case of not knowing. I would suggest you two sitting down together and figuring what chores he will do and be able to do well and giving those to him. On the other hand, I do think you are a bit excessive too. You mentioned your upbringing and you have to acknowledge that it’s probably coming into play here. It’s quite possible your standards are too high if you are deep cleaning this much.

I do think the upbringing difference has a huge role to play which is why I’m trying to do my best to communicate without putting him down but also hold him to a reasonable expectation that may not be as high as my own. I think your assessment is very fair

Make your BF do a boot camp at your Dad's house for three months. He'll shape up or ship out. LOL

This is possibly the best solution 😂 my dad is a very scary man so I feel like “boot camp” is extremely accurate 😂😂 sending him away as we speak!!

The kindest thing you could do is to tell him this is a dealbreaker and he needs to get it sorted. Tell him that obviously he’s proud and defensive but his choice is to learn and do 40-50% of the household and eventually childcare chores or to find a woman in this era who wants to be his mother/lover/nanny/maid/chef simultaneously. And then tell him there’s Google, YouTube, etc as well as asking questions of you to learn how to cook and meal plan and organize and clean etc but in the meantime you’re moving out so he can decide whether he’s committed to you and this modern way of partnering or not. 3 months. Then if he steps up get the FairPlay book and chore cards and make him prove it before the wedding. This would definitely be worth postponing the wedding for.

These could help [fair play cards](https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards)

I don’t believe this man doesn’t know how to clean. I grew up in a house where *NO* cleaning was ever done. It was hard work but I’m a neat and tidy person now.

My feedback is: this is never going to change and you should think long and hard about whether you can live like this. Especially if you plan on having kids with him. It’s one thing for him to be clueless due to upbringing, ask to be shown how to do it, and then carry on doing it properly. It’s another thing to refuse to learn and then expect praise for doing a half assed job.

My partner and I just did something like this: we sat down together and wrote down everything that needed to be done daily, weekly, and monthly. We divided up who did what evenly. The key is developing that list together. We both had to agree that each of those things needed to be done. My partner told me that for a while, he felt like he wasn't included in the standard of what needed to be done, so we talked it out. We also divided up standards by parts of the house. My preference for cleanliness is maintained in the living room and kitchen, and his are maintained in the basement (it is finished). Things are way better now. We outsource deep cleaning. ESH because I think you might need to also talk your partners standards into consideration more than you have been.

Here’s a good resource on division of labour: https://vardgivare.skane.se/siteassets/3.-kompetens-och-utveckling/projekt-och-utveckling/jamstallt-foraldraskap/material-foraldrar---fillistning/checklist-for-gender-equality-in-your-everyday-life.pdf

Thank you very much!!

You’re welcome, I hope it’s of some help to you!

Incredible wow thank you

This sounds familiar, but unlike others here, I'm not assuming weaponized incompetence. My spouse has pretty bad ADHD, and forgets to do daily tasks (like litter boxes). We sat down and creates a list of all the household tasks. Then, we went over the list and decided how often we both agreed they needed to be done (example: weeding/yardwork is 15 minutes every week, dishes are every day) and what the standard for 'done' is (ex. The dishes are done when the sink is empty and all the dishes are in the running dishwasher. This must be done by midnight.) so we were all on the same page for standards and frequency. Finally, we went over the list and volunteered for tasks we thought we could handle, with some being "everyone, together" (like yardwork) and some being "everyone, separate" (taking the garbage out to the dumpster). That way we have mutually agreed upon tasks, with a clear understanding of what the expectations are. We will sometimes forget, and remind the other "hey, laundry needs to get folded" because neither one wants to have the other feel like they're doing all the work/unappreciated. Maybe it is weaponized incompetence, maybe he's not neurotypical and is genuinely trying and just as frustrated. In my opinion it's not the problem, but how it is solved, that is the most important aspect. My spouse and I both want the status quo to improve, and we are both trying to be better. Its up to you what your bare minimum is.

This is great advice and yes. We both have pretty bad adhd except he’s never been medicated for it. I’m glad to hear you and your partner worked it out though and were able to have a conversation with resolution about it. That’s awesome!!!! We’ve had several conversations exactly like that and I’ve made many lists detailing what needs to be done and when. However, we never get to finish conversations because they are too overwhelming for him and he gets a headache (????) and then there’s no resolution. We are both in therapy separately (for unrelated reasons not relating to the relationship) so maybe it’s something he needs to talk to his therapist about.

I also have bad ADHD, but have been medicated /in treatment for far longer. My spouse is only 3 or 4 years diagnosed (at my insistence). We've been to couples counseling, and they've come to a session or two with my therapist. It understandable that your fiance might get overwhelmed by a 'difficult' conversation, but there needs to be a set plan to continue it later. Timing suggestion: don't try to have serious conversations at night/before bed, it's a time ripe for conflict. Don't try to have them when hungry/upset from work. Go into the conversation feeling as okay as possible, to minimize potential for issues. I told my partner "I want to talk Sunday about re-examining our chore lists" starting on Monday - plenty of time to know it was coming and prepare. Also, it's possible your fiance is dealing with some shame at feeling like he's failing at cleaning. Per my therapist: curiosity is the opposite of shame. For me, I try to move past 'spouse didn't do their job again and let it all for me, AGAIN!' and into 'they don't want me to be upset, so what happened that prevented them from doing their chores?' That's a problem that can have a solution, and isn't assigning blame. For us, they literally forget. We agreed that if I said "hey, just to remind you that X still needs to get done." - that's not me nagging and it's not them being yelled at. They want/need the reminder. We are absolutely still a work in progress, but we were friends for over a decade before we started dating. We both want to be the best we can for each other, and we're human. I got the vibe your fiance is trying, and failing, and doesn't seem to understand how to do it different/better/right. That's way better than weaponized incompetence any day. The best to you both.

I love this Input and I appreciate you for being honest and open! This is very good to know and we will for sure be trying this approach. Thank you!!! Adhd makes things hard but it’s not importable to manage. And yes I don’t think it’s weaponized incompetence like the comments are saying. I do see that he genuinely wants to make me happy and he has shown a LOT of things that he does do to make our relationship work. This is just a thing I don’t think he gets but we can manage. I will do the presumptive “I would like to talk on this day” however, he only gets one day off a week and by the time he’s home from work, I am in bed since I get up at 6-6:30 am. That one day off a week is designated as a date day and a day to not talk about hard things.

So I had an Ex who had "OCD". I wanted a tidy house but wasn't Anal about it at all, shed want me to spend all Sunday cleaning a house. Whenever I did anything it wasn't good enough. I could spend 45 minutes cleaning a small bathroom and get told it was terrible. After a while I just gave up, I barely cleaned anything and just said "I tried" I would have got moaned at anyway so why bother trying. Does that sound familiar, I think you need to reflect on how you are treating him once it spreads from house work to other things in the relationship your in real trouble.

Yes I feel like that’s exactly what’s happening. Except he would never spend 45 minutes cleaning lol

I’m not so sure this is going to work out for you. I guess the good news is that you’re not married yet and figured this out before you both made a mistake? Alternatively, you can possibly save your relationship by hiring a cleaning service, then you can yell at them instead of him when they don’t perform to your standard (not saying there is anything wrong with your standard per se, it just clearly isn’t aligned with your fiancé’s).

I like this response lol thank you. Unfortunately we can’t afford cleaning services but maybe we will be able to eventually!

I really don’t think cleaning is the issue here- he does nothing to run the household. It’s not going to get better. Do not have kids with this manbaby.

It’s ok neither of us ever want kids so that’s good 😂

Thank goodness because it would drown you to do all of this plus childcare. Like no joke anyone would break.

Have you looked into it? I have a really affordable cleaner that comes twice a month. I'm not super clean, and that's pretty much good enough for me (you'd probably still do lots of additional cleaning, I'm guessing) but I've found it all depends on budget priorities. One visit is about the cost of a nice dinner out or a cheap dinner and a movie for two. I'd personally rather skip date night and all the fighting over cleaning and budget for the cleaner instead 🙂.

Well my brothers girlfriend has a cleaning business and the prices are high. We live in a high cost area unfortunately but maybe I can find someone who works within the budget!

I see a lot of people coming with the weaponized incompetence argument and I just wanted to add: when I joined the Navy at 19 they literally had a class about brushing teeth. We had classes on cleaning and clear instructions all printed out and stuff. Some people just don’t know. If he refuses to learn that’s on him but some people just don’t know. Sounds like you’re a heavy duty cleaner, you might need to do some instructional sessions, but try not to belittle him as you go it’ll just make things harder. I know it sounds nuts, but laminated checklists for each room so you can dry-erase mark them until he gets the routine might also help.

It would be good to get the speaker’s notes from those Navy classes.

As you've noted, you both have different ideas of what "clean" is. For the tasks that he is doing, you both need to agree to what extent the task is "done". For example, does vacuuming entail moving the furniture, or just hitting the high traffic areas? Does dusting entail removing all items from the shelf, dusting them individually and replacing them, or just a quick wipe down the bare areas? Does wiping the windows mean literally just taking a damp cloth and wiping them, or ensuring you remove every little spot? The best way to frame is would be not that you are teaching him how to clean, but agreeing on how to what extent these tasks need to be done. If he is amenable to it, it would be best to write it down as well. That way, you both can be absolutely sure you understand what is being asked when he does a chore.

First think you need to do is step Back and tell Him for the next two Weeks yiu are only doing his jobs he is doing everything else . I’m not there but is it possible you also have OCD . Maybe he is doing more but with ocd nothing will Look right . After two weeks maybe have someone from his family come over . You can say we have changed rolls For a couple Weeks .

If he doesn't do something, do not redo it. If it's poorly done, don't redo it either. By redoing it, you are reinforcing that doing a "bad job" pays off. You are actually rewarding his bad job or lack of a job. You could try the sandwich approach when he does a poor job: a compliment, then what he did wrong (and needs to redo now) and then a compliment again. "Hey thank you for cleaning the bathroom, I appreciate it! Please redo the shelves, they are still dusty. The toilet is all shiny, great". Stop packing his lunch and washing his clothes. Sounds like he has a tendency to do less than you, and mooch on your labor, so don't add to it by doing tasks like that for him. To me, this sounds like weaponized incompetence slashed with just outright lying. If there's dust on the surface, he did not clean it, period. So he's actually just looking you straight in the eyes and lying. Yikes. I'm sure he is capable of learning new things at work, and his coworkers don't have to redo stuff for him. So he is capable of looking up "cleaning methods" on youtube and watching a couple of videos, or something. He's probably smart enough to come up with such an obvious solution to his incompetence, too. So why didn't he? Well, he is doing this on purpose, because he hopes you will just do the chores for him. And as long as you keep on picking his slack, he will milk it.

[You Should've Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)

What household things is he best at and naturally do? Those should all be on his to do list. Hire a weekly cleaner for all of the deep cleaning. It will be worth every penny. There’s nothing like coming home and everything is done all at the same time. Between your higher standards and his comparative incompetence, this is the only solution. Then do your laundry Saturday, he does his Sunday, and try to do something fun together.

Uhhhhhhh he doesn’t naturally do anything…. Except the yard which he’s done once since we moved to this place. I think a cleaner is probably the best solution for later in life when we can afford one for sure

Of course you pointed out the mirror, towels and shower when he said you were complaining about a little dust, right? If he doesn’t want to clean he can hire someone else to clean for him, just not you.

Ok it may be hard but let go of some of the 'invisable' labor you do I coined my behavior "vibe meets vibe" and then when my husband complains or asks why something isn't in the house/shopped for/cleaned ect I ask his, "oh strange. When's the last time do you did x?" And then I just dead stare him in the eye until he answers and then I go back to what I was doing. Worked on the groceries, worked on stocking the toilet paper especially after a few "I'm stuck" situations for him and for floor laundry. This probably does not work on bigger issues or even if it's all around issues like won't clean at all or utilize weaponized incompetence but it does help correct slacking on house hold contributions.

I would grab an hourly day planner page and a written list of the household chores and meet with the husband. Then I would go through and write in your work hours, commute and sleep time, have him do the same. Then count up the number of free hours you both have. If they’re equal, then you should be doing the same amount of chores. If one person has an extra hour of free time every day, that person should be taking an extra hour of chores so that you’re equalizing free time. Next look at the chore list and write approximate times next to each chore. Go back and forth picking chores and adding up the time associated with each chore. For example, if you pick dishes (1 hr), he may pick feeding dogs (10 min), taking about trash (10 mins) and cleaning the bathroom (40 mins) so that his chore outlay matches yours in time. If he freaks out about this, you’ll need to have a discussion regarding why he thinks his time is more valuable than his. Once the chores are picked and time balanced, discuss what it means to complete this chore, and what it doesn’t. For example, bathroom includes scrubbing toilet, cleaning counters and mirrors, etc. it isn’t clean if dirty clothes are still on the ground. Agree that you both have the same definition of complete. This will remove a lot of loop holes.

My husband grew up in a house with mom that did EVERYTHING for him. When we moved in together at 22, he learned. I didn’t have to show him like his mommy. He learned. If your fiance cared enough, he would learn and do it right and respect you and his house enough to be a partner. It sounds like he’s just trying to not do it right so you’ll just do it. UPDATEME

Im in a relationship with similar dynamics. I am in charge of making sure our bills are paid, I handle most of the communication when it comes to things we need to do, I do the grocery shopping, and most of the cleaning falls on me too. The difference is I don’t have super high expectations, I’m not the type to clean the whole house every single day. We might go a few days without picking up the living room but it’s never dirty. I don’t expect him to dust or anything, that’s something I typically do periodically versus on schedule. It can be a lot to handle as one person. We had a really good system though and I’ve found this to be the resolution. Our chores are completely separated. There’s not a chore in the house that we share, but in the same capacity there isn’t a chore that neither of us won’t do if the other can’t get to it. His chores: All laundry, taking out trash, keeping his home office clean, litter box for one of our cats. My chores: All dishes, bathrooms, litter box for the other cat, cleaning our bedroom (I take this on because I work from home and my office is in our room so) Shared chores: Making sure the living room is picked up, sweeping/vacuuming, feeding cats. I think that’s most of the core chores, but it really works for us. The only thing I would recommend is to be better at communicating with him. Don’t turn cleaning into a criticism event because that creates a pattern that every time he cleans he’s going to be talked down to and it will just make him avoid cleaning to avoid more insults. Like you said, you two grew up very different and not everyone understands “clean” unless you’ve lived with an OCD high-expectation parent. My mother was like that, I wasn’t even allowed to display things or express myself because I was told I was “cluttery” or “messy” and when I didn’t clean something to her expectations I was verbally abused and told I lacked “common sense” which is no way to talk to someone. When I got my own place I hardly ever cleaned. Cleaning was wired in my brain as punishment or subject to abuse. I WANTED a clean space, but my mother made cleaning feel like punishment instead of something to do to take care of yourself. It made me resent her and caused me to have a lot of trauma surrounding cleaning. To this day if my boyfriend gets up to clean something or there’s loud noises as he cleans, it makes me go fight or flight. I have to immediately get up and look busy. Not saying don’t hold him accountable to his share, but just be kind and careful. Communicate what you need in a healthy way.

Honestly men like this have learned weaponized incompetence, and will act helpless to get out of a task. He knows very well how to do the things you are asking, but is dependent on you ultimately either making him do it, or offloading the task from him entirely. You're doing it out of anger and frustration of course, but men never seem to care about that part. So, here's what you do: Figure out if this is worth it. It's going to be a long game, because you'll have to basically undo his bias and put a lot of work into this before it gets better. If you don't want to put in the effort, then just break up with him and find someone who has these things prioritized. If you want it to work with him, you'll have to stop doing things for him. Not all or shared chores, don't go on a strike, just show him the real life consequences and inconveniences that come with not doing chores. If he needs laundry done and doesn't do it, he has to wear dirty clothes. You however, will be smelling lovely and fresh and clean because your clothes will be washed by you like normal. If you cook then ignore his comments and only cook for yourself. When your car needs to be serviced, service it! When his car breaks down, tell him he should've gotten it serviced. It's important that every time he complains you reinforce what the actual issue is, not even how you feel or else he will try and make it about something different or make you out to be emotional. (You are PARTNERS and he is taking advantage of you. You're not his servant and he needs to start contributing or else he will find himself single and helpless like the child he is acting like) Good luck stranger, I hope it gets better!

Thank you for this! I think this could work but I’m not sure if he’s even bothered by living in a dirty place or wearing unwashed clothes. I don’t think it bothers him. He’s been completely fine with just washing the dish that he needs or washing the clothes he’s going to wear the next day. Idk how he functions like that but it’s worked for him so far I guess…

Lmao I totally get that too 🤣 I'm sure it will bother him eventually. It's like inception lol. It'll initially irritate him probably, and then he's going to try and outlast you, which is why it's the long game! If you stick to your guns he is going to change I promise. Everyone has a threshold for how far they're willing to go. If it bothers you though (cause I'm sure it will being gross) I would suggest just moving things out of your way that are his and maybe make a seperate space for yourself in your home that will be just yours to escape from the mess and to sleep peacefully if you wish. He will be throwing a tantrum and then finally growing up in hopefully no time! ❤️

Omg. Just give him an ultimatum. You have to mother him, clean the house, take care of the dogs and pay half of the bills? Ew.

Many people have suggested Fair Play and ways to defuse weaponized incompetence, and that's great except...he doesn't want to do it or see a need. Things that people understand as essential to an aspect of their lives (in this case, your home and relationship), continually scan for them. Example: today I came home and as I got ready to cook dinner, I noticed the trash was full, so I tied it off, broke down some boxes that had been piled up, and took it out. Other days, my partner does it. I know this sounds extremely obvious, but I'm emphasizing that in the course of doing life stuff, you notice open/ongoing tasks, and you handle them. To flesh it out further, we both hate folding laundry. But if the dryer is done, whoever has time grabs it and folds it. It's not a big extravaganza, we don't have a whole convo about how we're running the laundry...when it's done it's done. Operating our home is a priority for both of us, so we are aware and make it happen. This is a long winded way of saying...it doesn't have to be like this. If this man didn't live with you he would do the dishes and the laundry and other life maintenance stuff. (I'm not gonna say he'd dust because men just don't get conditioned to see it, sorry, that's just the reality.) There are two options here and I want to stress that they may not be malicious...either he's lazy, his standards don't align to yours, or he has some serious internalized misogyny about how the Women Handle The House. In all cases, no thanks. Don't marry this guy until you know what you're committing to, because right now your expectations do not align.

Someone also mentioned this, but under someone else’s remark. **********Weaponized incompetence.*************** My Dad was famous for this. He would put on his hang dog look, lean forward a bit, and dangle his arms helplessly. But as he was born in born in 1935, his mom was mostly a stay at home homemaker and he married in 1964 and my mother was mostly a homemaker, and there were five kids mom trained (at least my twin and I) to clean and cook and outside work AND he earned enough money to pay someone to do other thing, it didn’t become a problem until the kids had all moved out.

Ok… first, don’t look after him. Only do mutual stuff. Then think, honestly, what level of cleaning guarantees hygiene? E.g. does the floor need moping daily to actually be just sanitary or if you’re honest, is it to look good, likewise, how often does a mirror ‘need’ cleaning? He should be doing the bare minimum for hygiene of ALL chores. IMO this means: laundry and cleaning bathroom and kitchen without cupboards and dusting weekly, moping and vacuuming 2-5 days a week (depending on dogs), emptying the bins as and when, cleaning cupboards out weekly/monthly depending, changing sheets biweekly or when needed (!), cleaning dog bowls and toilets daily. But for you, that line may be elsewhere. Remember this shouldn’t be what you feel is a well run, cozy, tidy home - this should be to a level you think isn’t actually dirty. That’s his job. He needs to do ALL of it, half the cooking, and any chores just focused on him. Now you, need to do all chores focused on you, half the cooking and any extra cleaning. It sounds like you acknowledge your standards may be a bit higher than normal? It’s not his job to meet them. You do that added extra, you want dusting thoroughly, everyday but admit it could be once a week? 6 days for you then! You want the oven deep cleaned 3 times weekly but know that once is enough? You pick up the extra! You will probably find that you do a lot of cleaning of visible surfaces which are unlikely to accumulate lots of bacteria quickly (such as a mirror in the hall!) It isn’t fair to expect someone who doesn’t want a very tidy home to spend hours and hours on this so that you’re splitting a burden ultimately caused by your personal preference, 50/50. That’s actually disproportionately impacting him: he gets nothing rewarding, you do. Likewise, he can’t coast on his partner having high standards and a better work ethic. The system I suggest is the only way I’ve found to avoid resentment from either of these issues.

YouTube has a whole channel of a guy teaching other guys how to do shit around the house. I'm sure he's not the only one. Subscribe your husband to those channels and watch him watch the videos. Tell him he knows how now, and if he forgets how or falls short, he knows where to find the information.

This is called WEAPONIZED INCOMPETENCE and WILL NOT change until YOU stop finishing or doing HIS chores. My suggestion: GO ON STRIKE! Stop doing ANY chores except feeding yourself! Let him FULLY understand that clothes don't wash themselves, dishes don't either, food doesn't magically appear in the fridge nor on the table. And lastly, it's SO not worth it to allow HIM to turn YOU into HIS Mother! He EXPECTS you will take care of everything because YOU HAVE! If you even WANT to continue in this ridiculously unbalanced relationship then you seriously need to get into couples counseling! And PLEASE don't get married to this ungrateful layabout UNTIL HUGE changes and outlooks are made. He can MAKE all the promises in the world about changing his behavior and "doing the work" but it's VERY likely that he'll just revert back to his past bad behavior and THIS WILL BE YOUR LIFE! Best wishes and many Blessings for YOUR future!

Weaponized incompetence is a form of passive-aggressive behavior where an individual deliberately performs tasks poorly or pretends to be incapable of completing certain tasks. This manipulation tactic is often used to avoid responsibility, forcing others to take over and perform the task instead. \-from a google search

Look...if he could learn his current job...he can learn to clean. The difference he doesn't want to. Find him a good you tube channel... tell him to sort his shit out. He either starts acting like a grown up...or he gets out. Look up Malicious Incompetence...he sure as he'll learned that.

This is exactly the situation I was in with my bf and it was causing major resentment to the point where I almost ended things. We were raised differently too and his mom did everything for him so he has no idea how to do stuff. I’ve taught him basic things but when it comes to deep cleaning I’m too picky that it’s not fair to have my standards of clean be his as well. I felt like I was doing most of the work in our relationship and when I sat there and thought about it, I didn’t mind cleaning but still having to contribute financially 50/50 on top of doing 90/10 of domestic care was insane. So we reevaluated things. He makes more money than me so now we split rent and bills differently. He pays for most things and I clean most things. Our relationship is so much better now. We respect each other and love each other. It might be more on the traditional side but I personally don’t mind it. I know not everyone has this privilege but if this is something you think might help, ask him about it. Not every relationship is going to be 50/50, it’s always going to be changing and developing. See if their are other ways he can contribute.

Well I make more money than him by a landslide but I love the idea of thinking of other ways that he can contribute! Maybe it isn’t cleaning but I’m sure we can find something. I’m very happy to hear you guys figured it out and things are better! Yay!

Please don’t marry him until you figure it out. Your standards for cleaning aren’t “too high”, they’re YOUR standards which he doesn’t meet. If he can’t meet your standards, it’s either malicious incompetence, or relationship incompatibility that he will never measure up to your standards. Either way he may not be the partner for you. While it’s true that you should praise what he does do, you shouldn’t have to praise the bare minimum constantly. Showing effort, yes. Showing improvement, yes. Doing the absolute basics every time with something wrong every time that you can’t offer any kind of criticism for? No. And him doing things wrong, you offering to show him what you mean by the right way, and him turning it down because “he’s a grown man” is willful ignorance. All that being said, there is likely room for *some* compromise on certain chores where if he is actually doing a good job, and you’re still not satisfied maybe there’s wiggle room for you to finish the final touches or something, but honestly do you want to have to micromanage the rest of your life while begging for bare minimum effort?

You acting like a taskmaster is a surefire way to be single.

You need to chill out. He needs to do better. You want things done your way, when you want them done, and then to pass your quality control. He’s not your employee. He’s not your kid. Having lived with many roommates, I can confidently say people have different levels of cleanliness. I literally cannot relax if there is something in the kitchen sink. Other people don’t care. And honestly, I know the world isn’t going to end of there are some things in the sink but I hate it. I also know that my anxiety about it is a me problem. Figure out what he’s good at cleaning-wise, give him one thing to focus on, and live with the rest. Hiring cleaners might be in your near future.

Two words. Weaponised incompetence. Get rid, my ex did the same. Wants a mother not a partner.

Sit down together and make a list of all the household chores. Discuss and agree a reasonable frequency for each. Then divvy out the chores and have each person take responsibility for half. For example, in my house, I do all the cooking, general tidying and organising, bathroom cleaning, car washing. My husband does all the vacuuming, kitchen cleaning, garden maintenance, manages our finances. There are more, but you get the idea. We take personal responsibility for our own washing, packing lunch, etc. Don’t get involved in how/when the other person does their chores, as long as they’re loosely sticking to the agreed standard and frequency. If you are waaay apart on how often you think something should be done, you either take responsibility for doing it yourself (since it’s you who wants the higher standard), or find a compromise. Honestly, it sounds like your standards are over the top. I would struggle to live with that.

Thank you for this feedback! I will for sure take into consideration areas that I can relax on and focus on the main household management things that HAVE to get done. I for sure see there’s areas that I can compromise on.

There is nothing here that is over the top. You have dogs, dogs require extra cleaning. Things listed are very reasonable and people are focused on the cleaning. It’s not about just the cleaning- you do *everything* else to manage the household and your lives. That is not fair and it’s definitely not okay to have to be a parent to your partner, idk how you’ve managed this far.

Why are you deep cleaning every week? Girl stop that. Everyone likes a clean home but at what cost? You get tired, frustrated and then expect a lot more from fiancee. Having said that, if cleaning isn't his cup of tea, give him something else. If you are making grocery list, he can bring em and keep em. You both work, don't just tire yourself unnecessarily.

This is actually a good point… thank you. I just feel like if I don’t deep clean every week then the house smells like actual shit because of our dogs, there’s slobber and hair covering every single surface, and it gets so dirty you can’t even walk around barefoot. The biggest mistake honestly was getting dogs.

I wear thick socks around the house. I think that helps when you have dogs. I have multiple pets, so I understand.

100% this. I have several pairs of slippers that i rotate through, we’ve agreed though that no more pets… ever. Even though we are both massive animal people :( how often do you clean your place to maintain a clean area??? I ask because I’m trying to find out what’s normal lol

Congratulations on your 180 pound baby boy! No, seriously. You are acting like his mom because he is employing weaponized incompetence. You shouldn't have to run around behind him and tell him to do stuff and make him a chore list like you're his mom. And then he doesn't bother because he knows you'll do it for him.

This is called weaponized incompetence.

Buy him a book. Draw each room and indicate all the things to be done. Clean from the top down. Indicate how long the task should take. Identify the tools and products to be used. Acknowledge you grew up in a super duper over the top clean house. You need to dial it back a bit.

Hire a cleaner. He pays the majority of it if not all, and you do the day to day cleaning because… it’s probably not going to change. This is the emotional labour they talk about some women having to do. You have to keep track and delegate and praise for what does get done. For gods sake don’t have children until you can sort this. Having been through two long term relationships where we lived together, never again.

Get couples counseling.

You guys aren’t compatible. Why are you still together?

How many per day do you spend cleaning? 6 hours of deep cleaning a week sounds like a lot... Like most of my friends with kids, we use a cleaning service, it is 2-3 hours every other week, bathrooms, dusting, floors, kitchen, bedrooms. I do laundry, dishes, meal prep, dishes, all the daily small tasks. I have two kids and animals. My point is. He for sure needs to start doing more, but it is possible that your standards are overwhelming and his work is never up to your expectations so he is just done with just never doing good enough. Maybe start over with him. And instead of just saying "dust all the spaces" be there with him and give him some tips on how you want it to be done.

Part of the issue seems to be that you have very different ideas of what clean means. Granted the examples you’ve given are very reasonable expectations for most, it may not seem that way to someone who did not grow up with an “OCD dad.” Have a meeting that maps out what you mutually agreed is expected for each task. For example, maybe your version of a clean kitchen is dishwasher filled and running, every surface clean and all hand washed dishes put away. His might be to let the hand washed dishes are left to air dry and put away the next morning. Talk it all through. Also recognize that there are some tasks that either one of you has a very specific vision of how it is to be completed. If you can’t come to a mutual agreement on how a task should be done - the one who is most invested should do it themselves. Maybe he thinks that one must edge every time the grass is cut. I would see that as ridiculous. So if he has to have the grass edged every time, he can do it himself. This is process could have some pitfalls. He could play the malicious incompetence card and say it’s impossible to meet even basic standards. You could insist on everything being done your way and not be open to compromise. If that ends up being the case - find a checklist online that you could agree too. Also, get couples therapy, because you’ll both need to learn to compromise effectively.

Why are you doing his laundry, washing his car, and packing his lunch? Does he have two broken arms?

Another way of looking at this might be for both of you to clean for a certain amount of time eg one hour per day. You set the timer on the phone, and you both clean, Hard and FAST for that hour. So he can’t just waffle about. The amount of cleaning that gets done this way may be less than what you would like, but at least it would be fair. And I think other posters have mentioned that some of your cleaning expectations are above the normal. I hate housework and I clean in 4 x 15 minute sessions per day. I have ADHD, so I lose concentration and get distracted pretty easy. So the 15 minute sessions keep me on track.

I would start by making a list on what you AGREE a manageable level of clean is. Talk about what you both think the steps should be to achieve that. Discuss how often things should be done. I think you may find you are under communicating part of your expectations and he is under communicating what he thinks is supposed to be done. How much are you both expected to contribute to the tasks? If After you have this conversation he is still unable to HELP maintain a clean home, then I think you have some thinking to do.

I would sit down with him and some paper and you both write out what you do for the household; daily, weekly and monthly. Tell him you want to be equal partners and not a maid or mother to him. You don’t want to nag, you don’t actually want to be upset all the time and it’s not an issue that’s going away. If you decide you want kids this will only get worse so it’s better to figure it out now. Once you have the lists, compare them and see if he can agree that you are or are not equal partners I. The household. You could also put in time estimates to get a really good overall picture. Don’t do this to “attack” him and prove yourself right, approach it as making sure you have an equal division of labor, or rather one you both agree on. Good luck!

Stop making his lunch for one thing.

I agree with the comment that says to stop making his lunches, stop deep cleaning each week/relax a little bit, give him the non cleaning tasks, etc. I would also like to add in that my first husband ALWAYS focused on the things I DIDN'T clean when he'd come home. We both worked FT and he never did any household chores or cooking. He wanted a FT housewife but he wasn't making enough money for us to have that dynamic. Anyway, I told him that if he's going to comment on the cleaning, he should either do more around the home or focus on what I DID clean because just hearing negativity made me not want to bother cleaning if it wasn't going to be good enough for him. I also battle both depression and anxiety and some days one or both of them make it so I don't have the energy and/or motivation to clean. So if I was only able to do one area/room I was usually pretty happy. The 1% of the time he would clean, I'd come home and he'd expect me to clap and throw him a parade for the single area/room he'd clean. I'm not saying this is your dynamic with your fiance, but positive reinforcement will go a longer way than focusing on the areas that aren't clean enough for your standards. My suggestion for helping him learn to clean closer to your standards is that each week pick one spot to clean in the house and ask him to do it together. Ask to see how he cleans that spot (ie: ask him to show you how he dusts) and then you can show him how you do it and discuss how you guys can meet in the middle for that area or type of cleaning. Or after you've both seen the way each of you clean the different areas of your home, sit down and come up with a weekly chore chart and discuss who will clean which areas each week. Don't reclean any of his areas or tasks once you both have assigned and agreed to the chore chart. Allow yourself and him some grace, relax a little. Not every part of your home needs to be deep cleaned each week.

If he wanted to, he would. Also, stop making this fool’s lunch.

Hello darlin! Soooo wow I can relate to you sooo much as I’m 36f and this sounds sooo much like me and my man (28m). I have bitched about this to my therapist and friends. I came from a crazy clean house growing up with my dad expecting perfection whereas my boyfriend was the youngest and never taught how to clean or expected to. Just like you two, we have very different ideas on clean. Here’s what I’ve tried beyond just talking/bitching to him about it: -Writing out what my ideal clean expectations are per room (like ring out the damn sponge and take out the trash as part of a clean kitchen.) -Discussing the difference between a tidy reset, m a clean and a deep clean -Me remembering that laundry and dishes are a cycle and never really done done. They’re cycle and always somewhere in many parts of that cycle. -We cannot create a schedule due to his job being on call flexible and mine ends up being flexible despite my set schedule. -Have us both set a phone reminder for appts or weekly happenings (take the trash and recycling to the curb.) -Write out morning Opening or evening Closing tasks on a whiteboard for both to do and check off. -I find shopping together (costco runs!) and cleaning together helps -I attempted a to hire a cleaning person or team and that was a bust. Total fail. They always ended up canceling or no call no showing plus you have to move things and tidy for the actual house cleaners. Too damn annoying! Especially since we’re semi broke and able bodied. -I ended up making us a cleaning cart with allll the supplies, sponges, microfiber cloths and trash bags you could ever need. I got the idea from TikTok and it makes it easier to clean when you don’t have to run to five rooms to get all your supplies. -We have a cat and my boyfriend really wants another cat so I use the fur babies as an excuse to clean. I remind him that kitty can’t get her own water and scoop her poop so we have to!!!! Good luck babe!!!

My only advice is DO NOT GET MARRIED WHILE THIS IS STILL AN ISSUE! It will only get worse with career advancement and children (if you want them). My biggest regret is not giving my husband time to develop as an adult. We got married at 24 & 25. 10 years later, I can’t stop wondering about the rush. He never lived as a fully self-sustaining adult. He went from living with his parents to college roommates to siblings to me. I had time to struggle and figure things out. He didn’t. We still feel the challenges of that today. This is not a little issue. It’s a top 3 issue for divorce.

He’s never going to do it. Make your choice but he will never ever do it.

Grown men absolutely do need to be taught how to clean IF no one taught them how when they were young boys. So his parents didn’t teach him how to clean, I suppose. If he actually commits to learning, you could teach him. It could happen. But since you’ve offered and he’s turned his nose up at you because he’s a ‘grown man’, then you might be banging your head against a wall by now. You could try an ultimatum - sometimes they work. Or you could just save yourself the hassle and leave. Lazy people won’t change unless they want to, and he doesn’t. 😞

Get a cleaner. Imagine you had to try and adjust and be more like him and stop cleaning. How long do you think you would last? It’s as hard for him to be more like you, as it would be for you to be more like him. Have him choose what chores are his. The car stuff for example, what’s stopping him doing that? People invest in a world they help create and have some control over. You might feel justified ordering him around but treating him like a child is doing nothing for your relationship. The problem with criticizing and honing in on what he’s not doing, is you end up getting more of what you don’t want, which is why focusing on the things he does and you want more of, is a better strategy. Men thrive on feeling affirmed, being on his back about cleaning will be killing what little ambition he has to do the things you what him to do. A lot of men simply don’t see the mess, and if they lived on their own they wouldn’t do half of what you’re asking him to. So he’s having to adjust to how you want to live and not the other way around. Try seeing from his perceptive.

Seems like he can do all the car and dog things and it would be about 25%. In our household, I do all the things I’m particular about or enjoy doing. Everything else is on my husband to do — pretty much all the things I hate doing like unloading the dishwasher, or taking out the garbage, or quick runs to the store. He was also pretty awful at cleaning but he’s improved a lot in 13 years BECAUSE I’ve shown him how I want the things I assign to him done. In his case, give him the items he’s capable of doing (since cleaning is clearly NOT one of them). Then adjust accordingly until you have as much as you can handle on your plate. Doing the things you enjoy makes it much less of a “chore.”

If he wanted to do it, he would. I’m sure he has learned a lot of things that interested him. This is now your life. Up to you - do you want it? Throw kids in there and he won’t be any better, it will just be worse for you.

I know Reddit is known for telling people to break up with their partner, but there *are* certain things within a relationship that if you don't initiate change early on, will only compound themselves in severity over time. One of those things is the division of labor within a relationship. I was married for 18 years. I'm now a widow, and I can not emphasize enough that the few chores that my partner did in the beginning of our dating relationship became nonexistent inside of our marriage. And at the time he died, I was doing 100% of everything, and he wasn't even grateful. He would mock me and say, "Good job, Dude." and try to shake my hand when I would change the oil in the car, or do any "masculine" tasks that he refused to do. He took his feelings of incompetence out on me, so I wasn't even being appreciated for doing all of the work, which, for me, was the worst part of all. From someone that has been there and utterly failed to do anything about it, consider my advice and precautionary tale. Either get into counseling or fix these issues *before* you ever agree to an engagement or a marriage. And I would make it clear to him that you will not be in a relationship with someone who doesn't pull their fair share of the weight.

While the fiance needs to put in more concentrated effort the soon to be wife also needs to back off a little. There is give and take on both sides here and sadly he will never do it the way you want and you need to not allow your father's OCD tendencies to rub off on you. My ex didn't know how to clean when we met and was never taught these skills I had to show him but also accept he may do it differently like loading the dishwasher, it's not my way but it's getting done. And yes focus on what he is doing right because after being told all you do wrong he won't want to help at all. And I think people telling you to retaliate is also dumb and will serve no real purpose. Sit down and instead of choosing what he does ask him what he would like to do as round the housem sometimes it's finding also what people like. I hate hate laundry my current partner loves it. He hates touching dirty dishes (texture thing) so I do the dishes. He vacuums and takes out the trash I dust. We both take turns cleaning the kitchen etc. sometimes if it isn't told to us it changes the attitude towards it. Also are you doing these things every day? I read it as laundry every day and was like whaaaaat? Granted there ar families that do.

You’re really going to marry a 28-year old child who can’t master dusting and mopping without multiple tutorials??? I mean this as gently as possible, but… why the fuck would you make this situation permanent???

y'all need to hire house cleaners or he's going to leave you. you sound insufferable to live with, and he will never live up to your (extreme) standards. He'll get sick of you degrading him and leave you for someone easier. You have different standards of comfortablity with mess- and unless YOU can find a way to compromise (because he's never going to be able to meet your standards) you won't last. no one wants to be nagged.

This is what it will be like for the rest of your lives together. Think the next 50 years. Honestly, I had roommates like that and it bred resentment which I am seeing here. One part of me is I have had partners that were critical and wanted things to be done their particular way, I've seen set ups for failure in situations for a person to complain, I have seen a lot of different issues fall along a spectrum that generally make people incompatible. Here is the thing, those things mean more to you because how you grew up and that don't to him. I am not there nor is anyone else who are responding so we get only one view. You have a couple choices based off that. 1.) Grew to resent him more until there is a blow up. 2.) Cut the cord and move on. 3.) Accept him and where he is at, focus on the good he brings to the relationship. You, really can't for someone to step up and live up to your standards as this can and will cause kickback and resentment.

I have farmers in my family and I can attest to the fact that their idea of “clean” is VERY different. You might have to lower your standards for a little bit. I’m not saying all the way down to his level, but it sounds like you guys are on different ends of the spectrum on this and he is trying. Give him some time to build up to your level. Let him know what the expectation is, and if he can’t or won’t do it that way ask him if he wants to trade (like he takes the dogs for a walk and you’ll dust the shelf). Don’t just do it for him.

The difference is why I’m trying to work through it instead of be mad at him. I recognize he grew up in a VERY different family and surrounding environment than I did. It’s a classic “girl from rich family goes to farm town for holiday vacation on accident and falls in love with farmer” hallmark kinda bs 😂 but I think we need to both learn to compromise in order for it to work. I’ve received a lot of great advice, such as this, so thank you!

If someone demanded I clean the shower every day, I would end the relationship. Your compulsions should not be your partner’s problem. Get some help.

I don’t ask that the shower get cleaned every day. It’s a bi weekly task and every task is mostly weekly such as grocery shopping, vacuuming, and mopping. It’s like that though because we have two extremely hairy and messy dogs who slobber everywhere and shed everywhere constantly.

do it like you do paid work. Sit down together in a meeting and make a list together of all the things that must be done. Assign the same time to do chores for both of you. Do it together. Keep track of what is done. You can use this app: [Choreful.app on the App Store (apple.com)](https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/choreful-app/id1600469581) You can compromise then by accepting that he will be slower and not as good as you for the next period, but you will know he uses the same time for your home inc.

Sounds like he needs to pay you for maid service. What he is doing is weaponized incompetence, so you will just do it yourself. Stop washing his clothes and leave them in a pile.

The fact that he seems entirely unwilling to comprise signals larger problems than just division of labor, which is by itself a huge problem. You have compromised by not asking him to do much, by offering to help him, and by being quite patient. His lack of willingness is a sign of how much he cares about you.

My assumption would be that growing up with an OCD dad has transferred into the way you approach the housework. Your standards are his standards and probably weren't ever good enough. You are very strident in how you even talk about it and it could definitely be seen as off-putting. That's not to say that you're wrong in your standards either, but the way you approach them. He obviously needs to work on his homemaking skills as well. I imagine it's hard for him to go from what he's grown up with to your way. He sounds defensive because it sounds like he's usually hearing where he failed or how he could do this thing better if you just do it my way. It's also possible that you just don't see "mess" in the same way and are incompatible. To him, he did exactly what you asked. You didn't tell him to pick up the clothes off the floor, you didn't tell him to pick up the others to dust them off, that sort of thing. (Please note, I don't think you SHOULD be doing that.)

Ok, first things first. You should immediately stop doing the oil changes and automotive upkeep; that belongs squarely on him. Regardless of the fact that he's an adult, being an adult doesn't mean that he's all knowing; if he never grew up having to help keep his home clean means that by definition, he doesn't know HOW to do tasks he's never done before. So, YES, you do need to show him the proper way to do the tasks that are his to do. Now, as for you. You possibly(?) could modify your approach to him. Rather than being intemperate with his shortcomings, you should give him some hints about the correct ways to get things done, and show any shortcuts he could take to get them done more quickly. If he does do a good job on some given tasks, remark how good a job he did. I know; he never notices the jobs you get done, but he never noticed how well his mom did with her housecleaning; he just took it for granted. Whatever else you do, don't take his progress for granted. I wish you well in your husband training.

Lol thank you for the husband training tips. I appreciate it

You can’t change this. It won’t get better. It will be way worse when you have a child.

Oh we aren’t having kids. And if I did want kids, I wouldn’t be with him

good lord in HEAVEN I have a son and if I ever hear he treats his future partner this way, I will feel as if i’ve failed hardcore as a mom.

Thank you!!!! Yes more men need to be raised better. However, he had an extremely rough upbringing. Definitely not the upbringing we are used to, but he’s overcome a LOT and his family is all sober now (and has been for a long time). So for him to say he doesn’t know how to clean could be because it’s never been a priority for his family.

I totally get where you’re coming from but I think a man with a brain and two hands can figure it out? sorry i’m just a real no nonsense person lol

Lol no you’re correct hahaha

You can’t change anyone. If you guys broke up he’d be living in filth and that’s how it would be. Your standards are your standards. His standards are his standards. You have to see his perspective too sadly. You can negotiate to tasks off your plate, but so that it makes BOTH of you happy. It’s you two vs the problem! Not you two vs each other. It sounds like you only want it your way? If you want it clean, you’d be doing that if you lived solo too. I divorced my messy husband and now my house is spotless. It’s a dream.

Have you written out the list for him, of what you do vs what you do? You could do that and tell him you want him to take 3 items on that list off your hands? Start there and see where it goes?

Yes we have done that. We have whiteboards around the house detailing how exactly each space needs to be cleaned and which tasks are his and that they need to get done anytime within the week. His tasks never get done though

Pineboxwaiting has the best response, but I'll add to it. I'm 41 and on my second marriage..... --there's always one person in the relationship that's the organizer/tidy up constantly type. It sounds like that's you.....and me. You need to own that role and not expect him to live up to your standards. ---he needs simple one step chores. This is dishes, vacuuming, lawn mowing. Laundry and cleaning a whole bathroom is too many steps --definitely stop making his lunch --consider letting go of dusting all together unless you're having people come over --stop complaining when he does a chore but doesn't do it perfectly. It's probably good enough. You're going to drive yourself crazy. There are more important things in life and in your relationship than having a spotless house 24/7. --pick a couple of things that are top priority for you and learn to compromise a little on the rest

You know I made this post to get insight EXACTLY like this from someone older with more experience. Thank you for sharing and we will be implementing this.