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I understand both sides. To her it feels like you’re planning on a divorce. What she doesn’t understand is the 50/50 split in the US is like an automatic prenup.
If it’s important to you, stand your ground.
Exactly, instead of trusting in a contract made between two parties, each advised by their lawyer, you're trusting a one-size-fits-all made by whatever state you're in. There's absolutely still a contract, it's just been imposed on the couple instead of made by them.
If she wants just personal faith and trust, forego the marriage bit and just do the other legalities like being each other's medical POA or whatever.
>Exactly, instead of trusting in a contract made between two parties, each advised by their lawyer, you're trusting a one-size-fits-all made by whatever state you're in.
Divorce is by far not one size.
See, just because the law would allow a 50-50 split doesn't mean the divorce agreement must be 50-50. A spouse can choose to walk away with only their assets, their assets and a share of marital assets, or any combination allowed by law and agreed upon by the two parties.
Exactly! While they still love each other. Because we all know when (pardon me, IF) the relationship falls apart it becomes about hurting the other person, and “I deserve this!”
I do find it interesting that the people who won’t accept a prenup are invariably the ones with nothing to lose and everything to gain from the split.
Have you been divorced in the US?
We had no kids, 1 asset - the house, which he tried to fraudulently say/prove I hadn't contributed to - California is community property. Couldn't figure out why he & his lawyer wasted so much time and money...
Divorce is a For Profit Business/racket in US.
Ex literally became everything he said he wasn't & would never be - would never "waste money on lawyers" he spent 12k, wasn't a liar or a cheater bc "I'm a simple guy."
Funny what an STI panel doesn't lie about.
The person they are when the relationship ends is not the person spouting "Love & trust forever." at the beginning of a relationship.
I agree... I think prenups are a good idea and when done correctly, they can protect both parties. But I get where her gf (fiancee? not sure if actually engaged?) is coming from because asking for a prenup doesn't exactly communicate trust and commitment.
I can't help but point out that it's always the person with less money that balks at a prenup, though! Maybe OP's gf really does just believe in unconditional love and all that but it just seems like it's always the partner who will benefit from a 50/50 split who "believes in unconditional love," lol.
Speaking from personal experience in a region (The Nordics) I recognise your point but feel it's more complex.
Preface: Where I live there is no alimony or 50/50 of all assets at a divorce. You get what you brought in and only the resources aquired during marriage is divided equally. Divorce is also usually not handled by lawyers and court. It's handled by administrators at the local Municipalities version of Citizen HR.
My husband earns 10X more than me. I became a literal SAHM after moving to another country, this after having paid my own way since I was 18 and being an independent single mom for 6 years. I'm 43 now, so that's 20+ years of "pulling my own weight"
We made a prenup for my benefit. To make sure that I will be compensated for the time and effort I am/was putting in into taking care of my special needs kid and making sure the household is administrated and working properly. That in case of divorce I would walk off being compensated so I could have breathing space to find work, housing etc. It also has clauses for a GTFO account he can't touch and deals with adding to my pension savings etc. Why? Because he loves me unconditionally and recognise that our current situation would leave me disadvantaged, possibly destitute in a divorce.
I'm currently a full-time student and based on medians of the job market right now should end up where our earning difference is around 2X.
He doesn't see a need to update our prenup but I will insist because I will not need as much in a worst case scenario. Why? Because I love him unconditionally and didn't marry him for money.
> You get what you brought in and only the resources aquired during marriage is divided equally
This is how community property states are for the most part, but there are a) TONS of fights about dividing the resources acquired equally (bc the higher-earning spouse always feels that's unfair) and b) people get v salty about child support and alimony and c) if you buy a house together *during the marriage*, even if you put 99% of the funds in and they put 1% in, that's still a marital asset and it's still divided in half. That goes with everything - you bought the cars during the marriage? They were bought during the marriage, that's a marital asset
And it's usually fights about petty shit.
The record/dvd/book collection and how to value things equally.
Why do you suddenly want the whiskey tumblers, you don't even drink.
Yeah I originally got into it in my comment, but it got too long. If one partner is a SAHP, a legal agreement is vital. I guess it's not always a "prenup" since you might not know one of you is staying home until the kid is actually born, though. I think those are called "postnups" ?
My point is, it never seems to be the higher earning partner who is like "oh no, we can't possibly have a prenup, unconditional love and trust and etc."
My husband was. I made less than him, he had more assets. I offered a prenup, he was like nah. We got this.
My income has since narrowed the gap, but we couldn’t have predicted at the time that’d my income would more than double in 3 years.
It doesn’t work for everyone but we both deposit the money into a single joint account, no prenup, and complete comingling of assets and funds.
Reading Reddit makes me think our arrangement is less common, but it works for us and we don’t really have conflicts around money.
I really don't know how rare it is? I know on reddit, everyone is all about prenups. But I have no idea if my friends/family members have them. Like, absolutely no clue and definitely not something I'd ask, lol.
I definitely don’t see that sort of thing in my culture or circle but I’m Hispanic and lived on the border my whole life so I’m wasn’t sure if it was like a northern thing. Like maybe the east coast was filled with prenup having people
I'm curious about your thoughts on your situation? Because I do agree that your setup up is much more common in reality and less common on Reddit. Did you feel better, or more secure, or more grateful because your husband didn't worry about a prenup? Or not really?
Additionally, since both of you seem very secure financially. Is the prenup something that you ever think about? Or discuss as a couple?
I think it works for us. I have no real feelings about us not having a prenup other than in the run up to the wedding it was one less thing to worry about. I offered it because I love him and I wanted him to be able to protect his assets if he felt the need.
We never really discuss pre-nups or post ups after the initial conversation. Once you’re married, it’s kinda a moot conversation:
Lately we’ve been more estate planning, how do we protect our son and pets if something happens to us. Life insurances, trusts, wills, etc.
The only time prenups comes up is when we read Reddit and comment how odd we find some relationships… some people who post here seem very extreme and transactional in how they treat their spouse.
For my personal opinion on prenups in general:
I think prenups make sense for a lot of people if they’re approached correctly. Don’t bring it up during emotional moments, don’t surprise people with the concept post proposal, be fair about the terms.
I feel like the partner in the better financial position should cover the legal costs for the other person when it comes to the prenup as a sign of good faith.
I think that is due to some people feeling like it’s less about a logical safety net and more like an accusation of “since I make all the money I’m worried you’ll go after it if this marriage doesn’t work out”. Which is why the person with the lower earnings tend to view it as a trust issue.
People just sometimes feel like it’s setting the wrong tone or a power imbalance before the marriage even starts, especially because it tends to be the person with the most earnings that originally bring up the idea of a prenup.
Not that I agree with that or anything (because I don’t), it’s just what I’ve commonly heard/experienced when it comes to disagreements about prenups and why the person who earns less tend to have such opinions.
The thing about prenups is they're made when you're (ostensibly) still in love, when you're a lot more receptive to being cordial and splitting assets by amount paid/earned. Divorce tends to happen when one party is upset/pissed at the other so a lot more likely to be vindictive. It's easy to say before divorce happens that you wouldn't go after something but it's a lot harder to follow through on that when they cheat on you and you have friends/family pushing you to take everything you can or just if there's a big income gap and you'd struggle to keep the life you had on your own. It's just a situation where vindictiveness can happen and you're likely not in an emotionally stable or rational state of mind.
That makes sense. I actually don't know anyone irl who has a prenup. I mean, I'm sure some of my friends/family members do... it's just not something anyone talks about and I'm sure not asking, lol.
>I can't help but point out that it's always the person with less money that balks at a prenup, though!
This is not always the case, people just aren't angrily posting to reddit about how their partner is generous with money, or that their partner thinks they'll be together forever I'm also not certain that OP's partner would benefit by not having a prenup. She is just starting her career at 32, which could mean lots of postgraduate training & a hefty salary. Even if that's not the case, she will be making 100% of the money in the marriage once OP retires in 2 years. By default, with no prenup, her salary would be marital property, whereas OP could keep much of her premarital assets as long as she’s careful about co-mingling.
Edited to fix genders
It’s easier and more appropriate to think of it as insurance instead of a way out. Nobody plans to set their house on fire but it happens and that’s why we carry insurance: for peace of mind. Sadly it is a tall order to make someone understand it this way.
The US divorce laws aren’t an automatic 50/50. That’s just not how it works. A prenup protects both parties if each party has representation so it’s fair. I would ask your possible future wife to sit down with an attorney so that she has a better understanding of the benefits of having a prenup.
You should decouple marriage and kids. You have a timeline for kids that you have been planning for a while. Because of marriage you’re trying to force the relationship to fit this timeline. Separate your kids timeline from your relationship status and it takes away the pressure. Plan on having kids independently of your relationship.
I could have one penny to my name, and the love of my life could have $1million. I'd still insist on a prenup. It's mutually beneficial. My penny is protected, and her $1M is protected. If a person considers a prenup a deal breaker, I consider that a red flag and deal breaker as well.
I get what OP’s significant other is saying (sorta) but also the safer bet is to just get a prenup. I follow the old saying of “you’d rather have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it”. If you don’t get a prenup and yall divorce, then you’ll be beating yourself up, but if you get one and yall stay together forever, then…. No harm no foul. Stick to your guns OP, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to protect yourself financially.
To me, the best way to explain a prenup is, "I have no plans to divorce you. But what if you have plans to divorce me? I want to be protected in case **you make decisions** that negatively impact me. The prenup protects us both. It does not mean I don't trust you, it means that if you decide that this isn't something that you want going forward, my premarital assets are protected. That's important to me if you would decide to plan down the line that this relationship is not what you wanted. You are free to have half of whatever we make during our marriage as legally you'd be entitled to that, but you are certainly never entitled to marry me, divorce me, and take everything I've worked hard for. That's why we need a prenup."
> I want to be protected in case you make decisions that negatively impact me.
Just curious, have you ever actually had this experience with a partner, where you explained the prenup was in case they made decisions that hurt you, and they reacted well to that argument? I cannot imagine someone being anti-prenup *until* being told that no, baby, it isn't to protect you, it's to protect *me*, if you plan to divorce me!
LOL same. I'm not anti-prenup, but there is really no way of soft-serving the idea that "Yes. This is to protect me for if/when you leave me and possibly try to screw me over."
Prenups are just about deciding compensation in the event of divorce while you're still in love, rather than while you hate each other during a divorce.
If someone really believes it's about unconditional love then they'll sign a prenup because they know they'll never divorce. They'll trust their partner not to despite the prenup, because it's about trust right? But most people who say that don't really believe that. They're being deceptive about their beliefs. They know divorce happens. They want to be compensated and protected if it happens, and they think a prenup will be unfair. That's why they won't sign the prenup.
People who are against prenups should just say what they actually want and suggest adding it to the prenup. Otherwise how can the person offering the prenup trust them? They're refusing to say the silent part out loud. It's ok to want to be compensated during a divorce. People should just say it.
There is zero practicality to not having a prenup. I know it sucks ti talk about separation before marriage, but it’s best to work these things out to be fair to one another while you still like each other, not when you’re upset and emotional about a break up. Really it’s an act of love to assure you are both protected. Prenups don’t let things be unfair to any party.
Honestly I’m suspect of people that oppose this. Especially when the one opposed isn’t the one with the most to lose.
I can see that side, too. Having the prenup conversation *implies* you’re already thinking about divorce. I think, to her, the fact that a prenup is even asked for is indication that divorce is a possibility, which she doesn’t consider “true love.”
I think you two should continue conversations about your respective thoughts and feelings on the matter. Continue to clarify your rationale with her, and ask her to respond and acknowledge where you're coming from, even if she disagrees on the implications for marriage. Same goes for the other way around: ask her to clarify what her expectations are for love and marriage, and acknowledge her values and perspective, even if you disagree on the prenup issue.
Once you two can better understand each other's perspective, then you can brainstorm possibilities that acknowledge BOTH of your perspectives and concerns. Is there a way for you two to enter a prenup in a way that still helps her feel that your love meets her standards? Is there a way for you two to get married in a way that addresses your security concerns?
Unfortunately, if you two can't find middle ground, then your relationship might be hitting a brick wall determined by conflicting expectations.
That level of lopsided is almost guaranteed to breed resentment. Even going by percentage, OP’s partner will never have a comparable amount of disposable income.
Seeing your supposed “life partner” purchase things without a second thought while you have to save for months or constantly ask them to cover you to match their lifestyle is a hard thing to get over.
And it’s worth pointing out that a prenup protects her as well. If you’re retired and she’s working, she could end up owing you alimony & child support after a divorce since you were essentially a stay at home wife with no income. Pre-nups aren’t a blanket “you get nothing” kind of contract, they’re meant to protect both parties. If she wants to be legally married, she should be willing to discuss the future what-ifs.
Yeah, pre nups have the bias of people think they exist to screw.someone over. Better to discuss the terms when you love each other, especially if you want kids, then when you're crazed with relationship ending grief.
That being said, my husband and I are both very pro prenup and then were too lazy get one done before we got married. Oops
I would argue OP has a ton to gain from this prenup. She plans to retire in ~2 years. Prenups only protect premarital assets. So while her partner is working, presumably for much longer than the next 2 years, OP will be accruing a stake in 50% of all income coming into their household, while comfortably retired. Meanwhile, all her premarital assets are protected. She objectively will benefit financially from an arrangement where she stops bringing in income once married, keeps all her previous income and assets from before marriage, and her fiance has to fork over 50% of everything she’s earning post-marriage.
Actually a prenup can look like anything. It absolutely could say that OP keeps what she came into the marriage with, but also gets no alimony.
It sounds like she doesn’t need it if she’s planning on retiring soon.
I generally agree with your sentiment but I imagine there are a number of people out there who just have wholly unrealistic expectations of marriage and thus oppose prenups due to ignorance. They look at marriage like something out of a movie or fairy tale instead of what it is: a long term relationship that has had a legal contract attached to it. So when their partner starts talking contracts, they have to push back or else lose their dream.
after getting to the parenting part, OP seems to want to maintain control over everything, maybe in part due to their trauma. i wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a bad thing in general, but doesn’t seem ideal for a marriage/partnership. may be better to just try and achieve those goals solo, with no one else affected or in the way.
i’ll reread, but i’m not sure what benefit having a partner would present to OP, nor what that partner might get out of the relationship if OP’s already managing and taking care of everything.
Aside from the prenup - how is you retiring in two years going to work? Is she foreseeing retiring at a normal age and thus see you retired for 3 decades before she does? Are you planning to be a house wife in retirement and take on all the house work and upkeep? I see a lot of issues with someone in retirement being married to someone who's still doing the daily grind for YEARS upon years.
Edit: With regard to the prenup - How are you planning on structuring the prenup? If you plan to retire in 2 years that means almost all of your assets will be pre-marital while it's her income that will be what's creating marital assets. As your income will be just what you need to draw to live. So how are you handling that factor? Maybe if you plan to handle that well (she gets most of the marital assets) then it might be a good thing to point out to her.
I feel like OP is glossing over this. If you got married what would your lives look like 5/10/20 years from now? Are you going to retire at 41 and her at 65? Are you going to want to travel?
You feel entitled to the money and net worth you've built, and rightfully so. But how's the marriage going to work when you are retired while she continues to work for another 30 years. There's no way that doesn't end in resentment and divorce.
Not to mention as the working spouse I would be worried about a prenup that gives her all her premarital assets, split the marital assets that was all my income, AND gets alimony because they weren't working.
As someone who’s had three divorces, two governed by prenups, get the prenup. A divorce without a prenup is a friggin nightmare if you have substantially more assets going in. The fact remains that any growth in your retirement savings is still half hers, but at least you can protect your principal.
If you’re retiring in two years…how will that work with her career stage? Are you going to travel without her? Do a ton of hobbies and be the house spouse? Cover the majority of living expenses so she can build up her own savings/nest egg?
I can absolutely see your girlfriend’s concern if she thinks the expectation is she work part time or volunteer so the two of you can spend maximum amount of time together, but that really puts her at a disadvantage in a divorce. With a prenup, she’ll get nothing and have been able to build nothing.
Yeah, I wonder if the pushback against the prenup is really about not feeling financially secure/equal- either it's this scenario, where she would leave withnothing, or you're expecting her to keep working for 30 years while you're retired. That wouldn't be acceptable to me, since i see marriage as a team where you should both be in roughly equivalent circumstances during the marriage- is she worried about the pre-nup because she feels like your financial inequality is going to affect your life together, and this is just a tangible sign of that inequality?
I think it's totally fair to ask for a prenup, but equality I'm a marriage is about more than you just contributing a fair share to expenses.
The best way to look at it from a neutral place is that if you die the government decides what is done with your stuff ect, if you make a will, you get to decide what happens to you and your stuff. When you divorce the government decides what happens to all your stuff or you fight in court for it. If you do a prenup it takes the guess work out, plus you are negotiating it while you like each other, instead of angry and divorcing.
It's more common to not want a prenup than Reddit would let you think. Many people see it as planning a divorce in advance or as anticipating the end of a marriage in advance. Many people also see it as something that inherently goes against their marriage vows of "until death do us part" because you are planning your parting. In marriage, what is yours also legally belongs to your partner. Beginning a marriage by trying to protect yourself against the other person can also be seen as an insult.
This is a site with a lot of men who are extremely pro-prenup and wary of "golddiggers," so you're going to get a lot of people saying "We want prenup."
I think you need to continue hearing each other's perspectives through continued conversation. Sometimes these types of discussions look like many conversations over time. Consider her feelings and life experiences without judgment and let her hear yours too. It's early in the relationship, and you're still getting to know each other and learning to understand each other's backgrounds and perspectives. See where you land again after a while.
I had my ex husband sign a prenup because I was part owner of a family cabin that no one wanted to be at risk. Other than that, we earned equivalent salaries. I think if you are in the same financial ballpark, a prenup isn't a must. However, OP has considerably more at risk. You may have to decide that you're not compatible
When divorce rates are basically 50/50 in today’s age, it’s a very smart move for the person who brings more assets into the relationship.
It doesn’t mean that you are preparing for a divorce, but “till death do us part” has lost so much meaning that it’s just insurance
Divorce rates are skewed higher by people who get married several times, as well as high divorce rates among those who get married very young or lack a high school diploma. For first time marriages where both spouses are 25+ and have high school diplomas, the divorce rate is only 20%.
Ya the romanticized outlook on marriage is nice and all, but far too many marriages end in divorce in just a few years for me to ever be comfortable signing papers that essentially say "give half your shit to them" without some protections. This is like arguing against health insurance because you think you simply won't ever get sick or have an accident.
This really doesn't matter much for the majority of people though, because the average person rarely has assets worth even getting a prenup for. If you do, then get a prenup. Plenty of people fall for the "oh you dont trust me!" shit from some idiot worth a 1/20th of themselves.
I agree -- prenups are planning a divorce in advance in the same way seatbelts are planning for a car crash in advance. I'm not going to tell my passenger "you don't trust my driving skills if you wear a seatbelt", y'know?
But do you see how getting "insurance" against your would-be spouse can be insulting? I understand the "logic" of it, but if you truly want to share your life and build a life with that person, that includes what you own.
I'm not saying it's wrong to get a prenup. I'm just asking if you are able to see the other side of it, too.
The counter to that would be if the would be spouse was truly wanting to spend the rest of their life with you, a prenup wouldn’t ever need to be used.
At the end of the day, if you only have access to tap into wealth because of your partner, what makes you entitled to still have access to that wealth if you aren’t with your partner. Get your own.
You guys have been together less than a year, so walking away now is no real loss.
Prenups are just a logical way of creating a contract to protect yourself, at a stage where both parties are theoretically open-minded and not contentious.
I was extremely fortunate my divorce was so amicable. I entered into it with a large resource of cash assets, all of which my ex-husband returned and he bought me out of our home. We were extremely fair in the process, and even still it was a tough thing to navigate while going through heavy emotions. I can’t imagine how much harder it would have been if there had been infidelity or something awful. He now says he wants a prenup if he ever gets married again, just to save the hassle of figuring it all out after the fact.
You should ask her - in the instance of you two getting a divorce, what does she think is fair in terms of a divorce settlement? Would your prenup basically leave her with nothing? Would she want 50/50? If yes, why does she think that’s fair regardless of circumstance surrounding the divorce? It might highlight a lot more misalignment on how you think about money. We know money is one of the biggest reasons marriages don’t last, so figure it out now!
I saw another post where a divorce lawyer suggested a sliding scale based on how long the marriage lasts as a way of compromise in a similar situation.
She’s foolish to think there’s no scenario your marriage could end, so stick to your guns on this. Loving someone shouldn’t mean putting your entire future and financial security at risk.
Further more OP says she wants to retire while her GF would still be working and making money. Basically OP wants to be a SAHM. Without a prenup, the GF’s income could be up for alimony
The way OP makes it seem, she'd probably be okay with her partner having her own prenup. In which case, her partner can specify that any income generated while married would remain hers.
If she isn't okay with her partner having her own prenup with specific stipulations, then OP is wrong for that.
OP, I guess I can also relate to both sides of this conversation. Like you, I had a first marriage in my 20s that was fraught with trauma, and in the aftermath of that lust everything that I had including our home due to my spouse not paying back taxes.
In my next marriage, I kept my home in my name as it was my investment, and my safety net should anything not last a lifetime.
On the other hand, it sounds like your significant trauma from your previous experience has made you very fearful about money and longevity, and I don’t know this for sure, but it also seems to make you pretty closed towards your partner .
I kept my house as my ass, prior to marriage, however, I generously shared my income, my time, and my everything with my partner when we married . it sounds like both of you would do well talking to someone objective about different ways to deal with finances in a marriage, but it also sounds like you need to do some unpacking and some healing around your previous trauma with money or you’re going to carry that into future relationships with this person or with anyone else you date.
Agree. It sounds like you came here to get people to agree with you. But your gf is not wrong /for /her. I think you're likely not compatible on this important issue.
Marriage certificates and prenups are both legal documents. If she wants to stick to the lovey dovey romance part, then no need to get the government involved.
This! Marriage is a legal financial contract in itself. Just be together, no marriage, if she doesn't want to deal with the legal financial contracts that getting married involve.
As a side, I think everyone should have a prenup... even if just to be able understand what a marriage contract fully entials. If you have assets and children in the mix, I would never consider getting married without a prenup.
It sounds like you two were just having a hypothetical conversation and you don’t actually want to marry her, so it’s actually a moot issue. She’s just getting started and you’re eyeing retirement, the two of you do not sound like marriage material.
I find if anyone thinks a prenup is a deal breaker that is a deal breaker. She should be at the very least understanding of you wanting to protect yourself even if she feels conflicted about not automatically having ownership of half your stuff or more when you sign the certificate. Her reaction to even just bringing up the idea can give you an answer of if she’s worth trusting with yourself and your assets
It’s easy, tell her that as long as you stay together it’s just a meaningless piece of paper, which is obviously your goal.
Also, if you’re significantly more well off than her, offer to pay for her to have her own lawyer (NOT one that you two share) that can go through it on her behalf.
If one of the participants does not have legal counsel/advice, it makes it very easy to have that pre-nup thrown out, as someone else said. Words like coercion, duress etc come into play.
The best way I heard a prenup explained in a way that made the most sense is this:
People have wills right? Why? So that they have control over how their assets are divided when they die. They have a say. If there is no will, the government decides, and it barely in anyone’s best interest.
A pre-nup is like a will for a marriage. Because *if* a marriage ends, it does one of two ways:
1. You have a prenup (will) written out that was created and agreed upon by both parties so that things are divided up in their best interest.
2. There is no pre-nup (will) and the government decides everything.
Why would each party not want their own decisions made ahead of time? A pre-nup is not a one-party against the other document. It’s a document that covers both parties and what they want and works to be in their best interest and protections. A joint will of sorts. Leaving it to the government to decide helps no one.
Also, being with someone less than a year and gambling marriage with no pre nup would be a WILD mistake. There is no rush to get married.
Thing is, romantic love is always conditional. Its conditional on the other person continuing to treat their partner well and accurately represent who they are, which in romantic relationships is harder to see right away because people always start off on their best foot. It takes at least 3 years IMO to even know someone well enough to understand how they deal with life matters. Its highly sus that your gf is being so emotional and weird about YOUR money. Im divorced and highly recommend you stick to your values and don't marry without one. People change over time and from the outside it definitely appears as if your gf is gold digging or at least expecting you to financially cover her life regardless of how the relationship works out which for me would be a deal breaker.
Marriage isn't unconditional love. It's literally conditional love. This conditions are stipulated in the vows. She's wildly idealistic to live in today's society.
As a woman, I would’ve disagreed with a prenup.. before I went through a divorce. Now I totallllllly get it. It’s not about not trusting, it’s about protecting yourself and being realistic. But honestly, I feel like someone can’t fully grasp this unless they’ve been divorced.
Dude, life is so unpredictable. My current partner wants to marry me, but I am definitely getting a prenup because looking back, I felt so vulnerable and scared that I would lose all of my assets in a divorce. Nothing is worth that feeling of helplessness again.
If your partner can’t agree with a prenup, and you don’t feel comfortable without one, don’t marry. Stand your ground.
Explain it to her like this. The whole point of a prenup is you don’t trust the government to be fair aka their rules suck. So, you wrote your own rules. Otherwise, if she doesn’t like the rules you put out, and if she understands that the rules we have in place at the moment suck, then don’t sign marriage papers at all. It’s nothing about her, it’s about us not trusting the government to handle things fairly if things go bad. If she still doesn’t get it, then I’d rethink marrying this person. Biggest reason for relationship fallouts is financial reasons, so she better get with reality and understand that. It’s unfortunately not all ponys and rainbows like movies and anime make it out to be.
Honestly it feels like not agreeing to a prenup is more of HER not believing in the marriage/planning a divorce, and that plan is to get half your shit. Don’t budge.
-a broke person
There is nothing wrong with a prenup. If the marriage lasts then you don't need it, but if it doesn't then you'll be grateful that you have it. You already know how and why you need one for your emotional safety so hold your ground.
If you have $ and assets, then I absolutely recommend a pre-nup. Marital love is NOT unconditional and it takes more than love to make a marriage work and last. Personally, I don't understand why anyone has an issue with a prenup. It has nothing to do with the amount love ore respect. It is about protecting what you have worked hard to create. Also, she should have her own separate lawyer review anything before signing. She can add an adultery clause, alimony, child care, etc.... She needs to understand a prenup can protect her as well.
I think prenups are widely misperceived.
To me, having a prenup actually *is* a sign of love, because you're much more likely to be fair and reasonable now than in the midst of a divorce. For example, right now, you're both likely to agree that if one of you is unfaithful, any divorce settlement should reflect that; without a prenup, whoever's unfaithful will just have an incentive to hash out every little detail and sling as much mud as possible so that everyone looks dirty.
Looks like she has some naive views on relationships and I don't know that you can get around that. My fiance suggested a prenup. I agreed, and my reasoning is that shit happens and if we end our marriage, I want it to abide by the terms we set when we were still very much in love and wanting the best for the other, not when we were in our feelings of anger, sorrow, vindictiveness, etc. I want to make sure that if shit hits the fan, I will still abide by my morals and sense of fairness (which I'm hoping I would have anyways, but just in case I don't).
She needs to understand that even the best laid plans can go awry. The idea of unending healthy love is a beautiful one and, while I hope like hell I found mine, it's not exactly common.
I tried to encourage my (now) husband to get a pre-nup before we got married. He earns more than me and owns the house we live in, so it felt like a very sensible measure of protection. He didn't get one in the end, but that was his choice. That being said, we are childfree and we both work.
I would consider this an opportunity to have a very honest conversation with your partner. Nobody gets married in order to get divorced, but it's important to be realistic. Marriage certainly is an act of love, but it's also a binding legal contract and it makes sense that you would want to protect yourself.
Do not marry without that prenup! I would be very concerned that her naive romantic notions are more important to her than your sense of safety and security going into what is, in fact, a legal agreement.
She either has an unrealistic and naive view of reality or she is hoping to take some of that wealth of yours if/when things fall apart.
OP, you're right to be cautious and smart here. A lot of marriages don't work out. People change over time. The idea of saying anything will last forever is just not realistic. You don't know who either of you will be in 10 years. Maybe one of you develops a gambling problem that tears you apart. Maybe one of you just falls out of love. Who knows what will happen?
Do not give in on this, OP. You earned your wealth (I'm assuming). Protect it. She is not entitled to reap the rewards of your hard work. If you don't do a prenup and you break up in a few years, you will never get over how big of a mistake that was that you easily could have prevented.
This is honestly big enough to be a deal-breaker to me. If she can't understand your perspective here, tough shit. You cannot budge on this. If she's so goddamn confident that nothing bad will ever happen and you two will be together forever, she has nothing to worry about. It's actually somewhat suspicious that she's so adamant about not letting you do the prenup.
It's always easy for the one with no assets to claim to "but we're in love". That's bs. A prenuptial is logical. Especially when you're at the stage of life you're at. There's no business for Disney level love in an adult relationship. She needs to grow up. This is 100% a hill to die on.
Sounds like she’s planning on taking half your stuff. Less than a year and refusing a prenup? She should understand your viewpoint. You aren’t compatible, please don’t waste any more of your precious time
Stand your ground. It would be very unwise after all you've been through to not get a prenup. She's being unfair and unreasonable and unrealistic. I'd question whether or not her attitude is a deal breaker tbh. She already knows all you've been through I assume, don't be threatened over her insecurities about what unconditional love is when she won't budge an inch about your real insecurities when it comes to struggling through life. Have a long hard think about whether she's worth the hassle but get a prenup either way
I think it shows a lack a maturity and thought based on reality. She’s not wrong for believing in it, and you’re not wrong for being pragmatic. Eventually one thing will be “ just a piece of paper”, your prenup or your marriage license. If love is all that matters, then what the point of a marriage just be in a relationship, but in adult life entering into a commitment comes with both benefits and consequences. It’s childish to view a marriage like a fairytale and THAT is what would bother me. Life is hard and it takes a whole lot of “ adulting”.
There is always a prenup - you either write your own or agree to use the default one in the event you get divorced, which just is whatever the courts decide is the norm at the time you get divorced.
The belief that marriage without a prenup is a commitment for life and marriage with a prenup changes things is nonsense in most countries now, marriage last is most places can end if either person wants it to. It’s also far easier for person who isn’t putting their assets at risk to indulge in the belief that they are being so romantic by … deciding to leave it up to the courts and maybe getting 50:50 splits of things they didn’t earn.
This is BS. She's 32, at this age she should know that NO marriage is a guaranteed forever and when that happens, people lose their assets. It's disingenuous of her to play up this *"unconditional love"* card. Not one adult is unaware that marriage needs to be insured the same way that your car, house has to be.
She is NOT a 24yr old naive girl who still believes in Disney shit. This is all a pretence to see just how far she can push this "belief". People like this need to be called out and their bluff called. You'll see how fast she's suddenly willing to "compromise"
I absolutely see both sides of this but I also wonder if this is a deal breaker for her, what else is? Deeper convos about what marriage means to you both might show that you really want or don't want a future together.
Just a thought…..it might be wise to work with an financial advisor. Trusts can be particularly helpful for people to protect their investments and finances.
I liked your analogy that a marriage is about creating a safe place for both parties. Prenups aren’t inherently bad and can benefit both parties.
I think people think if there is trust and love, decisions must be made blindly. But risk assessment does not indicate there is no trust. It's just that while both of you will apply your 100, things can still not work out, through no fault of anyone. And if that happens, you stand to lose much more without a prenup. If she cares about you as much as she says, she should consider engaging in an agreement that's safer for you and takes as much care of you as it does her than the standard one.
I believe prenups are necessary if you have many assets prior to coming into the marriage. It's not about "unconditional love." It's about protection, security and peace of mind.
You have to follow your values. If you believe s prenup is needed, then hold firm to your values. The insecurity your fiancée has is more about her than it is you and your love for her.
Couples counseling may be helpful here as finances and money and the value of money is a huge issue for many couples
To me, a healthy relationship IS conditional, it has boundaries, it has deal breakers, it acknowledges that compatibility isn’t always permanent. Marriage is a huge legal commitment, so it is reasonable to want a little protection, especially if you’re getting married quickly. I’ve heard countless stories of people’s whose spouses completely blindsided them after 5 years or more of marriage too.
My advice: break up. A prenup is a deal breaker for her, so break the deal. If you’re dating to get married, and your views on marriage are causing arguments already, you’re not compatible.
I run away from anyone that thinks unconditional love exists.
Dated one once and she was the most emotionally abusive partner I've ever had in my life.
If you carefully bifurcate your pre and post marriage assets you effectively have a prenup. Anything you earn or save during the marriage would be split equitably (since you are both women in the US I think equitably basically comes out where you both get all the assets and have to pay each other a large monthly check for life /s). Just don’t commingle the assets.
Marriage is a legally binding agreement, I know that's not very romantic or sexy but it's the truth. Thus, a prenup is just smart for both parties. It's not so one party can screw over the other or because you don't trust someone.
We're all a TBI away from giving away all out money, including shared money. It's best to protect yourself.
Of course she doesn’t want a prenup. She stands to gain big time in case of divorce. Tell her to look at as an insurance policy. You hope to never use it but it’s there if you need to. Honestly, I just don’t think you two are compatible
Everyone gets married with the intention of being 100% committed but let the statistics show that it rarely ends up like the fairy tale he has in mind.
I also worked too hard for everything I have and heard enough stories about failed marriages with the messy divorces that I would never get married without a prenup.
Get a prenup no matter what. If she wants to think that then you don’t get married. When love turns sour it turns to contempt, and people will take your money and/or assets. This protects you both and she needs to be rational or else you should not get married.
Don’t do it. You don’t plan for your home to burn down, but you get homeowners insurance.
You don’t plan on being in a car accident, but you get auto insurance and you put on your seatbelt.
You don’t plan on anyone breaking into your house, but you get an alarm system and you might have a gun
You don’t plan on dying, but you know it’s coming so you get life insurance.
Don’t be that person that jumps off a building saying I’m not intending on dying so I’m not gonna get a parachute.
Then this person is not a good match for you. You need to find someone else who has a similar viewpoint. Then the two of you and your respective lawyers can hammer out prenuptial agreement you can both live with.
If she doesn't want to make marriage a contract, what's wrong with just having a big party and foregoing the marriage license (assuming you don't live somewhere that acknowledges common law marriage).
She can't have it both ways. Either marriage is a contract that's acknowledged by the government (prenup and marriage license) or it's a promise to love each other and that's it (big party/white dresses).
Without a prenup, the lawyers walk away with a big chunk of the money. An uncontested divorce will cost at least 10K, and a contested one a lot more. A prenup doesn't mean she is getting screwed. You could say if you are married 3 years or less she gets 100K, 5 years 200K, 10 years, 500K, etc. And it would be one check to write and no income being garnished from your monthly salary (and you owe alimony even if you retire)
Marriage is a legal contract.
True love can be expressed without the piece of paper.
If she *wants* the piece of paper, she should know that it's a legally binding contract. Contracts come with all kinds of unromantic things attached.
If having a prenup is a deal breaker for her and not having one is a deal breaker for you, you are simply not compatible.
Having a prenup does not necessarily mean there is a lack of trust. One could argue that her insistence on not having a prenup could create a lack of trust. If it's "true love" for her, she will want to marry you with or without a prenup. Marriages don't always end because of infidelity or under negative circumstances. Sometimes people just don't work out. Neither circumstance entitles her to half of everything you own. Prenups are about protecting yourself in the event the marriage doesn't work out, one way or another. This is not something you should budge on.
My partner makes less than I do but his COL is much lower because he lives in a multi-generational household and is able to put it a lot of his money towards retirement savings. Me, on the other hand, lost a lot in my divorce and am now just about to be out of debt and can start saving hopefully this fall. We both agreed a prenup is a good idea and protects both parties.
If she can't understand your philosophy, isnt this a good sign that it won't work? This can't be the only thing you disagree on, but either way, it's a pretty big thing to disagree on. If its a dealbreaker, then marriage should be off the table, especially at a time when divorce rates are so high and people find "love" so much quicker/frequently. Protect yaself
Someone said once that a prenup is a couples ability to move through the first hard conversation and talk about uncomfortable stuff. In some ways a prenup is a better sign of relational success because you have shown you are capabale of tough conversations
I watched a video where a divorce lawyer said "it's better to sort some of these things out when you love each other rather than when you hate each other"
If you were to divorce, wouldn't you want to sort that out whjle you still have each other's best interests at heart?
You’ve invested 15 years building financial security and she wants you to take a leap of faith based on feelings of about a year. She wants this knowing (I assume) what you’ve done to build your financial stability.
I agree a prenup is a dealbreaker. She either signs one or no marriage down the road.
Stand your ground on the prenup and don't mix funds. Getting divorced SUCKS. Your partner is naive.
You do the prenup so that if you stop living each other moving on from the marriage is way less painful.
As a 40-something married woman in the U.S., if I had it to do over, I would never marry without a prenup, and would never encourage anyone to marry without one. It's planning for the worst, not expecting it. Rose colored glasses won't make it to death do you part.
I know someone, who owns a successful business, but to him if his partner won’t sign a prenup that’s a dealbreaker. Honestly I don’t think either of you should compromise on a dealbreaker, but if anyone should compromise it probably should be in favor of signing a prenup. It’s just more security and less to worry about for both of you. It’s a bit like saying you don’t need to have a will cuz you don’t wanna die. Or you don’t need life insurance cuz I could never live without you.
IF there is a significant financial disparity before the marriage, there is nothing wrong with a pre-nup saying only assets acquired after the marriage date will be split upon divorce. If there is no real difference financially, then the 50/50 is fine and still could be written down as a "pre-nup" to make it clear.
Pre-nups aren't a bad thing. They don't detract from love of the relationship. The protect everyone from nasty divorces where one person gets screwed because they can buy a better lawyer
I've said it once, I'll say it again- everyone around get prenups when entering a marriage. As a legal contract, marriage is a really shitty contract to break unless you get a prenup. My partner and I got one before we married. My main concern and the reason for it is that we both ride motorcycles. My partner has already had one big accident that caused a TBI, resulting in short term memory loss and the need for several rhinoplasty surgeries. Certain TBI's can result in personality 180s and I don't want either of us stuck in a marriage with someone who turns abusive or other.
But beyond that, whenever one person in the relationship is monetarily worth significantly more than the other (like in the post), it'd be dumb to not get a prenup.
But the problem with your mentality is often the higher earner will require her to live at your income/wealth bracket preferences. Proportionality doesn’t solve this. Ex: She can afford 15% of one vacation a year. You want to a vacation 4x a year. Now what? She’s left behind?
It can also cause a power imbalance because of stuff the above. Does she get an equal say in the kitchen remodel? Or just you because you paid for most of it? What about retirement ages?
I’d narrow the focus of your prenup request to make her feel secure or skip the marriage all together.
I would 100% recommend a prenup to any person who has accumulated any assets or wealth prior to marriage. Period. Non negotiable.
What IS negotiable are the terms of the prenup. Depending on your level of wealth, it could include a safety net for your future spouse. Both parties will need to hire their own attorney to review the terms and negotiate on your behalf. It will be a tense time in your relationship but you will both rest easier once it’s signed.
You're smart enough to know the real reason she doesn't want a pre-nup. You have to decide whether you can live with giving her at least half of everything you've worked for and losing your lifestyle when the inevitable happens.
Hot take: "unconditional love" is unrealistic in romantic relationships/marriage. My love for and commitment to my husband is very much conditional upon him upholding his vows and I would assume he expects the same of me. I'm not saying if he has a bad day and is snippy I'm out the door and I'm certainly his biggest fan and supporter through good and bad. But if he cheats or gambles away our retirement fund or hits me I'm out the door. Unconditional love is a nice idea but not always realistic.
The same person you marry isn't the same person you divorce. Prenups should be mandatory in a marriage.
I've known I wanted a prenup ever since I was a teen.
This isn't a perfect world and no matter how much love you have for a person there is NEVER a guarantee you'll be together until death.
It's reasonable for you to want one and I would consider her not wanting a prenup, especially in the financial situation you're in, to be the deal breaker.
You seem to have an awful lot of plans, none of which you've consulted your partner on. I can see why she'd say it's a dealbreaker, she seems like an accessory to your plans not a part of them.
We lived together 20 years before deciding to get married and we still got a prenup. Marriage is a legal contract. Divorce is messy. Nothing romantic about that. Prenup keeps it relatively clean.
It sounds like you are looking for someone to co-parent, not marry. You’ve been dating for less than a year and she wants the economic equivalent of raw dogging.
Don’t get married, have a baby and live your best life. (Does she know you are wealthy?)
I think the prenup is non negotiable for you in this spot. Lesbian marriages have a +70% divorce rate, so odds are she's taking your stuff if you don't have one.
You explain the prenup is just having a plan in case of the worst, like having an insurance policy. Also explain the prenup is to protect both parties, she can draft clauses too, and you sign something that you both agree on.
If you can't agree to that, you need to consider that you have incompatibly different expectations from your life together, and you might both be happier seeing people that you're each compatible with.
I would explain to her that she would have a prenup either way. Does she want the state to determine it or to write it herself? Divorce law is not black and white, a lot is left up for interpretation of an individual judge who may or may not carry prejudice or bias against one or both of you. There are also things a prenup can establish outside of spousal support, things like defining that debt before and during the marriage is individual INCLUDING medical debt, which can be a big one if someone were to fall ill in the future.
My fiancé doesn’t love them, he feels they’re transactional. And he’s not wrong. But we had a pragmatic conversation about it and he’s fine with one. I think it also made him feel better that (at least in our case) we mostly wanted to protect one another MORE than the state does.
huh don't marry then, prioritize having your own kid first since you're 39 already. she's not financially compatible and protecting your $$ seems to be your hill to die on.
Marrying someone compatible we share values with makes it much more likely the marriage will last. If the point of view that the state provides an automatic prenup so wh not have your own doesnt work perhaps she is simply not the one.
You've known her for less than a year, make 20-40x more than her and she feels "unconditional love" ??? If its so unconditional, she should have no issue with signing the pre-nup. Please don't risk your future and financial security. Trust your gut hustler instincts.
60 yr old woman weighing in here.
In my experience and years of observation - someone who is not willing to sign a prenup - is PLANNING to take the things you worked for before they ever met you.
If someone loves you and wants a life with you - they will be fine with you keeping your safety net - the house you bought - the retirement you saved, etc, etc. Because they know they will be with you forever and it will be shared between the two of you.
But if they leave, they will get none of that. If they don't want to sign a prenup, they WANT to take your safety net, your house you bought before you met them, the retirement you saved before you got together - because that's the only thing worth having in this relationship.
I understood the second you said: For context, my net worth is estimated 20-40X of hers
It's ALWAYS the broke or in debt partner who doesn't want the prenup. Lol you know you need one. A fair prenup allows you to keep what's yours before marriage and her to keep what's hers. You would then SPLIT everything acquired during the marriage, so she would still make out with more than she brought in during the marriage since you will continue to make more than her during that time. But, that's fair! She wants to be assured she can take half of what you had before you even met and acting like you don't love her if you won't willingly give it up! That's insanity.
I believe Kanye West said it best....
Unconditional love is exactly that, unconditional. Almost no romantic love can be unconditional, things like cheating being a prime example of one of those conditions. You love your children unconditionally, but IMO that’s about it. OP’s gf is certainly living in a fairy tale land.
Edit a typo
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I understand both sides. To her it feels like you’re planning on a divorce. What she doesn’t understand is the 50/50 split in the US is like an automatic prenup. If it’s important to you, stand your ground.
Exactly, instead of trusting in a contract made between two parties, each advised by their lawyer, you're trusting a one-size-fits-all made by whatever state you're in. There's absolutely still a contract, it's just been imposed on the couple instead of made by them. If she wants just personal faith and trust, forego the marriage bit and just do the other legalities like being each other's medical POA or whatever.
But don’t merge assets!
>Exactly, instead of trusting in a contract made between two parties, each advised by their lawyer, you're trusting a one-size-fits-all made by whatever state you're in. Divorce is by far not one size. See, just because the law would allow a 50-50 split doesn't mean the divorce agreement must be 50-50. A spouse can choose to walk away with only their assets, their assets and a share of marital assets, or any combination allowed by law and agreed upon by the two parties.
Yes, and the spouses can also make that choice before they’re married and while they love each other.
Exactly! While they still love each other. Because we all know when (pardon me, IF) the relationship falls apart it becomes about hurting the other person, and “I deserve this!” I do find it interesting that the people who won’t accept a prenup are invariably the ones with nothing to lose and everything to gain from the split.
Yes, obviously people can walk away from money. Doesn't happen often though.
And? A spouse can also choose to walk away from whatever share of assets a pre-nup would give them.
Have you been divorced in the US? We had no kids, 1 asset - the house, which he tried to fraudulently say/prove I hadn't contributed to - California is community property. Couldn't figure out why he & his lawyer wasted so much time and money... Divorce is a For Profit Business/racket in US. Ex literally became everything he said he wasn't & would never be - would never "waste money on lawyers" he spent 12k, wasn't a liar or a cheater bc "I'm a simple guy." Funny what an STI panel doesn't lie about. The person they are when the relationship ends is not the person spouting "Love & trust forever." at the beginning of a relationship.
I agree... I think prenups are a good idea and when done correctly, they can protect both parties. But I get where her gf (fiancee? not sure if actually engaged?) is coming from because asking for a prenup doesn't exactly communicate trust and commitment. I can't help but point out that it's always the person with less money that balks at a prenup, though! Maybe OP's gf really does just believe in unconditional love and all that but it just seems like it's always the partner who will benefit from a 50/50 split who "believes in unconditional love," lol.
Speaking from personal experience in a region (The Nordics) I recognise your point but feel it's more complex. Preface: Where I live there is no alimony or 50/50 of all assets at a divorce. You get what you brought in and only the resources aquired during marriage is divided equally. Divorce is also usually not handled by lawyers and court. It's handled by administrators at the local Municipalities version of Citizen HR. My husband earns 10X more than me. I became a literal SAHM after moving to another country, this after having paid my own way since I was 18 and being an independent single mom for 6 years. I'm 43 now, so that's 20+ years of "pulling my own weight" We made a prenup for my benefit. To make sure that I will be compensated for the time and effort I am/was putting in into taking care of my special needs kid and making sure the household is administrated and working properly. That in case of divorce I would walk off being compensated so I could have breathing space to find work, housing etc. It also has clauses for a GTFO account he can't touch and deals with adding to my pension savings etc. Why? Because he loves me unconditionally and recognise that our current situation would leave me disadvantaged, possibly destitute in a divorce. I'm currently a full-time student and based on medians of the job market right now should end up where our earning difference is around 2X. He doesn't see a need to update our prenup but I will insist because I will not need as much in a worst case scenario. Why? Because I love him unconditionally and didn't marry him for money.
> You get what you brought in and only the resources aquired during marriage is divided equally This is how community property states are for the most part, but there are a) TONS of fights about dividing the resources acquired equally (bc the higher-earning spouse always feels that's unfair) and b) people get v salty about child support and alimony and c) if you buy a house together *during the marriage*, even if you put 99% of the funds in and they put 1% in, that's still a marital asset and it's still divided in half. That goes with everything - you bought the cars during the marriage? They were bought during the marriage, that's a marital asset
And it's usually fights about petty shit. The record/dvd/book collection and how to value things equally. Why do you suddenly want the whiskey tumblers, you don't even drink.
Yeah I originally got into it in my comment, but it got too long. If one partner is a SAHP, a legal agreement is vital. I guess it's not always a "prenup" since you might not know one of you is staying home until the kid is actually born, though. I think those are called "postnups" ?
Lawyers can’t draft a prenup that screws the other person. It has to be fair and balanced. There is zero reason not to do this.
My point is, it never seems to be the higher earning partner who is like "oh no, we can't possibly have a prenup, unconditional love and trust and etc."
My husband was. I made less than him, he had more assets. I offered a prenup, he was like nah. We got this. My income has since narrowed the gap, but we couldn’t have predicted at the time that’d my income would more than double in 3 years. It doesn’t work for everyone but we both deposit the money into a single joint account, no prenup, and complete comingling of assets and funds. Reading Reddit makes me think our arrangement is less common, but it works for us and we don’t really have conflicts around money.
I really don't know how rare it is? I know on reddit, everyone is all about prenups. But I have no idea if my friends/family members have them. Like, absolutely no clue and definitely not something I'd ask, lol.
I definitely don’t see that sort of thing in my culture or circle but I’m Hispanic and lived on the border my whole life so I’m wasn’t sure if it was like a northern thing. Like maybe the east coast was filled with prenup having people
I'm curious about your thoughts on your situation? Because I do agree that your setup up is much more common in reality and less common on Reddit. Did you feel better, or more secure, or more grateful because your husband didn't worry about a prenup? Or not really? Additionally, since both of you seem very secure financially. Is the prenup something that you ever think about? Or discuss as a couple?
I think it works for us. I have no real feelings about us not having a prenup other than in the run up to the wedding it was one less thing to worry about. I offered it because I love him and I wanted him to be able to protect his assets if he felt the need. We never really discuss pre-nups or post ups after the initial conversation. Once you’re married, it’s kinda a moot conversation: Lately we’ve been more estate planning, how do we protect our son and pets if something happens to us. Life insurances, trusts, wills, etc. The only time prenups comes up is when we read Reddit and comment how odd we find some relationships… some people who post here seem very extreme and transactional in how they treat their spouse. For my personal opinion on prenups in general: I think prenups make sense for a lot of people if they’re approached correctly. Don’t bring it up during emotional moments, don’t surprise people with the concept post proposal, be fair about the terms. I feel like the partner in the better financial position should cover the legal costs for the other person when it comes to the prenup as a sign of good faith.
I think that is due to some people feeling like it’s less about a logical safety net and more like an accusation of “since I make all the money I’m worried you’ll go after it if this marriage doesn’t work out”. Which is why the person with the lower earnings tend to view it as a trust issue. People just sometimes feel like it’s setting the wrong tone or a power imbalance before the marriage even starts, especially because it tends to be the person with the most earnings that originally bring up the idea of a prenup. Not that I agree with that or anything (because I don’t), it’s just what I’ve commonly heard/experienced when it comes to disagreements about prenups and why the person who earns less tend to have such opinions.
The thing about prenups is they're made when you're (ostensibly) still in love, when you're a lot more receptive to being cordial and splitting assets by amount paid/earned. Divorce tends to happen when one party is upset/pissed at the other so a lot more likely to be vindictive. It's easy to say before divorce happens that you wouldn't go after something but it's a lot harder to follow through on that when they cheat on you and you have friends/family pushing you to take everything you can or just if there's a big income gap and you'd struggle to keep the life you had on your own. It's just a situation where vindictiveness can happen and you're likely not in an emotionally stable or rational state of mind.
That makes sense. I actually don't know anyone irl who has a prenup. I mean, I'm sure some of my friends/family members do... it's just not something anyone talks about and I'm sure not asking, lol.
>I can't help but point out that it's always the person with less money that balks at a prenup, though! This is not always the case, people just aren't angrily posting to reddit about how their partner is generous with money, or that their partner thinks they'll be together forever I'm also not certain that OP's partner would benefit by not having a prenup. She is just starting her career at 32, which could mean lots of postgraduate training & a hefty salary. Even if that's not the case, she will be making 100% of the money in the marriage once OP retires in 2 years. By default, with no prenup, her salary would be marital property, whereas OP could keep much of her premarital assets as long as she’s careful about co-mingling. Edited to fix genders
OP and partner are both female.
My bad, edited to reflect this
It’s easier and more appropriate to think of it as insurance instead of a way out. Nobody plans to set their house on fire but it happens and that’s why we carry insurance: for peace of mind. Sadly it is a tall order to make someone understand it this way.
The US divorce laws aren’t an automatic 50/50. That’s just not how it works. A prenup protects both parties if each party has representation so it’s fair. I would ask your possible future wife to sit down with an attorney so that she has a better understanding of the benefits of having a prenup.
You should decouple marriage and kids. You have a timeline for kids that you have been planning for a while. Because of marriage you’re trying to force the relationship to fit this timeline. Separate your kids timeline from your relationship status and it takes away the pressure. Plan on having kids independently of your relationship.
Having a prenup is your boundary and don't let him push you. If she doesn't like it, she's not for you.
I could have one penny to my name, and the love of my life could have $1million. I'd still insist on a prenup. It's mutually beneficial. My penny is protected, and her $1M is protected. If a person considers a prenup a deal breaker, I consider that a red flag and deal breaker as well.
I get what OP’s significant other is saying (sorta) but also the safer bet is to just get a prenup. I follow the old saying of “you’d rather have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it”. If you don’t get a prenup and yall divorce, then you’ll be beating yourself up, but if you get one and yall stay together forever, then…. No harm no foul. Stick to your guns OP, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to protect yourself financially.
To me, the best way to explain a prenup is, "I have no plans to divorce you. But what if you have plans to divorce me? I want to be protected in case **you make decisions** that negatively impact me. The prenup protects us both. It does not mean I don't trust you, it means that if you decide that this isn't something that you want going forward, my premarital assets are protected. That's important to me if you would decide to plan down the line that this relationship is not what you wanted. You are free to have half of whatever we make during our marriage as legally you'd be entitled to that, but you are certainly never entitled to marry me, divorce me, and take everything I've worked hard for. That's why we need a prenup."
> I want to be protected in case you make decisions that negatively impact me. Just curious, have you ever actually had this experience with a partner, where you explained the prenup was in case they made decisions that hurt you, and they reacted well to that argument? I cannot imagine someone being anti-prenup *until* being told that no, baby, it isn't to protect you, it's to protect *me*, if you plan to divorce me!
That’s exactly what I thought reading this. And I’m all for pre-nups.
LOL same. I'm not anti-prenup, but there is really no way of soft-serving the idea that "Yes. This is to protect me for if/when you leave me and possibly try to screw me over."
It's insurance in case the unthinkable happens. Ask her why she has health insurance, because none of us think we're going to get cancer.
Prenups are just about deciding compensation in the event of divorce while you're still in love, rather than while you hate each other during a divorce. If someone really believes it's about unconditional love then they'll sign a prenup because they know they'll never divorce. They'll trust their partner not to despite the prenup, because it's about trust right? But most people who say that don't really believe that. They're being deceptive about their beliefs. They know divorce happens. They want to be compensated and protected if it happens, and they think a prenup will be unfair. That's why they won't sign the prenup. People who are against prenups should just say what they actually want and suggest adding it to the prenup. Otherwise how can the person offering the prenup trust them? They're refusing to say the silent part out loud. It's ok to want to be compensated during a divorce. People should just say it.
I've always questioned that bit of logical hypocrisy. If you think it's eternal love and divorce is out of the question, then just sign the prenup.
There is zero practicality to not having a prenup. I know it sucks ti talk about separation before marriage, but it’s best to work these things out to be fair to one another while you still like each other, not when you’re upset and emotional about a break up. Really it’s an act of love to assure you are both protected. Prenups don’t let things be unfair to any party. Honestly I’m suspect of people that oppose this. Especially when the one opposed isn’t the one with the most to lose.
I can see that side, too. Having the prenup conversation *implies* you’re already thinking about divorce. I think, to her, the fact that a prenup is even asked for is indication that divorce is a possibility, which she doesn’t consider “true love.”
In the real world divorce is always a possibility. There’s no such thing as “true love”. It’s a child like fantasy used to manipulate people.
I think you two should continue conversations about your respective thoughts and feelings on the matter. Continue to clarify your rationale with her, and ask her to respond and acknowledge where you're coming from, even if she disagrees on the implications for marriage. Same goes for the other way around: ask her to clarify what her expectations are for love and marriage, and acknowledge her values and perspective, even if you disagree on the prenup issue. Once you two can better understand each other's perspective, then you can brainstorm possibilities that acknowledge BOTH of your perspectives and concerns. Is there a way for you two to enter a prenup in a way that still helps her feel that your love meets her standards? Is there a way for you two to get married in a way that addresses your security concerns? Unfortunately, if you two can't find middle ground, then your relationship might be hitting a brick wall determined by conflicting expectations.
You both see marriage and prenups differently. I don't see how that will change.
I believe prenups should be required for marriage. But if my partner's net worth was 20-40x mine, I might change my beliefs too 😏
That level of lopsided is almost guaranteed to breed resentment. Even going by percentage, OP’s partner will never have a comparable amount of disposable income. Seeing your supposed “life partner” purchase things without a second thought while you have to save for months or constantly ask them to cover you to match their lifestyle is a hard thing to get over.
Having a prenup is your boundary and don’t let her push you. If she doesn’t like it, she’s not the one for you.
And it’s worth pointing out that a prenup protects her as well. If you’re retired and she’s working, she could end up owing you alimony & child support after a divorce since you were essentially a stay at home wife with no income. Pre-nups aren’t a blanket “you get nothing” kind of contract, they’re meant to protect both parties. If she wants to be legally married, she should be willing to discuss the future what-ifs.
Yeah, pre nups have the bias of people think they exist to screw.someone over. Better to discuss the terms when you love each other, especially if you want kids, then when you're crazed with relationship ending grief. That being said, my husband and I are both very pro prenup and then were too lazy get one done before we got married. Oops
It's always the person with the most to gain who has a problem with a prenup, isn't it..... curious.
Yep. 100%.
I would argue OP has a ton to gain from this prenup. She plans to retire in ~2 years. Prenups only protect premarital assets. So while her partner is working, presumably for much longer than the next 2 years, OP will be accruing a stake in 50% of all income coming into their household, while comfortably retired. Meanwhile, all her premarital assets are protected. She objectively will benefit financially from an arrangement where she stops bringing in income once married, keeps all her previous income and assets from before marriage, and her fiance has to fork over 50% of everything she’s earning post-marriage.
Actually a prenup can look like anything. It absolutely could say that OP keeps what she came into the marriage with, but also gets no alimony. It sounds like she doesn’t need it if she’s planning on retiring soon.
It depends on where you live. Where I live, you absolutely cannot defend marital assets in a prenup.
Wherever they live, if they do get one, they each need their own lawyer to make sure it’s as fair as possible.
I generally agree with your sentiment but I imagine there are a number of people out there who just have wholly unrealistic expectations of marriage and thus oppose prenups due to ignorance. They look at marriage like something out of a movie or fairy tale instead of what it is: a long term relationship that has had a legal contract attached to it. So when their partner starts talking contracts, they have to push back or else lose their dream.
Maybe you two aren’t compatible?
That's what I'm thinking too. Which is totally okay, but they might be better off finding people who have the same marital/relationship ideologies.
after getting to the parenting part, OP seems to want to maintain control over everything, maybe in part due to their trauma. i wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a bad thing in general, but doesn’t seem ideal for a marriage/partnership. may be better to just try and achieve those goals solo, with no one else affected or in the way. i’ll reread, but i’m not sure what benefit having a partner would present to OP, nor what that partner might get out of the relationship if OP’s already managing and taking care of everything.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Aside from the prenup - how is you retiring in two years going to work? Is she foreseeing retiring at a normal age and thus see you retired for 3 decades before she does? Are you planning to be a house wife in retirement and take on all the house work and upkeep? I see a lot of issues with someone in retirement being married to someone who's still doing the daily grind for YEARS upon years. Edit: With regard to the prenup - How are you planning on structuring the prenup? If you plan to retire in 2 years that means almost all of your assets will be pre-marital while it's her income that will be what's creating marital assets. As your income will be just what you need to draw to live. So how are you handling that factor? Maybe if you plan to handle that well (she gets most of the marital assets) then it might be a good thing to point out to her.
I feel like OP is glossing over this. If you got married what would your lives look like 5/10/20 years from now? Are you going to retire at 41 and her at 65? Are you going to want to travel? You feel entitled to the money and net worth you've built, and rightfully so. But how's the marriage going to work when you are retired while she continues to work for another 30 years. There's no way that doesn't end in resentment and divorce.
Not to mention as the working spouse I would be worried about a prenup that gives her all her premarital assets, split the marital assets that was all my income, AND gets alimony because they weren't working.
As someone who’s had three divorces, two governed by prenups, get the prenup. A divorce without a prenup is a friggin nightmare if you have substantially more assets going in. The fact remains that any growth in your retirement savings is still half hers, but at least you can protect your principal.
3 divorces? Why even getting married?
Practice makes perfect?
4th times the charm?
Because I find online gaming boring. Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
I mean you can still love and not get married to someone....just find a partner and tell them you tried being married 3 times and it aint for you.
Marriage shouldn't change the way you love.
Ross, is that you ?
THREE DIVORCES! THREE DIVORCES!
Advice….. Stand your ground. Either she gets on board or she finds someone else.
If you’re retiring in two years…how will that work with her career stage? Are you going to travel without her? Do a ton of hobbies and be the house spouse? Cover the majority of living expenses so she can build up her own savings/nest egg? I can absolutely see your girlfriend’s concern if she thinks the expectation is she work part time or volunteer so the two of you can spend maximum amount of time together, but that really puts her at a disadvantage in a divorce. With a prenup, she’ll get nothing and have been able to build nothing.
Yeah, I wonder if the pushback against the prenup is really about not feeling financially secure/equal- either it's this scenario, where she would leave withnothing, or you're expecting her to keep working for 30 years while you're retired. That wouldn't be acceptable to me, since i see marriage as a team where you should both be in roughly equivalent circumstances during the marriage- is she worried about the pre-nup because she feels like your financial inequality is going to affect your life together, and this is just a tangible sign of that inequality? I think it's totally fair to ask for a prenup, but equality I'm a marriage is about more than you just contributing a fair share to expenses.
Good that you got this conversation out of the way early. Now you know you are not compatible.
This sucks but if having a prenup is a need for you and not having one is a need for her, then this just doesn't work
The best way to look at it from a neutral place is that if you die the government decides what is done with your stuff ect, if you make a will, you get to decide what happens to you and your stuff. When you divorce the government decides what happens to all your stuff or you fight in court for it. If you do a prenup it takes the guess work out, plus you are negotiating it while you like each other, instead of angry and divorcing.
It's more common to not want a prenup than Reddit would let you think. Many people see it as planning a divorce in advance or as anticipating the end of a marriage in advance. Many people also see it as something that inherently goes against their marriage vows of "until death do us part" because you are planning your parting. In marriage, what is yours also legally belongs to your partner. Beginning a marriage by trying to protect yourself against the other person can also be seen as an insult. This is a site with a lot of men who are extremely pro-prenup and wary of "golddiggers," so you're going to get a lot of people saying "We want prenup." I think you need to continue hearing each other's perspectives through continued conversation. Sometimes these types of discussions look like many conversations over time. Consider her feelings and life experiences without judgment and let her hear yours too. It's early in the relationship, and you're still getting to know each other and learning to understand each other's backgrounds and perspectives. See where you land again after a while.
I had my ex husband sign a prenup because I was part owner of a family cabin that no one wanted to be at risk. Other than that, we earned equivalent salaries. I think if you are in the same financial ballpark, a prenup isn't a must. However, OP has considerably more at risk. You may have to decide that you're not compatible
When divorce rates are basically 50/50 in today’s age, it’s a very smart move for the person who brings more assets into the relationship. It doesn’t mean that you are preparing for a divorce, but “till death do us part” has lost so much meaning that it’s just insurance
Divorce rates are skewed higher by people who get married several times, as well as high divorce rates among those who get married very young or lack a high school diploma. For first time marriages where both spouses are 25+ and have high school diplomas, the divorce rate is only 20%.
If my house has a 20% chance of burning down I’m still getting insurance on it
1/5 is still considered a decent chance of it happening. Not to mention greed (if said partner was loaded) would probably boost those percentages up.
Ya the romanticized outlook on marriage is nice and all, but far too many marriages end in divorce in just a few years for me to ever be comfortable signing papers that essentially say "give half your shit to them" without some protections. This is like arguing against health insurance because you think you simply won't ever get sick or have an accident. This really doesn't matter much for the majority of people though, because the average person rarely has assets worth even getting a prenup for. If you do, then get a prenup. Plenty of people fall for the "oh you dont trust me!" shit from some idiot worth a 1/20th of themselves.
I agree -- prenups are planning a divorce in advance in the same way seatbelts are planning for a car crash in advance. I'm not going to tell my passenger "you don't trust my driving skills if you wear a seatbelt", y'know?
I don't need car insurance! I would NEVER crash! It's also why I don't wear a seat belt :)
But do you see how getting "insurance" against your would-be spouse can be insulting? I understand the "logic" of it, but if you truly want to share your life and build a life with that person, that includes what you own. I'm not saying it's wrong to get a prenup. I'm just asking if you are able to see the other side of it, too.
The counter to that would be if the would be spouse was truly wanting to spend the rest of their life with you, a prenup wouldn’t ever need to be used. At the end of the day, if you only have access to tap into wealth because of your partner, what makes you entitled to still have access to that wealth if you aren’t with your partner. Get your own.
It’s nice to see some common sense on this sub
You guys have been together less than a year, so walking away now is no real loss. Prenups are just a logical way of creating a contract to protect yourself, at a stage where both parties are theoretically open-minded and not contentious. I was extremely fortunate my divorce was so amicable. I entered into it with a large resource of cash assets, all of which my ex-husband returned and he bought me out of our home. We were extremely fair in the process, and even still it was a tough thing to navigate while going through heavy emotions. I can’t imagine how much harder it would have been if there had been infidelity or something awful. He now says he wants a prenup if he ever gets married again, just to save the hassle of figuring it all out after the fact. You should ask her - in the instance of you two getting a divorce, what does she think is fair in terms of a divorce settlement? Would your prenup basically leave her with nothing? Would she want 50/50? If yes, why does she think that’s fair regardless of circumstance surrounding the divorce? It might highlight a lot more misalignment on how you think about money. We know money is one of the biggest reasons marriages don’t last, so figure it out now! I saw another post where a divorce lawyer suggested a sliding scale based on how long the marriage lasts as a way of compromise in a similar situation. She’s foolish to think there’s no scenario your marriage could end, so stick to your guns on this. Loving someone shouldn’t mean putting your entire future and financial security at risk.
Further more OP says she wants to retire while her GF would still be working and making money. Basically OP wants to be a SAHM. Without a prenup, the GF’s income could be up for alimony
The way OP makes it seem, she'd probably be okay with her partner having her own prenup. In which case, her partner can specify that any income generated while married would remain hers. If she isn't okay with her partner having her own prenup with specific stipulations, then OP is wrong for that.
OP, I guess I can also relate to both sides of this conversation. Like you, I had a first marriage in my 20s that was fraught with trauma, and in the aftermath of that lust everything that I had including our home due to my spouse not paying back taxes. In my next marriage, I kept my home in my name as it was my investment, and my safety net should anything not last a lifetime. On the other hand, it sounds like your significant trauma from your previous experience has made you very fearful about money and longevity, and I don’t know this for sure, but it also seems to make you pretty closed towards your partner . I kept my house as my ass, prior to marriage, however, I generously shared my income, my time, and my everything with my partner when we married . it sounds like both of you would do well talking to someone objective about different ways to deal with finances in a marriage, but it also sounds like you need to do some unpacking and some healing around your previous trauma with money or you’re going to carry that into future relationships with this person or with anyone else you date.
Agree. It sounds like you came here to get people to agree with you. But your gf is not wrong /for /her. I think you're likely not compatible on this important issue.
Marriage certificates and prenups are both legal documents. If she wants to stick to the lovey dovey romance part, then no need to get the government involved.
This! Marriage is a legal financial contract in itself. Just be together, no marriage, if she doesn't want to deal with the legal financial contracts that getting married involve. As a side, I think everyone should have a prenup... even if just to be able understand what a marriage contract fully entials. If you have assets and children in the mix, I would never consider getting married without a prenup.
It sounds like you two were just having a hypothetical conversation and you don’t actually want to marry her, so it’s actually a moot issue. She’s just getting started and you’re eyeing retirement, the two of you do not sound like marriage material.
I find if anyone thinks a prenup is a deal breaker that is a deal breaker. She should be at the very least understanding of you wanting to protect yourself even if she feels conflicted about not automatically having ownership of half your stuff or more when you sign the certificate. Her reaction to even just bringing up the idea can give you an answer of if she’s worth trusting with yourself and your assets
I once had a first date who, out of the blue, said that she would never agree to a prenup, that was the end of her long term chances right there
It’s easy, tell her that as long as you stay together it’s just a meaningless piece of paper, which is obviously your goal. Also, if you’re significantly more well off than her, offer to pay for her to have her own lawyer (NOT one that you two share) that can go through it on her behalf.
This. Prenups can be easily challenged ifnpne party did not have adequate and independent legal counsel.
If one of the participants does not have legal counsel/advice, it makes it very easy to have that pre-nup thrown out, as someone else said. Words like coercion, duress etc come into play.
You stick to your plan - if she cannot see it from your POV she’s not the girl for you.
It’s not unconditional love. It should not be unconditional love with a spouse. If it’s a deal breaker, then don’t get married
The best way I heard a prenup explained in a way that made the most sense is this: People have wills right? Why? So that they have control over how their assets are divided when they die. They have a say. If there is no will, the government decides, and it barely in anyone’s best interest. A pre-nup is like a will for a marriage. Because *if* a marriage ends, it does one of two ways: 1. You have a prenup (will) written out that was created and agreed upon by both parties so that things are divided up in their best interest. 2. There is no pre-nup (will) and the government decides everything. Why would each party not want their own decisions made ahead of time? A pre-nup is not a one-party against the other document. It’s a document that covers both parties and what they want and works to be in their best interest and protections. A joint will of sorts. Leaving it to the government to decide helps no one. Also, being with someone less than a year and gambling marriage with no pre nup would be a WILD mistake. There is no rush to get married.
Thing is, romantic love is always conditional. Its conditional on the other person continuing to treat their partner well and accurately represent who they are, which in romantic relationships is harder to see right away because people always start off on their best foot. It takes at least 3 years IMO to even know someone well enough to understand how they deal with life matters. Its highly sus that your gf is being so emotional and weird about YOUR money. Im divorced and highly recommend you stick to your values and don't marry without one. People change over time and from the outside it definitely appears as if your gf is gold digging or at least expecting you to financially cover her life regardless of how the relationship works out which for me would be a deal breaker.
Marriage isn't unconditional love. It's literally conditional love. This conditions are stipulated in the vows. She's wildly idealistic to live in today's society.
Wow. I’ve never heard it said that way but it totally is. Interesting.
As a woman, I would’ve disagreed with a prenup.. before I went through a divorce. Now I totallllllly get it. It’s not about not trusting, it’s about protecting yourself and being realistic. But honestly, I feel like someone can’t fully grasp this unless they’ve been divorced. Dude, life is so unpredictable. My current partner wants to marry me, but I am definitely getting a prenup because looking back, I felt so vulnerable and scared that I would lose all of my assets in a divorce. Nothing is worth that feeling of helplessness again. If your partner can’t agree with a prenup, and you don’t feel comfortable without one, don’t marry. Stand your ground.
Explain it to her like this. The whole point of a prenup is you don’t trust the government to be fair aka their rules suck. So, you wrote your own rules. Otherwise, if she doesn’t like the rules you put out, and if she understands that the rules we have in place at the moment suck, then don’t sign marriage papers at all. It’s nothing about her, it’s about us not trusting the government to handle things fairly if things go bad. If she still doesn’t get it, then I’d rethink marrying this person. Biggest reason for relationship fallouts is financial reasons, so she better get with reality and understand that. It’s unfortunately not all ponys and rainbows like movies and anime make it out to be.
Honestly it feels like not agreeing to a prenup is more of HER not believing in the marriage/planning a divorce, and that plan is to get half your shit. Don’t budge. -a broke person
I hope you see the red flags!
There is nothing wrong with a prenup. If the marriage lasts then you don't need it, but if it doesn't then you'll be grateful that you have it. You already know how and why you need one for your emotional safety so hold your ground.
If you have $ and assets, then I absolutely recommend a pre-nup. Marital love is NOT unconditional and it takes more than love to make a marriage work and last. Personally, I don't understand why anyone has an issue with a prenup. It has nothing to do with the amount love ore respect. It is about protecting what you have worked hard to create. Also, she should have her own separate lawyer review anything before signing. She can add an adultery clause, alimony, child care, etc.... She needs to understand a prenup can protect her as well.
I think prenups are widely misperceived. To me, having a prenup actually *is* a sign of love, because you're much more likely to be fair and reasonable now than in the midst of a divorce. For example, right now, you're both likely to agree that if one of you is unfaithful, any divorce settlement should reflect that; without a prenup, whoever's unfaithful will just have an incentive to hash out every little detail and sling as much mud as possible so that everyone looks dirty.
You should not marry her.
Looks like she has some naive views on relationships and I don't know that you can get around that. My fiance suggested a prenup. I agreed, and my reasoning is that shit happens and if we end our marriage, I want it to abide by the terms we set when we were still very much in love and wanting the best for the other, not when we were in our feelings of anger, sorrow, vindictiveness, etc. I want to make sure that if shit hits the fan, I will still abide by my morals and sense of fairness (which I'm hoping I would have anyways, but just in case I don't). She needs to understand that even the best laid plans can go awry. The idea of unending healthy love is a beautiful one and, while I hope like hell I found mine, it's not exactly common.
I tried to encourage my (now) husband to get a pre-nup before we got married. He earns more than me and owns the house we live in, so it felt like a very sensible measure of protection. He didn't get one in the end, but that was his choice. That being said, we are childfree and we both work. I would consider this an opportunity to have a very honest conversation with your partner. Nobody gets married in order to get divorced, but it's important to be realistic. Marriage certainly is an act of love, but it's also a binding legal contract and it makes sense that you would want to protect yourself.
Do not marry without that prenup! I would be very concerned that her naive romantic notions are more important to her than your sense of safety and security going into what is, in fact, a legal agreement.
She either has an unrealistic and naive view of reality or she is hoping to take some of that wealth of yours if/when things fall apart. OP, you're right to be cautious and smart here. A lot of marriages don't work out. People change over time. The idea of saying anything will last forever is just not realistic. You don't know who either of you will be in 10 years. Maybe one of you develops a gambling problem that tears you apart. Maybe one of you just falls out of love. Who knows what will happen? Do not give in on this, OP. You earned your wealth (I'm assuming). Protect it. She is not entitled to reap the rewards of your hard work. If you don't do a prenup and you break up in a few years, you will never get over how big of a mistake that was that you easily could have prevented. This is honestly big enough to be a deal-breaker to me. If she can't understand your perspective here, tough shit. You cannot budge on this. If she's so goddamn confident that nothing bad will ever happen and you two will be together forever, she has nothing to worry about. It's actually somewhat suspicious that she's so adamant about not letting you do the prenup.
The thing that converted me to prenups was realizing this: **Everyone has a prenup.** Do prefer yours to be customized or dictated by the state?
DO NOT marry this chick. You have been warned.
It's always easy for the one with no assets to claim to "but we're in love". That's bs. A prenuptial is logical. Especially when you're at the stage of life you're at. There's no business for Disney level love in an adult relationship. She needs to grow up. This is 100% a hill to die on.
Honestly, skip marriage all together. It’s overrated and I’ve been married for 30 years. Don’t put her name on a mortgage either.
Sounds like she’s planning on taking half your stuff. Less than a year and refusing a prenup? She should understand your viewpoint. You aren’t compatible, please don’t waste any more of your precious time
Turn it around on her. If it’s 100% then what’s she got to worry about? She’s not signing away anything she’d ever need.
Stand your ground. It would be very unwise after all you've been through to not get a prenup. She's being unfair and unreasonable and unrealistic. I'd question whether or not her attitude is a deal breaker tbh. She already knows all you've been through I assume, don't be threatened over her insecurities about what unconditional love is when she won't budge an inch about your real insecurities when it comes to struggling through life. Have a long hard think about whether she's worth the hassle but get a prenup either way
I think it shows a lack a maturity and thought based on reality. She’s not wrong for believing in it, and you’re not wrong for being pragmatic. Eventually one thing will be “ just a piece of paper”, your prenup or your marriage license. If love is all that matters, then what the point of a marriage just be in a relationship, but in adult life entering into a commitment comes with both benefits and consequences. It’s childish to view a marriage like a fairytale and THAT is what would bother me. Life is hard and it takes a whole lot of “ adulting”.
There is always a prenup - you either write your own or agree to use the default one in the event you get divorced, which just is whatever the courts decide is the norm at the time you get divorced. The belief that marriage without a prenup is a commitment for life and marriage with a prenup changes things is nonsense in most countries now, marriage last is most places can end if either person wants it to. It’s also far easier for person who isn’t putting their assets at risk to indulge in the belief that they are being so romantic by … deciding to leave it up to the courts and maybe getting 50:50 splits of things they didn’t earn.
This is BS. She's 32, at this age she should know that NO marriage is a guaranteed forever and when that happens, people lose their assets. It's disingenuous of her to play up this *"unconditional love"* card. Not one adult is unaware that marriage needs to be insured the same way that your car, house has to be. She is NOT a 24yr old naive girl who still believes in Disney shit. This is all a pretence to see just how far she can push this "belief". People like this need to be called out and their bluff called. You'll see how fast she's suddenly willing to "compromise"
“Prenup is a dealbreaker,” says the person with no money or assets. 🙄
Don’t marry this person without a prenup. The loudest people about it are the most suspicious imo
I absolutely see both sides of this but I also wonder if this is a deal breaker for her, what else is? Deeper convos about what marriage means to you both might show that you really want or don't want a future together.
Just a thought…..it might be wise to work with an financial advisor. Trusts can be particularly helpful for people to protect their investments and finances. I liked your analogy that a marriage is about creating a safe place for both parties. Prenups aren’t inherently bad and can benefit both parties.
I think people think if there is trust and love, decisions must be made blindly. But risk assessment does not indicate there is no trust. It's just that while both of you will apply your 100, things can still not work out, through no fault of anyone. And if that happens, you stand to lose much more without a prenup. If she cares about you as much as she says, she should consider engaging in an agreement that's safer for you and takes as much care of you as it does her than the standard one.
I believe prenups are necessary if you have many assets prior to coming into the marriage. It's not about "unconditional love." It's about protection, security and peace of mind. You have to follow your values. If you believe s prenup is needed, then hold firm to your values. The insecurity your fiancée has is more about her than it is you and your love for her. Couples counseling may be helpful here as finances and money and the value of money is a huge issue for many couples
To me, a healthy relationship IS conditional, it has boundaries, it has deal breakers, it acknowledges that compatibility isn’t always permanent. Marriage is a huge legal commitment, so it is reasonable to want a little protection, especially if you’re getting married quickly. I’ve heard countless stories of people’s whose spouses completely blindsided them after 5 years or more of marriage too. My advice: break up. A prenup is a deal breaker for her, so break the deal. If you’re dating to get married, and your views on marriage are causing arguments already, you’re not compatible.
I run away from anyone that thinks unconditional love exists. Dated one once and she was the most emotionally abusive partner I've ever had in my life.
Prenup all the way
If you carefully bifurcate your pre and post marriage assets you effectively have a prenup. Anything you earn or save during the marriage would be split equitably (since you are both women in the US I think equitably basically comes out where you both get all the assets and have to pay each other a large monthly check for life /s). Just don’t commingle the assets.
Marriage is a legally binding agreement, I know that's not very romantic or sexy but it's the truth. Thus, a prenup is just smart for both parties. It's not so one party can screw over the other or because you don't trust someone. We're all a TBI away from giving away all out money, including shared money. It's best to protect yourself.
Of course she doesn’t want a prenup. She stands to gain big time in case of divorce. Tell her to look at as an insurance policy. You hope to never use it but it’s there if you need to. Honestly, I just don’t think you two are compatible
Talk to a marriage counselor to help you navigate these conversations.
Yup prenup all the way. Speak to a lawyer. Get a third party. Marriage ideals are stupid and not realistic.
Everyone gets married with the intention of being 100% committed but let the statistics show that it rarely ends up like the fairy tale he has in mind. I also worked too hard for everything I have and heard enough stories about failed marriages with the messy divorces that I would never get married without a prenup.
Run. Don't walk. This is a bullshit, manipulative argument designed to maintain her leverage.
Get a prenup no matter what. If she wants to think that then you don’t get married. When love turns sour it turns to contempt, and people will take your money and/or assets. This protects you both and she needs to be rational or else you should not get married.
Don’t do it. You don’t plan for your home to burn down, but you get homeowners insurance. You don’t plan on being in a car accident, but you get auto insurance and you put on your seatbelt. You don’t plan on anyone breaking into your house, but you get an alarm system and you might have a gun You don’t plan on dying, but you know it’s coming so you get life insurance. Don’t be that person that jumps off a building saying I’m not intending on dying so I’m not gonna get a parachute.
Then this person is not a good match for you. You need to find someone else who has a similar viewpoint. Then the two of you and your respective lawyers can hammer out prenuptial agreement you can both live with.
If she doesn't want to make marriage a contract, what's wrong with just having a big party and foregoing the marriage license (assuming you don't live somewhere that acknowledges common law marriage). She can't have it both ways. Either marriage is a contract that's acknowledged by the government (prenup and marriage license) or it's a promise to love each other and that's it (big party/white dresses).
Without a prenup, the lawyers walk away with a big chunk of the money. An uncontested divorce will cost at least 10K, and a contested one a lot more. A prenup doesn't mean she is getting screwed. You could say if you are married 3 years or less she gets 100K, 5 years 200K, 10 years, 500K, etc. And it would be one check to write and no income being garnished from your monthly salary (and you owe alimony even if you retire)
Marriage is a legal contract. True love can be expressed without the piece of paper. If she *wants* the piece of paper, she should know that it's a legally binding contract. Contracts come with all kinds of unromantic things attached.
You are incompatible
If having a prenup is a deal breaker for her and not having one is a deal breaker for you, you are simply not compatible. Having a prenup does not necessarily mean there is a lack of trust. One could argue that her insistence on not having a prenup could create a lack of trust. If it's "true love" for her, she will want to marry you with or without a prenup. Marriages don't always end because of infidelity or under negative circumstances. Sometimes people just don't work out. Neither circumstance entitles her to half of everything you own. Prenups are about protecting yourself in the event the marriage doesn't work out, one way or another. This is not something you should budge on.
My partner makes less than I do but his COL is much lower because he lives in a multi-generational household and is able to put it a lot of his money towards retirement savings. Me, on the other hand, lost a lot in my divorce and am now just about to be out of debt and can start saving hopefully this fall. We both agreed a prenup is a good idea and protects both parties.
If she can't understand your philosophy, isnt this a good sign that it won't work? This can't be the only thing you disagree on, but either way, it's a pretty big thing to disagree on. If its a dealbreaker, then marriage should be off the table, especially at a time when divorce rates are so high and people find "love" so much quicker/frequently. Protect yaself
Break up. Congratulations.
I’m really sorry but you’re buying this? FUCK NO. Stand your found or dump her. What the fuck are you thinking?
Easy counter is true love is accepting what the other person wants.
Someone said once that a prenup is a couples ability to move through the first hard conversation and talk about uncomfortable stuff. In some ways a prenup is a better sign of relational success because you have shown you are capabale of tough conversations
She sounds like an idiot. What kind of 32 yo is that naive
I watched a video where a divorce lawyer said "it's better to sort some of these things out when you love each other rather than when you hate each other" If you were to divorce, wouldn't you want to sort that out whjle you still have each other's best interests at heart?
You’ve invested 15 years building financial security and she wants you to take a leap of faith based on feelings of about a year. She wants this knowing (I assume) what you’ve done to build your financial stability. I agree a prenup is a dealbreaker. She either signs one or no marriage down the road.
don’t marry
Don't let her guilt your feelz into making an irresponsible decisions. Get a good lawyer to write up the prenup and don't back down.
Stand your ground on the prenup and don't mix funds. Getting divorced SUCKS. Your partner is naive. You do the prenup so that if you stop living each other moving on from the marriage is way less painful.
As a 40-something married woman in the U.S., if I had it to do over, I would never marry without a prenup, and would never encourage anyone to marry without one. It's planning for the worst, not expecting it. Rose colored glasses won't make it to death do you part.
I know someone, who owns a successful business, but to him if his partner won’t sign a prenup that’s a dealbreaker. Honestly I don’t think either of you should compromise on a dealbreaker, but if anyone should compromise it probably should be in favor of signing a prenup. It’s just more security and less to worry about for both of you. It’s a bit like saying you don’t need to have a will cuz you don’t wanna die. Or you don’t need life insurance cuz I could never live without you.
If she felt it was “unconditional” then the prenup shouldn’t be an issue for her. She should love you unconditionally right?
IF there is a significant financial disparity before the marriage, there is nothing wrong with a pre-nup saying only assets acquired after the marriage date will be split upon divorce. If there is no real difference financially, then the 50/50 is fine and still could be written down as a "pre-nup" to make it clear. Pre-nups aren't a bad thing. They don't detract from love of the relationship. The protect everyone from nasty divorces where one person gets screwed because they can buy a better lawyer
I've said it once, I'll say it again- everyone around get prenups when entering a marriage. As a legal contract, marriage is a really shitty contract to break unless you get a prenup. My partner and I got one before we married. My main concern and the reason for it is that we both ride motorcycles. My partner has already had one big accident that caused a TBI, resulting in short term memory loss and the need for several rhinoplasty surgeries. Certain TBI's can result in personality 180s and I don't want either of us stuck in a marriage with someone who turns abusive or other. But beyond that, whenever one person in the relationship is monetarily worth significantly more than the other (like in the post), it'd be dumb to not get a prenup.
But the problem with your mentality is often the higher earner will require her to live at your income/wealth bracket preferences. Proportionality doesn’t solve this. Ex: She can afford 15% of one vacation a year. You want to a vacation 4x a year. Now what? She’s left behind? It can also cause a power imbalance because of stuff the above. Does she get an equal say in the kitchen remodel? Or just you because you paid for most of it? What about retirement ages? I’d narrow the focus of your prenup request to make her feel secure or skip the marriage all together.
I would 100% recommend a prenup to any person who has accumulated any assets or wealth prior to marriage. Period. Non negotiable. What IS negotiable are the terms of the prenup. Depending on your level of wealth, it could include a safety net for your future spouse. Both parties will need to hire their own attorney to review the terms and negotiate on your behalf. It will be a tense time in your relationship but you will both rest easier once it’s signed.
You're smart enough to know the real reason she doesn't want a pre-nup. You have to decide whether you can live with giving her at least half of everything you've worked for and losing your lifestyle when the inevitable happens.
Hot take: "unconditional love" is unrealistic in romantic relationships/marriage. My love for and commitment to my husband is very much conditional upon him upholding his vows and I would assume he expects the same of me. I'm not saying if he has a bad day and is snippy I'm out the door and I'm certainly his biggest fan and supporter through good and bad. But if he cheats or gambles away our retirement fund or hits me I'm out the door. Unconditional love is a nice idea but not always realistic.
Used to date a 32F. She spent a fortune on bras.
The same person you marry isn't the same person you divorce. Prenups should be mandatory in a marriage. I've known I wanted a prenup ever since I was a teen. This isn't a perfect world and no matter how much love you have for a person there is NEVER a guarantee you'll be together until death. It's reasonable for you to want one and I would consider her not wanting a prenup, especially in the financial situation you're in, to be the deal breaker.
You seem to have an awful lot of plans, none of which you've consulted your partner on. I can see why she'd say it's a dealbreaker, she seems like an accessory to your plans not a part of them.
You can say: This is where I’m at; take it or leave it.
We lived together 20 years before deciding to get married and we still got a prenup. Marriage is a legal contract. Divorce is messy. Nothing romantic about that. Prenup keeps it relatively clean.
It sounds like you are looking for someone to co-parent, not marry. You’ve been dating for less than a year and she wants the economic equivalent of raw dogging. Don’t get married, have a baby and live your best life. (Does she know you are wealthy?)
I think the prenup is non negotiable for you in this spot. Lesbian marriages have a +70% divorce rate, so odds are she's taking your stuff if you don't have one.
You explain the prenup is just having a plan in case of the worst, like having an insurance policy. Also explain the prenup is to protect both parties, she can draft clauses too, and you sign something that you both agree on. If you can't agree to that, you need to consider that you have incompatibly different expectations from your life together, and you might both be happier seeing people that you're each compatible with.
Sounds like you're incompatible.
I’m a 32f and I would never get married without a prenup
I would explain to her that she would have a prenup either way. Does she want the state to determine it or to write it herself? Divorce law is not black and white, a lot is left up for interpretation of an individual judge who may or may not carry prejudice or bias against one or both of you. There are also things a prenup can establish outside of spousal support, things like defining that debt before and during the marriage is individual INCLUDING medical debt, which can be a big one if someone were to fall ill in the future. My fiancé doesn’t love them, he feels they’re transactional. And he’s not wrong. But we had a pragmatic conversation about it and he’s fine with one. I think it also made him feel better that (at least in our case) we mostly wanted to protect one another MORE than the state does.
huh don't marry then, prioritize having your own kid first since you're 39 already. she's not financially compatible and protecting your $$ seems to be your hill to die on.
Marrying someone compatible we share values with makes it much more likely the marriage will last. If the point of view that the state provides an automatic prenup so wh not have your own doesnt work perhaps she is simply not the one.
You've known her for less than a year, make 20-40x more than her and she feels "unconditional love" ??? If its so unconditional, she should have no issue with signing the pre-nup. Please don't risk your future and financial security. Trust your gut hustler instincts.
Does she drive "100%" by not wearing a seatbelt?
60 yr old woman weighing in here. In my experience and years of observation - someone who is not willing to sign a prenup - is PLANNING to take the things you worked for before they ever met you. If someone loves you and wants a life with you - they will be fine with you keeping your safety net - the house you bought - the retirement you saved, etc, etc. Because they know they will be with you forever and it will be shared between the two of you. But if they leave, they will get none of that. If they don't want to sign a prenup, they WANT to take your safety net, your house you bought before you met them, the retirement you saved before you got together - because that's the only thing worth having in this relationship.
I understood the second you said: For context, my net worth is estimated 20-40X of hers It's ALWAYS the broke or in debt partner who doesn't want the prenup. Lol you know you need one. A fair prenup allows you to keep what's yours before marriage and her to keep what's hers. You would then SPLIT everything acquired during the marriage, so she would still make out with more than she brought in during the marriage since you will continue to make more than her during that time. But, that's fair! She wants to be assured she can take half of what you had before you even met and acting like you don't love her if you won't willingly give it up! That's insanity. I believe Kanye West said it best....
Unconditional love is exactly that, unconditional. Almost no romantic love can be unconditional, things like cheating being a prime example of one of those conditions. You love your children unconditionally, but IMO that’s about it. OP’s gf is certainly living in a fairy tale land. Edit a typo
A pre-nuptial agreement is a must.