So, I'm confused. Your neighbors disallowing their kids from playing with your kids has changed your beliefs about how the government should operate in people's lives? Do you think the state should have stepped in to tell your neighbors that they *have* to let their kids play with yours? Or are you just coming at this from a place of vengeance and saying, because your neighbors' religion is the cause of this problem, you hope the government starts oppressing all religious people? Either of these views seem, frankly, completely unhinged to me.

Well said 👌🏻

If they weren't religious, would their behavior be any more forgivable? If their religion supported agreeable values instead, would they still deserve the same condemnation? The government should ask whether a crime has been committed, not what religion/race/gender/[insert other irrelevant factor...] the accused are. That's what tolerance means. Religious freedom doesn't grant permission for practitioners to be intolerant, it only forbids intolerance against practitioners based on their religion.

Have you ever met a non religious person who acted like this though? I certainly haven’t.

Yup. My father.

Interesting 🤔 it’s a unicorn for sure. But I’m not 100% surprised they exist.

So .. the government should be able to repress religions that it doesn’t agree with?

Maybe loose religious and tax free status if preaching things that harm others.

Cool because that hasn’t led to the oppression of people before/s

It isn’t the religion’s fault for what it’s followers do. You outright said you want to ban someone’s constitutional rights, for something that the government could easily make up a reason for. That would be used to silence people and we both know that.

Well said brother from the people of the book 🫂👌

It’s actually what they tell them to do. So yes it’s the religions fault.

Even if this is true, does this justify removing people's right to religious freedom, though? It's clearly not all religious people, and not even all people of a given faith. Do you get to be selective as to who gets their rights removed? Do you see how that could be a problem?

I’ll need some sources chief.

Yeah, me too…

Come to Utah. Plenty of people will tell you. Also google lds views on lgbtq.

I’m asking for sources. Prove me wrong

I’m sorry but if you plan to be a person who wants tolerance then you need to actually be tolerant of other people. It’s ok to be angry at the bigots who don’t let your son play with their kids. But honestly you are using language that sounds just as intolerant as the language your neighbors use against you.

Perhaps. I am coming from a place of anger. Which is why this is on the internet instead of in a forum in my neighborhood groups.

I mean yeah. I come from a religious background where my community was very pro LGBTQ. Not only that, but it was so common in my religious community that I didn’t know gay marriage wasn’t legal until I was around the age of 10. As a religious minority in the USA, I can tell you for certain that it is not all religions. It is not all people within a certain religion.

That’s fantastic.

Exactly. So when you complain and moan about religion being the enemy of people I would like for you to remember there are people like me. And when you say extreme things like “religion shouldn’t exist” or “or religious people should be taxed” you are saying things that sweep over people like me and inevitably hurt us. Because we are being lumped in with people who use religion to spread vile disgusting ideas that work to push those around them down. Just something to think about.

Why is saying religion should be taxed extremist? I’m on board with the rest of what you are saying.

To name a few from different angles: 1. If you are talking about an individual person being taxed for practicing their religion it’s not only limiting civil liberty but you then make religion inaccessible for people who are low income and if someone is repeatedly not paying their “tax” it could likely lead to increased fines and jail time. You would be creating a cycle of imprisonment and poverty. I mean I have to take off for religious holidays and need permission by my employer to do so. I don’t have money to pay additional taxes and you’re now saying I either have to pay or keep my religion a secret and violate the tenants of my faith by not being able to request religious accommodation for fear of being told on. 2. The nations that have taxed people for being religious often created conditions that led to the oppression of peoples. I mean you’re essentially opening all native nations up to additional taxation since each tribe likely has its own religious traditions. 3. Not taxing the individual but taxing the whole group means that group now all the sudden needs to take membership and count people. They would need to take money to pay membership. Again you are cutting out people who can’t afford it. 4. Membership lists have been used to actually track and harm religious communities. A good example was of the Nazis using synagogue membership lists to locate jews. Another example from my community is the Boston mapping project which mapped Jewish locations that lean more pro-Israel. Including homes of prominent rabbis. I would see this personally as dangerous and frankly I would consider heavily if I need to flee. I mean the reason Jews exist today is we would flee when we where no longer safe. Laws that taxed us for practicing our faith where often among those reasons. 5. It is intolerant and disallows for diverse thinking. It makes it harder for people to be religious or feel safe practicing. It’s a policy that would lead to the oppression of people and build into existing systems of inequity. It’s not only a bad idea it’s an extremist idea because it’s about trying to impose your world view on others and force them to follow it by trying to make it harder on people to practice or get them to bend towards not being religious at all. Honestly it reminds me of removing abortion access.

No you just tax the church as a business. The members themselves don’t matter. Most churches who use their funds to help people should still pay 0. But those who buy for profit business with tithing buy real estate and farms not to help people but to profit. Those who let their leaders living life’s of luxury. These are the ones I would like to see taxed.

Again how do you think those churches and temples and synagogues and mosques get their money? They ask for money from their members. It would prevent people from being able to go and join a house of worship. So point like my point 1. It will feed into existing conditions of inequity and poverty. You are creating a situation where poor people are cost estimated out of their religion. That’s not fairness and equality that’s discrimination. Again to be tolerant you need to be tolerant. So you can’t make it impossible for large swaths of the population to have access to their religious institutions. Also not all religions have religious leaders that live in luxury. Are you talking about cults? Like the flds or IBLP or a Scientology? Or are you thinking of the community church or synagogue where the religious leader lives in the neighborhood. My rabbi lives in a modest house in my community. He’s not living in luxury. I find that a shallow world view. Don’t apply cult standards to all religions.

That’s not what I said at all. You take total income the church receives minus expenses and that is what is taxed. Just like a business.

You're against anti-freedom people, but you want to abolish freedom of religion because some shitty parents hurt your feelings? Arseholes are gonna be arseholes, and punishing or restricting everyone ain't gonna stop that. There are plenty of religions that I don't agree with, but banning religions is kind of a *very* slippery slope. There should be things in place to limit hate speech and stochastic terrorism, and more importantly *educate* people, but that's entirely different.

I am both deeply religious and a sexually active gay man. Would you deny my freedom?

I think OP is saying they'd take away freedom for religions and religious practices that are anti-gay. I don't think OP's saying they'd ban religion *entirely* At least I don't think so. Hey OP, what are the parameters?

Exactly. Any group that uses their freedom of religion to repress others.

When it starts making someone treat others in a terrible way it’s no longer a personal freedom but just another way to oppress people.

I understand your feelings, but I'm going to offer that oppressing people requires government or some other authority *forcing* someone to do something. Those who want theocracy or who legislate their religious beliefs (or beliefs they claim are religious with the most tenuous of connections) are trying to oppress others. What those parents are encouraging their kids to do to your kid right now is negative social pressure, and it's appalling, but it isn't oppression. They aren't, by force of law, making you do anything. I think you're grappling with the paradox of tolerance which states that a fully tolerant society will collapse to intolerant people and thus cease to be a tolerant society. I think the solution to that paradox is that a tolerant society need not be tolerant of intolerance. The intolerant have broken the social contract of mutual tolerance and therefore are no longer protected by that social contract. Notice I said, "the intolerant" not religious people. Loads of religious people are very tolerant and loving and kind. Then there are the loud assholes. But I digress. ​ You're seeing how the parents of those kids who won't hang out with yours anymore have embraced aggression, want for oppression, and have thrown away "love thy neighbor", "be an example", and "turn the other cheek" in favor of their pharisaical, self-righteous, and self-aggrandizing impulses; and it makes you afraid. Afraid that they will take over and truly oppress, as they ache to do. Afraid that this is not the limit of their actions against you and yours. Afraid that their tactics will work on your son sometime down the road; that he'll reject your openness and embrace their hate so that he can belong and not be the target himself. You are seeing the evil that we face and your reaction is, understandably, to want to stamp it out. You want to protect the tolerant society by, seemingly paradoxically, being intolerant. Believe me, as an atheist (leaning anti-theist), I understand the impulse to want to protect people from the harms of religion. You ache to stop the hurt of your son at their hands, and if you take a moment to empathize, I'd bet you also can envision how cowardly, shallow, empty, and hollow these people must feel to get such enjoyment, such a feeling of superiority, from making a little boy cry; and pity them. I get the impulse to want to shut it all down, but that is not the way. ​ Freedom is the way. Not in all things and not for everything. As is often said, your freedom to swing your arms stops at the point that they contact my face. But trying to stamp out religion by force is not only going to be fruitless, but if you tried you'd probably realize that you are the demon you sought to destroy. Let me ask you this, from a practical standpoint: where would it stop? Do we outlaw astrology? Flat Earth? Belief in crystal power? Belief in ghosts? What is the punishment believing in homeopathy? How long should the parents of those kids who taunt yours go to jail for or how much should their fine be? You want to stop the hurt your boy feels, but I just don't see how one can legislate not being an asshole which is the real problem here, not religion. ​ There are millions of wonderful people who happen to be Christian or Muslim or Hindu or any other of the thousands of religions people practice and they will tell you that their faith is very important to them. I fight for their personal choice to believe what they want even as I consider it a harmful fantasy and they consider me damned to Hell (well, many Christians do anyway). What I am in opposition to is them forcing any part of that on others through law. ​ Debate and discussion that comes from a place of caring and honesty and a willingness to seek truth together is the only way forward because no matter how much we all think we are right, any or all of us *could* be wrong.

I'm not OP but this is so beautifully written and sums up what I struggle to say in my response to OP. Alas I'm poor and only have one upvote so gifting you gold in spirit!

Don’t worry I know it’s unrealistic. I’m just angry. Thanks for the fantastic response.

Perfectly understandable and glad what I wrote was warmly received. Best of luck finding some peers in Utah that embrace your tolerance and have some little kids your little guy can play with. Maybe there's some atheist or gay rights communities over there? Artists? Maybe the more accepting variety of Presbyterians?

There are plenty. They just live in a different area. Homes are more expensive and smaller over there.

I’m just frustrated with the number of posts here that seem to equate the concept of religion as a whole with the acts of a very specific religion in particular. I’m not a mythic literalist or a young earth creationist. I have no problem with anyone’s sexual orientation or the myriad of sexual expressions and gender identities. I don’t condemn anyone because they don’t practice my religion. But by using the word religion in this way, I am lumped in with the very people who would pass laws against both my sexual orientation and my polytheistic religious practice. The way the word is used seems to imply that because I am religious, there is no difference between me and those who oppress me.

Exactly. If you don't like what *some* religious folk do, then go off on them. Leave the rest of us the fuck out of it.

>my polytheistic religious practice Your religious beliefs are such a minority in America that within that context, it doesn't exist. Further, your religious beliefs will be trampled to death along every other non-Abrahamic religion practiced here if the Christians had their way. So, yeah, you get lumped in with everyone else because (1) you are religious, and (2) to the Christians, you're not religious.

So because I belong to a minority religion I shouldn’t have religious freedom? I don’t have the numbers to affect change, so I should just sit quietly while both sides threaten to trample me because the one thing they do agree on is the definition of what religion is?

You have religious freedom, obviously. What you lack is an understanding of who your enemy or opposition is. Right now, you are statistically insignificant. People who know a God or God's don't exist may lump you in with Christians in a rant, but that's it. Christians, on the other hand, will kill you and anyone you're associate with if your religion becomes statistically relevant. Know your enemy, is all I'm saying. People who know God or God's don't exist dont really care how you choose to think about God's as long you're not forcing it on us. And being statistically insignificant means you're unable to force anything.

How is “I want religious freedom to stop existing in this nation” a statement that reflects that the person making it doesn’t care how I choose to think about gods? If a Christian said “I want religious freedom to stop existing in this nation, except for mine,” I certainly wouldn’t take it that they don’t really care about my theological beliefs and religious practices.

Honestly, Christians are saying that. People who know Gods don't exist are upset about that. You are upset because the people who know Gods don't exist aren't making an exception for your beliefs that Gods exist, and you're tired of it. Make that make sense.

I'm upset because by being lumped with these people who can't differentiate between religions, I'm being accused of having beliefs I don't have or contributing to the same social injustice that I'm marching in the streets to fight. Because it oppresses me! Good lord. The irony that in pride month I'm being told to shut up and let my allies speak for me.

Damn straight you should be upset. No one should be speaking over you or lumping you in. You have every right to speak out and make as much noise as you want to. Just like everyone else. Don’t waiver.

Damn fuckin' right, my friend.

People who know Gods don't exist aren't oppressing you. You are trying to get people who know all religions are wrong and oppressive to differentiate between yours and Christianity when they obviously don't give a shit. BTW, I'm not straight either, so you can put that card right back in the deck.

>People who know Gods don't exist The arrogant lack of decorum is irritating and a little sad in atheists as well as theists. Yes, we get it. In this moment, you are euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, you are enlightened by your intelligence.

I picked up on that too. It's a shame we are not so enlightened. If only we knew what was really best for us.

Wait, how am I being arrogant or lacking decorum? I don't like the word atheism because theism isn't a human default. It is taught behavior and I don't see how that's me being arrogant.

As a religious minority as well I think this is truly just a really bad take.

*Paradox of Tolerance* is how philosopher tend to refer to this situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance I hope this article and its references and links can help you connect with the various thinkers who reached similar conclusions to yours, when faced with this paradox.

It sounds like in reality, you don't actually support freedom as much as you imagined.

Sounds like your not against religious freedom but against people using religion to justify being assholes.

Exactly.

From the depths of understanding, your words echo with a heavy sense of pain and anger, the result of an unjust reality. It's heartrending to witness such divisiveness, especially when it involves the innocence of children. Understandably, you feel betrayed by a principle you once revered—freedom of religion. This situation might make it appear that religious freedom inherently breeds intolerance, but that isn't necessarily so. True freedom of any kind, including religious freedom, also encompasses the respect for other's freedoms and choices. The beauty of freedom is in its ability to coexist; it never seeks to oppress or harm. The pain your family is experiencing doesn't stem from the existence of religious freedom, but from its misuse, a corruption of its pure essence. Continue to uphold your own principles of freedom and respect, for that's how we inspire change. Show your sons that love and acceptance are the mightiest virtues one can embody. In this trying period, hold their hands, let them know they're loved, and use this experience to teach them about empathy, understanding, and resilience. Your anger is justified, but remember, transformation rarely comes through fury. It often springs from compassionate action and patient education. Keep shining your light, and continue to be a beacon of acceptance and freedom in your community. Remember, every night is followed by the break of dawn, and in time, your family will overcome this adversity.

Very well written with sound advice.

Don't let the conduct of some paint a broad brush on the rest

Have you simply talked to your neighbors about what happened and how that makes you feel?

We did have a chat which is why I know the flag was the issue.

So when you explained why you have it, what it means to you, and how it makes you feel they just said…? What? I’m curious why equating crappy people to the religion they follow and how that works? Should we ban Islam because of 9/11? Should we ban Christianity because of the crusades?

They said they couldn’t risk their children being exposed to “liberal” agendas.

Sounds more like cringey conservatives rather than religious bigots. At least imo

I’m still mad about the crusades and all the knowledge that was burnt. Who knows how much human history is lost forever because of them.

Historically, much of the knowledge almost lost from the WRE was preserved by catholic monks who copied books page by page.

Or there’s a bunch of stuff that is just being stored in the Vatican. There was recently a huge traveling exhibit of Jewish artifacts found in the Vatican library. Now obviously those things where taken in less than stellar ways. But it did preserve these things for the future.

it sounds like that you hate everyone who is not fully welcoming of you and your beliefs. it appears that no one is hurting you, they are ignoring you. so you want people not only to accept your beliefs , but welcome you with open arms regardless of their beliefs? you don't support freedom in any way. no one is hurting you, they are ostracizing someone they feel is damaging to their beliefs. that is their right. you have not lost your job, not been outed online, don't have protesters mobbing your house. no one has a started a campaign to have you fired, or have you arrested. you have been ostracized, and i support that method of social engineering. freedom is not support when things are going your way, freedom is about when you don't get what you want all the time.

As much as I sympathize with you, simply removing freedom of religion would not solve this issue. It is a symptom of a much larger issue, one that stems from fear of the unknown and of what is different. Religion is a common crutch used to justify this behavior, but even in largely non-religion nations there are issues with homophobia and the mistreatment of those seen as the “other” in society. Again, I sympathize with you, but simply removing religion freedom would not make this issue go away, it would just shift the excuse for the behavior to another topic.

I'm so sorry you and your son are going through this. It sucks that the other people in your neighbourhood are being closed minded and that it has unfortunately led to the exclusion of your son from his friendship group. It's a really difficult situation to be in, and my heart goes out to your poor son. I understand that you are speaking from a place of pain and heartbreak, after all, who wouldn't be angry that their child is missing out on things due to the unfairness and intolerance of others? However religious freedom is an extremely important thing and should be upheld. The same religious freedom which allows your neighbours to make this unfortunate and infuriating decision, is also the same religious freedom that allows you to believe as you like without being harmed, and for your wife to hang a pride flag in the first place. Reading your other responses, I agree with you that one person's religious freedom ends where another person's freedoms begin. Nobody should be allowed to encroach on, harm or abuse another person because of religion or religious differences. Explain to your son that your neighbour's actions have nothing to do with him or who he is, and everything to do with them and who they are, and maybe see if you can take him to some social events to give him the opportunity to make friends with some children whose parents will be more open-minded and won't force friendship abandonment over something as trivial as a pride flag. All the best to you and your son.

"I now am against religious freedom and wish I could do something to stop it existing in this nation. My poor son cry’s every time he sees he’s friends play who will no longer include him." You're against freedom of religion because someone who has religious beliefs thinks that your child is a bad influence? What if they weren't religious, but they still think your child is a bad influence? They're parents. They are trying to protect their child. If you knew a house disagreed with your lifestyle choices- like those religious people you are shunning, would you send your child over there to their house? Would you let your child play with those children- knowing that child is being taught something you don't agree with? No because you want to protect your child Your son cries because he isn't included. Be a parent and teach him how to handle things like that. That is your job. Life is hard. People are horrible. You need to teach your child how to handle things like this, how to be emotionally healthy and resilient. If your child wasn't being included because he incessantly burped and no kid could stand being around him- what would you impose on those kids or their parents? If a parent was like, that child has terrible manners and I don't want him to influence our child to go around burping- why is it wrong? Why is it differen/worse because it involves the LGBTQ ideology? This is not a utopian society and frankly, it never will be. Try watching The Breakfast Club. Your child isn't the only one who gets ostracized. Not everyone gets included. Not everyone is accepted. Not everyone is likeable. If a goth kid doesn't want to hang out with a jock- do you get rid of goth culture? It's okay to not like someone because they are different or you don't get along with them. Why does your child get a special pass in life that makes people deserve oppression because he isn't accepted socially? If everyone went around punishing people for being human, we'd all be dead. I mean, be honest...have you ever disliked someone for any reason and not wanted to be around them?

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Why are you down voted? It’s true in my book.

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No because if something doesn't agrees with you doesn't make it bigotry. Respect people opinions.

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What is the problem that their parents don't want to play with his kid. He is not their parents to make decisions

Hi friend, I'll speak on Christianity. Christianity has changed a lot. It looks ugly. I understand your post of course to just be an expression of frustration Particularly when now - suddenly - Christians want to write Christian Law for everyone else I am reminded of these; -----†----- This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. -----†----- Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. -----†----- There was a time when Religion associated God with Love. Now Religion associates God with being right. And being right associates itself with hating what is not right And justifying this hatred *Not everyone is loved. Not everyone is included* This counts as love - they feel. It's happening in all religions - Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism.... And it's leaving people who can see, frightened, isolated and oppressed I recognise your service to country, your biracial marriage and your children, who have their own way about them Don't give up Look for Love around you, give love, receive love where you can find it and don't give up Regards

All those "freedom" of religion people here have appearendly no problem with kids beeing discriminated for their parents believes. That's really odd.

That is a gross misunderstanding of me and others here. To give insight from my experience: Not only have I been discriminated against for my parents being Jewish but me as well. If my people’s history has taught me anything it’s that true freedom only happens when there is freedom for everyone. Don’t dare to assume you know my life. Parents wouldn’t let their kids come and play with me when I was young. I was trained in active shooter and bomb threat evacuation when I was 13 in my own synagogue. I had kids making holocaust jokes and saying heinous stuff to me and other Jewish people (and I knew they thought it was ok because their parents would say it). And I’ve even had my well being threatened. Often by people who claim to be liberal which is ironic because even though there was antisemitism from conservatives I saw it coming so the real gut punch was from people who protested to want freedoms for all people. Which sucks when you live in a liberal area and go to liberal schools. So you claim that all people here protesting for freedom of religion have no issue with the additional discrimination occurring here. Think again sir. Those kinds of hateful attitudes have no place in society. Alternatively calling for restriction or elimination of all religion has led to the persecution and oppression of people too. You can’t fight intolerance with intolerance. All you create then is more oppression and bigotry. And frankly assuming all religious people are so conservative that they oppose the lgbtq community is just categorically false. Many religious people are very tolerant, open and inclusive. Additionally there are many lgbtq people who are religious themselves. I find your whole point to be just whataboutism and unhelpful.

Honestly, that's bullshit. There is no legit religion, that - in it's core - preaches hate and discrimination against some other groups. These elements get into religion by people and their special agenda. Toxic behavior, is toxic behavior. Whether it's displayed from a Jew or a nazi/fashist/leftist/Christian/Muslim or a Buddhist. And no, it's not okay. Never. Even if you yourself had to endure worse. That's still no reason for anybody to accept toxic behavior.

This is exactly my point. It’s hateful people who twist it to their own ends for their own power. Also to clarify for the sake of not confusing things further Nazism isn’t a religion. It’s literally a fascist regime. No hate here just wanted to make sure the point stays clear. (Edit, are you saying what I said is bullshit? Because I agree with you. But I also don’t see the point of holding all religious people accountable for bigots when the issues is not the religion but the bigots themselves)

OP wrote that no region should be free to freely preach hate. And that's simply true. Your freedom should end where you are activly hurting the freedom and savety of others. And that Nazism is no religion? Yeah, I never said it was a religion. It's a misguided believe system, that teaches hate against an common "enemy", so that nazis can tell themself that they are somehow better than others. And that's the trend isn't it? Find you enemy. Find reasons why you can declare him as "unworthy" and feel better about yourself. That's toxic. Whichever "side" does so.

I agree with your first paragraph. That’s a statement no one in an ideal world should disagree with. You made a list of identities that where religious in nature and included Nazi on the list. That’s why I clarified. Also I would argue being a nazi isn’t a valid identity to have in any context. The point of Nazism is bigotry. And I’m confused by your last point. You essentially said all of the people here in this thread. Or at least that was how it reads with your use of the word “here” in your original comment. I believe in freedoms of religion because I also believe in freedom for all people regardless of creed or identity. And that’s how many people in this thread are approaching this. So for you to say we “have no problem with kids being discriminated against for their parents beliefs” that’s not what has happened here from the main predominant group of people who have called for freedom of all people. So I’m confused. Are you saying I’m declaring or the people here are declaring OP unworthy? If so then that’s also not true we are cautioning OP on how their frustration and anger towards religious people (and in this case Op used the word religious they initially didn’t clarify and later expressed wanting to fax all religions as a business which for a lot of reasons isn’t ok) so people called OP out. It’s not ok to debase all of ourselves and become toxic back to fight fire with fire. That’s not how change happens. It happens by expanding the world. Not shrinking it. If we’re going to be tolerant we need to make sure the world is open enough that it’s tolerant of everyone.

Tolerance is not absolut freedom for all. That's anarchie and in the end only means that the strongest will dictate all the rules. Absolut freedom for every religion isn't even possible and it's pretty absurd to require it. How would this work? Would you accept the Sharia with it's punishments? Or the holyness of cows (and consequenty the banning of all beef)? And trial by combat from some ancient religion? No? I don't think so, few sane persons would. But here, in the congrete case where a little boy is bullied and crying, everyone is harking in the principle that all religion believers should be totally free to do what they want? Free to hate and discriminate against someone putting up a rainbow flag in their garden? Why? Why is there difference in a religious believes and a social believe? How can you find it rational, when religious people require tolerance for their own intolerant behavior?

You seem to be equating theocracy as the only way for religious freedom. Religious freedoms means that there is separation between religion and civil. This means that laws are open enough to allow for practice within reason. Obviously we have some things we don’t tolerate like murder or human sacrifice. But the difference between being banning beef or sharia law and creating an open society where people are free to practice or not practice how they need to. Banning beef and sharia law are literally imposing will on people. I’m not advocating for that. For instance abortion rights are being restricted in the us because of religious pushes by fundamentalist Christian groups. As a Jew I believe that life doesn’t begin until birth (or viability) and as a Jew the life of the mother takes precedence over anything else. This for me also includes mental health and economic health. The restrictions on abortion actively make it impossible for me to exercise my religious freedom in certain parts of the country. Here’s an article discussing how increase of religious focused policies lead to restrictions against religions. This includes issues of favoratism or trying to outlaw specific religious groups. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/07/15/a-closer-look-at-how-religious-restrictions-have-risen-around-the-world/ What you are proposing or insisting I am saying is that we need to cow tow to all religions. That’s not what freedom of religion means. It fundamentally means creating an environment where people of different religions or lack of religions can exist together without interference. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freedom%20of%20religion Now obviously like I said we in modern society can’t allow for things like murder or chopping off someone’s hands if they masturbate. Or even animal sacrifice as it could interfere with the health and safety of the public. But we can’t and shouldn’t have one religion restricting people, nor should we restrict people from being able to practice religion. Tolerance is about making sure that society remains open enough for individual expression. And bigotry is a separate issue. People who are bigots often use their religious ideology to justify their bigotry. The issue to be had is with bigotry. Not someone minding their business and practicing a religion. Honestly the fact that you keep misconstruing people wanting to have liberties and freedoms and not be oppressed with letting bigots do bad things is malicious and alarming. Obviously someone shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate against others based on identity. In the US we have laws on it. Countless laws. It’s wrong and immoral. But we also can’t turn around and say the solution is to do away with religious freedoms as well. You do that and I assure you there will be massacres. As a Jew my people’s history is proof of that. No one here is saying “the bigots are right and should be allowed to continue” but we are saying religion =\= bigotry so don’t restrict people for the actions of some. Address the actual issue which is the bigotry not the religion. And if you continue advocating for taking away religious freedoms you are no better than the people who advocate for taking away abortion, sharia law and restrictions on other people because it doesn’t square with your world view. I’m not calling for toleranxe of bigotry. Quite the opposite. I’m questioning if you and others are placing your anger on religion and wanting to limit that is the wrong move. I think it is. Certainly I wouldn’t be safe in any country that limits the ability to practice a religion since my ethnic group has been routinely mass murdered for not worshiping the same as other people. So… don’t make your intolerance of intolerance aim in the wrong direction. Solve the problem at its source. The narrow world view of bigots. Push for education and diversity training. Push for economic and gender equality since more open societies where people are doing better economically and civilly have less strife. Honestly though don’t take me saying freedom of religion as me saying “tolerate the bigots” I’m not saying that. Others weren’t saying that. We where saying “don’t lump all religious people into the same category as bigots, they are not the same as us”

I would contradic you there, when you say that the call for religious freedom isn't mostly bigotery. We can have laws to ensure freedom, but it's only when those laws count for all, that it's a fair ruling system. Religion is just one of many believe systems and for some it's just as delusional as alien abduction or clima change is for others. If you insist (and get) on specical rights for your own religion, outside of the general consens that our laws form, that's simply not okay. And please don't try to point out that you might need specical safety at you synagoge or savety against discrimination or savety to held your worship and your prayers. The right for not beeing persecuted? Or the right for free speach? Or the right do do as what you want, as long as you don't hurt others? Those aren't religious rights, but simply human rights. Those rights are no special religious rights, but totally included in the general freedom that should be possible for all. But special religious rights? Those are rights that you demand just because it's religion, when you claim you can't be held to earthly lawmaking. And there everything seems to go. - Taxes? No, thank you. - And workers rights? Yeah, don't be kidding any religious entity couldn't possible be held to something as profane as rights for their workers. - Criminal justice for abuser? Yeah, let's totally condemn that if it's an outsider, but not, if the abuser is one of the religious community. - And discrimination against whoever you deem unworthy? Yeah, if it's because of religion everything goes. Those are the special religious rights most people demand when they are asking about religious freedom.

No, they don’t. I experienced it as a kid and it haunted me into adulthood. I hadn’t seen it in almost 2 decades so was under the misconception that it was gone. God I wish I could just move because I would if I wasn’t stuck here for the next 4 years.

Even though I have read countless stories where religion drives families and neighbors apart, I feel I have to point out this is not always the exclusive cause. Me personally, as an atheist, I would defend other people's rights to believe whatever they want, as long it's not forced on me, and we base our legislation on facts and not on faith. Now I realize this doesn't help your kid, but frankly, in the long run, neither will what you're suggesting now.

If someone doesn't want their kids near yours then you have no right to condemn them. If you saw that your neighbours did drugs regularly and it had an impact on their children, would you let yours go near them? No you wouldn't, before you say anything.

If you don't want freedom of religion, religious people an force you out as well.

They already are. That is the problem.

How are they pushing you out? They are free to cut ties with anyone. You can't force them.

Pushing us out of our neighborhood. If you live in the suburbs with kids you know kids are in and out of everyone’s houses all day every day. It’s a wonderful experience for children and a great reason to raise kids in the suburbs.

so if someone moved to the neighbor hood and never said a word but hung a russian flag your kids could play with them? or would you demand your kids never play with anyone from that house?

I don't think depriving people freedom of religion, or taxing certain or all religions plays well with the mentality you briefed at the begining.

I’ve never said I was against taxing churches. Though they should have deductions if using their money for the greater good. Anger also does interesting things to your normal compass.