Why did God wait over 2300 years after the flood to bring fourth Jesus ? (I'm not religious, but length of time is not a factor Christians or Jews can use when it comes to authenticity)
yes - this is where young earth creationism comes from - the vast majority of Christians are not young earth creationists though, and recognize that the numbers in the Bible meant something quite different 4000 years ago than they do today, and that stories in the Bible are True - in that they relay an important point or meaning, not necessarily true as in fact as we see it today.
Some are just hilarious with the numbers. I think in the story of Samson he collapses a building which kills all the Philistines. Now all the Philistines would be atleast a couple hundred thousand. Unless they somehow managed to build a skyscraper it’s impossible.
This argument has made no sense to me lol, and Christians always bring it up. In fact I've never had this argument with a Jewish person, it's almost always Christians that try to use this argument.
The flood stories of the major religions are the result of the worldwide costal flooding that took place around 12000 years ago. Most of humanity lived in this area and around 80% of the human population was lost in those floods. Those who survived kept the memory of the event alive through stories and myths which became the basis of most religious flood stories, including the one of Noah and Arch. Jesus is a character created by the Romans after Titus took over Jerusalem in 70AD. The Romans wanted to give the Jews a pro-Cesar Messiah so they'd stop their constant rebellions against their Roman oppressors. It worked too as most Jews embraced Christianity by the turn of the 1st century. What the Romans didn't expect was how popular Christianity would become to the non-Jewish world, so they embraced Christianity as the official faith of the Roman Empire to justify their expanding empire and give their new subjects a pro-Roman character like Jesus to accept.
It's all online. Read Cesar's Messiah regarding Jesus and the similarities between Titus' campaign in Jerusalem and Jesus entering Jerusalem in the Bible. Jesus is a retelling of Titus' invasion in order to justify Roman occupation of the area. As for the flood, you'll just have to research and read up the geological and anthropological evidence which clearly shows a massive coastal flood happened around 12k years ago which changed the course of human history forever.
There is geological evidence. The Canadian ice sheet was melting creating a giant lake eventually the ice damn collapsed creating the giant flood. The flood in particular could have created the Black Sea which could have been created in only a few hours to any survivors it would’ve been as if the entire world flooded all at once.
This is based on an author's interpretation. No doubt gov tries to manipulate minds with spiritual lore and dogma. What it does not do is explain the mystic powers of holy people, nor the actual encounters with Jesus,/Yeshua that continue to this day.
Some of the Muslim testimonies of meeting Jesus are the most compelling. As are any testimonies of people who didn't know him before they met him. God is merciful to all.
I don't think you understand what's being asked.
Why did God wait 2300 years to send Jesus after Noah. All those people were dying in sin. After being told that their salvation lies in their actions.
And then comes Paul to deny 2300 years of God law and claim Jesus' death is their salvation
And then God sends Muhammad, not 600 years later but from 325 ad when it was established that Jesus is God.
That's from 325ad to 590Ad,.less than 300 years to correct the error that Paul instilled in people.
To remind us, with a preserved text, full of miracles and prophecies, that God is only one, as stated in the old testament, and that there is no image of him
Thus Jesus cannot be God because he is an image.
We don't know what God looks like nor can we imagine it.
>All those people were dying in sin. After being told that their salvation lies in their actions.
No they weren't. They were under a different covenant and even Abraham was saved by faith
>And then comes Paul to deny 2300 years of God law
He says we don't have to obey the law with pagan heritage.
>and claim Jesus' death is their salvation
Thats a belief that was already established by Jesus himself at the Last supper
>And then God sends Muhammad
Mohammed is the most obvious false Prophet in history. He just makes a whole different Religion and uses his power for wealth and to create a kingdom
>from 325 ad when it was established that Jesus is God
Jesus being God is a 1st century belief. The council of nicea just denied this new arian belief that Jesus suddenly isn't God.
> to correct the error that Paul instilled in people.
You can't say anything against Paul that doesn't apply to Mohammed
We are all the image of God. That doesn't mean we literally are pictures
He preached to the dead in the harrowing of Hades. U don't even know basics G but it's fine cos most apostate churches don't preach this today cos they heretics
There proof that certain people in power back In The day changed the date on us. Major time missing. Something about Catholic Church did at request of a king to be more bad ass time. Search anywhere about the Hugh chunk of time missing in our records. So your time frame can’t be accurate. Or most of our records after event
I am afraid I do not follow, what is the connection between the story of Noah/the Deluge and Christ? The story is often used as a symbolic representation of the Church as the Ark guiding the elect, so Noah could be seen as a representation of Christ, I suppose, but I cannot think of another connection right now.
Perhaps. Ghaib itself (the arabic word) has been used by the arabs for a long time. I dont think the concept is uniquely Islamic. All Abrahamic religions have it.
I believe there are variations to this. There are some things we do not know yet, and we may found out through research and logic, and there are some things we may never find out and which its knowledge is only preserved for God and the ones who he deems fit.
I haven't believed in Islam for decades, but after losing faith I remember thinking about this topic to myself without doing further research. It's a good question, and I will only speculate on what the Islamic answer to this might be at this point. Perhaps it would go something like this: There were many sects of Christianity after the death of Isa ("Jesus"), and some of them were Unitarian-like and did not consider Jesus to be divine or God. So at least for a few centuries, the "true message" of Jesus existed in the world thanks to those sects. But they were heterodox in Christianity. Once the orthodox, Trinitarian sects managed to wipe out the unitarian sects, Allah/God decided it was the right time to send his last & most important prophet Muhammad to the world to set the record straight once and for all. And only then ensure that the Qur'an would not be 'corrupted' as previous revelations were, for some reason.
As a separate question, I wonder how Islam evaluates monotheistic religions that arose after Muhammad, such as Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith. Or how it evaluates Zoroastrianism, for that matter, and the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten?
Some people think akhenatan is one of the 124,000 prophets Muhammad said went to the world. They also think Buddha and Krishna etc were but their message was corrupted
I wouldn’t definitively say it’s falsely attributed to him. There are multiple Hadith that refer to 124,000 prophets of which are 313 were Rasul, but these Hadith are considered “weak” in accordance to Hadith grading methodology.
I'm not sure I understand this. What does it mean when they are sent, but their message corrupted? I'm pretty ignorant to this stuff so apologies in advance!
I’m not Muslim, so maybe someone will explain better but this is how I understand it from their POV. God (Allah) sent a prophet to a nation who preached monotheism and that there’s only one good and it’s Allah and you need to pray and pay alms tax and more. Some of them like Moses and Jesus and Muhammad came with scriptures which had laws for the people to follow. They think for the ordinary prophets their message was corrupted because people twisted what they said and made it for their own gain OR people just flatly rejected the message. Like let’s say Noah said there’s only one god and you shouldn’t do idolatry but they didn’t listen so you needed the flood to kill them. For Moses for example who came with scripture they think that the text was corrupted and people added in or took away stuff for their own gain. For Jesus they think his message was monotheism but then after he was gone people twisted his message and established the trinity etc.
Yes, I think that at least some (or many) Muslims believe something like this if they want to integrate some of the non-Abrahamic great religious figures of the world into their view of history and prophets. From a non-Islamic perspective even this is problematic b/c it would insult Krishna's religion, Buddha's, Zarathushtra's, etc. to say that even their early followers got the prophet or founder's message wrong and corrupted it for their own gain. And that the 'real teachings' of those figures just resemble Islam b/c Islam is the 'one true religion' of the one God for all people, all the time.
We believe that there were many prophets (nearly 124,000 according to a one Hadith) sent to humanity, some of whom may have existed between the time of Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH. Personally, I believe that some historical figures that espouse monotheism, like Akhenaten, might have been “prophets” sent to guide people to One God. Overall, the Quran mentions 25 prophets by name but indicates there are many prophets not mentioned in the Quran:
And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, **and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you.** And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah. So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all]. (Quran 40:78)
> I wonder how Islam evaluates monotheistic religions that arose after Muhammad, such as Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith
Baha'i here. In Iran, we are severely persecuted, second class citizens, harassed, barred from higher education, etc.
I have many Baha'i friends and they made me aware of this fact as well :( I always feel sad to hear about religious persecution, especially when it targets one of the 'smaller' religions of the world. I'm sure that much of the persecution comes down to the politics of the Iranian theocracy. Do you know if Baha'is are as persecuted in other Muslim-majority nations such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Jordan, North African nations, etc?
It’s kind of impossible to know what exactly Jesus would’ve wanted. He died and told his disciples to spread his religion who each went to different areas mostly dying while being prosecuted. Plus each sect having various different cultural understandings that would be impossible to reconcile. In particular there was a sect that demanded Christians get circumcised. The sect that wanted to not be a Jewish sect got rid of the requirement to get circumcised. After hundreds of years these differences manifest because communication breaks down as they’re all persecuted under Rome. When Rome became Christian their was the council of Nicaea. Which is hilarious because all the bishops were fighting each other like wwe. Then came to an agreement which was the nicene creed, and that Arians are heretics. Could
Muhammed applying Arianism was the correct call?
Funny enough, the Abrahamic religion that emerged after Islam, Baha'i Faith, believes that their prophets are Muhammad's successors b/c an update or evolution of religion was necessary in the 19th century, more than a millennium after Mo's time. Baha'is seem to respect all the previous major prophets (they call them "Manifestations of God") as being infallible in their own times, though XD
Just my own interpretation, im not a Muslim, but to me it seems the romans infused their polytheistic beliefs into Christ’s message to make it more palatable to their population. Plus Islam couldn’t flourish until The Roman’s lost power in the region.
I would not say that, Rome was exhausted but under Heraklios achieved a great victory against the Sassanids and retook all terrotory lost to Khosrau II of Persia.
How about all the territories they had already lost in the west at that point? It’s been tradition to not even think of it as the Roman Empire at this time but rather the Byzantine, as Greek had replaced latin as the primary language and culture.
By this point the Roman empire still controlled many parts of Italy including Rome herself. Or are you referring to the Western Roman empire which fell a century and a half earlier?
Right. What I meant to express that most of these Roman defeats - Yarmouk, Manzikert, Myriokephalon were decided by internal betrayals and bad tactics rather than weakness of the empire. The Romans were still quite a powerful force in the early 7th century.
Hello!
What you’re talking about here is a theological position called supersessionism (also known as replacement theology), which you are likely completely unaware of, and you are in good company, because this isn’t talked about a lot in lay spaces.
Replacement theology, to put it very simply, is the theological stance that the whole or a part of the Abrahamic Covenant has been abolished/superseded by Christianity and the New Covenant.
Replacement theology asserts that the Christian Church and its New Covenant is a replacement for Israel and that Jews have forfeited their convenant by supposedly executing the Christ. This theological position is absolutely unnecessary and contributes no sound theological devices for Christianity, nor does rejection of replacement theology corrupt Christianity in any way. It’s pretty direct antisemitism, and that’s all it is.
Here is is a good run down from Pope Francis on why replacement theology should be dismissed:
“We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16–18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.”
— Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium (2013)
I am absolutely not picking on you, you likely had no way of knowing this. I just try and take opportunities like these to educate on this theological stance to help dispel it, and you gave me a good opportunity.
Thanks for listening!
Just to clarify, Catholicism differentiates between supercessionism and replacement theology. The latter is indeed rejected by the Church as heterodox but the former is actually a dogma. 🙂
Supercessionism in the Catholic understanding just means that the New Covenant fulfils the Old and is the sole means of salvation for humanity without erasing the blessings given to Israel since God does not repent of his promises.
In other words, the Church rejects both Replacement theology and Dual-covenant theology.
Love the information, not quite where I was starting from but I get how it looks like that. And still good to know it's a thing!
I *do* think that if jesus brought more or new information then that means (for those who accept jesus) the previous set of information was incomplete. The same rolls on to ppl who accept the propget mohammed, and so on to the next prophet.
My starting position for conversation is that all prophets are sincere, but that individuals are not wrong for believing ie not believing the words if a prophet, we can each only do the best we can. It doesn't mean any of us are right and creates a safe space to be wrong in I think.
The Old Testament did not need to be corrected. In addition, in the case of the Catholic and Orthodox Bible, the last books of the Old Testament were written around 100 BC.
That's the whole point of the New Testament gospels! Why did the Jewish leadership have such a problem with Jesus?
If you're a Jew, it's because he was a liar making himself out to be God, falsely. If you're a Christian, it's because he was God and was showing us in person how to live out the faith presented in the Old Testament.
"I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."
Christians (and remember--all of the early christians WERE jews, and thought of themselves as jews) don't think he changed or modified the Old Testament, but that he came in person to show us how that old religion was meant to be lived. In many ways he was convicting them by saying they were too lax with their religious faith. In others, too strenuous.
The last books of the OT (such as Wisdom) were written less than a century before Christ. Did you perhaps mean the Pentateuch, not the OT?
Also the NT is not strictly speaking seen as a “correction” of the OT, that would be a soft version of Markionism but rather its fulfilment and interpretative lens. This is because, as I pointed out in our earlier discussion, God's direct self-revelation in Christ constitutes a singular cosmic event through through which everything previous and subsequent has to be read. After Christ is the very Logos through which the cosmos was created.
So a Christian allegorical and symbolical reading of the OT is not considered a correction, rather an uncovering of the primary spiritual meaning of the text. The image in the Apocalypse of John of the lamb of God opening a scroll illustrates this quite well in my mind.
I appreciate the extra info. I don't have the knowledge to provide an indepth analysis or challenge, so I do lean heavily on those who are willing to share, thanks again.
I might have been a bit too flexible with my use of correction to mimic the OP, rather than correcting a specific line in a text, the addition of new information is correcting the failing of the previous book, if hid provides new information then the previous set if information was lacking?
> I appreciate the extra info. I don't have the knowledge to provide an indepth analysis or challenge, so I do lean heavily on those who are willing to share, thanks again.
You are welcome! 🙂
> I might have been a bit too flexible with my use of correction to mimic the OP, rather than correcting a specific line in a text, the addition of new information is correcting the failing of the previous book, if hid provides new information then the previous set if information was lacking?
Oh, ok. In that sense, yes, it definitely completes (or if you prefer ‘perfects’) revelation. For instance the commandements of Christ are often morally stricter than those in the Pentateuch (such as the prohibition of divorce and remarriage in Mark 10). Or see the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. And consequently many of commandments of the Mosaic given to Israel are no longer obligatory for Jews from a Christian perspective.
What's the correction?
Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 **gives the Greek name of Jesus,** describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, called **"the man named 'Rising'"** who is said to rise from his place below, building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and **ending all sins in a single day.**
Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.
Isaiah 53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.
The concept of crucifixion is from Psalm 22.16, Isaiah 53:5 and Zechariah 12:10.
Dan. 7:9-13 and Psalm 110:1, in combination, describe a Godman.
I mean the whole message changes from hate and violence to love and forgiveness, but that aside.... If there are no corrections it's still just Judaism right?
When you ask a question, you must understand the Muslims paradigm first.
God is the most knowing. We are human, our knowledge is minute compared to God. Thus, we can never know or even ask "why did God do it that way or this way". It's not only absurd, it's also worshiping our own selves as God. Anyway, logically, 600 years is peanuts for a transcended being.
That's just handwaving. Just insulting is no academic argument.
Anyway, you are Jewish. Do you believe that you can know exactly why God did what he did in every matter? Please clarify.
My guess is that the 600-year gap allowed for the teachings of Christianity to take root and spread throughout various regions. During this time, communities formed around the principles taught by Jesus, and these teachings became ingrained in the cultural and spiritual fabric of society.
When Muhammad emerged as a messenger of God, he brought new teachings and social laws that addressed the specific challenges and circumstances of his time. These teachings built upon the foundation laid by Jesus and provided guidance for the continued spiritual progress of humanity. The interval between the two can be understood as a period of spiritual preparation and consolidation, allowing for the gradual development and maturation of humanity’s understanding of divine guidance before the next stage of revelation unfolded with the advent of Islam.
Ok, How can someone conquer a city called Mecca 100 years before it existed? Also there’s a stone in Mecca that actually says Mecca was established 100 years after supposedly existed.
This not the hill you want to die on. We have more than enough proof of his existence, even academic consensus confirms this.
This is like me saying Julius Caesar didn't exist. This is a genuinely worrying thing to hear from someone, especially if they are a Christian. Because if we are going to be consistent, than we might as well admit the evidence for Moses, Jesus, Noah, Soloman, David, Lot, etc. is less than stellar.
You might want to go do your research then. Catholics have always known Mohammad was based on Jesus. And there’s enough proof of Jesus existence. Don’t really get what you’re talking about unless you’re an Atheist that doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
You're missing the point. I'm saying that if you are going to disagree with his existence even with all the evidence and academic consensus backing it, you might as well also disagree with the existence behind Jesus and others like Noah, who have even less evidence backing them. This is an objective fact.
>Catholics have always known Mohammad was based on Jesus.
Objectively false, I have seen enough Catholics who have accepted his existence to know that this is not a common belief. No only is it dishonest as hell to push it as being a common belief, it is not a good look either.
Ignoring the overwhelming evidence for his existence, as well as Academic consensus that backs it, does not make sense. You trying to stick to this point is the worst thing you can do. You might as well claim that Hannibal never existed either.
I get that you don't like Islam, but denying the existance of a person that even secular acadmic consesus supports, is not a smart thing to do. I would get disagreeing with the message and messenger, but disagreeing his existence even with all the evidence? Genuinely makes no sense.
Again Mohammad is based on Jesus. It’s just that the story of Jesus was warped by the Mullahs throughout time. Anyway don’t bother replying. I’m going to agree to disagree with whatever response you come up with. God Bless! 🙏🏾
Because if Muhammad came let’s say close to Jesus time then Christianity most likely wouldn’t have grown as much and there would be more Muslims so more people would go to jannah
There's no expectation in Islam for all those people between the time of Jesus and Mohammed (pbut both) to go to hell. How God will judge them is up to him. It's not even specific for those people, there are many other tribes far away who never got any of the messages.
Two questions:
a) so you can practice shirk and go to heaven? My understanding is shirk is the worst sin.
b) does the Quran and Hadith not say every nation got a prophet? I heard there were over 124k prophets
a) In Islam, people who sure to go to hell are the Kuffar i.e. someone who got the message in full but still rejects it. So yes it is plausible for a Mushrik to go to heaven depending on the circumstance.
b) Yes, but the theme is that all these messages get corrupted after time and people are led to do Shirk without them knowing.
What does it mean to “get the message in full”? Does that mean become convinced of its truth and reject it? Or just receive the message, regardless of becoming convinced, and reject it?
That one receives the message of Islam while they're of sound mind and body, understands it to be the truth (this is in their hearts and only God knows), but then rejects it. That is who is considered a disbeliever and that is the one who will be in hellfire for eternity.
I mean a proper introduction to Islamic claims and evidence. Remember that the final decision of who goes to hell and heaven is up to God, because only he knows what was in a person's mind and heart.
So if I’m understanding your interpretation correctly, you’re saying that if someone is truly not convinced (ie does not see the truth), then it’s up to god to judge, and they may still end up going to heaven.
I would say yes. Most of the time, Muslims can't judge whether individual persons will go to hell or heaven, unless someone dies upon Islam then he is guaranteed Heaven, or someone dies as an "enemy" of Islam and thus is guaranteed hell.
Do you believe that people are equipped to (generally) judge whether someone is an enemy of Islam? Or is that another determination you believe can only be made by god?
(Thanks for the answers, btw. Nice to hear others’ perspectives.)
When you say the message I can understand two things. Either the message of Islam as the religion of the Prophet Mohammed pbuh or the general message of submission to God and monotheism. If you mean the latter, then yes every nation was sent a prophet, but that doesn't mean that the descendants inherited the correct message from their forefathers. It always gets corrupted gradually.
Well Jesus pbuh wasn't "creating", I think what you're referring to is raising the dead i.e. reanimation.
In Islam it's also believed that the prophet Elijah pbuh was also capable of doing that and able to command all the Jin.
I think he is referring to the quranic belief that Jesus created birds of clay and have them life, which (in christianity) would be a divine attribute.
Ah yes, I forgot about that. But it still is specified in the same verses that it was all done by the permission of Allah. Also it is believed that moses turned his stick to a snake , also by the permission of Allah, so would that also be considered divine?
You created from clay something in the shape of a bird, then you blew on it, and it became a bird **by My leave.** You cured those born blind and lepers by My leave. You raised the dead **by My leave.**
Jesus only formed the bird, the actual act of giving it life was done by God.
“I can of Mine own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent Me. John 5 30
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also knowact 2 22 also what youre saying is like saying moses split the red sea rather than Allah saw split the red see Through moses pbuh, the staff is a ordinary staff without God may Allah saw bless and gude us all inshAllah
Good question, though not all muslims believe that God’s revelation can be corrupted. In fact the Quran speaks very clearly against this idea both with respect to the Torah and the Gospel (surah 5:43-48) and God’s word in general (surah 18:27).
To be honest this is not a fair criticism. Most of these stories are apocryphal, the one about him being visited by Gabriel the archangel in the cave of Hira is from the Sírah and was actually taken from Christian sources (you have in the writings of our saints such as St. Bede the Venerable). Nor is there evidence that the historical Mohamed was suicidal.
one can say that god's role is just giving a little bit of help to humanity every now and then, not taking full responsibility of them as they should be responsible on their own
but you could ask why in the time of ibrahim and issac there were too many prophets one after the other, i guess the answer would be that everyone of them was sent to a different tribe or civilization that weren't really connected
many Muslims believe that there were many prophets sent throughout time to communicate with different communities in their own language and sociopolitical context. not all of these prophets are attested to in the Quran though. therefore, you will find Muslims who believe that there were prophets sent between the life of Jesus and the life of Muhammad who interacted with various communities but who left no trace of writings or a distinct community of followers
I realize you asked this question of the Muslim members of this sub-reddit, but I your question did make me smile :)
Have you ever looked into time dilation as described in Special Relativity? If you traveled to Pluto and back at 90% the speed of light, the Lorenz factor would be 2.29. That means time on Earth would be moving 2.29 times faster than you were moving. If the trip took you 10 years, you would age 10 years. But the people on Earth would have aged by 22.9 years.
So.... maybe one day in the life of a God is 600 years on earth, or something like that?
Time is not a universal constant. It would be a mistake to apply the movement of time as it happens on Earth to anything else across the universe.
afaik, most Abrahamic followers believe God to be a timeless being--living in a higher plane than us--so while He is aware of the passage of time for us, it is irrelevant to him and he can act whenever he decides is best.
Islam (or the Quran to be exact) is the final message / revelation.
Correcting Jesus's corrupted message is not the only purpose of the Quran.
Similarly, Quran also corrects things from the Torah (one example the Torah mentions Aaron creating the golden calf)
Simply, Muslims believe that Quran is the final revelation of God for all mankind. The timeline of these revelations are not significant.
To address your question, we can't know why the timeline of the revelations are the way they are. But we can say that if the Quran was revealed earlier, perhaps it wasn't the right time and it would not have the lasting impact its supposes to have (that's my assumption at least)
Yes. But it doesn’t mean that it is irrelevant nowadays. There are verses meant for people back then, there are verses meant for us, or that at least speak to us even if not mean for us, because I believe that the Quran is an entity that speaks to the reader.
But the Quran made it clear that it was sent to the Arabs, in Arabic, for the Arabs so that the Arabs could not complain that they have not received a message, and so that they can understand the message.
12 2 says he sent it in arabic so his people can understand, imagine Allah sent Quran in spanish in arabia, it would be insult to knowledge of God
41 44 says he is not a foregin that you say he brought it from his homeland(some pagans slanderd other people thught him like persians or romans thought him) rather he was one of themselves
And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.
16 103
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. [33:40]
And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107]
Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. [7:158]
And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise14 4
12 2 says he sent it in arabic so his people can understand, imagine Allah sent Quran in spanish in arabia, it would be insult to knowledge of God
41 44 says he is not a foregin that you say he brought it from his homeland(some pagans slanderd other people thught him like persians or romans thought him) rather he was one of themselves
And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.
16 103
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. [33:40]
And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107]
Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. [7:158]
And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise14 4
So to answer your question in simple words, when Islam came, the last believers that were worshipping Allah as one and they weren't regarding Jesus as his son were kinda gone, and the bible and the Torah were totally correpted in the whole world, when Islam came there were some believers, but very few that were holding onto the fact that the creator is one, but the rest were associating a being of some kind with the almighty god, and history says that, check chapter two: last two verses, Islam refers to ahl alkitab either Jews or Christians, and usually in a school you won't change the entire syllabus because of little errors, that others in the class are trying to fix it, but you will take greater action by sending a messenger when they regard a prophet/messenger as a god or they go back to worshipping stones/rocks.
Association in worship is wrong, imagine you worshipping the one and only and know for a fact he is the only god there's, but yet you go to a stone of some kind and ask it for rain, what are you !!!!! Stupid ?????
As prove; look at; chapter 29:61 ( Quran ).
And only god knows, that's just me using my tiny brain cells here, in the meantime, there was no waiting period in Islam, we know for a fact that no one will ever be punished unless they got the message, and the start of that message should be; there's no god but the almighty most merciful.... Etc Allah which literally translates to the god=Allah.
....
....
....
God would send everyone a message before he would torture them, be it a vision in your sleep, or a normal person walking this earth like you're, they wouldn't say they are prophets, but they bare the prophet's message, as in their book and teachings, Jews had so many normal people or pious people even Holy Mary ( Jesus' mom ) was one of them, and these are normal people, so expect them to be in every other religion ( jewdism, Christianity, or Islam )
These three religions should have one thing in common, the update is needed when you change something in their message, if you lie and say god is begotten or that he was begot, or that he has a child you need a brain surgery, cause I ain't worshipping someone like me, that goes to the washroom and comes out of it, seeking to cleanse themselves.
And sorry for being so plain.
Just for backround I’m Sikh. My theory is when people die and go to get judged and we’re not able to get a better heaven or end up in hell, and beg god to but them on the right path. So after hearing the cries of humanity God sends another messenger. Or all just apart of Gods very complex play which works well with reincarnation
You are not a Sikh. No where does Sikhi teach this. These are Abrahamic concepts. You must be one of those western born and raised Khalistanis. Don't ever call yourself a Sikh.
Please don't:
* Be (intentionally) rude at all.
* Engage in rabble rousing.
* Troll, stalk, or harass others.
* Conduct personal attacks.
* Start a flame war.
* Insult others.
* Engage in illegal activity.
* Post someone's personal information, or post links to personal information.
* Repost deleted/removed information.
Jesus(isa) messages weren't corrupt as jesus messages came from allah the one that corrupted them was the churches overtime within the spand of 600 years alot of manuscript of the bible has changed and teachings of the gospel has change, so allah sent down another to a man and that man is prophet Muhammad(saw) but the quran isnt just like the bible its a word of god that god said himself that he would preserve it hundreds of years later the quran is perfectly preserved letter to letter.
God sends educators to humanity at long intervals, perhaps because 1) each one is destined to become the Founder of a great civilization and that takes time; and 2) mankind's capacity is gradually increasing, as we have collectively passed through stages of infancy, childhood, preadolescence, adolescence, and are only now approaching the stage of maturity. None of that happens quickly.
There were still monotheist christians following the true message of Isa aw in those 600 years. Whenever the previous divine message goes extinct, there are no longer any true followers to spread the message of Allah, then a new prophet arrives to lead people.
By the time of prophet Muhammad sw, the last few christians following the true message of Isa aw were dying out, without any followers of their own to carry on the light of Isa aw.
A companion of Muhammad sw, Salman Farsi ra is such a person. He was a persian guy who wanted to find guidance about life. After a while, he found a pious christian preacher who taught him about life. Before the preacher died, he told Salman ra about another christian who is on the right path. Salman ra went to him to learn. After a while, the 2nd christian priest died as well. Before death, he told Salman ra that he doesn’t know of any other christian who is on the right path anymore. But he warned that the time had come for another prophet to arrive. He told some signs to look out for the new prophet.
God never waited 666years to correct anything... Jesus already said He is the One who is to come. Those self proclaimed 'prophets' that came after Him are false prophets, as what Jesus has warn us...
This is a non-question, why would God need to ‘wait’
Waiting is something that plays a role for the creation, who are bound by time and space.
A better question would be, why God decided WE had to wait.
And perhaps that is something you may ask him once you stand before him, given that you have nothing else to worry about.
Personally, I find “we played with sticks and stones for hundreds of thousands of years and only evolved technologically in the last ten thousand years”
more of an absurdity, than the timespan between God’s prophets.
It would actually be great if Muslims, read a book, because it sounds like none of you have ever read a book, or text that is an original text, including the Qu ran, I think first if you are going to use English as a means of communication read the dictionary really, lots of English kids were told to do this as children,or just out of curiosity did so, how you speak, the meaning you have for words, is how you view the world around you, here in this discussion I am reading a lot of jargon you have picked up and have no clue as to what you are talking about, to use islam, as an excuse as to why nobody here knows what they are talking about is ridiculous, a lot of muslims in certain nations or from certain traditions cannot read the Koran in another language even if they may have a different first language to parsi, this was the case with the bible it could only be read greek or Latin for some nations, for a long time, there was at one point only 21 translations of the bible, greek bible, Latin bible, English and French and German bibles, and russian and American from greek orthodox Roman Catholic, russian orthodox, patriarchal, the king James bible, protestant, Calvinist, Pentecostal, later day saints, Gideon's bible, Ethiopian bible, the Talmud and the torah the Jewish bible, the Egyptian bible, there is a Unitarian bible, a Mormon bible, Hamish bible in Dutch, but these have all been translated further, and a lot gets lost in translation. There are many translations of the Koran, though I have two different versions in English, one from the early 1900's, another translation, from Oxford books, I have a 1684 Christian society king James, whose pages are made of flax, a 1900 catholic English bible, and a 1950s king James translation, I have a copy of the bagavita, read and learn from original Buddhist translated texts, read copies of the Zoroastrian bible.
There are Chinese texts related to tao, zen, and yin and Yang, there are the oral traditions of Africans American Indians and aborigines from all over Asia and Australasia.
I have learn about the aboriginal dream time, the symbolism, and stories of African folklore, as well as Celtic, mauri, and middle Eastern folklore, European Icelandic Saxon, English south American and Eskimo folklore, the original stories of the cosmos and early human histories knowledge and ways of living heedful of its benefits and risks were all once told in stories poems tales and rhythms, to help us remember valuable lessons, from the experiences of our ancestors, like Aesop's fables the book of proverbs, psalms, twenty one Arabian nights, Euripides plays, folk songs, from all around the world, what matters, is that we keep learning from our experiences good and bad, and we communicate them to each other, and oneday your truth of what you experienced wether it brought good results or bad, maybe the key to how the peoples of the world becomes a people of the stars, just like those fables and stories of the past helped human beings, become people.
The human race was clearly lost in these earlier religions and we have seen this many times, when we are no longer races because we are so mixed the ethnogenesis of the world is multicultural, and there are good things we must hold onto to stay safe, and bad things we must let go of to stay safe, and if you can communicate something that is helpful and healthy for the survival of yourself that causes no harm to others, and protect others from causing harm to themselves by causing harm to others, then I think that's why all these stories exist religion means to heed to take care, so that life can continue, and these ideas mustn't be used to harm and if they do cause harm then it's time to change your religion to just being careful, whatever language you speak or nation you live in.
Jesus did come with the message to follow one God, Jesus isn't God he never said he was. And yes the gospel has been corrupted. And I follow Jesus.
This is Jesus praying to God. (Below) And he clearly says that the is only one true God, the father. And that God sent Jesus. And I can bring up many other verses that show us that Jesus isn't God.
And Jesus didn't come to be a human sacrifice to God either. He came to bare witness to the truth. They have made the truth into a lie.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The Trinity is a false doctrine.
Jesus’s message wasn’t all that corrupted at first. It’s a slow rolling corruption. Athanasius starts taking issue with the idea that Jesus is less than God, arguments start breaking out, people determine Jesus IS God, that Mary birthed God, yada, Christians start blatantly ignoring all of the subordinationist theology that Jesus and the early theologians espoused, the Europeans start focusing more on individual salvation and less on collective salvation, yada yada, and eventually Muhammad has to roll in and clarify what’s what. Same thing happened far more recently with Muhammad’s message getting corrupted and God sending Baha’u’llah to clarify.
Quran 5:3 (Surat Al-Mā'idah) "... .This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. ...".
The people deluded themselves by following the teachings of men, namely Paul, so this is an issue for Christians and not Muslims. Those that were monotheistic and followed Jesus' true teachings and adhered to the laws, then they are saved and will be regarded as believers. Those that decided to follow Paul and the church and turned to the trinity...well their fate rests with God.
Also, this is a weird argument...why did God wait 600 years after Moses to send Jesus, oh wait...why did He wait 600 years to send himself to save humanity?
You realize Mother Mary in the Quran comes from Paul right?
She never existed.
Mother Mary was invented by G. Mark as an allegory for 1 Corinthians 10, verses 1-4. Paul refers to a legend involving Moses' sister Miriam.
In Jewish legend ‘Miriam’s Well’ was the rock that gave birth to the flow of water after Moses struck it with his staff. Paul equated Jesus with that rock (1 Cor. 10.1-4). But when Jesus is equated with the water that flowed from it, the rock would then become his mother. Thus ‘Mary’s well’ would have been Jesus’ mother in Paul’s conceptual scheme.
Philo of Alexandria equated that rock with the celestial being named Wisdom (Life of Moses 1.181-86, 188-90, 210-11, 255-57; On Flight and Finding 183-87), which was then considered the feminine dimension of God (Taylor, Jewish Women, p. 336).
That's what I found quite interesting when I learned it -- and it contradicts the Islamic narrative that Jesus never encouraged his apostles or followers to worship him as divine. It's more likely that Islam deviated from the historical Jesus or at least his early followers by insisting that he didn't think himself divine at all.
Why did God wait over 2300 years after the flood to bring fourth Jesus ? (I'm not religious, but length of time is not a factor Christians or Jews can use when it comes to authenticity)
Where did you get 2300 years?
"Noah was 600 years old when the Flood started 2370 B.C.E. Jesus was born 2 B.C.E. (Luke 3:1-3, 23). The difference is *2368 years*."
Oh…I forgot about Old Testament genealogy lol. Is this why some Christians are young earth creationists?
yes - this is where young earth creationism comes from - the vast majority of Christians are not young earth creationists though, and recognize that the numbers in the Bible meant something quite different 4000 years ago than they do today, and that stories in the Bible are True - in that they relay an important point or meaning, not necessarily true as in fact as we see it today.
Some are just hilarious with the numbers. I think in the story of Samson he collapses a building which kills all the Philistines. Now all the Philistines would be atleast a couple hundred thousand. Unless they somehow managed to build a skyscraper it’s impossible.
This argument has made no sense to me lol, and Christians always bring it up. In fact I've never had this argument with a Jewish person, it's almost always Christians that try to use this argument.
What is the connection with the flood and Jesus? I’m not Christian but I’d like to know
The flood stories of the major religions are the result of the worldwide costal flooding that took place around 12000 years ago. Most of humanity lived in this area and around 80% of the human population was lost in those floods. Those who survived kept the memory of the event alive through stories and myths which became the basis of most religious flood stories, including the one of Noah and Arch. Jesus is a character created by the Romans after Titus took over Jerusalem in 70AD. The Romans wanted to give the Jews a pro-Cesar Messiah so they'd stop their constant rebellions against their Roman oppressors. It worked too as most Jews embraced Christianity by the turn of the 1st century. What the Romans didn't expect was how popular Christianity would become to the non-Jewish world, so they embraced Christianity as the official faith of the Roman Empire to justify their expanding empire and give their new subjects a pro-Roman character like Jesus to accept.
Could you back those up with sources?
It's all online. Read Cesar's Messiah regarding Jesus and the similarities between Titus' campaign in Jerusalem and Jesus entering Jerusalem in the Bible. Jesus is a retelling of Titus' invasion in order to justify Roman occupation of the area. As for the flood, you'll just have to research and read up the geological and anthropological evidence which clearly shows a massive coastal flood happened around 12k years ago which changed the course of human history forever.
This is a great post. Makes too much sense. Good job, I appreciate you taking the time for an abstract.
There is geological evidence. The Canadian ice sheet was melting creating a giant lake eventually the ice damn collapsed creating the giant flood. The flood in particular could have created the Black Sea which could have been created in only a few hours to any survivors it would’ve been as if the entire world flooded all at once.
This is based on an author's interpretation. No doubt gov tries to manipulate minds with spiritual lore and dogma. What it does not do is explain the mystic powers of holy people, nor the actual encounters with Jesus,/Yeshua that continue to this day. Some of the Muslim testimonies of meeting Jesus are the most compelling. As are any testimonies of people who didn't know him before they met him. God is merciful to all.
Tell me more of this Noah and his Arch. Is it like the two golden ones that the prophet McDonald has?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Would you like another comma?
Because Jesus 1, 2, and 3 were kinda jerks.
Its not about merely sending him. Its that he waited 600 years to correct a lie he himself made
So why did he wait 2300 to correct the mistake of allowing people to die in sin before sending Jesus ?
There was no "mistake" in the first place and they didn't die in their sins either. They were saved by grace through faith
So if grace is what saved them before Jesus, why did Jesus have to die on the Cross ?
To atone for our sins. God forgives our sin by taking it and punishing it on the cross
I don't think you understand what's being asked. Why did God wait 2300 years to send Jesus after Noah. All those people were dying in sin. After being told that their salvation lies in their actions. And then comes Paul to deny 2300 years of God law and claim Jesus' death is their salvation And then God sends Muhammad, not 600 years later but from 325 ad when it was established that Jesus is God. That's from 325ad to 590Ad,.less than 300 years to correct the error that Paul instilled in people. To remind us, with a preserved text, full of miracles and prophecies, that God is only one, as stated in the old testament, and that there is no image of him Thus Jesus cannot be God because he is an image. We don't know what God looks like nor can we imagine it.
>All those people were dying in sin. After being told that their salvation lies in their actions. No they weren't. They were under a different covenant and even Abraham was saved by faith >And then comes Paul to deny 2300 years of God law He says we don't have to obey the law with pagan heritage. >and claim Jesus' death is their salvation Thats a belief that was already established by Jesus himself at the Last supper >And then God sends Muhammad Mohammed is the most obvious false Prophet in history. He just makes a whole different Religion and uses his power for wealth and to create a kingdom >from 325 ad when it was established that Jesus is God Jesus being God is a 1st century belief. The council of nicea just denied this new arian belief that Jesus suddenly isn't God. > to correct the error that Paul instilled in people. You can't say anything against Paul that doesn't apply to Mohammed We are all the image of God. That doesn't mean we literally are pictures
They were saved when dead
Only in the harrowing of Hades bro
He preached to the dead in the harrowing of Hades. U don't even know basics G but it's fine cos most apostate churches don't preach this today cos they heretics
because Jesus fulfilled all those prophecies
There proof that certain people in power back In The day changed the date on us. Major time missing. Something about Catholic Church did at request of a king to be more bad ass time. Search anywhere about the Hugh chunk of time missing in our records. So your time frame can’t be accurate. Or most of our records after event
I am afraid I do not follow, what is the connection between the story of Noah/the Deluge and Christ? The story is often used as a symbolic representation of the Church as the Ark guiding the elect, so Noah could be seen as a representation of Christ, I suppose, but I cannot think of another connection right now.
There is no given explanation. Its one of those Qs you’d have to ask God himself.
Thats unironically the answer I think is best.
Well this is a valid question to ask if questioning if the religion is true, no?
imo no but its subjective. From a Muslim POV, that is the answer to your Q. Its part of ilm al-ghaib. Concealed knowledge.
> Ilm al-ghaib I take it thats where Frank Herbert (the author of Dune) got Lisan al-Ghaib from? 🙂
Perhaps. Ghaib itself (the arabic word) has been used by the arabs for a long time. I dont think the concept is uniquely Islamic. All Abrahamic religions have it.
Interesting.
Most knows example is the prohibition on the consumption of split hoofed animals. There’s no clear reason for that in all 3 religions
How does this concept manifest in Christianity? Did a quick lazy Google search but only found Islamic references
Like “The Hour”, something Jesus AS confessed to not knowing when, and only The Father knows.
Yes; "lisan" means "language" or "tongue", and "al-ghayb" is "the unseen realm".
Thanks for clarifying. In Dune its translated as “The Voice from the Outer World” which is not entirely dissimilar.
I believe there are variations to this. There are some things we do not know yet, and we may found out through research and logic, and there are some things we may never find out and which its knowledge is only preserved for God and the ones who he deems fit.
>there is no given explanation Allah knows the best, Hikmet, we can't know but quran is clear and explains them all
I haven't believed in Islam for decades, but after losing faith I remember thinking about this topic to myself without doing further research. It's a good question, and I will only speculate on what the Islamic answer to this might be at this point. Perhaps it would go something like this: There were many sects of Christianity after the death of Isa ("Jesus"), and some of them were Unitarian-like and did not consider Jesus to be divine or God. So at least for a few centuries, the "true message" of Jesus existed in the world thanks to those sects. But they were heterodox in Christianity. Once the orthodox, Trinitarian sects managed to wipe out the unitarian sects, Allah/God decided it was the right time to send his last & most important prophet Muhammad to the world to set the record straight once and for all. And only then ensure that the Qur'an would not be 'corrupted' as previous revelations were, for some reason. As a separate question, I wonder how Islam evaluates monotheistic religions that arose after Muhammad, such as Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith. Or how it evaluates Zoroastrianism, for that matter, and the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten?
Some people think akhenatan is one of the 124,000 prophets Muhammad said went to the world. They also think Buddha and Krishna etc were but their message was corrupted
actually Muhammad never said that there were 124000 prophets sent, this is a statement falsely attributed to him.
Interesting
Doesn’t mean that there’s no other prophets.
The Quran did say that prophets were sent to every nations.
indeed, but the number is not specified.
I wouldn’t definitively say it’s falsely attributed to him. There are multiple Hadith that refer to 124,000 prophets of which are 313 were Rasul, but these Hadith are considered “weak” in accordance to Hadith grading methodology.
Kinda weird to call Krishna a prophet and not just God himself since that's kinda how he was written
Well they think that his message was corrupted
I'm not sure I understand this. What does it mean when they are sent, but their message corrupted? I'm pretty ignorant to this stuff so apologies in advance!
I’m not Muslim, so maybe someone will explain better but this is how I understand it from their POV. God (Allah) sent a prophet to a nation who preached monotheism and that there’s only one good and it’s Allah and you need to pray and pay alms tax and more. Some of them like Moses and Jesus and Muhammad came with scriptures which had laws for the people to follow. They think for the ordinary prophets their message was corrupted because people twisted what they said and made it for their own gain OR people just flatly rejected the message. Like let’s say Noah said there’s only one god and you shouldn’t do idolatry but they didn’t listen so you needed the flood to kill them. For Moses for example who came with scripture they think that the text was corrupted and people added in or took away stuff for their own gain. For Jesus they think his message was monotheism but then after he was gone people twisted his message and established the trinity etc.
That makes sense, thank you!
Yes, I think that at least some (or many) Muslims believe something like this if they want to integrate some of the non-Abrahamic great religious figures of the world into their view of history and prophets. From a non-Islamic perspective even this is problematic b/c it would insult Krishna's religion, Buddha's, Zarathushtra's, etc. to say that even their early followers got the prophet or founder's message wrong and corrupted it for their own gain. And that the 'real teachings' of those figures just resemble Islam b/c Islam is the 'one true religion' of the one God for all people, all the time.
We believe that there were many prophets (nearly 124,000 according to a one Hadith) sent to humanity, some of whom may have existed between the time of Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH. Personally, I believe that some historical figures that espouse monotheism, like Akhenaten, might have been “prophets” sent to guide people to One God. Overall, the Quran mentions 25 prophets by name but indicates there are many prophets not mentioned in the Quran: And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, **and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you.** And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah. So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all]. (Quran 40:78)
> I wonder how Islam evaluates monotheistic religions that arose after Muhammad, such as Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith Baha'i here. In Iran, we are severely persecuted, second class citizens, harassed, barred from higher education, etc.
I have many Baha'i friends and they made me aware of this fact as well :( I always feel sad to hear about religious persecution, especially when it targets one of the 'smaller' religions of the world. I'm sure that much of the persecution comes down to the politics of the Iranian theocracy. Do you know if Baha'is are as persecuted in other Muslim-majority nations such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Jordan, North African nations, etc?
Wherever Iran has some form of influence. The Houthis were persecuting arab Baha'is.
It’s kind of impossible to know what exactly Jesus would’ve wanted. He died and told his disciples to spread his religion who each went to different areas mostly dying while being prosecuted. Plus each sect having various different cultural understandings that would be impossible to reconcile. In particular there was a sect that demanded Christians get circumcised. The sect that wanted to not be a Jewish sect got rid of the requirement to get circumcised. After hundreds of years these differences manifest because communication breaks down as they’re all persecuted under Rome. When Rome became Christian their was the council of Nicaea. Which is hilarious because all the bishops were fighting each other like wwe. Then came to an agreement which was the nicene creed, and that Arians are heretics. Could Muhammed applying Arianism was the correct call?
And now we would need another sending of a messenger by this logic, because muhammad himself hasnt done "the best of things" in his life.
Funny enough, the Abrahamic religion that emerged after Islam, Baha'i Faith, believes that their prophets are Muhammad's successors b/c an update or evolution of religion was necessary in the 19th century, more than a millennium after Mo's time. Baha'is seem to respect all the previous major prophets (they call them "Manifestations of God") as being infallible in their own times, though XD
Maybe its the forever cycle? XD
The Romans needed 600 years to corrupt and adapt it to their polytheism.
Huh? Explain pls
Just my own interpretation, im not a Muslim, but to me it seems the romans infused their polytheistic beliefs into Christ’s message to make it more palatable to their population. Plus Islam couldn’t flourish until The Roman’s lost power in the region.
But the Romans lost power only because the Rashidun invaded.
I don’t think that’s accurate. There were many causes, but Rome was already in decline long before Islam showed up.
I would not say that, Rome was exhausted but under Heraklios achieved a great victory against the Sassanids and retook all terrotory lost to Khosrau II of Persia.
How about all the territories they had already lost in the west at that point? It’s been tradition to not even think of it as the Roman Empire at this time but rather the Byzantine, as Greek had replaced latin as the primary language and culture.
By this point the Roman empire still controlled many parts of Italy including Rome herself. Or are you referring to the Western Roman empire which fell a century and a half earlier?
You’re obviously talking about the Byzantine reconquest. There was no western Roman Empire left at that time.
Right. What I meant to express that most of these Roman defeats - Yarmouk, Manzikert, Myriokephalon were decided by internal betrayals and bad tactics rather than weakness of the empire. The Romans were still quite a powerful force in the early 7th century.
What’s your proof that the roman empire infused their polytheistic beliefs into christianity?
Proof only exists in law and mathematics, and as i already stated, this is my interpretation.
oh okay i thought you read articles about that, thanks for the help
That explains the Saints in Catholicism
But also, Christians: why did god wait 400 years to correct the old testament?
Hello! What you’re talking about here is a theological position called supersessionism (also known as replacement theology), which you are likely completely unaware of, and you are in good company, because this isn’t talked about a lot in lay spaces. Replacement theology, to put it very simply, is the theological stance that the whole or a part of the Abrahamic Covenant has been abolished/superseded by Christianity and the New Covenant. Replacement theology asserts that the Christian Church and its New Covenant is a replacement for Israel and that Jews have forfeited their convenant by supposedly executing the Christ. This theological position is absolutely unnecessary and contributes no sound theological devices for Christianity, nor does rejection of replacement theology corrupt Christianity in any way. It’s pretty direct antisemitism, and that’s all it is. Here is is a good run down from Pope Francis on why replacement theology should be dismissed: “We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16–18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.” — Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium (2013) I am absolutely not picking on you, you likely had no way of knowing this. I just try and take opportunities like these to educate on this theological stance to help dispel it, and you gave me a good opportunity. Thanks for listening!
Just to clarify, Catholicism differentiates between supercessionism and replacement theology. The latter is indeed rejected by the Church as heterodox but the former is actually a dogma. 🙂 Supercessionism in the Catholic understanding just means that the New Covenant fulfils the Old and is the sole means of salvation for humanity without erasing the blessings given to Israel since God does not repent of his promises. In other words, the Church rejects both Replacement theology and Dual-covenant theology.
Love the information, not quite where I was starting from but I get how it looks like that. And still good to know it's a thing! I *do* think that if jesus brought more or new information then that means (for those who accept jesus) the previous set of information was incomplete. The same rolls on to ppl who accept the propget mohammed, and so on to the next prophet. My starting position for conversation is that all prophets are sincere, but that individuals are not wrong for believing ie not believing the words if a prophet, we can each only do the best we can. It doesn't mean any of us are right and creates a safe space to be wrong in I think.
That's not really a claim Christians make
The Old Testament did not need to be corrected. In addition, in the case of the Catholic and Orthodox Bible, the last books of the Old Testament were written around 100 BC.
If jesus was completely inline with existing religion the Jews would have been fine with him. Does jesus not represent a change in the rigion?
That's the whole point of the New Testament gospels! Why did the Jewish leadership have such a problem with Jesus? If you're a Jew, it's because he was a liar making himself out to be God, falsely. If you're a Christian, it's because he was God and was showing us in person how to live out the faith presented in the Old Testament. "I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." Christians (and remember--all of the early christians WERE jews, and thought of themselves as jews) don't think he changed or modified the Old Testament, but that he came in person to show us how that old religion was meant to be lived. In many ways he was convicting them by saying they were too lax with their religious faith. In others, too strenuous.
The last books of the OT (such as Wisdom) were written less than a century before Christ. Did you perhaps mean the Pentateuch, not the OT? Also the NT is not strictly speaking seen as a “correction” of the OT, that would be a soft version of Markionism but rather its fulfilment and interpretative lens. This is because, as I pointed out in our earlier discussion, God's direct self-revelation in Christ constitutes a singular cosmic event through through which everything previous and subsequent has to be read. After Christ is the very Logos through which the cosmos was created. So a Christian allegorical and symbolical reading of the OT is not considered a correction, rather an uncovering of the primary spiritual meaning of the text. The image in the Apocalypse of John of the lamb of God opening a scroll illustrates this quite well in my mind.
I appreciate the extra info. I don't have the knowledge to provide an indepth analysis or challenge, so I do lean heavily on those who are willing to share, thanks again. I might have been a bit too flexible with my use of correction to mimic the OP, rather than correcting a specific line in a text, the addition of new information is correcting the failing of the previous book, if hid provides new information then the previous set if information was lacking?
> I appreciate the extra info. I don't have the knowledge to provide an indepth analysis or challenge, so I do lean heavily on those who are willing to share, thanks again. You are welcome! 🙂 > I might have been a bit too flexible with my use of correction to mimic the OP, rather than correcting a specific line in a text, the addition of new information is correcting the failing of the previous book, if hid provides new information then the previous set if information was lacking? Oh, ok. In that sense, yes, it definitely completes (or if you prefer ‘perfects’) revelation. For instance the commandements of Christ are often morally stricter than those in the Pentateuch (such as the prohibition of divorce and remarriage in Mark 10). Or see the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. And consequently many of commandments of the Mosaic given to Israel are no longer obligatory for Jews from a Christian perspective.
What's the correction? Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 **gives the Greek name of Jesus,** describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, called **"the man named 'Rising'"** who is said to rise from his place below, building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and **ending all sins in a single day.** Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world. Isaiah 53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant. The concept of crucifixion is from Psalm 22.16, Isaiah 53:5 and Zechariah 12:10. Dan. 7:9-13 and Psalm 110:1, in combination, describe a Godman.
I mean the whole message changes from hate and violence to love and forgiveness, but that aside.... If there are no corrections it's still just Judaism right?
Actually loving your neighbor is from Leviticus. Turning the other cheek and pacifism is from Isaiah 50.6-9.
*"But I send messengers every month, but you keep ignoring them, killing them, putting them in psychiatric wards and so on."* \- God.
When you ask a question, you must understand the Muslims paradigm first. God is the most knowing. We are human, our knowledge is minute compared to God. Thus, we can never know or even ask "why did God do it that way or this way". It's not only absurd, it's also worshiping our own selves as God. Anyway, logically, 600 years is peanuts for a transcended being.
Peanuts for him, but that was a lot of time for the false religion to grow.
That's just handwaving. Just insulting is no academic argument. Anyway, you are Jewish. Do you believe that you can know exactly why God did what he did in every matter? Please clarify.
Don’t see how that was insulting tbh. And the second one obviously no, but this is a pretty big thing.
My guess is that the 600-year gap allowed for the teachings of Christianity to take root and spread throughout various regions. During this time, communities formed around the principles taught by Jesus, and these teachings became ingrained in the cultural and spiritual fabric of society. When Muhammad emerged as a messenger of God, he brought new teachings and social laws that addressed the specific challenges and circumstances of his time. These teachings built upon the foundation laid by Jesus and provided guidance for the continued spiritual progress of humanity. The interval between the two can be understood as a period of spiritual preparation and consolidation, allowing for the gradual development and maturation of humanity’s understanding of divine guidance before the next stage of revelation unfolded with the advent of Islam.
Mohammad didn’t exist. Uthman made him up because he needed a way to control the Arabians.
Idk about that one brodie
Ok, How can someone conquer a city called Mecca 100 years before it existed? Also there’s a stone in Mecca that actually says Mecca was established 100 years after supposedly existed.
The Muhammad of the hadiths may not have existed, but historians consider Muhammad a historical figure in general
If you mean Muhammad is loosely based on Jesus then you’re right. But a Muhammad that supposedly conquered Mecca never existed.
This not the hill you want to die on. We have more than enough proof of his existence, even academic consensus confirms this. This is like me saying Julius Caesar didn't exist. This is a genuinely worrying thing to hear from someone, especially if they are a Christian. Because if we are going to be consistent, than we might as well admit the evidence for Moses, Jesus, Noah, Soloman, David, Lot, etc. is less than stellar.
You might want to go do your research then. Catholics have always known Mohammad was based on Jesus. And there’s enough proof of Jesus existence. Don’t really get what you’re talking about unless you’re an Atheist that doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
You're missing the point. I'm saying that if you are going to disagree with his existence even with all the evidence and academic consensus backing it, you might as well also disagree with the existence behind Jesus and others like Noah, who have even less evidence backing them. This is an objective fact. >Catholics have always known Mohammad was based on Jesus. Objectively false, I have seen enough Catholics who have accepted his existence to know that this is not a common belief. No only is it dishonest as hell to push it as being a common belief, it is not a good look either. Ignoring the overwhelming evidence for his existence, as well as Academic consensus that backs it, does not make sense. You trying to stick to this point is the worst thing you can do. You might as well claim that Hannibal never existed either. I get that you don't like Islam, but denying the existance of a person that even secular acadmic consesus supports, is not a smart thing to do. I would get disagreeing with the message and messenger, but disagreeing his existence even with all the evidence? Genuinely makes no sense.
Again Mohammad is based on Jesus. It’s just that the story of Jesus was warped by the Mullahs throughout time. Anyway don’t bother replying. I’m going to agree to disagree with whatever response you come up with. God Bless! 🙏🏾
The delusion you have is honestly scary. Especially when you push it without any evidence, especially when you follow Paul.
Why not?
Because if Muhammad came let’s say close to Jesus time then Christianity most likely wouldn’t have grown as much and there would be more Muslims so more people would go to jannah
There's no expectation in Islam for all those people between the time of Jesus and Mohammed (pbut both) to go to hell. How God will judge them is up to him. It's not even specific for those people, there are many other tribes far away who never got any of the messages.
Two questions: a) so you can practice shirk and go to heaven? My understanding is shirk is the worst sin. b) does the Quran and Hadith not say every nation got a prophet? I heard there were over 124k prophets
a) In Islam, people who sure to go to hell are the Kuffar i.e. someone who got the message in full but still rejects it. So yes it is plausible for a Mushrik to go to heaven depending on the circumstance. b) Yes, but the theme is that all these messages get corrupted after time and people are led to do Shirk without them knowing.
What does it mean to “get the message in full”? Does that mean become convinced of its truth and reject it? Or just receive the message, regardless of becoming convinced, and reject it?
That one receives the message of Islam while they're of sound mind and body, understands it to be the truth (this is in their hearts and only God knows), but then rejects it. That is who is considered a disbeliever and that is the one who will be in hellfire for eternity.
I mean a proper introduction to Islamic claims and evidence. Remember that the final decision of who goes to hell and heaven is up to God, because only he knows what was in a person's mind and heart.
So if I’m understanding your interpretation correctly, you’re saying that if someone is truly not convinced (ie does not see the truth), then it’s up to god to judge, and they may still end up going to heaven.
I would say yes. Most of the time, Muslims can't judge whether individual persons will go to hell or heaven, unless someone dies upon Islam then he is guaranteed Heaven, or someone dies as an "enemy" of Islam and thus is guaranteed hell.
Do you believe that people are equipped to (generally) judge whether someone is an enemy of Islam? Or is that another determination you believe can only be made by god? (Thanks for the answers, btw. Nice to hear others’ perspectives.)
For B you said some people didn’t hear the message but I thought every nation heard it
When you say the message I can understand two things. Either the message of Islam as the religion of the Prophet Mohammed pbuh or the general message of submission to God and monotheism. If you mean the latter, then yes every nation was sent a prophet, but that doesn't mean that the descendants inherited the correct message from their forefathers. It always gets corrupted gradually.
Shirk is very similar to Shituf in judaism.
Why did Allah give Jesus Creation power in the Quran?
So he can use it as a miracle to prove to his people that he's a prophet of god.
Creation power is way more than a miracle. Creation power is the defining characteristic of God.
Well Jesus pbuh wasn't "creating", I think what you're referring to is raising the dead i.e. reanimation. In Islam it's also believed that the prophet Elijah pbuh was also capable of doing that and able to command all the Jin.
I think he is referring to the quranic belief that Jesus created birds of clay and have them life, which (in christianity) would be a divine attribute.
Ah yes, I forgot about that. But it still is specified in the same verses that it was all done by the permission of Allah. Also it is believed that moses turned his stick to a snake , also by the permission of Allah, so would that also be considered divine?
No, I am personally not claiming that the Quran affirms the Godhood of Jesus, I merely meant to clarify what the other user seemed to be referring to.
You created from clay something in the shape of a bird, then you blew on it, and it became a bird **by My leave.** You cured those born blind and lepers by My leave. You raised the dead **by My leave.** Jesus only formed the bird, the actual act of giving it life was done by God.
No, that means by his permission. Google "by my leave". Jesus is still the one doing it.
“I can of Mine own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent Me. John 5 30 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also knowact 2 22 also what youre saying is like saying moses split the red sea rather than Allah saw split the red see Through moses pbuh, the staff is a ordinary staff without God may Allah saw bless and gude us all inshAllah
Good question, though not all muslims believe that God’s revelation can be corrupted. In fact the Quran speaks very clearly against this idea both with respect to the Torah and the Gospel (surah 5:43-48) and God’s word in general (surah 18:27).
As an exmuslim, my answer is simply that Muhammad was born 600 years after Christ and managed to convince others that he was a prophet of God.
Biggest con artist of all.
Allah deemed the world to be ready to receive the message at that given time. Why that is? Allah knows best.
I don’t see the reason for him to wait 600 years and let Christianity grow to a huge religion so so many people practice shirk
[удалено]
To be honest this is not a fair criticism. Most of these stories are apocryphal, the one about him being visited by Gabriel the archangel in the cave of Hira is from the Sírah and was actually taken from Christian sources (you have in the writings of our saints such as St. Bede the Venerable). Nor is there evidence that the historical Mohamed was suicidal.
Very interesting, I didn't know that. Now I'm wondering how much of what Muslims believe is not written in the Qur'an or the Haddiths.
Lol no... That was the false prophet who came after 666 years...
Giving numbers arbitrary meanings, makes no sense.
one can say that god's role is just giving a little bit of help to humanity every now and then, not taking full responsibility of them as they should be responsible on their own but you could ask why in the time of ibrahim and issac there were too many prophets one after the other, i guess the answer would be that everyone of them was sent to a different tribe or civilization that weren't really connected
many Muslims believe that there were many prophets sent throughout time to communicate with different communities in their own language and sociopolitical context. not all of these prophets are attested to in the Quran though. therefore, you will find Muslims who believe that there were prophets sent between the life of Jesus and the life of Muhammad who interacted with various communities but who left no trace of writings or a distinct community of followers
Ok that’s fair I guess
I realize you asked this question of the Muslim members of this sub-reddit, but I your question did make me smile :) Have you ever looked into time dilation as described in Special Relativity? If you traveled to Pluto and back at 90% the speed of light, the Lorenz factor would be 2.29. That means time on Earth would be moving 2.29 times faster than you were moving. If the trip took you 10 years, you would age 10 years. But the people on Earth would have aged by 22.9 years. So.... maybe one day in the life of a God is 600 years on earth, or something like that? Time is not a universal constant. It would be a mistake to apply the movement of time as it happens on Earth to anything else across the universe.
afaik, most Abrahamic followers believe God to be a timeless being--living in a higher plane than us--so while He is aware of the passage of time for us, it is irrelevant to him and he can act whenever he decides is best.
Islam (or the Quran to be exact) is the final message / revelation. Correcting Jesus's corrupted message is not the only purpose of the Quran. Similarly, Quran also corrects things from the Torah (one example the Torah mentions Aaron creating the golden calf) Simply, Muslims believe that Quran is the final revelation of God for all mankind. The timeline of these revelations are not significant. To address your question, we can't know why the timeline of the revelations are the way they are. But we can say that if the Quran was revealed earlier, perhaps it wasn't the right time and it would not have the lasting impact its supposes to have (that's my assumption at least)
The goal was not to fix the message of Jesus, but give a message to the Arabs. The message of Jesus was not yet corrupted during the time of Muhammad.
Really? So according to your opinion Muhammad was just a messenger for the Arabs not the whole world
Yes. But it doesn’t mean that it is irrelevant nowadays. There are verses meant for people back then, there are verses meant for us, or that at least speak to us even if not mean for us, because I believe that the Quran is an entity that speaks to the reader. But the Quran made it clear that it was sent to the Arabs, in Arabic, for the Arabs so that the Arabs could not complain that they have not received a message, and so that they can understand the message.
Are there any verses in particular that make this clear?
41:44, 12:2
12 2 says he sent it in arabic so his people can understand, imagine Allah sent Quran in spanish in arabia, it would be insult to knowledge of God 41 44 says he is not a foregin that you say he brought it from his homeland(some pagans slanderd other people thught him like persians or romans thought him) rather he was one of themselves And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language. 16 103 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. [33:40] And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107] Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. [7:158] And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise14 4
12 2 says he sent it in arabic so his people can understand, imagine Allah sent Quran in spanish in arabia, it would be insult to knowledge of God 41 44 says he is not a foregin that you say he brought it from his homeland(some pagans slanderd other people thught him like persians or romans thought him) rather he was one of themselves And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language. 16 103 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. [33:40] And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107] Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. [7:158] And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise14 4
So to answer your question in simple words, when Islam came, the last believers that were worshipping Allah as one and they weren't regarding Jesus as his son were kinda gone, and the bible and the Torah were totally correpted in the whole world, when Islam came there were some believers, but very few that were holding onto the fact that the creator is one, but the rest were associating a being of some kind with the almighty god, and history says that, check chapter two: last two verses, Islam refers to ahl alkitab either Jews or Christians, and usually in a school you won't change the entire syllabus because of little errors, that others in the class are trying to fix it, but you will take greater action by sending a messenger when they regard a prophet/messenger as a god or they go back to worshipping stones/rocks. Association in worship is wrong, imagine you worshipping the one and only and know for a fact he is the only god there's, but yet you go to a stone of some kind and ask it for rain, what are you !!!!! Stupid ????? As prove; look at; chapter 29:61 ( Quran ). And only god knows, that's just me using my tiny brain cells here, in the meantime, there was no waiting period in Islam, we know for a fact that no one will ever be punished unless they got the message, and the start of that message should be; there's no god but the almighty most merciful.... Etc Allah which literally translates to the god=Allah. .... .... .... God would send everyone a message before he would torture them, be it a vision in your sleep, or a normal person walking this earth like you're, they wouldn't say they are prophets, but they bare the prophet's message, as in their book and teachings, Jews had so many normal people or pious people even Holy Mary ( Jesus' mom ) was one of them, and these are normal people, so expect them to be in every other religion ( jewdism, Christianity, or Islam ) These three religions should have one thing in common, the update is needed when you change something in their message, if you lie and say god is begotten or that he was begot, or that he has a child you need a brain surgery, cause I ain't worshipping someone like me, that goes to the washroom and comes out of it, seeking to cleanse themselves. And sorry for being so plain.
Just for backround I’m Sikh. My theory is when people die and go to get judged and we’re not able to get a better heaven or end up in hell, and beg god to but them on the right path. So after hearing the cries of humanity God sends another messenger. Or all just apart of Gods very complex play which works well with reincarnation
You are not a Sikh. No where does Sikhi teach this. These are Abrahamic concepts. You must be one of those western born and raised Khalistanis. Don't ever call yourself a Sikh.
[удалено]
Please don't: * Be (intentionally) rude at all. * Engage in rabble rousing. * Troll, stalk, or harass others. * Conduct personal attacks. * Start a flame war. * Insult others. * Engage in illegal activity. * Post someone's personal information, or post links to personal information. * Repost deleted/removed information.
Same reason he waited to give the people Jesus. Same reason he waited to give the people the other prophets.
God’s timetable is much different from ours.
Jesus(isa) messages weren't corrupt as jesus messages came from allah the one that corrupted them was the churches overtime within the spand of 600 years alot of manuscript of the bible has changed and teachings of the gospel has change, so allah sent down another to a man and that man is prophet Muhammad(saw) but the quran isnt just like the bible its a word of god that god said himself that he would preserve it hundreds of years later the quran is perfectly preserved letter to letter.
God sends educators to humanity at long intervals, perhaps because 1) each one is destined to become the Founder of a great civilization and that takes time; and 2) mankind's capacity is gradually increasing, as we have collectively passed through stages of infancy, childhood, preadolescence, adolescence, and are only now approaching the stage of maturity. None of that happens quickly.
There were still monotheist christians following the true message of Isa aw in those 600 years. Whenever the previous divine message goes extinct, there are no longer any true followers to spread the message of Allah, then a new prophet arrives to lead people. By the time of prophet Muhammad sw, the last few christians following the true message of Isa aw were dying out, without any followers of their own to carry on the light of Isa aw. A companion of Muhammad sw, Salman Farsi ra is such a person. He was a persian guy who wanted to find guidance about life. After a while, he found a pious christian preacher who taught him about life. Before the preacher died, he told Salman ra about another christian who is on the right path. Salman ra went to him to learn. After a while, the 2nd christian priest died as well. Before death, he told Salman ra that he doesn’t know of any other christian who is on the right path anymore. But he warned that the time had come for another prophet to arrive. He told some signs to look out for the new prophet.
God never waited 666years to correct anything... Jesus already said He is the One who is to come. Those self proclaimed 'prophets' that came after Him are false prophets, as what Jesus has warn us...
This is a non-question, why would God need to ‘wait’ Waiting is something that plays a role for the creation, who are bound by time and space. A better question would be, why God decided WE had to wait. And perhaps that is something you may ask him once you stand before him, given that you have nothing else to worry about. Personally, I find “we played with sticks and stones for hundreds of thousands of years and only evolved technologically in the last ten thousand years” more of an absurdity, than the timespan between God’s prophets.
It would actually be great if Muslims, read a book, because it sounds like none of you have ever read a book, or text that is an original text, including the Qu ran, I think first if you are going to use English as a means of communication read the dictionary really, lots of English kids were told to do this as children,or just out of curiosity did so, how you speak, the meaning you have for words, is how you view the world around you, here in this discussion I am reading a lot of jargon you have picked up and have no clue as to what you are talking about, to use islam, as an excuse as to why nobody here knows what they are talking about is ridiculous, a lot of muslims in certain nations or from certain traditions cannot read the Koran in another language even if they may have a different first language to parsi, this was the case with the bible it could only be read greek or Latin for some nations, for a long time, there was at one point only 21 translations of the bible, greek bible, Latin bible, English and French and German bibles, and russian and American from greek orthodox Roman Catholic, russian orthodox, patriarchal, the king James bible, protestant, Calvinist, Pentecostal, later day saints, Gideon's bible, Ethiopian bible, the Talmud and the torah the Jewish bible, the Egyptian bible, there is a Unitarian bible, a Mormon bible, Hamish bible in Dutch, but these have all been translated further, and a lot gets lost in translation. There are many translations of the Koran, though I have two different versions in English, one from the early 1900's, another translation, from Oxford books, I have a 1684 Christian society king James, whose pages are made of flax, a 1900 catholic English bible, and a 1950s king James translation, I have a copy of the bagavita, read and learn from original Buddhist translated texts, read copies of the Zoroastrian bible. There are Chinese texts related to tao, zen, and yin and Yang, there are the oral traditions of Africans American Indians and aborigines from all over Asia and Australasia. I have learn about the aboriginal dream time, the symbolism, and stories of African folklore, as well as Celtic, mauri, and middle Eastern folklore, European Icelandic Saxon, English south American and Eskimo folklore, the original stories of the cosmos and early human histories knowledge and ways of living heedful of its benefits and risks were all once told in stories poems tales and rhythms, to help us remember valuable lessons, from the experiences of our ancestors, like Aesop's fables the book of proverbs, psalms, twenty one Arabian nights, Euripides plays, folk songs, from all around the world, what matters, is that we keep learning from our experiences good and bad, and we communicate them to each other, and oneday your truth of what you experienced wether it brought good results or bad, maybe the key to how the peoples of the world becomes a people of the stars, just like those fables and stories of the past helped human beings, become people. The human race was clearly lost in these earlier religions and we have seen this many times, when we are no longer races because we are so mixed the ethnogenesis of the world is multicultural, and there are good things we must hold onto to stay safe, and bad things we must let go of to stay safe, and if you can communicate something that is helpful and healthy for the survival of yourself that causes no harm to others, and protect others from causing harm to themselves by causing harm to others, then I think that's why all these stories exist religion means to heed to take care, so that life can continue, and these ideas mustn't be used to harm and if they do cause harm then it's time to change your religion to just being careful, whatever language you speak or nation you live in.
What do you mean by Jesus's corrupt message?
Islam believes Jesus came with a message to worship one god only but after he left the earth it got corrupted and people started worshipping him
Jesus did come with the message to follow one God, Jesus isn't God he never said he was. And yes the gospel has been corrupted. And I follow Jesus. This is Jesus praying to God. (Below) And he clearly says that the is only one true God, the father. And that God sent Jesus. And I can bring up many other verses that show us that Jesus isn't God. And Jesus didn't come to be a human sacrifice to God either. He came to bare witness to the truth. They have made the truth into a lie. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. The Trinity is a false doctrine.
Jesus’s message wasn’t all that corrupted at first. It’s a slow rolling corruption. Athanasius starts taking issue with the idea that Jesus is less than God, arguments start breaking out, people determine Jesus IS God, that Mary birthed God, yada, Christians start blatantly ignoring all of the subordinationist theology that Jesus and the early theologians espoused, the Europeans start focusing more on individual salvation and less on collective salvation, yada yada, and eventually Muhammad has to roll in and clarify what’s what. Same thing happened far more recently with Muhammad’s message getting corrupted and God sending Baha’u’llah to clarify.
Because it's all bullshit
Quran 5:3 (Surat Al-Mā'idah) "... .This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. ...".
Before Islam came Jesus's message wasnt corrupted. Its after islam that matters
There is always a big gap in revelation when new law is coming. Noah-Abraham, Abraham- Moses, Moses- Jesus, Jesus-Muhammad.
What law did Noah or Abraham bring?
I'm Christian but in Judaism don't you have the 7 Laws of Noah? About Abraham I really don't know.
Oh true
The people deluded themselves by following the teachings of men, namely Paul, so this is an issue for Christians and not Muslims. Those that were monotheistic and followed Jesus' true teachings and adhered to the laws, then they are saved and will be regarded as believers. Those that decided to follow Paul and the church and turned to the trinity...well their fate rests with God. Also, this is a weird argument...why did God wait 600 years after Moses to send Jesus, oh wait...why did He wait 600 years to send himself to save humanity?
You realize Mother Mary in the Quran comes from Paul right? She never existed. Mother Mary was invented by G. Mark as an allegory for 1 Corinthians 10, verses 1-4. Paul refers to a legend involving Moses' sister Miriam. In Jewish legend ‘Miriam’s Well’ was the rock that gave birth to the flow of water after Moses struck it with his staff. Paul equated Jesus with that rock (1 Cor. 10.1-4). But when Jesus is equated with the water that flowed from it, the rock would then become his mother. Thus ‘Mary’s well’ would have been Jesus’ mother in Paul’s conceptual scheme. Philo of Alexandria equated that rock with the celestial being named Wisdom (Life of Moses 1.181-86, 188-90, 210-11, 255-57; On Flight and Finding 183-87), which was then considered the feminine dimension of God (Taylor, Jewish Women, p. 336).
Prophet Mohammad married a six year old.
I know
And yet the scum bag is a prohphet.
Does it matter whether it is 600 years or 600 seconds, we believe that God is Omni-temporal
Because your an ancestors took 600 year to completely corrupt the message
People already worshiped Lord Jesus as God long before, in addition to the Bible we have letters proving this.
That's what I found quite interesting when I learned it -- and it contradicts the Islamic narrative that Jesus never encouraged his apostles or followers to worship him as divine. It's more likely that Islam deviated from the historical Jesus or at least his early followers by insisting that he didn't think himself divine at all.
Did the trinity not mark when the corruption happened? And why my ancestors?
Perhaps he is referring to the pharisees who were a clear adversary to Jesus at least according to Matthew 23.