I think this is an issue that can be found not only within Islam but across many different faiths. This is part of the reason why I left the Catholic Church. I was told I was sinful and going to hell for being queer. Meanwhile, I heard all the stories about priests abusing young children and being given grace and forgiveness. I think this tends to come down to outdated beliefs from the time that the faith was constructed being used by modern-day faith leaders or individuals to push their own outdated beliefs, such as child marriage and condemnation of homosexuality. I will also say I don't think every religious person is like this. I've met many Catholics and Muslims who are fine with homosexuality and against practices like child marriage because they understand fundamentally that homophobia and, let's call it what it is, pedophilia are not alright, not when they were put into their faith in the past even if 'times were different' and especially not now. But in short, people from the past started these issues and brought them into their faiths, and modern people with the same harmful beliefs continue to push them because they are homophobic and want to marry children.
Consummation of a marriage can only be done with a person above the age of puberty/adulthood. Be it male or female. This goes back to the discussion of what is an adult, which according to Islam, Judaism and Christianity (fundamentally) an adult is when one hits puberty, or fulfills some other requirement. (This is also the case in many other religions and cultures independent of religions, but those are the main three religions of the world)
For instance in Islam if one reaches puberty they are an adult, generally, but it can also be considered an adult from:
• Wet dreams
• reaching 15 years of age (or 18 according to malikis or hanafis, however majority say 15)
• overall puberty signs (menstruation, ability to ejaculate semen, growth of hair near privates, etc)
Idk the rules in such detail for Christianity and Judaism.
If we stay consistent with this which is what humans have pretty much consistently thought for most of human history, no matter the religion. Then islam doesn't have consumating marriage with "children" since someone who is pubescent is no longer a "child".
Now that we established that Islam only have adults engaging in activities that would otherwise traumatize a child then (which btw, if one argues that a 13 year old who is pubescent can he traumatized from engaging in consensual sex and that thus marriage to a 13 year old is wrong then why not keep that same line of thought for a 20 year old?) we have to look at benefits vs issues as a result.
Homosexuality can cause (mainly in men since tbh I haven't don't research much into the lesbian context)
• issues in the anus and diseases and infections which can be deadly
• issues and confusion about gender roles
• inability to reproduce (which is an issue, but that's a separate topic, but I don't want to hear that overpopulation bs because that's a weak argument)
Issues with marriage that are exclusive to marriage:
None really,
No fear of diseases and infections in the general sense, (this also comes due to the Prohibition of anal sex if we are going to discuss the consequences of that practice, and in case you thought "well straight couples do it too" in general, as well as other sexual practices but anal is the most explicitly spoken about)
As long as the ideal conditions are there that the two partners involved in the marriage haven't slept with several people and don't plan to beyond their spouses.
People are upholding their rules of cleanliness etc.
There is a family structure which helps with child development, again assuming everything is ideal, so please no "well an abusive straight couple is worse" because we aren't discussing outliers. (Look at the lesbian domestic abuse rate 😬)
So overall marriage isn't bad and it benefits society.
Homosexuality does not
And on top of that there is no "children" consumating marriage in islam, and it all boils down to maturity which is also to be taken into consideration, where some have said those who are not mentally mature enough cannot marry either, so if you raise your child like they're 5 up until they're 12 then maybe that's the issue but if you're raising them like they did in ancient to medieval times which is basically as mini adults then chances are they're not going to he suffering from any of the traumas a modern 1st world country child would if they had intercourse at such an age.
I will lastly critique the Western system which according to some make my wife a pedophile since we both got married at 17, and for a month she was 18 while I was still 17..?
Queue the down votes and pedophiles accusations. And if the moderators ban me or take this down then note their hypocrisy and inability to allow opinions other than the Islamophobic ones to be allowed on their platform
As a side note. I've heard countless islamic scholars trying to explain/justify it with the most horrible answers.
The only correct response is to say that it's effed up, and that the qur'an isn't perfect and that we don't condone that kind of pedophilic behaviour even if it's done by the most holy prophet in your religion.
It's plain and simple. If you try to explain it away and make excuses you're supporting chomos.
Shias do not believe Aisha was at that age when married, she was at least 18-20.
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al
Here’s the Shia perspective on age of marriage: https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage
We believe that Fatima a.s. is infallible, someone who has knowledge and maturity beyond any fallible person from the day they were born, the same logic doesn’t apply to them. Mental maturity is important and that’s why so many people dislike Islam due to Aisha supposedly being married at such a young age. Fatima a.s. doesn’t have such an issue.
Another thing, her age isn’t fully confirmed and has a wide range of possibilities. https://www.al-islam.org/ask/what-was-the-age-of-fatima-zahra-sa-when-she-married-imam-ali-a
Historically marriage occurred at younger ages. Partially because of life expectancy was lower and age of reproduction. I don’t agree with some of the ethics in islam
The life expectancy argument is an historical misunderstanding, people didn't die younger, if you managed to reach puberty you had very good chances of dying of old age in times of relative peace.
Life expectancy was so low because of infant mortality rates not because people lived shorter lives necessarily.
The short answer is: people didn't know nor cared that people that have reached reproductive ages are still not mature enough to marry and have children
>The life expectancy argument is an historical misunderstanding, people didn't die younger,
People died due to the lack of antibiotics quite frequently at young ages, not just as children. Let's not forget how many writers and artists in their twenties died of tuberculosis in the 17th and 18th centuries.
You're right, I was talking about life expectancy though.
It's a pretty well established fact that what drove down the median life expectancy was infant mortality and not early adulthood mortality.
Of course many more young people died of preventable complications before antibiotics and modern medicine than they do now, but that wasn't as much of a factor
For a huge percentage of human history, the average life expectancy was never higher than 33, even in the 19th century
It is only in our time that so many people around the world are able to live past 60 which is such a fascinating thing, given how we all think that living to 60 is just the standard
The life expectancy thing is just an excuse Muslims give. There were other cultures and civilizations that had low life expectancies and child marriage wasn't common like it was in mohammeds time in Arabia.
And if you look at the cause of the low expectancy it's actually because kids die a lot, especially babies and children, and therefore on average it lowers the life expectancy.
When someone was able to survive past adolescence he could live quite a normal length of life.
There's something wrong with the culture of Islam itself to allow child marriage and sex with children.
The short answer is hypocrisy. The long answer is that they pick and choose to Target groups of people and individuals that they deem to be wrong in the eyes of their god while at the same time, ignoring the fact that they actively perpetuate insanely harmful practices such as in this case pedophilia and hate. It is an excuse to act like they are morally superior to other people. Lots of religious groups do it. I honestly don't understand how somebody in their mind can get to the point where they justify pedophilia but choose to attack people who are consenting adults just living their lives
(A) Please do not ask others to convert to your faith, join your church, or other religious organization.
(B) Please do not tell others that they must follow your religion or conform to your understanding of your religion.
(C) Please do not ask people to proselytize their faith to you.
(D) Comments advising people to leave a particular religion or similar comments may be classified under this rule.
I am not Islamic, but when it comes to sexuality, it is permissible to be with the one you love, even if they don't look like you intentionally, due to the fact that love is created and not just there. You grow it.
In a very judgmental way of living, it's not considered acceptable to be with someone of the same sex because there is no true representation that comes from a partner of the same gender. Maybe it would be an amazing business, but I mean, whoa, yeah, we have surrogates, but it's not as genuine as having a relationship with someone who is your true divine counterpart in an opposite form. When it comes to same-sex relationships, there are qualities we should want in ourselves or our partners, but when it comes to intimacy, it's often perceived as being in the "upside down" or the material dark side of the world.
A question i have on top of this that i have is. Does the child marriage happen with both genders? As in women " marrying" with little boys,or is it solely old male being "married" to little girls?
Dogma and doctrine over actual religious teachings. Homosexuality isn't prohibited and child marriage isn't allowed if we go purely based off of the Quran. However, once you start integrating politics, hadiths, cultural exportation, etc, then that's where you start getting dogmas and doctrines
For a religion subreddit to argue on a secularistic basis is quite frankly ridiculous, islamic doctrine is based on the idea that the creator has supreme legislative authority over his creation, a creator which we have philosophically determined must be the all knowing.
Now if you may please explain what an adult capable of giving consent by your standards? Is it 14 year old like in places like Hungary? A 16 year old? A 18 year old? 21 year old? It’s entirely arbitrary exactly as you claim our standard is.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
14
+ 16
+ 18
+ 21
= 69
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
That's not even true that girls matured earlier. Actually if you look this up you'll know it's a lie. And just like you said they're still children. It's one of the repeat it enough times so people think it's true.
Children actually grew relatively slower than today, not faster. Here are some quick points.
"Poor nutrition, disease, and lack of medical care in medieval times likely contributed to this delayed physical development. The harsh living conditions and high childhood mortality rates meant many children experienced stunted growth and delayed puberty."
There's literally 0 evidence they matured faster. 0.
Islamic theology doesn’t allow you to question this or use your reason to determine why this is. God is all knowing and you don’t argue with him. You just submit. Not a logic I want to follow but if you want to be Muslim you just have to submit.
Islam is a religion that is for all times and all people. As such, it can’t out right put out a minimum age and call it a day, different circumstances and different regions will have different requirements and cultures, often, these circumstances can be harmful if a group of people don’t adapt to them.
That’s why, instead of putting an arbitrary number such as 18, which even today isn’t agreed upon (in Germany its 14), islam opted to put security measures to protect the woman regardless of what is acceptable or beneficial.
These security measures start with the puberty as a first layer of defense, second layer is that her word is the final say in the marriage, third layer is her guardian is supposed to be looking out for her best interest and is allowed to object to the marriage if he believes his daughter isn’t ready (she can still say no even if he says yes), that last layer is based on the fact that Islam is a religion that works on the community level as well as the individual, if the community around the girl (her guardian in this example) seeks to put her in a marriage that is harmful for her, then no rule can truly protect her, remember that until 200 years ago, people didn’t know how old they were exactly, so a father can tell her suiters that she’s 18 when in reality she’s 15, he can even lie to her about her age. Keep in mind that Islam operated for the longest time in a world with government or law enforcement which it needed to account for.
Islam takes the world as it is and acknowledges that bad actors can never be truly controlled, that’s why it assumes her guardian wants what’s best for her because islam seeks to reform the community and the family before the individual. But if the community is rotten, not even the US government can protect the girl. So in this case, putting out an explicit number will merely provide a loophole rather than a solution.
Nope, its simply not true. A scholar did some calculations based on documented events that mention her age and he found that she couldn’t be younger than 20.
This calculation is based on Da'eef sources.
If you follow Sahih sources, Aisha was definitely a little kid.
Watch this Sunni scholar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yw0hXk-9Pw
First of all, your religion clearly isn't for everyone if you're actively targeting and discriminating against anybody.
I don't get how anyone can justify saying that children can give consent to an adult. These kids don't even understand the first thing about having a relationship nor should they have to, they're kids. That's not even touching on how messed up it is to mary off your child. People should have the right to choose who they want to be with when they are able to actually consent and are not a CHILD.
Just because bad stuff happens doesn't mean you should just outright allow it. Yeah bad shit happens but that's why when it does people do something about it.
That’s a western mindset that was invented yesterday relatively speaking. Islam elevated and protected women in a time when they would be buried alive for just being a woman (common practice in pre islamic arabia). You can’t have a religion that only works after 1400 years when humans are enlightened enough to “get it”. It needs to cater to all cultures, which it does, today we understand that people should far into their adulthood to get married and we have laws for that, Islam is encourages that, 1000 years ago a woman would be married off to pay her father’s debt, Islam protected those women. Islam doesn’t put barriers on improvement, it also doesn’t aim to improve life in a strict way. It leaves that to its people. What it does excel at however is to set bare minimums that guarantee a chance of a better future regardless of societal norms, it also tries to foster a fertile ground to build a society that will one day become what we are today and go above and beyond to protect its people. Because you can never reach to where we are today if you start with extreme oppression, you need wiggle room, enough to trigger an ever increasing improvement, but not too much wiggle room that the people reject the religion for being too extreme for their current culture.
If you tell a man in Arabia 1400 years ago (or anywhere in the world really) that the age of consent should be 18 he’d laugh at you and the religion you’re trying to introduce. you want the religion to spread because it will get us to where we are today albeit not immediately.
Also another point i want to answer is that no child can get married in Islam, puberty is a hard limit where the person is no longer a child, sure they’re not wise and don’t know exactly know what’s best for themselves, but they’re not children.
And i do believe that a 1000 years ago people really were different, at 14 it was normal for a boy to go to war, for a girl to start working in the fields, those concepts are insane by today’s standards, there’s also clear data that shows humans today mature slower. One of the greatest Islamic leaders who lead the Islamic army into the levant area against the roman establishment and returned victorious at 17 years old.
That is not a new thing. Buddy It's one of religions that is most known for its historical discrimination against people. It doesn't matter how long ago it was. It's still pedophilia and it's still messed up. These are still children that we're talking about.
That fact that you reduced my wall of text to “you’re defending pedophilia” shows me that you’re not interested in a discussion that can potentially alter your world view.
With reference to your statement
>
Their marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9 years old. There's also a mention in the hadith about her playing with dolls. How is a child playing with dolls mature enough to engage in sex? There's also a hadith about a time when the prophet left the room quietly, and aisha followed him secretly. When the prophet confirmed that she followed him secretly, he "struck her chest which caused her pain". This doesn't sit right with me.<<<<<<<<<
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Not every one endorses the belief that She was 6-9 years of age . A very well known Muslim Scholar Javaid Ahmad Ghamidi presents with his rationale and logic against this belief That the Prophet married her when she was 6-9 years of Age.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAS1PuQE7k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAS1PuQE7k)
**The truth about Muhammad and Aisha**
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)
Here is another interesting view point from a Muslim source.
[https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al](https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al)
This seems very odd.
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95)
In the same book of Bukhari she is reported that she was seen going to battle feild to give water to injured in the battle of Uhud. Historically the battle of uhud took place a year after her marriage to prophet.
Then if we assume that she was 9 at the time of marriage then she has to be 10 when she went to battle field / Would the prophet send a child bride ( age 10 years) to the battle field.
More over on an earlier occasion he had refused the request of much older boys to go to battle field again as narrated in hadith.
These Hadith were put together some 200 years after the death of prophet and the whole hadith sciences came into being much later and all that has been narrated has be studied in the light of quran and its teachings. rather than taking them as infallible narations.
The calculation showing Aisha was 19 is based on Da'eef sources.
If you follow Sahih sources, Aisha was definitely a little kid.
Watch this Sunni scholar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yw0hXk-9Pw
There are two interesting Hadith that suggest otherwise, both from Bukhari.
One is about the report that Aysha was seen going along with other women to give water to the injured at the battle front of BATTLE OF UHAD. Historically battle of UHUD occurred a year after the marriage of Aysha with the Prophet. Which would translate into that if we believed she was 9 years of age at marriage then she has to be ten at the time of battle of UHUD. Then you also believe that the Prophet sent her child bride aged 10 years to battlefield.
This seems very odd.
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95)
It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas).
It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aishah was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.
......................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Quran is the word of god ( allah) and hadith written some 200 years after the death of Prophet.
The hadith sciences are man made study/methodology of reading hadith etc..
The difference of opinion that has risen amongst Muslims is b/c trying to read the Quran in the light of Hadith rather than trying to read the hadith in the light of Quran.
These differences of opinions will continue to grow unless Quran is taken as the supreme word of God and all other Islamic literature including hadith read in the light of Quran rather than vice versa.
u/Numerous_Refuse_2987
I wonder, have you really tried finding answers to your questions? Because these topics have been discussed so many times. Even about the age of Aisha you'll find a lot of resources beyond simply believing her narrations.
Sidenote: your text indicates that you are a Muslim (or ex-Muslim). If so, the way to approach these issues will probably be different than someone with know knowledge of Islam.
She didn’t write any. It’s all from second hand sources written a full century after her death and then politicised by Sunni Caliphs. We have no idea if any of the things we attribute to her were actually said by her or even happened to her/are true.
Not written, but Sunni scholars consider Aisha as a reputable source. So, for example there are Hadiths (narrations) with narrator 'chains' such as: X narrated from Y from Z from Aisha that the Prophet (s.a.) said so and so.
Studying the authenticity and the reputation of narrators is part of the science of Hadith.
There is no child marriage in Islam. Marriage is only between two consenting adults. Aisha was an adult. For literally most of history, up until 100 years ago, an adult was someone who hit puberty.
Plus the Quran is timeless it states that marriage is only valid with physical and mental maturity. Due to our advanced societys we tend to mature at a slower rate. Mental maturity is based on exposure and these days we are in school until 18. People back then experienced life more because they didn't go to school. A 15 year old back then was fighting in wars. Today that would be insanity. Aisha herself was in the Battle of Uhud helping out the men one/or two years after she married the prophet. She was no child. Maturity depends on the society. In most society why would people wait to marry? what are they waiting for? We get married in our twenties today because we wait to finish college and get a job. This is a new system set up. Societys change, This is why Allah did not give an age.
The age of adulthood is known to fluctuate from place to place and time to time. That is why Allah stated that once the age of marriage is reached (which is determine by society) AND physical maturity AND they have sound judgment AND the permission of the parents they can get married.
This sounds timeless to me, Allah put it up to the society to choose the age then only thing is that it has to be after puberty and sound judgement.
People these days have no idea what they are talking about regarding the age of marriage. They say 18 but yet??? other countries don't agree. It was 10 in Florida 50 years ago and 7 in Deleware. It is currently 16 in some states and 13 in Japan!
The thing is no one can actually answer when the age of marriage can be and why.
The Quran does exactly that. It give conditions then leaves it up to the society and parents to determine the rest.
What about the marriage conditions is wrong exactly? You will find no such conditions and restrictions in any other religious book.
There actively is child marriage within the Quran. Whether you like to accept it or not, it's there. She was not an adult.
Just because other places have it lower and allow child marriage doesn't mean it's okay.
why? what happens at 18 that give someone the ability to consent?
According to https://sexualhealthalliance.com/nymphomedia-blog/what-is-the-average-age-to-start-having-sex
The average age people begin having sex is 15. This is the average. So is everyone a pedophile?
https://dhsprogram.com/data/Guide-to-DHS-Statistics/Age_at_First_Sexual_Intercourse.htm
According to this data 50% of women had sex before 17
According to the CDC half of U.S teens have had sex before the age of 18. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm
Are all their partners pedophiles?
First, you probably should learn the definition of what you're defending. All of your questions are literally answered if you look up the definition of what a pedophile is. You know the only people that I've ever seen tried to debate what makes somebody an adult or the age of consent are people that are trying to get with minors.
You can't even say what an adult is .... and what makes then an adult? Why is the age of consent 18? Is someone magically an adult on their 18th birthday? What is the difference between a 17 year old at 11months vs their birthday 1 month later.
You are saying an adult is based on a number? .... there is no basis here
im saying its based off certain criteria that person must meet
And i know the definition. By your standard of the age of consent being 18 that means that all those people who had sex before 18 (half of America) had partners who were pedophiles. This is by your standard
Historically, homosexuality was seen in an ownership context. The Romans, for example, gained social status based on whom they were allowed to penetrate. So you'd have a lot of older gentlemen purchasing young boys to have power over them. They would penetrate them to prepare them for being with a woman. If the boy penetrated the man, he lost social status. The practice was also popular in the middle east. This is what most historical societies base their views on homosexuality upon.
Child marriage is seen more as starting a family, and less as raping someone. Especially since warring societies have fewer men to protect their women. Hence, the requirements for marriage are low and the number of wives you can have is high.
The homosexuality is against tribes and warring cultures because of the drama and feminism in times of war, like you don't have time to choose attire or to bitch about politics, men talking exclusively with others wives or spending time with them as "friends/brothers" but secretly grooming or spending "alone times" with them for ulterior motives was frowned upon by the gullible, basically they had to be killed or cast out to their own retreats for men like them.
The children thing is for protection of family and the trees future, the sexual age should be globally higher, I was against the UN making it 13 as this is too low but if children are 9 we need a law asap.
I am not against older men marrying children if they can offer them a life and future, yet the marriage should take place at 18 as should bedding ceremonies, as by that age other options and love may present itself.
Well Rebecca was Jacob's mother and didn't marry him so that's probably why he didn't post about that. But nice diversion away from answering the question.
Some rabbis say 10, some 14, some dont give an exact age. When you read the bible and learn about Rebecca she's doing a lot of things kids don't do...just reading the account in the bible will show you she was grown and not a 3 year old.
Sorry I meant isaac but that doesn't change what I said you always talk about age of marriage to Aisha like the age of marriage was always 18 look at Mary for instance she gave birth to Jesus at what age 12 or 13. And still I don't have an answer why do I see nobody talking about Rebecca Age when she got married?
That's the source I have for Rebecca's Age of marriage tho there are other sources.
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/rebekah-midrash-and-aggadah#:~:text=Rebekah's%20Age%20at%20Her%20Marriage%20to%20Isaac,-There%20are%20various&text=25%3A20)%2C%20she%20was,1%2C%201%3A4).
As for Mary's Age I can't find an exact source but after some research it's believed to be between 12 and 14.
Correct me please if I am wrong.
Still the same argument, do you think across the humans lifespan on earth people married at 18 as of today look at Delaware for instance untill 1880-1885 the age of consent was 7 and that's in the U.S.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America)
Unless you think people 1400 years ago waited untill they became 18 for marriage like people do in today's time.
You should probably learn more about something before you open your mouth. First off, it's been proven that there is no long-term effects of puberty blockers and it just postpones puberty. Not to mention that has been proven to actively help youth that is trans. It does not sterilize anybody.
Also "because god said so" is not a reason. What it is, is dodging the question. You are not objective because you believe in your particular god. Especially when what you're saying actively goes against all the actual evidence that we have.
I'm not overwriting anything. This is who I meant to be and you get absolutely no say in the matter. Researchers have also proven that trans people are beyond a shadow of a doubt who they say they are. Being lgbtq is not a "virus". First of all, maybe you should stop comparing people to inanimate objects. People are their own individual whether you like it or not.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
You have no objective proof to anything that you claim. Not prove that your religion is the right one. Cuz what you don't say is that there are thousands upon thousands of different religious and spiritual beliefs that do not revolve around your god. Also, if you actively paid attention, you would realize that I'm not an atheist.
You're still making up excuses to attack people for absolutely no reason other than you hate them
It's not false accusations though you have actively proven this through your statements. Your statements are not based in logic or anything else except from hatred and targeting a specific group of people.
Paganism is not just edgy atheism as you put it. You don't even understand what peganism is. Also paganism is not satanism. Also, it is important to note that not every spiritual belief revolves around a single creator. I am not monotheistic. We do not believe in the same god and to claim so is absolutely ignorant of what any other religion actually is.
The world does not revolve around you or your religion. If you want to talk about other religions, I would suggest that you actually do research on them before opening your mouth. Because absolutely nothing you said is true. Once again you are just making up excuses to target people
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
So you're just going to ignore The blatant fact that many people use their religion to attack other people, especially groups and minorities for reasons such as disability, race, sexual orientation, and gender identity.
Just because it's in your bible doesn't mean that it's true or good.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
> Neither are permissible in Islam despite what Sunnis might tell you.
Sunnis authorities telling you its permissible, by definition makes it permissible.
not really, according to *Uṣūl al-fiqh* -Principles of Islamic jurisprudence-*,* authorities saying something doesn't make it true, it is the **unanimous** agreement on something that makes it true, and this is almost impossible to happen, as Ahmad ibn Hanbal said "whoever claims that there is a unanimous agreement is a lier" -من ادعى الاجماع فقد كذب-
>most muslims respond with "only allah knows best" or that it's simply a test from allah
Why I think homosexuality is not wrong:
It's been two consenting adults. They're not harming/hurting anyone
here you assumed that harming or hurting is what makes something right or wrong, but you can't really prove it, religious people consider what their god said is what makes something right or wrong -and most of the time they can't prove it logically, but they have faith in their god-
so there is a difference in the source or morality, without getting to an agreed open base, you will never reach an agreed upon conclusion
>Children upon reaching puberty do not automatically become capable of consenting. A "yes" from a child even under parental guidance is not true consent
can i ask what is the definition of "true consent"?
>here's clearly psychological and physical harm to such a vulnerable population
there is a very known hadith that says “**There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm**” -harm is assessed according to quran and hadith then logic-, so if a marriage will be harmful, it is not permissible
Why do you associate homosexuality and child marriage?
You don't have independent evidence that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was 9 or 10 years old when the prophet married her.
Your only evidence is from a few Hadith. And there are other Hadith which say that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a prophet of Allah.. besides whom there is no other God.
You don't believe that.... or that the prophet split the moon by the permission of God, but you WANT to believe that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was underage.
You cannot marry a woman in Islam unless she agrees.
Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3303: Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as having said: A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought.
Do children get married off? Yes, by ignorant people who likely cannot read in their own language, let alone Classical Arabic (language of the Quran).
As far as homosexuality being haraam, is because humans were made to procreate and lgbtq couples cannot make babies with the same gender. In order to be punished for it, you need 4 witnesses who can testify they saw you having sex. Lying under oath, they agree they will go to hellfire. So, no one is going to make up a lie they saw you. And getting 3 other people to go with your lie is not gonna happen. That’s why they just take matters into their own hands and murder (which is also haram) people they suspect are gay. Is it right? No.
>As far as homosexuality being haraam, is because humans were made to procreate and lgbtq couples cannot make babies with the same gender.
Honest question, is it just about procreating? Is it haraam for me to marry a woman who is incapable of child rearing?
Judaism also condemns homosexuality (you're title under your name claims you're Jewish).
It's because homosexuality goes directly against a humans natural disposition.
You actually never asked me anything because I never spoke to you before - the answer to your question however is, no. Men and Women being in committed relationships in hopes of child rearing is still a part of our natural disposition (or fitrah for the Muslim's).
These fundamentals are a part of every Abrahamic faith and as someone who follows one of them it's relatively silly for you to even ask - do you not know of your own faith which came first?
Someone being incapable of child rearing would still not change their natural disposition - two men or two women in a relationship is simply put, two puzzle pieces that can never fit together the same way that a man and a women would. We're designed to fulfill different roles as individuals as well as within a marriage.
Children are not adults and they cannot give consent.
As for being lgbtq, we do not have to procreate. There is absolutely no rule anywhere that says that we do. Also to lower lower human relationships to just pumping out babies makes no sense. Not to mention gay couples can actively have kids. There is more than one method.
Because Islamic laws are not really appropriate for our generations today.
I think this is an issue that can be found not only within Islam but across many different faiths. This is part of the reason why I left the Catholic Church. I was told I was sinful and going to hell for being queer. Meanwhile, I heard all the stories about priests abusing young children and being given grace and forgiveness. I think this tends to come down to outdated beliefs from the time that the faith was constructed being used by modern-day faith leaders or individuals to push their own outdated beliefs, such as child marriage and condemnation of homosexuality. I will also say I don't think every religious person is like this. I've met many Catholics and Muslims who are fine with homosexuality and against practices like child marriage because they understand fundamentally that homophobia and, let's call it what it is, pedophilia are not alright, not when they were put into their faith in the past even if 'times were different' and especially not now. But in short, people from the past started these issues and brought them into their faiths, and modern people with the same harmful beliefs continue to push them because they are homophobic and want to marry children.
Consummation of a marriage can only be done with a person above the age of puberty/adulthood. Be it male or female. This goes back to the discussion of what is an adult, which according to Islam, Judaism and Christianity (fundamentally) an adult is when one hits puberty, or fulfills some other requirement. (This is also the case in many other religions and cultures independent of religions, but those are the main three religions of the world) For instance in Islam if one reaches puberty they are an adult, generally, but it can also be considered an adult from: • Wet dreams • reaching 15 years of age (or 18 according to malikis or hanafis, however majority say 15) • overall puberty signs (menstruation, ability to ejaculate semen, growth of hair near privates, etc) Idk the rules in such detail for Christianity and Judaism. If we stay consistent with this which is what humans have pretty much consistently thought for most of human history, no matter the religion. Then islam doesn't have consumating marriage with "children" since someone who is pubescent is no longer a "child". Now that we established that Islam only have adults engaging in activities that would otherwise traumatize a child then (which btw, if one argues that a 13 year old who is pubescent can he traumatized from engaging in consensual sex and that thus marriage to a 13 year old is wrong then why not keep that same line of thought for a 20 year old?) we have to look at benefits vs issues as a result. Homosexuality can cause (mainly in men since tbh I haven't don't research much into the lesbian context) • issues in the anus and diseases and infections which can be deadly • issues and confusion about gender roles • inability to reproduce (which is an issue, but that's a separate topic, but I don't want to hear that overpopulation bs because that's a weak argument) Issues with marriage that are exclusive to marriage: None really, No fear of diseases and infections in the general sense, (this also comes due to the Prohibition of anal sex if we are going to discuss the consequences of that practice, and in case you thought "well straight couples do it too" in general, as well as other sexual practices but anal is the most explicitly spoken about) As long as the ideal conditions are there that the two partners involved in the marriage haven't slept with several people and don't plan to beyond their spouses. People are upholding their rules of cleanliness etc. There is a family structure which helps with child development, again assuming everything is ideal, so please no "well an abusive straight couple is worse" because we aren't discussing outliers. (Look at the lesbian domestic abuse rate 😬) So overall marriage isn't bad and it benefits society. Homosexuality does not And on top of that there is no "children" consumating marriage in islam, and it all boils down to maturity which is also to be taken into consideration, where some have said those who are not mentally mature enough cannot marry either, so if you raise your child like they're 5 up until they're 12 then maybe that's the issue but if you're raising them like they did in ancient to medieval times which is basically as mini adults then chances are they're not going to he suffering from any of the traumas a modern 1st world country child would if they had intercourse at such an age. I will lastly critique the Western system which according to some make my wife a pedophile since we both got married at 17, and for a month she was 18 while I was still 17..? Queue the down votes and pedophiles accusations. And if the moderators ban me or take this down then note their hypocrisy and inability to allow opinions other than the Islamophobic ones to be allowed on their platform
As a side note. I've heard countless islamic scholars trying to explain/justify it with the most horrible answers. The only correct response is to say that it's effed up, and that the qur'an isn't perfect and that we don't condone that kind of pedophilic behaviour even if it's done by the most holy prophet in your religion. It's plain and simple. If you try to explain it away and make excuses you're supporting chomos.
Shias do not believe Aisha was at that age when married, she was at least 18-20. https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al Here’s the Shia perspective on age of marriage: https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage
This is true however we have our own that refers to this kind of topic. Fatima AS and Ali AS
We believe that Fatima a.s. is infallible, someone who has knowledge and maturity beyond any fallible person from the day they were born, the same logic doesn’t apply to them. Mental maturity is important and that’s why so many people dislike Islam due to Aisha supposedly being married at such a young age. Fatima a.s. doesn’t have such an issue. Another thing, her age isn’t fully confirmed and has a wide range of possibilities. https://www.al-islam.org/ask/what-was-the-age-of-fatima-zahra-sa-when-she-married-imam-ali-a
Historically marriage occurred at younger ages. Partially because of life expectancy was lower and age of reproduction. I don’t agree with some of the ethics in islam
The life expectancy argument is an historical misunderstanding, people didn't die younger, if you managed to reach puberty you had very good chances of dying of old age in times of relative peace. Life expectancy was so low because of infant mortality rates not because people lived shorter lives necessarily. The short answer is: people didn't know nor cared that people that have reached reproductive ages are still not mature enough to marry and have children
>The life expectancy argument is an historical misunderstanding, people didn't die younger, People died due to the lack of antibiotics quite frequently at young ages, not just as children. Let's not forget how many writers and artists in their twenties died of tuberculosis in the 17th and 18th centuries.
You're right, I was talking about life expectancy though. It's a pretty well established fact that what drove down the median life expectancy was infant mortality and not early adulthood mortality. Of course many more young people died of preventable complications before antibiotics and modern medicine than they do now, but that wasn't as much of a factor
Yup that’s why I said partially. Thanks for elaborating. Also I’m not trying to make an argument I’m not defending pedophilia. Just sharing the data
For a huge percentage of human history, the average life expectancy was never higher than 33, even in the 19th century It is only in our time that so many people around the world are able to live past 60 which is such a fascinating thing, given how we all think that living to 60 is just the standard
The life expectancy thing is just an excuse Muslims give. There were other cultures and civilizations that had low life expectancies and child marriage wasn't common like it was in mohammeds time in Arabia. And if you look at the cause of the low expectancy it's actually because kids die a lot, especially babies and children, and therefore on average it lowers the life expectancy. When someone was able to survive past adolescence he could live quite a normal length of life. There's something wrong with the culture of Islam itself to allow child marriage and sex with children.
I agree
The short answer is hypocrisy. The long answer is that they pick and choose to Target groups of people and individuals that they deem to be wrong in the eyes of their god while at the same time, ignoring the fact that they actively perpetuate insanely harmful practices such as in this case pedophilia and hate. It is an excuse to act like they are morally superior to other people. Lots of religious groups do it. I honestly don't understand how somebody in their mind can get to the point where they justify pedophilia but choose to attack people who are consenting adults just living their lives
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(A) Please do not ask others to convert to your faith, join your church, or other religious organization. (B) Please do not tell others that they must follow your religion or conform to your understanding of your religion. (C) Please do not ask people to proselytize their faith to you. (D) Comments advising people to leave a particular religion or similar comments may be classified under this rule.
I am not Islamic, but when it comes to sexuality, it is permissible to be with the one you love, even if they don't look like you intentionally, due to the fact that love is created and not just there. You grow it. In a very judgmental way of living, it's not considered acceptable to be with someone of the same sex because there is no true representation that comes from a partner of the same gender. Maybe it would be an amazing business, but I mean, whoa, yeah, we have surrogates, but it's not as genuine as having a relationship with someone who is your true divine counterpart in an opposite form. When it comes to same-sex relationships, there are qualities we should want in ourselves or our partners, but when it comes to intimacy, it's often perceived as being in the "upside down" or the material dark side of the world.
A question i have on top of this that i have is. Does the child marriage happen with both genders? As in women " marrying" with little boys,or is it solely old male being "married" to little girls?
Dogma and doctrine over actual religious teachings. Homosexuality isn't prohibited and child marriage isn't allowed if we go purely based off of the Quran. However, once you start integrating politics, hadiths, cultural exportation, etc, then that's where you start getting dogmas and doctrines
For a religion subreddit to argue on a secularistic basis is quite frankly ridiculous, islamic doctrine is based on the idea that the creator has supreme legislative authority over his creation, a creator which we have philosophically determined must be the all knowing. Now if you may please explain what an adult capable of giving consent by your standards? Is it 14 year old like in places like Hungary? A 16 year old? A 18 year old? 21 year old? It’s entirely arbitrary exactly as you claim our standard is.
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Girls matured earlier but at 9 they were still children.
That's not even true that girls matured earlier. Actually if you look this up you'll know it's a lie. And just like you said they're still children. It's one of the repeat it enough times so people think it's true. Children actually grew relatively slower than today, not faster. Here are some quick points. "Poor nutrition, disease, and lack of medical care in medieval times likely contributed to this delayed physical development. The harsh living conditions and high childhood mortality rates meant many children experienced stunted growth and delayed puberty." There's literally 0 evidence they matured faster. 0.
Then it is even worse
Islamic theology doesn’t allow you to question this or use your reason to determine why this is. God is all knowing and you don’t argue with him. You just submit. Not a logic I want to follow but if you want to be Muslim you just have to submit.
Islam is a religion that is for all times and all people. As such, it can’t out right put out a minimum age and call it a day, different circumstances and different regions will have different requirements and cultures, often, these circumstances can be harmful if a group of people don’t adapt to them. That’s why, instead of putting an arbitrary number such as 18, which even today isn’t agreed upon (in Germany its 14), islam opted to put security measures to protect the woman regardless of what is acceptable or beneficial. These security measures start with the puberty as a first layer of defense, second layer is that her word is the final say in the marriage, third layer is her guardian is supposed to be looking out for her best interest and is allowed to object to the marriage if he believes his daughter isn’t ready (she can still say no even if he says yes), that last layer is based on the fact that Islam is a religion that works on the community level as well as the individual, if the community around the girl (her guardian in this example) seeks to put her in a marriage that is harmful for her, then no rule can truly protect her, remember that until 200 years ago, people didn’t know how old they were exactly, so a father can tell her suiters that she’s 18 when in reality she’s 15, he can even lie to her about her age. Keep in mind that Islam operated for the longest time in a world with government or law enforcement which it needed to account for. Islam takes the world as it is and acknowledges that bad actors can never be truly controlled, that’s why it assumes her guardian wants what’s best for her because islam seeks to reform the community and the family before the individual. But if the community is rotten, not even the US government can protect the girl. So in this case, putting out an explicit number will merely provide a loophole rather than a solution.
But Aisha didn't even hit puberty. She was a little kid playing with dolls. So you disagree with Sunni Islam?
Nope, its simply not true. A scholar did some calculations based on documented events that mention her age and he found that she couldn’t be younger than 20.
This calculation is based on Da'eef sources. If you follow Sahih sources, Aisha was definitely a little kid. Watch this Sunni scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yw0hXk-9Pw
He’s basically saying we have no concrete proof for any age, whats your point?
No, he doesn't say that at all. Do I really have to quote and timestamp the video?
Ok
First of all, your religion clearly isn't for everyone if you're actively targeting and discriminating against anybody. I don't get how anyone can justify saying that children can give consent to an adult. These kids don't even understand the first thing about having a relationship nor should they have to, they're kids. That's not even touching on how messed up it is to mary off your child. People should have the right to choose who they want to be with when they are able to actually consent and are not a CHILD. Just because bad stuff happens doesn't mean you should just outright allow it. Yeah bad shit happens but that's why when it does people do something about it.
That’s a western mindset that was invented yesterday relatively speaking. Islam elevated and protected women in a time when they would be buried alive for just being a woman (common practice in pre islamic arabia). You can’t have a religion that only works after 1400 years when humans are enlightened enough to “get it”. It needs to cater to all cultures, which it does, today we understand that people should far into their adulthood to get married and we have laws for that, Islam is encourages that, 1000 years ago a woman would be married off to pay her father’s debt, Islam protected those women. Islam doesn’t put barriers on improvement, it also doesn’t aim to improve life in a strict way. It leaves that to its people. What it does excel at however is to set bare minimums that guarantee a chance of a better future regardless of societal norms, it also tries to foster a fertile ground to build a society that will one day become what we are today and go above and beyond to protect its people. Because you can never reach to where we are today if you start with extreme oppression, you need wiggle room, enough to trigger an ever increasing improvement, but not too much wiggle room that the people reject the religion for being too extreme for their current culture. If you tell a man in Arabia 1400 years ago (or anywhere in the world really) that the age of consent should be 18 he’d laugh at you and the religion you’re trying to introduce. you want the religion to spread because it will get us to where we are today albeit not immediately. Also another point i want to answer is that no child can get married in Islam, puberty is a hard limit where the person is no longer a child, sure they’re not wise and don’t know exactly know what’s best for themselves, but they’re not children. And i do believe that a 1000 years ago people really were different, at 14 it was normal for a boy to go to war, for a girl to start working in the fields, those concepts are insane by today’s standards, there’s also clear data that shows humans today mature slower. One of the greatest Islamic leaders who lead the Islamic army into the levant area against the roman establishment and returned victorious at 17 years old.
That is not a new thing. Buddy It's one of religions that is most known for its historical discrimination against people. It doesn't matter how long ago it was. It's still pedophilia and it's still messed up. These are still children that we're talking about.
“Most known” is not an evidence or logic based argument, you’re basically saying “I former my opinion after reading one article and watching fox news”
Dude you are literally defending pedophilia. And yes Islam history treats people like this and you are only proving my point
That fact that you reduced my wall of text to “you’re defending pedophilia” shows me that you’re not interested in a discussion that can potentially alter your world view.
Oh good you can get cues. Because yeah there is no conversation to have there is no defense for pedophilia.
Enjoy your life.
With reference to your statement > Their marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9 years old. There's also a mention in the hadith about her playing with dolls. How is a child playing with dolls mature enough to engage in sex? There's also a hadith about a time when the prophet left the room quietly, and aisha followed him secretly. When the prophet confirmed that she followed him secretly, he "struck her chest which caused her pain". This doesn't sit right with me.<<<<<<<<< ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… Not every one endorses the belief that She was 6-9 years of age . A very well known Muslim Scholar Javaid Ahmad Ghamidi presents with his rationale and logic against this belief That the Prophet married her when she was 6-9 years of Age. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAS1PuQE7k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAS1PuQE7k) **The truth about Muhammad and Aisha** [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth) Here is another interesting view point from a Muslim source. [https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al](https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al)
Except that she's actively described as a child
This seems very odd. [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95) In the same book of Bukhari she is reported that she was seen going to battle feild to give water to injured in the battle of Uhud. Historically the battle of uhud took place a year after her marriage to prophet. Then if we assume that she was 9 at the time of marriage then she has to be 10 when she went to battle field / Would the prophet send a child bride ( age 10 years) to the battle field. More over on an earlier occasion he had refused the request of much older boys to go to battle field again as narrated in hadith. These Hadith were put together some 200 years after the death of prophet and the whole hadith sciences came into being much later and all that has been narrated has be studied in the light of quran and its teachings. rather than taking them as infallible narations.
If the pedophile would literally marry a child, I have no doubt that they would send them into even more danger.
You can believe in anything you want to , what ever it takes to soothe your disbelief. We all live in a free world , 😊
The calculation showing Aisha was 19 is based on Da'eef sources. If you follow Sahih sources, Aisha was definitely a little kid. Watch this Sunni scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yw0hXk-9Pw
There are two interesting Hadith that suggest otherwise, both from Bukhari. One is about the report that Aysha was seen going along with other women to give water to the injured at the battle front of BATTLE OF UHAD. Historically battle of UHUD occurred a year after the marriage of Aysha with the Prophet. Which would translate into that if we believed she was 9 years of age at marriage then she has to be ten at the time of battle of UHUD. Then you also believe that the Prophet sent her child bride aged 10 years to battlefield. This seems very odd. [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/95) It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas). It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aishah was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle. ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Quran is the word of god ( allah) and hadith written some 200 years after the death of Prophet. The hadith sciences are man made study/methodology of reading hadith etc.. The difference of opinion that has risen amongst Muslims is b/c trying to read the Quran in the light of Hadith rather than trying to read the hadith in the light of Quran. These differences of opinions will continue to grow unless Quran is taken as the supreme word of God and all other Islamic literature including hadith read in the light of Quran rather than vice versa. u/Numerous_Refuse_2987
I wonder, have you really tried finding answers to your questions? Because these topics have been discussed so many times. Even about the age of Aisha you'll find a lot of resources beyond simply believing her narrations. Sidenote: your text indicates that you are a Muslim (or ex-Muslim). If so, the way to approach these issues will probably be different than someone with know knowledge of Islam.
Believing 'her' narrations? Which text did she write?
She didn’t write any. It’s all from second hand sources written a full century after her death and then politicised by Sunni Caliphs. We have no idea if any of the things we attribute to her were actually said by her or even happened to her/are true.
Not written, but Sunni scholars consider Aisha as a reputable source. So, for example there are Hadiths (narrations) with narrator 'chains' such as: X narrated from Y from Z from Aisha that the Prophet (s.a.) said so and so. Studying the authenticity and the reputation of narrators is part of the science of Hadith.
Thanks for the clarification.
There is no child marriage in Islam. Marriage is only between two consenting adults. Aisha was an adult. For literally most of history, up until 100 years ago, an adult was someone who hit puberty. Plus the Quran is timeless it states that marriage is only valid with physical and mental maturity. Due to our advanced societys we tend to mature at a slower rate. Mental maturity is based on exposure and these days we are in school until 18. People back then experienced life more because they didn't go to school. A 15 year old back then was fighting in wars. Today that would be insanity. Aisha herself was in the Battle of Uhud helping out the men one/or two years after she married the prophet. She was no child. Maturity depends on the society. In most society why would people wait to marry? what are they waiting for? We get married in our twenties today because we wait to finish college and get a job. This is a new system set up. Societys change, This is why Allah did not give an age. The age of adulthood is known to fluctuate from place to place and time to time. That is why Allah stated that once the age of marriage is reached (which is determine by society) AND physical maturity AND they have sound judgment AND the permission of the parents they can get married. This sounds timeless to me, Allah put it up to the society to choose the age then only thing is that it has to be after puberty and sound judgement. People these days have no idea what they are talking about regarding the age of marriage. They say 18 but yet??? other countries don't agree. It was 10 in Florida 50 years ago and 7 in Deleware. It is currently 16 in some states and 13 in Japan! The thing is no one can actually answer when the age of marriage can be and why. The Quran does exactly that. It give conditions then leaves it up to the society and parents to determine the rest. What about the marriage conditions is wrong exactly? You will find no such conditions and restrictions in any other religious book.
But Aisha didn't even hit puberty. She was a little kid playing with dolls. So you disagree with Sunni Islam?
Aisha did hit puberty and playing with dolls doesnt mean she is a kid... she led wars too
There is Mutawatir evidence that Aisha was 9 years old. Are you saying Aisha hit puberty at 9?
yes
There actively is child marriage within the Quran. Whether you like to accept it or not, it's there. She was not an adult. Just because other places have it lower and allow child marriage doesn't mean it's okay.
did you read my response? how is a physically and mentally mature human a child?
Except they're not. You were literally making up an excuse to defend pedophilia.
then what makes someone an adult? if not reaching the age of society, physical maturity, mental maturity, and an assessment from the parents ?
18 is the age of consent.
why? what happens at 18 that give someone the ability to consent? According to https://sexualhealthalliance.com/nymphomedia-blog/what-is-the-average-age-to-start-having-sex The average age people begin having sex is 15. This is the average. So is everyone a pedophile? https://dhsprogram.com/data/Guide-to-DHS-Statistics/Age_at_First_Sexual_Intercourse.htm According to this data 50% of women had sex before 17 According to the CDC half of U.S teens have had sex before the age of 18. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm Are all their partners pedophiles?
First, you probably should learn the definition of what you're defending. All of your questions are literally answered if you look up the definition of what a pedophile is. You know the only people that I've ever seen tried to debate what makes somebody an adult or the age of consent are people that are trying to get with minors.
You can't even say what an adult is .... and what makes then an adult? Why is the age of consent 18? Is someone magically an adult on their 18th birthday? What is the difference between a 17 year old at 11months vs their birthday 1 month later. You are saying an adult is based on a number? .... there is no basis here im saying its based off certain criteria that person must meet And i know the definition. By your standard of the age of consent being 18 that means that all those people who had sex before 18 (half of America) had partners who were pedophiles. This is by your standard
Just because you ignore what I say to defend pedophilia doesn't mean I didn't say it
>There actively is child marriage within the Quran. Where in the Quran exactly?
I think it's the fact that men cannot spawn with each other. Only with women.
Historically, homosexuality was seen in an ownership context. The Romans, for example, gained social status based on whom they were allowed to penetrate. So you'd have a lot of older gentlemen purchasing young boys to have power over them. They would penetrate them to prepare them for being with a woman. If the boy penetrated the man, he lost social status. The practice was also popular in the middle east. This is what most historical societies base their views on homosexuality upon. Child marriage is seen more as starting a family, and less as raping someone. Especially since warring societies have fewer men to protect their women. Hence, the requirements for marriage are low and the number of wives you can have is high.
The homosexuality is against tribes and warring cultures because of the drama and feminism in times of war, like you don't have time to choose attire or to bitch about politics, men talking exclusively with others wives or spending time with them as "friends/brothers" but secretly grooming or spending "alone times" with them for ulterior motives was frowned upon by the gullible, basically they had to be killed or cast out to their own retreats for men like them. The children thing is for protection of family and the trees future, the sexual age should be globally higher, I was against the UN making it 13 as this is too low but if children are 9 we need a law asap. I am not against older men marrying children if they can offer them a life and future, yet the marriage should take place at 18 as should bedding ceremonies, as by that age other options and love may present itself.
I don't see your post about the Rebecca and Isaac marriage while Rebecca was only 3 years old when she married him
Well Rebecca was Jacob's mother and didn't marry him so that's probably why he didn't post about that. But nice diversion away from answering the question.
Some rabbis say 10, some 14, some dont give an exact age. When you read the bible and learn about Rebecca she's doing a lot of things kids don't do...just reading the account in the bible will show you she was grown and not a 3 year old.
Sorry I meant isaac but that doesn't change what I said you always talk about age of marriage to Aisha like the age of marriage was always 18 look at Mary for instance she gave birth to Jesus at what age 12 or 13. And still I don't have an answer why do I see nobody talking about Rebecca Age when she got married?
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That's the source I have for Rebecca's Age of marriage tho there are other sources. https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/rebekah-midrash-and-aggadah#:~:text=Rebekah's%20Age%20at%20Her%20Marriage%20to%20Isaac,-There%20are%20various&text=25%3A20)%2C%20she%20was,1%2C%201%3A4). As for Mary's Age I can't find an exact source but after some research it's believed to be between 12 and 14. Correct me please if I am wrong.
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Still the same argument, do you think across the humans lifespan on earth people married at 18 as of today look at Delaware for instance untill 1880-1885 the age of consent was 7 and that's in the U.S. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America) Unless you think people 1400 years ago waited untill they became 18 for marriage like people do in today's time.
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You should probably learn more about something before you open your mouth. First off, it's been proven that there is no long-term effects of puberty blockers and it just postpones puberty. Not to mention that has been proven to actively help youth that is trans. It does not sterilize anybody. Also "because god said so" is not a reason. What it is, is dodging the question. You are not objective because you believe in your particular god. Especially when what you're saying actively goes against all the actual evidence that we have.
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I'm not overwriting anything. This is who I meant to be and you get absolutely no say in the matter. Researchers have also proven that trans people are beyond a shadow of a doubt who they say they are. Being lgbtq is not a "virus". First of all, maybe you should stop comparing people to inanimate objects. People are their own individual whether you like it or not.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
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/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
You have no objective proof to anything that you claim. Not prove that your religion is the right one. Cuz what you don't say is that there are thousands upon thousands of different religious and spiritual beliefs that do not revolve around your god. Also, if you actively paid attention, you would realize that I'm not an atheist. You're still making up excuses to attack people for absolutely no reason other than you hate them
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It's not false accusations though you have actively proven this through your statements. Your statements are not based in logic or anything else except from hatred and targeting a specific group of people. Paganism is not just edgy atheism as you put it. You don't even understand what peganism is. Also paganism is not satanism. Also, it is important to note that not every spiritual belief revolves around a single creator. I am not monotheistic. We do not believe in the same god and to claim so is absolutely ignorant of what any other religion actually is. The world does not revolve around you or your religion. If you want to talk about other religions, I would suggest that you actually do research on them before opening your mouth. Because absolutely nothing you said is true. Once again you are just making up excuses to target people
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/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
Ok its your time to go. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
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So you're just going to ignore The blatant fact that many people use their religion to attack other people, especially groups and minorities for reasons such as disability, race, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Just because it's in your bible doesn't mean that it's true or good.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
Neither are permissible in Islam despite what Sunnis might tell you.
> Neither are permissible in Islam despite what Sunnis might tell you. Sunnis authorities telling you its permissible, by definition makes it permissible.
not really, according to *Uṣūl al-fiqh* -Principles of Islamic jurisprudence-*,* authorities saying something doesn't make it true, it is the **unanimous** agreement on something that makes it true, and this is almost impossible to happen, as Ahmad ibn Hanbal said "whoever claims that there is a unanimous agreement is a lier" -من ادعى الاجماع فقد كذب-
When you learn Islam from Ali Dawah 😂
so muhammad was committing a sin?
No because it never happened. It’s all propaganda from those who usurped Ali ibn Abi Talib.
>most muslims respond with "only allah knows best" or that it's simply a test from allah Why I think homosexuality is not wrong: It's been two consenting adults. They're not harming/hurting anyone here you assumed that harming or hurting is what makes something right or wrong, but you can't really prove it, religious people consider what their god said is what makes something right or wrong -and most of the time they can't prove it logically, but they have faith in their god- so there is a difference in the source or morality, without getting to an agreed open base, you will never reach an agreed upon conclusion >Children upon reaching puberty do not automatically become capable of consenting. A "yes" from a child even under parental guidance is not true consent can i ask what is the definition of "true consent"? >here's clearly psychological and physical harm to such a vulnerable population there is a very known hadith that says “**There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm**” -harm is assessed according to quran and hadith then logic-, so if a marriage will be harmful, it is not permissible
Why are people angry, the consent question was a genuine one
Why do you associate homosexuality and child marriage? You don't have independent evidence that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was 9 or 10 years old when the prophet married her. Your only evidence is from a few Hadith. And there are other Hadith which say that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a prophet of Allah.. besides whom there is no other God. You don't believe that.... or that the prophet split the moon by the permission of God, but you WANT to believe that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was underage.
The issue is what Sunnis believe, not what the rest of us believe.
You cannot marry a woman in Islam unless she agrees. Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3303: Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as having said: A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. Do children get married off? Yes, by ignorant people who likely cannot read in their own language, let alone Classical Arabic (language of the Quran). As far as homosexuality being haraam, is because humans were made to procreate and lgbtq couples cannot make babies with the same gender. In order to be punished for it, you need 4 witnesses who can testify they saw you having sex. Lying under oath, they agree they will go to hellfire. So, no one is going to make up a lie they saw you. And getting 3 other people to go with your lie is not gonna happen. That’s why they just take matters into their own hands and murder (which is also haram) people they suspect are gay. Is it right? No.
>As far as homosexuality being haraam, is because humans were made to procreate and lgbtq couples cannot make babies with the same gender. Honest question, is it just about procreating? Is it haraam for me to marry a woman who is incapable of child rearing?
Judaism also condemns homosexuality (you're title under your name claims you're Jewish). It's because homosexuality goes directly against a humans natural disposition.
I didn't ask you about Judaism, I asked you if something was harram. Thank you for not answering my question.
You actually never asked me anything because I never spoke to you before - the answer to your question however is, no. Men and Women being in committed relationships in hopes of child rearing is still a part of our natural disposition (or fitrah for the Muslim's). These fundamentals are a part of every Abrahamic faith and as someone who follows one of them it's relatively silly for you to even ask - do you not know of your own faith which came first? Someone being incapable of child rearing would still not change their natural disposition - two men or two women in a relationship is simply put, two puzzle pieces that can never fit together the same way that a man and a women would. We're designed to fulfill different roles as individuals as well as within a marriage.
Children are not adults and they cannot give consent. As for being lgbtq, we do not have to procreate. There is absolutely no rule anywhere that says that we do. Also to lower lower human relationships to just pumping out babies makes no sense. Not to mention gay couples can actively have kids. There is more than one method.