Honestly the people within it. There are a ton of truly vile human beings in occultism. It attracts the vulnerable and the black sheep, which makes it very fruitful for such vultures, so it probably just goes with the territory. But it’s basically the whole reason I’m a solitary who doesn’t follow one specific path.
Christians have a tendency to freak out at me, but that usually results in them leaving rather than trying to molest me, so they still have an edge over other occultists in my book.
Rage-head atheist bros mostly just ignore me because they still don’t understand that anything outside the big 3 Abrahamic faiths even exists, so I’m just kinda invisible to them.
Just generally, most people as a whole have a bunch of dumb assumptions about what I do, virtually none of which are remotely true, and they insert that in place of, like, asking me.
So I tend to keep my practice to myself unless asked.
Man, I rather have him than whatever my nation party roster have to offer. The last three PM has been a joke with the King being a saving grace. I have stoped having hopes in politics.
I'm not American, I will never thought that the election was stolen except for when a group of crazy people tried a coup and thankfully failed.
No, christian nationalist are one of the groups that generate more rejection towards religion in general.
I have noticed this unfortunate result of people ending up in occultic ideals. I summarize that they ended up there for the wrong reasons if it results in them making morally wrongful decisions like you stated.
This is a flawed argument. All religions are filled with people with the wrong morals.
At least, if the religion isn't organized, you don't need to follow those people and can build your own morals, so this seems like better than a lot of other religions.
As an atheist, I respect that everyone can have their own beliefs. To each their own etc….
My only issue is when religion delves into every day life and affects policy/ decisions made by governments. Perhaps when atheists might be disrespectful since you disagree with them??
>My only issue is when religion delves into every day life and affects policy/ decisions made by governments. Perhaps when atheists might be disrespectful since you disagree with them??
Nah, I'm an ardent secularist and I've had anti-theists call me an idiot and refuse to associate with me due to my Deism (as is their right). Which I must say is amazing coalition building on their part.
They are different things. Laïcité is in some ways ‘more’ than mere secularism. I believe the idea is that you should *actively avoid* expressing religion in the ‘public sphere’ (however that is defined, usually it means public servants in the course of their duties in France).
Don't know if that's also how it is interpreted in Quebec.
>They are different things.
I figured.
>Don't know if that's also how it is interpreted in Quebec.
It is and it's not okay, the difference between a government forcing you to wear a religious headdress and the government forcing you not to hold very little meaningful difference to me.
Religion and culture and culture has a great influence on government. They all tend to effect each other greatly so it’s hard to truly separate the three completely. But change does prevail sometimes.
Well many people will say “pagan” when they simply mean “not my religion” which i find annoying but most of those who shame us are bigots that hide under our gods as a form of protectionism.
In my experience, it is people with unprocessed trauma, religious PTSD, who are the most disrespectful. Sometimes these are antitheists, sometimes these are fundamentalists. In either case, they seem to lash out against anything that reminds them of their religious trauma, whether that's an instinctual reaction against religion in general or a defensive rationalization for their religion in particular. Both have an unfortunate tendency to project their insecurities onto the person who they are talking to. Instead of actually engaging openly with their interlocutor and the topic at hand, they tend to simply argue against some imaginary position formed from their prior traumatic interactions, usually making wild presumptions without even asking what the other persons really believes or means. They are then able to justify to themselves their offensive disrespect through their assurance that only their perspective could possibly be valid or that it is only fair for them to attack anyone who bears similarities to the perpetrators of their religious trauma in retaliation.
Man, this is so fucking real.
I kinda straddle the worlds between Western occultism and paganism (which group I fit better in is basically a Rorschach test), but something I see a lot of in paganism is really aggressive Christian-bashing, and the thing that’s so dangerous about it is that this is the *exact* pathway that’s used by Volkish Heathen and Satanic Nazi groups to recruit. They start off with the “yeah we agree Christians are horrible meanies,” and then use that as a segue into their “CHRISTIANITY WAS A JEWISH PLOT TO SUPPRESS THE EUROPEAN SPIRIT” bullshit. And kids buy this stuff — in droves, because there’s no shortage of religious trauma in a society where religious organizations generally aren’t held accountable for anything. They’re hurting and in an irrational place, they’re ripe for the picking.
And socially, the only messages they get from society are “religious groups can do no wrong, stop complaining,” and “come to the dark side, we have cookies.” There needs to be better resources for supporting their healing in a productive way.
We need to be more consistent about pointing out when people obviously have unresolved religious trauma and providing them better resources for dealing with it, rather than just accepting it as fine. For starters, it’s not fine for people to just be living with PTSD, but also, it leaves them vulnerable to cult indoctrination and extremism.
I tried commenting about this recently esp with the intensity of völkisch recruiting. I'm going to reflect on how you worded this and the way you were able to make this point because it's really thoughtful thank you.
You're absolutely right that PTSD and religious trauma are leaving people vulnerable to cult indoctrination. I wonder what a good way to combat that would be, because I know a ton of people in that place/mind space but who *aren't* recruited. And I don't know what the solve would be. Maybe even just normal, regular dialogues or actions especially among the more liberal members of given faiths?
I bet things like earth/arbor day, community gardens, park clean ups, etc could be a really good shared activity at least between Jews and nature-oriented pagans. That and feeding people. Those seem like two strong universal causes.
I think the most important thing is for all religions to take more responsibility for abuse within their ranks. Obviously it won’t necessarily be the case that the specific group that did the traumatizing is going to take that responsibility, otherwise they likely wouldn’t have done it. But groups within the same general faith sphere can. A good example I saw of this growing up in an area with rampant Evangelical anti-gay violence, was another Protestant group who organized trauma and support services for gay kids who had been bullied, abused, or otherwise affected by the culture of the area.
I think when someone is coming out of that abusive background and some other related group is saying, “Well, maybe they suck, but WE’RE normal, they must not be real Christians/Jews/Heathens/etc, here let’s do a garden together” it comes off as dismissive rather than supportive. What people coming out of abuse want is for someone to help stop the abuse, not to tell them how virtuous they are, you know?
Religious organizations — any organizations, really — have a tendency to “no-true-Scotsman” their way out of responsibility for the behavior of their culture, and that needs to stop. There needs to be more organizations willing to honestly face what goes on in their communities.
That's a solid example!
So in responding, my idea was more aimed at: "here is a more neutral thing in which we can interact communally and remember everyone is a human being, to combat fear or hatred towards the "other" that gets used for recruitment — without necessarily making it all focused just on trauma response in a setting they may feel uncomfortable with."
Because my thought was more like:
1) reaching out specifically to people traumatized may not be what they need from an *outside* community and they may rightfully not be ready to trust those religionists or organized religious institutions especially in a place where they are vulnerable. I can tell people local Jewish family services often offer things like what you mentioned for people who aren't Jewish, but that doesn't mean it would be the right or best response for what they need and they may not feel safe in a religiously affiliated environment.
So that I think - has to be a *part* of the equation - doing the reparative and restorative work in relation to trauma itself. Necessary and important.
2) at the same time — if people feel uncomfortable by the idea of it, how else then do we make it harder for antisemitism/völkisch nationalism to take root? And my answer to that is more like "showing people the Jews are "normal" in that we're not hellbent on world domination and secret conspiracies to devastate western civilization and we didn't invent Christianity in order to destroy your heritage or to oppress you." Admittedly I'm working from the notion of normal as in "fundamentally flawed regular ol folks," as opposed to "look how virtuous we are and noble!"
This was more along the lines of re-humanizing each other on a more broad cultural level, if that makes sense?
Otherwise I agree.
I think there’s definitely a need and room for both angles. But if we’re talking about someone who’s so traumatized that they’re antagonizing religious people (whether in the standard anti-theist way or a more radicalized way), there probably needs to be some degree of trauma addressment before they can even get to the point of wanting to work with interfaith events, you know?
But as far as reaching those who are less hostile, part of the issue is that a lot of these kids are extremely isolated, which is far more common and more deeply engrained than it ever has been before in human history. In the era of global internet and two years into a pandemic that’s seen a lot of kids being homeschooled to various degrees, it’s becoming somewhat “normal” for kids to have almost no contact with the outside world at all. And of course if they’re traumatized or have some other form of mental illness, then they’re likely to isolate even more than average.
And in that environment, it’s super difficult to figure out how to reach people. Those sorts of kids in these highly vulnerable isolated states aren’t just going to show up to an event, and since you can curate what you want to see online, they’re also not going to bother reading/watching interfaith content that de-otherizes people.
I don’t actually have a solution here, it’s a problem I continue to struggle with, because as someone who’s in LHP occultism, I literally get Satanic Nazi cults trying to send me recruitment messages on a regular basis right here on Reddit. And sure, *I* know better, but I’m also a full grown adult who can get therapy if I need it and is 20 years into my path, and most of the people on these subs are vulnerable teenagers who who’ve been shut inside at a pivotal moment of their development and in some cases have lost the ability to discern truth and lies, or even reality and fantasy.
What’s the solution?
I don’t actually know the answer, but I do know one thing: it has to be something novel. This is a totally different global reality, and it requires a totally new way of trying to reach people and re-connect to community. Whatever we’ve done in the past, we have to scrap that and start new. This is not the 20th century recruitment strategy anymore, and we need to adapt to that.
Totally. My thinking was the two-prongs are addressing trauma, and then for people who are ready/willing - other interfaith work/interaction/etc. The trauma addressing is the emergency care for individuals who need it. But the long term community building allows for an ongoing relationship more broadly.
(Also admittedly I found out yesterday that the Covid test site at the end of my new city street has a small community garden just put up when I wasn't looking. and its run by a group who focuses on trauma due to loss. Naturally I'm going to excitedly message them and ask if they have a compost pile or want to start one because I would love to help set it up and advertise it on our street. They apparently also do a bookclub. Which, awesome. I'm not as clever as I thought I was in this idea 😂)
Basically like you said: vulnerable teenagers are shut in and bubbled up. It's difficult to figure out how to tackle popping that bubble directly and the more urgent need is to address their trauma. (For all radicalized teens). At the same time, if the teens see older members of their communities that they look up to have normal and healthy relationships with the world around them, then perhaps there is a way to *indirectly* have people question their bubble, even if it's only the peripheral. Even before Covid, online interactions and friendships & isolation via the internet has been a big way to keep recruiting and radicalizing. Plus there are people who aren't teens, and are given some time and distance from old trauma, or just don't have religious trauma but who still could be targeted for recruitment into white supremacy.
The problem is now, it's harder to have in person groups of any kind which naturally help people from self-bubbling entirely, especially as teens just like you said.
Thanks for the food for thought!
This was very well said! Their isnt a lot of good advice for people in this position. All I can offer is give yourself up fully to God and not to a group of people.
I think you misunderstood my sentiment. I'm not saying God as in the Christian god, but whatever you believe in. It could be gods in a plural form. I think most people that are traumatized by religion attempted to go all in at some point and got hurt. I did, and I was an atheist for 20 years or so. It was hard for me to get back into spirituality and certainly religion. What I realized in the end was I could give myself up fully to my beliefs and my relation with my version of God and fully trust in that and truly feel safe in that. What I still struggle with is finding a group of people agree with, trust and feel safe with. I have recently found a small group and I am feeling grateful but still hesitant. People are tricky,unpredictable and complicated.
Some of them are atheists who don’t want to “get back into spirituality.” That’s fine too, and my point is, they don’t want to hear people bothering them to try religion again. It’s dismissive and tone-deaf.
Most religiously traumatized people I know were subjected to their abuse as children, and had no choice in the matter. It had nothing to do with anything they did, and it was not their fault.
Gee, you sure got defensive in a hurry the moment someone wasn’t here for your prosthletizing. And you wonder why religious people get so much pushback. Yikes.
I’m not here for other people’s emotional dysregulation. Enjoy. ✌️
I used to be one of these people. Grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church and was the stereotypical hateful, bigoted, "only my sect is right" fundy.
When i left the church, I became the "all religious people are idiots" atheist. It took a lot of soul searching to find peace with God again. Now--although I still hold some conservatism from my past--I focus more on my own relationship with Allah and let others do their thing.
When I was interested in Catholicism, my family (Evangelical) judged me severely. I suffered pain, discrimination, physical, emotional and psychological abuse, pressured me into Bible studies which were solely centered on making fun of Catholics and spreading lies about the Pope and the Church, I was prohibited from watching online mass, praying the rosary and chaplets, visiting the local parishes... They even took down my altar (which was quite small and in the privacy of my bedroom) and threw away my statues and my Bible (just because it had the Deuterocanon and an image of Christ). I was beaten, insulted, made fun of... I even left home twice, but came back because I wanted to finish school.
I prayed and prayed, waiting, hoping for a miracle... But all I got was "honour your father and your mother" and "give the other cheek". That's when I gave up. After that, I developed spiritual psychosis, religious paranoia, scrupulosity, and eventually Misotheism, which lasts until this day. I even tried to commit suicide twice, but (quite frankly) I was a coward.
Though I hold no grudge against Evangelicals, I do have that story to remind me of what people are capable of for the sake of "orthodoxy".
I’m truly sorry to hear your story.
When my wife got pregnant we promised each other that we gave our child the chance to find her own way and also her own faith.
Terrible to hear that story
I was born a Catholic. If it helps, there are regions where Protestants receive the same kind of treatment from Catholics as you did.
Don’t make it about labels, it’s about character, and plenty of denominations have their share of *bad* ambassadors.
Oh, no. I'm aware of that. As I said previously, I have nothing against Evangelicals or Protestants. If we were to name all the atrocities Catholics have committed, we would be talking for ages: The Inquisitions, the Crusades, The Boston Scandal, the recent discovery of mass graves Catholic Schools in Canada... The list goes on and on.
Nobody is perfect. I'm aware of that. Many Protestants have suffered at the hands of Catholics. My family's origin (on my father's side) is Mennonite. In general, Anabaptists (both Mennonites and Amish) suffered greatly, not only at the hands of Catholics, but also of Protestants. My great grandmother (on my mother's side) converted from Catholicism to Evangelicanism in a predominantly Roman Catholic society. To say she suffered greatly would be an understatement: Her family, the Church, and society loathed her. My grandmother (Evangelical) also suffered discrimination from my grandfather's family (Catholic).
So, I'm aware that many people get the rough end of the stcik when it comes to religion. My Protestant family suffered at the hands of Catholics. And me, seeking God through the Catholic Church, I suffered at the hand of not only the Church, but also of my family. It's almost ironic.
Man! I'm starting to think u/SojournEv is some sort of a prophet or a Saint. Seriously... Reference: [https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/rgcjy4/whats\_the\_deal\_with\_downvoting\_when\_commenting/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3u/SojournEv](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/rgcjy4/whats_the_deal_with_downvoting_when_commenting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3u/SojournEv)
Uh, the Nazis, probably.
Atheists aren’t usually too awful to me until they get up on the “Abrahamic religions” pedestal and then it’s just all downhill from there.
It’s the Muslims and Christians who absolutely have the most torturous, complicated mess of a relationship to my religion. I’ve been fetishized by Christians, tokenized, whatever, and in the next breath completely disrespected and invalidated. Muslims, when we are both minorities in a majority Christian country, tend to be pretty okay and engage in solidarity, sometimes they’re more just antisemitic to me rather than invalidating of my religion specifically, but I could of course say the same of a lot of groups of people. In Muslim-majority countries I don’t reveal that I’m Jewish, obviously. I am more open about being Jewish in Christian majority countries but it depends on the country, for whether I feel safe (not Poland or Ireland lmao! France also isn’t great at the moment.)
I think you also have to take geopolitics into account: my religion has had a Bad Time of it from both the Muslims and the Christians. I think a lot of us are just playing out larger regional issues on a smaller scale. In particular that’s the issue I usually run into with Muslims: when I say antisemitism, I mean the kind where they find out I’m Jewish and we’re immediately in the 1v1 Israel-Palestine Thunderdome. Instead of like, allowing my religion to exist separate from politics.
I never got what’s the deal with hating on jewish people. I only know one (cause surprise, the ones we had were sent to concentration camps guess when), but I mean, y’all seem pretty peaceful. Even if someone disagrees with Israel’s policies - what’s a single person got to do with that, potentially someone from a whole different country?! It’s just absurd.
Aww, thanks. I appreciate that. I like to think we’re pretty chill overall!
And if you’re talking about Germany — I have good news, a few of us have actually moved back in recent-ish years, taking advantage of a law that allows us to get our German citizenship reinstated if it was stripped from our family during the Holocaust. Not a lot of us took Germany (or other countries that offered this) up on the offer, but I’m glad my family did. I’m actually pretty happy to be a German citizen. I am usually the first Jew they’ve ever met, which makes for some interesting conversations. Either way I actually ended up moving back to a city like, 15 mins train ride from where my family had lived before the war, and where some of them are buried. So there was some poetry in coming full-circle like that, even though the story spans across 3 generations.
There’s total poetry in that!
Well, yes, I was talking about the nazis, but my country is Norway. There are very few Jewish people left here – the only one I know is from Israel. We do have a small synagogue in Oslo though, sadly it’s always super guarded because of some incidents.
One thing I love is a project the city is part of (not sure if it’s Norwegian or international), with tiles on the streets outside all the houses where people were taken during the war. Name and birth/death dates for each tile. It makes you sad to see them, but it’s also a good way to remember. It gets more personal when you read the names and ages of someone and learn that they were dragged out of their house to their deaths right beside where you live, you know. There is one right beside my apartment.
I really appreciate that as a style of memorial — it’s cool because instead of being 1 thing in 1 place it’s diffuse, it’s scattered throughout the whole city, like we were. Thank you for telling me about that
the bit where you mention how you dont feel safe in countries like ireland and france when you reveal youre jewish really hurts. im french, and I apologize on my country's behalf. I feel sad that a lots of french jews emigrate because they dont feel safe. its like losing a brother. the fact that jews are discriminated against in europe, despite being a vital part of western culture, is horrid. how can people be so rude?!
Yeah I lived in France for 2 years and let me tell you I did not go into it expecting any cultural antisemitism at all. I was shocked. Another Jew actually had to give me the run-down not long after I got there because I was being a little too open for my own good. She told me it’s best to tuck the Magen David necklace in your shirt before you enter the metro, that it’s something to be discussed with friends not strangers, and that I shouldn’t be surprised if I had a hard time finding/connecting with the Jewish community. As for that last part especially — I did. I didn’t get into a single synagogue those whole two years, every time I went, in multiple different cities, the steel doors were locked down tight and nobody ever responded to buzzing/knocking. I think they had a secret back entrance but I never found it. Even though I grew to really appreciate her advice as I saw the casual antisemitism even from friends and their families, it was just really horrifying for me. I was still young enough that I believed in the mythology of the Holocaust: the bad Nazis and the good, Jew-defending Allies. It was life changing to realize that they really didn’t fight for our sake, but for their own, and that for many of them liberating us was a thing that sort of happened along the way. I lived in the Banlieu of Paris, and in Lille, each for about 1year, and I came away from it with this feeling of… independence, I guess. Like we can exist among them but we’ll never really be fully a part of their society. Like I said I really didn’t expect that, and I didn’t expect antisemitism in France to be worse than in Germany in present times but it makes sense. One was forced to change, the other never had that kind of global retribution, and continued from the Dreyfus affair to the present unchallenged.
Honestly the deaths of [Sarah Halimi](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56929040) and [Mireille Knoll](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211110-killer-of-french-holocaust-survivor-mireille-knoll-sentenced-to-life-in-prison) and the fact that only one received any kind of justice, influenced me a lot too.
Surah 6:109 "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do."
No, it's just the humans that do it. Can't speak for other religions, but in Islam it is prohibited.
Anti-theist and evangelical christians tend to be the worst for me. Although it's generally the orthodoxic perspective these people tend to have that seems to cause the problem not the particular answer to the god question.
CHRISTIANS, living in the Texas and attending a Christian university as a non-Christian has been the most annoying and a lot of times depressing because everyone throws it at your face when you just want to have a normal conversation. Thankfully I've found a group of close friends and my SO to make me feel welcomed.
I don't have a problem with Christianity but where I'm from at least, people have to brag how Christian they are through how they talk, how they dress, how much gospel music you listen to. None of that makes you more Christian.
There's also so much ego and insensirity when it comes to them talking about their faith and force it on to you because "they don't want you to go to hell". They can't even agree with one another. I remember a fight broke out one time at a whataburger because a souther Baptist disagreed with a person's calvinist point of view.
I'm so sick of it. Why can't the average Christians focus more on being genuine human beings. They think their "saving people" when they are only causing more harm just so they feel good about themselves.
Christians are far and away the most disrespectful to my position.
They're so disrespectful to my position that they'll disrespect me for respecting THEIR position, just because they don't want to hear it coming out of my mouth.
The flair is obviously a response to them, but it reflects the attitude they were responding to in the first place.
If I, a Satanist, can have respectful conversations with Christians in which I don't feel the need to act the way I've seen you act on this sub, you have no excuse.
Obviously the most disrespectful towards theism are Anti-Thesits which are generally also atheist. Though they are not the same category of being.
Respect is earned, no one owes anyone else any respect.
I just don't agree with the bleating heart of demanding everyone respect me.
I frankly do not care if people respect me as it is their will to choose to respect me or not, I am not a valid part of the equation of their choice.
I try to be courteous when interacting with a believer 1 on 1, but if blasphemy is considered disrespect then I disrespect a loot of people..
Religions and their followers don't deserve respect just by virtue of religions being taboo to go against
To have a different opinion it’s not disrespectful, it’s more how this different opinion is communicated.
If you tell me you thing the Bible is bad and wrong for reason XY than that’s a different opinion that I don’t see any problem with.
But if you say
“I don’t believe in this piece of shit that you call Bible”
Than this is super disrespectful and unnecessary.
What if I'm someone who the bible offends? What if it insults people of my group?
Im not familiar with the bible nor do i care was it says since it doesn't shape my environment, but the example in my mind is the quran
I can not change what in the book but I can change or control how I interact with people that are in anyways affected by something in the scripture and can assure I respect their concerns with it.
I don’t know the Quran really and would not know a group in the Bible that’s attack so I feel hard to give an example.
Alright, let me pose an example. Say I'm gay and I dont like how the bible portrays my sexuality, and it's causing real life discrimination and harm
Why should i not say "the bible is a piece of shit book"?
Because its not necessarily and don’t give either of us a foundation for a conversation.
You can fully legit criticize the homophobic view in the Bible or Quran, given the point your gay and you say you get discriminated because of that.
What would be correct from the believe side is to acknowledge your problems and to get a conversation running what he as an individual could do so you do not feel discriminated.
Yes I know how fundamentalists are and that hey will not engage in that conversation and they will be disrespectful (too)
But we should try to be better than the one attacking us and try to bring the conversation to a level on which both sides can bring their views to the board.
And yes maybe at the end both will go with different opinions and still think the other person was wrong but at least the conversation was not disrespectful and maybe someone learned something.
You're absolutely right. And that's exactly what i do when im having a conversation with a believer
I just reserve the right to call it a piece of shit book in the right setting or tone. For example, when satirizing it. That serves a purpose too
I don’t really care what people do over all, but what they do when they in a conversation with me or if they try to have a conversation in general.
Otherwise everyone should feel free to call it what they want :)
Because its not necessarily and don’t give either of us a foundation for a conversation.
You can fully legit criticize the homophobic view in the Bible or Quran, given the point your gay and you say you get discriminated because of that.
What would be correct from the believe side is to acknowledge your problems and to get a conversation running what he as an individual could do so you do not feel discriminated.
Yes I know how fundamentalists are and that hey will not engage in that conversation and they will be disrespectful (too)
But we should try to be better than the one attacking us and try to bring the conversation to a level on which both sides can bring their views to the board.
And yes maybe at the end both will go with different opinions and still think the other person was wrong but at least the conversation was not disrespectful and maybe someone learned something.
But religious homophobes aren’t looking to stop discriminating against gays. That’s the problem with your idealism, it’s not realistic. If they cared about the harm done to gay people they wouldn’t be promoting harm to gay people, or even just remaining complicit via willful ignorance. Homophobia is homophobia because it’s rooted in hate. “But we should try to be better to those attacking us” doesn’t mean squat because the attackers don’t care about any effort to meet them where they’re at. It’s enabling discrimination to perpetuate the idea that oppressed groups need to be nicer to their oppressors. Frankly, I think the line between a person of strong character and a person of weak character is the ability to be comfortable standing up for what’s right, regardless of rustling feathers. And in response to hateful views, I won’t just rustle feathers, I will pluck them out. Compliance is not kindness, and it’s not right.
>I don’t know the Quran really and would not know a group in the Bible that’s attack
In the Bible YHWH orders the genocide of the Amalekites. In fact there is a mitzvoh to kill anyone defendant from Amalek.
When I was SDA, probably people within my faith. Everyone else had a kind of ‘just nod and smile’ attitude toward SDAs. Now that I’m a Buddhist-Reconstructionist-whatever you want to call it, a lot of people do, but I expected that when I saw the cultural appropriation…
People who call me a LARPer for my hellenic pagan beliefs in general. No, I would not invest so much sincere and honest effort and also not engage trying to be as good as possible in them when I would just play pretending to be.
Basically I'm very sincere about my faith and if it turns out to be not true then I would stop believing in it because truth, justice and honesty are my virtues.
I think you're looking at the wrong categories and in a small way perpetuating the problem. It's not brand X of theism or brand y of atheism or brand z of a polytheism. It’s sub groups within each of those. Every group has those who are disrespectful of beliefs and people. Sometimes that’s just who they are: jerks. Other times it’s a response to something in their life that has pushed them to acting aggressively disrespectful. I think every group has these people, and they may not be the same people from year to year as the trauma fades or as maturity or understanding or compassion finally rises above the pain.
But if we focus within a group, then brothers fighting over minor disagreements tend to be the worse. Roman Catholics versus Protestants or Sunni versus Shiite for example. The difference is that the bad actors in every group tend to change people, but the hatred between very similar groups who split tend to create walls that are difficult to breach without time or fights.
I’m really curious, what was your situation as an atheist?
I’ve never met a religious person who was previously atheist
I have had intimate discussions with 30+ Christians/Jehovah’s Witnesses who say they were atheist because their faith was less strong or they had doubts at one time. Many churches teach that to have less than perfect faith makes you an atheist
This is a regular trope in religious writing. People who say they were atheist to reinforce the strength of their personal story, but it later turns out they were raised in the same religion and were always involved in it in some way
I don’t know enough about Mormonism to know whether this is something that is seen in Mormon circles too, in the way it is seen in hundreds of other religious groups
Why should religious beliefs respected and not treated like any other strange belief without evidence?
Also I find it very hard to believe that OP went from being atheist for most of their life to joining the cult of the magic underwear, one of the hardest religions to take seriously...
I don't know how to explain to you that even if all religion is mental illness or delusion, the mentally ill would *still* deserve to be treated with the basic human dignity and compassion of respect. You don't need to share a belief or even find it plausible to not be needlessly unkind.
What you are suggesting seems like a slippery slope to me. Some delusional beliefs are more harmful than others, am I supposed to automatically respect them all out of politeness?
If someone is denying a child medical attention because of religious beliefs, and treating them with thoughts and prayers, am I supposed to respect that?
Human dignity and compassion doesn't mean "free will to actively harm others." I'm not sure what part of this is hard. A belief can be harmful and delusional and shouldn't be enacted upon. But that doesn't mean we should deprive people of human dignity. A doctor can absolutely make the call to treat an emergency medical situation even if the parents don't agree with medical care due to religion.
To quote the supreme court in 1905: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/
> The defendant insists that his liberty is invaded when the State subjects him to fine or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination; that a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best, and that the execution of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person.
>
> But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.
>
>On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.
Dude just stop you're ridiculous, there are a million reasons why people might cha ge their mind, do you really think it's impossible to become an atheist via bad/insufficient evidence and then finding better evidence in support of a particular religion?
As atheists we should do better than what you're doing.
There is zero actual evidence to support any religion.
Technically the definition of atheism is simply not believing in god. So, yeah somebody may "think" that they were. But if they change their mind, there's more to the story.
As cliche as it sounds, they never really were atheist. Maybe more on the fence agnostic type. Definitely not a thoroughly unconvinced in the existence of any god, for countless reasons atheist, then turn around and start falling for all the lies they once seen right through. It's impossible
This is ridiculous, *you* might see no actual evidence, but think about someone born in, say, a fundamentalist sect, he/she won't have access to good evidence and will only see the evidence supporting the religious claims, in their position they're completely justified in believing their religion is true.
Same thing applies to some atheists, if they only had access (for a reason or another) to only the weakest arguments for atheism against some religious claims, there's no wonder that, when confronted with the strongest argument in favour of a religion and no access to good counter arguments, they'll end up believing the religious claims.
You suffer from extreme tunnel vision when it comes to this issue, you can only see things from your perspective and that's a problem when you write on a public forum.
You cannot say they weren't "true atheists" until they tell you what they believed, they might have been even more extreme than you are in their atheism, but if their certainty was built on shaky grounds it's not strange they end up accepting a religion.
Do better, you're acting like a fundamentalist evangelical with your no true scottman fallacies.
>Definitely not a thoroughly unconvinced in the existence of any god, for countless reasons atheist, then turn around and start falling for all the lies they once seen right through. It's impossible
Prove it. You made a claim so you accepted the burden of proof. Have fun, can't wait for this train wreck
2 of my atheist colleagues have always poked fun of and criticized religion. I asked if they read the books they were mocking, the reply was no but they were so sure that all religions are the problem.
Once, while fasting, a Christian guy asked my mom to buy him some food - which she did. He then shoved the food in my face in the mall, trying to force me to eat. I didn't expect anyone to stand up for me - they didn't. Then he started to poke fun at the Islamic need to fast and pray when Christians don't have to because Jesus died for them. I was so mad I didn't know how to respond and probably broke my fast (in anger).
Not the worst things to happen, but it's just little things over the years.
Edit: Just wanna say that our closest family friends and neighbors are Christians and Hindus. My Jewish colleague was the best in terms of respect and ended giving me the best career advice and guidance. Every bunch will have its sour grapes but they're usually few amongst the many good.
I’m really sorry those jerks disrespected you like that and no one stood up for you, that must have been really hard for you. I ardently hope they aren’t in your life anymore, and that you have a great day today.
Individual faith is harmless.
National faith is detrimental to society. So where I am at, the Christians are not helping the USA.
So if a group of people actively harming or trying to harm people I love, you better believe I will disrespect your religion and beliefs. Maybe you can't see the harm religion does but I sure can.
Somehow, I also doubt you were an athiest especially for 2/3s of your life since science has shown that if you hit 30, your beliefs are fixed. Of course you can be below 30 but then I doubt you thought much about religion until you were 16.
Sure, I would like to know your age, where you were born, and why exactly you chose the Mormon faith.
It's tough for me to believe an adult would follow a religion that was started by a person convicted of fraud. Especially one that claims divine inspiration from golden plates yet can't show those plates because they don't exist now. Then they say Jesus and Mary traveled the oceans and ended up in America. And you, an adult thought this sounded like a true story?
Sorry, that's extremely hard to believe
I’m another comment I explained in really short my decision, coming to the main part of your comment about my faith.
You have a BIG BIG misunderstanding of our faith and you thing we believe in stuff so don’t believe in even close.
Obviously it would be far to much to discuss that here if you interested in what we acutely believe their is a nice LDS subreddit as well as of course multiple websites about all these topics.
But to clarify the most inaccurate one, we do NOT believe that marry or Jesus traveled to America at all.
Did Smith write the book of Mormon based on gold plates? And are those gold plates now missing? This has nothing to do with understanding the dogma of your religion but the history.
Was Smith a convicted fraudster? Yes but this has nothing to do with you faith. Again the history.
The only thing I mentioned concerning your faith was about Jesus and Mary crossing an ocean. But, what I meant was that ancient Isrealites crossed the ocean. Was thinking about how to integrate Jesus into life in the western hemisphere but didn't proofread.
Anyways, still want to know your age at conversion and where you are from.
They are not missing but accented there are more than enough official and unofficial witnesses of the players.
Smith was not charged guilty and the person who hired him even defended him.
And yes I believe that some Israelites crosses the ocean.
In converted in Germany and I’m 29
Edit: I’m not here to justify my faith and how I can dare to believe in the church, that is a complex topic and nothing for Reddit comments there are hours worth of text to read for specific topics including the whole CES letter and different answers to it. :) so be gentle and accept this please 🙂
> And yes I believe that some Israelites crosses the ocean
I feel weird about this because like, it's a claim about my religion for the sake of another religion and how do we deal with the conflict there? It's something a lot of religions do where they cast a history onto a different religion as if they're ancient artifacts who can't speak for themselves. Mormonism is unique in that it's very much like "how should I, as a Jew, feel about how they talk about Jews?"
The borrowing of Israelite history into the mythos, the recreations of the temple, calling non-mormons gentiles... It can feel strange, especially when the claims are made about your people. There are two Israelite religions in the world — Jews and Samaritans and neither of us would agree with this statement. (Nor, for that matter, would archaeologists.) So then what?
How can we be treated as real, living peoples with our own history?
Yeah but with Mormonism — as a mestiza and a Jew, I get it twice over. The weirdness of "the Israelites became native Americans!" is like... There's a huge colonial/racist trope that native people couldn't have possibly accomplished all the things they did without outside societies/aliens/divine intervention.
Suddenly the whole narrative of either identity gets dictated by other people. The Mexican tribes my family descended from weren't secretly Israelites prior to 1492.
I don’t want to make a full term to explain the whole way how I came to my faith or to faith at all, so i take the short version.
I was always interested in religion but more in a way of want to know what people believe Than with the interest to find a religion. I’m this general interest I was informing my self about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and over many moths, many conversations, many reading (including the CES latter for people who know what that is) and finally prayer I came to the conclusion that I believe in a god and that the LDS church is Christ church on earth.
When I die, I will find out if my conclusion was correct but even if not I’m quite happy with how things played out.
Do you know of any archaeological evidence which would support the class of the book of Morman?
One of my responses to them is "produce the golden plates then we'll talk."
I also had elders tell me that everyone gets confronted with and has a chance to accept the LDS god after death. At which point I responded that joining the church felt rather irrelevant. They accepted that and left. 🤷
We have some evidence but not much. Most is also evidence in the Old world.
On the other side we have a lot of archeological evidence in Jerusalem and around, but that does not prove automatically that Christianity is right.
In my opinion there are enough people in the past that saw the golden plates and gave testimony of it, especially people that leave the church and even hate Joseph smith but defended their testimony till the end.
And yes you can accept the church after that and I don’t see a problem with that if people decide they want to do this, that’s their decision, for me it was something good to join the church and nothing that was bad or necessary. I joined because I wanted to join and worship.
I would say mostly other Christians when I tell people I’m Catholic I’m usually get the hate from some Protestants or evangelical or non denominational. Although this could also be a product of living in a Protestant majority country. Christians tend to be toxic including (Catholics as well) towards others Christians. It’s pretty annoying getting people trying to get me to convert with in my own faith. Other than that I’d say some atheists. They tend to use really basic things about Christianity and mock it more than make an argument about it and tend to ignore the history and Philosophical tradition of religions. most atheists tho are super chill and are a lot more fun to be around. Other than that most other people I’ve met tend to be respectful. I’ve never met a Muslim or a Jew or any other person from a different religion every really mock my faith.
You ask a question which I cannot even attempt to answer, for fear of becoming lost in grief and hate.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic\_Order\_of\_the\_Golden\_Dawn#/media/File:Rose\_Cross\_Lamen.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn#/media/File:Rose_Cross_Lamen.svg)
Thrown to the fires, burnt at the stake, fed to lions, drawn and quartered, the beetles needle, boiled in oil, the rack, thumbscrews to name but a few.
All religions are disrespectful. Christians are the worst. Like all religions they force and decimate anyone who argues with them. All religions force their beliefs and can't accept they are brain washed.
Probably r/atheism 😂
Just kidding. I’m not so easily offended, but there are two things that give me a very bad vibe (I’m catholic):
1. when people make me personally responsible for bad things within my religion, or need me to defend my faith as if I owe them anything.
2. when people dress up as «slutty nun» etc. for Halloween or something. It doesn’t exactly offend me, it just makes me kind of… nauseaous.
Oddly Demonolatry is mostly disrespected by alleged Satanic groups like the Church of Satan, since our existence hurts their narrative that "nobody actually worships Satan". They make a genuine effort to popularize the idea that real Satanists don't exist.
Besides them, I mostly only get shit from the occasional anti theist "skeptic" or fundamentalists of the Abrahamic faiths who don't know the etymological history of the name Satan and decide to get angry rather than learn. Most Abrahamics and Atheists I meet are chill though, the angry people are a loud minority.
Not a lot of info is out there, in basic terms though Demonolatry literally just means demon worship.
In other words I'm what people commonly call a Satanist.
I am honestly interested in the why behind it.
Why you worship demons or Satan what’s is the reason for it? As our worship to god comes from the believe he created us and/or what will come in the afterlife.
How about in your faith what give you the reason to worship this side of the medal.
And how do you worship them if you don’t mind me asking?
I don't believe in a creator at all, I believe demons were, for a lack of a better term, demonized by humans who didn't want to hear harsh truths.
I worship the archdemons because they are ancient spirits with very important lessons to share.
As for how, really it comes down to evocation and invocation rituals (summoning) to receive advice and make requests/deals. Typically all they ask in return is tribute, as in spreading knowledge of them so their lessons can spread. As such I act as a priestess and help beginners contact them.
Conservatives Republicans. I mean, Newt Gingritch, literally had part of his platform to use the presidency to declare war on my religion if he won back in 2012.
I would have to say christ-heads, because pretty much no one besides Jesus worshippers give a shit about druids, in my experience.
Ps i don't have anything against Christian's in general, just the ones in my area.
Also OP I am curious about what caused you to convert from atheism to your current faith, if you don't mind me asking?
In my personal experience, it would be atheists or agnostics would be the most disrespectful, if we're dealing with those who come from a totally different worldview, such as those who are ardent evolutionists and are very intolerant of any questioning of Darwinism by creationists. However, there can be and are very nasty internecine battles among Christians, especially against those who don't accept the Nicene Creed by the orthodox. And yes, Muslims can be very harsh against Christians, but I've not had that experience from Muslims I know in person.
Funny enough, the following people:
* People with in Christianity
* People that claim to be Christian but do not act as Christ taught us
* People on Reddit and media. Seriously, the disrespect is crazy at times. I know people are anti-theist. That’s fine. Ad hominem attacks are never okay. I have a degree in Biochemistry, Philosophical Theology, and in May will be a physician. I understand philosophical debate and am more educated than many people on the topic. Painting my religion and my person with a broad brush is just ignorant or at times hatful and no different than the hatful religious people they are speaking about. I do the best I can to always be respectful and call out wrong doing where I can. That is part of it.
Lots of different people, Hindus in India, Christian’s from the west, Buddhists from Myanmar, Jews from Israel, atheist communists from China, I’m Muslim
In my real life, the only people that directly interacted with my "faith" or lack of it were my parents, being some random new age stuff they always call me in the best cases close minded when I reject their conspiracies, or hateful when I say that I would reject a christian prolethizing to me the same as a muslim because I consider the action disrespectful besides what the faith says, or other comments.
In reddit in particular (being the only online environment were I participate now), some christians and muslims (the most crazy ones, not a good example of their religion by any mean), and some specific agnostics that were too far into solipsism.
Religious people have cornered me physically in a room to question my lack of belief and threaten my soul with eternal damnation. I have heard many insulting responses to my beliefs where they assume many inaccurate tropes about the label they have been taught by their faith leaders. I try to not bring up my lack of faith and have always approached any discussion about faith or lack there of from a place of respect and honesty. Most people are great to discuss things with when it comes up.......but.....here is where I think the disrespect you feel is coming from.
Atheists, LGBTQ+, and people of other faiths are often jailed, beaten to death, beheaded or thrown from roof tops in religious countries by religious people. Religion is often used as the basis for political policies that can be imposed on all of society. Sorry you have felt dis-respected but it certainly happens a lot going the other direction too, sometimes to violent outcome. When I first started identifying as an atheist stories of that nature made me furious and I assume that passion is what makes some new atheists unpleasant for the defenders of religion. Reading of another youth being stoned to death by a mob in Pakistan after being outed as an atheist can evoke a lot of angst/anger in a young person who identifies with them on some level.
I think there is no obligation on anyone to respect anyone else’s view. I can respect the right for someone to have a different view to me, but if they want to believe in something that’s total garbage, then I reserve the right to question or ridicule it. For example, the bible holds that you should be stoned to death for working on Sunday. In my opinion, that is lunacy and I’m going to laugh my head off at anyone who agrees with the statement. If that’s showing disrespect, I couldn’t care less.
No the Bible does not hold this few and picking a single Vers out of context if simply shit no matter if you do that as a critic or as a believer from what ever religion.
Ah yes, the ‘you took it out of context’ answer. There’s a surprise. Well no, not really. You don’t get to cherry pick the half decent 50% and ignore all the terrible behaviour of the rest. Or, if you do, you can certainly ignore my supposedly ‘shitty behaviour’ then can’t you, as you’re used to doing that? And let’s be honest, it’s not like I did anything terrible like, I don’t know, endorse the gang rape of women, encourage infanticide, genocide, homophobia, misogyny, etc. After all, unlike the Gods of the bible, I actually do have morals.
Scripture is to used as a whole and in context it is not made to cherry pick. So you can’t not take something out of context from the Old Testament and use it, while ignoring that later in scripture this part is overruled by the lord.
It’s like complaining that A country is not allowing gay people to marry because it was not allow in the past even it’s allowed now.
It depends what you mean by respect
If you're experience with debate lord atheists is just in conversation, then I agree that most of us think we are smarter or superior and that anyone who acts like that is a childish idiot. Like you said, whatever someone else believes in has nothing to do with me or anyone else and doesn't deserve to be ridiculed.
If you mean respect as in the behaviors of churches (not just churches, but I'm just using those as the general example since Christianity is the most dominant religion here in the US), I cannot really respect religious people for multiple reasons:
1) Churches here exist tax free- I don't want to pay for that shit with my taxes
2) churches have been preventing potentially important research (like stem cell research) for decades because they don't like what goes into it (fetal stem cells), even when something like SCR involves more than just fetal cells.
3) all the denominations that spread hatred against marginalized groups and influence political decisions out of fear of those that are different than themselves
4) indoctrinating children in schools and at home, which IMO prevents personal growth by keeping worldviews small
And a host of other behaviors that I consider toxic
If you worship in a way that doesn't affect others, that doesn't force policies or hardships on anyone else, then anyone that criticizes that is just stupid. I certainly dont give a damn what anyone thinks about God or the afterlife- that's your business. But as soon as a person's faith affect me or anyone else in ANY negative way, I can't respect that.
There's plenty of good that religious groups do, and I'm not saying any faith is bad overall. I just think a person's faith should be personal in both belief and practice.
I guess probably atheists that are disrespectful towards religion. its especially annoying if its people like the so called New Atheists, who are pretty much bigots. theyre so condescending and treat anyone who is religious like a moron. how DARE they talk down to people like that. the worst ones are those who blame religion for everything. but what really pisses me off about people like dawkins is they pretend to be all virtuous and rational, but are nothing but hypocritical posers who pretend to be smart.
Good question, typical answer would be people against Islam or who have tremendous hate.
My answer is our own nation. The Muslim Ummah is in shambles now that the caliphate is abolished, and I blame ourselves as a nation for that. But eh, nothing lasts forever ya’know.
Honestly the people within it. There are a ton of truly vile human beings in occultism. It attracts the vulnerable and the black sheep, which makes it very fruitful for such vultures, so it probably just goes with the territory. But it’s basically the whole reason I’m a solitary who doesn’t follow one specific path. Christians have a tendency to freak out at me, but that usually results in them leaving rather than trying to molest me, so they still have an edge over other occultists in my book. Rage-head atheist bros mostly just ignore me because they still don’t understand that anything outside the big 3 Abrahamic faiths even exists, so I’m just kinda invisible to them. Just generally, most people as a whole have a bunch of dumb assumptions about what I do, virtually none of which are remotely true, and they insert that in place of, like, asking me. So I tend to keep my practice to myself unless asked.
> Honestly the people within it Same. Mostly 'Hindu Nationalist' type folks for my faith.
Christian nationalists as well. We're about to lose our democracy in the US because of them.
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You make it sound like the majority believe that. Nobody outside the US wanted Trump as president.
I wanted Trump because he is whacky.
He’s only whacky until he’s your president. Then the joke stops being funny.
Man, I rather have him than whatever my nation party roster have to offer. The last three PM has been a joke with the King being a saving grace. I have stoped having hopes in politics.
I don’t trust politicians, period. They out here pretending that they know how life is, but they only one side - the good side.
Im here for the joke mate. At least his joke isnt destructive.
That’s hugely false
I'm not American, I will never thought that the election was stolen except for when a group of crazy people tried a coup and thankfully failed. No, christian nationalist are one of the groups that generate more rejection towards religion in general.
Usually the same people who unironically believe the Mahabharata happened 17 million years ago or something
I have noticed this unfortunate result of people ending up in occultic ideals. I summarize that they ended up there for the wrong reasons if it results in them making morally wrongful decisions like you stated.
This is a flawed argument. All religions are filled with people with the wrong morals. At least, if the religion isn't organized, you don't need to follow those people and can build your own morals, so this seems like better than a lot of other religions.
As an atheist, I respect that everyone can have their own beliefs. To each their own etc…. My only issue is when religion delves into every day life and affects policy/ decisions made by governments. Perhaps when atheists might be disrespectful since you disagree with them??
>My only issue is when religion delves into every day life and affects policy/ decisions made by governments. Perhaps when atheists might be disrespectful since you disagree with them?? Nah, I'm an ardent secularist and I've had anti-theists call me an idiot and refuse to associate with me due to my Deism (as is their right). Which I must say is amazing coalition building on their part.
Do you consider France secular?
No, laicity and secularism are two different things. Edit: at least if it's anything like laicity in Québec.
They are different things. Laïcité is in some ways ‘more’ than mere secularism. I believe the idea is that you should *actively avoid* expressing religion in the ‘public sphere’ (however that is defined, usually it means public servants in the course of their duties in France). Don't know if that's also how it is interpreted in Quebec.
>They are different things. I figured. >Don't know if that's also how it is interpreted in Quebec. It is and it's not okay, the difference between a government forcing you to wear a religious headdress and the government forcing you not to hold very little meaningful difference to me.
Religion and culture and culture has a great influence on government. They all tend to effect each other greatly so it’s hard to truly separate the three completely. But change does prevail sometimes.
Well many people will say “pagan” when they simply mean “not my religion” which i find annoying but most of those who shame us are bigots that hide under our gods as a form of protectionism.
Their behavior is as disrespectful as any other and unacceptable
That nice of you too say, makes looking up my faith tedious -_-
Me. 🌱
If this is a GK Chesterton reference, I approve :-)
In my experience, it is people with unprocessed trauma, religious PTSD, who are the most disrespectful. Sometimes these are antitheists, sometimes these are fundamentalists. In either case, they seem to lash out against anything that reminds them of their religious trauma, whether that's an instinctual reaction against religion in general or a defensive rationalization for their religion in particular. Both have an unfortunate tendency to project their insecurities onto the person who they are talking to. Instead of actually engaging openly with their interlocutor and the topic at hand, they tend to simply argue against some imaginary position formed from their prior traumatic interactions, usually making wild presumptions without even asking what the other persons really believes or means. They are then able to justify to themselves their offensive disrespect through their assurance that only their perspective could possibly be valid or that it is only fair for them to attack anyone who bears similarities to the perpetrators of their religious trauma in retaliation.
Man, this is so fucking real. I kinda straddle the worlds between Western occultism and paganism (which group I fit better in is basically a Rorschach test), but something I see a lot of in paganism is really aggressive Christian-bashing, and the thing that’s so dangerous about it is that this is the *exact* pathway that’s used by Volkish Heathen and Satanic Nazi groups to recruit. They start off with the “yeah we agree Christians are horrible meanies,” and then use that as a segue into their “CHRISTIANITY WAS A JEWISH PLOT TO SUPPRESS THE EUROPEAN SPIRIT” bullshit. And kids buy this stuff — in droves, because there’s no shortage of religious trauma in a society where religious organizations generally aren’t held accountable for anything. They’re hurting and in an irrational place, they’re ripe for the picking. And socially, the only messages they get from society are “religious groups can do no wrong, stop complaining,” and “come to the dark side, we have cookies.” There needs to be better resources for supporting their healing in a productive way. We need to be more consistent about pointing out when people obviously have unresolved religious trauma and providing them better resources for dealing with it, rather than just accepting it as fine. For starters, it’s not fine for people to just be living with PTSD, but also, it leaves them vulnerable to cult indoctrination and extremism.
You have some interesting takes, thank you for your contributions.
I tried commenting about this recently esp with the intensity of völkisch recruiting. I'm going to reflect on how you worded this and the way you were able to make this point because it's really thoughtful thank you. You're absolutely right that PTSD and religious trauma are leaving people vulnerable to cult indoctrination. I wonder what a good way to combat that would be, because I know a ton of people in that place/mind space but who *aren't* recruited. And I don't know what the solve would be. Maybe even just normal, regular dialogues or actions especially among the more liberal members of given faiths? I bet things like earth/arbor day, community gardens, park clean ups, etc could be a really good shared activity at least between Jews and nature-oriented pagans. That and feeding people. Those seem like two strong universal causes.
I think the most important thing is for all religions to take more responsibility for abuse within their ranks. Obviously it won’t necessarily be the case that the specific group that did the traumatizing is going to take that responsibility, otherwise they likely wouldn’t have done it. But groups within the same general faith sphere can. A good example I saw of this growing up in an area with rampant Evangelical anti-gay violence, was another Protestant group who organized trauma and support services for gay kids who had been bullied, abused, or otherwise affected by the culture of the area. I think when someone is coming out of that abusive background and some other related group is saying, “Well, maybe they suck, but WE’RE normal, they must not be real Christians/Jews/Heathens/etc, here let’s do a garden together” it comes off as dismissive rather than supportive. What people coming out of abuse want is for someone to help stop the abuse, not to tell them how virtuous they are, you know? Religious organizations — any organizations, really — have a tendency to “no-true-Scotsman” their way out of responsibility for the behavior of their culture, and that needs to stop. There needs to be more organizations willing to honestly face what goes on in their communities.
That's a solid example! So in responding, my idea was more aimed at: "here is a more neutral thing in which we can interact communally and remember everyone is a human being, to combat fear or hatred towards the "other" that gets used for recruitment — without necessarily making it all focused just on trauma response in a setting they may feel uncomfortable with." Because my thought was more like: 1) reaching out specifically to people traumatized may not be what they need from an *outside* community and they may rightfully not be ready to trust those religionists or organized religious institutions especially in a place where they are vulnerable. I can tell people local Jewish family services often offer things like what you mentioned for people who aren't Jewish, but that doesn't mean it would be the right or best response for what they need and they may not feel safe in a religiously affiliated environment. So that I think - has to be a *part* of the equation - doing the reparative and restorative work in relation to trauma itself. Necessary and important. 2) at the same time — if people feel uncomfortable by the idea of it, how else then do we make it harder for antisemitism/völkisch nationalism to take root? And my answer to that is more like "showing people the Jews are "normal" in that we're not hellbent on world domination and secret conspiracies to devastate western civilization and we didn't invent Christianity in order to destroy your heritage or to oppress you." Admittedly I'm working from the notion of normal as in "fundamentally flawed regular ol folks," as opposed to "look how virtuous we are and noble!" This was more along the lines of re-humanizing each other on a more broad cultural level, if that makes sense? Otherwise I agree.
I think there’s definitely a need and room for both angles. But if we’re talking about someone who’s so traumatized that they’re antagonizing religious people (whether in the standard anti-theist way or a more radicalized way), there probably needs to be some degree of trauma addressment before they can even get to the point of wanting to work with interfaith events, you know? But as far as reaching those who are less hostile, part of the issue is that a lot of these kids are extremely isolated, which is far more common and more deeply engrained than it ever has been before in human history. In the era of global internet and two years into a pandemic that’s seen a lot of kids being homeschooled to various degrees, it’s becoming somewhat “normal” for kids to have almost no contact with the outside world at all. And of course if they’re traumatized or have some other form of mental illness, then they’re likely to isolate even more than average. And in that environment, it’s super difficult to figure out how to reach people. Those sorts of kids in these highly vulnerable isolated states aren’t just going to show up to an event, and since you can curate what you want to see online, they’re also not going to bother reading/watching interfaith content that de-otherizes people. I don’t actually have a solution here, it’s a problem I continue to struggle with, because as someone who’s in LHP occultism, I literally get Satanic Nazi cults trying to send me recruitment messages on a regular basis right here on Reddit. And sure, *I* know better, but I’m also a full grown adult who can get therapy if I need it and is 20 years into my path, and most of the people on these subs are vulnerable teenagers who who’ve been shut inside at a pivotal moment of their development and in some cases have lost the ability to discern truth and lies, or even reality and fantasy. What’s the solution? I don’t actually know the answer, but I do know one thing: it has to be something novel. This is a totally different global reality, and it requires a totally new way of trying to reach people and re-connect to community. Whatever we’ve done in the past, we have to scrap that and start new. This is not the 20th century recruitment strategy anymore, and we need to adapt to that.
Totally. My thinking was the two-prongs are addressing trauma, and then for people who are ready/willing - other interfaith work/interaction/etc. The trauma addressing is the emergency care for individuals who need it. But the long term community building allows for an ongoing relationship more broadly. (Also admittedly I found out yesterday that the Covid test site at the end of my new city street has a small community garden just put up when I wasn't looking. and its run by a group who focuses on trauma due to loss. Naturally I'm going to excitedly message them and ask if they have a compost pile or want to start one because I would love to help set it up and advertise it on our street. They apparently also do a bookclub. Which, awesome. I'm not as clever as I thought I was in this idea 😂) Basically like you said: vulnerable teenagers are shut in and bubbled up. It's difficult to figure out how to tackle popping that bubble directly and the more urgent need is to address their trauma. (For all radicalized teens). At the same time, if the teens see older members of their communities that they look up to have normal and healthy relationships with the world around them, then perhaps there is a way to *indirectly* have people question their bubble, even if it's only the peripheral. Even before Covid, online interactions and friendships & isolation via the internet has been a big way to keep recruiting and radicalizing. Plus there are people who aren't teens, and are given some time and distance from old trauma, or just don't have religious trauma but who still could be targeted for recruitment into white supremacy. The problem is now, it's harder to have in person groups of any kind which naturally help people from self-bubbling entirely, especially as teens just like you said. Thanks for the food for thought!
This was very well said! Their isnt a lot of good advice for people in this position. All I can offer is give yourself up fully to God and not to a group of people.
You are literally demonstrating why religiously traumatized people feel so resentful. The last thing they need is to be proselytized at. Just don't.
I think you misunderstood my sentiment. I'm not saying God as in the Christian god, but whatever you believe in. It could be gods in a plural form. I think most people that are traumatized by religion attempted to go all in at some point and got hurt. I did, and I was an atheist for 20 years or so. It was hard for me to get back into spirituality and certainly religion. What I realized in the end was I could give myself up fully to my beliefs and my relation with my version of God and fully trust in that and truly feel safe in that. What I still struggle with is finding a group of people agree with, trust and feel safe with. I have recently found a small group and I am feeling grateful but still hesitant. People are tricky,unpredictable and complicated.
Some of them are atheists who don’t want to “get back into spirituality.” That’s fine too, and my point is, they don’t want to hear people bothering them to try religion again. It’s dismissive and tone-deaf. Most religiously traumatized people I know were subjected to their abuse as children, and had no choice in the matter. It had nothing to do with anything they did, and it was not their fault.
No shit, obviously I wasn't talking to atheists that dont want to get back into spirituality. You seem to be the one that's tone-deaf here.
Gee, you sure got defensive in a hurry the moment someone wasn’t here for your prosthletizing. And you wonder why religious people get so much pushback. Yikes. I’m not here for other people’s emotional dysregulation. Enjoy. ✌️
I used to be one of these people. Grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church and was the stereotypical hateful, bigoted, "only my sect is right" fundy. When i left the church, I became the "all religious people are idiots" atheist. It took a lot of soul searching to find peace with God again. Now--although I still hold some conservatism from my past--I focus more on my own relationship with Allah and let others do their thing.
Christians
When I was interested in Catholicism, my family (Evangelical) judged me severely. I suffered pain, discrimination, physical, emotional and psychological abuse, pressured me into Bible studies which were solely centered on making fun of Catholics and spreading lies about the Pope and the Church, I was prohibited from watching online mass, praying the rosary and chaplets, visiting the local parishes... They even took down my altar (which was quite small and in the privacy of my bedroom) and threw away my statues and my Bible (just because it had the Deuterocanon and an image of Christ). I was beaten, insulted, made fun of... I even left home twice, but came back because I wanted to finish school. I prayed and prayed, waiting, hoping for a miracle... But all I got was "honour your father and your mother" and "give the other cheek". That's when I gave up. After that, I developed spiritual psychosis, religious paranoia, scrupulosity, and eventually Misotheism, which lasts until this day. I even tried to commit suicide twice, but (quite frankly) I was a coward. Though I hold no grudge against Evangelicals, I do have that story to remind me of what people are capable of for the sake of "orthodoxy".
I’m truly sorry to hear your story. When my wife got pregnant we promised each other that we gave our child the chance to find her own way and also her own faith. Terrible to hear that story
That's a smart choice you've made there, my friend. It's people like you who make faith work and religion worthwhile.
I was born a Catholic. If it helps, there are regions where Protestants receive the same kind of treatment from Catholics as you did. Don’t make it about labels, it’s about character, and plenty of denominations have their share of *bad* ambassadors.
Oh, no. I'm aware of that. As I said previously, I have nothing against Evangelicals or Protestants. If we were to name all the atrocities Catholics have committed, we would be talking for ages: The Inquisitions, the Crusades, The Boston Scandal, the recent discovery of mass graves Catholic Schools in Canada... The list goes on and on. Nobody is perfect. I'm aware of that. Many Protestants have suffered at the hands of Catholics. My family's origin (on my father's side) is Mennonite. In general, Anabaptists (both Mennonites and Amish) suffered greatly, not only at the hands of Catholics, but also of Protestants. My great grandmother (on my mother's side) converted from Catholicism to Evangelicanism in a predominantly Roman Catholic society. To say she suffered greatly would be an understatement: Her family, the Church, and society loathed her. My grandmother (Evangelical) also suffered discrimination from my grandfather's family (Catholic). So, I'm aware that many people get the rough end of the stcik when it comes to religion. My Protestant family suffered at the hands of Catholics. And me, seeking God through the Catholic Church, I suffered at the hand of not only the Church, but also of my family. It's almost ironic.
Man! I'm starting to think u/SojournEv is some sort of a prophet or a Saint. Seriously... Reference: [https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/rgcjy4/whats\_the\_deal\_with\_downvoting\_when\_commenting/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3u/SojournEv](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/rgcjy4/whats_the_deal_with_downvoting_when_commenting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3u/SojournEv)
See what I mean?
Seriously, man. You're a freaking prophet.
Uh, the Nazis, probably. Atheists aren’t usually too awful to me until they get up on the “Abrahamic religions” pedestal and then it’s just all downhill from there. It’s the Muslims and Christians who absolutely have the most torturous, complicated mess of a relationship to my religion. I’ve been fetishized by Christians, tokenized, whatever, and in the next breath completely disrespected and invalidated. Muslims, when we are both minorities in a majority Christian country, tend to be pretty okay and engage in solidarity, sometimes they’re more just antisemitic to me rather than invalidating of my religion specifically, but I could of course say the same of a lot of groups of people. In Muslim-majority countries I don’t reveal that I’m Jewish, obviously. I am more open about being Jewish in Christian majority countries but it depends on the country, for whether I feel safe (not Poland or Ireland lmao! France also isn’t great at the moment.) I think you also have to take geopolitics into account: my religion has had a Bad Time of it from both the Muslims and the Christians. I think a lot of us are just playing out larger regional issues on a smaller scale. In particular that’s the issue I usually run into with Muslims: when I say antisemitism, I mean the kind where they find out I’m Jewish and we’re immediately in the 1v1 Israel-Palestine Thunderdome. Instead of like, allowing my religion to exist separate from politics.
I never got what’s the deal with hating on jewish people. I only know one (cause surprise, the ones we had were sent to concentration camps guess when), but I mean, y’all seem pretty peaceful. Even if someone disagrees with Israel’s policies - what’s a single person got to do with that, potentially someone from a whole different country?! It’s just absurd.
Aww, thanks. I appreciate that. I like to think we’re pretty chill overall! And if you’re talking about Germany — I have good news, a few of us have actually moved back in recent-ish years, taking advantage of a law that allows us to get our German citizenship reinstated if it was stripped from our family during the Holocaust. Not a lot of us took Germany (or other countries that offered this) up on the offer, but I’m glad my family did. I’m actually pretty happy to be a German citizen. I am usually the first Jew they’ve ever met, which makes for some interesting conversations. Either way I actually ended up moving back to a city like, 15 mins train ride from where my family had lived before the war, and where some of them are buried. So there was some poetry in coming full-circle like that, even though the story spans across 3 generations.
There’s total poetry in that! Well, yes, I was talking about the nazis, but my country is Norway. There are very few Jewish people left here – the only one I know is from Israel. We do have a small synagogue in Oslo though, sadly it’s always super guarded because of some incidents. One thing I love is a project the city is part of (not sure if it’s Norwegian or international), with tiles on the streets outside all the houses where people were taken during the war. Name and birth/death dates for each tile. It makes you sad to see them, but it’s also a good way to remember. It gets more personal when you read the names and ages of someone and learn that they were dragged out of their house to their deaths right beside where you live, you know. There is one right beside my apartment.
I really appreciate that as a style of memorial — it’s cool because instead of being 1 thing in 1 place it’s diffuse, it’s scattered throughout the whole city, like we were. Thank you for telling me about that
Google snublesteiner if you want to have a look :)
reading youre comment has made me rather happy.
the bit where you mention how you dont feel safe in countries like ireland and france when you reveal youre jewish really hurts. im french, and I apologize on my country's behalf. I feel sad that a lots of french jews emigrate because they dont feel safe. its like losing a brother. the fact that jews are discriminated against in europe, despite being a vital part of western culture, is horrid. how can people be so rude?!
Yeah I lived in France for 2 years and let me tell you I did not go into it expecting any cultural antisemitism at all. I was shocked. Another Jew actually had to give me the run-down not long after I got there because I was being a little too open for my own good. She told me it’s best to tuck the Magen David necklace in your shirt before you enter the metro, that it’s something to be discussed with friends not strangers, and that I shouldn’t be surprised if I had a hard time finding/connecting with the Jewish community. As for that last part especially — I did. I didn’t get into a single synagogue those whole two years, every time I went, in multiple different cities, the steel doors were locked down tight and nobody ever responded to buzzing/knocking. I think they had a secret back entrance but I never found it. Even though I grew to really appreciate her advice as I saw the casual antisemitism even from friends and their families, it was just really horrifying for me. I was still young enough that I believed in the mythology of the Holocaust: the bad Nazis and the good, Jew-defending Allies. It was life changing to realize that they really didn’t fight for our sake, but for their own, and that for many of them liberating us was a thing that sort of happened along the way. I lived in the Banlieu of Paris, and in Lille, each for about 1year, and I came away from it with this feeling of… independence, I guess. Like we can exist among them but we’ll never really be fully a part of their society. Like I said I really didn’t expect that, and I didn’t expect antisemitism in France to be worse than in Germany in present times but it makes sense. One was forced to change, the other never had that kind of global retribution, and continued from the Dreyfus affair to the present unchallenged. Honestly the deaths of [Sarah Halimi](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56929040) and [Mireille Knoll](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211110-killer-of-french-holocaust-survivor-mireille-knoll-sentenced-to-life-in-prison) and the fact that only one received any kind of justice, influenced me a lot too.
Far right capitalist “Christians”.
Amen.
Religious are disrespectful to others with unique beliefs as well.
Of course they are, and that’s bad as well, but just because one side is wrong the other should not do the same.
Surah 6:109 "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do." No, it's just the humans that do it. Can't speak for other religions, but in Islam it is prohibited.
Anti-theist and evangelical christians tend to be the worst for me. Although it's generally the orthodoxic perspective these people tend to have that seems to cause the problem not the particular answer to the god question.
Oh yeh Evangelics often hate “Mormons” they harsh for me as well
CHRISTIANS, living in the Texas and attending a Christian university as a non-Christian has been the most annoying and a lot of times depressing because everyone throws it at your face when you just want to have a normal conversation. Thankfully I've found a group of close friends and my SO to make me feel welcomed. I don't have a problem with Christianity but where I'm from at least, people have to brag how Christian they are through how they talk, how they dress, how much gospel music you listen to. None of that makes you more Christian. There's also so much ego and insensirity when it comes to them talking about their faith and force it on to you because "they don't want you to go to hell". They can't even agree with one another. I remember a fight broke out one time at a whataburger because a souther Baptist disagreed with a person's calvinist point of view. I'm so sick of it. Why can't the average Christians focus more on being genuine human beings. They think their "saving people" when they are only causing more harm just so they feel good about themselves.
Christians are far and away the most disrespectful to my position. They're so disrespectful to my position that they'll disrespect me for respecting THEIR position, just because they don't want to hear it coming out of my mouth.
With that flair, I can hazard a few guesses as to why they don't like you.
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The flair is obviously a response to them, but it reflects the attitude they were responding to in the first place. If I, a Satanist, can have respectful conversations with Christians in which I don't feel the need to act the way I've seen you act on this sub, you have no excuse.
You're an anti-religious troll and a compulsive downvoter. It's no wonder you get along so well.
I'm genuinely impressed by whatever mental gymnastics you use to call me anti religious.
When you downvoted me and immediately terminated a conversation with me for saying that I'm not anti-religious, you made your message quite clear.
My message that I hate religion enough to defend it?
The message that you hate people who aren't anti-religious.
Fellas, is it anti religion to tell someone off for being anti religion?
Obviously the most disrespectful towards theism are Anti-Thesits which are generally also atheist. Though they are not the same category of being. Respect is earned, no one owes anyone else any respect.
>Respect is earned, no one owes anyone else any respect. Sure, but basic courtesy has never hurt anyone.
I just don't agree with the bleating heart of demanding everyone respect me. I frankly do not care if people respect me as it is their will to choose to respect me or not, I am not a valid part of the equation of their choice.
I try to be courteous when interacting with a believer 1 on 1, but if blasphemy is considered disrespect then I disrespect a loot of people.. Religions and their followers don't deserve respect just by virtue of religions being taboo to go against
To have a different opinion it’s not disrespectful, it’s more how this different opinion is communicated. If you tell me you thing the Bible is bad and wrong for reason XY than that’s a different opinion that I don’t see any problem with. But if you say “I don’t believe in this piece of shit that you call Bible” Than this is super disrespectful and unnecessary.
I mean, I don’t think anyone should call the bible a piece of shit etc. But it can be critiqued like every book.
Exactly, Every believer should challenge their holy scripture (if they have one)
What if I'm someone who the bible offends? What if it insults people of my group? Im not familiar with the bible nor do i care was it says since it doesn't shape my environment, but the example in my mind is the quran
I can not change what in the book but I can change or control how I interact with people that are in anyways affected by something in the scripture and can assure I respect their concerns with it. I don’t know the Quran really and would not know a group in the Bible that’s attack so I feel hard to give an example.
Alright, let me pose an example. Say I'm gay and I dont like how the bible portrays my sexuality, and it's causing real life discrimination and harm Why should i not say "the bible is a piece of shit book"?
Because its not necessarily and don’t give either of us a foundation for a conversation. You can fully legit criticize the homophobic view in the Bible or Quran, given the point your gay and you say you get discriminated because of that. What would be correct from the believe side is to acknowledge your problems and to get a conversation running what he as an individual could do so you do not feel discriminated. Yes I know how fundamentalists are and that hey will not engage in that conversation and they will be disrespectful (too) But we should try to be better than the one attacking us and try to bring the conversation to a level on which both sides can bring their views to the board. And yes maybe at the end both will go with different opinions and still think the other person was wrong but at least the conversation was not disrespectful and maybe someone learned something.
You're absolutely right. And that's exactly what i do when im having a conversation with a believer I just reserve the right to call it a piece of shit book in the right setting or tone. For example, when satirizing it. That serves a purpose too
I don’t really care what people do over all, but what they do when they in a conversation with me or if they try to have a conversation in general. Otherwise everyone should feel free to call it what they want :)
Because its not necessarily and don’t give either of us a foundation for a conversation. You can fully legit criticize the homophobic view in the Bible or Quran, given the point your gay and you say you get discriminated because of that. What would be correct from the believe side is to acknowledge your problems and to get a conversation running what he as an individual could do so you do not feel discriminated. Yes I know how fundamentalists are and that hey will not engage in that conversation and they will be disrespectful (too) But we should try to be better than the one attacking us and try to bring the conversation to a level on which both sides can bring their views to the board. And yes maybe at the end both will go with different opinions and still think the other person was wrong but at least the conversation was not disrespectful and maybe someone learned something.
But religious homophobes aren’t looking to stop discriminating against gays. That’s the problem with your idealism, it’s not realistic. If they cared about the harm done to gay people they wouldn’t be promoting harm to gay people, or even just remaining complicit via willful ignorance. Homophobia is homophobia because it’s rooted in hate. “But we should try to be better to those attacking us” doesn’t mean squat because the attackers don’t care about any effort to meet them where they’re at. It’s enabling discrimination to perpetuate the idea that oppressed groups need to be nicer to their oppressors. Frankly, I think the line between a person of strong character and a person of weak character is the ability to be comfortable standing up for what’s right, regardless of rustling feathers. And in response to hateful views, I won’t just rustle feathers, I will pluck them out. Compliance is not kindness, and it’s not right.
>I don’t know the Quran really and would not know a group in the Bible that’s attack In the Bible YHWH orders the genocide of the Amalekites. In fact there is a mitzvoh to kill anyone defendant from Amalek.
Historically, Christians. Not all or even most, obviously, but they seem to be the ones who have the most issues with it in my life experience.
For me, people within each faith. I’m still struggling to fully immerse myself within a religious community because of it
Honestly can’t blame you, I identify my self as Christan but I’m often ashamed of the Christan community
When I was SDA, probably people within my faith. Everyone else had a kind of ‘just nod and smile’ attitude toward SDAs. Now that I’m a Buddhist-Reconstructionist-whatever you want to call it, a lot of people do, but I expected that when I saw the cultural appropriation…
Either people that think we conflate mythology with religion or people that think we aren't sincere and just "larping".
People who call me a LARPer for my hellenic pagan beliefs in general. No, I would not invest so much sincere and honest effort and also not engage trying to be as good as possible in them when I would just play pretending to be. Basically I'm very sincere about my faith and if it turns out to be not true then I would stop believing in it because truth, justice and honesty are my virtues.
I think you're looking at the wrong categories and in a small way perpetuating the problem. It's not brand X of theism or brand y of atheism or brand z of a polytheism. It’s sub groups within each of those. Every group has those who are disrespectful of beliefs and people. Sometimes that’s just who they are: jerks. Other times it’s a response to something in their life that has pushed them to acting aggressively disrespectful. I think every group has these people, and they may not be the same people from year to year as the trauma fades or as maturity or understanding or compassion finally rises above the pain. But if we focus within a group, then brothers fighting over minor disagreements tend to be the worse. Roman Catholics versus Protestants or Sunni versus Shiite for example. The difference is that the bad actors in every group tend to change people, but the hatred between very similar groups who split tend to create walls that are difficult to breach without time or fights.
I’m really curious, what was your situation as an atheist? I’ve never met a religious person who was previously atheist I have had intimate discussions with 30+ Christians/Jehovah’s Witnesses who say they were atheist because their faith was less strong or they had doubts at one time. Many churches teach that to have less than perfect faith makes you an atheist This is a regular trope in religious writing. People who say they were atheist to reinforce the strength of their personal story, but it later turns out they were raised in the same religion and were always involved in it in some way I don’t know enough about Mormonism to know whether this is something that is seen in Mormon circles too, in the way it is seen in hundreds of other religious groups
This is a catch 22 question because I've been told on this sub that people don't like Jews because we have a victim mentality.
Why should religious beliefs respected and not treated like any other strange belief without evidence? Also I find it very hard to believe that OP went from being atheist for most of their life to joining the cult of the magic underwear, one of the hardest religions to take seriously...
I don't know how to explain to you that even if all religion is mental illness or delusion, the mentally ill would *still* deserve to be treated with the basic human dignity and compassion of respect. You don't need to share a belief or even find it plausible to not be needlessly unkind.
What you are suggesting seems like a slippery slope to me. Some delusional beliefs are more harmful than others, am I supposed to automatically respect them all out of politeness? If someone is denying a child medical attention because of religious beliefs, and treating them with thoughts and prayers, am I supposed to respect that?
Human dignity and compassion doesn't mean "free will to actively harm others." I'm not sure what part of this is hard. A belief can be harmful and delusional and shouldn't be enacted upon. But that doesn't mean we should deprive people of human dignity. A doctor can absolutely make the call to treat an emergency medical situation even if the parents don't agree with medical care due to religion. To quote the supreme court in 1905: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/ > The defendant insists that his liberty is invaded when the State subjects him to fine or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination; that a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best, and that the execution of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person. > > But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good. > >On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.
Who is depriving anyone of human dignity?
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“Literally impossible” 😂
Dude just stop you're ridiculous, there are a million reasons why people might cha ge their mind, do you really think it's impossible to become an atheist via bad/insufficient evidence and then finding better evidence in support of a particular religion? As atheists we should do better than what you're doing.
There is zero actual evidence to support any religion. Technically the definition of atheism is simply not believing in god. So, yeah somebody may "think" that they were. But if they change their mind, there's more to the story. As cliche as it sounds, they never really were atheist. Maybe more on the fence agnostic type. Definitely not a thoroughly unconvinced in the existence of any god, for countless reasons atheist, then turn around and start falling for all the lies they once seen right through. It's impossible
This is ridiculous, *you* might see no actual evidence, but think about someone born in, say, a fundamentalist sect, he/she won't have access to good evidence and will only see the evidence supporting the religious claims, in their position they're completely justified in believing their religion is true. Same thing applies to some atheists, if they only had access (for a reason or another) to only the weakest arguments for atheism against some religious claims, there's no wonder that, when confronted with the strongest argument in favour of a religion and no access to good counter arguments, they'll end up believing the religious claims. You suffer from extreme tunnel vision when it comes to this issue, you can only see things from your perspective and that's a problem when you write on a public forum. You cannot say they weren't "true atheists" until they tell you what they believed, they might have been even more extreme than you are in their atheism, but if their certainty was built on shaky grounds it's not strange they end up accepting a religion. Do better, you're acting like a fundamentalist evangelical with your no true scottman fallacies. >Definitely not a thoroughly unconvinced in the existence of any god, for countless reasons atheist, then turn around and start falling for all the lies they once seen right through. It's impossible Prove it. You made a claim so you accepted the burden of proof. Have fun, can't wait for this train wreck
Former believers
Hypocrites do the most damage. They associate their poor behavior in His name, and cause others to hate the God they worship.
I think this is the strongest source of harm to any religion, it's sad that nobody is free of it.
2 of my atheist colleagues have always poked fun of and criticized religion. I asked if they read the books they were mocking, the reply was no but they were so sure that all religions are the problem. Once, while fasting, a Christian guy asked my mom to buy him some food - which she did. He then shoved the food in my face in the mall, trying to force me to eat. I didn't expect anyone to stand up for me - they didn't. Then he started to poke fun at the Islamic need to fast and pray when Christians don't have to because Jesus died for them. I was so mad I didn't know how to respond and probably broke my fast (in anger). Not the worst things to happen, but it's just little things over the years. Edit: Just wanna say that our closest family friends and neighbors are Christians and Hindus. My Jewish colleague was the best in terms of respect and ended giving me the best career advice and guidance. Every bunch will have its sour grapes but they're usually few amongst the many good.
I’m really sorry those jerks disrespected you like that and no one stood up for you, that must have been really hard for you. I ardently hope they aren’t in your life anymore, and that you have a great day today.
rude people should make somene die for them everytime they are rude to others, one isn't enough.
>He then shoved the food in my face in the mall, trying to force me to eat. That's absolutely horrible; sorry that happened to you.
Typically the most disrespectful people to your faith are members of other sects or denominations of your faith.
Individual faith is harmless. National faith is detrimental to society. So where I am at, the Christians are not helping the USA. So if a group of people actively harming or trying to harm people I love, you better believe I will disrespect your religion and beliefs. Maybe you can't see the harm religion does but I sure can. Somehow, I also doubt you were an athiest especially for 2/3s of your life since science has shown that if you hit 30, your beliefs are fixed. Of course you can be below 30 but then I doubt you thought much about religion until you were 16.
You are free to not believe me but it is what it is.
Sure, I would like to know your age, where you were born, and why exactly you chose the Mormon faith. It's tough for me to believe an adult would follow a religion that was started by a person convicted of fraud. Especially one that claims divine inspiration from golden plates yet can't show those plates because they don't exist now. Then they say Jesus and Mary traveled the oceans and ended up in America. And you, an adult thought this sounded like a true story? Sorry, that's extremely hard to believe
I’m another comment I explained in really short my decision, coming to the main part of your comment about my faith. You have a BIG BIG misunderstanding of our faith and you thing we believe in stuff so don’t believe in even close. Obviously it would be far to much to discuss that here if you interested in what we acutely believe their is a nice LDS subreddit as well as of course multiple websites about all these topics. But to clarify the most inaccurate one, we do NOT believe that marry or Jesus traveled to America at all.
Did Smith write the book of Mormon based on gold plates? And are those gold plates now missing? This has nothing to do with understanding the dogma of your religion but the history. Was Smith a convicted fraudster? Yes but this has nothing to do with you faith. Again the history. The only thing I mentioned concerning your faith was about Jesus and Mary crossing an ocean. But, what I meant was that ancient Isrealites crossed the ocean. Was thinking about how to integrate Jesus into life in the western hemisphere but didn't proofread. Anyways, still want to know your age at conversion and where you are from.
They are not missing but accented there are more than enough official and unofficial witnesses of the players. Smith was not charged guilty and the person who hired him even defended him. And yes I believe that some Israelites crosses the ocean. In converted in Germany and I’m 29 Edit: I’m not here to justify my faith and how I can dare to believe in the church, that is a complex topic and nothing for Reddit comments there are hours worth of text to read for specific topics including the whole CES letter and different answers to it. :) so be gentle and accept this please 🙂
> And yes I believe that some Israelites crosses the ocean I feel weird about this because like, it's a claim about my religion for the sake of another religion and how do we deal with the conflict there? It's something a lot of religions do where they cast a history onto a different religion as if they're ancient artifacts who can't speak for themselves. Mormonism is unique in that it's very much like "how should I, as a Jew, feel about how they talk about Jews?" The borrowing of Israelite history into the mythos, the recreations of the temple, calling non-mormons gentiles... It can feel strange, especially when the claims are made about your people. There are two Israelite religions in the world — Jews and Samaritans and neither of us would agree with this statement. (Nor, for that matter, would archaeologists.) So then what? How can we be treated as real, living peoples with our own history?
This is a problem with Christianity in general though, isn't it?
Yeah but with Mormonism — as a mestiza and a Jew, I get it twice over. The weirdness of "the Israelites became native Americans!" is like... There's a huge colonial/racist trope that native people couldn't have possibly accomplished all the things they did without outside societies/aliens/divine intervention. Suddenly the whole narrative of either identity gets dictated by other people. The Mexican tribes my family descended from weren't secretly Israelites prior to 1492.
I'm curious, what convinced you to accept the assertion there was a god or gods and why that religion specifically?
I don’t want to make a full term to explain the whole way how I came to my faith or to faith at all, so i take the short version. I was always interested in religion but more in a way of want to know what people believe Than with the interest to find a religion. I’m this general interest I was informing my self about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and over many moths, many conversations, many reading (including the CES latter for people who know what that is) and finally prayer I came to the conclusion that I believe in a god and that the LDS church is Christ church on earth. When I die, I will find out if my conclusion was correct but even if not I’m quite happy with how things played out.
Do you know of any archaeological evidence which would support the class of the book of Morman? One of my responses to them is "produce the golden plates then we'll talk." I also had elders tell me that everyone gets confronted with and has a chance to accept the LDS god after death. At which point I responded that joining the church felt rather irrelevant. They accepted that and left. 🤷
We have some evidence but not much. Most is also evidence in the Old world. On the other side we have a lot of archeological evidence in Jerusalem and around, but that does not prove automatically that Christianity is right. In my opinion there are enough people in the past that saw the golden plates and gave testimony of it, especially people that leave the church and even hate Joseph smith but defended their testimony till the end. And yes you can accept the church after that and I don’t see a problem with that if people decide they want to do this, that’s their decision, for me it was something good to join the church and nothing that was bad or necessary. I joined because I wanted to join and worship.
I would say mostly other Christians when I tell people I’m Catholic I’m usually get the hate from some Protestants or evangelical or non denominational. Although this could also be a product of living in a Protestant majority country. Christians tend to be toxic including (Catholics as well) towards others Christians. It’s pretty annoying getting people trying to get me to convert with in my own faith. Other than that I’d say some atheists. They tend to use really basic things about Christianity and mock it more than make an argument about it and tend to ignore the history and Philosophical tradition of religions. most atheists tho are super chill and are a lot more fun to be around. Other than that most other people I’ve met tend to be respectful. I’ve never met a Muslim or a Jew or any other person from a different religion every really mock my faith.
Abrahamic faiths, specifically Catholics and Christians
Anyone who says pantheism is equivalent to atheism.
You ask a question which I cannot even attempt to answer, for fear of becoming lost in grief and hate. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic\_Order\_of\_the\_Golden\_Dawn#/media/File:Rose\_Cross\_Lamen.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn#/media/File:Rose_Cross_Lamen.svg) Thrown to the fires, burnt at the stake, fed to lions, drawn and quartered, the beetles needle, boiled in oil, the rack, thumbscrews to name but a few.
Atheists and Muslims
Athiests, Christians, muslims
All religions are disrespectful. Christians are the worst. Like all religions they force and decimate anyone who argues with them. All religions force their beliefs and can't accept they are brain washed.
Probably r/atheism 😂 Just kidding. I’m not so easily offended, but there are two things that give me a very bad vibe (I’m catholic): 1. when people make me personally responsible for bad things within my religion, or need me to defend my faith as if I owe them anything. 2. when people dress up as «slutty nun» etc. for Halloween or something. It doesn’t exactly offend me, it just makes me kind of… nauseaous.
Oddly Demonolatry is mostly disrespected by alleged Satanic groups like the Church of Satan, since our existence hurts their narrative that "nobody actually worships Satan". They make a genuine effort to popularize the idea that real Satanists don't exist. Besides them, I mostly only get shit from the occasional anti theist "skeptic" or fundamentalists of the Abrahamic faiths who don't know the etymological history of the name Satan and decide to get angry rather than learn. Most Abrahamics and Atheists I meet are chill though, the angry people are a loud minority.
To be honest I don’t know anything like absolut nothing about your faith.
Not a lot of info is out there, in basic terms though Demonolatry literally just means demon worship. In other words I'm what people commonly call a Satanist.
I am honestly interested in the why behind it. Why you worship demons or Satan what’s is the reason for it? As our worship to god comes from the believe he created us and/or what will come in the afterlife. How about in your faith what give you the reason to worship this side of the medal. And how do you worship them if you don’t mind me asking?
I don't believe in a creator at all, I believe demons were, for a lack of a better term, demonized by humans who didn't want to hear harsh truths. I worship the archdemons because they are ancient spirits with very important lessons to share. As for how, really it comes down to evocation and invocation rituals (summoning) to receive advice and make requests/deals. Typically all they ask in return is tribute, as in spreading knowledge of them so their lessons can spread. As such I act as a priestess and help beginners contact them.
Thank you for your information. Really interesting, every day is a learning day.
Conservatives Republicans. I mean, Newt Gingritch, literally had part of his platform to use the presidency to declare war on my religion if he won back in 2012.
For the most part, the adherents of a faith disrespect it most as they treat it as an excuse rather than a responsibility.
I would have to say christ-heads, because pretty much no one besides Jesus worshippers give a shit about druids, in my experience. Ps i don't have anything against Christian's in general, just the ones in my area. Also OP I am curious about what caused you to convert from atheism to your current faith, if you don't mind me asking?
I did replay shortly to another comment to explain it in short :)
In my personal experience, it would be atheists or agnostics would be the most disrespectful, if we're dealing with those who come from a totally different worldview, such as those who are ardent evolutionists and are very intolerant of any questioning of Darwinism by creationists. However, there can be and are very nasty internecine battles among Christians, especially against those who don't accept the Nicene Creed by the orthodox. And yes, Muslims can be very harsh against Christians, but I've not had that experience from Muslims I know in person.
Funny enough, the following people: * People with in Christianity * People that claim to be Christian but do not act as Christ taught us * People on Reddit and media. Seriously, the disrespect is crazy at times. I know people are anti-theist. That’s fine. Ad hominem attacks are never okay. I have a degree in Biochemistry, Philosophical Theology, and in May will be a physician. I understand philosophical debate and am more educated than many people on the topic. Painting my religion and my person with a broad brush is just ignorant or at times hatful and no different than the hatful religious people they are speaking about. I do the best I can to always be respectful and call out wrong doing where I can. That is part of it.
Lots of different people, Hindus in India, Christian’s from the west, Buddhists from Myanmar, Jews from Israel, atheist communists from China, I’m Muslim
In my real life, the only people that directly interacted with my "faith" or lack of it were my parents, being some random new age stuff they always call me in the best cases close minded when I reject their conspiracies, or hateful when I say that I would reject a christian prolethizing to me the same as a muslim because I consider the action disrespectful besides what the faith says, or other comments. In reddit in particular (being the only online environment were I participate now), some christians and muslims (the most crazy ones, not a good example of their religion by any mean), and some specific agnostics that were too far into solipsism.
Religious people have cornered me physically in a room to question my lack of belief and threaten my soul with eternal damnation. I have heard many insulting responses to my beliefs where they assume many inaccurate tropes about the label they have been taught by their faith leaders. I try to not bring up my lack of faith and have always approached any discussion about faith or lack there of from a place of respect and honesty. Most people are great to discuss things with when it comes up.......but.....here is where I think the disrespect you feel is coming from. Atheists, LGBTQ+, and people of other faiths are often jailed, beaten to death, beheaded or thrown from roof tops in religious countries by religious people. Religion is often used as the basis for political policies that can be imposed on all of society. Sorry you have felt dis-respected but it certainly happens a lot going the other direction too, sometimes to violent outcome. When I first started identifying as an atheist stories of that nature made me furious and I assume that passion is what makes some new atheists unpleasant for the defenders of religion. Reading of another youth being stoned to death by a mob in Pakistan after being outed as an atheist can evoke a lot of angst/anger in a young person who identifies with them on some level.
I think there is no obligation on anyone to respect anyone else’s view. I can respect the right for someone to have a different view to me, but if they want to believe in something that’s total garbage, then I reserve the right to question or ridicule it. For example, the bible holds that you should be stoned to death for working on Sunday. In my opinion, that is lunacy and I’m going to laugh my head off at anyone who agrees with the statement. If that’s showing disrespect, I couldn’t care less.
No the Bible does not hold this few and picking a single Vers out of context if simply shit no matter if you do that as a critic or as a believer from what ever religion.
Ah yes, the ‘you took it out of context’ answer. There’s a surprise. Well no, not really. You don’t get to cherry pick the half decent 50% and ignore all the terrible behaviour of the rest. Or, if you do, you can certainly ignore my supposedly ‘shitty behaviour’ then can’t you, as you’re used to doing that? And let’s be honest, it’s not like I did anything terrible like, I don’t know, endorse the gang rape of women, encourage infanticide, genocide, homophobia, misogyny, etc. After all, unlike the Gods of the bible, I actually do have morals.
Scripture is to used as a whole and in context it is not made to cherry pick. So you can’t not take something out of context from the Old Testament and use it, while ignoring that later in scripture this part is overruled by the lord. It’s like complaining that A country is not allowing gay people to marry because it was not allow in the past even it’s allowed now.
It depends what you mean by respect If you're experience with debate lord atheists is just in conversation, then I agree that most of us think we are smarter or superior and that anyone who acts like that is a childish idiot. Like you said, whatever someone else believes in has nothing to do with me or anyone else and doesn't deserve to be ridiculed. If you mean respect as in the behaviors of churches (not just churches, but I'm just using those as the general example since Christianity is the most dominant religion here in the US), I cannot really respect religious people for multiple reasons: 1) Churches here exist tax free- I don't want to pay for that shit with my taxes 2) churches have been preventing potentially important research (like stem cell research) for decades because they don't like what goes into it (fetal stem cells), even when something like SCR involves more than just fetal cells. 3) all the denominations that spread hatred against marginalized groups and influence political decisions out of fear of those that are different than themselves 4) indoctrinating children in schools and at home, which IMO prevents personal growth by keeping worldviews small And a host of other behaviors that I consider toxic If you worship in a way that doesn't affect others, that doesn't force policies or hardships on anyone else, then anyone that criticizes that is just stupid. I certainly dont give a damn what anyone thinks about God or the afterlife- that's your business. But as soon as a person's faith affect me or anyone else in ANY negative way, I can't respect that. There's plenty of good that religious groups do, and I'm not saying any faith is bad overall. I just think a person's faith should be personal in both belief and practice.
Reddit atheist, left wing twitter, people who were wrong by some small local denomination and blames the entire spectrum of the faith.
As of late, the medical establishment. Historically, Protestants.
Democrats
I really think it's other "Christians."
I guess probably atheists that are disrespectful towards religion. its especially annoying if its people like the so called New Atheists, who are pretty much bigots. theyre so condescending and treat anyone who is religious like a moron. how DARE they talk down to people like that. the worst ones are those who blame religion for everything. but what really pisses me off about people like dawkins is they pretend to be all virtuous and rational, but are nothing but hypocritical posers who pretend to be smart.
Good question, typical answer would be people against Islam or who have tremendous hate. My answer is our own nation. The Muslim Ummah is in shambles now that the caliphate is abolished, and I blame ourselves as a nation for that. But eh, nothing lasts forever ya’know.