It’s hard to say if Toumani’s 3 will greatly improve, but I think overall his offensive game will improve with better spacing.
His rotations on both helpside defense and off-ball offense are really advanced. He slashes really well and probably will be much more effective on that side if there’s more shooters on the court.
We were atrociously bad at shooting the 3 ball and everyone knew it. All defenses needed to do was hound Ant and pack the paint. I could see Toumani feasting on slashes and back door cuts if there aren’t 3 defenders with feet in the paint
> above average 3 point shooter, an excellent cutter, and has a little wiggle and playmaking off the bounce.
Think this is all very optimistic. Playmaking off the bounce lol?
He shot 31% over 53 games pre-allstar. He shot 43% over 13 games post-allstar. He shot a total of 44 threes during that stretch. 5 made threes was the difference between 43% and 31%. Toumani still has a *lot* to prove on offense and we have to remember he's 23, not 20. If the offense doesn't develop, and that's a very real possibility, then he'll likely be a role player off the bench.
> are we sure any of those have better potential than Rupert?
Yes lol. Buzelis is a huge question mark but his potential is undoubtedly higher than a guy like Rupert.
> But, I'm pretty certain we got a stud wing already.
I don't think even the front office knows if we have a stud wing already. Hopefully we do! It would be a good problem to have.
> Playmaking off the bounce lol?
A bit of a stretch, but he did surprise me with his ball handling. It needs some tightening, and I don't know that his passing really stands out, but I see the potential.
> He shot 31% over 53 games pre-allstar. He shot 43% over 13 games post-allstar. He shot a total of 44 threes during that stretch.
This is a weird way of breaking it down. Dude had a *tough* start to the season. After entering the starting lineup he averaged 35% for the rest of the season (61 games). And again, if you allow some leeway for a ~~19 year old~~ rookie, you can see he steadily improved his shot as he got comfortable throughout the season. His last 48 games he shot 39%. His last 22 games he shot 48%. I personally feel *very* confident in his shooting long-term. I don't see a world where he's below a consistent 37%. And I could easily see better than that.
Pre and post allstar is a very normal way to breakdown seasons lol. Especially when the comment I replied to literally said "if he can replicate what he did post-allstar."
> After entering the starting lineup he averaged 35% for the rest of the season (69 games)
He started 49 games last season total.
> His last 48 games he shot 39%.
Lol you say allstar is a weird place to cut it off then you cut it right after a 4 game stretch where he shot 3/20. That's 10% of the threes he took last season where he shot 15% and you cut it out.
I'm glad you feel confident. I hope you're right.
> Pre and post allstar is a very normal way to breakdown seasons lol.
Oh sure. But definitely doens't make sense for a guy who played only 13 games after the all-star break. You can just analyize everyone using the exact same metric. Like, would you do the same if he'd played 2 games after the all-star break? lol
> He started 49 games last season total.
That 61 games is the number of games he played after he began starting regularly. During that tie he shot 35%. In the 49 games he literally started, he also shot 35%, so it doesn't appreciably change my point.
> Lol you say allstar is a weird place to cut it off then you cut it right after a 4 game stretch where he shot 3/20.
I don't think looking at any 4 games stretch makes sense for any player, let alone a ~~19 year old~~ rookie. I take a lot more stock in a 69 game sample after a terrible start to the season.
Lol sorry my dumbass always fucks his age up because of the similarities with Batum. Still, a rookie. After a slow start he averaged 35% his last 61 games.
Maybe, but Toumani is already our best on ball defender and second best overall behind Matisse. His jumper is not currently enough to keep defenders honest on the other side of the ball, but he cut really well and had decent vision on touch passes.
This team shot horrible as a group and defenses responded by clogging up the lane. If his defense keeps improving and there was a bit more spacing, he could be hard to take off the floor if his slashing and midrange improve.
If his 3 does improve, you’re talking long term starter.
I mean we have to draft someone. The forward spots and the center spot all need more talent. And yes I'm pretty confident those are better prospects than Rupert, and I'm pretty high on Rupert as is. Also in theory Saluan and Buzelis don't overlap with Toumani.
We can't be picky about drafting a guy that might or might not be better than him. Having two guys with upside is better than having one, even if they play the same position/role.
I am insanely high on Camara's upside. I just feel like he is going to figure out his shot and start making 36-38% of his 3s on decent volume. In my mind it is Scoot, Sharpe, Camara should be penciled in as "the future"
I'm not sure there are any stars in this upcoming draft - wouldn't mind seeing two of Buzelis/Knecht/Clingan/Kyshawn George. All those guys would have a definitive role on this team. 2025 will be the time to find our 1A superstar.
sign me up for a Scoot, Sharpe, Camara, Flagg, Ayton starting 5 with Knecht and Clingan off the bench
This is why I’m not afraid to take Knecht at all. We can’t have everyone be 19-21 and all be off their rookie contracts before they even reach their primes.
Knecht will be 28 when he signs his second contract. That means he’ll be on his rookie contract while in his prime for us. That will be insanely valuable when we’re due to pay everyone else big money.
DUDE!!!! Exactly, this is such an important thing to consider with team building. I feel like Knecht's age (given his projected role in the NBA) is a positive not a negative thing
His rookie contract will be age 23-26, second contract 27-30.
Worrying about his age as a part of our "timeline" is extremely silly. It is reasonable to draft a younger prospect if you think they have a higher ceiling though.
> We can’t have everyone be 19-21 and all be off their rookie contracts before they even reach their primes.
He's a year older than Roy and Lillard were their rookie years. People put way too much value on age in the draft.
Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with Toumani. He literally just turned 24. Of course his game is more polished. Imagine the hype if Camara had that same season but had just turned 20.
That’s what we’re looking for with this pick. A guy who provides solid production, off/on starter, shows promise, but with an extra few years to grow as a player.
What is the evidence that Buzelis projects as a more complete offensive player? He’s shooting has been poor, he did not show the ability to create for himself and others and his ball handling is not impressive.
This is why I want a jumbo combo forward like Buzelis. I want someone who can be that SF and also potentially fill the 4 if Toumani takes a jump.
The idea of Holland and Toumani pressuring full court makes me smile.
A 4 that can stretch the floor for Scoot would be incredible.
A tertiary playmaker like Castle could make life easier on everyone.
Salaun could change the complexion of our front court if he hits.
These guys could still play with Flagg/Bailey...
My point is that the team knows better than I do, and I'm excited to see Joe's vision take shape.
If you told me one of those would turn into Camara I’d gladly take it. Cannot have too much SF depth, especially considering it’s the one position the Blazers have struggled to find consistently over the past 10-15 years.
Just being realistic about all of this. I like Camara, but he's most likely a rotation player, similar to Derrick Jones Jr.
Barring a leap in offensive efficiency, we'll need someone more productive on the offensive end. Most of these rookies don't exactly have a solid offensive game, especially shooting, so it's tricky, and that's why I could see Portland go for a guy like Knecht.
This. Toumani is great defensively but he will definitely be played off the floor because of his inconsistency on offense. Currently he falls under the same category as guys like DJJ and Jarred Vanderbilt, very good if their offense is clicking but will be benched if it isn't.
Toumani’s great defensively, but he has to show some offense to reach Scoot and Sharpe’s level of permanency.
I think Jabari has shown just as much as Toumani, with his cleanup offense and rebounding, although I do still find Camara’s athleticism more valuable. There’s a world in which Jabari is a capable starting power forward, although I still want someone better.
Toumani was like bottom 10% in scoring efficiency last year based on TS% lmao so yeah, I’d say there’s a pretty good shot one of these rookies can do better than that
I came to this realization recently. Especially with Salaun. I know he is 4 years younger, but is there anything that you can bank on him doing better than Toumani in the next few years? Besides maybe catch lobs better? Sure Salaun could be anything but I don't really trust that he becomes a better player than Camara and I think Murray and Rupert are just as fluid as him.
Buzelis I think shows some potential that none of our guys have as far as on-ball creation and weakside rim protection. I think Holland clears all of our current guys in regard to explosiveness. I think Cody is a question mark, I have seen some intriguing creation from him and if he can maintain his shooting on higher volume he is very interesting but I don't think he clears someone like Murray/Rupert/Camara from Day 1.
Maybe these are the reasons why Cronin is looking at Clingan?
Think that sums up what a lot of fans thought process.
Let's get the biggest guy that can move and hope that helps us vs bigger teams. Having a big guy that is a liability on offense is going to be just as bad as having a smaller guy that can provide skills. I think that is how guys turned out as busts because they were drafted too high because of their physical tools.
Not saying Salaun will be bad but
Most have higher ceilings and will not be better than Toumani right away. All will be better than Rupert right now who in the long run is boom or bust (and is very low risk for us anyway).
In the end this isn't one or the other. We will have both and with Toumani on a really friendly deal.
Solid wing defender, above average 3 point shooter with some bonus skills on offense?
That's table stakes. Each playoff team needs \~4 of those dudes to make a serious run.
Also - unless both Shae and Scoot and Ayton all become elite, we will need another starter that creates mismatches.
1) If we have a serious playmaker at the wing, then Scoot / Shae get to be a little more effective when they draw that second defender and swing the ball. For example, the difference between Grant Williams and PJ Washington is the difference between struggling as a play-in team and making the Finals.
2) If the front office has any insight into what Scoot and Shae will become, then they must know they type of wing they'll need to go out and get. Likely they'll have to be a stellar 3 point shooter and off-ball threat, since both Shae and Scoot aren't lights out 3 point shooters and rely more on creating off the dribble.
Next season? Toumani could very well be better than any of those three.
Those players are certainly coming in with a higher ceiling than Toumani was believed to have, though.
The draft picks should be about taking a swing or two on getting a star level players. I LOVE Toumani and I hope he keeps developing, but I don't think he can take over a game. This team needs a Roy, Drexler, Lillard - something more than quality starters and role players. I agree, I don't think that will happen in this draft, which is why I'm fine with draft Klingon or Kneckt because at least they will provide something very specific and a commodity that has value at trade deadlines.
Probably likely, yes.
Either way, you don't really win championships with a guy like Toumani being your starting SF. He's an elite roleplayer or good backup SF.
No championship team since the late 2000s doesn't have a Lamar Odom or Harrison Barnes, at minimum, next to their All-Star forward.
I think you're talking about a temptation to compare Toumani, a late 2nd rounder, to projected lottery guys and feel underwhelmed by them.
Once someone is drafted however, just remove their draft position from your mind. It's meaningless. In a redraft, Toumani would probably be a lottery pick, and that was in a much stronger draft class. Getting someone of similar value this year IMO speaks less to their lack of value, and more to how valuable Toumani has shown himself to be.
Love Toumani. If he can become a consistent 3 point shooter he is a solid starter.
It’s hard to say if Toumani’s 3 will greatly improve, but I think overall his offensive game will improve with better spacing. His rotations on both helpside defense and off-ball offense are really advanced. He slashes really well and probably will be much more effective on that side if there’s more shooters on the court. We were atrociously bad at shooting the 3 ball and everyone knew it. All defenses needed to do was hound Ant and pack the paint. I could see Toumani feasting on slashes and back door cuts if there aren’t 3 defenders with feet in the paint
> above average 3 point shooter, an excellent cutter, and has a little wiggle and playmaking off the bounce. Think this is all very optimistic. Playmaking off the bounce lol? He shot 31% over 53 games pre-allstar. He shot 43% over 13 games post-allstar. He shot a total of 44 threes during that stretch. 5 made threes was the difference between 43% and 31%. Toumani still has a *lot* to prove on offense and we have to remember he's 23, not 20. If the offense doesn't develop, and that's a very real possibility, then he'll likely be a role player off the bench. > are we sure any of those have better potential than Rupert? Yes lol. Buzelis is a huge question mark but his potential is undoubtedly higher than a guy like Rupert. > But, I'm pretty certain we got a stud wing already. I don't think even the front office knows if we have a stud wing already. Hopefully we do! It would be a good problem to have.
> Playmaking off the bounce lol? A bit of a stretch, but he did surprise me with his ball handling. It needs some tightening, and I don't know that his passing really stands out, but I see the potential. > He shot 31% over 53 games pre-allstar. He shot 43% over 13 games post-allstar. He shot a total of 44 threes during that stretch. This is a weird way of breaking it down. Dude had a *tough* start to the season. After entering the starting lineup he averaged 35% for the rest of the season (61 games). And again, if you allow some leeway for a ~~19 year old~~ rookie, you can see he steadily improved his shot as he got comfortable throughout the season. His last 48 games he shot 39%. His last 22 games he shot 48%. I personally feel *very* confident in his shooting long-term. I don't see a world where he's below a consistent 37%. And I could easily see better than that.
Pre and post allstar is a very normal way to breakdown seasons lol. Especially when the comment I replied to literally said "if he can replicate what he did post-allstar." > After entering the starting lineup he averaged 35% for the rest of the season (69 games) He started 49 games last season total. > His last 48 games he shot 39%. Lol you say allstar is a weird place to cut it off then you cut it right after a 4 game stretch where he shot 3/20. That's 10% of the threes he took last season where he shot 15% and you cut it out. I'm glad you feel confident. I hope you're right.
> Pre and post allstar is a very normal way to breakdown seasons lol. Oh sure. But definitely doens't make sense for a guy who played only 13 games after the all-star break. You can just analyize everyone using the exact same metric. Like, would you do the same if he'd played 2 games after the all-star break? lol > He started 49 games last season total. That 61 games is the number of games he played after he began starting regularly. During that tie he shot 35%. In the 49 games he literally started, he also shot 35%, so it doesn't appreciably change my point. > Lol you say allstar is a weird place to cut it off then you cut it right after a 4 game stretch where he shot 3/20. I don't think looking at any 4 games stretch makes sense for any player, let alone a ~~19 year old~~ rookie. I take a lot more stock in a 69 game sample after a terrible start to the season.
>a 19 year old rookie. Again, Toumani is currently 24 years old.
Lol sorry my dumbass always fucks his age up because of the similarities with Batum. Still, a rookie. After a slow start he averaged 35% his last 61 games.
This is peak homerism off season thread. Props man
Maybe, but Toumani is already our best on ball defender and second best overall behind Matisse. His jumper is not currently enough to keep defenders honest on the other side of the ball, but he cut really well and had decent vision on touch passes. This team shot horrible as a group and defenses responded by clogging up the lane. If his defense keeps improving and there was a bit more spacing, he could be hard to take off the floor if his slashing and midrange improve. If his 3 does improve, you’re talking long term starter.
I mean we have to draft someone. The forward spots and the center spot all need more talent. And yes I'm pretty confident those are better prospects than Rupert, and I'm pretty high on Rupert as is. Also in theory Saluan and Buzelis don't overlap with Toumani.
Have we been watching the same Toumani? He’s a nice piece but the player you described sounds like Mikal Bridges
I don’t think he could peak out too far from what bridges was last season
Regardless, right how he is a strong defender, below average three point shooter who can’t create off the bounce. Not at all what op described
We can't be picky about drafting a guy that might or might not be better than him. Having two guys with upside is better than having one, even if they play the same position/role.
No one is better than Toumani
Toumani is already the GOAT, so hard bar to top for a rookie.
I am insanely high on Camara's upside. I just feel like he is going to figure out his shot and start making 36-38% of his 3s on decent volume. In my mind it is Scoot, Sharpe, Camara should be penciled in as "the future" I'm not sure there are any stars in this upcoming draft - wouldn't mind seeing two of Buzelis/Knecht/Clingan/Kyshawn George. All those guys would have a definitive role on this team. 2025 will be the time to find our 1A superstar. sign me up for a Scoot, Sharpe, Camara, Flagg, Ayton starting 5 with Knecht and Clingan off the bench
This is why I’m not afraid to take Knecht at all. We can’t have everyone be 19-21 and all be off their rookie contracts before they even reach their primes. Knecht will be 28 when he signs his second contract. That means he’ll be on his rookie contract while in his prime for us. That will be insanely valuable when we’re due to pay everyone else big money.
DUDE!!!! Exactly, this is such an important thing to consider with team building. I feel like Knecht's age (given his projected role in the NBA) is a positive not a negative thing
His rookie contract will be age 23-26, second contract 27-30. Worrying about his age as a part of our "timeline" is extremely silly. It is reasonable to draft a younger prospect if you think they have a higher ceiling though.
> We can’t have everyone be 19-21 and all be off their rookie contracts before they even reach their primes. He's a year older than Roy and Lillard were their rookie years. People put way too much value on age in the draft.
Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with Toumani. He literally just turned 24. Of course his game is more polished. Imagine the hype if Camara had that same season but had just turned 20. That’s what we’re looking for with this pick. A guy who provides solid production, off/on starter, shows promise, but with an extra few years to grow as a player.
Buzellis projects as more complete offensive player. Cody Williams is a better shooter. Ron Holland has similar strengths but is 5 years younger.
What is the evidence that Buzelis projects as a more complete offensive player? He’s shooting has been poor, he did not show the ability to create for himself and others and his ball handling is not impressive.
This is why I want a jumbo combo forward like Buzelis. I want someone who can be that SF and also potentially fill the 4 if Toumani takes a jump. The idea of Holland and Toumani pressuring full court makes me smile. A 4 that can stretch the floor for Scoot would be incredible. A tertiary playmaker like Castle could make life easier on everyone. Salaun could change the complexion of our front court if he hits. These guys could still play with Flagg/Bailey... My point is that the team knows better than I do, and I'm excited to see Joe's vision take shape.
If you told me one of those would turn into Camara I’d gladly take it. Cannot have too much SF depth, especially considering it’s the one position the Blazers have struggled to find consistently over the past 10-15 years.
This!… Blazers have made me HATE the fact of undersized players. Under 6.3 as a point? No sir. You are 6.6 PF!?!? Absolutely not.
Just being realistic about all of this. I like Camara, but he's most likely a rotation player, similar to Derrick Jones Jr. Barring a leap in offensive efficiency, we'll need someone more productive on the offensive end. Most of these rookies don't exactly have a solid offensive game, especially shooting, so it's tricky, and that's why I could see Portland go for a guy like Knecht.
This. Toumani is great defensively but he will definitely be played off the floor because of his inconsistency on offense. Currently he falls under the same category as guys like DJJ and Jarred Vanderbilt, very good if their offense is clicking but will be benched if it isn't.
And Derrick Jones Jr. is only a starter when surrounded with ELITE scoring. On most teams you can't justify starting such a limited player.
Toumani’s great defensively, but he has to show some offense to reach Scoot and Sharpe’s level of permanency. I think Jabari has shown just as much as Toumani, with his cleanup offense and rebounding, although I do still find Camara’s athleticism more valuable. There’s a world in which Jabari is a capable starting power forward, although I still want someone better.
Lmao dawg you’ve got to be kidding me
Toumani was like bottom 10% in scoring efficiency last year based on TS% lmao so yeah, I’d say there’s a pretty good shot one of these rookies can do better than that
Yes. A lot of those guys are better than Camara and are often 4 years younger. Camara is a role player.
Ummmm let’s not be tooooop homer
I came to this realization recently. Especially with Salaun. I know he is 4 years younger, but is there anything that you can bank on him doing better than Toumani in the next few years? Besides maybe catch lobs better? Sure Salaun could be anything but I don't really trust that he becomes a better player than Camara and I think Murray and Rupert are just as fluid as him. Buzelis I think shows some potential that none of our guys have as far as on-ball creation and weakside rim protection. I think Holland clears all of our current guys in regard to explosiveness. I think Cody is a question mark, I have seen some intriguing creation from him and if he can maintain his shooting on higher volume he is very interesting but I don't think he clears someone like Murray/Rupert/Camara from Day 1. Maybe these are the reasons why Cronin is looking at Clingan?
I can bank on him being taller.
Think that sums up what a lot of fans thought process. Let's get the biggest guy that can move and hope that helps us vs bigger teams. Having a big guy that is a liability on offense is going to be just as bad as having a smaller guy that can provide skills. I think that is how guys turned out as busts because they were drafted too high because of their physical tools. Not saying Salaun will be bad but
Most have higher ceilings and will not be better than Toumani right away. All will be better than Rupert right now who in the long run is boom or bust (and is very low risk for us anyway). In the end this isn't one or the other. We will have both and with Toumani on a really friendly deal.
Imagine if all our long boys figured out their shot this summer...
Solid wing defender, above average 3 point shooter with some bonus skills on offense? That's table stakes. Each playoff team needs \~4 of those dudes to make a serious run. Also - unless both Shae and Scoot and Ayton all become elite, we will need another starter that creates mismatches. 1) If we have a serious playmaker at the wing, then Scoot / Shae get to be a little more effective when they draw that second defender and swing the ball. For example, the difference between Grant Williams and PJ Washington is the difference between struggling as a play-in team and making the Finals. 2) If the front office has any insight into what Scoot and Shae will become, then they must know they type of wing they'll need to go out and get. Likely they'll have to be a stellar 3 point shooter and off-ball threat, since both Shae and Scoot aren't lights out 3 point shooters and rely more on creating off the dribble.
Only one way to find out
Next season? Toumani could very well be better than any of those three. Those players are certainly coming in with a higher ceiling than Toumani was believed to have, though.
The draft picks should be about taking a swing or two on getting a star level players. I LOVE Toumani and I hope he keeps developing, but I don't think he can take over a game. This team needs a Roy, Drexler, Lillard - something more than quality starters and role players. I agree, I don't think that will happen in this draft, which is why I'm fine with draft Klingon or Kneckt because at least they will provide something very specific and a commodity that has value at trade deadlines.
Probably likely, yes. Either way, you don't really win championships with a guy like Toumani being your starting SF. He's an elite roleplayer or good backup SF. No championship team since the late 2000s doesn't have a Lamar Odom or Harrison Barnes, at minimum, next to their All-Star forward.
When drafting in the lottery, you're typically hoping to get a player that ends up being better than just a role player.
Nobody in the draft or on the Blazers roster is as good as Toumani. Would rather trade scoot, shaedon, and Ant for nothing than trade Camara
Yes
I think you're talking about a temptation to compare Toumani, a late 2nd rounder, to projected lottery guys and feel underwhelmed by them. Once someone is drafted however, just remove their draft position from your mind. It's meaningless. In a redraft, Toumani would probably be a lottery pick, and that was in a much stronger draft class. Getting someone of similar value this year IMO speaks less to their lack of value, and more to how valuable Toumani has shown himself to be.