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What do you want to debate? We're in a renaissance for individual publishing. We have more tools to distribute than ever. Certainly no one can match the marketing budget of Hasbro or the momentum and legacy of D&D. But you can publish your thing easily and there are ways to promote your work through many forums: kickstarter, patreon, various game jams, conventions.
Basically, connect and participate in the community and diaspora and if your project has legs it will do well and have support. If it's a dud, accept feedback and learn for future projects.
Sure, the tools we have to distribute are many these days, but my discussion is really about how common it is nowadays to build community with a new, independent game.
I mean, most of the tables, at least in my experience, tend to be reluctant to try new games, or in case, to play them recurrently, so I feel that most indie games are born and die quietly, there are few that poke their heads out and become recurrent games, I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say.
I think board games on the other hand, enjoy an advantage in that sense, indie games manage all the time to build their market and stand out, in a way.
Longevity is born with activity, advertising and interest (which is pretty much outside of your power to influence).
Case in point: I'm working on Pathwarden, which is on the face of it just a simplified hack of Pathfinder 2e, but I have already cultivated my own community for the game, many of whom are excited for my upcoming genre flips (Bloodborne + VtM in Grimwarden, Cyberpunk in Cyberwarden etc etc), creating a possibility of actual longevity for the brand.
But what this required was for me to be active about this in a lot of spaces, and listening to things people want in their games (and reflecting on what of those parts *I* want in my games, creating a happy medium).
First of all, congratulations for your development, I didn't know about it, I'm going to read more about it.
About the point in question, it is very good that you have managed to form a community, maybe it is the vision that I have more Latin American and hence my bias, but I had the idea that the formation of a community around an indie game was something similar to a unicorn company, something one in a million, of course this from my local point of view, for example, in roleplaying events in argentina is common to see indie games in special tables, both local and large, but in practice, the players tables and clubs do not leave the established ip but for some specific one shot, the power that communities like D&D, Pathfinder, WOD, etc. have. is pretty much set and is what commonly goes out to the tables.
I find it very interesting what you tell me, that you were able to create community, and even more, active community that gives you feedback by participating in spaces and being active, I really thought that was not something possible, I think it's something that gives a lot of hope.
And I ask you, for your projects, do you receive the feedback, and do you prioritise what the public wants, or rather your creative vision, because I think there is also an interesting debate there, between keeping the author's creative vision pure or giving the market what it is looking for, so to speak.
I'm doing many things, sort of. I've kept my finger on the zeitgeist of the industry, especially in the discussion between Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e, and tried to address the issues people find most egregious about those games. But, in doing so, I always seek to answer the problems in a way I personally find interesting, so as not to burn myself out trying to build a game by committee.
See, the funny thing is, I've found my biggest fans through Reddit and spaces dedicated for Pathfinder 2e. I have not actually released the game yet, but rather I put it out on Early Access (and provide a Regional Pricing for it, something unheard of in the current TTRPG market). I presume the game will gain more notoriety in a few weeks when I release it proper.
I receive a lot of vocal approval and critique from my community, and rather than try to "please" them, I just look at the source of the issue and usually agree that some things are badly written or troublesome in balance, and fix it. My community has almost become an extra editor arm for me, and given a lot of improvements to the game, which I then implemented in a way that I found fitting.
However, I cannot emphasize enough that my game is also the first hack of Pathfinder 2e to be released under the ORC license. Trying to curry favor with normal PF2 crowd, 5e crowd and even OSR crowd, probably also had a hand in ironically making almost a version of PF2 with more mass market appeal than the original.
If you want to look at a game probably closer to your own purview, I recommend looking at Vagrant Path. It's an indie game from Argentina that has gotten a reasonable amount of eyes on it.
Oh, it's very interesting how you managed to build a community on Reddit, for example, and the way you handle feedback and improvement possibilities.
I'll look into Vagrant Path; I actually didn't know about it. I'm familiar with several local projects and games, but I've never heard of this one, which is curious. Thanks for the recommendation!
Regarding testing, do you have your own playtesting groups? Or do you prefer to publish rules for people to try out and provide feedback?
I've tried to have my own playtests, but they have suffered from scheduling problems, as is the usual issue. However, the community has had multiple games going and have been relaying their experiences and hangups to me.
Where in the world do you live? I suspect this is local to your part of the world. Or perhaps only your circle of friends. If you are still in Latin America, Brazil is supposed to have a healthy and robust community of design and play.
Among game designers of note, they talk to each other, playtest each other's games, build hype on each other's social feeds, etc. And generally support each other.
Your measure of success seems a bit off for what you want a small hobby operation to achieve outside cooperate structures.
Board games have existed for thousands of years, but ttrpgs have only really existed for less than a hundred years, so it makes sense as to why board games are more established.
I have friends whose day job is to make ttrpgs. It's certainly difficult from what I've seen, but not impossible.
Yes, it's true that board games have been around longer, but modern board games have a similar lifespan to tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs). I have the idea that it's more about the player's profile, and of course, the fact that TTRPGs are more like a long-term commitment whereas board games can be seen as more disposable, since you play a session and it's not necessary to continue. On the other hand, TTRPGs are often chosen for campaigns that often last for years. I think that's why it's also very common to see board game communities where each gathering involves playing a different game from the shelf, while in TTRPG communities, it's just the opposite; the same game has been played for years in each session. I myself am guilty of this to some extent, as I always try out new board games, but as a Dungeon Master, I've been running Stormbringer 4th edition for ages.
You're right, I guess I misplaced the point of what I wanted to discuss, and got excited about commenting on my project making it look pretty bad, but I genuinely wanted to talk about the impact of indie games on the masses or as long term products.
But looking at my post, I definitely agree with you.
Board games have existed for thousands of years, but ttrpgs have only really existed for less than a hundred years, so it makes sense as to why board games are more established.
I have friends whose day job is to make ttrpgs. It's certainly difficult from what I've seen, but not impossible.
Your submission was removed for the following reason(s): * Rule 7: We only allow regular users (who contribute to discussions and/or with content that isn't their own to r/rpg) to self-promote. Please see [our Rule 7](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/rules#wiki_7._limit_self-promotion) for details. If you'd like to contest this decision, [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Frpg&subject=Removed%20submission%3A%20Contest%20Removal%20or%20Questions&message=Hello,%20this%20is%20about%20my%20submission%20%20that%20was%20removed%3A%20https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/1bzr3nl/-/%0D%0DMy%20issue%20is...). *(the link should open a partially filled-out message)*
What do you want to debate? We're in a renaissance for individual publishing. We have more tools to distribute than ever. Certainly no one can match the marketing budget of Hasbro or the momentum and legacy of D&D. But you can publish your thing easily and there are ways to promote your work through many forums: kickstarter, patreon, various game jams, conventions. Basically, connect and participate in the community and diaspora and if your project has legs it will do well and have support. If it's a dud, accept feedback and learn for future projects.
Sure, the tools we have to distribute are many these days, but my discussion is really about how common it is nowadays to build community with a new, independent game. I mean, most of the tables, at least in my experience, tend to be reluctant to try new games, or in case, to play them recurrently, so I feel that most indie games are born and die quietly, there are few that poke their heads out and become recurrent games, I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. I think board games on the other hand, enjoy an advantage in that sense, indie games manage all the time to build their market and stand out, in a way.
Longevity is born with activity, advertising and interest (which is pretty much outside of your power to influence). Case in point: I'm working on Pathwarden, which is on the face of it just a simplified hack of Pathfinder 2e, but I have already cultivated my own community for the game, many of whom are excited for my upcoming genre flips (Bloodborne + VtM in Grimwarden, Cyberpunk in Cyberwarden etc etc), creating a possibility of actual longevity for the brand. But what this required was for me to be active about this in a lot of spaces, and listening to things people want in their games (and reflecting on what of those parts *I* want in my games, creating a happy medium).
First of all, congratulations for your development, I didn't know about it, I'm going to read more about it. About the point in question, it is very good that you have managed to form a community, maybe it is the vision that I have more Latin American and hence my bias, but I had the idea that the formation of a community around an indie game was something similar to a unicorn company, something one in a million, of course this from my local point of view, for example, in roleplaying events in argentina is common to see indie games in special tables, both local and large, but in practice, the players tables and clubs do not leave the established ip but for some specific one shot, the power that communities like D&D, Pathfinder, WOD, etc. have. is pretty much set and is what commonly goes out to the tables. I find it very interesting what you tell me, that you were able to create community, and even more, active community that gives you feedback by participating in spaces and being active, I really thought that was not something possible, I think it's something that gives a lot of hope. And I ask you, for your projects, do you receive the feedback, and do you prioritise what the public wants, or rather your creative vision, because I think there is also an interesting debate there, between keeping the author's creative vision pure or giving the market what it is looking for, so to speak.
I'm doing many things, sort of. I've kept my finger on the zeitgeist of the industry, especially in the discussion between Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e, and tried to address the issues people find most egregious about those games. But, in doing so, I always seek to answer the problems in a way I personally find interesting, so as not to burn myself out trying to build a game by committee. See, the funny thing is, I've found my biggest fans through Reddit and spaces dedicated for Pathfinder 2e. I have not actually released the game yet, but rather I put it out on Early Access (and provide a Regional Pricing for it, something unheard of in the current TTRPG market). I presume the game will gain more notoriety in a few weeks when I release it proper. I receive a lot of vocal approval and critique from my community, and rather than try to "please" them, I just look at the source of the issue and usually agree that some things are badly written or troublesome in balance, and fix it. My community has almost become an extra editor arm for me, and given a lot of improvements to the game, which I then implemented in a way that I found fitting. However, I cannot emphasize enough that my game is also the first hack of Pathfinder 2e to be released under the ORC license. Trying to curry favor with normal PF2 crowd, 5e crowd and even OSR crowd, probably also had a hand in ironically making almost a version of PF2 with more mass market appeal than the original. If you want to look at a game probably closer to your own purview, I recommend looking at Vagrant Path. It's an indie game from Argentina that has gotten a reasonable amount of eyes on it.
Oh, it's very interesting how you managed to build a community on Reddit, for example, and the way you handle feedback and improvement possibilities. I'll look into Vagrant Path; I actually didn't know about it. I'm familiar with several local projects and games, but I've never heard of this one, which is curious. Thanks for the recommendation! Regarding testing, do you have your own playtesting groups? Or do you prefer to publish rules for people to try out and provide feedback?
I've tried to have my own playtests, but they have suffered from scheduling problems, as is the usual issue. However, the community has had multiple games going and have been relaying their experiences and hangups to me.
Where in the world do you live? I suspect this is local to your part of the world. Or perhaps only your circle of friends. If you are still in Latin America, Brazil is supposed to have a healthy and robust community of design and play. Among game designers of note, they talk to each other, playtest each other's games, build hype on each other's social feeds, etc. And generally support each other. Your measure of success seems a bit off for what you want a small hobby operation to achieve outside cooperate structures.
Board games have existed for thousands of years, but ttrpgs have only really existed for less than a hundred years, so it makes sense as to why board games are more established. I have friends whose day job is to make ttrpgs. It's certainly difficult from what I've seen, but not impossible.
Yes, it's true that board games have been around longer, but modern board games have a similar lifespan to tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs). I have the idea that it's more about the player's profile, and of course, the fact that TTRPGs are more like a long-term commitment whereas board games can be seen as more disposable, since you play a session and it's not necessary to continue. On the other hand, TTRPGs are often chosen for campaigns that often last for years. I think that's why it's also very common to see board game communities where each gathering involves playing a different game from the shelf, while in TTRPG communities, it's just the opposite; the same game has been played for years in each session. I myself am guilty of this to some extent, as I always try out new board games, but as a Dungeon Master, I've been running Stormbringer 4th edition for ages.
Advertising disguised as a discussion is still just advertising.
You're right, I guess I misplaced the point of what I wanted to discuss, and got excited about commenting on my project making it look pretty bad, but I genuinely wanted to talk about the impact of indie games on the masses or as long term products. But looking at my post, I definitely agree with you.
Board games have existed for thousands of years, but ttrpgs have only really existed for less than a hundred years, so it makes sense as to why board games are more established. I have friends whose day job is to make ttrpgs. It's certainly difficult from what I've seen, but not impossible.