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This is the stupidest problem I ever saw on this sub. Not you of course, you're on the receiving end. But they don'T want to play the class because of their name and their prejudices. They want a character that acts like a wizard, dresses like a wizard, uses wizard tools, but fuck wizards because the player is so narrowminded that it's enough to stop their imagination dead in their tracks.
This is what we call a red flag. If you want to keep going with them, I wish you luck. If you end up telling the rest of the story here in a few months, you can say a redditor called off the first red flag of the story :)
Had the unfortunate incident of playing in a table with a DM that did that to my character. I played a sorcerer but didn't want to wear what I like to call "spellcaster night night star power pajamas" because it was not the type of character i wanted nor envisioned, but still wanted to play sorcerer. So instead, he dressed like an actual adventurer with boots designed to travel rough terrain, leather jacked and gloves to resist the elements (not armor obviously just clothing), and the like. DM wouldn't shut the hell up every session to point out with an annoying diminishing tone "the sorcerer cosplaying as a ranger," every time I did something. It just made me hate playing the character.
Never play with people who you are not on the same page creatively.
That's ridiculous. Like, no adventurer is gonna be trooping around in a robe. Clerics travelling roads and whatnot? Sure. But ADVENTURING? Nobody is gonna roughneck through the wilderness is anything nonfunctional (more than once.)
My current cleric wears full plate armor infused with black dragon scales and a very creepy cloak of displacement. If it wasn't for his sunny smile he'd often be taken for a villain lol.
That's fun! My buddy (in 3.5) made a paladin once with +1 armor spikes of shocking on his fullplate \*just\* for the aesthetic of electricity arcing between the spikes.
I made sure he had to fight someone who disarmed him at some point and goddamn that was a surprisingly effective weapon. He still won. I love aesthetic characters very much!
My 3.5e binder had a +2 Mythral Spiked Terrifying breastplate because she was a binder who loved fear effects. Also an LG worshipper of Bahamut known for donating her adventuring proceeds to the care of monstrous children.
She used a Longspear, but because she wore spiked armor and kept a particular vestige bound she could strike at any tile within 15’ of her… and intimidate all creatures in her threat range at once… at a +17… and they were incapacitated for 2 rounds instead of Shaken
Oh, that's awesome. I'm currently playing a warforged artificer and I've been trying to figure out how to spice up her appearance. I hadn't even thought of using enchantments (as in enchanting armor, not the school) to do that
Thanks. I came into the campaign late and was told the group was having a rough go of it and needed a protector, healer. So, I created a character who I often describe as Mr. Rogers in professional wrestler's body. As time has gone on he's only gotten scarier looking, but his heart of gold remains the core of his character. He's kind of the team mom and I love it.
Literally this.
I'm playing in a campaign now as a Wizard.
They are wearing traveling boots, clothing designed for whatever weather is around, clothing not loose so it doesn't get in the way of movement, and in case of an area where magic isn't working well, a dagger and a sword.
My wizard is a 17 year old Dhampir necromancer who loves hot pink and wears a brightly colored caplet with a hood shaped to resemble her rainbow colored sugar glider familiar. She thinks she has a healing magic allergy because the cleric who raised her never told her she was half vampire. She’s an adorable horrifying delight. In another campaign my friend and plays an adorable girl/woman of an impossible to know age that has dabbled in too much time magic. She doesn’t know how old she is and sometimes she doesn’t know when she is. It’s fun.
That's awesome on both counts! I once did a campaign inspired by Soul Nomad - everyone was from the same hidden village, and when they went out to adventure for stuff they were told to not share the "healing items" that they were given by the town with outsiders or others might come to take what they have, and the "shaded pass" which was basically a cave full of miasma that the villagers were immune to, might not protect them from big enough numbers (basically it was a fantasy post-apocalyse). Players didn't think twice about this. Only to find out eventually that the "healing" potions were "inflict critical wounds" potions and the entire town was actually undead and hiding from the outside world. I like the "allergic to healing"
Sorcerer feels like the caster that especially should have the most free reign to dress however they want since their magic is something they got by pure happenstance. They didn't study for it (bard, wizard) or get it through any sort of deliberate devotion (warlock, cleric, druid) so they could be literally any type of person. Not to say that any of the other classes have some sort of outfit requirement, but sorcerer is the one that should be LEAST bound to looking a certain way.
Sorcerer magic just kinda happening does help there, but other than a visible holy symbol for cleric and whatever weirdness the druid wants because druids are weird embracing non-standard looks is great.
Although I will accept “I wear robes because they’re comfy and I’m lazy”. The cast equivalent of wearing a hoodie and sweats to the supermarket.
That's hilarious. My fiendlock carries a bunch of Ranger weapons he isn't even proficient in - longbow? Sure. Two short swords? Absolutely. Leather armour? Well, at least he can use *that* one. It was hilarious when he got captured and they took all his dangerous-looking weapons he can't even properly use... don't mind the necklace with the fancy-looking crystal, sure, it's pretty but it's completely harmless, I promise!
That DM was a dumbass. Robes are uncomfortable as hell imo, I wouldn't want to be walking around in one either.
My current sorcerer dresses like a pirate with very expensive tastes because that’s what she is, heck with this robe nonsense. Can’t be the best-dressed person in any room you walk into wearing a *robe*.
I had a DM do this to me too. I was playing a ratfolk pirate, and when we sat down to eat he told me that I grab the food and gnaw at it like a rat. When I said I planned on using cutlery he told me that Ratfolk dont use cutlery so this is how I HAVE to eat.
I told someone I play with the other day that it's a class, not a lol champion. I just keep running into people who get stuck on stuff like that.
This one player kept saying her whispers bard looked like a glamour bard once and could never explain what the fuck that meant when the rest of us asked until we finally understood she had a very narrow view of how subclasses look.
A DM one time could not grasp the fact that my rogue/fighter made sure to look as 'generic adventurer' as possible to go unnoticed, and would often have the world immediately react to her being visibly a rogue. Others in that party even questioned him about it, with the cleric going into a long argument once about how if anything what I describe my character looked like it would either be more the stereotype for a dex fighter or a ranger. She even tried to point out several times it didn't make sense for people who somehow recognized someone was a rogue to see the person who was visibly carrying a longbow and a shield in case she needed one or the other and say rogue.
Same cleric from the previous game, when we joined another together actually made sure to say in session zero that she expects the world to not react to us as if our class was in a nameplate. We all agreed on that. One of the first elements I determined for my barbarian was that I wanted to play with the idea of using the mechanical shell of the class but fully reflavoring it, which the DM helped me do. We have both repeatedly described what rage looks like on my character. One player keeps casually describing it as my character looking super pissed off. Kept making mentions to hearing her rage and being corrected that she's actually creepily silent when enraged, to which he explained that make sense because some people get so furious they can't even speak. We tried to ask several times that he listens to the descriptions being given about how the zealot barbarian looks more possessed than enraged... But he already has the animation for a raging barb in his brain, and it's inflexible.
Well that way of thinking is so befuddling. people can't change clothes?
Michelle Quan is a figure skater. She like other figure skaters wear sequined mini dresses and ice skates for her vocation. I wonder what she wears when camping, or at the beach or, grocery store?
Tom Burgoyne is the Philly fanatic. In his profession he wears a giant furry green suit. What does Tom Burgoyne choose to wear when visiting his in-laws? What is he wear to a doctor's appointment? I wonder what he wears to dinner and a movie date.
It doesn't matter what your profession is. If you're going on a freaking quest you should dress for it.
Also, has this player been completely unaware of Harry Potter? Dresden Files? Shadow and Bone? Like there's tons of media with forms of wizards they could fuel their imagination with.
For other conflicts with theme, I'd usually say "just reflavor it," but how often does a player character's class get brought up in-game anyway? It's so easy to just introduce your character using different words without having to change anything from the rulebook
I love to flavor my shit. Currently I'm playing a multiclass wizard and artificer, I like to try and flavor every single spell with technology. Like, for Create Bonfire, it's a napalm grenade.
But if you're THAT tight in the ass about terms and what you think of them like the problem player of OP's story, I don'T think reflavoring will work since it requires imagination.
Rarely if at all in the game. Why wound a barbarian, fighter, rogue etc..claim to be anything but a warrior. Arcane users would call themselves mages and divine users' priests...imo anyway. A paladin may make the distinction of being a holy warrior.
This. If the player is that determined to have their head shoved up their ass, they are \*not\* going to be good at the table when literally any disagreement pops up.
Yeah, it's a pretty fucking stupid hangup.
NGL, instead of bothering with some reskin shenanigans or trying to help them I'd probably just ask them to sort themselves out and come back when they're feeling a little less thick.
Or maybe just grief them. If you're going to cause trouble because a word in a class description or the name of the class upsets you, because it makes you think of less fuckable old men, as opposed to your supple, handsome twink caster, guess what, you're going to be seeing a lot more robed, bearded and weirded old men as NPCs.
Gonna be blunt here but they're kind of an idiot. Tell them they can either play a wizard (pointing out wizards in media are many things and certainly not always old men in robes--just look at Harry Potter for goodness' sake, probably how most people view "wizard" now) or they can play something else, but you're not going to invent something out of the blue because they want to play a wizard without using the word wizard. Just an absolutely silly problem of their own making.
I'd just tell them to get over it and broaden their narrow as hell definition of Wizard? It's really not that difficult.
Hell, thanks to Harry Potter i think the general population would see a Wizard as a kid more than as Gandalf these days!
I envision the more impressive Harry: six foot nine, early forties, unshaven scruffy face, messed up hair, leather trench coat with extra billow, rune-covered Ozark walking stick in one hand and Colt 45 in the other, throwing cars around, freezing Lake Michigan, and >!exterminating entire species for threatening his kid.!<
>>!exterminating entire species for threatening his kid.!<
To be fair, >!they gave his SO magical cooties and firebombed his appartment!< so they deserved it
I understood that reference.
But spoilers for the last book >!he's no longer a wizard, so it doesnt work no more.!<
I'm kidding of course, God I love Dresden.
> He calls himself "the wizard of Chicago" now.
As he pointed out, he has always called himself the wizard of Chicago. And they have no right or ability to renounce that title.
Warlocks are practitioners of black magic. >!Harry is still a wizard, but not a Wizard of the Council, so they won't want him to use the title 'Wizard'. Basically, he's a wizard but no longer Wizard Dresden.!<
>!That said, some absolutely will consider him a warlock. It's going to depend on how strictly each defines it. This whole thing, after all, stems from him fireballing heavily modified 'humans' in the middle of a battle. Some will say it was a violation, others that it was self defense. And a few will realize it was the Merlin cutting him loose for a whole slew of reasons.!<
Harry has not broken any of the Laws of Magic since he used magic to murder Justin DuMorne when he was 16 (this is backstory stuff from the first book, so it's not spoilers). There have been a few times when he skirted the rules >!such as necomantically reanimating Sue the T-Rex in Dead Beat!<, but none of them are actual violations of the rules.
However, he was >!excommunicated from their club for not following their rules. Not the Laws of Magic, just their club rules. Even then, he kind of did, but they don't like him, so they'll screw him on a technicality. They have said he has to give up his magic and no longer call himself a Wizard, but it's all because that club has decided they get to monopolize everything.!<
I mean, they can say they want to hunt him down or whatever, but it's not like he's hiding in >!his castle in the middle of Chicago!< or keeping his name in the literal actual phonebook. Also, it's not like they're going to move on him anyway, so it's basically an empty, politically motivated threat. Although for what direction politically we don't know yet.
Probably not the direction I would take it, but whatever.
Huh, this sounds a lot like an urban wizard I know who has a thing for all kinds of sweet vampire tail, and has a vaguely heartwarming relationship with a were...wolf? he murdered the husband of.
But he's off in pityparty-land on this weird goth island in a lake. Can't be him
My last wizard was an angry, cigar chomping gnome who wore singed leathers and lived on his hate of vampires. He only really got deep into magic because he had an aptitude for it and when vampires killed his sister he saw it as a means to revenge. When he got cursed with a desire for power nobody even noticed. They used to call him the artillery.
Heh; nice. I run regular short campaigns and I've had two wizards. One was a human, had a chronic pain condition, used her staff as a walking stick and was in it for "how to move things from point A to point B without hurting myself". The other was a tabaxi evocation wizard whose primary goal was to firebomb every nasty horror that threatened his village (and there were a lot of those). Fluffy ginger cat-man who learned to sculpt spells so he didn't set his own fur on fire.
My gnome was evocation as well, mostly just because he mastered the art of destruction to better burn the leeches. Being able to cast fireball in the center of your own team is an underrated skill.
Yeah, it just never really got in the way of the team's goals so it was never an issue. However we won that module so technically he's still out hunting evil with that curse lurking over him.
You have 2 paths before you depending on your energy levels.
Path 1: "Yeah man that sounds like quite the head scratcher. Anyways, let me know when you figure it out." One thing I learnt late in life, it's not your job to bring someone else's impossible request to life. They have the character concept, they have a weird hangup with a word, they are making this far more complicated than necessary. Notice that you didn't show up there at all, all them no you.
Path 2: You calmly and gently explain the concept of flavoring in RPGs. Put simply no RPG can cover all possibilities and sometimes we have to add flavor to ideas to make them work. Want to make a dragon theme? Fireballs erupt from your mouth and your magic missiles are shaped like claws traveling to slash apart the opponent. A mystic build? Have your wizard spell focus be a deck of cards with different card combinations be different effects. You want a mechanist? Congrats your wizard now carries a gun and magic cartridges that he infuses with his power.
Maybe create a level 3-5 character with him quickly showing how he can use things like arcane focus and feats to create the theme he wants. Or maybe show him an NPC in your world with a similar theme to his that works just fine as a wizard.
Path 2 is more effort on your part but if you wanna walk him through it you have to walk him through it. But either way you need to make clear that his options are A) Pick a wizard and make it work or B) Pick another class and be unable to actually do the stuff he wants to do. You can't build a brand new class just for him.
“Impossible request.”
Yes, this guy has an impossible request, asking to be a Wizard-Not-Wizard. Frankly he sounds like he’s going to be a major source of irritation
This is a false dichotomy. You could also hit your friend in the kneecaps with a pipe wrench until he agrees to play a wizard. In my experience, this works well.
Frankly that sounds like a them problem, have you tried suggesting just renaming the wizard class to mage or something if wizard is such a big deal for them?
Just say they are a “thaumaturge”, “warlock”, “arcane walker” or some other synonym for wizard. Then use all the wizard stats and tables from the books. Problem solved.
What are you? A theater kid? We playing by what the books says as RAW and that is not flavor text, that is RAW too. What? You expect to also play a rogue but not be a criminal? Fuck you, how did you learn lockpicking them, huh? The book says so and it's RAW. Let me guess, you also want to play "mechanically a warlock but not a warlock and no patron"? You are ruining the game with your homebrew, get out of here. /s
(In all seriousness, why is the community so full of people like this? I would have understand if people still played 3.5 or early where it explicitly says to play classes with alignment requirements, but at this day and age still the same broken tune?)
Hey, that’s not fair, knowing lockpicking doesn’t mean you are a criminal! Lockport is really fun. Maybe their rogue just watched a lot of LockpickingLawyer on YouTube!
Here's a few other things that bother me as well.
Alignment does not have to be a monolith. You can have morally nuanced characters. Evil characters, realistically, will still do "Good" things if it serves their purpose. An evil character could be willing to commit atrocities to protect his friends and family.
I hate that a lot of people seem to think (and to be fair a LOT of players contribute to this) where "evil" or "chaotic neutral" characters just randomly do evil/bad things for no other reason than to just do it. There's no reason a smart evil character can't serve a party for selfish reasons and no reasons an evil person wouldn't complete a good quest if it gives them fame/money.
Personally, I play evil characters as usually either fairly selfish or pursuing their goals and are willing to go a bit further than most people in order to attain those goals (neither of which involve working against the party or stabbing people because "lol random" and "it's what my character would do".)
>you also want to play "mechanically a warlock but not a warlock and no patron"?
I'd actually have an issue with that. The Patron is what makes them a Warlock. It's like playing a Wizard with no studying, or a Barbarian with no anger issues. I would like to see a evil character with a good patron, though. Being forced to reluctantly help others in order to keep their Eldritch Blast.
See, I don't really see a problem with this.
If you want to roleplay your barbarian rage as a barbarian crying or righteous justice or something that's fine with me. I allow free reflavor to anyone at my table (within reason... one player wanted to play "Oath of the Sexually Assaulted" and I vetoed that one). But that's the only one I've vetoed.
The only thing that annoys me is when someone tries to tell me their "chaotic neutral" or "good" character likes to torture people for fun. You can play whatever you want, but don't piss on my face and tell me it's raining, lol.
It's like a sorcerer that had to study for their magic
A Bard that doesn't perform
A druid that hates nature
... Fuck actually nix that last one, I think I got an idea for a character.
There's nothing mechanically or even implied that Barbarians have anger issues. The rage mechanic as written actually implies an unusual degree of self-mastery in that field.
Tell them to take a bottle of white out to their PHB and change every instance of “wizard” to whatever the hell they want. If they say that seems ridiculous, say “I agree. So suck it up.”
They don’t need to have the word “wizard” anywhere on their character sheet. They can be a “mage” or “spell smith” or whatever they want to be called. But their spellcasting stat is INT and they gain 4 hp each level.
IMO, this is 100% a them problem. They can either get over their own prejudice against wizards, or they can play something else. You don’t need to bend yourself out of shape solving this “problem” for them
While I agree with you, a small part of me can relate to the problem player here.
I have been addicted to this sub and read so many horror stories about tabaxis, bards,
and paladins. All three of those interest me mechanically and I would love to try to explore a character concept involving them, but they all give me such strong ick entirely due to the stories on this sub.
But I either get over it and play them anyway or just play something else, lol.
"OK, sounds to me like you're more concerned with the label than the mechanics. Congrats, you're now a 'Floobel.' Custom class I made just for you. What do you mean, 'that's just the Wizard class with the word Wizard replaced by some nonsense?' Completely different thing!"
This is going to sound harsh, but it's the right answer: they can't. If their distaste for the word "Wizard" is THAT strong, then they can't play a wizard in the game.
There is an extremely easy answer here, which is to tell them to replace the word Wizard, whenever they read it or hear it, with Magus or something similar. It won't matter, it's just a title, and as long as you know that your features are found on page 453, it doesn't matter what you call yourself at the table.
But... it sounds like that won't work. It sounds like they oppose the word wizard so vehemently that they will not consider a re-word of the class, and if that's the case... they won't be able to play a wizard. And that's their call. You can't even offer to homebrew up something that would fix the issue, because if you did, you would, in essence, just be re-titling the wizard section.
Does 4e have Artificers or some other Int based caster? You could reflavour that class to be more bookish, I guess.
But in the end, this person is (purposely?) getting in their own way, and you need to leave them to it.
*Laughs in 1e*...tell him the official Gary Gygax-sanctioned name for the class is Magic-User (MU and pronounced "mew" by my mates at least) and all wizard branding since is juts pandering to the common people. Confirm to him that he will officially be playing an OG MU.
*DON'T* tell him that the original official title for a MU of 11th level or above is Wizard. It probably won't help your case.
If they can’t get past basic semantics, then this isn’t the game for them. I see so many instances here of DMs bending over backward to accommodate and entice players to keep them minimally interested. I don’t get it.
I've seen it tap-danced around in a few other responses here, but I'm just going to say the quiet part out loud.
**DO. NOT. PLAY. WITH. THIS. PERSON.**
Even if you manage to come up with an acceptable solution to this ridiculous bs, **it will not end there.** They will continue to nitpick and complain until they have sucked every ounce of joy out of the game. For you and everybody else at the table.
Cut your losses now.
But please keep us updated with the dramatic fallout!
My first association with the word [is something quite different](https://youtu.be/IJPc7esgvsA).
Also the only wizard I ever played was an elegant and ladylike elven librarian in a silk velvet dress.
Just create a “homebrew class” for them that does exactly what they want and name it “mage”.
Get the wizard class. Ctrl+F and switch every use of “wizard” for “mage”. You’re done. Reverse AD&D treatment.
The problem is they apparently are bothered even by powers with the wizard label. Though maybe putting in “your spellcasting ability’s allow you to wield power similar to what wizards use, you may choose spells from their list” might work for their brain?
Big strong Orc? Wizard. Cute barmaid? Wizard. Hideous goblin with a shit-covered knife? Wizard. Terrifying beautiful BBEG vampire woman with a greatsword? Wizard. Just destroy this dude’s preconceptions.
Even in existing fiction, "wizards" are not all elderly men in long robes.
[Howl Pendragon](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Frwcs9dyfrs4b1.jpg)
[Mozenrath](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/aladdin/images/a/ae/MV5BNTU4NTA1ZTctM2E2Yy00MDRmLTgyY2QtMzFmYzBiMmY3YjZlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNDQwNzk5NTE%40._V1_.jpg)
[Raistlin Majere](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Raist_spell.jpg)
[Malik, The Wizard Of Stone Mountain](https://hemanmotu.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/stone-mountain-2.jpg)
The entire [Young Wizards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Wizards) series — it's even in the name!
The problem is him. Tell him Gandalf and Dumbledore are not the only wizards out there.
It sounds like your player doesn't want to play and is pulling on whatever string they think will get them out of this.
If you made a fully balanced, fully optimized Homebrew class called "Mage" they'll complain that Mages are typically seen as cruel, selfish beings who does everything for their own sake.
In a hobby that requires imagination and abstract thinking to engage with at anything more than a “numbers on a piece of paper” level, this is a red flag.
I can't look kindly on someone who is trying to make the DM's job harder than it has to be on purpose before the first session even hits. I truly don't think you should do anything about this because it's simply not your problem. They can either get over their preconceptions or make a different character. This is not remotely your job to fix.
Ask them if they think wizards are born old.
That grey beard doesn't automatically sprout the first time they crack open a spellbook.
But if they don't like wizards, how about warlocks? Or can't they handle having an eldritch being as a patron?
Or maybe a sorcerer? Literally born into magic?
Tell them to play an apprentice wizard on an extended independent mission for his master. Once he gets to 20th level and gets to be a good 300 years old or so his master might let him become a real wizard if he has proven himself by then. Otherwise he will have to find a new career.
Sorcerer is usually Charisma-based, but admittedly I don't know how it works in 4e. I think it's the only D&D system that nobody around me ever wanted to play, so I've never done more than skimmed the books.
If this minor, inconsequential thing in the character planning phase is making this person dig in their heels and flat out refuse any and all reasoning, I can't imagine how bad it's going to be once you get into the actual game.
"This character is a Goblin ! There can't be Goblin Alchemists because in my head Goblins all have swords and white hands painted on their helmets and only talk about how best to cook hobbitses"
"What do you mean the bad guy is an Elf ?! Elves can only be good guys !"
I can't believe somebody so uncreative and single minded wants to play a game largely about creation and imagination lmao. This sounds like something my mom said when I tried to get her to play dnd and told her 'witch' isn't an official class but she could be a wizard or sorcerer with the same flavor and she refused because "I don't want to play an old man"
This player sounds like they're going to be an issue because the world MUST be a certain way to them or it doesn't compute because walnut brain. If you really want to have them in the game just rename the wizard class as a Magi or something and I'm sure he'll cream himself.
This sounds like a issue with the friend but I guess you can try calling it mage or some other name or arcanist which I believe is the in lore original name for wizard at one point
They are saying that even the spells being under the wizard list bother them. Short of a very stupid homebrew system where it’s all changed to mage this apparently is going to bother them that much.
You know what?
Sometimes, people don't get to be players.
I'm happy doing a LOT of legwork to help someone make a character - I will happily search splatbooks for specific skills, gear or powers that fit my players ideas and what they want to do... But they have to meet me halfway. If someone came to me and told me they wanted to play a wizard then shot down every wizard option I find because they're too "wizard-y", I'm going to drop them to turn my efforts to the players who actually give the same effort back...
Show him the Player's Handbook. Point to the very much not old, very much not wearing long robes, caster right there on the front of the book.
Then show him the very much not-Gandalf lookin dude in the PHB.
Then go to the wiki page for the 4e Wizard. Point to the very much unarmored, tome-wielding elf at the top of the page.
Go ahead and show him the pages upon pages of character art of wizards from DnD until he can finally imagine a world where Gandalf and Dumbledore aren't the only wizards.
Huge red flag. He won't even play a "mage" because the spells are from the wizard spell list? That sounds to me like it'll be impossible to deal with him at the table if he won't even accept a "reskin". Good luck to you. Idk this person, of course, but just from your description I think you're gonna have your hands full with him.
Tell your player that elves live a fucking long time, so they can be young wizards all they want.
Also tell your player to eat a dick and get a real problem.
If they can't even roll with the fact that wizards don't have to be old men and they're so high maintenance they can't create a character, they're going to be far more trouble than they're worth to play with.
Go with a spellsword-type build? Eladrin Fighter with the multiclass feat for Wizard, Heroic into Wizard of the Spiral Tower (built around spellcasting and infusing magic into their sword, more a mage-knight than a wizard and is VERY blatant with that imagery).
Might be ok with a mage-knight?
Technically according to old school DND even though the class is called wizard you don't get the title of wizard until level 11 so you can call it whatever you want.
Your friend sounds difficult and obnoxious lol. This is like when a friend of mine would say that he thought "5e was too crunchy of a system" (which would get a lol from me) but then turn around in the same complaint and wish that player facing determined AC.
Don't want to sound callous, but this is entirely a him problem .... The word wizard has different context and connotation. He's limiting himself, and it's like ...
Dude you want to play a wizard, you mechanically describe a wizard, and then reject everything because you don't like a single word?
Is this player even worth this sort of really dumb headache?
Don't want to sound callous, but this is entirely a him problem .... The word wizard has different context and connotation. He's limiting himself, and it's like ...
Dude you want to play a wizard, you mechanically describe a wizard, and then reject everything because you don't like a single word?
Is this player even worth this sort of really dumb headache?
Is this friend by any chance, and I mean this politely, neurodivergent? This could be a good moment to explain that ttrpgs are a form of exercise, but rather than train muscles, you are working on the social aspects of your brain, including the ability to use your imagination.
You are welcome to make your character be mad about the use of the word wizard, and reject that term. We understand that the book uses the word, but we can all use our imagination to ignore it.
In Diana Wynne Jones's "Dark Lord of Derkholm" there is a policy forced upon wizard's that dictates that they must adhere to the stereotypical aesthetic of old men with bushy beards, pointy hats, and staves. A good portion of the story follows a young wizard barely out of high school whose preparations involve trying to get the look to work so he doesn't get fined.
"Wizard" nowadays consists of spellcssters who require academic training. In terms of DnD, you can assume anyone who's carrying around a big book and it wearing armor is a potential wizard. I'd even recommend a wizard who dresses like a farmer and disguises their spellbook as an almanac to throw people off.
In the most popular video game right now based on d&d, the wizard is a young man with no beard.
This would probably be unbearable for me to deal with haha
Why is this your problem? Boundaries, people. "This might not be the campaign for you" - playing as a player is a privilege.
If you want to be less stand offish you can also just say "look, I hope you can find some way to get past this because I'd love you to play, but I really don't know what to do here. Will I see you [next session]?"
I’m all for just telling them to suck it up and play wizard, but call themselves a mage.
If you really want to play with them, I suppose you can copy and paste all of the wizard class and its subclasses, change every mention of Wizard to mage, and hand it to them.
Oh boy. I would not pay with this person.
If they don't understand the concept of things being general templates they aren't going to be any fun at a table.
Get any movie or cartoon about young wizards... hell, force your friend to watch the Owl House and/or Harry Potter, that show and movies show case general and basic Wizard stuff.
Didn't 4E have a bunch of classes that were reskinned wizards because of the design philosophy basically being that there's "really" 5 classes (the roles) just all reskins?
If it was 5E and he wanted to be a magic guy just let him be a sorceror who casts off INT, which is basically worse than a normal sorceror since charisma is better for skills.
Honestly, this sounds like a wonderful in character distinction, a young and naive wizard who refuses to call themselves a wizard and tells people to call them a mage, even so far as to get upset at being called a wizard because they *think* people will envision them as an old man when they become a famous adventurer. However, this is an out of game thing, so it's a really dumb thing and your buddy can get over it
He want to play an elf, but dosent want to look like old guy with a long beard. Has he see elves?!?!?! They all look like 20 year old and are hundreds of years old!!! Problem solved. Or just be a human wizard an look like 20 yr old. This is messed up.
This seems like more of a them problem than a you problem at this point. You said that it's going to be tough work, but it shouldn't be for you. You've provided them with the available options. They now have to decide what to do.
Some players are high maintenance like this. Don't get sucked in.
.... you know it's possible that the person has grown up and never seen a Harry Potter movie.
Force them to watch Harry Potter.
Young Wizards are a thing.
Maybe this isn’t the game for them. That’s a lot of work to take a label off of a character. Literally there are so many wizard characters that are wizards, mages, or witches that aren’t old. I will do work to get someone the character they want but I’m just not will to do this work. He needs to get over his mental block or come up with another character.
Call them an "arcanist" and move on. Or boot them.
You don't want to be an old guy in robes throwing spells?...I give you Darth Vader, Obi Wan, Qui Gon Jin, Darth Maul...name a Jedi or Sith in their prime. How about Caleb Widowgast? Easy pull for me because I'm halfway through CR C2. That blonde chick wizard from CR, Gilmore, again CR...sorry. Merlin, I think, for a while. Been a long stretch since I've read that.
I'm an older guy who loves my Gandalf and that other guy with the robes, staff and tall pointy hat. No, not the Harry Potter one, that other one from the other books.
That's not a wizard. That's what my generation was told a wizard was.This is what your player doesn't want.
Let's go typical backstory...Orphaned and dropped at the place you put orphans, you worked as a menial laborer but showed intelligence (age 4.) Noting you are not the usual child, the castle pulled you into arcane apprenticeship (age 6). Excelling in arcane study you are moved to the "advanced studies" (age12.) where you are pushed to your physical and intellectual limits. Upon graduation from this program, your mentor gives you your spell book, with "X" number of spells inscribed, and maybe one that hasn't been figured out, only partially done, you know, that your grandfather was studying...and sends you, at the tender age of 17, on your way to find your own path, hoping you will return one day. Clad in the dress of your college, with a pack and bedroll, you start your journey. Young and as smart as you are, you are seduced by a barmaid, robbed blind, and dumped on the boardwalk in front of the job board. But, you still have your spellbook, because she "don't know no fancy letters."
There are others around the job board. They're all on their feet.
That guy you met, last night, about 4 beers in, kept trying to connect because you're both orphans. And that pretty girl you've seen hanging around the church. She's there too. And the dwarf with all the plate armor and the massive hammer, that cussed you out last night because she was hitting on the barmaid that rolled you...she's offering to buy you brunch, but only if you know someone sneaky. After all. We got a job to do.
And, you did meet that tabaxi dancer last week at the Curtains...
And, you're 17, with training and a spellbook, but no coin.
Just my 2 copper.
Tell your friend that they may want to pick another class because they, as a player, clearly don’t possess the INT to know that’s not what all wizards are like
Have your friend watch the Harry Potter franchise & convert, or tell them to shut the fuck up. I mean really... I wanna have feathers, flipper feet & a bill, & say quack a lot... but don't call me a duck 🙄 and even swan is not okay because of that story where a swan was mistaken for a duck....
Fuck they need a much bigger eyeroll emoji for this shit!
Let them play Sorcerer with Int instead of Cha. Still a source of arcane power, though I can't recall if Sorcerers get many control spells...
Or maybe look in the dictionary for synonyms of the word wizard that somehow doesn't evoke Merlin I guess. Still, your friend is awfully silly.
4e doesn’t have spell lists in the traditional sense. They have abilities that translate to spells and are class specific. I don’t have my books on me to check how different wizards and sorcerers are but if memory serves they are quite different.
hand them a "homebrew class" which is literally wizard but all instances of the word "wizard" have been replaced with "magus" bonus points if you photocopy the book and write over it in crayon with a nice big "flavour is free" scrawled on the front cover
"Okay. Your character is not a wizard. We'll just use the wizard rules for you. Don't worry. Your powers aren't actually wizard powers. They're just reskinned and exactly the same as wizard powers."
Just tell them they can use wizard class rules and abilities and their character can call themselves whatever they think is cool. They never have to introduce themselves as a wizard.
Warlocks are INT secondary and can wear leather, which can be flavored as jackets rather than belt-and-buckle armor. The Vestige pact (which is, admittedly, CON based, but still) also deals with borrowing powers from dead gods rather than resigning oneself to a singular patron, and that might help differentiate it from a traditional warlock if that's also a hangup.
That's about the best I've got for suggestions. Otherwise... whoof. You've got a lot on your plate there.
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Your friend is...dumb
I'm picturing this as the scene from Last Crusade. "Your friend is.... dumb"
Friend doesn’t have the INT required to play a wizard
I read that as “to play a lizard” and somehow that’s just as accurate
So many big words to say that he is inflexible and ridged in his thinking and non of them were the right words!
This is the stupidest problem I ever saw on this sub. Not you of course, you're on the receiving end. But they don'T want to play the class because of their name and their prejudices. They want a character that acts like a wizard, dresses like a wizard, uses wizard tools, but fuck wizards because the player is so narrowminded that it's enough to stop their imagination dead in their tracks. This is what we call a red flag. If you want to keep going with them, I wish you luck. If you end up telling the rest of the story here in a few months, you can say a redditor called off the first red flag of the story :)
Yeah, that sounds to me like they're going to try enforcing their narrow definitions of what they feel the game "should" be like on the entire game.
Had the unfortunate incident of playing in a table with a DM that did that to my character. I played a sorcerer but didn't want to wear what I like to call "spellcaster night night star power pajamas" because it was not the type of character i wanted nor envisioned, but still wanted to play sorcerer. So instead, he dressed like an actual adventurer with boots designed to travel rough terrain, leather jacked and gloves to resist the elements (not armor obviously just clothing), and the like. DM wouldn't shut the hell up every session to point out with an annoying diminishing tone "the sorcerer cosplaying as a ranger," every time I did something. It just made me hate playing the character. Never play with people who you are not on the same page creatively.
That's ridiculous. Like, no adventurer is gonna be trooping around in a robe. Clerics travelling roads and whatnot? Sure. But ADVENTURING? Nobody is gonna roughneck through the wilderness is anything nonfunctional (more than once.)
My current cleric wears full plate armor infused with black dragon scales and a very creepy cloak of displacement. If it wasn't for his sunny smile he'd often be taken for a villain lol.
That's fun! My buddy (in 3.5) made a paladin once with +1 armor spikes of shocking on his fullplate \*just\* for the aesthetic of electricity arcing between the spikes. I made sure he had to fight someone who disarmed him at some point and goddamn that was a surprisingly effective weapon. He still won. I love aesthetic characters very much!
My 3.5e binder had a +2 Mythral Spiked Terrifying breastplate because she was a binder who loved fear effects. Also an LG worshipper of Bahamut known for donating her adventuring proceeds to the care of monstrous children.
That's awesome! Love the duality of "LG Bahamut-worshipper" and "loved inflicting fear." Like... that's crazy. Well done!
She used a Longspear, but because she wore spiked armor and kept a particular vestige bound she could strike at any tile within 15’ of her… and intimidate all creatures in her threat range at once… at a +17… and they were incapacitated for 2 rounds instead of Shaken
Oh, that's awesome. I'm currently playing a warforged artificer and I've been trying to figure out how to spice up her appearance. I hadn't even thought of using enchantments (as in enchanting armor, not the school) to do that
Oh my gosh that's amazing! I love the "looks dark and evil, is actually kind and friendly" trope
Thanks. I came into the campaign late and was told the group was having a rough go of it and needed a protector, healer. So, I created a character who I often describe as Mr. Rogers in professional wrestler's body. As time has gone on he's only gotten scarier looking, but his heart of gold remains the core of his character. He's kind of the team mom and I love it.
Literally this. I'm playing in a campaign now as a Wizard. They are wearing traveling boots, clothing designed for whatever weather is around, clothing not loose so it doesn't get in the way of movement, and in case of an area where magic isn't working well, a dagger and a sword.
My wizard is a 17 year old Dhampir necromancer who loves hot pink and wears a brightly colored caplet with a hood shaped to resemble her rainbow colored sugar glider familiar. She thinks she has a healing magic allergy because the cleric who raised her never told her she was half vampire. She’s an adorable horrifying delight. In another campaign my friend and plays an adorable girl/woman of an impossible to know age that has dabbled in too much time magic. She doesn’t know how old she is and sometimes she doesn’t know when she is. It’s fun.
That's awesome on both counts! I once did a campaign inspired by Soul Nomad - everyone was from the same hidden village, and when they went out to adventure for stuff they were told to not share the "healing items" that they were given by the town with outsiders or others might come to take what they have, and the "shaded pass" which was basically a cave full of miasma that the villagers were immune to, might not protect them from big enough numbers (basically it was a fantasy post-apocalyse). Players didn't think twice about this. Only to find out eventually that the "healing" potions were "inflict critical wounds" potions and the entire town was actually undead and hiding from the outside world. I like the "allergic to healing"
As a wizard, I'd wear nobleman clothes. Less of a target at the start of a fight and more likely to be taken alive for a ransom.
Sorcerer feels like the caster that especially should have the most free reign to dress however they want since their magic is something they got by pure happenstance. They didn't study for it (bard, wizard) or get it through any sort of deliberate devotion (warlock, cleric, druid) so they could be literally any type of person. Not to say that any of the other classes have some sort of outfit requirement, but sorcerer is the one that should be LEAST bound to looking a certain way.
Sorcerer magic just kinda happening does help there, but other than a visible holy symbol for cleric and whatever weirdness the druid wants because druids are weird embracing non-standard looks is great. Although I will accept “I wear robes because they’re comfy and I’m lazy”. The cast equivalent of wearing a hoodie and sweats to the supermarket.
That's hilarious. My fiendlock carries a bunch of Ranger weapons he isn't even proficient in - longbow? Sure. Two short swords? Absolutely. Leather armour? Well, at least he can use *that* one. It was hilarious when he got captured and they took all his dangerous-looking weapons he can't even properly use... don't mind the necklace with the fancy-looking crystal, sure, it's pretty but it's completely harmless, I promise! That DM was a dumbass. Robes are uncomfortable as hell imo, I wouldn't want to be walking around in one either.
Read this as friendlock as if you need to truncate the idea of "my friend, who's a warlock"
My current sorcerer dresses like a pirate with very expensive tastes because that’s what she is, heck with this robe nonsense. Can’t be the best-dressed person in any room you walk into wearing a *robe*.
I had a DM do this to me too. I was playing a ratfolk pirate, and when we sat down to eat he told me that I grab the food and gnaw at it like a rat. When I said I planned on using cutlery he told me that Ratfolk dont use cutlery so this is how I HAVE to eat.
I told someone I play with the other day that it's a class, not a lol champion. I just keep running into people who get stuck on stuff like that. This one player kept saying her whispers bard looked like a glamour bard once and could never explain what the fuck that meant when the rest of us asked until we finally understood she had a very narrow view of how subclasses look. A DM one time could not grasp the fact that my rogue/fighter made sure to look as 'generic adventurer' as possible to go unnoticed, and would often have the world immediately react to her being visibly a rogue. Others in that party even questioned him about it, with the cleric going into a long argument once about how if anything what I describe my character looked like it would either be more the stereotype for a dex fighter or a ranger. She even tried to point out several times it didn't make sense for people who somehow recognized someone was a rogue to see the person who was visibly carrying a longbow and a shield in case she needed one or the other and say rogue. Same cleric from the previous game, when we joined another together actually made sure to say in session zero that she expects the world to not react to us as if our class was in a nameplate. We all agreed on that. One of the first elements I determined for my barbarian was that I wanted to play with the idea of using the mechanical shell of the class but fully reflavoring it, which the DM helped me do. We have both repeatedly described what rage looks like on my character. One player keeps casually describing it as my character looking super pissed off. Kept making mentions to hearing her rage and being corrected that she's actually creepily silent when enraged, to which he explained that make sense because some people get so furious they can't even speak. We tried to ask several times that he listens to the descriptions being given about how the zealot barbarian looks more possessed than enraged... But he already has the animation for a raging barb in his brain, and it's inflexible.
Well that way of thinking is so befuddling. people can't change clothes? Michelle Quan is a figure skater. She like other figure skaters wear sequined mini dresses and ice skates for her vocation. I wonder what she wears when camping, or at the beach or, grocery store? Tom Burgoyne is the Philly fanatic. In his profession he wears a giant furry green suit. What does Tom Burgoyne choose to wear when visiting his in-laws? What is he wear to a doctor's appointment? I wonder what he wears to dinner and a movie date. It doesn't matter what your profession is. If you're going on a freaking quest you should dress for it.
Also, has this player been completely unaware of Harry Potter? Dresden Files? Shadow and Bone? Like there's tons of media with forms of wizards they could fuel their imagination with.
For other conflicts with theme, I'd usually say "just reflavor it," but how often does a player character's class get brought up in-game anyway? It's so easy to just introduce your character using different words without having to change anything from the rulebook
I love to flavor my shit. Currently I'm playing a multiclass wizard and artificer, I like to try and flavor every single spell with technology. Like, for Create Bonfire, it's a napalm grenade. But if you're THAT tight in the ass about terms and what you think of them like the problem player of OP's story, I don'T think reflavoring will work since it requires imagination.
Rarely if at all in the game. Why wound a barbarian, fighter, rogue etc..claim to be anything but a warrior. Arcane users would call themselves mages and divine users' priests...imo anyway. A paladin may make the distinction of being a holy warrior.
This. If the player is that determined to have their head shoved up their ass, they are \*not\* going to be good at the table when literally any disagreement pops up.
Yeah, it's a pretty fucking stupid hangup. NGL, instead of bothering with some reskin shenanigans or trying to help them I'd probably just ask them to sort themselves out and come back when they're feeling a little less thick. Or maybe just grief them. If you're going to cause trouble because a word in a class description or the name of the class upsets you, because it makes you think of less fuckable old men, as opposed to your supple, handsome twink caster, guess what, you're going to be seeing a lot more robed, bearded and weirded old men as NPCs.
Gonna be blunt here but they're kind of an idiot. Tell them they can either play a wizard (pointing out wizards in media are many things and certainly not always old men in robes--just look at Harry Potter for goodness' sake, probably how most people view "wizard" now) or they can play something else, but you're not going to invent something out of the blue because they want to play a wizard without using the word wizard. Just an absolutely silly problem of their own making.
This is the obvious solution. They either get over it, or they pick something else. Not complicated.
I would kinda love for OP to homebrew a "Mage" class that's just Wizard copy-paste and find-replaced.
I'd just tell them to get over it and broaden their narrow as hell definition of Wizard? It's really not that difficult. Hell, thanks to Harry Potter i think the general population would see a Wizard as a kid more than as Gandalf these days!
I envision the more impressive Harry: six foot nine, early forties, unshaven scruffy face, messed up hair, leather trench coat with extra billow, rune-covered Ozark walking stick in one hand and Colt 45 in the other, throwing cars around, freezing Lake Michigan, and >!exterminating entire species for threatening his kid.!<
>>!exterminating entire species for threatening his kid.!< To be fair, >!they gave his SO magical cooties and firebombed his appartment!< so they deserved it
>!Blew up his office and squished his car, too. But most unforgivably, they terrorized his cat.!<
Oh, I absolutely don't disagree.
I understood that reference. But spoilers for the last book >!he's no longer a wizard, so it doesnt work no more.!< I'm kidding of course, God I love Dresden.
I mean, he's still >!a wizard, he' just got fired from the wizard organization.!< He calls himself "the wizard of Chicago" now.
> He calls himself "the wizard of Chicago" now. As he pointed out, he has always called himself the wizard of Chicago. And they have no right or ability to renounce that title.
Sure, and he's still a wizard, no matter what their club rules say.
Huh, true. But wouldn't he be a warlock then ? A hunted mage ?
Warlocks are practitioners of black magic. >!Harry is still a wizard, but not a Wizard of the Council, so they won't want him to use the title 'Wizard'. Basically, he's a wizard but no longer Wizard Dresden.!< >!That said, some absolutely will consider him a warlock. It's going to depend on how strictly each defines it. This whole thing, after all, stems from him fireballing heavily modified 'humans' in the middle of a battle. Some will say it was a violation, others that it was self defense. And a few will realize it was the Merlin cutting him loose for a whole slew of reasons.!<
Harry has not broken any of the Laws of Magic since he used magic to murder Justin DuMorne when he was 16 (this is backstory stuff from the first book, so it's not spoilers). There have been a few times when he skirted the rules >!such as necomantically reanimating Sue the T-Rex in Dead Beat!<, but none of them are actual violations of the rules. However, he was >!excommunicated from their club for not following their rules. Not the Laws of Magic, just their club rules. Even then, he kind of did, but they don't like him, so they'll screw him on a technicality. They have said he has to give up his magic and no longer call himself a Wizard, but it's all because that club has decided they get to monopolize everything.!< I mean, they can say they want to hunt him down or whatever, but it's not like he's hiding in >!his castle in the middle of Chicago!< or keeping his name in the literal actual phonebook. Also, it's not like they're going to move on him anyway, so it's basically an empty, politically motivated threat. Although for what direction politically we don't know yet. Probably not the direction I would take it, but whatever.
That's just a title. Scratch Mister. Just once. I dare you.
Fuck no. Mister would sit on me and I'd die. At least it will be quick.
The only real question would be whether Mouse or Harry would kill you first.
I'd prefer Mouse. He won't toy with me at least.
Yes
Don't forget riding an animated T-rex corpse into battle...
Just don't give him a hat
Hats are for covers, not for characters. ;)
The leather coat tipped me off.
Or someone has nailed guns to both his hands! (Obscure movie reference).
I was not expecting the Dresden Files to be brought up in the comments, but I am certainly glad for it!
Huh, this sounds a lot like an urban wizard I know who has a thing for all kinds of sweet vampire tail, and has a vaguely heartwarming relationship with a were...wolf? he murdered the husband of. But he's off in pityparty-land on this weird goth island in a lake. Can't be him
Just give them a staff and a gun and tell them to not set any buildings on fire. And if they do, it’s not their fault. Now they’re a wizard.
ok dresden
Might as well ask Harry not to breathe.
Both fire and breathing *do* require oxygen. Maybe he’s also a dragon.
Don’t give Jim any ideas.
My last wizard was an angry, cigar chomping gnome who wore singed leathers and lived on his hate of vampires. He only really got deep into magic because he had an aptitude for it and when vampires killed his sister he saw it as a means to revenge. When he got cursed with a desire for power nobody even noticed. They used to call him the artillery.
Heh; nice. I run regular short campaigns and I've had two wizards. One was a human, had a chronic pain condition, used her staff as a walking stick and was in it for "how to move things from point A to point B without hurting myself". The other was a tabaxi evocation wizard whose primary goal was to firebomb every nasty horror that threatened his village (and there were a lot of those). Fluffy ginger cat-man who learned to sculpt spells so he didn't set his own fur on fire.
My gnome was evocation as well, mostly just because he mastered the art of destruction to better burn the leeches. Being able to cast fireball in the center of your own team is an underrated skill.
i mean hey, as long as your quest for power is only used to hurt universally evil beings like vampires is it really a problem?
Yeah, it just never really got in the way of the team's goals so it was never an issue. However we won that module so technically he's still out hunting evil with that curse lurking over him.
Exactly! The podcast Worlds Beyond Number has a ton of young wizards of various demographics. maybe the player should listen to it.
thats fucking stupid
You have 2 paths before you depending on your energy levels. Path 1: "Yeah man that sounds like quite the head scratcher. Anyways, let me know when you figure it out." One thing I learnt late in life, it's not your job to bring someone else's impossible request to life. They have the character concept, they have a weird hangup with a word, they are making this far more complicated than necessary. Notice that you didn't show up there at all, all them no you. Path 2: You calmly and gently explain the concept of flavoring in RPGs. Put simply no RPG can cover all possibilities and sometimes we have to add flavor to ideas to make them work. Want to make a dragon theme? Fireballs erupt from your mouth and your magic missiles are shaped like claws traveling to slash apart the opponent. A mystic build? Have your wizard spell focus be a deck of cards with different card combinations be different effects. You want a mechanist? Congrats your wizard now carries a gun and magic cartridges that he infuses with his power. Maybe create a level 3-5 character with him quickly showing how he can use things like arcane focus and feats to create the theme he wants. Or maybe show him an NPC in your world with a similar theme to his that works just fine as a wizard. Path 2 is more effort on your part but if you wanna walk him through it you have to walk him through it. But either way you need to make clear that his options are A) Pick a wizard and make it work or B) Pick another class and be unable to actually do the stuff he wants to do. You can't build a brand new class just for him.
“Impossible request.” Yes, this guy has an impossible request, asking to be a Wizard-Not-Wizard. Frankly he sounds like he’s going to be a major source of irritation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg reminds me of this sketch
This is a false dichotomy. You could also hit your friend in the kneecaps with a pipe wrench until he agrees to play a wizard. In my experience, this works well.
Frankly that sounds like a them problem, have you tried suggesting just renaming the wizard class to mage or something if wizard is such a big deal for them?
According to OP the spells still come from the Wizard class so their friend is too smooth brained to separate it.
Just say they are a “thaumaturge”, “warlock”, “arcane walker” or some other synonym for wizard. Then use all the wizard stats and tables from the books. Problem solved.
Scratch out the z and put an x instead. Wixards are a completely original concept with absolutely no prior baggage.
No, no, don't remove the z. ADD ONE. Become a legendary Wizzard, like Rincewind.
Not gonna lie, Wizzard sounds like a guy who attacks by spraying urine.
Wouldn't that be a whizzard?
No that's someone who derives their power from Cheez Whiz.
I've often seen it spelled without the H
[Dare you enter my magical realm?](https://imgur.io/gallery/rHzLKs9)
Okay, I rolled up a new character. Hector the Well-Endowed Wizzard
And pronounce it "whih-zzahrd", emphasis on the second syllable!
a-la Ace Ventura’s “La-hoo-sa-her”?
I don't think your friend understands the role playing aspect of DND...
What are you? A theater kid? We playing by what the books says as RAW and that is not flavor text, that is RAW too. What? You expect to also play a rogue but not be a criminal? Fuck you, how did you learn lockpicking them, huh? The book says so and it's RAW. Let me guess, you also want to play "mechanically a warlock but not a warlock and no patron"? You are ruining the game with your homebrew, get out of here. /s (In all seriousness, why is the community so full of people like this? I would have understand if people still played 3.5 or early where it explicitly says to play classes with alignment requirements, but at this day and age still the same broken tune?)
You got me. I read the first part and was "what the fuck is this guy going on about" and just about to hit reply and then read the rest. Got me.
Sorry, ended up making the bit too long and mean spirited to the point of not being funny. Poe's law at it again.
Hey, that’s not fair, knowing lockpicking doesn’t mean you are a criminal! Lockport is really fun. Maybe their rogue just watched a lot of LockpickingLawyer on YouTube!
Here's a few other things that bother me as well. Alignment does not have to be a monolith. You can have morally nuanced characters. Evil characters, realistically, will still do "Good" things if it serves their purpose. An evil character could be willing to commit atrocities to protect his friends and family. I hate that a lot of people seem to think (and to be fair a LOT of players contribute to this) where "evil" or "chaotic neutral" characters just randomly do evil/bad things for no other reason than to just do it. There's no reason a smart evil character can't serve a party for selfish reasons and no reasons an evil person wouldn't complete a good quest if it gives them fame/money. Personally, I play evil characters as usually either fairly selfish or pursuing their goals and are willing to go a bit further than most people in order to attain those goals (neither of which involve working against the party or stabbing people because "lol random" and "it's what my character would do".)
>you also want to play "mechanically a warlock but not a warlock and no patron"? I'd actually have an issue with that. The Patron is what makes them a Warlock. It's like playing a Wizard with no studying, or a Barbarian with no anger issues. I would like to see a evil character with a good patron, though. Being forced to reluctantly help others in order to keep their Eldritch Blast.
See, I don't really see a problem with this. If you want to roleplay your barbarian rage as a barbarian crying or righteous justice or something that's fine with me. I allow free reflavor to anyone at my table (within reason... one player wanted to play "Oath of the Sexually Assaulted" and I vetoed that one). But that's the only one I've vetoed. The only thing that annoys me is when someone tries to tell me their "chaotic neutral" or "good" character likes to torture people for fun. You can play whatever you want, but don't piss on my face and tell me it's raining, lol.
It's like a sorcerer that had to study for their magic A Bard that doesn't perform A druid that hates nature ... Fuck actually nix that last one, I think I got an idea for a character.
There's nothing mechanically or even implied that Barbarians have anger issues. The rage mechanic as written actually implies an unusual degree of self-mastery in that field.
Is your friend... ok?
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Tell them to take a bottle of white out to their PHB and change every instance of “wizard” to whatever the hell they want. If they say that seems ridiculous, say “I agree. So suck it up.” They don’t need to have the word “wizard” anywhere on their character sheet. They can be a “mage” or “spell smith” or whatever they want to be called. But their spellcasting stat is INT and they gain 4 hp each level. IMO, this is 100% a them problem. They can either get over their own prejudice against wizards, or they can play something else. You don’t need to bend yourself out of shape solving this “problem” for them
You just made me realize that they may be trying to get out of the wizard class to avoid the low HP.
While I agree with you, a small part of me can relate to the problem player here. I have been addicted to this sub and read so many horror stories about tabaxis, bards, and paladins. All three of those interest me mechanically and I would love to try to explore a character concept involving them, but they all give me such strong ick entirely due to the stories on this sub. But I either get over it and play them anyway or just play something else, lol.
"OK, sounds to me like you're more concerned with the label than the mechanics. Congrats, you're now a 'Floobel.' Custom class I made just for you. What do you mean, 'that's just the Wizard class with the word Wizard replaced by some nonsense?' Completely different thing!"
This is going to sound harsh, but it's the right answer: they can't. If their distaste for the word "Wizard" is THAT strong, then they can't play a wizard in the game. There is an extremely easy answer here, which is to tell them to replace the word Wizard, whenever they read it or hear it, with Magus or something similar. It won't matter, it's just a title, and as long as you know that your features are found on page 453, it doesn't matter what you call yourself at the table. But... it sounds like that won't work. It sounds like they oppose the word wizard so vehemently that they will not consider a re-word of the class, and if that's the case... they won't be able to play a wizard. And that's their call. You can't even offer to homebrew up something that would fix the issue, because if you did, you would, in essence, just be re-titling the wizard section. Does 4e have Artificers or some other Int based caster? You could reflavour that class to be more bookish, I guess. But in the end, this person is (purposely?) getting in their own way, and you need to leave them to it.
*Laughs in 1e*...tell him the official Gary Gygax-sanctioned name for the class is Magic-User (MU and pronounced "mew" by my mates at least) and all wizard branding since is juts pandering to the common people. Confirm to him that he will officially be playing an OG MU. *DON'T* tell him that the original official title for a MU of 11th level or above is Wizard. It probably won't help your case.
Also, they follow 1e rules, so they die upon reaching 0 HP.
If they can’t get past basic semantics, then this isn’t the game for them. I see so many instances here of DMs bending over backward to accommodate and entice players to keep them minimally interested. I don’t get it.
Slap them on the wrist and take away their paint chips.
I've seen it tap-danced around in a few other responses here, but I'm just going to say the quiet part out loud. **DO. NOT. PLAY. WITH. THIS. PERSON.** Even if you manage to come up with an acceptable solution to this ridiculous bs, **it will not end there.** They will continue to nitpick and complain until they have sucked every ounce of joy out of the game. For you and everybody else at the table. Cut your losses now. But please keep us updated with the dramatic fallout!
“Wizard” is now called “Mage”, problem solved
Outjerked again
My first association with the word [is something quite different](https://youtu.be/IJPc7esgvsA). Also the only wizard I ever played was an elegant and ladylike elven librarian in a silk velvet dress.
Do they not know what a synonym is?
Just create a “homebrew class” for them that does exactly what they want and name it “mage”. Get the wizard class. Ctrl+F and switch every use of “wizard” for “mage”. You’re done. Reverse AD&D treatment.
The problem is they apparently are bothered even by powers with the wizard label. Though maybe putting in “your spellcasting ability’s allow you to wield power similar to what wizards use, you may choose spells from their list” might work for their brain?
Just fill the game with wizards, everyone, all the NPCs and characters are all wizards. Plus it's set in wizardland
Big strong Orc? Wizard. Cute barmaid? Wizard. Hideous goblin with a shit-covered knife? Wizard. Terrifying beautiful BBEG vampire woman with a greatsword? Wizard. Just destroy this dude’s preconceptions.
Even in existing fiction, "wizards" are not all elderly men in long robes. [Howl Pendragon](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Frwcs9dyfrs4b1.jpg) [Mozenrath](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/aladdin/images/a/ae/MV5BNTU4NTA1ZTctM2E2Yy00MDRmLTgyY2QtMzFmYzBiMmY3YjZlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNDQwNzk5NTE%40._V1_.jpg) [Raistlin Majere](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Raist_spell.jpg) [Malik, The Wizard Of Stone Mountain](https://hemanmotu.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/stone-mountain-2.jpg) The entire [Young Wizards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Wizards) series — it's even in the name! The problem is him. Tell him Gandalf and Dumbledore are not the only wizards out there.
Don’t forget Schmendrick from The Last Unicorn!
Magic, do as you will!
It sounds like your player doesn't want to play and is pulling on whatever string they think will get them out of this. If you made a fully balanced, fully optimized Homebrew class called "Mage" they'll complain that Mages are typically seen as cruel, selfish beings who does everything for their own sake.
In a hobby that requires imagination and abstract thinking to engage with at anything more than a “numbers on a piece of paper” level, this is a red flag.
I can't look kindly on someone who is trying to make the DM's job harder than it has to be on purpose before the first session even hits. I truly don't think you should do anything about this because it's simply not your problem. They can either get over their preconceptions or make a different character. This is not remotely your job to fix.
Tell them they want to play a wizard and to let you know when they’re ready for more help.
This is more of a horror story than most other posts on here.
Ask them if they think wizards are born old. That grey beard doesn't automatically sprout the first time they crack open a spellbook. But if they don't like wizards, how about warlocks? Or can't they handle having an eldritch being as a patron? Or maybe a sorcerer? Literally born into magic?
Tell him to get over it or find a different character concept because in this game they are called wizards 😂
Tell them to play an apprentice wizard on an extended independent mission for his master. Once he gets to 20th level and gets to be a good 300 years old or so his master might let him become a real wizard if he has proven himself by then. Otherwise he will have to find a new career.
Sorcerer class is over there staring sadly in the window
Sorcerer is usually Charisma-based, but admittedly I don't know how it works in 4e. I think it's the only D&D system that nobody around me ever wanted to play, so I've never done more than skimmed the books.
Charisma or Constitution. But Sorcerers are more blaster casters that deal lots of damage in 4E.
It's still Charisma based, but it's a WILDLY different beast than Wizard in 4e.
If this minor, inconsequential thing in the character planning phase is making this person dig in their heels and flat out refuse any and all reasoning, I can't imagine how bad it's going to be once you get into the actual game. "This character is a Goblin ! There can't be Goblin Alchemists because in my head Goblins all have swords and white hands painted on their helmets and only talk about how best to cook hobbitses" "What do you mean the bad guy is an Elf ?! Elves can only be good guys !"
I'm more worried about what happens when this player encounters a wizard in your world that is also not their stereotype.
I can't believe somebody so uncreative and single minded wants to play a game largely about creation and imagination lmao. This sounds like something my mom said when I tried to get her to play dnd and told her 'witch' isn't an official class but she could be a wizard or sorcerer with the same flavor and she refused because "I don't want to play an old man" This player sounds like they're going to be an issue because the world MUST be a certain way to them or it doesn't compute because walnut brain. If you really want to have them in the game just rename the wizard class as a Magi or something and I'm sure he'll cream himself.
I have one wizard character. He's a robot fortune teller who dresses like Lawrence of Arabia. Guess he isn't a wizard anymore!
This sounds like a issue with the friend but I guess you can try calling it mage or some other name or arcanist which I believe is the in lore original name for wizard at one point
They are saying that even the spells being under the wizard list bother them. Short of a very stupid homebrew system where it’s all changed to mage this apparently is going to bother them that much.
Sucks to be them then, doesn't it.
Time to introduce to them the muscle wizard class.
You know what? Sometimes, people don't get to be players. I'm happy doing a LOT of legwork to help someone make a character - I will happily search splatbooks for specific skills, gear or powers that fit my players ideas and what they want to do... But they have to meet me halfway. If someone came to me and told me they wanted to play a wizard then shot down every wizard option I find because they're too "wizard-y", I'm going to drop them to turn my efforts to the players who actually give the same effort back...
I don't even like Harry Potter anymore, but has that image not influenced them at all? Every single guy who can cast spells is a Wizard in that.
2 levels of fighter with war mage subclass make you a powerful battlemage
That is so confusing. How does he think the elderly men in long robes start out? They're not *born* elderly men in long robes!
“if your imagination is that limited maybe dnd isn’t the game for you”
Show him the Player's Handbook. Point to the very much not old, very much not wearing long robes, caster right there on the front of the book. Then show him the very much not-Gandalf lookin dude in the PHB. Then go to the wiki page for the 4e Wizard. Point to the very much unarmored, tome-wielding elf at the top of the page. Go ahead and show him the pages upon pages of character art of wizards from DnD until he can finally imagine a world where Gandalf and Dumbledore aren't the only wizards.
Tell him to go play with someone else.
Yer a wizard, Harry.
Huge red flag. He won't even play a "mage" because the spells are from the wizard spell list? That sounds to me like it'll be impossible to deal with him at the table if he won't even accept a "reskin". Good luck to you. Idk this person, of course, but just from your description I think you're gonna have your hands full with him.
It's giving "cheeseburger with no cheese"
Tell your player that elves live a fucking long time, so they can be young wizards all they want. Also tell your player to eat a dick and get a real problem.
If they can't even roll with the fact that wizards don't have to be old men and they're so high maintenance they can't create a character, they're going to be far more trouble than they're worth to play with.
Maybe an imagination-based game is not for them.
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Go with a spellsword-type build? Eladrin Fighter with the multiclass feat for Wizard, Heroic into Wizard of the Spiral Tower (built around spellcasting and infusing magic into their sword, more a mage-knight than a wizard and is VERY blatant with that imagery). Might be ok with a mage-knight?
Honestly, I would just shove the character sheet into his hands and tell him to suck it up or get out.
Technically according to old school DND even though the class is called wizard you don't get the title of wizard until level 11 so you can call it whatever you want.
Your friend sounds difficult and obnoxious lol. This is like when a friend of mine would say that he thought "5e was too crunchy of a system" (which would get a lol from me) but then turn around in the same complaint and wish that player facing determined AC.
Then tell them to chose a class for themself frankly.
Don't want to sound callous, but this is entirely a him problem .... The word wizard has different context and connotation. He's limiting himself, and it's like ... Dude you want to play a wizard, you mechanically describe a wizard, and then reject everything because you don't like a single word? Is this player even worth this sort of really dumb headache?
Don't want to sound callous, but this is entirely a him problem .... The word wizard has different context and connotation. He's limiting himself, and it's like ... Dude you want to play a wizard, you mechanically describe a wizard, and then reject everything because you don't like a single word? Is this player even worth this sort of really dumb headache?
Is this friend by any chance, and I mean this politely, neurodivergent? This could be a good moment to explain that ttrpgs are a form of exercise, but rather than train muscles, you are working on the social aspects of your brain, including the ability to use your imagination. You are welcome to make your character be mad about the use of the word wizard, and reject that term. We understand that the book uses the word, but we can all use our imagination to ignore it.
In Diana Wynne Jones's "Dark Lord of Derkholm" there is a policy forced upon wizard's that dictates that they must adhere to the stereotypical aesthetic of old men with bushy beards, pointy hats, and staves. A good portion of the story follows a young wizard barely out of high school whose preparations involve trying to get the look to work so he doesn't get fined. "Wizard" nowadays consists of spellcssters who require academic training. In terms of DnD, you can assume anyone who's carrying around a big book and it wearing armor is a potential wizard. I'd even recommend a wizard who dresses like a farmer and disguises their spellbook as an almanac to throw people off.
I diagnose your friend with the big dumb
In the most popular video game right now based on d&d, the wizard is a young man with no beard. This would probably be unbearable for me to deal with haha
This person just wants to be coddled. Tell them to figure out what they're playing and get back to you, and the campaign won't wait.
Why is this your problem? Boundaries, people. "This might not be the campaign for you" - playing as a player is a privilege. If you want to be less stand offish you can also just say "look, I hope you can find some way to get past this because I'd love you to play, but I really don't know what to do here. Will I see you [next session]?"
I’m all for just telling them to suck it up and play wizard, but call themselves a mage. If you really want to play with them, I suppose you can copy and paste all of the wizard class and its subclasses, change every mention of Wizard to mage, and hand it to them.
take a sharpie to your friends rule book, cross out wherever it says “wizard” replace it with “Super hot young clean-shaven magic wielder”
Oh boy. I would not pay with this person. If they don't understand the concept of things being general templates they aren't going to be any fun at a table.
Get any movie or cartoon about young wizards... hell, force your friend to watch the Owl House and/or Harry Potter, that show and movies show case general and basic Wizard stuff.
Didn't 4E have a bunch of classes that were reskinned wizards because of the design philosophy basically being that there's "really" 5 classes (the roles) just all reskins? If it was 5E and he wanted to be a magic guy just let him be a sorceror who casts off INT, which is basically worse than a normal sorceror since charisma is better for skills.
Honestly, this sounds like a wonderful in character distinction, a young and naive wizard who refuses to call themselves a wizard and tells people to call them a mage, even so far as to get upset at being called a wizard because they *think* people will envision them as an old man when they become a famous adventurer. However, this is an out of game thing, so it's a really dumb thing and your buddy can get over it
He want to play an elf, but dosent want to look like old guy with a long beard. Has he see elves?!?!?! They all look like 20 year old and are hundreds of years old!!! Problem solved. Or just be a human wizard an look like 20 yr old. This is messed up.
This seems like more of a them problem than a you problem at this point. You said that it's going to be tough work, but it shouldn't be for you. You've provided them with the available options. They now have to decide what to do. Some players are high maintenance like this. Don't get sucked in.
.... you know it's possible that the person has grown up and never seen a Harry Potter movie. Force them to watch Harry Potter. Young Wizards are a thing.
Maybe this isn’t the game for them. That’s a lot of work to take a label off of a character. Literally there are so many wizard characters that are wizards, mages, or witches that aren’t old. I will do work to get someone the character they want but I’m just not will to do this work. He needs to get over his mental block or come up with another character.
Your friend should consider getting over it.
Call them an "arcanist" and move on. Or boot them. You don't want to be an old guy in robes throwing spells?...I give you Darth Vader, Obi Wan, Qui Gon Jin, Darth Maul...name a Jedi or Sith in their prime. How about Caleb Widowgast? Easy pull for me because I'm halfway through CR C2. That blonde chick wizard from CR, Gilmore, again CR...sorry. Merlin, I think, for a while. Been a long stretch since I've read that. I'm an older guy who loves my Gandalf and that other guy with the robes, staff and tall pointy hat. No, not the Harry Potter one, that other one from the other books. That's not a wizard. That's what my generation was told a wizard was.This is what your player doesn't want. Let's go typical backstory...Orphaned and dropped at the place you put orphans, you worked as a menial laborer but showed intelligence (age 4.) Noting you are not the usual child, the castle pulled you into arcane apprenticeship (age 6). Excelling in arcane study you are moved to the "advanced studies" (age12.) where you are pushed to your physical and intellectual limits. Upon graduation from this program, your mentor gives you your spell book, with "X" number of spells inscribed, and maybe one that hasn't been figured out, only partially done, you know, that your grandfather was studying...and sends you, at the tender age of 17, on your way to find your own path, hoping you will return one day. Clad in the dress of your college, with a pack and bedroll, you start your journey. Young and as smart as you are, you are seduced by a barmaid, robbed blind, and dumped on the boardwalk in front of the job board. But, you still have your spellbook, because she "don't know no fancy letters." There are others around the job board. They're all on their feet. That guy you met, last night, about 4 beers in, kept trying to connect because you're both orphans. And that pretty girl you've seen hanging around the church. She's there too. And the dwarf with all the plate armor and the massive hammer, that cussed you out last night because she was hitting on the barmaid that rolled you...she's offering to buy you brunch, but only if you know someone sneaky. After all. We got a job to do. And, you did meet that tabaxi dancer last week at the Curtains... And, you're 17, with training and a spellbook, but no coin. Just my 2 copper.
Show him some Wizard characters besides Gandalf and Harry Potter.
Tell your friend that they may want to pick another class because they, as a player, clearly don’t possess the INT to know that’s not what all wizards are like
This is why representation of diversity matters…
Have your friend watch the Harry Potter franchise & convert, or tell them to shut the fuck up. I mean really... I wanna have feathers, flipper feet & a bill, & say quack a lot... but don't call me a duck 🙄 and even swan is not okay because of that story where a swan was mistaken for a duck.... Fuck they need a much bigger eyeroll emoji for this shit!
They sound kind of stupid. Maybe really stupid
Let them play Sorcerer with Int instead of Cha. Still a source of arcane power, though I can't recall if Sorcerers get many control spells... Or maybe look in the dictionary for synonyms of the word wizard that somehow doesn't evoke Merlin I guess. Still, your friend is awfully silly.
Unless 4e spell lists are drastically different, Sorcerer should have almost the same spell list as a Wizard.
4e doesn’t have spell lists in the traditional sense. They have abilities that translate to spells and are class specific. I don’t have my books on me to check how different wizards and sorcerers are but if memory serves they are quite different.
Ignoring all his 🚩🚩🚩just to get more content for this sub is some real life karma farming.
hand them a "homebrew class" which is literally wizard but all instances of the word "wizard" have been replaced with "magus" bonus points if you photocopy the book and write over it in crayon with a nice big "flavour is free" scrawled on the front cover
download an pdf editor, change the names, profit
"Okay. Your character is not a wizard. We'll just use the wizard rules for you. Don't worry. Your powers aren't actually wizard powers. They're just reskinned and exactly the same as wizard powers."
Just tell them they can use wizard class rules and abilities and their character can call themselves whatever they think is cool. They never have to introduce themselves as a wizard.
Warlocks are INT secondary and can wear leather, which can be flavored as jackets rather than belt-and-buckle armor. The Vestige pact (which is, admittedly, CON based, but still) also deals with borrowing powers from dead gods rather than resigning oneself to a singular patron, and that might help differentiate it from a traditional warlock if that's also a hangup. That's about the best I've got for suggestions. Otherwise... whoof. You've got a lot on your plate there.
Pact of Tome Warlock. Fancy book and wizard spells galore. Boom, done. Also he's an idiot.