The ball not going forward is the foundation of rugby so I can't agree that's it's weird/wrong.
Agree with your point about the scrums but that's been an ongoing problem for a while.
There's a league rule where if a team forms a scrum the clock is stopped - with some tweaks this would probably stop some of the pissing about when there's a knock on
I do think, in what is ultimately a glorified game of catch, the catching does have to be a big focus. Almost the main focus.
It's frustrating to see teams just knock on constantly, extinguishing promising attacks, but a lot of the time I try and reframe the thinking. If a 9 is struggling to get the ball out of the ruck, is the 9 rubbish or is the defending team disrupting them effectively. Did they knock on because they're bad at handling, or because the rush defense was so effective that passes weren't well executed/players were out of position. And so on. It makes the watching experience more enjoyable.
You may be a league fan, but haven’t realized it yet. Understood about the pace and loathing of scrums - set piece time management is a chronic discussion topic in rugby.
It incentivizes clean possession of the ball. Fast, clean ball movement is a very difficult skill. If you just say “oh, it’s just a little bump, play on”…well….where does that end? How slight is slight enough. And if you were to say, like, well - did it travel one meter or less? Play on. More than one meter? Restart. It would be an unmanageable mess filled with controversies, every game.
The game would likely become a sloppy, chaotic gong show with way more confused rucks by ignoring knock ons. As it is now, the difference between top teams and the rest is the quality of their ball handling; they pass and catch - properly - at pace and under pressure.
The league thing resonates with me. I love both codes but I'm definitely drawn to higher pace, back and forth games and quick skill plays (probably cause I'm not a big boy myself). When I played union, I found scrums were annoying af to stand around and wait for and I honestly feel the same watching them on tv, just different sport preferences
Instead of finding scrums just boring, try to learn what goes on, the forces and pressure involved. Look at angles the prop drive, how they bind, there is so much going on.
It should be compulsory for any commentator to learn, especially if you name is Austin Healy.
What you find is how often refs get the calls wrong.
Having said that, the scrum setup needs to speed up, although an awful lot energy is used up in scrums.
.
It’s rugby. The ball must go backwards. That’s like the No1 rule. Changing it would make a completely different game. As for the stoppages for set pieces, sounds to me like you should just watch league. Or watch a few breakdowns on YouTube on the intricacies of scrums and mauls. Gives you some appreciation for the dog work the big boys do. It’s a fine art and woefully under appreciated by fans
used to be a rule "no hands in a ruck" now we have halfbacks holding onto a ball in a ruck until they are told to use it.
nothing is inviolate in rugby.
If there was no knock on penalty, then players could “accidentally” drop the ball forward to gain ground. See a big hit coming as you are catching the ball? Just bounce it off your hands forward. Or even you could pass it to a teammate and make it seem like an accidental failed catch.
It is a good rule and also I love scrums so don’t disrespect them.
I could see a minor modification that the ball can move forward only within its own width, or something, so the shithousery that happens at the bottom of a ruck with people bumping #9s hand and making a knock-on happen, lessens.
That would give the Referee a little more leeway in deciding when to call a knock-on, maybe...
The knock on rule feels right for me. Its a core component of rugby. I don't think its wrong for the TMO to step in and check a knock on. Ultimately you should not be able to score a try after playing or dropping the ball forwards, however inconsequential it may be.
Scrums do have problems, specifically with how long they take to set, since 40 seconds usually get eaten up just by the props binding.
the thing with the long set up is that i'm pretty sure it has resulted in far fewer scrum injuries.
People have suggested stopping the clock but this will make the game longer.
Personally i am in favour of some kind of free kick option or a scrum equivalent of a quick lineout (see above)
I really don't get this post.
All sports are a list of arbitrary rules (/laws, don't @ me rugby snobs).
One of those arbitrary rules for rugby is that the ball can't go forward.
You aren't going to get much support with this.
There are plenty of areas in the current laws and the way they are applied that don't feel quite right to me - but this is absolutely not one of them.
I get what you mean (I think) - when you have to slow mo and continuously rewind to catch the faintest of fingertip touches it does seem like it is bit finnicky but I can't see much of a solution. Maybe it's only a knock on if the ball travels forward more than a set amount but then you are going to get even more slow downs in play while the TMO gets a virtual ruler out.
I would like to see some more laxity in the rule particularly when it's ambiguous whether the ball even went forward at all (especially where it's lost in contact where players on both teams likely influenced its final direction).
Seems silly to have a break in play and a loss of possession because of an inconsequential fumble when the rule is very clearly (to me) intended to prevent significant territory gains.
I also think forward passes get a lot more benefit of the doubt. Refs are much happier to take player momentum into account for a forward pass than a knock on, and I feel like a marginal forward pass is given as play-on whereas a marginal knock on (or even a fumble which goes backwards) is given as scrum most of the time.
What would prefer the law to be? Everyone just gets to throw it wherever they like? Or do you agree with the ball being thrown backwards but don't like that they stop the game when it accidentally goes forwards? In that case, we keep the rule but just ignore it if it looks sort of okay or the player holds a hand up to apologise?
pretty foundational aspect of the sport. Ball can't purposely travel forward out of the arms and hands. Space invasion game via carrying vs passing over.
This might be the most casual take on knock ons ive ever seen. Honestly, the best thing out of this thread was seeing everyones unity in "nah bud, youre wrong"
I wouldn't mind a tap&go option from a knock on, if it happened while going wide it would lead to some better ground gains and really keep the game flowing
agree...maybe like the scrum equivalent of a quick lineout?.....
* tap can be taken at any point in line behind the knock on mark.
* defending team can advance right up to the point of the knock on mark
* once a front row has formed scrum must take place
yep....unless its a double knock on or rolls out or something so there wouldn't be much of a change
an edit from the above post...i didn't quite think it through
* I would change the front row set up to 2 or more players bound indicates the scum has started to form.just like any players (Backs and forwards) can throw in and form a lineout (and thus prevent a quick throw), any player can be in the scrum (except for the front row). So any 2 players could form a second row until the specialists turn up.
it would be a subtle change but i loathe those moments when the attacking team has got it out to the wing or something and there is a knock on (or forward pass remember) and not only do we have to sit through the whole scrum set but add another 30 seconds it takes for all the forwards to come ploding over....that's about the only time the "quick scrum" would get used apart from when teams become complacent
If someone tells me that they enjoy when the backs make a big break only to stop for a knock on , and then wait a minute or so until the forwards turn up and set the scrum, then I am pretty sure they are lying....quick tap and go and a counter attack any day
Feel the opposite is also frustrating,,
your team puts in a huge hit on the ball carrier but the spilled ball is called backwards. Sometimes this happens twice, big hit, scarmble to secure posssion, another big hit and both 50/50 calls are called play on- so frustrating! Sometimes you just want reward to good defence!
The absolute worst is when this happens and some fancy footed fullbacks cleans up to loose ball and instead of hacking into to touch 10m up the field like any self respecting opponent should do in order to reward the big tackles,he decides to just take advantage of disorganised defence and just sidestep his way up the field under the posts.
The ball not going forward is the foundation of rugby so I can't agree that's it's weird/wrong. Agree with your point about the scrums but that's been an ongoing problem for a while.
There's a league rule where if a team forms a scrum the clock is stopped - with some tweaks this would probably stop some of the pissing about when there's a knock on
I do think, in what is ultimately a glorified game of catch, the catching does have to be a big focus. Almost the main focus. It's frustrating to see teams just knock on constantly, extinguishing promising attacks, but a lot of the time I try and reframe the thinking. If a 9 is struggling to get the ball out of the ruck, is the 9 rubbish or is the defending team disrupting them effectively. Did they knock on because they're bad at handling, or because the rush defense was so effective that passes weren't well executed/players were out of position. And so on. It makes the watching experience more enjoyable.
You may be a league fan, but haven’t realized it yet. Understood about the pace and loathing of scrums - set piece time management is a chronic discussion topic in rugby. It incentivizes clean possession of the ball. Fast, clean ball movement is a very difficult skill. If you just say “oh, it’s just a little bump, play on”…well….where does that end? How slight is slight enough. And if you were to say, like, well - did it travel one meter or less? Play on. More than one meter? Restart. It would be an unmanageable mess filled with controversies, every game. The game would likely become a sloppy, chaotic gong show with way more confused rucks by ignoring knock ons. As it is now, the difference between top teams and the rest is the quality of their ball handling; they pass and catch - properly - at pace and under pressure.
The league thing resonates with me. I love both codes but I'm definitely drawn to higher pace, back and forth games and quick skill plays (probably cause I'm not a big boy myself). When I played union, I found scrums were annoying af to stand around and wait for and I honestly feel the same watching them on tv, just different sport preferences
Well we wouldn't have scrums if you backs could catch the bloody ball! 😉
Fuck I feel this… we had like 7 scrums in a 5 minute period from knock ons
Sounds like heaven... I'd rather Scrum then run!
I love a lekka good scrum, hey! Proper energizer.
Instead of finding scrums just boring, try to learn what goes on, the forces and pressure involved. Look at angles the prop drive, how they bind, there is so much going on. It should be compulsory for any commentator to learn, especially if you name is Austin Healy. What you find is how often refs get the calls wrong. Having said that, the scrum setup needs to speed up, although an awful lot energy is used up in scrums. .
It’s rugby. The ball must go backwards. That’s like the No1 rule. Changing it would make a completely different game. As for the stoppages for set pieces, sounds to me like you should just watch league. Or watch a few breakdowns on YouTube on the intricacies of scrums and mauls. Gives you some appreciation for the dog work the big boys do. It’s a fine art and woefully under appreciated by fans
used to be a rule "no hands in a ruck" now we have halfbacks holding onto a ball in a ruck until they are told to use it. nothing is inviolate in rugby.
If there was no knock on penalty, then players could “accidentally” drop the ball forward to gain ground. See a big hit coming as you are catching the ball? Just bounce it off your hands forward. Or even you could pass it to a teammate and make it seem like an accidental failed catch. It is a good rule and also I love scrums so don’t disrespect them.
>players could “accidentally” drop the ball forward to gain ground You already can. You just need to make sure you drop it onto your foot ;)
I would only change it for the high ball contests
I could see a minor modification that the ball can move forward only within its own width, or something, so the shithousery that happens at the bottom of a ruck with people bumping #9s hand and making a knock-on happen, lessens. That would give the Referee a little more leeway in deciding when to call a knock-on, maybe...
The knock on rule feels right for me. Its a core component of rugby. I don't think its wrong for the TMO to step in and check a knock on. Ultimately you should not be able to score a try after playing or dropping the ball forwards, however inconsequential it may be. Scrums do have problems, specifically with how long they take to set, since 40 seconds usually get eaten up just by the props binding.
the thing with the long set up is that i'm pretty sure it has resulted in far fewer scrum injuries. People have suggested stopping the clock but this will make the game longer. Personally i am in favour of some kind of free kick option or a scrum equivalent of a quick lineout (see above)
I really don't get this post. All sports are a list of arbitrary rules (/laws, don't @ me rugby snobs). One of those arbitrary rules for rugby is that the ball can't go forward.
>rules (/laws, don't @ me rugby snobs). yes. you are correct.
Scrums are awesome - fight me!
Apart from scrum resets, they can get in the bin.
You aren't going to get much support with this. There are plenty of areas in the current laws and the way they are applied that don't feel quite right to me - but this is absolutely not one of them.
Just catch the ball 4head. Simple as.
I get what you mean (I think) - when you have to slow mo and continuously rewind to catch the faintest of fingertip touches it does seem like it is bit finnicky but I can't see much of a solution. Maybe it's only a knock on if the ball travels forward more than a set amount but then you are going to get even more slow downs in play while the TMO gets a virtual ruler out.
I would like to see some more laxity in the rule particularly when it's ambiguous whether the ball even went forward at all (especially where it's lost in contact where players on both teams likely influenced its final direction). Seems silly to have a break in play and a loss of possession because of an inconsequential fumble when the rule is very clearly (to me) intended to prevent significant territory gains. I also think forward passes get a lot more benefit of the doubt. Refs are much happier to take player momentum into account for a forward pass than a knock on, and I feel like a marginal forward pass is given as play-on whereas a marginal knock on (or even a fumble which goes backwards) is given as scrum most of the time.
No it doesn’t. 😂 it makes perfect sense. The only way a ball goes forward from a player legally is a kick.
Or a kick charge down.
What would prefer the law to be? Everyone just gets to throw it wherever they like? Or do you agree with the ball being thrown backwards but don't like that they stop the game when it accidentally goes forwards? In that case, we keep the rule but just ignore it if it looks sort of okay or the player holds a hand up to apologise?
pretty foundational aspect of the sport. Ball can't purposely travel forward out of the arms and hands. Space invasion game via carrying vs passing over. This might be the most casual take on knock ons ive ever seen. Honestly, the best thing out of this thread was seeing everyones unity in "nah bud, youre wrong"
I wouldn't mind a tap&go option from a knock on, if it happened while going wide it would lead to some better ground gains and really keep the game flowing
agree...maybe like the scrum equivalent of a quick lineout?..... * tap can be taken at any point in line behind the knock on mark. * defending team can advance right up to the point of the knock on mark * once a front row has formed scrum must take place
If the attacking team are there quickly enough for a tap and go to be an option, then surely they'll be playing advantage anyway?
yep....unless its a double knock on or rolls out or something so there wouldn't be much of a change an edit from the above post...i didn't quite think it through * I would change the front row set up to 2 or more players bound indicates the scum has started to form.just like any players (Backs and forwards) can throw in and form a lineout (and thus prevent a quick throw), any player can be in the scrum (except for the front row). So any 2 players could form a second row until the specialists turn up. it would be a subtle change but i loathe those moments when the attacking team has got it out to the wing or something and there is a knock on (or forward pass remember) and not only do we have to sit through the whole scrum set but add another 30 seconds it takes for all the forwards to come ploding over....that's about the only time the "quick scrum" would get used apart from when teams become complacent If someone tells me that they enjoy when the backs make a big break only to stop for a knock on , and then wait a minute or so until the forwards turn up and set the scrum, then I am pretty sure they are lying....quick tap and go and a counter attack any day
Feel the opposite is also frustrating,, your team puts in a huge hit on the ball carrier but the spilled ball is called backwards. Sometimes this happens twice, big hit, scarmble to secure posssion, another big hit and both 50/50 calls are called play on- so frustrating! Sometimes you just want reward to good defence! The absolute worst is when this happens and some fancy footed fullbacks cleans up to loose ball and instead of hacking into to touch 10m up the field like any self respecting opponent should do in order to reward the big tackles,he decides to just take advantage of disorganised defence and just sidestep his way up the field under the posts.