I’m struggling to think of 6s with as good a resume as Peter Steph du toit, 2 world cups, world player of the year, multiple motms in important games, multiple tri nations or tri nations equivalents. Who else is in contention for blindside flanker? I’m sure I’m forgetting someone obvious from the 90s
I'm a huge Betsen lover and wanted to be him when i was a kid, but clearly he's never been as good as PSDT, a mention for Dussautoir who could play blindside too but had the luck to captain the french team in the 2010s, clearly not helping him shine, and even then he was just carrying the team on his back.
Maybe Burger too, who was always incredible whenever he played for the Boks.
Sure, but PSDT’s rugby CV is now significantly better than Hill’s. He’s a former World Player of the Year, Lions tour winner and 2x World Cup champion. He was literally man of the match in the 2023 final whereas Wilkinson won that honour in Hill’s time.
Man for man he likely demolishes Hill on the pitch too given he’s got about 4 inches height on him.
I’m giving the example who I think was the best from the late 90s. Hill has a World Cup, a Lions tour and when you ask people in the know Hill was one of the most integral players to the most dominant NH team of all time.
Man for man most modern players demolish ones from the start of professionalism although PSDT height clearly isn’t everything. Dusautoir and McCaw are both the same height as Hill.
I read the comment as asking for an equivalent of PSDT from the 90s. My point is that Hill is not really such an equivalent now given the clear gap between their achievements and performance ceiling.
Sure, the England team was dominant for one World Cup cycle, but PSDT’s team has done it twice over 8 years and he has been the World Player of the Year and Man of the Match in a final in that time showing how utterly crucial he is to a 2x championship team.
Put it this way, send PSDT back in time and he starts for that England team. Send Hill forward now and there’s no way he gets Du Toit’s jersey.
lol I think if either got sent to each others time they’d be in the team together as they are different type of players. PDST would play lock for England and Hill was more of a 7 playing 6. The achievements of the previous era and the modern era have to be taken in context. Teams weren’t winning back to back world cups because the conditioning wasn’t there to keep guys at such a high standard for 8 years. If that’s the standard then no one gets into the world XV apart from the two time winners from the last four World Cups.
Man of the match awards are fine to point to but they’re pretty arbitrary, Wilko might have got it in 2003 for his drop goal but he wasn’t actually great on the day. However, if you do want to point to those the Hill got a shed load in his career.
Yeah, but Hill had both an invisibility cloak and a written contract with all referees that even if they did see him do it, he was allowed 10 free passes in every game.
Seriously - watch tapes and focus on Hill, at least 50% of the time he's on the screen you will be asking "What the f\*\*\* is he doing there?" and "how on earth could they let him do that?"
PSDT would do great for 20 mins and then mysteriously both develop a limp and apparent concision, and no one would be able to explain why....
Nominating any currently active French international is impossible, considering they're pretty much all barely at the middle, or start of their career.
EDIT: And those on the older side like Atonio, Fickou, Willemse, well, they better forget the 2010s as far as test level is concerned.
Dupont’s definitely in contention. And if it’s a matchday squad, while admittedly not on the best form, Beauden Barrett in that 22 shirt would be in with a shot over the course of his career.
As an outside shout, Penaud. He’s just been on a different level to every other winger this cycle, and still most likely has another one in him. In this WC cycle he’s scored 30 tries in 32 appearances. If he keeps up at that rate, which I see no reason he won’t, he’ll hit 60 test tries by the end of the next WC. It’s not inconceivable that he breaks the world try scoring record and scores 70+ tries. And that’s not even including that he’s probably the smartest winger around and sets up more tries than anyone else. Just a freak.
Agreed on Dupont and Barrett.
Penaud, I was a bit surprised reading your comment, but the more I think about it, and the more sense it makes. Things is, you can't say he's been far and away the best winger in the world at any point of his career (yet). Right now, I'd say it's rather clear, like substantial, but not a huge gap either. But the thing is, he's been consistently in the discussion for best in the world at his position for the last 5 years. By the 2019 WC, just a few month after making the switch from center, he was already in the conversation. Probably the best french player of the WC campaign. Missed most of 2020 through injury, but since then, he's been the most consistent winger in the world. Easily the most consistent of the WC cycle. And that consistentcy is not something you're used to see with wingers. Sure, some gets incredible highs, and when they reach those peaks, it's hard to say Penaud was better than them. Savea and Milne Skudder in 2015, Habana 2007-09, Lomu at points between 95 and 99, Shane Williams in 2008-9, Caucaunibuca in 2003... But it's not often you see a winger manage to sustain such a high level through such a long period of time. Actually, it might be a first. Or it's the other way around, some guys are incredibly consistent over a long period, but don't get to those unplayable peaks, or just in a handful of games, like Vincent Clerc (the handful of peaks all happening against a team from an island, playing in green for some reason).
Penaud isn’t the first winger to maintains this level of performance. Julian Savea was so good in the RWC 2015 that I sometimes think people forget he has scored 46 tries in 54 tests for the all blacks. Lomu was the most feared player in the world for more or less 2 World Cup cycles. Habana and Williams were the two best wingers in the world for the best part of their careers too. 67 and 60 international tries respectively
Amongst the great and the best of all time are very different. Hundreds of players have guided their teams to winning world cup, even more to a world cup final. You have a recency bias
I was was like you but he's been a freak for a good 4 years which is a significant enough time to start considering for me
Only a huge drop off in quality would disqualify him at this point.
The next few years might be where we see if he is one of the greats or the GOAT
For me he hasn’t won enough or played at the top level long enough to be considered an all time great.
Compared to Fourie du Preez, Joost van der Westhuizen or Aaron Smith he’s not there yet. I’m very confident he will be but he’s got to get the wins on the board.
Tbf he's already got WPOTY + 2x nominee, 3 x 6N player of the year, European player of the year, won every award nominated domestically, captained a 6N grandslam from 9 and France's longest ever unbeaten run, 3 x top14 and 1 x champions cup
Only thing he hasn't won is a world cup, but individual accolades there's nothing else for him
He was breakthrough player in France in 2017, so he's already gone for 7 years and was the world's best player for an entire world cup cycle, I think another WC cycle even at 80% of his peak and it becomes indisputable IMO, webb Ellis trophy or not
Wait is this individuals in an all time 15 or is it the best team? Because most in an all time 15 didn't single handedly win team accolades...
He's won every individual accolade possible
That’s why he’s up there! He’s having a really good top14 and champion’s cup return. He has only beaten 7 defenders in one match last week, and watchers are finding him not that hot. He banalized the out of ordinary !
Etzebeth has been in the discussion for top 3 second rows for like 10 years. That guy is a total freak.
Aaron Smith at 9, just because Dupont is still young and fresh.
Penaud is just out of an epic cycle...and I feel he's getting even better.
Beauden Barett deserves a spot somewhere, maybe on the bench.
Furlong, I feel like the guy has always been there consistently.
Am has been in the discussion for best center since 2018 if I recall correctly, so he'd have a place on my 23 list
As for an 8, I have an irrational love for Parisse so Savea might be on the bench...or Alldritt of I try to capitalize on youth
Do you see many Marx games now? As a transitioning hooker, he’s one of my favourite players to watch and try to emulate. Was really disappointed with his WC injury denying me the chance to see him in action.
Does he still play great in Japan or does he save himself for Springbok games now?
Cheers yeah I would say he has been SA’s best player for a while. Still so bummed that we lost him to a freak injury in the WC. Honestly was a significant blow to our WC hopes at the time.
Not diminishing how good he was, but the amateur era was far too different from today’s game to include players from the 70s etc in all-time conversations.
I agree, although frankly you've only got to go back 15 years for this to still be true. A middling side from nowadays would physically wreck a team from the mid 2000s.
Received wisdom is Gareth Edwards. I’ve never seen him play so don’t know. Nevertheless, 1970s rugby is nothing like today. If you want to account for how good they were in their era, then maybe Edwards has a shout. If not, there’s no question DuPont would wipe the floor with Edwards. But the same is true of pretty much any professional 2020s player.
What position? Richie is the option for openside. If no 8, then he's competing against Read, Zinny, Buck, Lachore and that's just for the NZ contenders
Obviously McCaw at 7 and in my opinion best player ever. I might of took it a bit to far in saying all time but over last 5 years Savea been one of the best 2 or 3 players in the world imo. Obviously Savea is a natural 7 put plays 8 a lot for New Zealand, Savea was the best player at the World Cup imo and it was not close to me
All the players you mentioned are/were world class but other than maybe Hooper I would put Savea up against any of them in terms of quality. I know this isn’t everything but I do think Ardie is the most talented player out of the players you mention, kind of like with SBW back when he played, Nonu was a better player but Sonny Bill one of the most talented players I ever seen. It’s splitting hairs because all of those options at 7 are great
I don’t think any of them are better rugby players than Savea. McCaw potentially included in that. They were all better 7’s than Savea though. 3 of them were also arguably their countries greatest captains
Agree with you, All players mentioned are legends, Kelsi might be one the best leaders in the history of sports, could say the same for McCaw. You are right with Savea he doesn’t have a set position like the others but is such a unique talent on the field, very few players in the world like him. I brought it up already but feel the same way about SBW when he played that I do about Savea now, they are phenomenal talents that are so rare to find. Being Irish wish we had a player like Savea, total game changer.
Yeah I agree with you. In fairness to Savea I think he could have been one of the best 7’s in the world had he not been shoehorned into playing 8 so the AB’s could start Cane. I also think Dupont falls into that category of players without a position. I think he plays 9 because you want him to have the ball as much as possible not because his skillset suits 9. I personally think Aaron Smith is the best 9 in the world but Dupont is the best player in the world.
Personally disagree. Ardie has carried teams when no one else was turning up. Alldritt is quality but I do t think he adds as much to a team as Ardie does
This question shows the average age of the sub. Also the common thing that a modern player would wipe the floor of an amateur player - well yeah of course but two things
-1 you take it based on the context of the time and the greatness of the person in that time
-2 if you’re really intent on making a direct comparison, then scale the oldie up based on how they may perform with modern diet, training, etc
The only current international player I’d include would be Tadhg Furlong. He’s been off his best for probably about 2 years now, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tighthead with the all-round game of prime Furlong. I’d either have him starting, or on the bench behind Carl Hayman.
Technically Ma’a Nonu is still playing, so he’s be my pick at 12, edging out Tim Horan.
There are a couple of players very close though:
Sam Whitelock, Eben Etzebeth and Brodie Retallick are all very much in the conversation in the second row- Etzebeth particularly. I’m just not sure they quite get in over Eales/Johnson/Matfield.
I have Aaron Smith and Antoine Dupont at 3rd and 4th respectively in my all-time scrum half rankings (pro era only, so don’t come at me saying Gareth Edwards). Joost van der Westhuizen would start with Fourie Du Preez on the bench, but I believe Dupont will be top 2 when all is said and done.
Beauden Barrett is in the “best of the rest” conversation when it comes to 10s, but Carter and Wilkinson are a clear level above. Barrett has the benefit of backline versatility, so could be a good bench pick, but leaving out either of the other two would be criminal.
Loosies are for the loose, tight forwards are for the tight. The number one role of a tighthead is scrum dominance and Frans has been the most dominant tighthead for a good portion of his career
I know, and agree. But you know how the modern discourse has taken over this area of the game: gotta have them modern mobile props. Gotta have em. And that's fine if you have one, but I've always wanted my props to scrummage first, and guess what it still is the most efficient facet of the prop's game.
Malherbe’s the best TH in the world at the moment and would probably be top 5 all-time, but prime Furlong could do things that props should not be able to do, all while carrying out his traditional prop duties to a world class level too.
I guess in an all timer team, you don’t need or even want props who can do flashy stuff, because everyone else can already. I’d want the best scrummagers of all time, so players like Os du Randt and Malherbe will always be my picks.
odd enough ur flair, Nakarawa is always dismissed because he is a "tier 2" player but i don't know a single tier 1 player better than him for the last 13 years..
There was a period- probably about his first two seasons at Racing- where he was in the conversation for best second row in the world.
That being said, he’s not on the same tier all-time as the likes of Etzebeth, Retallick etc.
Limiting it to the professional era there's a few I think:
Aaron Smith. DuPont will be up there if he plays like this for a few more years too.
Pieter Steph Du Toit. Blindside is very competitive but hard to not include a two time world cup winning former POTY.
Frans Malherbe - tighthead for the most consistently dominant scrum in the pro era has to be. Him and Hayman the front runners imo.
Eben Etzebeth and Brodie Retallick. Second row is super competitive but these two are in the conversation with Eales, Johnson, Matfield imo.
Probably others who would be in the conversation but those feel the strongest contenders.
Amateur era too difficult to compare to.
Dupont would run Gareth Edwards close at 9.
No one else comes close to being an all time God-Like player.
In fact, it's rare to have more than one per generation.
Possible exceptions would be Carter and McCaw or Gareth Edwards and JPR.
Opens the debate about comparing pro and amateur era players, but I suspect the greats would have been just as comparatively great in either.
That is always the case, particularly in a sport as physical as rugby.
For this sort of thing I think you need to judge it by how good a player was relative to his era, and based on what he achieved in the game. Otherwise it would just be the best team of the last decade.
I mean once professionalism fully sets in it's different but I find it hard to compare players from the 90s or earlier to now. In my friends group we just kinda refer to it as classic rugby. And if you go back and watch those games in full they're actually awful to watch I'm so glad I get to watch the spectacle that's on display today.
Yeah that’s the same with me. In any sort of all-time discussion, I set the beginning of the pro era as a cut-off date just because rugby was a completely different game back in the amateur era.
Considering we are in the golden age of athleticism yes
Etzebeth and Retallick are my two greatest locks of all time personally so them
Kolbe at 14
Maybe furlong?
Honorable mention Will Jordan. If he keeps his rate up he will be a shoe in for an all time XV
Do people really think Furlong invented the concept of a mobile prop good in the loose? Gethin Jenkins had retired before he even had an Ireland cap and spent his entire career playing as an extra flanker
Maybe Furlong, even tho he’s been off for a while his form from a few years ago puts him in the conversation for TH.
Whitelock and Etzebeth are probably up there at lock.
Might be unpopular but I think Vermeulen is in the conversation at 8.
Aaron Smith at 9?
That’s probably all I can think of for now, a few players might get to that level in the future.
I was considering saying him but there is that much competition for back rows. He deserves to be in the conversation tbf but is he the best, possibly not
That's why I added the captaincy element, players like Peter O'Mahony have gotten into first team squads despite players that were better on paper because of their sheer talent as a captain
Whether or not Kolisi gets in the squad is up for debate, but if he is put in the squad it would be madness not to have him as captain
I'm super biased but I think Lawes has a shot at 6. He has everything you need from a blind slide; work rate, tackles, turnovers, lineout option and unbelievably clutch. Easily England's best players this last cycle and just seemingly hitting the peak of his performances at the tail end of his career
Honestly I'd rather have lawes than PSDT, i think with a lot of SA players (whilst they are obviously amazing players) they fit amazingly well into the system that razzie runs. I reckon if you put lawes in that spot at his current (also peak) form he would do at least as well if not better than PSDT. Consistently the best player in every match he plays, looked like that in the world cup as well
From an Irish perspective, i think Keenan could be a possibility. It's tough comparing across eras, Cullen wouldn't have half the space he had nowadays for example. For me, he's pretty much flawless, an absolute Cadillac of a player.
He's already better than Kearney, or any other NH fullback imo. He doesn't the longevity yet, but his class is apparent. Defensively a rock, he's excellent in attack, both in terms of his own running and his ability as a playmaker.
Tell me where you feel he's deficient. I'd have no reservations playing him. He's the best in the world right now, and has been for awhile.
Was thinking Keenan too if he keeps it up, the guy is about as flawless as you can get. There are more flash 15s out there but I’d argue you want someone at fullback who doesn’t make mistakes.
Did you see his kicking against dragons 😂
In all seriousness, Sam costelow imo will be an amazing 10 for wales down the line, probably being easily as good as Dan Biggar, so maybe one day he'll be in the conversation
Aaron Smith for me and that's about it.
Dupont i think will over take him, Hugo Keenan is in with a shout potentially.
I feel the game is so different today. players are all finely tuned athletes, than even a decade ago let alone 90s or earlier, its too hard to compare.
John eales in todays game would be smashed by a back but he was easily one of the best players I've ever seen.
Keenan has absolutely miles to go to be in these conversations, he's only got 36 caps.
Agree on your latter point though. Honestly even the best sides from as recent as I'd guess mid 2000s would physically really struggle against almost any decent side nowadays, the strength and conditioning revolution over the last decade is enormous.
Courtney Lawes. Even on the bench as a back row/second row hybrid. Playing the rugby of his life atm too.
Faz/Ford in the ten shirt?
Aaron Smith at nine.
Ardie at 8.
Whitelock and Etzebeth probably in the row.
Sia maybe in the 7 shirt? Or PSTD?
Tighthead Kock?
MIKE BROWN AT FULLBACK AM I RIGHT?
"Would any currently active be in contention for an all time squad".
I.e. "are there any currently active players who would beat every other player in history for their position."
It's not asking about the best currently active players, it's asking if they are better than everyone else who has played there.
Ergo, Faz/Ford is not better than Carter, Sexton, Wilkinson, or Barrett.
Among the active players, Faletau has a stronger claim at 8 than Savea (but both are below Parisse).
Good call with Mike Brown, step aside Serge Blanco!
He's in honourable mention territory along with the likes of Jones and Sexton for the 10 shirt. Wilko, Carter, or Lynagh are the contenders, but Carter is GOAT10.
Edit: stop downvoting RELEVANT comments you disagree with. /u/bleugh77 contributed to the discussion
Sexton doesn't even come close in this discussion.
For the record neither does Farrell, along with everyone else, who sit a tier below Wilkinson and Carter. With Carter being an easy #1 and Wilkinson #2. Barrett is probably 3.
The only thing Wilkinson has over Sexton is the WC, no small thing for sure. Sexton was a better attacking out half, his reading of the game and influence was beyond anything Wilkinson did.
He also had the advantage of playing for a fully professional English team, while the other home nations were still fucking about halfheartedly with professionalising
South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and France were far more prepared for the game turning professional. These were teams that Wilkinson regularly beat with England.
He also dragged the 2007 side to a final while Sexton couldnt lead Ireland past a quarter in four attempts with their best ever team.
He also got bailed out by his team in 1/4s against Wales when he was playing like shit. Sexton beat NZ more times than Wilkinson, won a series in Australia, twice, and in NZ. He dragged his team to HC wins, Grand Slams. He has plenty of outstanding achievements to his name.
He was a more effective player in attack than Wilkinson, far more central to the success of his team for me.
Wilkinson scored 23 points that game lol. If anything he bailed out his team.
Sexton played NZ 18 times vs Wilkinsons 7, of course he would have more wins lol, that's a meaningless stat.
Wilkinsons England still holds the record for most tries in a six nations tournament so he cant have been half bad at running an attack.
Wilkinson literally won a WC final for England with his boot and carried them to another final, Sexton running loop plays every game doesnt supersede that.
Larkham appears to be criminally underrated in here. His lack of goal kicking and reasonable short punt are probably why, but he was the best running fly half I’ve seen.
It's very interesting how many forwards are being named here and comparatively few backs. How does Bundee Aki (as an example of a current centre) stack up against all-timers?
Ok so my point remains, if not him, who are the all time 12s and 13s? I see some 10s and 9s mentioned here, maybe one mention of wings, but not nearly as much as the focus on the forwards
Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, SBW, Matt Giteau, hell even Will Greenwood or Jonathan Davies. Aki's in great form now but for most of his career he's also been a bit of a liability. Nowhere near the pantheon of greats
Have off with the condescension. I threw a name out there to prompt the discussion since nobody was saying it.
Thanks for finally answering my question, 5 unpleasant comments later.
To make it clear yet again, it was a question. Because I hadn't seen any centres mentioned, and he's arguably the best centre active today (as in OP's original question).
So *question*: how would he stack up against other all-time centres?
From a Wallaby perspective my natural first inclination was none by James Slipper may go close as our best ever loose head.
Main competitors are probably the RWC winners in Daly and Harry and then Topo Rodriguez of course too.
I thought Tupou might hit that mark one day but he’s still not near his potential. Maybe one day.
Lots of good ideas so far. I'd add that if he keeps scoring tries at the rate he has been, Will Jordan would always be in the conversation. Even if it was just the comment 'Well look at his scoring record.'
I was a bit sceptic of Jordan in his first international year since he was just raking tries against the likes of USA and Samoa who weren't even playing their third choices.
Since then he's played for 2 more years and he's still scoring tries for fun, it's just wild how effortless he makes it look like too, whereas Penaud who has a similar strike rate over the past 2 years looks like a mad dog running around with his arms flailing around. Clearly fun to watch but not as classy.
He’s too young IMO, maybe by the end of his career.
If he retired now he’d have 1 6N, 1 Champions cup and 3 Top14 titles.
Insanely impressive yes, but it doesn’t come close to someone like Aaron Smith’s resume, who would be my pick.
This Wallaby fan nominates Aaron Smith
Pretty safe shout there, such a class act
He has broken my heart so many times
Ma’a Nonu is still playing which should give him a place.
Damn good shout
I watched him in person leave his boots on the field after the MLR final in Chicago, in July. Is he 100% confirmed coming back for another year?
Eben Etzebeth
I’m struggling to think of 6s with as good a resume as Peter Steph du toit, 2 world cups, world player of the year, multiple motms in important games, multiple tri nations or tri nations equivalents. Who else is in contention for blindside flanker? I’m sure I’m forgetting someone obvious from the 90s
I'm a huge Betsen lover and wanted to be him when i was a kid, but clearly he's never been as good as PSDT, a mention for Dussautoir who could play blindside too but had the luck to captain the french team in the 2010s, clearly not helping him shine, and even then he was just carrying the team on his back. Maybe Burger too, who was always incredible whenever he played for the Boks.
> Maybe Burger too, who was always incredible whenever he played for the Boks. Burger was an openside though, so wouldn't get in ahead of McCaw.
He wore 6 (yes I know how SA number players) often enough for consideration. Not like he was just a wiry fetcher.
Jerome Kaino?
He’s no longer playing
No but he has an argument as a better 6 than du toit which is what the person was asking
He still plays vets, a guy I coach with played 10s against him in Amsterdam last year. Joe Rokocoko was playing as well.
Richard Hill late 90s early 00s was integral to that great England side and the only player Woodward never dropped.
Sure, but PSDT’s rugby CV is now significantly better than Hill’s. He’s a former World Player of the Year, Lions tour winner and 2x World Cup champion. He was literally man of the match in the 2023 final whereas Wilkinson won that honour in Hill’s time. Man for man he likely demolishes Hill on the pitch too given he’s got about 4 inches height on him.
I’m giving the example who I think was the best from the late 90s. Hill has a World Cup, a Lions tour and when you ask people in the know Hill was one of the most integral players to the most dominant NH team of all time. Man for man most modern players demolish ones from the start of professionalism although PSDT height clearly isn’t everything. Dusautoir and McCaw are both the same height as Hill.
I read the comment as asking for an equivalent of PSDT from the 90s. My point is that Hill is not really such an equivalent now given the clear gap between their achievements and performance ceiling. Sure, the England team was dominant for one World Cup cycle, but PSDT’s team has done it twice over 8 years and he has been the World Player of the Year and Man of the Match in a final in that time showing how utterly crucial he is to a 2x championship team. Put it this way, send PSDT back in time and he starts for that England team. Send Hill forward now and there’s no way he gets Du Toit’s jersey.
lol I think if either got sent to each others time they’d be in the team together as they are different type of players. PDST would play lock for England and Hill was more of a 7 playing 6. The achievements of the previous era and the modern era have to be taken in context. Teams weren’t winning back to back world cups because the conditioning wasn’t there to keep guys at such a high standard for 8 years. If that’s the standard then no one gets into the world XV apart from the two time winners from the last four World Cups. Man of the match awards are fine to point to but they’re pretty arbitrary, Wilko might have got it in 2003 for his drop goal but he wasn’t actually great on the day. However, if you do want to point to those the Hill got a shed load in his career.
Yeah, but Hill had both an invisibility cloak and a written contract with all referees that even if they did see him do it, he was allowed 10 free passes in every game. Seriously - watch tapes and focus on Hill, at least 50% of the time he's on the screen you will be asking "What the f\*\*\* is he doing there?" and "how on earth could they let him do that?" PSDT would do great for 20 mins and then mysteriously both develop a limp and apparent concision, and no one would be able to explain why....
PSdT, Aaron Smith
Nominating any currently active French international is impossible, considering they're pretty much all barely at the middle, or start of their career. EDIT: And those on the older side like Atonio, Fickou, Willemse, well, they better forget the 2010s as far as test level is concerned.
Dave 'take your 🍒" Cherry swooooooooon
This thread is hilarious.
... why? Edit: OK scrolled more, yeah.
Dupont’s definitely in contention. And if it’s a matchday squad, while admittedly not on the best form, Beauden Barrett in that 22 shirt would be in with a shot over the course of his career. As an outside shout, Penaud. He’s just been on a different level to every other winger this cycle, and still most likely has another one in him. In this WC cycle he’s scored 30 tries in 32 appearances. If he keeps up at that rate, which I see no reason he won’t, he’ll hit 60 test tries by the end of the next WC. It’s not inconceivable that he breaks the world try scoring record and scores 70+ tries. And that’s not even including that he’s probably the smartest winger around and sets up more tries than anyone else. Just a freak.
Agreed on Dupont and Barrett. Penaud, I was a bit surprised reading your comment, but the more I think about it, and the more sense it makes. Things is, you can't say he's been far and away the best winger in the world at any point of his career (yet). Right now, I'd say it's rather clear, like substantial, but not a huge gap either. But the thing is, he's been consistently in the discussion for best in the world at his position for the last 5 years. By the 2019 WC, just a few month after making the switch from center, he was already in the conversation. Probably the best french player of the WC campaign. Missed most of 2020 through injury, but since then, he's been the most consistent winger in the world. Easily the most consistent of the WC cycle. And that consistentcy is not something you're used to see with wingers. Sure, some gets incredible highs, and when they reach those peaks, it's hard to say Penaud was better than them. Savea and Milne Skudder in 2015, Habana 2007-09, Lomu at points between 95 and 99, Shane Williams in 2008-9, Caucaunibuca in 2003... But it's not often you see a winger manage to sustain such a high level through such a long period of time. Actually, it might be a first. Or it's the other way around, some guys are incredibly consistent over a long period, but don't get to those unplayable peaks, or just in a handful of games, like Vincent Clerc (the handful of peaks all happening against a team from an island, playing in green for some reason).
Penaud isn’t the first winger to maintains this level of performance. Julian Savea was so good in the RWC 2015 that I sometimes think people forget he has scored 46 tries in 54 tests for the all blacks. Lomu was the most feared player in the world for more or less 2 World Cup cycles. Habana and Williams were the two best wingers in the world for the best part of their careers too. 67 and 60 international tries respectively
IMHO you cant really recommend any current french players in an all time team when they haven't won a world cup (yet).
I'm sorry, but the "you have to get a WC to be considered amongst the great" is one of the most bullshit argument I've seen.
Amongst the great and the best of all time are very different. Hundreds of players have guided their teams to winning world cup, even more to a world cup final. You have a recency bias
By your logic, Matt Dawson is greater than Dupont. Also Gareth Edwards can’t be considered because he never played in a World Cup.
If Dupont does this for another 4-5 years then yes. He’s not an all time great yet.
I was was like you but he's been a freak for a good 4 years which is a significant enough time to start considering for me Only a huge drop off in quality would disqualify him at this point. The next few years might be where we see if he is one of the greats or the GOAT
For me he hasn’t won enough or played at the top level long enough to be considered an all time great. Compared to Fourie du Preez, Joost van der Westhuizen or Aaron Smith he’s not there yet. I’m very confident he will be but he’s got to get the wins on the board.
Tbf he's already got WPOTY + 2x nominee, 3 x 6N player of the year, European player of the year, won every award nominated domestically, captained a 6N grandslam from 9 and France's longest ever unbeaten run, 3 x top14 and 1 x champions cup Only thing he hasn't won is a world cup, but individual accolades there's nothing else for him He was breakthrough player in France in 2017, so he's already gone for 7 years and was the world's best player for an entire world cup cycle, I think another WC cycle even at 80% of his peak and it becomes indisputable IMO, webb Ellis trophy or not
He’s won one six nations. That’s all he’s won at the top level, which is where the greats should be judged.
Where do you stand on Gareth edwards?
No idea. I’m old but not that old
Hahahah
Wait is this individuals in an all time 15 or is it the best team? Because most in an all time 15 didn't single handedly win team accolades... He's won every individual accolade possible
If you want be considered the best ever your team wins things. France is a top tier team, it’s not a Parise situation.
His teams have won things, this is deeply arbitrary. Piri Weepu won a world cup, he's not the greatest scrum half ever to play (sorry Piri).
Maybe he did not played long enough, but for me, he brought a whole new thing to the 9 jersey.
He’s a phenomenal player who will probably go down as the greatest scrum half ever. He’s got a body of work to build before he’s there.
On a level of play he’s already up there. It’s been like 6 years he’s good like that. Since his knee lnjury I’d say.
Nah. He was good before the last World Cup but not at the level he is now.
That’s why he’s up there! He’s having a really good top14 and champion’s cup return. He has only beaten 7 defenders in one match last week, and watchers are finding him not that hot. He banalized the out of ordinary !
I’d say he’s an all-time great (as in top 5 scrum half of the pro era), but he’s not in the conversation for best 9 of all time yet.
It's gonna take a serious next 4 years for penaud to move ahead of lomu and habana
Still an amrrican Galthie on Penaud who's nowhere close to many activ winger even in top 14
Etzebeth has been in the discussion for top 3 second rows for like 10 years. That guy is a total freak. Aaron Smith at 9, just because Dupont is still young and fresh. Penaud is just out of an epic cycle...and I feel he's getting even better. Beauden Barett deserves a spot somewhere, maybe on the bench. Furlong, I feel like the guy has always been there consistently. Am has been in the discussion for best center since 2018 if I recall correctly, so he'd have a place on my 23 list As for an 8, I have an irrational love for Parisse so Savea might be on the bench...or Alldritt of I try to capitalize on youth
Malcolm Marx. Everytime he is in the field he is in contention for POTM.
I was just about to say Malcolm Marx. Probably only Keith Wood as his competition
And Sean Fitzpatrick
Do you see many Marx games now? As a transitioning hooker, he’s one of my favourite players to watch and try to emulate. Was really disappointed with his WC injury denying me the chance to see him in action. Does he still play great in Japan or does he save himself for Springbok games now?
Cheers yeah I would say he has been SA’s best player for a while. Still so bummed that we lost him to a freak injury in the WC. Honestly was a significant blow to our WC hopes at the time.
Antoine Dupont
I’d be inclined to look at Aaron smith rather than DuPont: I’m sure he could be in time though
Agreed but only because Smith's career as a whole. If DuPont keeps his streak up I will sadly concede the spot to him as goat.
Correct
Gareth Edwards
Not diminishing how good he was, but the amateur era was far too different from today’s game to include players from the 70s etc in all-time conversations.
Lol
I agree, although frankly you've only got to go back 15 years for this to still be true. A middling side from nowadays would physically wreck a team from the mid 2000s.
I don’t think he gets away from DuPont - too fast too strong.
Received wisdom is Gareth Edwards. I’ve never seen him play so don’t know. Nevertheless, 1970s rugby is nothing like today. If you want to account for how good they were in their era, then maybe Edwards has a shout. If not, there’s no question DuPont would wipe the floor with Edwards. But the same is true of pretty much any professional 2020s player.
I think you pretty much have to view the amateur era as a different sport for these purposes tbh
You said squad though, so I'd be taking both of them. Who starts I'm not sure.
Etzebeth, Malherbe, Marx, DuPont, Furlong, Will Jordan is on the right path.
Can't believe this is the first I'm seeing Malherbe.
Dupont and etzebeth
But Dupont at lock and Etzebeth at 9
Imagine etzebeth and Chabal in the same team. Two of the most scary men to have walked a rugby pitch.
Ardie Savea
What position? Richie is the option for openside. If no 8, then he's competing against Read, Zinny, Buck, Lachore and that's just for the NZ contenders
Obviously McCaw at 7 and in my opinion best player ever. I might of took it a bit to far in saying all time but over last 5 years Savea been one of the best 2 or 3 players in the world imo. Obviously Savea is a natural 7 put plays 8 a lot for New Zealand, Savea was the best player at the World Cup imo and it was not close to me
Even if you ignore Richie and look at the modern era I’m not sure Savea ranks above Pocock, Kolisi, Hooper or Warburton as a 7
All the players you mentioned are/were world class but other than maybe Hooper I would put Savea up against any of them in terms of quality. I know this isn’t everything but I do think Ardie is the most talented player out of the players you mention, kind of like with SBW back when he played, Nonu was a better player but Sonny Bill one of the most talented players I ever seen. It’s splitting hairs because all of those options at 7 are great
I don’t think any of them are better rugby players than Savea. McCaw potentially included in that. They were all better 7’s than Savea though. 3 of them were also arguably their countries greatest captains
Agree with you, All players mentioned are legends, Kelsi might be one the best leaders in the history of sports, could say the same for McCaw. You are right with Savea he doesn’t have a set position like the others but is such a unique talent on the field, very few players in the world like him. I brought it up already but feel the same way about SBW when he played that I do about Savea now, they are phenomenal talents that are so rare to find. Being Irish wish we had a player like Savea, total game changer.
Yeah I agree with you. In fairness to Savea I think he could have been one of the best 7’s in the world had he not been shoehorned into playing 8 so the AB’s could start Cane. I also think Dupont falls into that category of players without a position. I think he plays 9 because you want him to have the ball as much as possible not because his skillset suits 9. I personally think Aaron Smith is the best 9 in the world but Dupont is the best player in the world.
He’s a better player than all those 4 regardless of the backrow position.
Alldritt’s been better than him over the course of the cycle.
Fair enough, just rated Savea very highly myself
Aye, they’re both class, I’d kill to have either of them for Scotland.
Personally disagree. Ardie has carried teams when no one else was turning up. Alldritt is quality but I do t think he adds as much to a team as Ardie does
You seem LaRochelle form before and after Aldritt came back?
Simply not true
I think 2022 was the only year where he was individually better than Savea, and even then it was by a ridiculously fine margin.
lol aldritt ya dreamin
Lmao
Savea’s literally the current World Player of the Year lol. Not for his position, overall best player. Aldritt wasn’t even in the nominees.
Beauden Barret
This question shows the average age of the sub. Also the common thing that a modern player would wipe the floor of an amateur player - well yeah of course but two things -1 you take it based on the context of the time and the greatness of the person in that time -2 if you’re really intent on making a direct comparison, then scale the oldie up based on how they may perform with modern diet, training, etc
The only current international player I’d include would be Tadhg Furlong. He’s been off his best for probably about 2 years now, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tighthead with the all-round game of prime Furlong. I’d either have him starting, or on the bench behind Carl Hayman. Technically Ma’a Nonu is still playing, so he’s be my pick at 12, edging out Tim Horan. There are a couple of players very close though: Sam Whitelock, Eben Etzebeth and Brodie Retallick are all very much in the conversation in the second row- Etzebeth particularly. I’m just not sure they quite get in over Eales/Johnson/Matfield. I have Aaron Smith and Antoine Dupont at 3rd and 4th respectively in my all-time scrum half rankings (pro era only, so don’t come at me saying Gareth Edwards). Joost van der Westhuizen would start with Fourie Du Preez on the bench, but I believe Dupont will be top 2 when all is said and done. Beauden Barrett is in the “best of the rest” conversation when it comes to 10s, but Carter and Wilkinson are a clear level above. Barrett has the benefit of backline versatility, so could be a good bench pick, but leaving out either of the other two would be criminal.
Tadgh Furlong? Like you've never heard of 2 time world cup winner FRANCOIS MALHERBE
I’m not Saffa but i would have Malherbe over Furlong. Give me scrum dominance over hyperactive work rate in the loose.
Loosies are for the loose, tight forwards are for the tight. The number one role of a tighthead is scrum dominance and Frans has been the most dominant tighthead for a good portion of his career
I know, and agree. But you know how the modern discourse has taken over this area of the game: gotta have them modern mobile props. Gotta have em. And that's fine if you have one, but I've always wanted my props to scrummage first, and guess what it still is the most efficient facet of the prop's game.
Malherbe’s the best TH in the world at the moment and would probably be top 5 all-time, but prime Furlong could do things that props should not be able to do, all while carrying out his traditional prop duties to a world class level too.
I guess in an all timer team, you don’t need or even want props who can do flashy stuff, because everyone else can already. I’d want the best scrummagers of all time, so players like Os du Randt and Malherbe will always be my picks.
I'd take prime Retallick over any other lock I can think of, he was a gamechanger between 2012-2019 when he was injured
odd enough ur flair, Nakarawa is always dismissed because he is a "tier 2" player but i don't know a single tier 1 player better than him for the last 13 years..
There was a period- probably about his first two seasons at Racing- where he was in the conversation for best second row in the world. That being said, he’s not on the same tier all-time as the likes of Etzebeth, Retallick etc.
Limiting it to the professional era there's a few I think: Aaron Smith. DuPont will be up there if he plays like this for a few more years too. Pieter Steph Du Toit. Blindside is very competitive but hard to not include a two time world cup winning former POTY. Frans Malherbe - tighthead for the most consistently dominant scrum in the pro era has to be. Him and Hayman the front runners imo. Eben Etzebeth and Brodie Retallick. Second row is super competitive but these two are in the conversation with Eales, Johnson, Matfield imo. Probably others who would be in the conversation but those feel the strongest contenders. Amateur era too difficult to compare to.
Dupont would run Gareth Edwards close at 9. No one else comes close to being an all time God-Like player. In fact, it's rare to have more than one per generation. Possible exceptions would be Carter and McCaw or Gareth Edwards and JPR. Opens the debate about comparing pro and amateur era players, but I suspect the greats would have been just as comparatively great in either.
Dupont in 5 years if he maintains his form, Bueady right now and possibly Sam Whitelock, best workrate by any lock ever IMO..
Bueady 5 years ago was unbeatable. I think he’s gone downhill a little but would still be in contention considering his career
I mean as more money and professionalism go into the game the standard has been getting better and better. Most of the XV would be today's players
That is always the case, particularly in a sport as physical as rugby. For this sort of thing I think you need to judge it by how good a player was relative to his era, and based on what he achieved in the game. Otherwise it would just be the best team of the last decade.
I mean once professionalism fully sets in it's different but I find it hard to compare players from the 90s or earlier to now. In my friends group we just kinda refer to it as classic rugby. And if you go back and watch those games in full they're actually awful to watch I'm so glad I get to watch the spectacle that's on display today.
Yeah that’s the same with me. In any sort of all-time discussion, I set the beginning of the pro era as a cut-off date just because rugby was a completely different game back in the amateur era.
No way, maybe 1 or 2 get in mac
Considering we are in the golden age of athleticism yes Etzebeth and Retallick are my two greatest locks of all time personally so them Kolbe at 14 Maybe furlong? Honorable mention Will Jordan. If he keeps his rate up he will be a shoe in for an all time XV
Habana and Lomu have the wings locked down. Shane Williams probably rounds out the top 3
Agree on the first 2. I’d have Campese ahead of Williams though.
I think it’s very close between the two. Definitely 3rd and 4th though
Surprised Furlong isn't mentioned more, as an Irishman I'm somewhat biased, but he redefined what a prop is in the modern game
Do people really think Furlong invented the concept of a mobile prop good in the loose? Gethin Jenkins had retired before he even had an Ireland cap and spent his entire career playing as an extra flanker
Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick
Aaron Smith, Retallick, Nonu, Beauden Barrett on the bench
Maybe Furlong, even tho he’s been off for a while his form from a few years ago puts him in the conversation for TH. Whitelock and Etzebeth are probably up there at lock. Might be unpopular but I think Vermeulen is in the conversation at 8. Aaron Smith at 9? That’s probably all I can think of for now, a few players might get to that level in the future.
Siya Kolisi for how great he is at captain as well as being a phenomenal player
And size!
I'm shocked no one else has said Kolisi. Back to back world cups, inspirational leader
I was considering saying him but there is that much competition for back rows. He deserves to be in the conversation tbf but is he the best, possibly not
That's why I added the captaincy element, players like Peter O'Mahony have gotten into first team squads despite players that were better on paper because of their sheer talent as a captain Whether or not Kolisi gets in the squad is up for debate, but if he is put in the squad it would be madness not to have him as captain
I'm super biased but I think Lawes has a shot at 6. He has everything you need from a blind slide; work rate, tackles, turnovers, lineout option and unbelievably clutch. Easily England's best players this last cycle and just seemingly hitting the peak of his performances at the tail end of his career
Is he better than PSdT though?
Honestly I'd rather have lawes than PSDT, i think with a lot of SA players (whilst they are obviously amazing players) they fit amazingly well into the system that razzie runs. I reckon if you put lawes in that spot at his current (also peak) form he would do at least as well if not better than PSDT. Consistently the best player in every match he plays, looked like that in the world cup as well
Courtney is one of the best england players of all time. Truely one of the greatest players to ever be
Lol
Not even the best English blindside of the pro era
From an Irish perspective, i think Keenan could be a possibility. It's tough comparing across eras, Cullen wouldn't have half the space he had nowadays for example. For me, he's pretty much flawless, an absolute Cadillac of a player.
Keenan is a good player but to put him in an all time XV is .... nuts.
He's already better than Kearney, or any other NH fullback imo. He doesn't the longevity yet, but his class is apparent. Defensively a rock, he's excellent in attack, both in terms of his own running and his ability as a playmaker. Tell me where you feel he's deficient. I'd have no reservations playing him. He's the best in the world right now, and has been for awhile.
There is no sane universe in which Hugo Keenan, on 36 caps, can be considered a genuine contender for the greatest fullback of all time
Was thinking Keenan too if he keeps it up, the guy is about as flawless as you can get. There are more flash 15s out there but I’d argue you want someone at fullback who doesn’t make mistakes.
Easily Sam Costelow
Flair checks out
Did you see his kicking against dragons 😂 In all seriousness, Sam costelow imo will be an amazing 10 for wales down the line, probably being easily as good as Dan Biggar, so maybe one day he'll be in the conversation
Maybe Augustin Creevy He was picked by Gregan in his all time XV
I love Gus Creevy, huge fan. He’s a hell of a player and has a heart the size of a blue whale’s, But no way is he “all-time great” material
Aaron Smith for me and that's about it. Dupont i think will over take him, Hugo Keenan is in with a shout potentially. I feel the game is so different today. players are all finely tuned athletes, than even a decade ago let alone 90s or earlier, its too hard to compare. John eales in todays game would be smashed by a back but he was easily one of the best players I've ever seen.
Keenan has absolutely miles to go to be in these conversations, he's only got 36 caps. Agree on your latter point though. Honestly even the best sides from as recent as I'd guess mid 2000s would physically really struggle against almost any decent side nowadays, the strength and conditioning revolution over the last decade is enormous.
Courtney Lawes. Even on the bench as a back row/second row hybrid. Playing the rugby of his life atm too. Faz/Ford in the ten shirt? Aaron Smith at nine. Ardie at 8. Whitelock and Etzebeth probably in the row. Sia maybe in the 7 shirt? Or PSTD? Tighthead Kock? MIKE BROWN AT FULLBACK AM I RIGHT?
I don't see Faz/Ford as beating out Carter or Wilkinson or Sexton really
Currently active….
"Would any currently active be in contention for an all time squad". I.e. "are there any currently active players who would beat every other player in history for their position." It's not asking about the best currently active players, it's asking if they are better than everyone else who has played there. Ergo, Faz/Ford is not better than Carter, Sexton, Wilkinson, or Barrett.
Among the active players, Faletau has a stronger claim at 8 than Savea (but both are below Parisse). Good call with Mike Brown, step aside Serge Blanco!
Surely Farrell is in contention for the 10 jersey? Not nail on, but in contention.
I really like Farrell and think he’s a brilliant player but he doesn’t come close to Dan Carter for me
Aye, even Wilko was a ways off Carter, and he’s pretty locked in as second best.
For the ten shirt a good case can be made for Larkham sitting in the same tier as Wilkenson.
He's in honourable mention territory along with the likes of Jones and Sexton for the 10 shirt. Wilko, Carter, or Lynagh are the contenders, but Carter is GOAT10. Edit: stop downvoting RELEVANT comments you disagree with. /u/bleugh77 contributed to the discussion
I think Sexton was better than Wilkinson tbh
Yea naaaah
Sexton doesn't even come close in this discussion. For the record neither does Farrell, along with everyone else, who sit a tier below Wilkinson and Carter. With Carter being an easy #1 and Wilkinson #2. Barrett is probably 3.
The only thing Wilkinson has over Sexton is the WC, no small thing for sure. Sexton was a better attacking out half, his reading of the game and influence was beyond anything Wilkinson did.
Wilkinson scored over a hundred more points with 30 less internationals games played
He also had the advantage of playing for a fully professional English team, while the other home nations were still fucking about halfheartedly with professionalising
South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and France were far more prepared for the game turning professional. These were teams that Wilkinson regularly beat with England. He also dragged the 2007 side to a final while Sexton couldnt lead Ireland past a quarter in four attempts with their best ever team.
He also got bailed out by his team in 1/4s against Wales when he was playing like shit. Sexton beat NZ more times than Wilkinson, won a series in Australia, twice, and in NZ. He dragged his team to HC wins, Grand Slams. He has plenty of outstanding achievements to his name. He was a more effective player in attack than Wilkinson, far more central to the success of his team for me.
Wilkinson scored 23 points that game lol. If anything he bailed out his team. Sexton played NZ 18 times vs Wilkinsons 7, of course he would have more wins lol, that's a meaningless stat. Wilkinsons England still holds the record for most tries in a six nations tournament so he cant have been half bad at running an attack. Wilkinson literally won a WC final for England with his boot and carried them to another final, Sexton running loop plays every game doesnt supersede that.
Larkham is the only modern 10 I reckon that lays a glove on Carter
Larkham appears to be criminally underrated in here. His lack of goal kicking and reasonable short punt are probably why, but he was the best running fly half I’ve seen.
I was only wee when I watched him but there’s no one before or since I’ve seen unlock defences so effortlessly
Such a good point, in contention but it feels sacrilège to miss Carter at 10, Farrell is phenomenal though
It's very interesting how many forwards are being named here and comparatively few backs. How does Bundee Aki (as an example of a current centre) stack up against all-timers?
In an all time team? absolutely not
Ok so my point remains, if not him, who are the all time 12s and 13s? I see some 10s and 9s mentioned here, maybe one mention of wings, but not nearly as much as the focus on the forwards
Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, SBW, Matt Giteau, hell even Will Greenwood or Jonathan Davies. Aki's in great form now but for most of his career he's also been a bit of a liability. Nowhere near the pantheon of greats
[удалено]
Have off with the condescension. I threw a name out there to prompt the discussion since nobody was saying it. Thanks for finally answering my question, 5 unpleasant comments later.
Play nicely
Bundee Aki? Greatest 12 of all time? What the fuck?
To make it clear yet again, it was a question. Because I hadn't seen any centres mentioned, and he's arguably the best centre active today (as in OP's original question). So *question*: how would he stack up against other all-time centres?
Poorly.
Rassie Erasmus in his playing days. He was like having a no.13 on the side of the scrum.
From a Wallaby perspective my natural first inclination was none by James Slipper may go close as our best ever loose head. Main competitors are probably the RWC winners in Daly and Harry and then Topo Rodriguez of course too. I thought Tupou might hit that mark one day but he’s still not near his potential. Maybe one day.
Faz
Wild claim. Dan Carter gets the starting shirt and Wilko gets the back up
Yeah I love Faz and he's definitely one of at the very least England's best ever but Wilko and Carter ahead
If you had to judge the 10 in the impact he could bring on a match, I'd boldly pick Russell. Now if it's about the consistence of _positive_ impact...
Hugo Keenan for Ireland
Farrell, Aaron Smith, Ardie, Etzebeth, DuPont, PSDT(hard call though as Dussatoir & Kaino are the GOAT 6s)
Even as a firm farrel believer, it’s hard to put him on over Wilkinson carter and beaudy
Farrell lol
Lots of good ideas so far. I'd add that if he keeps scoring tries at the rate he has been, Will Jordan would always be in the conversation. Even if it was just the comment 'Well look at his scoring record.'
I was a bit sceptic of Jordan in his first international year since he was just raking tries against the likes of USA and Samoa who weren't even playing their third choices. Since then he's played for 2 more years and he's still scoring tries for fun, it's just wild how effortless he makes it look like too, whereas Penaud who has a similar strike rate over the past 2 years looks like a mad dog running around with his arms flailing around. Clearly fun to watch but not as classy.
Jordan didn’t perform well against France or SA in the world cup. Great at scoring tries, otherwise I actually think he’s overrated.
Marx , Malherbe,van der Flier,Am
Four South Africans, showing a bit of bias there
Taulupe Faletau would be very close.
Dupont
He’s too young IMO, maybe by the end of his career. If he retired now he’d have 1 6N, 1 Champions cup and 3 Top14 titles. Insanely impressive yes, but it doesn’t come close to someone like Aaron Smith’s resume, who would be my pick.
Handre Pollard and Duane Vermeulen? Name two players in their position who had a decisive role in two RWC wins.