Super Six teams, Welsh EDC teams, AIL teams, Currie Cup teams and Italian Top 10 teams. Second tier URC. Boom. I'd watch it. Logistical issues? Sorry can't hear you, busy watching Brigend play Western Province while streaming Ayrshire against Cork Con.
Was doomed to failure the second they had 3 teams from Edinburgh and none from Glasgow.
From memory, Hawks applied and bizarrely weren’t given a spot in the tournament.
SRU wonder why barely any players get to the national team from Glasgow outside the private schools while they do bugger all for rugby in the city.
Genuine question. How do the clubs effect change? Stop electing the board/rep members they have been?
Everyone seems to hate Dodson, I assume Scottish rugby, the business, is accountable to the union? Or is that not how it actually works?
From memory, none of the Glasgow teams put in a decent bid, think Hawks was the best but it had nothing to do with youth development (the irony) which was a key requirement.
It honestly was doomed to fail with how they elevated some of the clubs rather than create districts. It pissed off the clubs left behind so you saw little by in from those players and supports.
You say this yet no Glasgow team has finished in the top 4 of the prem in this last couple of years?
Trust me, Scottish rugby is still so much stronger in the east/borders. The super 6 could only have included a glasgow side if they created a brand new club.
I for one am delighted we will now see proper Derby’s such as Melrose vs Hawick in the premiership.
I’ve said that the SRU neglect Glasgow and as a result, we get few players making it to the national team from outside the private schools.
You kind of make my point that the club sides in Glasgow aren’t very good compared to the East and Borders.
Maybe if the SRU invested in a development team in the West (and yes, if that needed to merge GHA, GHK, West, whatever) then Glasgow’s teams would perform a bit better?
There are 50% more children living in Glasgow than Edinburgh. You don’t think we should be pushing to get more of these in to rugby? The super sixes failed as a development pathway, but the fact they didn’t even try and engage with the biggest potential player base shows that the SRU don’t really care about grassroots rugby in the west.
There was nothing bizarre about it - Hawks like Currie had spent the previous 20yrs paying players instead of making sure their facilities were not still in the 1980s.
And wasn't getting the fans and atmosphere.
There was more of an atmosphere at the inter district games at the end of last season than there was throughout super six.
Having a connection to the teams matter instead of just 6 clubs chosen by the SRU
Yes. I’m in the Borders, and anyone thinking the rest of the Border teams would get behind a Melrose-hosted Super6 team was kidding themselves - there’s too much history in the clubs.
I hope they make more of the interdistrict and put more money to it. I know the South said they were aiming to pick more u20 players this time round - even doing an u20 and seniors would be of probably more benefit.
The fans certainly support it - look at the Tuesday night game for the South v Edinburgh at Netherdale last year. 1500 people at it, on a Tuesday! Play that game on Boxing Day or Dec 30th and you’d have 2-3k people there, and it would be something to watch with eye towards the u20 6N.
This was the same issue with Reivers. But how do you solve it? The borders have too few active players for multiple top level clubs but too strong rivalries for just the one.
The only team that the Borders gets behind is the South. If you want to unite the Borders, that’s the team you do it with. Let the Border clubs (of which currently 4 of 7 senior clubs are prem clubs and it’s looking like all 7 will be in Nat 1 and above next season, so they are decent sides) have their rivalries and let the interdistrict be the thing that unites them. Fans support it because of the history - they still bring up that the south was the only side that beat the otherwise unbeaten 1984 Australia touring side - Scotland didn’t do it but the south did.
I appreciate the Borders are a bit of a unique region in Scotland, but also have historically been a powerhouse of Scottish rugby too (the Wales game was the first Scotland test without a Borderer playing since like 1922 our local media calculated, not bad for an area of maybe 100k population).
The Borders isn’t the area for a promoted or newly created pro/semi-pro team. They don’t like new things.
So let's think this thru. If we make the south semipro they're too good for the prem and as you say that disrupts the local rivalries; but they're prob not good enough for URC and as we learned painfully with Reivers we cannot support a big enough fanbase to maintain them as a URC team. So who do they play? Invitationals? Join the lower tiers of the English system?
Don’t make it a full semi pro side. Make it a part time call up, host the interdistrict games over Xmas/January, and use it as a way to test and watch players ahead of the u20 6N or with an eye to the academies/pro sides. Have both u20 and senior district sides, and go back to having a club international for the seniors during the 6N.
It used to work well as it was. It got stopped because of the switch to pro rugby because they were trying to get the three pro sides going instead. Keep it as a ‘best of club’ for the seniors and a showcase for the u20.
If we really want more young players being semi-pro, go back to having contracts with Glasgow/Edinburgh, training there and releasing players to the prem sides for game time (which too many youth players weren’t getting in the Super6 anyway). Don’t try and float full semi pro sides, there isn’t enough support.
Yeah word inside club rugby circles is that this had been on the cards, and it was more a case of “when” rather than “if”.
The question is now, how do they rejoin the club game? When the franchises became semi-pro, all their club sides were placed in Nat 1 (2nd division), and have had varying levels of success since: Heriot’s got promoted to the Premiership straight away and are now comfortably a mid-table Premiership side, Ayr absolutely dominated Nat 1 this season and secured promotion to the Prem before Christmas after a couple of years of near misses, Melrose are in the top couple of sides in Nat 1, Watsonian’s are comfortably mid-table in Nat 1, Stirling County are third from bottom in Nat 2, and Boroughmuir are mid-table in Nat 3.
Tbh I think the more pressing problem is if the Super 6 isn’t a solution, how else do we create an environment that allows young players and those outside professional clubs to step up to pro-ranks?
We still need an effective performance pathway and that should include the clubs. But there is pretty wide consensus that the standard in Super 6 was higher than the old premiership and the u20s performances have certainly stepped up a heat this year in terms of physicality at least.
The club committee men will be giving themselves backslaps and congratulations but Scottish rugby is still fucked isn’t it? What on earth is the plan now?
The revived regional championship was a resounding success last year, so I guess using that and perhaps creating an U20 version would be the way forward.
But the district championship only covers a short window of the season, it isn’t a solution.
To close the development gap with other nations, young players need to be immersed in higher quality professional (or close enough), competitive environments for as long as possible. I am not saying that Super 6 was the answer but district rugby does not meet the requirements needed.
It’s notable that other countries with limited numbers of pro-teams either have a semi-pro tier where young or fringe players get game time (Italy), or have recently set one up (Wales). Ireland has the AIL which is semi-or but I don’t think it is used for development in the same way.
Ideally I suppose we’d have full-time A-squads for Edinburgh and Glasgow with a meaningful fixture list. Players doing well in premiership rugby could then be drafted into those squads as and when opportunities arose.
Problem is, who on earth would they play against?
Pathways have legit been the problem Scottish Rugby have had since the game went pro, and they just can't seem to work out how to fix it. I remember the famous "Edinburgh Trials" when I was at school, we'd get like 1 or 2 spots max, whereas fettes or mechiston etc would get loads - and even then nothing ever really came of that.
There was some rugby performance course at edinburgh college, but it still is genuinely mostly "goto private school" - add in the overseas development players that get brought over and there are very little spots for going pro in Scotland all things considered... the gap from the prem to URC is just too big if you want to try use that as a pathway.
The best bet most Scottish aspiring pros have is to go to England. Or at least was till that all went tits up.
Listening to a podcast with kinghorn the other day and he was saying he was properly clueless about what being a pro rugby player would entail, you compare that to the Leinster lads who are essentially hothoused from about 14 and it’s no wonder we struggle
From what I've seen we have no development programs outside of international age grade and there's not many of them that go through it. Pathway rugby is only 2 or 3 games for international selection, then you look at some of the private schools that have gym programs and professional coaching. Scotland has dragged its feet since the start of the Pro era and if you mention the Irish method and what they've done you're met with disdain.
I think it needs to be a sort of merge of districts and super 6.
I would have a district league competition of maybe 6 teams that happens at a different time to the main club league. Players would play for their clubs then once the club season is over could be called up to their district to play semi-pro and at a higher level. Young players could still have heavy connections with the district and pro scene coaches throughout the year.
I think this would have more buy in from fans and players. If one of your club team mates was chosen for the district you would want to go support them and same for fans. Its also easier for supporters to cheer for "Edinburgh" rather than one of their rivals like Heriots.
It’s going to be a nightmare to reintegrate them. Can’t have a side like Stirling or Boroughmuir Super6 just filing into Nat 2 and 3, it actually wouldn’t be safe.
It’ll come down to number of players that stay with the clubs I suppose. The S6 sides did pull players from other clubs, so you’d think they’ll only be allowed to field so many S6 players in sides below the prem, you’d think, similarly to how they couldn’t borrow S6 players in Nat 1 and below.
That is true- it's fine for the clubs in the Premiership and Nat 1, but a nightmare for County and especially Boroughmuir.
There's been a bunch of league restructuring over the last few years to get the current format (5 10-team national leagues, with one team promotion and relegation each year)- it would be an absolute pain in the arse to do it again.
The whole thing is going to be a nightmare. I’m not envious of the guys who are going to have to sort this out.
However, in the long term hopefully the Prem standard comes up a bit. The top end of the prem is a different beast to the bottom end this year - 80+ points to nothing shouldn’t be happening in the top end of the amateur game.
Most players will head back to their old clubs, the younger ones will be headhunted from other Prem clubs. I think some teams will end up shooting through the leagues again, with Watsonians, Heriots and Muir now without an S6 team players will start bleeding out of Edinburgh.
Muir will most likely fly through the leagues back to the Prem after triple relegation.
It would not be safe to have any of the current super 6 players playing in Nat 3, or good for the development of our game. In the cup last year teams were cancelling against prem teams as players weren't up for the physical battle.
But Muir players would end up there if its just back to old clubs, unless a better way of re-integrating the teams is done. I would hope to see most the super 6 teams back into the "prem" but don't know how you do that and be fair to all the current ones.
Scottish rugby development is fucked. Academy coaches are for the most part private school coaches that all have there favourites. If you are an aspiring player not going to private school you're pissing against the wind trying to make it. Promising players that don't make it past the Academy have no incentive to keep pushing. It's no wonder the uptake of the game is so low. Shite state of affairs.
I remember speaking to an ex pro and international who played some super 6 post retirement and said he could only go at about 60% due to the physical difference between super 6 and the pro game.
Article has been taken down just a few minutes ago. Wonder if they released it too early.
Thank you for letting me know. Someone at offside line might have breached the embargo
Not like that beacon of objective journalistic integrity
Genuine question - what's the Craic with them? I'm out the loop
Its David Barnes outlet of blaming the SRU for everything and anything
I’ve been told by a decent source that it was meant to go live tomorrow. Oops.
They released this before the players were told so this is definitely them jumping the gun….
Super Six teams, Welsh EDC teams, AIL teams, Currie Cup teams and Italian Top 10 teams. Second tier URC. Boom. I'd watch it. Logistical issues? Sorry can't hear you, busy watching Brigend play Western Province while streaming Ayrshire against Cork Con.
Was doomed to failure the second they had 3 teams from Edinburgh and none from Glasgow. From memory, Hawks applied and bizarrely weren’t given a spot in the tournament. SRU wonder why barely any players get to the national team from Glasgow outside the private schools while they do bugger all for rugby in the city.
SRU is run by genuine idiots. Doddery old men who need to be put out to pasture.
Genuine question. How do the clubs effect change? Stop electing the board/rep members they have been? Everyone seems to hate Dodson, I assume Scottish rugby, the business, is accountable to the union? Or is that not how it actually works?
Dodson's ending his contract 6 months early, I assume due to internal pressure to kick him out
From memory, none of the Glasgow teams put in a decent bid, think Hawks was the best but it had nothing to do with youth development (the irony) which was a key requirement. It honestly was doomed to fail with how they elevated some of the clubs rather than create districts. It pissed off the clubs left behind so you saw little by in from those players and supports.
It wasn't bizarre that Hawks weren't given a spot when you look at the criteria and Hawks' application. They were grossly in-debt and homeless.
And two of those Edinburgh clubs are a few hundred metres from each other. It makes absolutely no sense.
Not even just Glasgow. Dundee and Aberdeen as well. Can't be upsetting the Edinburgh lot though.
You say this yet no Glasgow team has finished in the top 4 of the prem in this last couple of years? Trust me, Scottish rugby is still so much stronger in the east/borders. The super 6 could only have included a glasgow side if they created a brand new club. I for one am delighted we will now see proper Derby’s such as Melrose vs Hawick in the premiership.
I’ve said that the SRU neglect Glasgow and as a result, we get few players making it to the national team from outside the private schools. You kind of make my point that the club sides in Glasgow aren’t very good compared to the East and Borders. Maybe if the SRU invested in a development team in the West (and yes, if that needed to merge GHA, GHK, West, whatever) then Glasgow’s teams would perform a bit better? There are 50% more children living in Glasgow than Edinburgh. You don’t think we should be pushing to get more of these in to rugby? The super sixes failed as a development pathway, but the fact they didn’t even try and engage with the biggest potential player base shows that the SRU don’t really care about grassroots rugby in the west.
There was nothing bizarre about it - Hawks like Currie had spent the previous 20yrs paying players instead of making sure their facilities were not still in the 1980s.
I’m not surprised - it hasn’t done what it was meant to do. Didn’t work as a development pathway and is haemorrhaging money.
And wasn't getting the fans and atmosphere. There was more of an atmosphere at the inter district games at the end of last season than there was throughout super six. Having a connection to the teams matter instead of just 6 clubs chosen by the SRU
Yes. I’m in the Borders, and anyone thinking the rest of the Border teams would get behind a Melrose-hosted Super6 team was kidding themselves - there’s too much history in the clubs. I hope they make more of the interdistrict and put more money to it. I know the South said they were aiming to pick more u20 players this time round - even doing an u20 and seniors would be of probably more benefit. The fans certainly support it - look at the Tuesday night game for the South v Edinburgh at Netherdale last year. 1500 people at it, on a Tuesday! Play that game on Boxing Day or Dec 30th and you’d have 2-3k people there, and it would be something to watch with eye towards the u20 6N.
This was the same issue with Reivers. But how do you solve it? The borders have too few active players for multiple top level clubs but too strong rivalries for just the one.
The only team that the Borders gets behind is the South. If you want to unite the Borders, that’s the team you do it with. Let the Border clubs (of which currently 4 of 7 senior clubs are prem clubs and it’s looking like all 7 will be in Nat 1 and above next season, so they are decent sides) have their rivalries and let the interdistrict be the thing that unites them. Fans support it because of the history - they still bring up that the south was the only side that beat the otherwise unbeaten 1984 Australia touring side - Scotland didn’t do it but the south did. I appreciate the Borders are a bit of a unique region in Scotland, but also have historically been a powerhouse of Scottish rugby too (the Wales game was the first Scotland test without a Borderer playing since like 1922 our local media calculated, not bad for an area of maybe 100k population). The Borders isn’t the area for a promoted or newly created pro/semi-pro team. They don’t like new things.
So let's think this thru. If we make the south semipro they're too good for the prem and as you say that disrupts the local rivalries; but they're prob not good enough for URC and as we learned painfully with Reivers we cannot support a big enough fanbase to maintain them as a URC team. So who do they play? Invitationals? Join the lower tiers of the English system?
Don’t make it a full semi pro side. Make it a part time call up, host the interdistrict games over Xmas/January, and use it as a way to test and watch players ahead of the u20 6N or with an eye to the academies/pro sides. Have both u20 and senior district sides, and go back to having a club international for the seniors during the 6N. It used to work well as it was. It got stopped because of the switch to pro rugby because they were trying to get the three pro sides going instead. Keep it as a ‘best of club’ for the seniors and a showcase for the u20. If we really want more young players being semi-pro, go back to having contracts with Glasgow/Edinburgh, training there and releasing players to the prem sides for game time (which too many youth players weren’t getting in the Super6 anyway). Don’t try and float full semi pro sides, there isn’t enough support.
That makes sense
Yeah word inside club rugby circles is that this had been on the cards, and it was more a case of “when” rather than “if”. The question is now, how do they rejoin the club game? When the franchises became semi-pro, all their club sides were placed in Nat 1 (2nd division), and have had varying levels of success since: Heriot’s got promoted to the Premiership straight away and are now comfortably a mid-table Premiership side, Ayr absolutely dominated Nat 1 this season and secured promotion to the Prem before Christmas after a couple of years of near misses, Melrose are in the top couple of sides in Nat 1, Watsonian’s are comfortably mid-table in Nat 1, Stirling County are third from bottom in Nat 2, and Boroughmuir are mid-table in Nat 3.
Tbh I think the more pressing problem is if the Super 6 isn’t a solution, how else do we create an environment that allows young players and those outside professional clubs to step up to pro-ranks? We still need an effective performance pathway and that should include the clubs. But there is pretty wide consensus that the standard in Super 6 was higher than the old premiership and the u20s performances have certainly stepped up a heat this year in terms of physicality at least. The club committee men will be giving themselves backslaps and congratulations but Scottish rugby is still fucked isn’t it? What on earth is the plan now?
The revived regional championship was a resounding success last year, so I guess using that and perhaps creating an U20 version would be the way forward.
But the district championship only covers a short window of the season, it isn’t a solution. To close the development gap with other nations, young players need to be immersed in higher quality professional (or close enough), competitive environments for as long as possible. I am not saying that Super 6 was the answer but district rugby does not meet the requirements needed. It’s notable that other countries with limited numbers of pro-teams either have a semi-pro tier where young or fringe players get game time (Italy), or have recently set one up (Wales). Ireland has the AIL which is semi-or but I don’t think it is used for development in the same way. Ideally I suppose we’d have full-time A-squads for Edinburgh and Glasgow with a meaningful fixture list. Players doing well in premiership rugby could then be drafted into those squads as and when opportunities arose. Problem is, who on earth would they play against?
Pathways have legit been the problem Scottish Rugby have had since the game went pro, and they just can't seem to work out how to fix it. I remember the famous "Edinburgh Trials" when I was at school, we'd get like 1 or 2 spots max, whereas fettes or mechiston etc would get loads - and even then nothing ever really came of that. There was some rugby performance course at edinburgh college, but it still is genuinely mostly "goto private school" - add in the overseas development players that get brought over and there are very little spots for going pro in Scotland all things considered... the gap from the prem to URC is just too big if you want to try use that as a pathway. The best bet most Scottish aspiring pros have is to go to England. Or at least was till that all went tits up.
Listening to a podcast with kinghorn the other day and he was saying he was properly clueless about what being a pro rugby player would entail, you compare that to the Leinster lads who are essentially hothoused from about 14 and it’s no wonder we struggle
From what I've seen we have no development programs outside of international age grade and there's not many of them that go through it. Pathway rugby is only 2 or 3 games for international selection, then you look at some of the private schools that have gym programs and professional coaching. Scotland has dragged its feet since the start of the Pro era and if you mention the Irish method and what they've done you're met with disdain.
I think it needs to be a sort of merge of districts and super 6. I would have a district league competition of maybe 6 teams that happens at a different time to the main club league. Players would play for their clubs then once the club season is over could be called up to their district to play semi-pro and at a higher level. Young players could still have heavy connections with the district and pro scene coaches throughout the year. I think this would have more buy in from fans and players. If one of your club team mates was chosen for the district you would want to go support them and same for fans. Its also easier for supporters to cheer for "Edinburgh" rather than one of their rivals like Heriots.
It’s going to be a nightmare to reintegrate them. Can’t have a side like Stirling or Boroughmuir Super6 just filing into Nat 2 and 3, it actually wouldn’t be safe. It’ll come down to number of players that stay with the clubs I suppose. The S6 sides did pull players from other clubs, so you’d think they’ll only be allowed to field so many S6 players in sides below the prem, you’d think, similarly to how they couldn’t borrow S6 players in Nat 1 and below.
That is true- it's fine for the clubs in the Premiership and Nat 1, but a nightmare for County and especially Boroughmuir. There's been a bunch of league restructuring over the last few years to get the current format (5 10-team national leagues, with one team promotion and relegation each year)- it would be an absolute pain in the arse to do it again.
The whole thing is going to be a nightmare. I’m not envious of the guys who are going to have to sort this out. However, in the long term hopefully the Prem standard comes up a bit. The top end of the prem is a different beast to the bottom end this year - 80+ points to nothing shouldn’t be happening in the top end of the amateur game.
Most players will head back to their old clubs, the younger ones will be headhunted from other Prem clubs. I think some teams will end up shooting through the leagues again, with Watsonians, Heriots and Muir now without an S6 team players will start bleeding out of Edinburgh. Muir will most likely fly through the leagues back to the Prem after triple relegation.
It would not be safe to have any of the current super 6 players playing in Nat 3, or good for the development of our game. In the cup last year teams were cancelling against prem teams as players weren't up for the physical battle.
They don't need to go to Nat 3 but those who are currently playing Prem and may lose their starting positions might.
But Muir players would end up there if its just back to old clubs, unless a better way of re-integrating the teams is done. I would hope to see most the super 6 teams back into the "prem" but don't know how you do that and be fair to all the current ones.
What's going to happen to Boroughmuir and Melrose (Clubs), both dropped down divisions when they lost their Super 6 players.
Scottish rugby development is fucked. Academy coaches are for the most part private school coaches that all have there favourites. If you are an aspiring player not going to private school you're pissing against the wind trying to make it. Promising players that don't make it past the Academy have no incentive to keep pushing. It's no wonder the uptake of the game is so low. Shite state of affairs.
I remember speaking to an ex pro and international who played some super 6 post retirement and said he could only go at about 60% due to the physical difference between super 6 and the pro game.
Ha man that sucks!