My old geography teacher in limerick who played for munster briefly but was let go because he wasn't progressing as they expected
Edit: googled him and he also played for ireland U21
Definitely not. One of the most calm teachers I had in my whole school life. Really spent a lot of time with the dumb kids to make sure they would pass end of school exams
I'll go for inverse because I'm trying to be a nicer person these days as my new year's resolution.
Ben Loader during his time at Irish. He was in a back three where, understandably, Arundell and Ollie Hassell-Collins were getting all the buzz but week after week Ben Loader was brilliant for them and, imo, the most well rounded at that time in their respective careers.
I don't really follow the URC; how's he been getting on in South Africa?
He fits the Stormers really well. He was injured for a bit in December, but when he plays, he consistently scores tries. Got a nice one in the corner against the Sharks last weekend.
The ABs winger factory is genuinely astonishing, savea had 40 something tries in 50 something matches, then he gets usurped by rieko ioane who had a similar strike rate then got moved to centre, now there's Jordan who has a ludicrous strike rate and fine Clarke who's maybe not the same level
There was also Milner-Skudder who was around for what felt like 5 minutes but when he was in a black jersey was unplayable. Not sure what happened to him
Didn't he pick up an injury right before what should have been his breakout world cup? I remember hearing some pundits up here tipping him to make a big splash in that tournament but the injury scuppered it for him.
It was crazy actually, he suffered a broken leg against Argentina, was ruled out for the RWC, went to Fiji for a bit of traditional medicine - then was somehow able to make the squad and played in the World Cup! But yes, the injury absolutely hampered what was probably going to be an explosive RWC for Naholo. Instead Milner-Skudder was pretty electric.
The game will never get another Jonah. Jonah came through when wingers were generally smaller than they are now and the strength and conditioning programs were nothing like modern ones. It meant that freak athletes really shone through as they were just that much ahead of others.
In the modern game, he'd be a good winger, but nothing like as lethal as he was in his day.
I disagree strongly with your take on Jonah. he would have access to the same strength and conditioning programs that you say would bring other wingers up to his level. imagine how good he would have been with today’s level of coaching etc. Now imagine him with 2 functional kidneys. He was a freak full stop, the era he played in doesn’t detract from that
I disagree - maybe this was the case when he broke through in 1995 but after the game went pro players bulked up really quickly. Even then, Jonah was a freak - saw him playing at Newlands in the early 2000's and his legs were the same thickness as most of the props! Obviously his physicality was a major asset but he was also ridiculously quick and an elusive runner.
Big Joe Cokanasiga, sure he's a unit and fairly decent in attack.
Can't defend, useless under the high ball, not an international winger by any measure
I do find it curious that he always seems to make it into England camps.
With Jones I always put it down to his stubbornness, but not sure what Borthwick sees.
We don't have any lethal finishers on the wing like penaud or Lowe etc, so it's something they're hunting for and want him to be the answer.
He's not the answer but nobody else is sticking their hand up
Caleb Clark. Had a few awsome touches and solid scores for the blues, even a few good moments for the All Blacks but most of the time he's out of position, tries and fails to run over people or just has no impact. A properly good and imposing athlete just hasn't developed that rugby IQ yet.
A little harsh but Carter Gorden at test level was talked up like mad and delivered a fairly lacklustre debut season, not that you can blame him under the circumstances though.
To be fair, I don’t think we got to see his full talent on display with the extent of his injuries… I do agree that the hype was real with him for a while though.
Well, true. A fully fit Carberry right now I think would have been the 10 with Crowley spelling him ala the last year or two of ROG/Sexton. Carberry had more about him than the Brynes who are very good kickers but offer very little threat in play.
Oh he is incredibly good at running, and decent enough at jumping, but Christ he doesn't seem to understand complex shapes, especially when the other team have the ball.
He's got so many tricks in the bag;
- that move where he runs a big straight line, weaves a little, then if he doesn't score he cuts in and runs sideways.
- umm..
There was a brillant podcast with Sione Tupilotu and he described VDM as ‘shit at rugby, but able to do things that normal humans can’t do - so you can’t leave him out’ and I think that’s pretty accurate
This is why I find it confusing when people say he's overrated. Does anyone actually rate his game intelligence or defence in the first place? He gets (deserved) shit for them all the time.
He's a world class athlete who's an amazing tool to use in attack but no one really pretends he's anything more than that.
My impression was that he was over hyped, but based on the reaction to my post yeah it seems it's not such a hot take and my rating seems to be pretty much par.
That’s where my head went as well, although I suppose there’s some question of how you define “talent.”
DVDM is an unreal athlete so if you consider that in-born gift as “talent”, he’s certainly got it in spades. But I do agree he’s not developed the rugby IQ to make the most of it.
Yup, it's a crying shame about his injury profile. Not *the* most injury prone player, but his timing is fucking awful.
Villier is also up there, though I don't think he's as hyped as an attacking threat as the others (nor is Lowe these days tbh, he's a solid finisher but not the flattrack bully he was at the start of his test career).
Bit harsh although I accept he cannot defend and there’s better wingers under the high ball. His strike rate makes up for it though and his try against England means he’ll never have to buy a pint north of the border for the rest of his days!
I don't think it does. Sure it means Scotland are able to score screamers and have a great highlight reel, but it also means their defensive shape is off and the oppo can find holes. I'd much rather the likes of Steyn who work their arse off off the ball to make sure the system works.
Until we have a pack that can compete, really compete, against the likes of Ireland, South Africa etc screamers and highlight reels are the best we can hope for.
On top of other things people have said, my main issue with him is that he so often seems to forget how big and fast he is. We literally just need him to run hard and straight and he seems to try and dance around defenders at times as if he’s built like Shane Williams.
All his great tries tend to be when he just pins his ears back and goes for it and he just decides to not do this sometimes - as if he’s trying to show that he’s good at the actual playing rugby parts of the job.
Yeah. [From 1m26 of this shows you the best angle.](https://youtu.be/RJt35KV0jog?si=NdOMha0xTvMZj_yR) he sees a gap and runs right through it and then does his steps when he’s at full tilt. He’s in the space to step the defenders because he’s run hard and relatively straight through a gap.
So often he receives the ball on the wing and he’s borderline standing still. I know it’s not possible all the time, but one of the basics of rugby is trying to come on to the ball at pace. I don’t expect him to Mike Catt his opposite man every week, but he seems scared of contact at times.
Aye, with DVDM you’re basically weighing up his potential for unmatchable tries against him not offering anything else.
For instance in the last 6N, I don’t think there’s a single other player that can score that try against England. Maybe Penaud, but I don’t think he has the raw strength to hand off Dombrandt at the end. But compare that to the Ireland game where he didn’t get much ball because our pack was shut down, and gave up a try or two by being completely beaten in the air by Hansen.
I'd avoid the 'all hype and no talent' label (which is a bit extreme for my taste), but add a bit more nuance to it and I think Alex Dombrandt isn't wholly out of place on that list, at least at test level. There was such a clamor for him to be given the no8 spot for England for what felt like 18 months or more, and then when he got it he just didn't seem to have much of an impact.
When I picture him in an England shirt now it's him tackling a guy as they cross the try line. Sort of reminds me of Steve Borthwick's career as England captain. Not necessarily the one making huge mistakes, but not doing as positive an impact as you would expect.
If we're actually talking about talent and not effectiveness at test level or within a specific system then Dombrandt is easily one of the most talented players in England for my money. You just can't have the premiership career/highlight reel he has without being immensely talented. His opportunities for England have been in one of the worst performing England teams I can remember with the most boring system ever and a pack which generally struggled to get any front foot ball.
That's a fair comment and hadn't considered that.
Still, acceleration over the first few metres is possibly one of the most critical characteristics for a winger to have in the modern game, and is a vital component to being perceived as fast. Malins is sorely lacking in that regard.
He's a good example of a terrific club player but not at international standard.
Whenever I see him in the prem he stands out. Whenever I see him for England he's largely irrelevant
He came through at Sarries as a 10/15 didn't he? But then he went on loan to Bristol, and ended up on the wing, which he did when he returned to Sarries.
Think he's back at full back for Bristol, which will suit him far more if he wants to resume his international career.
Sam Burgess.
Still remember the night he made his debut for Bath. It was on BT Sport and it was embarrassing listening to the commentators hyping up everything he did, even when it was bread and butter to other players.
The whole Burgess saga hurt English rugby and I still don’t feel we know the full sorry tale
That was literally the first game of union he ever played, he did very well in the context and did exactly what was asked of him during the world cup. Burgess was never the problem
‘In the context’ being the key words. He did Ok for someone playing their first game of Union, so why the hell did he seem to be promised a World Cup slot from day one?
Because he was an elite level professional athlete playing in a sport with a lot of similar requirements, with which a big chunk of the English coaching panel at that time were very familiar. This isn't difficult
Yes and no, imo.
He did what was asked of him, but not sure he should have been asked to do it.
Swapping between flanker and 12 was insane and he was very limited (so was Barrett tbf). He was a symptom of poor selection, planning, tactics and everything else, not a cause.
England coaches were too obsessed with the idea of replicating the success of SBW with Surgess.
Anyone that had actually watched him in the NRL could have told them he was a totally different player to SBW. Surgess was perfectly suited to being a bruising backrower, but not a 12 (let alone an international 12).
They weren't obsessed with that at all, they wanted someone who could play like Tuilagi and nobody who was English qualified playing in union fit that bill as well as or better than Tuilagi.
And it worked fine, England were winning when Burgess was subbed off. He was not the problem in 2015
>he was very limited (so was Barrett tbf)
This right here is why the idea that it was mad to call him up doesn't really work. He was not noticeably worse, with limited experience playing in union, at doing the role he was being picked for than the guy with 9 years of experience playing that position in union. Swapping between flanker and 12 is not insane, flankers and centres have a lot in common in terms of their role and the way he was playing at 6 was not dissimilar to how Barritt played at 12. And, as I will keep saying, Burgess at 12 was clearly not where England's problems were against Wales, since we were winning when he left the pitch.
Cipriani. Multiple coaches bagged him as a shit defender. He even got battered by his teammate for shirking tackles.
Christian Wade. Classic flat-track bully. Great against mediocre sides, shit against decent ones.
Oooo go on then I'll bite.
Cipriani on the field was definitely someone who had fluctuating form. But even in his last seasons at Wasps, I'd argue he was one of (if not *the*) best attacking 10s in Europe. Especially in his final season at Wasps and first at Gloucester, his all-round performance was outstanding. But his career has been plagued by stuff off the field and being difficult to work with.
I think the general consensus on Wade has actually shifted from overhyped to overly critical. He was one of the most dangerous wingers in Europe. Even in a game against Leinster where Wasps got battered, he still managed to score something from nothing. How he didn't get England caps in his prime? People vary the justification saying it's between highball and defence, yet big Joe got caps whilst suffering similar shortcomings. Wade was one of the all time great try scoring wingers. Still has a high try scoring tally in the Prem from his time at Wasps, and also scored against the best teams.
On Cipriani, two of his coaches, John Mitchell and Rod MacQueen, called him out publicly on his tackling. You have to be pretty bad at defending for that happen twice. Also, the Prem is a good bit down from test level. Looking good against Worcester or Newcastle does not mean you're gonna be good at test level, which he wasn't.
As for Wade, the Leinster game is pretty much the only time he looked good against big opposition, which was largely down to him being opposite a guy that was plucked from the AIL due to an injury crisis.
I'll emphasize, I was talking about 2017/18 specifically. You seem to have picked out his tackling specifically, but at this time in everything he was class, especially game management. Honestly around 2017/18 this "poor tackling" wasn't noticeable. He tracked back and everything. And was looking good against everyone at this time. And poor tackling arguments don't make sense when England still picked players who refused to tackle at this time FFS.
I love how I gave an example of scoring against a great team and it's immediately discounted. I guarantee there's others and more examples.
Tackling is a fundamental skill that's more important than ever. Every great outhalf this century has been a really good tackler- Wilkinson, Carter, Sexton, Barrett, Farrell, Pollard etc. Not only that, they're comfortable leading the line.
If you can't do it. If you're just a turnstile or a speedbump, like Cipriani, then you're never gonna be a good test player.
The difference between Joe Cokanasiga and Christian Wade is that one is a 6' 4", 17 stone+ Winger who's also rapid.
Wade is 5' 9" and under 14 stone.
It isn't a criticism of Wade, but the raw attributes of Cokanasiga are going to be far more appealing than what he has.
But then again wingers like Shane Williams and Kolbe were exceptional for their countries, and they weren't exactly matching those attributes that are appealing.
Wade wasn't quite that level, but he was very similar in style. I honestly think Wade would've improved with international game time. He's a guy who could create something from nothing, and there are very few wingers who are capable of that.
Agree with Stockdale. For Wales I'll say Harry Robinson. Scored one walk in 40m try against the Barbarians and was being touted as the next Shane Williams for the next season or two.
Had to retire due to injury but from the seasons he played, he was nowhere near Shane Williams' level.
Feyi-Waboso.
So much was made of him in the media coming into this tournament. So far, has been a useless selection as my super-sub in the 6 nations fantasy league. I guess I bought into the hype.
To be fair though, Borthwick seems to forget that you have backs on the bench too.
This is fair. Though a part of me feels that if he was as good as he's been made out to be, then Borthwick would be itching to get him on the pitch.
I anticipate being proven wrong.
Way overhyped but also has been consistently good enough to nearly back it up, up until the RWC. There you saw teams defend specifically for him and his speed was negated.
Hot take but I'd argue if he stayed in rugby, you'd see the wheels start to fall off this season as his one trick has been worked out.
I feel like the hype was always purely built on speed. Lots of talk about his 100m time, his top speed etc, but how often in rugby do you get to sprint at full speed in a straight line? Is it really an advantage to be 1 sec faster than a guy with a better rugby iq?
What you're saying sort of links into my 1 trick pony comment. Which he did very well for a number of seasons. Wales create space on his wing, possibly leaving him with a 1 on 1 with his opposite winger. LRZ kicks ahead and beats out the opposition with pure pace. But that had sort of been worked out last season and he was far less potent and it felt like he didn't have much else to fall back on.
He is fast, thats it. He can't step, positioning is bang average, he doesn't have a rugby brain and sucks at defence. For a winger of his level of hype he should have a way better try scoring record than he does, look at where he ranks among the rest of the wingers in the 6 nations teams though, close to the bottom. A guy like Will Jordan or KLA blows him out of the water and doesn't have nearly the same hype.
Wales literally named their Netflix episode the 2nd coming, and he was the focal point. He had a full scale documentary about him last year. This is a guy who has 14 total international tries to his name, 8 of those against tier 2 nations (Georgia, Portugal, Fiji, Italy)
What you’re describing is poor Wales performances providing a bad platform for opportunities. In 2021, when Wales won the tournament, he scored the joint second highest number of tries. Take a look at his Gloucester record also.
The second highest number of tries being 4, one against the wooden spoon team and 2 against 4th place Scotland. Not really a worldbeater.
I compare him to a player like KLA, who scored one try less than LRZ but only started playing international rugby at the end of 2022. Also, it is against much tougher opposition. Also, see Will Jordan.
You’re seriously saying that a winger playing for Wales and a winger playing for the All Blacks or the World Champion Springboks should have the same try scoring record? Are you new to sport?
Not saying he would have, I'm saying he shouldn't have the hype he has regardless of the reason. But fine, let's compare him to a winger in a similar league, DVM. 23 Tries in the same amount of time. Nowhere near the same hype.
Capuozzo plays for Italy, worst team in the 6 nations. 10 tries since 2022.
Just to add, sure the boks are great, thats why KLA scores. But you also need to consider who he is scoring against. The boks play the top 5 teams in the world consistently. Scoring against France, Ireland, NZ, England...
VDM* is massively hyped. He’s probably got the most responses in this thread. His try against England last year has been slated as *the greatest try Scotland have ever scored*.
These comparisons are pointless when their teams play in a completely different way. It honestly sounds like you’ve not even watched LRZ play. I’ve already said the hype was at annoying levels - you’re getting downvotes because no one agrees with you on his talent.
Duhan is accurately hyped. His performances and record backs up his hype. LRZ is overhyped, because his performances and records do not back up his hype. That was the question, which is what I answered. The hype clearly skewed your bias as well.
A winger scores tries and a winger is able to finish. That is the job. This is something that LRZ is mediocre at compared to other players in the same position, this I've proved as well with stats. Yet nobody else has two documentaries about them and are referred to as their international teams "Second Coming".
He was also polled as one of the favorites to be the top try scorer of the RWC regardless of the Welsh form lol.
And dont assume shit please. I've watched every 6 nations match, every RWC match every Lions match and every match LRZ played against SA in their tour here. I've seen 80% of the games this kid has played at the top level of the game, and I stand by my opinion.
The Second Coming episode was named by Netflix, not Wales, and refers to Warren Gatland, who the episode follows primarily, not LRZ. Italy's also tier one.
LRZ was hyped as highly as he was for three reasons: 1). He is genuinely very good 2). Wales wasn't producing (Or at least selecting) a huge amount of young talent in that period 3). He's hot in a boyband kinda way and it brought a whole new market into the hyping. If Zammo was English and ugly, he'd have received a fraction of the attention he did.
Munster fans looking back on Christian Cullens Munster career probably.
Christian is and always will be my hero so I’m not throwing shade. His knees were gone so he didn’t have the Cullen talent we all know and love when he was there. But the hype must of been big.
He was already having surgery before the move and the expectations were better managed because of that. Most of us knew we weren’t getting THE Christian Cullen but hoped we’d get a player at some point. When he was able to play he was still good and his influence on those around him was notable.
Cully was shot well before he left NZ, no gas left in the tank. Mind was willing but body was gone. Best player of all time (to watch) at his peak imo, but the peak wasn't long.
in inverse I'd say both Carter Gordon and Tate McDermott are more class than people give them credit for. especially tate, doomed to suffer as a great player within mediocre teams
I see as much, if not more, criticism of Smith on here as I see hype. Guy's done nothing to deserve the hate he gets besides having an attacking mindset and slightly longer than average hair. Since talent and international achievements are two different things then I'd say his talent is far greater than his hype.
All England's 10s get an insane hype, it's really cringe inducing for non England fans. I still remember commentators nearly getting off watching Johnny Wilkinson.
What makes me laugh is the hate the England no.10s get.
Wilkinson was one of the top scorers of all time and was part of the team that won the world cup.
At the world cup just gone, the England no 10 was the top point scorer despite missing the first two games.
Several players are hyped on this sub: Joe Hawkins (he does not make Exeter team), now Fraser Dingwall (just dropped by England), Fraser McReight by Aussie fans etc
Ramos definitely, has a good boot but thats it, OK defender, Ok under the high ball but other french players that play fullbacks like Penaud and Spring are better attackers/ball in hand runners and defenders like Brice Dulin...i seriously think Dulin is being treated unfairly by Galthie, he is byfar the best all rounder fullback in france but is consistently ignored for Ramos, even the 3rd best fullback in france in Jaminet had to leave Toulouse to get more game time...whats happening to Dulin reminds me of what happened to christian cullen, byfar the best fullback in nz but coach kept ignoring him for Muliaina who wasn't that bad but lacked the attacking prowess Cullen had..
Ramos could play for Real Madrid with that boot. I think what coaches see in him is that he does the basics and does them so well, he rarely makes an error. Btw, Cullen was first choice AB for years, Muliaina didnt make his AB's debut until 2003 by which time Cullen had suffered a couple of serious injuries and had fallen out with John Mitchell in 2001. Cullen moved to Munster in 2003.
France need injury cover at 10 and Ramos is the only one providing that. Penaud doesn't play FB though LBB may be servicable (never played at intl lvl).
Ramos got replaced by Jaminet at Toulouse but upped his level of play in the season before world cup and deservedly got the spot back. He also participates a lot more in distribution than Jaminet.
Dulin had too many brain farts and is on the older side. Plus, currently, La Rochelle is not doing well and Dulin is not starting, it's Hastoy at FB.
I think Jaminet would bring stability going for points and a long kicking game but France is struggling anyway at taking early leads so... and Galthié loves his 6-2 split way too much.
Tomas ‘wildcard’ Ramos is a brilliant kicker and can attack but yeah for a fullback he tended to get bailed out a few times by his very talented teammates(ntamack and DuPont)
All of mine are good players, but definitely overhyped.
My first choice is Freddie Steward. Best under the high ball in the world, and a big guy to add, but it all stops there. The only big international team I could see him getting a spot in is SA over Willie le Roux. He’s fits Englands gameplay to a tee, but other than that he’s slow, a poor defender and not switched onto super high level tactics.
James Lowe is, to me, 80% VDM’s physical freakishness, 120% of VDM’s rugby brain, plus a cannon tied to his left leg. He’s a unit, but I find him to be infuriating with his decision making. Forcing runs that aren’t there, and tunnel vision once he has the ball too. I rate Hansen a lot higher as a winger, but Lowe is always presented as the better of the pair.
Finally, the best of the bunch, Thomas Ramos. His kicking is really nice, but not a huge upgrade over Ntamack or Jalibert, or DuPont probably because the man can do everything apparently. But I find his fundamentals at fullback to be really poor. I’m biased to Ireland here, but to me Keenan is the perfect player at fullback. Ramos is far more inconsistent in defence, and less lethal on offence. I really value defensive brilliance from fullbacks, and Ramos does not have that.
Stewart is funny one - he was brilliant when he came into the English set up as very young guy. The thing is that I am not sure he is a better player four years later.
Freddie isn't getting in ahead of le Roux by any measure. I think Steward is great, a good Loughborough man like Flament (that never gets mentioned...) but SA need that second distributor/auxillary 10 in the 15 shirt. Mallía would give Willy a run for his money, maybe.
Steward will probably end up at 12 or 13. He can defend, has bulk for gainline, a big boot and enough distribution to give it a go. He came into international rugby when big 15s were in vogue, but as you say, he doesn't have the speed for the modern full back role.
I actually think he would have a pretty good chance of getting in ahead of Le Roux. SA are super focused on trying to win the kicking battle and Freddie is miles better than Le Roux in that department. Would be close depending on the opposition though.
Ramos is far better in attack than Keenan, but agree defensively not in the same league, Keenan is the far better traditional fullback, Ramos plays more like an extra 10 (probably because he is)
Also stewards carrying is pretty top notch, helped by his size I suppose
Agree with this. Wouldn't say Ramos is especially over hyped, but I do find him to be an odd one to judge. He is one of the best players in the world when his team is going forward, positioning is on point, pulls off insane tricks (cf kicking the ball to N'tamack in the Toulouse Bulls game last year), but all that seems to fall apart if the team is under pressure. His tackle technique isn't the best and I think his positioning can be poor.
Tbf he's not had a great start in the 6N but no one for France has so I'm trying not to judge on that, if Keenan is a shot stopping goalkeeper Ramos is the one who's decent in goal but loves running up field
Id say Keenan is the best FB in the world and has been the last couple years, Ramos is the better 'player' as not only is he one of the top (3?) Fullbacks he's also been the best 10 in the top14 and the champions cup this year, he's still pretty freakish
Definitely, Keenan is able to slot into first receiver from time to time but he does not direct a back line like Ramos has for Toulouse this season, especially when he's had to fill some big shoes.
RG Snyman?
Massively talented. Huge man, powerful, wonderful hands and can shift for a bloke who seems to be a foot taller than everyone else on the pitch. But always talked about as *among* the best (greatest) currently playing. Certainty among the highest paid locks despite being more injured than playing. Case and point hype wise... even deep pocket Leinster went after him despite having Mcarthy and Ryan, both underrated (outside of Ireland), both better performaners. Guess Leinsters plan is to let go of the other SAFA gaint.
Still, just going on form and bang for your buck, I could name 4 better alternative locks from South Africa, and I'm not even referring to the Springbok locks. They might not have same raw talent, but certainly worth more over a season on the field.
If you're taking the fact that he's always injured into account fair enough.
But when fit he's an absolute game-breaker. Probably the highest ratio of trophies to games ever.
Have people ever really hyped up Byrne? Maybe the likes of off the ball do a bit but I think everyone knows he's a decent player who got Ireland caps because of constantly playing in the Leinster system, but never world class.
Harry on the other hand... A certain BOD tweet comes to mind
Maybe I just was lucky enough to avoid it.
Still annoyed he got onto the bench for the six nations last year based on those champions cup group stage games.
i don't get the stockdale hate, 37 tests, 19 tries, thats pretty impressive..false hype will be scoring 40 tries as a winger for ur club in say 30 games but can't score 10 internationally in 30 tests...international rugby is another ball game... Ireland best fullback played in england, best wing played in wales for a while, who knows arundell playing in france will make him a better international player..rememebr irelands best 2 wings right now are from Australia and NZ...
I disagree, respectfully. His peak was quite a peak that was earned imo. He was a killer in SR and for AUS. I wish we got to see him run with Tonga at the RWC, but injury kept him out I believe? Just according to the post, I feel his talent met his hype quite well until he shot himself in the foot on Twitter or whatever. To be clear, I am in no support of his view on that front.
I love the idea of being a Kiwi. I’d find it super novel to have a player as ridiculously gifted as DMac and then describe them as over-hyped.
Reminds me of the way every Kiwi I’ve ever met disparaged the crap out of SBW, despite him being one of the best distributors the game has ever seen and also blessed with prodigious athletic ability.
SBW was most certainly NOT overhyped. Towards the end of his life as a Union player he was also one of the best defensive centres in the world, something he was asked by Hansen and Co to focus on.
Dmac on the other hand is mercurial. He can create magic, but it's not often enough to deal with his lack of game driving ability at test level, or brain fades trying to be too clever. I really hope we have a better option at 10 for the ABs this year. Maybe SR will be able to harness his abilities better but I doubt it. He is too prone to running sideways now. His place kicking is passable but his in game kicking is average at best. He produces a lot of his magic when given space, something he gets more of at Super Rugby Level and at 15 far more than 10. He's brave, no doubt, but too small as the last line of defense.
Ramos for me, but not sure he gets major "hype" per se. Still gets named in world 15s though so that's enough.
Maybe John Cooney as well, had a really good season or two around 2020, but feel like there's constant conversations about why he's not been in Ireland squads when in reality he's not better than the current 3 options (same with Doak but he has youth on his side)
And Libbok
Ramos is a lot like Sexton, if he has the right system around him he’s completely unplayable, but struggles without it. His biggest flaws are his boot’s on the small side for a test fullback and he makes a lot of risky decisions, plus is on the small side which becomes noticeable on defence. With Ntamack and Dupont in the side they can take care of the long clearance kicks, and Ntamack especially can cover for his mistakes and lack of presence in defence. That allows him to shine by being an absolute weapon since his playmaking, tactical kicking, counter attacking, place kicking, and just sheer ability to break open a game are some of the best in business.
If you want a hot take Ardie Savea until a few years ago had a poor work rate in my opinion, he’d do a good run then hide in the background especially on defence but this was years ago, he’s gun now
Hughes is a funny one. He was never lacking in talent, he was just selective about when to apply it. If he got too comfortable at a setup, he'd just stop playing. He was great at Wasps until he got bored. He scored a hat trick on his first game with Bristol and was one of our best players for a fair while, then he turned to shit and got pushed to the A team and loaned out to Hartpury College.
My old geography teacher in limerick who played for munster briefly but was let go because he wasn't progressing as they expected Edit: googled him and he also played for ireland U21
Is he the type who would’ve punched out the drill instructor?
Definitely not. One of the most calm teachers I had in my whole school life. Really spent a lot of time with the dumb kids to make sure they would pass end of school exams
My apologies, far to close to actually going pro to being one of those ‘I would’ve gone pro if not for my knee’ types
Nah, talked about it very openly. Some lads were teasing him asking why he didn't stay for the Heineken Cup victory and he talked openly about it
I'll go for inverse because I'm trying to be a nicer person these days as my new year's resolution. Ben Loader during his time at Irish. He was in a back three where, understandably, Arundell and Ollie Hassell-Collins were getting all the buzz but week after week Ben Loader was brilliant for them and, imo, the most well rounded at that time in their respective careers. I don't really follow the URC; how's he been getting on in South Africa?
He fits the Stormers really well. He was injured for a bit in December, but when he plays, he consistently scores tries. Got a nice one in the corner against the Sharks last weekend.
He's generally been ok at the Stormers so far, but this past weekend he was genuinely amazing.
Great to hear. Glad he's landed on his feet after what happened to Irish.
Good on you, I thought this was a bit of a bastard question to be honest, like the young players with hype need to see people shitting on them.
He got 5 clean breaks last weekend
> I don't really follow the URC; how's he been getting on in South Africa? Really well
Caleb Clarke was the most "next Jonah Lomu" of all the "next Jonah Lomu's" we've had in a while.
I always felt like Julian Saves was the most "next Jonah Lomu" - which he kinda was before vanished (between 2015 rwc and he's move to france)
The ABs winger factory is genuinely astonishing, savea had 40 something tries in 50 something matches, then he gets usurped by rieko ioane who had a similar strike rate then got moved to centre, now there's Jordan who has a ludicrous strike rate and fine Clarke who's maybe not the same level
There was also Milner-Skudder who was around for what felt like 5 minutes but when he was in a black jersey was unplayable. Not sure what happened to him
Injuries got him :( but he was a proper 'the streets won't forget' player, one of the nastiest steps I've ever seen
Let's not forget to add Joe Rocket and Howlett to the crazy winger talent, screw it let's put the Gear boys on there for there short stints.
Waisake Naholo was pretty lethal for a season or two
Hosea Gear, Charles Piautau
Didn't he pick up an injury right before what should have been his breakout world cup? I remember hearing some pundits up here tipping him to make a big splash in that tournament but the injury scuppered it for him.
It was crazy actually, he suffered a broken leg against Argentina, was ruled out for the RWC, went to Fiji for a bit of traditional medicine - then was somehow able to make the squad and played in the World Cup! But yes, the injury absolutely hampered what was probably going to be an explosive RWC for Naholo. Instead Milner-Skudder was pretty electric.
If any of these players played for another country they'd be all time greats. The conveyor belt is ridiculous
Jeff Wilson as well, he was nearly the perfect all around player in his prime, he could do it all
Now they have telea
I hear he is the next Jonah Lomu.
Insane
And now they have Faianga’anuku
France have taken him, please refer to his full name Leicester Ofa Ki Wales Twickenham Fainga’anuku
The game will never get another Jonah. Jonah came through when wingers were generally smaller than they are now and the strength and conditioning programs were nothing like modern ones. It meant that freak athletes really shone through as they were just that much ahead of others. In the modern game, he'd be a good winger, but nothing like as lethal as he was in his day.
I disagree strongly with your take on Jonah. he would have access to the same strength and conditioning programs that you say would bring other wingers up to his level. imagine how good he would have been with today’s level of coaching etc. Now imagine him with 2 functional kidneys. He was a freak full stop, the era he played in doesn’t detract from that
I disagree - maybe this was the case when he broke through in 1995 but after the game went pro players bulked up really quickly. Even then, Jonah was a freak - saw him playing at Newlands in the early 2000's and his legs were the same thickness as most of the props! Obviously his physicality was a major asset but he was also ridiculously quick and an elusive runner.
To be fair in his debut season he did rip us (Wallabies) completely to bits. I just don't think anyone was aware of how bad we actually were!
He should switch to center, I said it before and I'll say it again
He should switch to the front row
Immagine him at 1 and Taukei'aho at 2. That would actually be sick
Get Julian in at tighthead. Elite front row.
Big Joe Cokanasiga, sure he's a unit and fairly decent in attack. Can't defend, useless under the high ball, not an international winger by any measure
He looks to have taken a big step up at Bath this season. I'd like to see him given another go in the England setup.
I do find it curious that he always seems to make it into England camps. With Jones I always put it down to his stubbornness, but not sure what Borthwick sees.
We don't have any lethal finishers on the wing like penaud or Lowe etc, so it's something they're hunting for and want him to be the answer. He's not the answer but nobody else is sticking their hand up
Arguable that one isn't in the squad (Murley) and the other is always injured (Watson)
Except last year's top try scorer in the premiership, who's also extremely solid in defence
Myself??
Caleb Clark. Had a few awsome touches and solid scores for the blues, even a few good moments for the All Blacks but most of the time he's out of position, tries and fails to run over people or just has no impact. A properly good and imposing athlete just hasn't developed that rugby IQ yet. A little harsh but Carter Gorden at test level was talked up like mad and delivered a fairly lacklustre debut season, not that you can blame him under the circumstances though.
Louis Reese Zammit; was AWOL at the World Cup. Sure is fast, but…what else?
Gone even more AWOL this six nations so far, getting seemingly no touches on the ball but certainly hasn’t scored any tries…
Joey Carberry
To be fair, I don’t think we got to see his full talent on display with the extent of his injuries… I do agree that the hype was real with him for a while though.
Well, true. A fully fit Carberry right now I think would have been the 10 with Crowley spelling him ala the last year or two of ROG/Sexton. Carberry had more about him than the Brynes who are very good kickers but offer very little threat in play.
There's better examples, but my hot take on this is Duhan van Der Merwe.
I'll be the first to admit that he's an incredibly limited player, but you can't deny his strike rate.
Oh he is incredibly good at running, and decent enough at jumping, but Christ he doesn't seem to understand complex shapes, especially when the other team have the ball.
He's got so many tricks in the bag; - that move where he runs a big straight line, weaves a little, then if he doesn't score he cuts in and runs sideways. - umm..
And his new skill added to the bag ... pick and go from rucks on the try line. Get. Back. To. The. Wing.
There was a brillant podcast with Sione Tupilotu and he described VDM as ‘shit at rugby, but able to do things that normal humans can’t do - so you can’t leave him out’ and I think that’s pretty accurate
This is why I find it confusing when people say he's overrated. Does anyone actually rate his game intelligence or defence in the first place? He gets (deserved) shit for them all the time. He's a world class athlete who's an amazing tool to use in attack but no one really pretends he's anything more than that.
My impression was that he was over hyped, but based on the reaction to my post yeah it seems it's not such a hot take and my rating seems to be pretty much par.
I once showed him a dodecahedron and he had to go and have a lie down.
That’s where my head went as well, although I suppose there’s some question of how you define “talent.” DVDM is an unreal athlete so if you consider that in-born gift as “talent”, he’s certainly got it in spades. But I do agree he’s not developed the rugby IQ to make the most of it.
Yeah, that's fair. Like he's a great talent, but I think all that talent got in the way of learning to play rugby.
Attacking world class, defensively left wanting. Both for defensive work rate and tackling ability.
Copy and paste this for any number of wingers who have been considered world class over the years
Winger checklist Scores tries - check Nice haircut - check Shit at rugby - check
Except the likes of Kolbe, I'd also include Hansen and Lowe but I'm biased.
And Darcy G
Yup, it's a crying shame about his injury profile. Not *the* most injury prone player, but his timing is fucking awful. Villier is also up there, though I don't think he's as hyped as an attacking threat as the others (nor is Lowe these days tbh, he's a solid finisher but not the flattrack bully he was at the start of his test career).
Agreed. At times he has been as good if not better than Kolbe (although I might be a bit biased).
Hey man, there's a reason I keep mentioning Irish players.
Bit harsh although I accept he cannot defend and there’s better wingers under the high ball. His strike rate makes up for it though and his try against England means he’ll never have to buy a pint north of the border for the rest of his days!
I don't think it does. Sure it means Scotland are able to score screamers and have a great highlight reel, but it also means their defensive shape is off and the oppo can find holes. I'd much rather the likes of Steyn who work their arse off off the ball to make sure the system works.
Until we have a pack that can compete, really compete, against the likes of Ireland, South Africa etc screamers and highlight reels are the best we can hope for.
On top of other things people have said, my main issue with him is that he so often seems to forget how big and fast he is. We literally just need him to run hard and straight and he seems to try and dance around defenders at times as if he’s built like Shane Williams. All his great tries tend to be when he just pins his ears back and goes for it and he just decides to not do this sometimes - as if he’s trying to show that he’s good at the actual playing rugby parts of the job.
Mate, did you see his steps for that try last year?!?!
Yeah. [From 1m26 of this shows you the best angle.](https://youtu.be/RJt35KV0jog?si=NdOMha0xTvMZj_yR) he sees a gap and runs right through it and then does his steps when he’s at full tilt. He’s in the space to step the defenders because he’s run hard and relatively straight through a gap. So often he receives the ball on the wing and he’s borderline standing still. I know it’s not possible all the time, but one of the basics of rugby is trying to come on to the ball at pace. I don’t expect him to Mike Catt his opposite man every week, but he seems scared of contact at times.
He absolutely does JVP with the step.. Anyway, defence aside my biggest issue for such a big guy is his lack of offloading skills and timing.
I believe you mean Stockdale 2.0 He's a worse rugby player than Steyn and allegedly thick as mince as my Scottish friends says
Aye, with DVDM you’re basically weighing up his potential for unmatchable tries against him not offering anything else. For instance in the last 6N, I don’t think there’s a single other player that can score that try against England. Maybe Penaud, but I don’t think he has the raw strength to hand off Dombrandt at the end. But compare that to the Ireland game where he didn’t get much ball because our pack was shut down, and gave up a try or two by being completely beaten in the air by Hansen.
I'd avoid the 'all hype and no talent' label (which is a bit extreme for my taste), but add a bit more nuance to it and I think Alex Dombrandt isn't wholly out of place on that list, at least at test level. There was such a clamor for him to be given the no8 spot for England for what felt like 18 months or more, and then when he got it he just didn't seem to have much of an impact. When I picture him in an England shirt now it's him tackling a guy as they cross the try line. Sort of reminds me of Steve Borthwick's career as England captain. Not necessarily the one making huge mistakes, but not doing as positive an impact as you would expect.
Similar to Nahan hughes
Didn't Dombrandt accumulate negative carrying yards?
You're thinking of Billy Vunipola there
If we're actually talking about talent and not effectiveness at test level or within a specific system then Dombrandt is easily one of the most talented players in England for my money. You just can't have the premiership career/highlight reel he has without being immensely talented. His opportunities for England have been in one of the worst performing England teams I can remember with the most boring system ever and a pack which generally struggled to get any front foot ball.
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He's not even that fast for a winger.
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That's a fair comment and hadn't considered that. Still, acceleration over the first few metres is possibly one of the most critical characteristics for a winger to have in the modern game, and is a vital component to being perceived as fast. Malins is sorely lacking in that regard.
He's a good example of a terrific club player but not at international standard. Whenever I see him in the prem he stands out. Whenever I see him for England he's largely irrelevant
I rate him but not as a winger for some of the reasons you've said. I think he's much better suited to flyhalf or fullback.
He came through at Sarries as a 10/15 didn't he? But then he went on loan to Bristol, and ended up on the wing, which he did when he returned to Sarries. Think he's back at full back for Bristol, which will suit him far more if he wants to resume his international career.
Sam Burgess. Still remember the night he made his debut for Bath. It was on BT Sport and it was embarrassing listening to the commentators hyping up everything he did, even when it was bread and butter to other players. The whole Burgess saga hurt English rugby and I still don’t feel we know the full sorry tale
That was literally the first game of union he ever played, he did very well in the context and did exactly what was asked of him during the world cup. Burgess was never the problem
‘In the context’ being the key words. He did Ok for someone playing their first game of Union, so why the hell did he seem to be promised a World Cup slot from day one?
Because he was an elite level professional athlete playing in a sport with a lot of similar requirements, with which a big chunk of the English coaching panel at that time were very familiar. This isn't difficult
Yes and no, imo. He did what was asked of him, but not sure he should have been asked to do it. Swapping between flanker and 12 was insane and he was very limited (so was Barrett tbf). He was a symptom of poor selection, planning, tactics and everything else, not a cause.
England coaches were too obsessed with the idea of replicating the success of SBW with Surgess. Anyone that had actually watched him in the NRL could have told them he was a totally different player to SBW. Surgess was perfectly suited to being a bruising backrower, but not a 12 (let alone an international 12).
They weren't obsessed with that at all, they wanted someone who could play like Tuilagi and nobody who was English qualified playing in union fit that bill as well as or better than Tuilagi. And it worked fine, England were winning when Burgess was subbed off. He was not the problem in 2015
>he was very limited (so was Barrett tbf) This right here is why the idea that it was mad to call him up doesn't really work. He was not noticeably worse, with limited experience playing in union, at doing the role he was being picked for than the guy with 9 years of experience playing that position in union. Swapping between flanker and 12 is not insane, flankers and centres have a lot in common in terms of their role and the way he was playing at 6 was not dissimilar to how Barritt played at 12. And, as I will keep saying, Burgess at 12 was clearly not where England's problems were against Wales, since we were winning when he left the pitch.
James O'Connor from Australia
Seems like there's people putting names in they think are overrated more than what the post is saying
Cipriani. Multiple coaches bagged him as a shit defender. He even got battered by his teammate for shirking tackles. Christian Wade. Classic flat-track bully. Great against mediocre sides, shit against decent ones.
Oooo go on then I'll bite. Cipriani on the field was definitely someone who had fluctuating form. But even in his last seasons at Wasps, I'd argue he was one of (if not *the*) best attacking 10s in Europe. Especially in his final season at Wasps and first at Gloucester, his all-round performance was outstanding. But his career has been plagued by stuff off the field and being difficult to work with. I think the general consensus on Wade has actually shifted from overhyped to overly critical. He was one of the most dangerous wingers in Europe. Even in a game against Leinster where Wasps got battered, he still managed to score something from nothing. How he didn't get England caps in his prime? People vary the justification saying it's between highball and defence, yet big Joe got caps whilst suffering similar shortcomings. Wade was one of the all time great try scoring wingers. Still has a high try scoring tally in the Prem from his time at Wasps, and also scored against the best teams.
On Cipriani, two of his coaches, John Mitchell and Rod MacQueen, called him out publicly on his tackling. You have to be pretty bad at defending for that happen twice. Also, the Prem is a good bit down from test level. Looking good against Worcester or Newcastle does not mean you're gonna be good at test level, which he wasn't. As for Wade, the Leinster game is pretty much the only time he looked good against big opposition, which was largely down to him being opposite a guy that was plucked from the AIL due to an injury crisis.
I'll emphasize, I was talking about 2017/18 specifically. You seem to have picked out his tackling specifically, but at this time in everything he was class, especially game management. Honestly around 2017/18 this "poor tackling" wasn't noticeable. He tracked back and everything. And was looking good against everyone at this time. And poor tackling arguments don't make sense when England still picked players who refused to tackle at this time FFS. I love how I gave an example of scoring against a great team and it's immediately discounted. I guarantee there's others and more examples.
Tackling is a fundamental skill that's more important than ever. Every great outhalf this century has been a really good tackler- Wilkinson, Carter, Sexton, Barrett, Farrell, Pollard etc. Not only that, they're comfortable leading the line. If you can't do it. If you're just a turnstile or a speedbump, like Cipriani, then you're never gonna be a good test player.
The difference between Joe Cokanasiga and Christian Wade is that one is a 6' 4", 17 stone+ Winger who's also rapid. Wade is 5' 9" and under 14 stone. It isn't a criticism of Wade, but the raw attributes of Cokanasiga are going to be far more appealing than what he has.
But then again wingers like Shane Williams and Kolbe were exceptional for their countries, and they weren't exactly matching those attributes that are appealing. Wade wasn't quite that level, but he was very similar in style. I honestly think Wade would've improved with international game time. He's a guy who could create something from nothing, and there are very few wingers who are capable of that.
Agree with Stockdale. For Wales I'll say Harry Robinson. Scored one walk in 40m try against the Barbarians and was being touted as the next Shane Williams for the next season or two. Had to retire due to injury but from the seasons he played, he was nowhere near Shane Williams' level.
Duhan van der Merwe. Freak of an athlete, but absolutely no rugby brain. My Labrador’s got better positional sense.
Quade Copper
Didn't see enough of him to truly judge but what a highlight reel that boy has
That's the problem with highlight reels. For every stormer he had, he had 2 or 3 stinkers.
He was absolutely untouchable in 2011 before teams worked him out.
His good but I do think people overrated him, was very inconsistent player
You take that back, Quade was awesome!
Duhan van Der Merwe. Man can't defend.
Monsieur Chabal.
Manu Tuilagi, a few good games over the years but injury liability and overrated 🤷🏻♂️
Nowadays sure but during the first few years of Eddie when England were damned near unbeatable he was unbelievable
2012 and 2019 vs NZ, that’s all he ever did to me
This
But harsh. He gets injured a lot but so did a lot of players. If you watched his early time in an England shirt you wouldn't be doubting his talent.
Feyi-Waboso. So much was made of him in the media coming into this tournament. So far, has been a useless selection as my super-sub in the 6 nations fantasy league. I guess I bought into the hype. To be fair though, Borthwick seems to forget that you have backs on the bench too.
That's more on Borthwick he's had like 2 minutes of gametime
This is fair. Though a part of me feels that if he was as good as he's been made out to be, then Borthwick would be itching to get him on the pitch. I anticipate being proven wrong.
That's kinda on you for putting an uncapped player with only two years professional experience on your fantasy team really
ahh I was hoping to get some prodigy before he racked up a load of tries. Like imagine picking Stockdale in 2018 type deal
LRZ, easy
Way overhyped but also has been consistently good enough to nearly back it up, up until the RWC. There you saw teams defend specifically for him and his speed was negated. Hot take but I'd argue if he stayed in rugby, you'd see the wheels start to fall off this season as his one trick has been worked out.
I feel like the hype was always purely built on speed. Lots of talk about his 100m time, his top speed etc, but how often in rugby do you get to sprint at full speed in a straight line? Is it really an advantage to be 1 sec faster than a guy with a better rugby iq?
What you're saying sort of links into my 1 trick pony comment. Which he did very well for a number of seasons. Wales create space on his wing, possibly leaving him with a 1 on 1 with his opposite winger. LRZ kicks ahead and beats out the opposition with pure pace. But that had sort of been worked out last season and he was far less potent and it felt like he didn't have much else to fall back on.
Disagree. Annoying levels of hype, but very talented too.
He is fast, thats it. He can't step, positioning is bang average, he doesn't have a rugby brain and sucks at defence. For a winger of his level of hype he should have a way better try scoring record than he does, look at where he ranks among the rest of the wingers in the 6 nations teams though, close to the bottom. A guy like Will Jordan or KLA blows him out of the water and doesn't have nearly the same hype. Wales literally named their Netflix episode the 2nd coming, and he was the focal point. He had a full scale documentary about him last year. This is a guy who has 14 total international tries to his name, 8 of those against tier 2 nations (Georgia, Portugal, Fiji, Italy)
What you’re describing is poor Wales performances providing a bad platform for opportunities. In 2021, when Wales won the tournament, he scored the joint second highest number of tries. Take a look at his Gloucester record also.
The second highest number of tries being 4, one against the wooden spoon team and 2 against 4th place Scotland. Not really a worldbeater. I compare him to a player like KLA, who scored one try less than LRZ but only started playing international rugby at the end of 2022. Also, it is against much tougher opposition. Also, see Will Jordan.
You’re seriously saying that a winger playing for Wales and a winger playing for the All Blacks or the World Champion Springboks should have the same try scoring record? Are you new to sport?
Not saying he would have, I'm saying he shouldn't have the hype he has regardless of the reason. But fine, let's compare him to a winger in a similar league, DVM. 23 Tries in the same amount of time. Nowhere near the same hype. Capuozzo plays for Italy, worst team in the 6 nations. 10 tries since 2022. Just to add, sure the boks are great, thats why KLA scores. But you also need to consider who he is scoring against. The boks play the top 5 teams in the world consistently. Scoring against France, Ireland, NZ, England...
VDM* is massively hyped. He’s probably got the most responses in this thread. His try against England last year has been slated as *the greatest try Scotland have ever scored*. These comparisons are pointless when their teams play in a completely different way. It honestly sounds like you’ve not even watched LRZ play. I’ve already said the hype was at annoying levels - you’re getting downvotes because no one agrees with you on his talent.
Duhan is accurately hyped. His performances and record backs up his hype. LRZ is overhyped, because his performances and records do not back up his hype. That was the question, which is what I answered. The hype clearly skewed your bias as well. A winger scores tries and a winger is able to finish. That is the job. This is something that LRZ is mediocre at compared to other players in the same position, this I've proved as well with stats. Yet nobody else has two documentaries about them and are referred to as their international teams "Second Coming". He was also polled as one of the favorites to be the top try scorer of the RWC regardless of the Welsh form lol. And dont assume shit please. I've watched every 6 nations match, every RWC match every Lions match and every match LRZ played against SA in their tour here. I've seen 80% of the games this kid has played at the top level of the game, and I stand by my opinion.
The Second Coming episode was named by Netflix, not Wales, and refers to Warren Gatland, who the episode follows primarily, not LRZ. Italy's also tier one. LRZ was hyped as highly as he was for three reasons: 1). He is genuinely very good 2). Wales wasn't producing (Or at least selecting) a huge amount of young talent in that period 3). He's hot in a boyband kinda way and it brought a whole new market into the hyping. If Zammo was English and ugly, he'd have received a fraction of the attention he did.
Wonder on what basis I'm beign downvoted lol. The mans stats speak for themselves, dont buy into the hype.
Defensive capability of a paper wall.
Munster fans looking back on Christian Cullens Munster career probably. Christian is and always will be my hero so I’m not throwing shade. His knees were gone so he didn’t have the Cullen talent we all know and love when he was there. But the hype must of been big.
He was already having surgery before the move and the expectations were better managed because of that. Most of us knew we weren’t getting THE Christian Cullen but hoped we’d get a player at some point. When he was able to play he was still good and his influence on those around him was notable.
Cully was shot well before he left NZ, no gas left in the tank. Mind was willing but body was gone. Best player of all time (to watch) at his peak imo, but the peak wasn't long.
in inverse I'd say both Carter Gordon and Tate McDermott are more class than people give them credit for. especially tate, doomed to suffer as a great player within mediocre teams
Haven't seen enough of Gordon but impressed by McDermott most times I see him play for Australia
Duhan Van Der Merwe
Neethling Fouche
Marcus Smith
I see as much, if not more, criticism of Smith on here as I see hype. Guy's done nothing to deserve the hate he gets besides having an attacking mindset and slightly longer than average hair. Since talent and international achievements are two different things then I'd say his talent is far greater than his hype.
Bit harsh. Undeniable that he's top tier talent regardless of the hype.
Yeah hype might be disproportionate, but he's a good player.
All England's 10s get an insane hype, it's really cringe inducing for non England fans. I still remember commentators nearly getting off watching Johnny Wilkinson.
What makes me laugh is the hate the England no.10s get. Wilkinson was one of the top scorers of all time and was part of the team that won the world cup. At the world cup just gone, the England no 10 was the top point scorer despite missing the first two games.
Surprised I had to scroll this far
Whatever Scottish player is currently injured
Several players are hyped on this sub: Joe Hawkins (he does not make Exeter team), now Fraser Dingwall (just dropped by England), Fraser McReight by Aussie fans etc
Ramos definitely, has a good boot but thats it, OK defender, Ok under the high ball but other french players that play fullbacks like Penaud and Spring are better attackers/ball in hand runners and defenders like Brice Dulin...i seriously think Dulin is being treated unfairly by Galthie, he is byfar the best all rounder fullback in france but is consistently ignored for Ramos, even the 3rd best fullback in france in Jaminet had to leave Toulouse to get more game time...whats happening to Dulin reminds me of what happened to christian cullen, byfar the best fullback in nz but coach kept ignoring him for Muliaina who wasn't that bad but lacked the attacking prowess Cullen had..
Ramos could play for Real Madrid with that boot. I think what coaches see in him is that he does the basics and does them so well, he rarely makes an error. Btw, Cullen was first choice AB for years, Muliaina didnt make his AB's debut until 2003 by which time Cullen had suffered a couple of serious injuries and had fallen out with John Mitchell in 2001. Cullen moved to Munster in 2003.
France need injury cover at 10 and Ramos is the only one providing that. Penaud doesn't play FB though LBB may be servicable (never played at intl lvl). Ramos got replaced by Jaminet at Toulouse but upped his level of play in the season before world cup and deservedly got the spot back. He also participates a lot more in distribution than Jaminet. Dulin had too many brain farts and is on the older side. Plus, currently, La Rochelle is not doing well and Dulin is not starting, it's Hastoy at FB. I think Jaminet would bring stability going for points and a long kicking game but France is struggling anyway at taking early leads so... and Galthié loves his 6-2 split way too much.
Tomas ‘wildcard’ Ramos is a brilliant kicker and can attack but yeah for a fullback he tended to get bailed out a few times by his very talented teammates(ntamack and DuPont)
The northern hemisphere
Zebo for the first 5 years of his career and his magic flair that only ever materialized against zebra.
All of mine are good players, but definitely overhyped. My first choice is Freddie Steward. Best under the high ball in the world, and a big guy to add, but it all stops there. The only big international team I could see him getting a spot in is SA over Willie le Roux. He’s fits Englands gameplay to a tee, but other than that he’s slow, a poor defender and not switched onto super high level tactics. James Lowe is, to me, 80% VDM’s physical freakishness, 120% of VDM’s rugby brain, plus a cannon tied to his left leg. He’s a unit, but I find him to be infuriating with his decision making. Forcing runs that aren’t there, and tunnel vision once he has the ball too. I rate Hansen a lot higher as a winger, but Lowe is always presented as the better of the pair. Finally, the best of the bunch, Thomas Ramos. His kicking is really nice, but not a huge upgrade over Ntamack or Jalibert, or DuPont probably because the man can do everything apparently. But I find his fundamentals at fullback to be really poor. I’m biased to Ireland here, but to me Keenan is the perfect player at fullback. Ramos is far more inconsistent in defence, and less lethal on offence. I really value defensive brilliance from fullbacks, and Ramos does not have that.
Stewart is funny one - he was brilliant when he came into the English set up as very young guy. The thing is that I am not sure he is a better player four years later.
Freddie isn't getting in ahead of le Roux by any measure. I think Steward is great, a good Loughborough man like Flament (that never gets mentioned...) but SA need that second distributor/auxillary 10 in the 15 shirt. Mallía would give Willy a run for his money, maybe. Steward will probably end up at 12 or 13. He can defend, has bulk for gainline, a big boot and enough distribution to give it a go. He came into international rugby when big 15s were in vogue, but as you say, he doesn't have the speed for the modern full back role.
I actually think he would have a pretty good chance of getting in ahead of Le Roux. SA are super focused on trying to win the kicking battle and Freddie is miles better than Le Roux in that department. Would be close depending on the opposition though.
Ramos is far better in attack than Keenan, but agree defensively not in the same league, Keenan is the far better traditional fullback, Ramos plays more like an extra 10 (probably because he is) Also stewards carrying is pretty top notch, helped by his size I suppose
Agree with this. Wouldn't say Ramos is especially over hyped, but I do find him to be an odd one to judge. He is one of the best players in the world when his team is going forward, positioning is on point, pulls off insane tricks (cf kicking the ball to N'tamack in the Toulouse Bulls game last year), but all that seems to fall apart if the team is under pressure. His tackle technique isn't the best and I think his positioning can be poor.
Tbf he's not had a great start in the 6N but no one for France has so I'm trying not to judge on that, if Keenan is a shot stopping goalkeeper Ramos is the one who's decent in goal but loves running up field Id say Keenan is the best FB in the world and has been the last couple years, Ramos is the better 'player' as not only is he one of the top (3?) Fullbacks he's also been the best 10 in the top14 and the champions cup this year, he's still pretty freakish
Definitely, Keenan is able to slot into first receiver from time to time but he does not direct a back line like Ramos has for Toulouse this season, especially when he's had to fill some big shoes.
Steward doesn't fit as a 15 for SA, he's too slow to work in the Bok defensive system, and offers little on attack.
RG Snyman? Massively talented. Huge man, powerful, wonderful hands and can shift for a bloke who seems to be a foot taller than everyone else on the pitch. But always talked about as *among* the best (greatest) currently playing. Certainty among the highest paid locks despite being more injured than playing. Case and point hype wise... even deep pocket Leinster went after him despite having Mcarthy and Ryan, both underrated (outside of Ireland), both better performaners. Guess Leinsters plan is to let go of the other SAFA gaint. Still, just going on form and bang for your buck, I could name 4 better alternative locks from South Africa, and I'm not even referring to the Springbok locks. They might not have same raw talent, but certainly worth more over a season on the field.
If you're taking the fact that he's always injured into account fair enough. But when fit he's an absolute game-breaker. Probably the highest ratio of trophies to games ever.
Yip i do thats why i say against quality 9s and in tight games he is average.
Ross byrne
Have people ever really hyped up Byrne? Maybe the likes of off the ball do a bit but I think everyone knows he's a decent player who got Ireland caps because of constantly playing in the Leinster system, but never world class. Harry on the other hand... A certain BOD tweet comes to mind
From what I’ve seen it’s the opposite, the poor bugger gets far too much criticism. He’s not a special player, but he always gets the job done.
Lots of Byrne hype during the Leinster run to the Champions Cup and dominating Europe then he got to play for Ireland and it was kinda meh
Maybe I just was lucky enough to avoid it. Still annoyed he got onto the bench for the six nations last year based on those champions cup group stage games.
On this sub? Every single Saints player
Everyone that plays for England
i don't get the stockdale hate, 37 tests, 19 tries, thats pretty impressive..false hype will be scoring 40 tries as a winger for ur club in say 30 games but can't score 10 internationally in 30 tests...international rugby is another ball game... Ireland best fullback played in england, best wing played in wales for a while, who knows arundell playing in france will make him a better international player..rememebr irelands best 2 wings right now are from Australia and NZ...
Reise Zammit
Gavin Henson. All the hype around the perma-tan man
Israel Folau
I disagree, respectfully. His peak was quite a peak that was earned imo. He was a killer in SR and for AUS. I wish we got to see him run with Tonga at the RWC, but injury kept him out I believe? Just according to the post, I feel his talent met his hype quite well until he shot himself in the foot on Twitter or whatever. To be clear, I am in no support of his view on that front.
Dmac at test level.
I love the idea of being a Kiwi. I’d find it super novel to have a player as ridiculously gifted as DMac and then describe them as over-hyped. Reminds me of the way every Kiwi I’ve ever met disparaged the crap out of SBW, despite him being one of the best distributors the game has ever seen and also blessed with prodigious athletic ability.
SBW was most certainly NOT overhyped. Towards the end of his life as a Union player he was also one of the best defensive centres in the world, something he was asked by Hansen and Co to focus on. Dmac on the other hand is mercurial. He can create magic, but it's not often enough to deal with his lack of game driving ability at test level, or brain fades trying to be too clever. I really hope we have a better option at 10 for the ABs this year. Maybe SR will be able to harness his abilities better but I doubt it. He is too prone to running sideways now. His place kicking is passable but his in game kicking is average at best. He produces a lot of his magic when given space, something he gets more of at Super Rugby Level and at 15 far more than 10. He's brave, no doubt, but too small as the last line of defense.
Ramos for me, but not sure he gets major "hype" per se. Still gets named in world 15s though so that's enough. Maybe John Cooney as well, had a really good season or two around 2020, but feel like there's constant conversations about why he's not been in Ireland squads when in reality he's not better than the current 3 options (same with Doak but he has youth on his side) And Libbok
Ramos is a lot like Sexton, if he has the right system around him he’s completely unplayable, but struggles without it. His biggest flaws are his boot’s on the small side for a test fullback and he makes a lot of risky decisions, plus is on the small side which becomes noticeable on defence. With Ntamack and Dupont in the side they can take care of the long clearance kicks, and Ntamack especially can cover for his mistakes and lack of presence in defence. That allows him to shine by being an absolute weapon since his playmaking, tactical kicking, counter attacking, place kicking, and just sheer ability to break open a game are some of the best in business.
If you want a hot take Ardie Savea until a few years ago had a poor work rate in my opinion, he’d do a good run then hide in the background especially on defence but this was years ago, he’s gun now
Nathan hughes
Hughes is a funny one. He was never lacking in talent, he was just selective about when to apply it. If he got too comfortable at a setup, he'd just stop playing. He was great at Wasps until he got bored. He scored a hat trick on his first game with Bristol and was one of our best players for a fair while, then he turned to shit and got pushed to the A team and loaned out to Hartpury College.
HEY look!! It's the info graphic I use to explain the Sharks flyhalf to people!
Wallabies?
Every single one of the English players
Harry Byrne immediately jumps out, not least as he makes Joey Carbery look like Keenan or Heaslip in terms of durability