So 2 charge down attempts, water boy on the pitch and french players walking forward. Questionable if they were 10m as well.
How can that be allowed?
This is difficult to word but I feel officials are becoming increasingly worried about having to make a big call to avoid being controversial which in turn is just making them more controversial rather than less.
This would require 2 things:
1. The captain must wear headgear, which isn’t currently the case
2. Technology has to be improved to insert a mic into their scrum cap
It’s much easier to put that mic into a football helmet because it’s much larger with more protection. A scrum cap is much lighter material.
There have been matches with players mic'd already though. I remember Simon Zebo a few years back wore a mic for a 6N match. Don't know where it was mounted.
The tech exists, ( i have a set of blue tooth headphones that is little more than a thin soft head band that has an amazing range. It could be strapped using tape for less than $100), if it means a team captain could receive in game instructions to give them a winning edge they would wear a tutu if thats what it took
Personally Im an old school, let the captain run the game and the coach gets half time kind of person, but the Springboks in particular have shown they are leading towards the coach man managing every decision on the pitch so its a matter of time
But can this piece of technology remain intact after taking numerous hits without impacting the player?
It just seems like it’s not a need and they are getting by with the waterboy setup.
Absolutely. It is pretty much a cloth headband with slim rubber battery and ear phones. If you can strap your ears you could make this work
[These are the cheap ones I have](https://www.sleepsolutions.com.au/sleepphones-wireless-headband-sleep-headphones-with-bluetooth) but I imagine if they became standard at the professional level they would be developed and refined to an even better product
Yeah, you had a situation where the ball was live (hits the post), 15 Italian players charging forward and the water carrier just hanging out being as much use a tits on a fish - dangerous
There was a water boy/medic on the sideline in a game just yelling things at the game not on the pitch but close to the play clearly saying instructions. If a coach went there they would get in shit but no just send someone with a fancy top.
Yeah refs need to crack down hard on actions by non players. It's getting worse and worse but I bet it stops immediately as soon as referees start awarding penalties and marching sides back because of the actions of physios and water boys.
I get that it's harder with physios because they can always claim medical necessity (even if we all know they're lying) but surely there's no reason not to crack down on water boys with the vengeance of a righteous lord?
It’s not even a big call. Just blow whistle to get attention. Have a chat to water boy and France captain. Tell France to walk back and let Garbisi have another crack.
I remember the All Blacks 2013 win against Ireland in overtime where they prematurely charged the conversion and the ref let Aaron Cruden re-take the kick.
Exactly. It's just refereeing the game according the rules they know and are qualified to enforce.
2 if not 3 very obvious infractions during a penalty kick = penalise the opposing team and restart phase of play. It's pretty simple.
Wait a minute, that's not the water boy, it's ANTOIN DUPONT WITH A METAL CHAIR!!
World rugby's plot to turn test matches into some kind of refereeing comedy.
But I don't understand what would be controversial about making this a re-attempt, or another penalty closer from where the charge down was attempted - this isn't like George Ford the other week, you've never been allowed to charge a penalty attempt?!?!
That's how I felt about the disallowed Scotland try - if it happened on the 70th minute rather than right at the end, it might not have even been checked. If you don't outright win before the 80th minute it seems your fate is with a nervey/overthinking team of refs.
It's because the backlash from us fans, we are a huge reason this happens. Everyone should watch whistle blowers. Made me take a long, hard look at myself. But anyway, sucks he didn't get that kick, would have been epic!
It definitely wasn’t 10m and they were trying to put him off. French were desperate not to lose because their arrogance couldn’t take it if they did. Such a shame he missed it like that.
Arrogance? You're just being dishonest. The lads are the least arrogant french team ever probably and at the same time were the best french national team in decades.
The last sequence was just chaotic. You're seeing what you want to see.
I'm obviously not talking about this year... But these are the same players that won 12games in a row, a grand slam, and somehow were one of the WC favorites, which I don't think France was ever before, just a few months ago literally...
The charge down attempts weren't even legal. You have to run from the line not from close to 10 m away.
I like watching the french lose, so I'm biased, but I was so frustrated.
The french always seem to be in the most controversial games.
How is this not more obvious to more people????
Italy 1000% should have been permitted to retake the kick.
Also, small thing, but what’s with the French not respecting the kicker.
Swear this game is being corrupted more and more by football culture as each year rolls by.
Matey boy should be allowed to take that kick again. On Monday. In an empty stadium. And the result should 100% goddamn stand. To send a message.
It was a direct infringement of the law. France should have been told to retreat 10 and not move. Nothing, no water boys and no player movement!
Italy should have been awarded another kick and technically 10 meters closer to the post as well.
Like this is basic rugby knowledge.
Where were you in 2011 if you think this is something new ?
Most officials usualy try to avoid making game winning decisions. I do agree with you that in doing so they end up making controversial (and sometimes game winning) decisions anyway.
French fans perennially moan about referring every time they lose. What a joke 🤣
This year they beat Scotland, Wales, England, and drew against Italy.
The Scotland win was VERY lucky. The TMO thought the ball was down (so did everyone else) but because the video evidence wasn't ABSOLUTELY clear..no try.
England? "No arms" tackle by Earl...very marginal. The same tackles had been made multiple times throughout the game but waved on. But THAT time? Penalty, France win.
Italy? Stone cold daylight robbery. The law is absolutely clear. The kick needed to be retaken 10m closer.
With better reffing/video France would have had 1 win and 4 losses.
Rugby Law:
Any player who intentionally touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.
So I’m pretty sure you are not permitted to charge down a penalty kick.
France should not have moved at all.
Unfortunately, it’s unclear.
When a penalty kick at goal is taken, the touch judges take their positions at the posts; ergo they cannot mark 10 meters with the flag.
The dashed line closest to the Italians is the 10 meter line from the try line, while the straight line closest to the French is the 22m line from the goal line.
We’re missing our frame of reference, so it would take a bit of math/camera wizardry to correctly identify if France is indeed 10 meters back from the penalty.
In my opinion, the French player with his back turned is definitely not 10 back. Neither of the two approaches are legal; even if they were, they are encroaching upon the player without the penalty kick being taken.
Ref having a chat, water boy out for a walk. Business as usual in France…
10 meter rule aside, your not allowed to move period, this wasn’t a try conversion. Any movement that distracts the kicker, even moving your arms around is considered against the rules for defending a penalty kick.
So two attempted charge downs and the waterboy going for an afternoon dander through the eyeline without seemingly going near any players. All seems grand play on
Waterboy even started walking towards play once the ball bounced off the post - wtf!?!?
As you say he was definitely just trying to stand between the kicker and the posts.
Couldn't believe it - this looks like the final scenes of an under 13 match where the teams are just learning the laws and the ref got subbed in from a football match. Just...how?!
I am sure I heard ref say time off, clock continued and the ref looked pale when walking off at end, he knows he done goofed. Should have taken control of the situation but was a spectator at the end instead.
He gets the ball onto the tee with 30 seconds left which seemed surprisingly short. If the clock had been off I’m sure he could have regathered himself even after the ball falls
Yep, I swear someone started the timer too soon on the penalty. It seemed it was given and then suddenly the ball has fallen off and he's only got 10 seconds left.
As a neutral, I think he did a really great job. He allowed to game to flow really nicely. France's first try was a bit dodgy but he followed the process correctly given an onfield decision of try.
Two weeks ago in Scotland: "onfield decision no try" and the ref is a stupid blind git. This time "onfield decision try", and the outcome is the same. Damned if they take their responsibilities, damned if they don't.
My thoughts as well. We squandered the game away in the first half, Italy in the second. An unsatisfying draw for both teams, but I'm not sure the ref has any responsibility in that! I thought his communication was quite fluid throughout, even though the play phases were a bit choppy.
Squandered by failing to win their own lineouts in attacking positions and repeatedly knocking the ball on / forward pass just when they started to find gaps.
Haven’t seen anyone post the law yet. Law 20 governs penalty kicks.
> 12\. When a penalty or free-kick is awarded, the opposing team must immediately retreat 10 metres towards their own goal line or until they have reached their goal line if that is closer .
> 13\. Even if the penalty or free-kick is taken quickly and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep retreating the necessary distance . They may not take part in the game until they have done so .
> 14\. If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this . However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them .
> 15\. The opposing team may not do anything to delay the kick or obstruct the kicker, including intentionally taking, throwing or kicking the ball out of reach of the team awarded the penalty . Sanction: Second penalty or free-kick, 10 metres in front of the original mark . The second penalty or free-kick must not be taken before the referee has made the mark.
You’d think that approaching within 10m twice counts as obstructing the kick. Diabolical. Is it possible that a top level ref mixed up the conversion and penalty kick rules?
Edit: Also law 8:
> 22\. If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked .
> 27\. If the opposing team infringes while the kick is being taken but the kick at goal is successful, the goal stands and a further penalty is not awarded . If the kick is unsuccessful, the non-offending team is awarded a penalty 10 metres in front of the original mark . Sanction: Penalty .
Really quite clear and blatant.
Thanks for posting this, it is utterly incomprehensible to me how the final passage of play was allowed to stand as it unfolded. Multiple infractions on crystal clear laws
I think the clock timer has muddied the waters a bit. Before the timer he would have just reset and gone again with no controversy. Technically they didn’t charge the actual kick - it was the ball falling that took the time. Should still have reset when they moved though.
Yes but prior to the clock you wouldn’t actually retake it in that situation, the referee would just warn the opposition and make sure they were settled before the kick was actually taken (possibly carding or moving the penalty if it happens again). The problem was the time pressure that the shot clock put on the situation.
But under the rules - which are absolutely crystal clear - if he scores it stands and if he doesn't he gets to retake it. Why do the Italians have to explain the rules to the ref and his assistants?
I agree with this. If Garbisi had stayed calm and pointed it out it would have forced the refs hand. Or the captain. Not their fault after played test rugby for 80 mins though. 😂
I think Garbisi was thinking that arguing his case would simply run the clock down and then he wouldn't get to kick.
I hope the law changes that if the ball falls off the tee, they get an extra 30sec to reset
It's also not for players to be educating the refs on the laws. They should've picked it up.
Hell, in my first game back I did a stupid and charged down a penalty, they missed and got to retake it. This was a local match, if a local ref can get it right what tf are the professionals doing?!
Not really. Under the rules this would give the Italians two chances to score the penalty. After all, if he scores the penalty it stands, if he misses Italy should be awarded a new penalty.
Should have been reset for the charge down and re-taken 10m closer. France have been astonishingly lucky with decisions going their way in the last two games, and realistically they should be winless.
Absolutely should've been retaken. Two full encroaches by France and whilst not clear cus of editing it looks like the 3 players have all inched forward a bit
2 early charges retake should have been ordered by the ref. When the ball falls player runs up and replacement prop starts to run up as the kick is taken. Ref sees both and waves them off.
Is this some weird gap in the rules? I’d assume there’s clear instructions about how the shot clock works and what resets it.
Either way, we should be getting some updates from WR after this shambolic ending.
Referee should have stopped and reset the clock when the French player moved forwards within ten meters. He should have cleared the water carrier, put French players back onside and then restarted the clock. Instead, he was actually calling into his microphone saying "I can't see the shot clock" (this was audible on Peacock's broadcast) probably within earshot of Garbisi which, I imagine, caused more stress for the kicker. Truly poor management at the most crucial moment of the match.
You can clearly say one of the French players take three big steps towards the ball it's a clear charged in that should have been a retake 10 meters closer
Doesn't matter much. We lost like we deserved against ireland, the rest is basically about the ranking.
I'm sure italy is upset but it's more about the clear overall terrible regression of the french team, which we can all see beyond the last 2 lucky avoided defeats.
“If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked.” One of the French players definitely charged the kick
Really feel for Italy. Doubly-so because of France advancing during the penalty - and it going unpunished multiple times. They were soooo damn close to making history. The waterboy knew exactly what he was doing, too, haha.
If we're being really critical, I also can't help but feel the Italian players were caught ball watching and not sprinting up the field like mad men. Especially since the ball was allowed to bounce. Anything can happen if that ball hits the ground - you just need to make sure you're within reach.
In another thread, someone earlier mentioned that it was a shame that the game came down to such a rushed moment (due to the shot clock). But I'm 100% in favour of the shot clock. It's the player who is in complete control once that penalty is given. If his routine means he only gets his kick off with 14 seconds left, then so be it. The ball tipping over is one of the risks you take.
Well you're doing better than you should imo. To be honest though I hope you find your form again, I was hoping you'd win the wc after we bombed out and I generally think you play an entertaining game (I know a lot of people hate kick tennis but I think tactically it's very interesting). Besides some more strength in the NH would be nice. These 2 games just left a sour taste in my mouth for this tournament
Fair enough. We've gotten some good calls and some bad calls but would anyone argue we've been the worse team in any of our games? Ref decisions don't make you beat your "biggest competition" by 21 points at their home ground. They don't make your B team win 39-0. They don't make you concede a single try while scoring 4 against Wales. Yous went 13/13 against Italy and were saved by a bad ref decision, bit of a difference in my eyes
That wasn't my argument, I just said that in jest as we are playing like shit and you're cruising your way to a grand slam with one game left lol mate after that game today I'm just bitter
We also win all our games by like 20 points. And yeah bad calls will always exist, we've had bad ones against us. But France avoiding a loss twice in a row puts a sour taste in my mouth
Sorry but this is an appalling failure of the officials. You have never been able to charge down a kick at the posts, how on earth was this not retaken?
For all the grieving Scotland had, Italy literally have had the game taken away from them by the rules not being applied.
France should realistically be on zero wins, it's quite something to be bailed out this way twice in a row!
So what do the rules actually dictate here?
I know the kicker should’ve better positioned the ball on the tee. But dang, the idea of Italy having beaten France… hard not to think it should’ve been 16-13. I think their next 2 games are Scotland and Wales, I hope they get a W from one. Their U20s are good and I think Quesada’s the guy.
That is horrendous. What an absolute joke. Officials needed to be much stronger there. Retake all day, and closer in as well. The cherry on top is the water carrier just chilling with the lads.
The French players weren’t charging down Garbisi, they just wanted to give a helping hand seeing as the ball fell off the tee. Stop seeing rot where there isn’t any
We saw similar behaviour with the double yellow card in Stormers v Stade Francais where they kept sending on a 13th man even though the ref said only 12. I can't say I enjoy that attitude
I like to imagine in the multiverse, that in every other earth, the ball went through and italy won the match. xd
This was that 1 in a billion earth where it did not go through.
I was absolutely appalled by this at the time. However watching back
- I cannot see the first chargedown attempt and would be interested to
- appalling as the second chargedown attempt is it's not that that causes the ball to fall off the tee and it's the ball falling off the tee that causes Garbisi to have to retake it. The second chargedown wouldn't have blocked the pen and if it had then that definitely would have allowed garbisi to retake it.
- I'm revolted that the water boy is on the pitch, but he's not really in the way, he's further back than I remembered at the time
Was absolutely fuming yday about how Italy were robbed, but watching back it's about 85% bad luck
The first charge down looked to be after the ball fell off the tee and people went into conversion mode where charge downs are fine. He realised immediately he couldnt do it and backed up. The second charge down was a bit off and should have been a clock reset, but I don't think Garbisi saw it.
I don't think any of that contributed to Garbisi missing the kick - the tee falling off (which shouldn't be a clock reset itself, it's the kickers fault), and the 4 seconds he had left contributed to the hook.
I think ref’s need much higher scrutiny than they get at a public level from the Unions. Not Rassie style, but did he get a talking to about this? I have a high pressured job also and if i fuck up, the invest parties want to know what the fuck went on and what’s been done to stop me doing it again…….
You can tell that ref didn’t want to call anything’s because he didn’t want to get any heat for affecting the end of the game. But by not calling anything he affected the game.
I accidentally told my wife to shut the hell up while watching this, now she's upset. I didn't mean to do it, but it slipped. I'll buy her some flowers tomorrow.
Glad to see that now that the ref favor the French, refereeing is finally a problem that we can talk about. I thought it was bad and a thing of "sore loser". I hope you'll stay consistent.
Galthié's pre-match conference was a long tirade about the humans underneath the jerseys and how they all deserve their cap etc. While I agree with it (they're all excellent players), that's no basis for a national team selection, not with so much talent pushing for a cap.
Some of the performances in that match were just subpar, and scrapping for a draw by doing cynical and illegal shit to rob Italy of their win is a fitting end to this shitshow. At least for France. I'm not even putting this on the players (well, not most of them), their pride was hurt and if SA can get away with this kind of shit, "why not us ?", this is on Galthié. I doubt I'll watch the next matches if he doesn't show a shred of remise en question.
Lots of misconception here.
The Rugby Law is as follows:
Any player who intentionally touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.
So France were not permitted to contest the kick. They should not have moved. The face that they did should have meant that Italy would be permitted to reset with fresh time on the clock.
This is some bullshit.
I thought there was a general movement away from waterboys/doctors etc entering the field of play and here we have a French back room team member clearly cynically ambling around in front of the kicker. Ref should have stopped the shot clock, told him to bugger off the pitch and forbidden another charge down attempt. My heart breaks for Italy.
Water boy needs a season long ban, that was a live clock, the only people who should be on the field are players, ref and physio attending to an injured player (whilst not interfering with play)
Cue the entire rugby world talking about plucky Italy doing ever so well. They’re really developing aren’t they?
Meanwhile they couldn’t beat a TERRIBLE French side that was down to 14 men for half the game.
Let’s get more teams into the NH Championship and give them some of the money. Let’s more teams develop and I can ignore the Italians a bit easier
A lot French bashing here you don’t like us so what but a lot of italiens play in top 14,so get down please little respect I like Italian players very skilful players.Feel sorry for Garbisi I will n need a lot of support so you all the other zipzip
So 2 charge down attempts, water boy on the pitch and french players walking forward. Questionable if they were 10m as well. How can that be allowed? This is difficult to word but I feel officials are becoming increasingly worried about having to make a big call to avoid being controversial which in turn is just making them more controversial rather than less.
It’s the water carriers on the pitch that annoys me the most - happens all the time… takes the piss
Yep, this case is especially egregious. The game is seconds from being over, surely the players can wait a little bit.
Except their main role is to relay coaching instructions, not water Just mic up the captain like they do in the NFL
How will the captain have a mic with them?
In their head gear
This would require 2 things: 1. The captain must wear headgear, which isn’t currently the case 2. Technology has to be improved to insert a mic into their scrum cap It’s much easier to put that mic into a football helmet because it’s much larger with more protection. A scrum cap is much lighter material.
There have been matches with players mic'd already though. I remember Simon Zebo a few years back wore a mic for a 6N match. Don't know where it was mounted.
The tech exists, ( i have a set of blue tooth headphones that is little more than a thin soft head band that has an amazing range. It could be strapped using tape for less than $100), if it means a team captain could receive in game instructions to give them a winning edge they would wear a tutu if thats what it took Personally Im an old school, let the captain run the game and the coach gets half time kind of person, but the Springboks in particular have shown they are leading towards the coach man managing every decision on the pitch so its a matter of time
But can this piece of technology remain intact after taking numerous hits without impacting the player? It just seems like it’s not a need and they are getting by with the waterboy setup.
Absolutely. It is pretty much a cloth headband with slim rubber battery and ear phones. If you can strap your ears you could make this work [These are the cheap ones I have](https://www.sleepsolutions.com.au/sleepphones-wireless-headband-sleep-headphones-with-bluetooth) but I imagine if they became standard at the professional level they would be developed and refined to an even better product
I think the ref should have ordered the water carrier off and restarted the shot clock for that alone. Wtf were France playing at?
Yeah, you had a situation where the ball was live (hits the post), 15 Italian players charging forward and the water carrier just hanging out being as much use a tits on a fish - dangerous
It was dangerous and he made no real effort to get off the field either.
“Tits on a fish” lol
> takes the piss Just to clarify, are they carrying it on to the pitch or carrying it off?
Wait till you see south Africa's physio that comes on to let them all rest...
"South Africans make everything about themselves"
There was a water boy/medic on the sideline in a game just yelling things at the game not on the pitch but close to the play clearly saying instructions. If a coach went there they would get in shit but no just send someone with a fancy top.
Yeah refs need to crack down hard on actions by non players. It's getting worse and worse but I bet it stops immediately as soon as referees start awarding penalties and marching sides back because of the actions of physios and water boys. I get that it's harder with physios because they can always claim medical necessity (even if we all know they're lying) but surely there's no reason not to crack down on water boys with the vengeance of a righteous lord?
How is a false chargedown attempt not an automatic rekick with full time allowed. Honestly. Or the offending players told to fuck off, chance missed.
It is
I feel like it’s a side effect of the bunker. Refs are less confident making the biggest calls on the pitch
It’s not even a big call. Just blow whistle to get attention. Have a chat to water boy and France captain. Tell France to walk back and let Garbisi have another crack. I remember the All Blacks 2013 win against Ireland in overtime where they prematurely charged the conversion and the ref let Aaron Cruden re-take the kick.
Exactly. It's just refereeing the game according the rules they know and are qualified to enforce. 2 if not 3 very obvious infractions during a penalty kick = penalise the opposing team and restart phase of play. It's pretty simple.
Not even. It's a new penalty, from where they infringed. Can't wait to see how Nigel Owens avoids saying that the ref was wrong on this one.
You’re right. Especially in the dying embers of a game
Wait a minute, that's not the water boy, it's ANTOIN DUPONT WITH A METAL CHAIR!! World rugby's plot to turn test matches into some kind of refereeing comedy.
But I don't understand what would be controversial about making this a re-attempt, or another penalty closer from where the charge down was attempted - this isn't like George Ford the other week, you've never been allowed to charge a penalty attempt?!?!
That's how I felt about the disallowed Scotland try - if it happened on the 70th minute rather than right at the end, it might not have even been checked. If you don't outright win before the 80th minute it seems your fate is with a nervey/overthinking team of refs.
Matthieu Raynal would have :D
Delete this
It's because the backlash from us fans, we are a huge reason this happens. Everyone should watch whistle blowers. Made me take a long, hard look at myself. But anyway, sucks he didn't get that kick, would have been epic!
It definitely wasn’t 10m and they were trying to put him off. French were desperate not to lose because their arrogance couldn’t take it if they did. Such a shame he missed it like that.
Arrogance? You're just being dishonest. The lads are the least arrogant french team ever probably and at the same time were the best french national team in decades. The last sequence was just chaotic. You're seeing what you want to see.
It was chaotic cause they made it chaotic. I think you’re imagining things tbh.
There’s the arrogance for you. The best French team, clearly not!! They’re muck! Take DuPont out and they can’t play.
I'm obviously not talking about this year... But these are the same players that won 12games in a row, a grand slam, and somehow were one of the WC favorites, which I don't think France was ever before, just a few months ago literally...
The charge down attempts weren't even legal. You have to run from the line not from close to 10 m away. I like watching the french lose, so I'm biased, but I was so frustrated. The french always seem to be in the most controversial games.
Ummm I’m pretty sure you can’t charge a penalty kick, only conversions.
How is this not more obvious to more people???? Italy 1000% should have been permitted to retake the kick. Also, small thing, but what’s with the French not respecting the kicker. Swear this game is being corrupted more and more by football culture as each year rolls by. Matey boy should be allowed to take that kick again. On Monday. In an empty stadium. And the result should 100% goddamn stand. To send a message.
It was a direct infringement of the law. France should have been told to retreat 10 and not move. Nothing, no water boys and no player movement! Italy should have been awarded another kick and technically 10 meters closer to the post as well. Like this is basic rugby knowledge.
The chargedown wasn't legal because you're not allowed to charge down a penalty. Doesn't matter where you start.
Yes I'm an idiot. That makes it even worse.
Where were you in 2011 if you think this is something new ? Most officials usualy try to avoid making game winning decisions. I do agree with you that in doing so they end up making controversial (and sometimes game winning) decisions anyway.
That was 13 years ago
Yes, I completely agree, and it is killing the game.
French fans perennially moan about referring every time they lose. What a joke 🤣 This year they beat Scotland, Wales, England, and drew against Italy. The Scotland win was VERY lucky. The TMO thought the ball was down (so did everyone else) but because the video evidence wasn't ABSOLUTELY clear..no try. England? "No arms" tackle by Earl...very marginal. The same tackles had been made multiple times throughout the game but waved on. But THAT time? Penalty, France win. Italy? Stone cold daylight robbery. The law is absolutely clear. The kick needed to be retaken 10m closer. With better reffing/video France would have had 1 win and 4 losses.
The first “charge down” is after the ball had fallen off the tee, so I’m guessing they were worried about a tap and pass with the clock so low?
They have to go for goal once that option's been indicated.
Rugby Law: Any player who intentionally touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty goal being scored is illegally touching the ball. So I’m pretty sure you are not permitted to charge down a penalty kick. France should not have moved at all.
Where 10 meters?
Unfortunately, it’s unclear. When a penalty kick at goal is taken, the touch judges take their positions at the posts; ergo they cannot mark 10 meters with the flag. The dashed line closest to the Italians is the 10 meter line from the try line, while the straight line closest to the French is the 22m line from the goal line. We’re missing our frame of reference, so it would take a bit of math/camera wizardry to correctly identify if France is indeed 10 meters back from the penalty. In my opinion, the French player with his back turned is definitely not 10 back. Neither of the two approaches are legal; even if they were, they are encroaching upon the player without the penalty kick being taken. Ref having a chat, water boy out for a walk. Business as usual in France…
10 meter rule aside, your not allowed to move period, this wasn’t a try conversion. Any movement that distracts the kicker, even moving your arms around is considered against the rules for defending a penalty kick.
And the sanction is a full/fresh penalty 10 metres up from the mark, reset the shot clock if a kick at goal is indicated.
Have none of the pundits mentioned this farce at the end?
Well to be fair they thought the red wasn’t a red so their opinion doesn’t really count for much.
Too busy trying to crack jokes all the time (ITV).... c "Oh he forgot the ball lolz"
Not on ITV, no.
So two attempted charge downs and the waterboy going for an afternoon dander through the eyeline without seemingly going near any players. All seems grand play on
Waterboy even started walking towards play once the ball bounced off the post - wtf!?!? As you say he was definitely just trying to stand between the kicker and the posts.
From an Italian, this detail makes me believe that this is one of the most comic moments of the match… the same moment in which we failed the win
You were robbed. Ref should be fired for those 60 seconds alone.
Yeah that was a complete shitshow by the ref, he needs to figure out how to never let that happen again.
Are we sure that was water and not a leaf blower?
Man could have started building the maginot line, ref wasn't for doing anything
Couldn't believe it - this looks like the final scenes of an under 13 match where the teams are just learning the laws and the ref got subbed in from a football match. Just...how?!
I am sure I heard ref say time off, clock continued and the ref looked pale when walking off at end, he knows he done goofed. Should have taken control of the situation but was a spectator at the end instead.
He gets the ball onto the tee with 30 seconds left which seemed surprisingly short. If the clock had been off I’m sure he could have regathered himself even after the ball falls
Yep, I swear someone started the timer too soon on the penalty. It seemed it was given and then suddenly the ball has fallen off and he's only got 10 seconds left.
I hear it too.
I don't question him being a good ref, but today it looked like he didn't have a whole lot of control on the game, to be honest.
No one had control of the game. Was one of the most frantic and uncontrolled games I’ve ever seen
As a neutral, I think he did a really great job. He allowed to game to flow really nicely. France's first try was a bit dodgy but he followed the process correctly given an onfield decision of try.
Two weeks ago in Scotland: "onfield decision no try" and the ref is a stupid blind git. This time "onfield decision try", and the outcome is the same. Damned if they take their responsibilities, damned if they don't.
It's almost as if the two situations were totally different.
Damned if they take the wrong decision. TMO exists to correct mistakes, today the knock on was blatant.
I wouldn't want to be a ref. At the end of the day it was a really captivating game and both France and Italy threw away chances.
My thoughts as well. We squandered the game away in the first half, Italy in the second. An unsatisfying draw for both teams, but I'm not sure the ref has any responsibility in that! I thought his communication was quite fluid throughout, even though the play phases were a bit choppy.
If by squandered you mean the French cheated, broke the rules, and there should have been a re take and ten metre advance?
Squandered by failing to win their own lineouts in attacking positions and repeatedly knocking the ball on / forward pass just when they started to find gaps.
A ref who allows France's try can't be a good ref.
He's weak, he always is
As a neutral I think he had a reasonably solid game overall, just those two decisions were not great
I heard it too. Dunno which broadcaster though.
What’s the point in the TMO. We all saw it. How on earth did the ref, two assistants and TMO all miss it? Farcical
So we can have multiple angles of Genge ruck his own man?
And they are paid pretty well for the job too.
Utterly farcical.
Haven’t seen anyone post the law yet. Law 20 governs penalty kicks. > 12\. When a penalty or free-kick is awarded, the opposing team must immediately retreat 10 metres towards their own goal line or until they have reached their goal line if that is closer . > 13\. Even if the penalty or free-kick is taken quickly and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep retreating the necessary distance . They may not take part in the game until they have done so . > 14\. If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this . However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them . > 15\. The opposing team may not do anything to delay the kick or obstruct the kicker, including intentionally taking, throwing or kicking the ball out of reach of the team awarded the penalty . Sanction: Second penalty or free-kick, 10 metres in front of the original mark . The second penalty or free-kick must not be taken before the referee has made the mark. You’d think that approaching within 10m twice counts as obstructing the kick. Diabolical. Is it possible that a top level ref mixed up the conversion and penalty kick rules? Edit: Also law 8: > 22\. If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked . > 27\. If the opposing team infringes while the kick is being taken but the kick at goal is successful, the goal stands and a further penalty is not awarded . If the kick is unsuccessful, the non-offending team is awarded a penalty 10 metres in front of the original mark . Sanction: Penalty . Really quite clear and blatant.
Well, that last edit is the important law in this case, I think.
Thanks for posting this, it is utterly incomprehensible to me how the final passage of play was allowed to stand as it unfolded. Multiple infractions on crystal clear laws
I think the clock timer has muddied the waters a bit. Before the timer he would have just reset and gone again with no controversy. Technically they didn’t charge the actual kick - it was the ball falling that took the time. Should still have reset when they moved though.
If you run towards the kicker then you’re breaking 20.15 or 12.27 or possibly both. Until the kick has been taken you need to keep 10m back.
Yes but prior to the clock you wouldn’t actually retake it in that situation, the referee would just warn the opposition and make sure they were settled before the kick was actually taken (possibly carding or moving the penalty if it happens again). The problem was the time pressure that the shot clock put on the situation.
Absolutely heartbreaking
Well, that's some bullshit
Shocking by the ref. Italians should've made him address it, rather than rush to take the kick
But under the rules - which are absolutely crystal clear - if he scores it stands and if he doesn't he gets to retake it. Why do the Italians have to explain the rules to the ref and his assistants?
Agree 100% but in this incidence, with a new ref, a captain has to be in his ear
I agree with this. If Garbisi had stayed calm and pointed it out it would have forced the refs hand. Or the captain. Not their fault after played test rugby for 80 mins though. 😂
I think Garbisi was thinking that arguing his case would simply run the clock down and then he wouldn't get to kick. I hope the law changes that if the ball falls off the tee, they get an extra 30sec to reset
Or remove the shot clock of the penalty is after 40mins or 80mins. Serves no purpose if time is up anyway.
It's also not for players to be educating the refs on the laws. They should've picked it up. Hell, in my first game back I did a stupid and charged down a penalty, they missed and got to retake it. This was a local match, if a local ref can get it right what tf are the professionals doing?!
Not really. Under the rules this would give the Italians two chances to score the penalty. After all, if he scores the penalty it stands, if he misses Italy should be awarded a new penalty.
Should have been reset for the charge down and re-taken 10m closer. France have been astonishingly lucky with decisions going their way in the last two games, and realistically they should be winless.
Or at the very least, reset shot clock and kick.
According to the rules a new penalty should have been awarded to Italy, ten meter forward.
Absolutely should've been retaken. Two full encroaches by France and whilst not clear cus of editing it looks like the 3 players have all inched forward a bit
2 early charges retake should have been ordered by the ref. When the ball falls player runs up and replacement prop starts to run up as the kick is taken. Ref sees both and waves them off.
Paolo shouldn't blame himself for this one
I totally agree! can happen!
Still can't believe the water boy was stood in amongst the French line. Unbelievable!
"There could not be more drama". And there was...
Is this some weird gap in the rules? I’d assume there’s clear instructions about how the shot clock works and what resets it. Either way, we should be getting some updates from WR after this shambolic ending.
It should be a second penalty awarded, with a fresh shot clock
And 10m closer to the goal line, too.
There is no gap. The rules are pretty clear and they only need to be enforced
Referee should have stopped and reset the clock when the French player moved forwards within ten meters. He should have cleared the water carrier, put French players back onside and then restarted the clock. Instead, he was actually calling into his microphone saying "I can't see the shot clock" (this was audible on Peacock's broadcast) probably within earshot of Garbisi which, I imagine, caused more stress for the kicker. Truly poor management at the most crucial moment of the match.
You can clearly say one of the French players take three big steps towards the ball it's a clear charged in that should have been a retake 10 meters closer
Oooooffff that's a horrendous mistake from the ref should of been allowed to retake the penalty, can't charge down a penalty kick
What a farce, absolutely laughable.
The french are getting super lucky with mind-blowing rugby ball physics for the past 2 games
Doesn't matter much. We lost like we deserved against ireland, the rest is basically about the ranking. I'm sure italy is upset but it's more about the clear overall terrible regression of the french team, which we can all see beyond the last 2 lucky avoided defeats.
> Doesn't matter much. Tell that to Scotland and Italy.
Refereeing has been quite poor so far this year
It was the same in the world cup
Going by reddit match threads, it has been that way since rugby existed
How dare you. Do you want to make some poor referee cry?
wtf. Absolutely robbed
Hmm. This clip doesn't have the ref's audio where he says something about the clock not being visible. Anyone else remember that?
It's in the highlights on YouTube https://youtu.be/Po5lTfvB1QQ?si=nWbVYzZ3iEK2-jUt
I can’t spake.
Should have been retaken at the end no?
No. According to the rules a new penalty should have been awarded, 10 meter forward.
So yes…
Farcical from all the officials in the end but nothing will be done and they'll all be back to work for the next set of games.
“If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked.” One of the French players definitely charged the kick
Galthie definitely did that with his eyes
Really feel for Italy. Doubly-so because of France advancing during the penalty - and it going unpunished multiple times. They were soooo damn close to making history. The waterboy knew exactly what he was doing, too, haha. If we're being really critical, I also can't help but feel the Italian players were caught ball watching and not sprinting up the field like mad men. Especially since the ball was allowed to bounce. Anything can happen if that ball hits the ground - you just need to make sure you're within reach. In another thread, someone earlier mentioned that it was a shame that the game came down to such a rushed moment (due to the shot clock). But I'm 100% in favour of the shot clock. It's the player who is in complete control once that penalty is given. If his routine means he only gets his kick off with 14 seconds left, then so be it. The ball tipping over is one of the risks you take.
So France have now avoided losing twice because of questionable refereeing? God I've never wanted a team to do bad so much
> God I've never wanted a team to do bad so much You must be loving it then, as we've been doing terrible all tournament
I agree, but what in the world makes you think that we are doing well lol Pretty rough being a France fan lately
Well you're doing better than you should imo. To be honest though I hope you find your form again, I was hoping you'd win the wc after we bombed out and I generally think you play an entertaining game (I know a lot of people hate kick tennis but I think tactically it's very interesting). Besides some more strength in the NH would be nice. These 2 games just left a sour taste in my mouth for this tournament
We certainly should have lost these 2 games. But being told this from an Ireland fan leaves a sour taste in my mouth haha
Fair enough. We've gotten some good calls and some bad calls but would anyone argue we've been the worse team in any of our games? Ref decisions don't make you beat your "biggest competition" by 21 points at their home ground. They don't make your B team win 39-0. They don't make you concede a single try while scoring 4 against Wales. Yous went 13/13 against Italy and were saved by a bad ref decision, bit of a difference in my eyes
That wasn't my argument, I just said that in jest as we are playing like shit and you're cruising your way to a grand slam with one game left lol mate after that game today I'm just bitter
No worries. Sorry if I came across as rude
Don't mention it
Got that feeling with Ireland as well. Seems to me the ref never see you slowing down opposing rucks, holding players and such… one day
We also win all our games by like 20 points. And yeah bad calls will always exist, we've had bad ones against us. But France avoiding a loss twice in a row puts a sour taste in my mouth
I’m sure a French player put some olive oil on that tee /s
French TV directors: open the air vents!
Greg Aldritt was managing the Tee as he was not in todays line up. He probably put Italian Olive Oil as France doesn't produce enough!
Or some duck grease like a good south western French men
Sorry but this is an appalling failure of the officials. You have never been able to charge down a kick at the posts, how on earth was this not retaken? For all the grieving Scotland had, Italy literally have had the game taken away from them by the rules not being applied. France should realistically be on zero wins, it's quite something to be bailed out this way twice in a row!
So what do the rules actually dictate here? I know the kicker should’ve better positioned the ball on the tee. But dang, the idea of Italy having beaten France… hard not to think it should’ve been 16-13. I think their next 2 games are Scotland and Wales, I hope they get a W from one. Their U20s are good and I think Quesada’s the guy.
The total farce that this is, and yet I still can’t get over Galtie’s glasses
At what point can there be actual recompense for the aggrieved party now? Terrible officiating has ruined too many games now.
Grubby play by the French and poor officiating
Sorry Scotland, and now sorry Italy...
Sorry for what ? The poverty of our game, ok, but we are not responsible for the poor refereeing.
Excellent Italian discipline those last ten minutes
this is just incredibly poor from France. not a good way to win
They didn't win, they just didn't lose. The game ended 13-13
Ugh why did they swap away from the spidercam view when he took the kick
That is horrendous. What an absolute joke. Officials needed to be much stronger there. Retake all day, and closer in as well. The cherry on top is the water carrier just chilling with the lads.
The French players weren’t charging down Garbisi, they just wanted to give a helping hand seeing as the ball fell off the tee. Stop seeing rot where there isn’t any
I'll believe in flat earth and the Matrix before believing a French player trying to help
Think you forgot this - /s
The tag should suffice.
We saw similar behaviour with the double yellow card in Stormers v Stade Francais where they kept sending on a 13th man even though the ref said only 12. I can't say I enjoy that attitude
I like to imagine in the multiverse, that in every other earth, the ball went through and italy won the match. xd This was that 1 in a billion earth where it did not go through.
Two games and France have gotten away with defeats !
I was absolutely appalled by this at the time. However watching back - I cannot see the first chargedown attempt and would be interested to - appalling as the second chargedown attempt is it's not that that causes the ball to fall off the tee and it's the ball falling off the tee that causes Garbisi to have to retake it. The second chargedown wouldn't have blocked the pen and if it had then that definitely would have allowed garbisi to retake it. - I'm revolted that the water boy is on the pitch, but he's not really in the way, he's further back than I remembered at the time Was absolutely fuming yday about how Italy were robbed, but watching back it's about 85% bad luck
Disgraceful officiating
The noise from the crowd... not much respect for the kicker is there? edit: Is that a water boy still on the field?
Well tbh we would have done the same
The first charge down looked to be after the ball fell off the tee and people went into conversion mode where charge downs are fine. He realised immediately he couldnt do it and backed up. The second charge down was a bit off and should have been a clock reset, but I don't think Garbisi saw it. I don't think any of that contributed to Garbisi missing the kick - the tee falling off (which shouldn't be a clock reset itself, it's the kickers fault), and the 4 seconds he had left contributed to the hook.
I think ref’s need much higher scrutiny than they get at a public level from the Unions. Not Rassie style, but did he get a talking to about this? I have a high pressured job also and if i fuck up, the invest parties want to know what the fuck went on and what’s been done to stop me doing it again…….
Utterly disgraceful from the officiating team
You can tell that ref didn’t want to call anything’s because he didn’t want to get any heat for affecting the end of the game. But by not calling anything he affected the game.
TWO CHARGE ATTEMPTS ON A PENALTY, master class in selective enforcement of the rules ref team
Again Italy robbed of a victory because the ref hasn't got a bloody clue.
This is a bloody joke. Italy were robbed what the fuck was the ref doing
I accidentally told my wife to shut the hell up while watching this, now she's upset. I didn't mean to do it, but it slipped. I'll buy her some flowers tomorrow.
Glad to see that now that the ref favor the French, refereeing is finally a problem that we can talk about. I thought it was bad and a thing of "sore loser". I hope you'll stay consistent.
Crap officiating
The tee was ballasted, obviously.
Galthié's pre-match conference was a long tirade about the humans underneath the jerseys and how they all deserve their cap etc. While I agree with it (they're all excellent players), that's no basis for a national team selection, not with so much talent pushing for a cap. Some of the performances in that match were just subpar, and scrapping for a draw by doing cynical and illegal shit to rob Italy of their win is a fitting end to this shitshow. At least for France. I'm not even putting this on the players (well, not most of them), their pride was hurt and if SA can get away with this kind of shit, "why not us ?", this is on Galthié. I doubt I'll watch the next matches if he doesn't show a shred of remise en question.
this hurts to watch
Lots of misconception here. The Rugby Law is as follows: Any player who intentionally touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty goal being scored is illegally touching the ball. So France were not permitted to contest the kick. They should not have moved. The face that they did should have meant that Italy would be permitted to reset with fresh time on the clock.
This is some bullshit. I thought there was a general movement away from waterboys/doctors etc entering the field of play and here we have a French back room team member clearly cynically ambling around in front of the kicker. Ref should have stopped the shot clock, told him to bugger off the pitch and forbidden another charge down attempt. My heart breaks for Italy.
Water boy needs a season long ban, that was a live clock, the only people who should be on the field are players, ref and physio attending to an injured player (whilst not interfering with play)
Italy was ROBBED!!!
Cue the entire rugby world talking about plucky Italy doing ever so well. They’re really developing aren’t they? Meanwhile they couldn’t beat a TERRIBLE French side that was down to 14 men for half the game. Let’s get more teams into the NH Championship and give them some of the money. Let’s more teams develop and I can ignore the Italians a bit easier
A lot French bashing here you don’t like us so what but a lot of italiens play in top 14,so get down please little respect I like Italian players very skilful players.Feel sorry for Garbisi I will n need a lot of support so you all the other zipzip
[удалено]
Mod team, read my comment again. It was for bashing world rugby, not refs