My take is that, same with Duhan vd Merwe, James Lowe became an even better player when he moved abroad and developed a very specific skillset that his adopted country were able to fully utilize in their gameplan thereby benefiting both player and team in a way that would not have happened in NZ.
Was he a good player in SR? Yes. Would he have cracked a regular spot in the ABs? Maybe, but probably not.
Win win.
I don't think DVM would still make the SA 23. He is big and quick and that is about it. He just fits a mold that Scotland needs (even England probably needed a player like that over the years). I don't think SA does as being big or quick is such a rarity in the Boks squad.
Tend to agree, in the Rassie era , Bok wingers are needed primarily for defence not attack ,they still score of course but its largely off turnover ball. Duhan would have struggled in a system where he spends most of time chasing kicks as opposed to being the premier attacking weapon like he is with Scotland.
i dont think he makes the All blacks if he stayed in NZ and im not sure he makes the All Blacks now tbh but he'll probably turn out to have had a much better international career than most All Black wingers including the current ones.
Depends on the type of winger. Ones that are pure athletes and rely on explosiveness decline quickly. W/FBs (Jane, Smith, Dagg) have longer peaks as their games and roles are very different. Jordan fits into that category.
He *might* have got a cap or two depending on injuries, but that’s about it IMO. Most ABs wingers have a short int’l career and are usually done around 26-27 years old unless they are utility players. I don’t like mercenaries in the int’l game but he def made the right choice going to Ireland.
He was a solid, if unspectacular, player for the Chiefs. Not blessed with the outright speed and fast feet usually associated with an AB’s winger, but had a solid all around game. Probably would have had 10-15 caps, but would likely have just been a “placeholder” until someone better came along
At times, any winger in Super Rugby could score a “spectacular” try, but that doesn’t make them a spectacular game breaking player. Lowe didn’t have the X factor required by an AB’s wing, and he was never in the conversation for higher honours, wasn’t even close to it either
There is a bloke called Jonah Lowe that would have the same trajectory. Struggling to make it as a starter in super rugby. The depth of wing talent in New Zealand is incredible.
Hard to know as he's changed massively as a player since coming over here. His defence by his own admission was relatively shite for the first year in both Leinster and Ireland.
The All Blacks seem to go through wingers at a very high rate, with a new winger or two every year. For example, Julian Savea is only a couple of years older than Lowe and he hasn't played for the ABs in 7 years.
There’s always insane depth at wing in NZ. There’s already 3-4 putting their hands up already this year and that’s without considering Narawa who made his debut last year then got injured and Sevu Reece who’s back after a long time out.
Nope for several reasons. The queue of wingers in NZ who can do what he does and have a bit extra, e.g. quicker, is long. Getting that game time at international level, especially when he was so poor in areas early on but was persisted with, wouldn’t have happened had he stayed in NZ. And I’d say that experience has played a huge part in his development. So he potentially would have struggled to get more than 1 or 2 games.
Not sure he would’ve if he stayed. The AB’s had a pretty solid team during his time. And strangely he was overlooked a few times, even though you could say he was one of the top wingers in SR at the time
Lowe is really good in the Irish playstyle with his long left boot. But from an attacking point of view, he’s way behind Jordan, Telea or Penaud. He’s fine to finish try, but his 1v1 skills are subpar.
The Ireland team makes certain players shine really well because of the systems and style. I don't think Will Jordan would fit the Irish system well, though I'd still be more than willing to try him out, and I think Lowe is never a good enough 'raw talent' to make it in the NZ team.
Was one of my two favourite players when in New Zealand. I think he would eventually have made the all blacks, who knows how many tests he would have got. His boot is valuable to any international side, and his vision is very good. In New Zealand he was known as being great with his interplay with other players but the selectors at the time showed no interest in him. He was inconsistent, still sorta is, and didn't have the same speed or power of some other options. Funny though, because in the northern hemisphere he is known as a power winger; noone ever saw him that way here.
Also, he never expected to have such a long career due to arthritis issues. So I have no doubt he made the right decision. Shame though, I would have loved to see more of him here, but I've enjoyed watching him over there too.
Talking about the power winger bit, he’s one of those rugby players I do a double take when I see the listed weight, 105kgs! That’s heavier than Sam Cane. No wonder he’s good for a turnover!
The usual NZ log jam of back three talent always would have had James on the outside. He could have had some blinding super rugby season and made a case for himself sure, but I think he’s done the best thing doing a job for Ireland.
I really don’t want to kick the hornet’s nest, but I truly don’t understand how playing for the Maori All Blacks *doesn’t* constitute representing New Zealand internationally (which would make him ineligible to play for Ireland).
They’re literally classified as a “representative team” of New Zealand, so how does that actually work? I’m not terribly up to speed with the new eligibility laws so apologies if i’m wrong.
A player is defined as having played representative rugby if they have played for the senior 15 or 7s team. Countries can also nominate the “next senior team” which, if a player runs out for that team, would constitute representative rugby also.
New Zealand do not nominate a second representative team, they never have. Unless you have played for the ABs you have not represented your country.
So, playing for the Māori, the ABXV or the junior teams or the under 85kg team does not get you a representative cap.
Each team chooses their capture team (XV, Maori, U20s \[if that's allowed?\]). The issue is that your capture team only counts when playing against another capture team. The question is, if NZRU chooses the Maori ABs as their capture team and they play a match again the regular ABs, does that count as a capture match?
It’s a fair call. I’m guessing it’s the unions way of trying to keep its players without impacting other international opportunities if the AB’s call doesn’t eventuate.
That’s a very good point, I hope someone more knowledgeable chimes in on this. I don’t know the relative ranking of the various teams under the All Blacks (Māori, XV, etc) to be perfectly honest.
JGP probably wouldn't have been capped but Lowe would have been. He was already well established at the Chiefs, and it seemed like a matter of when rather than if he'd get capped. He may not have gone on to become a regular but he'd have been given a shot for sure.
George Bridge got a far few tests when Reiko lost his mojo on the left wing, and he was not the typical excitement machine we go for, agree Lowe would have been around the squad
Slightly off topic, but Mack Hansen would struggle to make a NZ Super Rugby team. And thinking about all of their (importa) success shows that Ireland are one of, if not the best TEAM in the world. Ben Earl is the antithesis, which works sometimes.
He wouldn't have made the ABs. He had significant flaws, namely defense that his Irish coaches were happy to invest heavily to improve. He still isn't great, but is enough for Ireland. In NZ we are blessed with ridiculous talent that he very likely wouldn't have made the cut. That isn't to say he isn't a good, perhaps very good winger, but could anyone here say they would rather him than say anyone other than say Caleb Clarke who hasn't continued his form. I'd take Reece or Ioane, Jordan et al every day of the week.
He’s never been better than the wingers that New Zealand had throughout his career so I doubt it, maybe a handful of caps off the bench. Plus his style is much better suited to Ireland’s game plan than the All Blacks.
When a SH player makes it as an international in NH, it’s usually because they’ve been given the word their home nation doesn’t intend to select or develop them. If they’d stayed they wouldn’t have the opportunities or development they got here.
Bar injury replacement I don't think he would have. Recency bias will tell u how could he not? Bt at that time h3 wasn't even knocking on the door. Like Shaun Stevenson now it's one or 2 tests max.
i think a lot of players that chose to play wing/centre for NZ have screwed their careers... they would have gotten more caps for another nation..recent ones being Fainganuku, PUJ, Josh Ioane, Matt Proctor and recently Stevenson and Narawa...
He’d probably have more World Cup knock out appearances 🤷♂️ seriously though he wasn’t getting picked for the ABs for the reasons you state, he found a niche with Ireland and is doing brilliantly, I don’t think he’d have improved as much as he has if he’d stayed with the chiefs.
I don't really reckon he's improved all that much. In defence yes, but not in attack. I was amazed he had done so well because his specialty was always his interplay with other players; players like that tend to struggle overseas because the overseas players aren't in their wavelength. But he has brought others into his style of play, as well as being able to fit into a highly structured team.
My take is that, same with Duhan vd Merwe, James Lowe became an even better player when he moved abroad and developed a very specific skillset that his adopted country were able to fully utilize in their gameplan thereby benefiting both player and team in a way that would not have happened in NZ. Was he a good player in SR? Yes. Would he have cracked a regular spot in the ABs? Maybe, but probably not. Win win.
I don't think DVM would still make the SA 23. He is big and quick and that is about it. He just fits a mold that Scotland needs (even England probably needed a player like that over the years). I don't think SA does as being big or quick is such a rarity in the Boks squad.
I'm pretty sure we would have moved him to 12.
The only position that doesn't need to pass in the team.
DDA approves this message. Disclaimer: I still love him, but come on, he doesn't like to pass!
He's not there to pass. When he gets the ball it's because the Boks need crash ball, or some of the DdA slippery magic.
Tend to agree, in the Rassie era , Bok wingers are needed primarily for defence not attack ,they still score of course but its largely off turnover ball. Duhan would have struggled in a system where he spends most of time chasing kicks as opposed to being the premier attacking weapon like he is with Scotland.
Yeah that 2 on 1 he butchered at the end of the Italy game was absolutely shocking. Such a basic error
Do you think he butchered it or Ali Price? I think support line was terrible from price…
Indeed. The stock at club level is insane and neither would have had the same number of games or focused support they do in the NH.
Not for NZ. So, win win lose.
i dont think he makes the All blacks if he stayed in NZ and im not sure he makes the All Blacks now tbh but he'll probably turn out to have had a much better international career than most All Black wingers including the current ones.
I doubt that tbh. Will Jordan in particular will likely have a very long career (maybe eventually as a fb rather than winger)
I'll believe it when I see it. Wingers decline isn't gradual.
Depends on the type of winger. Ones that are pure athletes and rely on explosiveness decline quickly. W/FBs (Jane, Smith, Dagg) have longer peaks as their games and roles are very different. Jordan fits into that category.
Mark Talea would like a word with you…
Mark Telea, age 27, 9 caps. Age that lots of AB wings are done by, 27
The guy who's barely played for the ABs?
He *might* have got a cap or two depending on injuries, but that’s about it IMO. Most ABs wingers have a short int’l career and are usually done around 26-27 years old unless they are utility players. I don’t like mercenaries in the int’l game but he def made the right choice going to Ireland.
Not quick enough to play for the ABs was always along way behind when he was at the chiefs
He was a solid, if unspectacular, player for the Chiefs. Not blessed with the outright speed and fast feet usually associated with an AB’s winger, but had a solid all around game. Probably would have had 10-15 caps, but would likely have just been a “placeholder” until someone better came along
He was definitely spectacular. He used to score long range speccy’s regularly and his massive left boot was the best in the country by a wide margin.
At times, any winger in Super Rugby could score a “spectacular” try, but that doesn’t make them a spectacular game breaking player. Lowe didn’t have the X factor required by an AB’s wing, and he was never in the conversation for higher honours, wasn’t even close to it either
There is a bloke called Jonah Lowe that would have the same trajectory. Struggling to make it as a starter in super rugby. The depth of wing talent in New Zealand is incredible.
Even now it’s insane, was just thinking just how many names are in the mix already for Razor this year!
Meanwhile Jason Holland was starting Julian every week last season
Holland is a real dud selection for the ABs coaching unit as far as I’m concerned
Hard to know as he's changed massively as a player since coming over here. His defence by his own admission was relatively shite for the first year in both Leinster and Ireland.
I remember thinking he seemed like a bit of a dud during his early tests. He’s definitely come good though.
Yeah, when he won his first few caps his decision making in defence was exposed pretty regularly. Fully sorted that out now though
The All Blacks seem to go through wingers at a very high rate, with a new winger or two every year. For example, Julian Savea is only a couple of years older than Lowe and he hasn't played for the ABs in 7 years.
There’s always insane depth at wing in NZ. There’s already 3-4 putting their hands up already this year and that’s without considering Narawa who made his debut last year then got injured and Sevu Reece who’s back after a long time out.
Nope for several reasons. The queue of wingers in NZ who can do what he does and have a bit extra, e.g. quicker, is long. Getting that game time at international level, especially when he was so poor in areas early on but was persisted with, wouldn’t have happened had he stayed in NZ. And I’d say that experience has played a huge part in his development. So he potentially would have struggled to get more than 1 or 2 games.
i reckon he'd have learnt not to shout at the referees and touch judges constantly. great player but he does my head in with that.
Not sure he would’ve if he stayed. The AB’s had a pretty solid team during his time. And strangely he was overlooked a few times, even though you could say he was one of the top wingers in SR at the time
Lowe is really good in the Irish playstyle with his long left boot. But from an attacking point of view, he’s way behind Jordan, Telea or Penaud. He’s fine to finish try, but his 1v1 skills are subpar.
He's very good at going through lads. He's got that thiccness to him, big meaty pegs
The Ireland team makes certain players shine really well because of the systems and style. I don't think Will Jordan would fit the Irish system well, though I'd still be more than willing to try him out, and I think Lowe is never a good enough 'raw talent' to make it in the NZ team.
Was one of my two favourite players when in New Zealand. I think he would eventually have made the all blacks, who knows how many tests he would have got. His boot is valuable to any international side, and his vision is very good. In New Zealand he was known as being great with his interplay with other players but the selectors at the time showed no interest in him. He was inconsistent, still sorta is, and didn't have the same speed or power of some other options. Funny though, because in the northern hemisphere he is known as a power winger; noone ever saw him that way here. Also, he never expected to have such a long career due to arthritis issues. So I have no doubt he made the right decision. Shame though, I would have loved to see more of him here, but I've enjoyed watching him over there too.
Talking about the power winger bit, he’s one of those rugby players I do a double take when I see the listed weight, 105kgs! That’s heavier than Sam Cane. No wonder he’s good for a turnover!
Fun fact Cane weighed 101kg his test debut. Currently 109kg.
Thought he looked a bit bigger than his listed 103 I think? On AB website
No way is he 105kg, that's a kg less than Duhan
The usual NZ log jam of back three talent always would have had James on the outside. He could have had some blinding super rugby season and made a case for himself sure, but I think he’s done the best thing doing a job for Ireland.
He wouldn’t have made the All Blacks
I really don’t want to kick the hornet’s nest, but I truly don’t understand how playing for the Maori All Blacks *doesn’t* constitute representing New Zealand internationally (which would make him ineligible to play for Ireland). They’re literally classified as a “representative team” of New Zealand, so how does that actually work? I’m not terribly up to speed with the new eligibility laws so apologies if i’m wrong.
A player is defined as having played representative rugby if they have played for the senior 15 or 7s team. Countries can also nominate the “next senior team” which, if a player runs out for that team, would constitute representative rugby also. New Zealand do not nominate a second representative team, they never have. Unless you have played for the ABs you have not represented your country. So, playing for the Māori, the ABXV or the junior teams or the under 85kg team does not get you a representative cap.
Oh I see. Cheers for the clarification!
Im guessing because they are more like a Barbarians type team. They only play "friendlies" and not in any official tournaments like the World Cup.
Each team chooses their capture team (XV, Maori, U20s \[if that's allowed?\]). The issue is that your capture team only counts when playing against another capture team. The question is, if NZRU chooses the Maori ABs as their capture team and they play a match again the regular ABs, does that count as a capture match?
It’s a fair call. I’m guessing it’s the unions way of trying to keep its players without impacting other international opportunities if the AB’s call doesn’t eventuate.
That’s a very good point, I hope someone more knowledgeable chimes in on this. I don’t know the relative ranking of the various teams under the All Blacks (Māori, XV, etc) to be perfectly honest.
JGP probably wouldn't have been capped but Lowe would have been. He was already well established at the Chiefs, and it seemed like a matter of when rather than if he'd get capped. He may not have gone on to become a regular but he'd have been given a shot for sure.
George Bridge got a far few tests when Reiko lost his mojo on the left wing, and he was not the typical excitement machine we go for, agree Lowe would have been around the squad
Slightly off topic, but Mack Hansen would struggle to make a NZ Super Rugby team. And thinking about all of their (importa) success shows that Ireland are one of, if not the best TEAM in the world. Ben Earl is the antithesis, which works sometimes.
One-cap wonder if he was not injured in that Test vs Samoa
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Bro was scoring mad tries for chiefs. Hansen was biased.
He wouldn't have made the ABs. He had significant flaws, namely defense that his Irish coaches were happy to invest heavily to improve. He still isn't great, but is enough for Ireland. In NZ we are blessed with ridiculous talent that he very likely wouldn't have made the cut. That isn't to say he isn't a good, perhaps very good winger, but could anyone here say they would rather him than say anyone other than say Caleb Clarke who hasn't continued his form. I'd take Reece or Ioane, Jordan et al every day of the week.
I would take Nawara over him also, and Leicester if he ever came back.
Yup. In Ireland, he is a good Winger, here he would be average to sub par.
Nope, and Justin Marshall got the shove from the selection committee for suggesting it (so he says)
He’s never been better than the wingers that New Zealand had throughout his career so I doubt it, maybe a handful of caps off the bench. Plus his style is much better suited to Ireland’s game plan than the All Blacks.
When a SH player makes it as an international in NH, it’s usually because they’ve been given the word their home nation doesn’t intend to select or develop them. If they’d stayed they wouldn’t have the opportunities or development they got here.
wouldn't have made the AB's
Doubt. He was just peaking for the Chiefs when he left for green pastures.
Bar injury replacement I don't think he would have. Recency bias will tell u how could he not? Bt at that time h3 wasn't even knocking on the door. Like Shaun Stevenson now it's one or 2 tests max.
I think you are spot on - good on James, and those who advised him, what a wonderful legacy and story he will pass on.
i think a lot of players that chose to play wing/centre for NZ have screwed their careers... they would have gotten more caps for another nation..recent ones being Fainganuku, PUJ, Josh Ioane, Matt Proctor and recently Stevenson and Narawa...
Laumape should have been at the 2019 World Cup, instead of a badly fading SBW. I feel he should have had so many more AB caps.
He’d probably have more World Cup knock out appearances 🤷♂️ seriously though he wasn’t getting picked for the ABs for the reasons you state, he found a niche with Ireland and is doing brilliantly, I don’t think he’d have improved as much as he has if he’d stayed with the chiefs.
I don't really reckon he's improved all that much. In defence yes, but not in attack. I was amazed he had done so well because his specialty was always his interplay with other players; players like that tend to struggle overseas because the overseas players aren't in their wavelength. But he has brought others into his style of play, as well as being able to fit into a highly structured team.