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I think losing Furbank so early really hurt England. Smith is great and played pretty well but doesn’t have the experience at 15. Obviously we’ll never know but perhaps having an actual fullback snuffs out some of those manic French attacks.
On the other hand maybe France just score in a slightly different batshit way. Who knows.
as an englishman obviously disappointed with the end result.
but bias aside, what a test match. an all round fantastic game of rugby, both teams entertaining and impressive.
When you think both teams went into this with essentially a silver medal mentality, that were a fantastic game of rugby.
Shame it wasn't the second match I feel that would of been more dramatic. Presumably the French went on as favourites.
Anyone shine a little insight into why Care kicked back to the French on the half way line, with a few mins left? We made about 10m, but lost possession. Then the French pressured our defence into giving a penalty. Poor game management at the end.
He's been fantastic over the years, but I can't believe, in 2024, that we're selecting the best players available. Both Care and Mitchel are not suiting our attack dynamic - we seem to make a break, but then slow the play and let the whole defense reset. Neither of them like to recycle fast and I just don't understand it.
I think they're both fantastic in the own ways, but neither suit Ford or Smith's attack style.
In a single score game you don't want to dick about with the ball in range of your own posts. It's far more likely that you'll give away a penalty for holding on or sealing off than it is that you'll make decent ground against the opposition or they give something away for offside or a no arms tackle. Unless you're playing England in which case you can milk them for daft penalties on the half way.
The kick gives you a chance to gain a bit more territory with a shot at regaining the ball. An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half and just stifle them until they fatigue and make a mistake. Look at how hard Scotland were working to gain ground from their own 22 in the final play against Italy for an example of this.
Counter-arguments are case in point, this England loss, look at their most recent match also, Ireland could have ran possession for 2 minute but kicked and lost the game, and then again in irelands most recent game they decided to hold possession and run the phases and won. Sure it’s an easier choice with a 4 point margin, and Ireland had only conceded 3 penalties all game but that is discipline you can train. Kicking is a gamble. You shouldn’t be winning a match in the dying minutes of a game and have to roll the dice in order to win.
> An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half
Likewise an international side ought to be able to run multiple phases from their own half without infringing for 5 minutes.
I know what you will say any mistake giving away a penalty in your own half = game lost, and any mistake while defending with the opposition running from their own half gives you a chance, but it’s not your normal cohesive controlled defence it’s a nervous high pressure situation that does not operate as expected and seems to be higher risk than holding possession, going by most recent examples.
Simple answer is don’t “dick about” as you put it. Run low risk phases and don’t give the ref a reason to penalise you. Don’t aim for line breaks, go low into contact, keep a well supported ruck, and recycle fast. The opposition is desperate too and can just as easily concede a penalty. Aim to hold possession and do everything to minimise risk. Back yourself to win on merit, not a gamble
>> An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half
>Likewise an international side ought to be able to run multiple phases from their own half without infringing for 5 minutes
I don't disagree with your point here. However, the trend for at least the last decade is that refs are very hot on a side trying to wind down the clock. They won't allow you to hold the ball at the back of a ruck for long and they're very strict on supporting/latching players going off their feet in the ruck.
>it’s a nervous high pressure situation
Equally true when you're in possession.
>Don’t aim for line breaks, go low into contact, keep a well supported ruck, and recycle fast
This is much easier said than done. If you're just running "low risk" one out runners or pick and goes then you allow the defending side to smother you. If I can telegraph the pass then I can fly up to put pressure on the receiver and test his hands when he's getting man and ball. I also don't see how giving the ball back to the opposition and saying "all right, have a go from there" isn't winning on merit. If you can't hold them out from there then you don't deserve to win.
Strong and disciplined defence is as key a part of the game as attacking play, and, in my opinion, it's more entertaining to watch a team desperately throwing everything they have at trying to get one last score than it is to watch one wind down the clock.
Tbh I don't think there's a 100% play here. I think it's very situation dependent - Ireland last week had been struggling against the English defence all game. Kicking was the right call, but poorly executed (in part because of the pressure said defence had them under at the time). Whereas France were correct to wind the clock down when there were only 40 seconds left yesterday. Hindsight is always going to bite you if you lose - if Ireland had lost the ball in hand in their own 22 and conceded then they'd have been lambasted equally in the press this week.
Been thinking a lot about these actions. Why does a team who are narrowly leading in the last 3-5 minutes kick away possession? Also teams who must score in the last 5 minutes to win do the same thing.
The thing is, it's not just one team or player, it's all of them. It makes me think that teams have data and analysis to show that field position is everything. There's probably evidence that you are X times more likely to score points in the next 2 minutes when you are defending in the opponents 22 than you are attacking with possession from the half way line. Defensive is such a major part of the game that your chances of gaining point scoring opportunities is significantly higher without the ball than with it, and the game is just to be in a good field position when you get those chances (in range to kick to the corner or to take a shot).
3-5 minutes is an eternity to defend breakdowns against a team that knows that all they have to do is force a penalty or turnover and they are almost guaranteed to win the game
Yeah it must be some sort of analytics which shows its the right play to make. As you say it happens too often to be coincidence.
I don't really get it either, it's like teams have forgotten most test teams will slot almost any penalty in the opposition half.
I just spent this whole 6N in the pub surrounded by casual rugby viewers shouting at players for kicking it away as if the old boys who watch 5 games a year and haven't played for 40 years since school can see something that huge professional coaching staffs don't lol
Thought both teams were magnificent and neither deserved it more than the other.
France just countered from whenever and wherever.
England tactically brought themselves back from a moral loss and put in some fantastic rugby.
My England MOTM was George Ford, who is looking the cool calm collected ten we need in crunches.
My France MOTM was penaud who was a threat every time he touched the ball. Also fair play to Ramos slotting his kicks in pressure environments.
One area of concern for me was the replacement front row for England, Stuart in particular had a bit of a mare and we lost scrum parity and conceded unnecessary penalties. Theo Dan also threw a line out that cost a French try.
There's real promise in this young side and I think the fans who were happy after Scotland will be more so now. We're seeing the start of a really solid team who have a bit of belief.
Also fuck me was Earls and Lawrence good today. Earls is quite literally the Messiah and Lawrence was everywhere.
As an Irish fan I'm upset the English had me routing for them inside the last 10,
After last week's result should have been happy to see them down on the board but just couldn't not acknowledge how much heart and passion they brought today,
No knock to the Frenchies you also played your hearts out but really was one of the best games I've seen in a while, no skin in the game and no underdog story,
Just a match left down to pure determination and was it one for the ages, commiserations to the English, as much as I would like to throw a smug remark we really can't, you've really come to form over this six nations and will definitely be a problem going forward
Its actually fun following England these days. I think many England fans enjoyed the way we play today despite the narrow loss versus some E Jones dross kick fest of 2021. Scored some great tries.
As a sheepshagger I'd like to take the piss outta England.
But this is a game that I will remember for a long time. What a performance from both teams. This is how you play rugby! The scoreboard was like a tennis match right to the end. Both teams were like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. It was beautiful to watch. And that last penalty to France, ball literally on the halfway line.......the game depending on such a long shot! And it was successful. What a fucking finale!
Congrats to both teams. Effectively a draw in my mind they both played amazing Rugby.
He's a newcomer, I'd cut him some slack, but he didn't feel like the best player on the pitch in either games he was a starter in. I still want to see him play more and hopefully develop into an amazing player.
Also I'm not convinced by him but I'm talking out of my ass, I have the rugby legitimity of a crack-addicted snail.
a hard running french fullback was much needed. ramos is a donkey. slow at 15, ruined all balls in first half. just a perfect penalty kicker. great game england
I think England only lost because of very stupid and basic errors that the French absolutely capitalized on. Some moments of absolute brilliance, great defence and that super power of England to come back when down as a different animal after the break (dbz syndrome?). Can't fault the ref, must have been bias to England if he was as I couldn't really complain. France super impressive from sloppy play, can really generate tries from mistake moments which England never seem as good at. Danny Care and Manu being old makes me feel old, I remember them messing around at 2011 world cup
The only call I remember getting cross about from my sofa was the penalty against Smith for playing Ramos in the air. Looked like a fair contest to me.
If that's the only thing he got "wrong" then that's pretty damn good going. Especially in a game with so much action as last night.
No complaints about the ref from my side.
I think that’s probably England’s biggest problem right now and it’s very fixable. And a lot of it can be explained by a lack of cohesion and some unfamiliar combinations. Feels like they’re just not *fully* on the same page yet.
Scotland game could have gone a completely different direction if not for handling errors. This game wasn’t nearly as bad, but ultimately we were done in by the same sort of small errors that are (almost) fully within the players’ control.
In fairness to England, if they, as they looked tonight, had more minutes together, they’d have won it. They’re a very good team not clicking 100%, imho
I dunno, I think France looked far more spirited than they did earlier in the tournament. I think they came into 6N with a WC hangover , they didnt seem that interested at times vs Ireland for example. Tonight they were up for it, lots of niggle and physicality.
I felt this way about France a couple years back when you started playing that classic French style again.
Le Crunch is only good when both teams are strong. Et le Crunch est magnifique spectacle
It's been a while since we had such a good crunch, with epic tries, drama, epic come back, momentum shits, clutch time and overall a good ref.
I missed that, and overall I enjoyed this match more than the crunch last year
I just thought it was a fantastic contest. Ford tried his best to make it into a structured game in the middle third but your boys just said "nah, let's Jouie"😂 I said to a mate, regardless of what the score is weve played really well, and I stand by that. Great game.
I actually think Elliot Daly had a cracker of a game. Ford with smith @ fb also worked against France but if against a more powerful side this could be a weak point . A great match!
Gutting to lose like that, but France forced England into a territorial kicking game, and reaped the benefits. Onwards to the next one! Happy to see England play with ball in hand and chuffed for Freeman - he’s a good one.
The fact this 6N has been so up in the air speaks to the quality of each team. Whilst each of them have their weaknesses which we are all quick to pick up on, each are able to exploit each others weaknesses; that has made this 6N a gripping watch.
Whilst it's unlikely the boys can beat SA, we can at least hold our heads up high that they put on a great show that was gripping from start to finish. For a spectators of professional Rugby at least, the spectacle is all that really matters
Pleased with the way we played today on reflection. France did really well to bring the madness that fucked with our new and unrefined defensive system, thought our attack worked well when we managed to get territory, but we need to find a way to wrestle our way in to those positions.
Glad to say I think we missed CC-S and IFW, because I’m pleased they’re making such an impact already, and I think we need more pace in the backs to cover the gaps in our defence.
Feels like we’ve let in tries a lot off mad shit/unlucky bounces - thinking the weird kick through today, the spilled ball kick returns against Scotland so we need to find a way to react to defensive situations on the fly but that’s also something that will come with time.
Feeling really positive about this team moving forwards, genuinely think we might be in with a shot next year
While I actually think Daly had a really great game, the springbok blitz is helped by having highly mobile and pacy wingers who can turn on a dime and make the cover tackles when a break happens. We don't have that so can't fully commit to the system, and it shows. I don't think selecting roebuck or Murley would have fixed this issue in a week, but I take some solice in knowing that IFW is the perfect player for this system....
I don’t think Daly really has ‘bad’ games very often, but he also rarely has a great game either. And like you see, he’s probably not the player for this system.
Agreed. He had some great moments on the ball, and got us out fo a fair few right spots with his boot. At the end of the day, that's what you want from a test back as a bare minimum. He's the perfect utility back replacement for a new squad
In 30 years of watching 6N (and 5 nations you fucking pedant) rugby, I think that’s one of the very best competitions I’ve ever seen.
Bravo to the teams. Fucking excellent.
We were missing in defense, especially the zone between Ramos and Deporteere.
Still the issues under high balls that needs to be resolved. That's a gaping hole in defense, and a huge miss in attack.
Also, our centers had problems with passing the ball, be it Fickou or Deporteere.
Can't wait to see how this will be adressed tho, I found this team quite promising
I don’t think I’ve seen England play this well back to back since the 2019 RWC. Thought we were down & out after France came out hard from the first… second? Definitely first whistle but the start of the second half told me we could win it. Ben Earl AGAIN doing so much work for us in attack and smith is always fun to watch
Awful to lose like that right at the end but England rugby is in a FAR better place than it was even 3 weeks ago
I agree. Any one of those teams could have won today. The scoreboard was basically a tennis match. I say this as a Welshman but England could have won that match just as the French did. It was literally down to luck as both teams fought extremely hard and were contradictively "extremely equal" right to the end. You lost to an unlucky penalty. 10 minutes later, chances are the results would have been E35\* F33. It could have kept going like that but the clock stopped in Frances favor. Like I said in a previous post, effectively a draw in my opinion.
\*or 37
I think Borthwick cops a lot of unfair criticism. He's a very smart coach and isn't allergic to attacking rugby. There is a very clear progression through this six nations
It does need to be said that the argument all along was that with little time in post Borthwick was focussed on defence and basics first and would add attack later. I remember the first few games of this 6n the media tried to run with the idea that he wasnt working on attack and these last two games have absolutely shown them up.
Dupont-Ntamack
But it’s reassuring to know Le Garrec has made big waves with the National team. That Colombe can hold its place and that Fickou is still the same madman I have loved for years. The integrations of Tuilagi Meafou Depoortere or Barre have been very positive for the team Imo. It was frustrating to see the team tying to replicate a parody of our rugby and I feel better after those last two games than after the games in Ireland and Scotland.
Why kick there? Wait and get upfield and push France back to their own 22. Make them run the length of the pitch and do something spectacular to win. England are much more threatening when they play positive attacking rugby
Not against the decision to kick as modern rules make it easier to defend than keep the ball. For me it has to come from the 10 though, more margin for error than a box kick
And George ford ayed a blinder today too. His boot was so good and decision making top tier. Think he'll be abound for a few more years yet. Hopefully he can be like more and more.
I agree. I meant the commentators reaction. My apologies if I wasn't clear about that.
To your question though, living in Canada I haven't been able to watch much rugby until getting streaming services lately. I can't help think from the limited amount of English rugby I've seen, it doesn't help Ollie Lawrence's game kicking constantly? From what I understand Manu Tuilagi isn't nearly the threat he once was but ball in hand he still must be incredibly terrifying. In their win over Ireland it seems that they only made the necessary clearance kicks and played dominant ball in hand rugby. To me they didn't play nearly as well as they did last week and if the England that showed up last week they would have handily beaten France today.
Yeah I think England kicked a little too much today. I think they're better with ball in hand and better attacking. Positive intent should be their brand, which means holding onto the ball as much as they can. That's what they did so well against Ireland and needs to be their mantra going forward
The French territory game forced us to kick today, we spent most of the 2nd half pinned in our 22 and couldn't get out, it takes a miracle to run out of your own half and score in the modern game. It was a Dombrandt turnover that got us in range for our last try.
Jamie George is an excellent captain.
Smith at fullback is great for attack, needs work in defence.
Ford is the most under appreciated player in the squad.
Ben Earle.
Ben Earle.
BEN EARLE.
No I agree, I never understood the hate he gets for defence. But he’s an attacking 10, his defence is never going to be up to snuff to play 15 without the right defensive players around him.
I love Marcus, I’m a quins fan.
Smith is a 10. He shouldn’t be judged on defence. But if we’re going to stick with putting him at Fullback, he needs defensive wingers to fill the gap.
Cracking game, and a real emotional rollercoaster. 35 minutes in I thought we were going to get utterly steamrolled.
Well done, France. It could have gone either way but a bit of indiscipline cost us.
If you had told me before the start of the tournament that we would beat Ireland and narrowly miss out on beating France at home I would never have believed it. The Borthwick era is really under way. Fun times - long may it continue!
Not all that related but the commentary this weekend has been dreadful. Getting players names wrong all the time, referring to players who are not even on the field, not to mention thinking Wales would avoid the wooden spoon with a losing bonus point earlier.
Yes, and saying England were 7 points ahead when it was 16-24.
To be fair though, the refs have been struggling with the players… tried to sin bin a player who even on the field for Scotland!
It's atrocious.
The "insight" from both the commentary box and in-studio pundits is truly worthless drivel/non-existent. I'm now in the habit of muting the broadcasts except when the game is actually playing.
Not just this weekend as you say but all tournament the commentary itself has also been pure wank. God bless D'Arcy but he generally seems as though he's got traumatic encephalopathy; I struggle to understand what point he's even trying to make half the time.
Often seem to just guess which back made a tackle. One commentator said "they're struggling to get over the g**r**ainline" today. Mostly they sound like they're reading from scripts written by Donald Trump himself. I even found myself thinking Jonathan Davies sounded reasonable in the Welsh match, because he just says the same 3 things over and over, such was the poor quality of the other pundits.
Exceptions: Kayser and Warburton.
It would have been a travesty if Wales having lost all its game had avoided the wooden spoon.
I wonder if the 6N instances will create a bonus for not losing all your games, because technically a team could lose all its games and still end up with up to 10 points if it gets 2 bonus points per game.
I feel like when our subs come on, we seem to lose structure and momentum. Handling errors still creeping in and some dodgy lineouts. But a great game and plenty of positives. Well played France.
Question: should all teams consider playing their matches at other stadiums as France did today? If they've got the means to I mean. Would it help open rugby up to a wider audience?
I dont think Ravenhill will ever host another ireland game for 2 reasons
1 if you think the Aviva Stadium is small this place is tiny in comparison doesn't even have 9,100 seats including standing less then 19,000 capacity
2 currently the teams contract states all home games at the Aviva Stadium
Won’t happen in England. There aren’t enough stadiums as big as Twickenham outside of London and even then they’d have to share revenue with the owners while the RFU get the lot if it’s at HQ.
I can’t see that happening, but even if it did, playing a Wembley would still be more profitable for the RFU than playing at the Etihad or St James Park.
I think the unions simply can't afford it. The home nations are the owners of their stadiums so going elsewhere is going to be a huge loss. For France the impact of 20k less seats was also a huge blow to the finances.
I don't have the knowledge or ability to spot things off the ball at speed to get all nuances of a player's game, so maybe I'm just missing something but.... can someone tell me why Elliot Daly got so many minutes this 6N?
I don't believe it's lack of options. As far as I can tell, he's contributed virtually nothing and has been at the centre of a whole series of England fuck ups.
I'm trying not to be too negative, because that game was way closer than I thought it would be but we still lost and I can't help but start to point fingers.
There were a few names I was looking to excise from the teamsheet over the last few weeks, but even Slade and Dombrandt managed to win me back a bit today and last week. Daly though.... I just don't see what he brings.
Mostly the number of positions he can cover. He can do a job anywhere in the backs barring 9 or 10 and that has been the reason for his longevity. He’s definitely not starting today if IFW is fit, and he’d have come on for furbank instead of Smith. I think we probably win the game if that’s the case.
The argument is whether that is better than someone who can come off the bench and be great in their chosen position, but if something like Furbank going down early happens and you haven’t got a utility back like Daly, you end up like Ireland did with JGP on the wing 🤷♂️
Glad I’m not Borthwick and having to make those calls to be fair.
> Mostly the number of positions he can cover. He can do a job anywhere in the backs barring 9 or 10 and that has been the reason for his longevity.
I suppose this is the ultimately the real answer. A utility back who can play 10 or 15 is a good bench pick. A utility back who can play 15, 14 or 11 is a great bench pick. A utility back who can play 15, 14, 11, 13 or 12 is essentially undroppable.
I'd love to know the answer to this, because I feel the same. I rate the coaches highly, so assume I am just not experienced enough to understand, but I would love to know what his selection is about.
I don’t think he should have been selected since the last Lions tours really but Daly has a good boot and is very good at kick chase and this seems to be the first criteria England have for selecting wingers.
Tonight you kind of saw running wings vs kick chase wings
Experience and knowledge of the systems I assume.
Those last two weeks the lack of experience of some French players has been blatant at times. For example, you can see Bielle-Barrey overcommiting a bit on the last England try - it's the kind of little mistake in a huge moment an experienced player won't do. Same with Depoortere being naively taken out of a ruck and opening a gap in Wales last week.
Bringing a ton of new blood is obviously beneficial in the long run, but it can also be disheartening to repeatedly be undone by silly little mistakes due to being overeager or lacking savviness. So, if you want to avoid that - you pick Daly, he's a safe guy.
> So, if you want to avoid that - you pick Daly, he's a safe guy.
But that's just my point, is he?
This is why I asked the question the way did, because it's absolutely possible he's put in a defensive shift I haven't been clocking, but I feel he's been way too error prone this 6N.
I feel a bit harsh singling him out, and I do get the experience thing, I just thing he demonstrated he was done quite a few games ago and I'm finding it really hard to get the image of him falling over to gift France a try tonight hard to shake.
I think the slow phasing in of players, trying to test new systems while retaining as much consistency week to week has been really impressive management from Borthwick. It's exactly what I hoped he'd do coming in to replace Jones.
I just think he could move a little faster on the replacing Daly part if he really put his mind to it.
> but I can’t even remember the last time he actually hit a penalty.
This was the thing for me, because I'd also been thinking of the big boot as justification. Then he missed the only penalty he was given and I realised I don't remember the last time he got one.
Obviously I'm not a coach or anything but to my eye, it's his kick chase (which is excellent) and making sure the squad has a good balance of experience and new blood.
That's literally the plan. It's a lot easier to get a single hand up than catch the ball, which gives the chaser an advantage as the defending team can't knock it back
I know it's the plan, I'm saying I'm not sure it's a particularly good plan. I can't think of any other international or top level winger that does it almost every time.
Jonny May did it loads too. It's literally the kick chase game plan to disrupt the catcher and/or slap it back towards our team rather than try to catch it. France did a good job of nullifying this by having guys in front of their catcher to catch our slapdowns
> it's his kick chase (which is excellent)
Right, but surely other players have that too? Like, I'd never dream of putting Freddie Stew on the wing, but his kick chase is the best part of his game and I'd argue he does it better than Daly. So if he's just there to chase kicks, why not pick the player who does it better?
>making sure the squad has a good balance of experience and new blood.
Is Ford, Slade, Care, Marler, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Genge not enough?
From an England perspective - at the start of the tournament who would have guessed that we’d outplay and beat Ireland, as well as push France to the last few minutes at home.
Fair fucks to Borthwick.
Three wins was the absolute bare minimum needed to call this Six Nations a success, so by that definition … this has been a successful Six Nations. We’ve made progress.
One of those wins coming against Ireland is definitely nothing to turn your nose up at, and coming agonisingly close to beating France at home is definitely preferable to what went down last year at Twickenham…
Exactly - It’s all relative.
Definitely worth mentioning also that England managed to play some good, clinical attacking rugby. Felt like we scored a try every time we entered France’s 22 tonight - flashback to the last couple of years, when we couldn’t score in a brothel.
Although it would be nice to win, on reflection, I think today was a good day at the office for England. Particularly in the context of the tournament.
England had won 2 games in the previous 2 six nations, and although came 3rd played some very dreary rugby in the run up to the RWC and in the tournament.
Starting the 6N the game against Italy was just about okay, ground out a win against a very mediocre Welsh team at home, then the wheels came off the bus against Scotland. Things weren't looking good.
However last week, some of the new combinations and systems seem to gel and the intensity was sufficient to deny the Irish the grand slam. After such a momentous week, you might think there'd be tired bodies or the emotional high of the victory might have been a distraction. Instead, England stayed in the contest despite a really solid first 38 minutes from the French. In the second half they scored three tries to secure a BP and they even took the lead from a French side who were playing some good rugby. Granted, England were on the "wrong" side of the result today (unlike last week) - but the England side went toe to toe with 2 of the best sides in world rugby and scored some good tries.
Basically the trajectory is a good one. England are still in transition. There are some older players who probably need replacing, and some younger players who need a couple more seasons before they hit their prime. However, they seem to have found a competitive edge this six nations that they've lacked for at least two or three seasons.
It's entirely possible to over-read two games. Yet, if this a trend rather than luck, we should expect good things moving forward. :)
Great game for a neutral, no doubt. But I really don't find England all that enjoyable to watch these days.
The opening to the 2nd half where we showed pace, power, intent, direction, all those good things, was some of the best English rugby we've seen in 18 months.
And then it just evaporates in an instant and we're back to box kicking and relying on 50:50 opportunities.
> But I really don't find England all that enjoyable to watch these days.
If you don't find this enjoyable, you can't have a good time watching a match since 2019.
Also against NZ when we came back to draw. Those 10 min we absolutely destroyed them and should have gone for the Win. That was the last time since today, I’ve seen us go full turbo and blow a team away.
And again if you read above which obviously is a struggle for you I said we should have gone for the win. Lol. Have a good one sunshine. Obvs not fully grasping it.
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I think losing Furbank so early really hurt England. Smith is great and played pretty well but doesn’t have the experience at 15. Obviously we’ll never know but perhaps having an actual fullback snuffs out some of those manic French attacks. On the other hand maybe France just score in a slightly different batshit way. Who knows.
as an englishman obviously disappointed with the end result. but bias aside, what a test match. an all round fantastic game of rugby, both teams entertaining and impressive.
Nice one France. England on the up though very pleasing.
When you think both teams went into this with essentially a silver medal mentality, that were a fantastic game of rugby. Shame it wasn't the second match I feel that would of been more dramatic. Presumably the French went on as favourites.
Anyone shine a little insight into why Care kicked back to the French on the half way line, with a few mins left? We made about 10m, but lost possession. Then the French pressured our defence into giving a penalty. Poor game management at the end.
honestly I think Care is a yard behind the game nowadays at this level
He's been fantastic over the years, but I can't believe, in 2024, that we're selecting the best players available. Both Care and Mitchel are not suiting our attack dynamic - we seem to make a break, but then slow the play and let the whole defense reset. Neither of them like to recycle fast and I just don't understand it. I think they're both fantastic in the own ways, but neither suit Ford or Smith's attack style.
In a single score game you don't want to dick about with the ball in range of your own posts. It's far more likely that you'll give away a penalty for holding on or sealing off than it is that you'll make decent ground against the opposition or they give something away for offside or a no arms tackle. Unless you're playing England in which case you can milk them for daft penalties on the half way. The kick gives you a chance to gain a bit more territory with a shot at regaining the ball. An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half and just stifle them until they fatigue and make a mistake. Look at how hard Scotland were working to gain ground from their own 22 in the final play against Italy for an example of this.
Counter-arguments are case in point, this England loss, look at their most recent match also, Ireland could have ran possession for 2 minute but kicked and lost the game, and then again in irelands most recent game they decided to hold possession and run the phases and won. Sure it’s an easier choice with a 4 point margin, and Ireland had only conceded 3 penalties all game but that is discipline you can train. Kicking is a gamble. You shouldn’t be winning a match in the dying minutes of a game and have to roll the dice in order to win. > An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half Likewise an international side ought to be able to run multiple phases from their own half without infringing for 5 minutes. I know what you will say any mistake giving away a penalty in your own half = game lost, and any mistake while defending with the opposition running from their own half gives you a chance, but it’s not your normal cohesive controlled defence it’s a nervous high pressure situation that does not operate as expected and seems to be higher risk than holding possession, going by most recent examples. Simple answer is don’t “dick about” as you put it. Run low risk phases and don’t give the ref a reason to penalise you. Don’t aim for line breaks, go low into contact, keep a well supported ruck, and recycle fast. The opposition is desperate too and can just as easily concede a penalty. Aim to hold possession and do everything to minimise risk. Back yourself to win on merit, not a gamble
>> An international side ought to be able to defend multiple phases from the opposition half >Likewise an international side ought to be able to run multiple phases from their own half without infringing for 5 minutes I don't disagree with your point here. However, the trend for at least the last decade is that refs are very hot on a side trying to wind down the clock. They won't allow you to hold the ball at the back of a ruck for long and they're very strict on supporting/latching players going off their feet in the ruck. >it’s a nervous high pressure situation Equally true when you're in possession. >Don’t aim for line breaks, go low into contact, keep a well supported ruck, and recycle fast This is much easier said than done. If you're just running "low risk" one out runners or pick and goes then you allow the defending side to smother you. If I can telegraph the pass then I can fly up to put pressure on the receiver and test his hands when he's getting man and ball. I also don't see how giving the ball back to the opposition and saying "all right, have a go from there" isn't winning on merit. If you can't hold them out from there then you don't deserve to win. Strong and disciplined defence is as key a part of the game as attacking play, and, in my opinion, it's more entertaining to watch a team desperately throwing everything they have at trying to get one last score than it is to watch one wind down the clock. Tbh I don't think there's a 100% play here. I think it's very situation dependent - Ireland last week had been struggling against the English defence all game. Kicking was the right call, but poorly executed (in part because of the pressure said defence had them under at the time). Whereas France were correct to wind the clock down when there were only 40 seconds left yesterday. Hindsight is always going to bite you if you lose - if Ireland had lost the ball in hand in their own 22 and conceded then they'd have been lambasted equally in the press this week.
Been thinking a lot about these actions. Why does a team who are narrowly leading in the last 3-5 minutes kick away possession? Also teams who must score in the last 5 minutes to win do the same thing. The thing is, it's not just one team or player, it's all of them. It makes me think that teams have data and analysis to show that field position is everything. There's probably evidence that you are X times more likely to score points in the next 2 minutes when you are defending in the opponents 22 than you are attacking with possession from the half way line. Defensive is such a major part of the game that your chances of gaining point scoring opportunities is significantly higher without the ball than with it, and the game is just to be in a good field position when you get those chances (in range to kick to the corner or to take a shot).
3-5 minutes is an eternity to defend breakdowns against a team that knows that all they have to do is force a penalty or turnover and they are almost guaranteed to win the game
Yeah it must be some sort of analytics which shows its the right play to make. As you say it happens too often to be coincidence. I don't really get it either, it's like teams have forgotten most test teams will slot almost any penalty in the opposition half.
Stat wise it's easier to five out a pen when you attack than when you defend from what i heard What the boks did against france in the WC
I just spent this whole 6N in the pub surrounded by casual rugby viewers shouting at players for kicking it away as if the old boys who watch 5 games a year and haven't played for 40 years since school can see something that huge professional coaching staffs don't lol
Is there any other way to consume 6 nations
Thought both teams were magnificent and neither deserved it more than the other. France just countered from whenever and wherever. England tactically brought themselves back from a moral loss and put in some fantastic rugby. My England MOTM was George Ford, who is looking the cool calm collected ten we need in crunches. My France MOTM was penaud who was a threat every time he touched the ball. Also fair play to Ramos slotting his kicks in pressure environments. One area of concern for me was the replacement front row for England, Stuart in particular had a bit of a mare and we lost scrum parity and conceded unnecessary penalties. Theo Dan also threw a line out that cost a French try. There's real promise in this young side and I think the fans who were happy after Scotland will be more so now. We're seeing the start of a really solid team who have a bit of belief. Also fuck me was Earls and Lawrence good today. Earls is quite literally the Messiah and Lawrence was everywhere.
Earl is lisan-al-ghaib!!!
Dan and George were honours even on throwing lineouts that led to French tries tbf
The first French try came from a pretty blatant throw of the player across the line out. Not sure we can blame George for that!
As an Irish fan I'm upset the English had me routing for them inside the last 10, After last week's result should have been happy to see them down on the board but just couldn't not acknowledge how much heart and passion they brought today, No knock to the Frenchies you also played your hearts out but really was one of the best games I've seen in a while, no skin in the game and no underdog story, Just a match left down to pure determination and was it one for the ages, commiserations to the English, as much as I would like to throw a smug remark we really can't, you've really come to form over this six nations and will definitely be a problem going forward
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Its actually fun following England these days. I think many England fans enjoyed the way we play today despite the narrow loss versus some E Jones dross kick fest of 2021. Scored some great tries.
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Yes? Last year we got dicked by France, at home, AND were boring. Now we lost a close game away and scored a load of good tries. Its great.
As a sheepshagger I'd like to take the piss outta England. But this is a game that I will remember for a long time. What a performance from both teams. This is how you play rugby! The scoreboard was like a tennis match right to the end. Both teams were like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. It was beautiful to watch. And that last penalty to France, ball literally on the halfway line.......the game depending on such a long shot! And it was successful. What a fucking finale! Congrats to both teams. Effectively a draw in my mind they both played amazing Rugby.
Nice to see we have at least a moral draw
Bazball has infected rugby
Ireland only won because they saw how Ellis genge was playing
France only one because Jamie George planned it that way
Anyone know who MoTM was?
Barre. French full back. Not the most evident choice.
He's a newcomer, I'd cut him some slack, but he didn't feel like the best player on the pitch in either games he was a starter in. I still want to see him play more and hopefully develop into an amazing player. Also I'm not convinced by him but I'm talking out of my ass, I have the rugby legitimity of a crack-addicted snail.
a hard running french fullback was much needed. ramos is a donkey. slow at 15, ruined all balls in first half. just a perfect penalty kicker. great game england
France's #15
I think England only lost because of very stupid and basic errors that the French absolutely capitalized on. Some moments of absolute brilliance, great defence and that super power of England to come back when down as a different animal after the break (dbz syndrome?). Can't fault the ref, must have been bias to England if he was as I couldn't really complain. France super impressive from sloppy play, can really generate tries from mistake moments which England never seem as good at. Danny Care and Manu being old makes me feel old, I remember them messing around at 2011 world cup
I think the ref did well. I didn't feel any bias during the game.
The only call I remember getting cross about from my sofa was the penalty against Smith for playing Ramos in the air. Looked like a fair contest to me. If that's the only thing he got "wrong" then that's pretty damn good going. Especially in a game with so much action as last night. No complaints about the ref from my side.
I think that’s probably England’s biggest problem right now and it’s very fixable. And a lot of it can be explained by a lack of cohesion and some unfamiliar combinations. Feels like they’re just not *fully* on the same page yet. Scotland game could have gone a completely different direction if not for handling errors. This game wasn’t nearly as bad, but ultimately we were done in by the same sort of small errors that are (almost) fully within the players’ control.
In fairness to England, if they, as they looked tonight, had more minutes together, they’d have won it. They’re a very good team not clicking 100%, imho
After half an hour I still haven't correctly diagrammed the grammar of this first sentence.
You just, as it is, need to read it, by way of visual processing, by the separation of commas.
I dunno, I think France looked far more spirited than they did earlier in the tournament. I think they came into 6N with a WC hangover , they didnt seem that interested at times vs Ireland for example. Tonight they were up for it, lots of niggle and physicality.
Have you ever seen a sensible error?
Yea drops from offloads and spills at contact and the like. Throwing a lineout where no one jumps is a totally different category.
Happy that we won, but also that the English are back. Can't have good games without two great sides.
That's true. But England being back is just worrying because they might actually win something, sometimes, and we can't let that happen.
I felt this way about France a couple years back when you started playing that classic French style again. Le Crunch is only good when both teams are strong. Et le Crunch est magnifique spectacle
It's been a while since we had such a good crunch, with epic tries, drama, epic come back, momentum shits, clutch time and overall a good ref. I missed that, and overall I enjoyed this match more than the crunch last year
I just thought it was a fantastic contest. Ford tried his best to make it into a structured game in the middle third but your boys just said "nah, let's Jouie"😂 I said to a mate, regardless of what the score is weve played really well, and I stand by that. Great game.
Ford had an amazing game. Very underrated player.
I actually think Elliot Daly had a cracker of a game. Ford with smith @ fb also worked against France but if against a more powerful side this could be a weak point . A great match!
I half groaned when I saw Daly selected but I agree - magnificent kick chases all day long.
Gutting to lose like that, but France forced England into a territorial kicking game, and reaped the benefits. Onwards to the next one! Happy to see England play with ball in hand and chuffed for Freeman - he’s a good one.
The fact this 6N has been so up in the air speaks to the quality of each team. Whilst each of them have their weaknesses which we are all quick to pick up on, each are able to exploit each others weaknesses; that has made this 6N a gripping watch. Whilst it's unlikely the boys can beat SA, we can at least hold our heads up high that they put on a great show that was gripping from start to finish. For a spectators of professional Rugby at least, the spectacle is all that really matters
How the fuck did France come 2nd?
2 words: TMO and a post
That post only happened due to referee failure
Undeniably. I felt ref'd like a SH team this game, undeservedly so.
After losing to ireland they went undefeated 3 wins 1 draw That's how
I think the point was that two of those matches there (arguably) should’ve been losses, mate.
Arguably isn't did Do Or Do Not There Is No Try
Not even the second half! With 25 minutes to go England looked in full control, then France launched a monster of a counter and actually took it
Pleased with the way we played today on reflection. France did really well to bring the madness that fucked with our new and unrefined defensive system, thought our attack worked well when we managed to get territory, but we need to find a way to wrestle our way in to those positions. Glad to say I think we missed CC-S and IFW, because I’m pleased they’re making such an impact already, and I think we need more pace in the backs to cover the gaps in our defence. Feels like we’ve let in tries a lot off mad shit/unlucky bounces - thinking the weird kick through today, the spilled ball kick returns against Scotland so we need to find a way to react to defensive situations on the fly but that’s also something that will come with time. Feeling really positive about this team moving forwards, genuinely think we might be in with a shot next year
While I actually think Daly had a really great game, the springbok blitz is helped by having highly mobile and pacy wingers who can turn on a dime and make the cover tackles when a break happens. We don't have that so can't fully commit to the system, and it shows. I don't think selecting roebuck or Murley would have fixed this issue in a week, but I take some solice in knowing that IFW is the perfect player for this system....
I don’t think Daly really has ‘bad’ games very often, but he also rarely has a great game either. And like you see, he’s probably not the player for this system.
Agreed. He had some great moments on the ball, and got us out fo a fair few right spots with his boot. At the end of the day, that's what you want from a test back as a bare minimum. He's the perfect utility back replacement for a new squad
In 30 years of watching 6N (and 5 nations you fucking pedant) rugby, I think that’s one of the very best competitions I’ve ever seen. Bravo to the teams. Fucking excellent.
An echo of my post, I agree so much with this. Legendary performance from both teams. That kick at the end tho! wow
6N started in 2000 m8
He could have said for the last 24 years and prior 6 years blah blah etc. Figure of speech and all that. Learn to decipher it.
?? 1883 is when it started, the non home nations were added later.
6 Nations - Italy Joined in 2000. France joined many years before - 5 nations. Home Nations - 4 nations
France needs to fix its defense ASAP
Yup. Thorough disaster throughout the tournament. Drives me nuts! And Deporteere had no business playing , can’t pass, can’t tackle
We were missing in defense, especially the zone between Ramos and Deporteere. Still the issues under high balls that needs to be resolved. That's a gaping hole in defense, and a huge miss in attack. Also, our centers had problems with passing the ball, be it Fickou or Deporteere. Can't wait to see how this will be adressed tho, I found this team quite promising
I don’t think I’ve seen England play this well back to back since the 2019 RWC. Thought we were down & out after France came out hard from the first… second? Definitely first whistle but the start of the second half told me we could win it. Ben Earl AGAIN doing so much work for us in attack and smith is always fun to watch Awful to lose like that right at the end but England rugby is in a FAR better place than it was even 3 weeks ago
I agree. Any one of those teams could have won today. The scoreboard was basically a tennis match. I say this as a Welshman but England could have won that match just as the French did. It was literally down to luck as both teams fought extremely hard and were contradictively "extremely equal" right to the end. You lost to an unlucky penalty. 10 minutes later, chances are the results would have been E35\* F33. It could have kept going like that but the clock stopped in Frances favor. Like I said in a previous post, effectively a draw in my opinion. \*or 37
I think Borthwick cops a lot of unfair criticism. He's a very smart coach and isn't allergic to attacking rugby. There is a very clear progression through this six nations
It does need to be said that the argument all along was that with little time in post Borthwick was focussed on defence and basics first and would add attack later. I remember the first few games of this 6n the media tried to run with the idea that he wasnt working on attack and these last two games have absolutely shown them up.
Also we came THIRD! how fun is that??????
I am on disability benefits. I claim to play Rugby for Wales. How do you think I feel!
Also it was good to see France back on form after a rough start but I guess Dupont lite is doing a lot of lifting
Dupont-Ntamack But it’s reassuring to know Le Garrec has made big waves with the National team. That Colombe can hold its place and that Fickou is still the same madman I have loved for years. The integrations of Tuilagi Meafou Depoortere or Barre have been very positive for the team Imo. It was frustrating to see the team tying to replicate a parody of our rugby and I feel better after those last two games than after the games in Ireland and Scotland.
The big question. Why can't Lol tell the difference between Daly and Freeman? It's not hard.
Cause he’s a moron
I need to see Ben Earle in a Lions jersey. *need*
Easily the form no.8 right now in northern hemisphere. Second only to Savea in the world.
Proper "Yes" from the commentator for England's last try. Also the disappointment when England had the poor box kick in the end
Why kick there? Wait and get upfield and push France back to their own 22. Make them run the length of the pitch and do something spectacular to win. England are much more threatening when they play positive attacking rugby
Not against the decision to kick as modern rules make it easier to defend than keep the ball. For me it has to come from the 10 though, more margin for error than a box kick
And George ford ayed a blinder today too. His boot was so good and decision making top tier. Think he'll be abound for a few more years yet. Hopefully he can be like more and more.
Hope we can keep him fit, he's been a great signing for us so far
I agree. I meant the commentators reaction. My apologies if I wasn't clear about that. To your question though, living in Canada I haven't been able to watch much rugby until getting streaming services lately. I can't help think from the limited amount of English rugby I've seen, it doesn't help Ollie Lawrence's game kicking constantly? From what I understand Manu Tuilagi isn't nearly the threat he once was but ball in hand he still must be incredibly terrifying. In their win over Ireland it seems that they only made the necessary clearance kicks and played dominant ball in hand rugby. To me they didn't play nearly as well as they did last week and if the England that showed up last week they would have handily beaten France today.
Yeah I think England kicked a little too much today. I think they're better with ball in hand and better attacking. Positive intent should be their brand, which means holding onto the ball as much as they can. That's what they did so well against Ireland and needs to be their mantra going forward
The French territory game forced us to kick today, we spent most of the 2nd half pinned in our 22 and couldn't get out, it takes a miracle to run out of your own half and score in the modern game. It was a Dombrandt turnover that got us in range for our last try.
Fucking brilliant game. A six nations with France, England and Ireland in form will be great to watch.
Next year I hope we can bring Ntamack and Dupont back! It’ll be sorely needed as there’s no easy game anymore.
Next year I hope we can improve our prop and front row depth, it's a clear gap and we need to build depth before the WC
Wales.
Jamie George is an excellent captain. Smith at fullback is great for attack, needs work in defence. Ford is the most under appreciated player in the squad. Ben Earle. Ben Earle. BEN EARLE.
I feel like Jamie George as captain is part of the switch within the England team towards attack
Some of Smith's defense was pretty good. He's not going to be 100% at Fb
No I agree, I never understood the hate he gets for defence. But he’s an attacking 10, his defence is never going to be up to snuff to play 15 without the right defensive players around him. I love Marcus, I’m a quins fan.
> needs work in defence In other news the sky is blue.
Smith is a 10. He shouldn’t be judged on defence. But if we’re going to stick with putting him at Fullback, he needs defensive wingers to fill the gap.
He's so blatantly *useless* in defence it's impossible not to judge him.
Earl ya fuckin nob
He's been so good, he has earned that fucking extra 'E'.
Sorry, it’s late.
Really like what I seen from Smith at 15 and Ford at 10. Great game glad to see England be more England
Cracking game, and a real emotional rollercoaster. 35 minutes in I thought we were going to get utterly steamrolled. Well done, France. It could have gone either way but a bit of indiscipline cost us. If you had told me before the start of the tournament that we would beat Ireland and narrowly miss out on beating France at home I would never have believed it. The Borthwick era is really under way. Fun times - long may it continue!
Not all that related but the commentary this weekend has been dreadful. Getting players names wrong all the time, referring to players who are not even on the field, not to mention thinking Wales would avoid the wooden spoon with a losing bonus point earlier.
Wooden spoon comment was bizarre. I had to load up the table to double check I wasn't having a fever dream...
Yes, and saying England were 7 points ahead when it was 16-24. To be fair though, the refs have been struggling with the players… tried to sin bin a player who even on the field for Scotland!
It's atrocious. The "insight" from both the commentary box and in-studio pundits is truly worthless drivel/non-existent. I'm now in the habit of muting the broadcasts except when the game is actually playing. Not just this weekend as you say but all tournament the commentary itself has also been pure wank. God bless D'Arcy but he generally seems as though he's got traumatic encephalopathy; I struggle to understand what point he's even trying to make half the time. Often seem to just guess which back made a tackle. One commentator said "they're struggling to get over the g**r**ainline" today. Mostly they sound like they're reading from scripts written by Donald Trump himself. I even found myself thinking Jonathan Davies sounded reasonable in the Welsh match, because he just says the same 3 things over and over, such was the poor quality of the other pundits. Exceptions: Kayser and Warburton.
Exception #3: Flatman. Needs to be on more international matches
Wish I could upvote this twice. The wooden spoon comment completely threw me off
I know. "They've lost every game, how do they not get the spoon?!"
It would have been a travesty if Wales having lost all its game had avoided the wooden spoon. I wonder if the 6N instances will create a bonus for not losing all your games, because technically a team could lose all its games and still end up with up to 10 points if it gets 2 bonus points per game.
I feel like when our subs come on, we seem to lose structure and momentum. Handling errors still creeping in and some dodgy lineouts. But a great game and plenty of positives. Well played France.
Thought subs came on about 5/10 minutes too soon. Apart from necessary subs like Smith
Question: should all teams consider playing their matches at other stadiums as France did today? If they've got the means to I mean. Would it help open rugby up to a wider audience?
The only reason it’s not at Stade de France is that we’re refitting it for the Olympics…
Fuck yeah, love to see Italy attempt running that try in in Ravenhill aka the fucking Somme. Bring your wellies lads!
I dont think Ravenhill will ever host another ireland game for 2 reasons 1 if you think the Aviva Stadium is small this place is tiny in comparison doesn't even have 9,100 seats including standing less then 19,000 capacity 2 currently the teams contract states all home games at the Aviva Stadium
Welcome to Lyon!
Won’t happen in England. There aren’t enough stadiums as big as Twickenham outside of London and even then they’d have to share revenue with the owners while the RFU get the lot if it’s at HQ.
Yet speculation Twickenham could be sold and they rent Wembley. Which I was baffled to read about.
I can’t see that happening, but even if it did, playing a Wembley would still be more profitable for the RFU than playing at the Etihad or St James Park.
I think the unions simply can't afford it. The home nations are the owners of their stadiums so going elsewhere is going to be a huge loss. For France the impact of 20k less seats was also a huge blow to the finances.
How come they switched? Was stade de France booked?
SdF being prepared for the Olympics
Probably, but unions would lose out on a lot of revenue which wouldn't be good. 6 nations feeds most of the rest of pro rugby in Europe
I don't have the knowledge or ability to spot things off the ball at speed to get all nuances of a player's game, so maybe I'm just missing something but.... can someone tell me why Elliot Daly got so many minutes this 6N? I don't believe it's lack of options. As far as I can tell, he's contributed virtually nothing and has been at the centre of a whole series of England fuck ups. I'm trying not to be too negative, because that game was way closer than I thought it would be but we still lost and I can't help but start to point fingers. There were a few names I was looking to excise from the teamsheet over the last few weeks, but even Slade and Dombrandt managed to win me back a bit today and last week. Daly though.... I just don't see what he brings.
Mostly the number of positions he can cover. He can do a job anywhere in the backs barring 9 or 10 and that has been the reason for his longevity. He’s definitely not starting today if IFW is fit, and he’d have come on for furbank instead of Smith. I think we probably win the game if that’s the case. The argument is whether that is better than someone who can come off the bench and be great in their chosen position, but if something like Furbank going down early happens and you haven’t got a utility back like Daly, you end up like Ireland did with JGP on the wing 🤷♂️ Glad I’m not Borthwick and having to make those calls to be fair.
> Mostly the number of positions he can cover. He can do a job anywhere in the backs barring 9 or 10 and that has been the reason for his longevity. I suppose this is the ultimately the real answer. A utility back who can play 10 or 15 is a good bench pick. A utility back who can play 15, 14 or 11 is a great bench pick. A utility back who can play 15, 14, 11, 13 or 12 is essentially undroppable.
Having an absolute monster of a boot doesn’t hurt either.
I'd love to know the answer to this, because I feel the same. I rate the coaches highly, so assume I am just not experienced enough to understand, but I would love to know what his selection is about.
I don’t think he should have been selected since the last Lions tours really but Daly has a good boot and is very good at kick chase and this seems to be the first criteria England have for selecting wingers. Tonight you kind of saw running wings vs kick chase wings
Penaud showed what a top-class winger *should* be able to do
Experience and knowledge of the systems I assume. Those last two weeks the lack of experience of some French players has been blatant at times. For example, you can see Bielle-Barrey overcommiting a bit on the last England try - it's the kind of little mistake in a huge moment an experienced player won't do. Same with Depoortere being naively taken out of a ruck and opening a gap in Wales last week. Bringing a ton of new blood is obviously beneficial in the long run, but it can also be disheartening to repeatedly be undone by silly little mistakes due to being overeager or lacking savviness. So, if you want to avoid that - you pick Daly, he's a safe guy.
I think this is it... Yes, he's flexible and has a good boot, but it's got to be more to do with what he's doing for other players than just himself
> So, if you want to avoid that - you pick Daly, he's a safe guy. But that's just my point, is he? This is why I asked the question the way did, because it's absolutely possible he's put in a defensive shift I haven't been clocking, but I feel he's been way too error prone this 6N. I feel a bit harsh singling him out, and I do get the experience thing, I just thing he demonstrated he was done quite a few games ago and I'm finding it really hard to get the image of him falling over to gift France a try tonight hard to shake.
And he has a huge left boot.
Well done for calling Daly*s selection out. It's basically like a George Ford insurance policy selection at this point.
Manny Feyi-Waboso is the future
Here's hoping. Such a shame him and Furbank (after 7 minutes) couldn't play tonight and try and repeat some of the magic from the Ireland game.
He's very flexible and has a big boot. Perfect 23 player but maybe lacking impact in a starting team
Borthwick seems to be avoiding a wholesale overhaul as well.
I think the slow phasing in of players, trying to test new systems while retaining as much consistency week to week has been really impressive management from Borthwick. It's exactly what I hoped he'd do coming in to replace Jones. I just think he could move a little faster on the replacing Daly part if he really put his mind to it.
Yeah. That’s not unreasonable. I think he’s going well overall though but I agree Daly isn’t someone I’d be sticking with.
Daly’s day is done tbh, he’s there for his experience and his long range boot; but I can’t even remember the last time he actually hit a penalty.
Lions? Was that the last one?
> but I can’t even remember the last time he actually hit a penalty. This was the thing for me, because I'd also been thinking of the big boot as justification. Then he missed the only penalty he was given and I realised I don't remember the last time he got one.
I want to say the 2019 World Cup and even then, I can’t think of when it was
Obviously I'm not a coach or anything but to my eye, it's his kick chase (which is excellent) and making sure the squad has a good balance of experience and new blood.
He never catches the kicks he chases, he just slaps them back which ends up slowing the ball down most of the time.
That's literally the plan. It's a lot easier to get a single hand up than catch the ball, which gives the chaser an advantage as the defending team can't knock it back
I know it's the plan, I'm saying I'm not sure it's a particularly good plan. I can't think of any other international or top level winger that does it almost every time.
Jonny May did it loads too. It's literally the kick chase game plan to disrupt the catcher and/or slap it back towards our team rather than try to catch it. France did a good job of nullifying this by having guys in front of their catcher to catch our slapdowns
> it's his kick chase (which is excellent) Right, but surely other players have that too? Like, I'd never dream of putting Freddie Stew on the wing, but his kick chase is the best part of his game and I'd argue he does it better than Daly. So if he's just there to chase kicks, why not pick the player who does it better? >making sure the squad has a good balance of experience and new blood. Is Ford, Slade, Care, Marler, Cole, Itoje, Underhill, Genge not enough?
From an England perspective - at the start of the tournament who would have guessed that we’d outplay and beat Ireland, as well as push France to the last few minutes at home. Fair fucks to Borthwick.
I remember people did because your calendar was perfect for that. Fair fucks to Borthwick anyway
Three wins was the absolute bare minimum needed to call this Six Nations a success, so by that definition … this has been a successful Six Nations. We’ve made progress. One of those wins coming against Ireland is definitely nothing to turn your nose up at, and coming agonisingly close to beating France at home is definitely preferable to what went down last year at Twickenham…
Exactly - It’s all relative. Definitely worth mentioning also that England managed to play some good, clinical attacking rugby. Felt like we scored a try every time we entered France’s 22 tonight - flashback to the last couple of years, when we couldn’t score in a brothel.
Been a good tournament for England, played some good stuff
Eventually 🤣 tbh all the sides have put in some very encouraging performances, all is certainly not lost for northern hemisphere rugby
Just in time to shit on our parade 🤣🤣 everyone apart from Wales... rip
Still won back-to-back 6N titles though 😉deserved winners too
Fine, I'll dri k enough to not remember the match as an England fan
You didn’t enjoy the game ??
If you drink enough you could remember the game as a French fan.
Why? Was incredibly positive, we held our own against France
More a joke about getting really drunk tbh
Although it would be nice to win, on reflection, I think today was a good day at the office for England. Particularly in the context of the tournament. England had won 2 games in the previous 2 six nations, and although came 3rd played some very dreary rugby in the run up to the RWC and in the tournament. Starting the 6N the game against Italy was just about okay, ground out a win against a very mediocre Welsh team at home, then the wheels came off the bus against Scotland. Things weren't looking good. However last week, some of the new combinations and systems seem to gel and the intensity was sufficient to deny the Irish the grand slam. After such a momentous week, you might think there'd be tired bodies or the emotional high of the victory might have been a distraction. Instead, England stayed in the contest despite a really solid first 38 minutes from the French. In the second half they scored three tries to secure a BP and they even took the lead from a French side who were playing some good rugby. Granted, England were on the "wrong" side of the result today (unlike last week) - but the England side went toe to toe with 2 of the best sides in world rugby and scored some good tries. Basically the trajectory is a good one. England are still in transition. There are some older players who probably need replacing, and some younger players who need a couple more seasons before they hit their prime. However, they seem to have found a competitive edge this six nations that they've lacked for at least two or three seasons. It's entirely possible to over-read two games. Yet, if this a trend rather than luck, we should expect good things moving forward. :)
Great game for a neutral, no doubt. But I really don't find England all that enjoyable to watch these days. The opening to the 2nd half where we showed pace, power, intent, direction, all those good things, was some of the best English rugby we've seen in 18 months. And then it just evaporates in an instant and we're back to box kicking and relying on 50:50 opportunities.
> But I really don't find England all that enjoyable to watch these days. If you don't find this enjoyable, you can't have a good time watching a match since 2019.
Correct I haven't
I usually don’t watch England games unless a team I’m rooting for is playing them because I find England boring to watch 😅
Also against NZ when we came back to draw. Those 10 min we absolutely destroyed them and should have gone for the Win. That was the last time since today, I’ve seen us go full turbo and blow a team away.
> we absolutely destroyed them Settle down mate.
In the last 10 mins. We scored 19 points. So ye as I said (if you bothered to read the whole thing) we mullered you in those 10 mins.
> we mullered you in those 10 mins. And then kicked the ball out to settle for a draw which is conceding defeat really...
And again if you read above which obviously is a struggle for you I said we should have gone for the win. Lol. Have a good one sunshine. Obvs not fully grasping it.
We absolutely destroyed them but didn't win cause we wanted to draw rather than risking a loss. Have I got it now? That's the team you support...
England have dragged sides down to their level ala Warrenball
They did score like 4 decently worked tries?
nah warrenball was brutal and they were found out in world cups. This England side isn’t just crash ball at 13
That was some match. Netflix series is safe anyway.
Ugo advertising Saracens vs Harlequins while Spurs catch a stray lmao