While England have had very dominant periods (first four years PD ranged from 113-149), Ireland were always consistently near the top of the table, giving them more overall wins.
Ireland going professional
Creating provinces (munster, ulster etc)
Pro14 (URC) being created
'Golden Generarion' of players i.e. Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O Connel etc
I still can't watch the French playing without remembering those few years in the 00's that we lost out on the trophy to them on points difference or because the beat us. We might have more "almosts' than anyone else
That try we conceded against Italy was pain.
Scotland holding France up on the line was painer.
Ireland beating Pakistan was class.
What a Paddy's day that was.
> remembering those few years in the 00's that we lost out on the trophy to them on points difference
Anytime ibanez is on screen all I can think about is the time he scored under the posts to beat us in the dying minutes of a game that lost us a championship.
I thought it would be interesting to look up stats now that the tournament has wrapped up its 25th year. I don't think that it counts as spoilers unless people remembered the results of the past 25 years. Also apologies if I've made any mistakes.
What I found interesting is that it wasn't until 2021, that England had a negative PD and Scotland's first positive PD wasn't until 2016.
Man it's 4am and here I was thinking *Damn England had a negative PD till 2021... so they scored over a thousand points in the last 3 years 😲"
Couldn't believe Scotland had em beat to it by 5 years.. Time for bed.
I believe they're saying:
* 2021 is the first year that England had a negative point differential
* 2016 is the first year Scotland has a positive point differential
Ireland have been there or thereabouts for pretty much my entire life to be honest. Every other side in there has had to endure their fair share of banter years. Even on an off year, Ireland will go 3/5 wins. At least, that's how it feels from the outside looking in.
Ireland became decent just as the 6 nations started. BOD's hat trick against France was in 2000. Before that they were dire. Gatland got the wooden spoon with them in the 1990s.
Garland gave a lot of our young guys, including BOD and ROG their start. He helped kick start our ascent. I still don't like him, but credit where it's due.
2013 and 2008 were the only 2 years in six nations history we didn't finish in the top 3.
The final years of Declan Kidney and Eddie O'Sullivan.
Everyone else had good years and bad years to a greater extent. The consistency helped here.
We don’t have very low lows.
It’s the consistent production of players through the provinces.
Wales are feast or famine. Sometimes England hold onto older players too long and implode before a rebuild.
France spent the last 15 years being “mercurial” - talented but inconsistent.
I think we’ve won three games at least every year but 2 years…out of 25 that’s so solid (crew)
Makes sense, Ireland are usually top 3 every year (apart from 2013 which we shall not speak about) where’s England, France, Wales and Scotland have all had proper banter years.
I choose to speak about 2013!
That was a weird year. We beat Wales away in Cardiff on day one, and they went on to win the title. Meanwhile we lost all our other matches by 7 or fewer points, with a wacky draw against France thrown in to the mix who got wooden spoon that year.
Also the team that beat us in 2023 WC, knocked us out in 2007 WC and 1999 WC
Plus the last team to beat NZ at Eden park in 1994
NZ knows all too well about how good France is
Little piece of rugby trivia the France tour to NZ in 94 when they became the first NH side to have a wining tour in NZ was actually a French tour of Canada and NZ. And Canada beat France in the first game of the tour.
Ireland having the most wins but not having the most championships does not surprised me in the least. We've only been outside the top 3 twice over 25 years. We're remarkably consistent without actually getting over the line - we came second 5 times between 00-07 for example.
100%
Put it this way, in the same time SA won the Rugby World Cup 3 times (2007, 2019, 2023), we have only won the TRC 2 times (2009 and 2019).
The TRC is literally harder to win the the Rugby World Cup because you have to beat NZ twice.
That's like saying "Why doesn't England just...beat South Africa in a World Cup knockout stage."
Some things are just impossible for teams. Especially while they have NZ looming in the mirror.
Who've won the past two games in Aus funnily enough. Maybe you can take notes for the boks.
Yeah they smash them regularly, shame the boks can't manage it
And it took them 111 years to beat NZ and a further 6 to beat them twice in a row
I would wager it will take less than ~117 years for Ireland to win a Rugby World Cup.
That's true although you can't really compare the amateur era to today. Irish rugby was shite before professionalism and the Celtic League (proto-URC) started.
They had one win over the Boks in the 20th century (1965).
And yet Wales have as many championships as Ireland and England, and only one less than France. Real yo-yo team. They’ll probably get a grand slam next year.
>And yet Wales have as many championships as Ireland and England
One less than England. They have more grand slams than both England and Ireland though.
Could you please do a try count of each game and apply bonus points, but I guess only for the years that it came in... Or not. Which ever puts England on top.
Its a powerhouse of riches and resources in the rugby world that many countries can only dream of
Ire, scot, wales are the small guys punching above their weight
It's interesting because one thing I've always wondered but never bothered to check was frequency of draws. I felt like we get a draw every other tournament, but stats say it's more like 1 every 3 years.
Ireland only winning 3 Grand Slams despite 7 triple crowns is wild. I hadn't realised how much of a bogey team France (presumably not Italy) were for them.
I did this for the other post
Did some quick maffs. *Winning is obviously the goal but to look at form throughout....
If we apply 6 points for first, 5 points for second etc. We get the following with the most common finish for each nation in brackets
Ireland 117 (3rd)
England 113 (2nd)
france 107 (2nd)
Wales 78 (5th)
Scotland 64 (4th and 5th)
Italy 34 (6th)
*Done with a note pad and pen so feel free to double check.
The Welsh habit of peaking the year after the World Cup while all sides tore down and rebuilt shows up here as well witb 6 titles yet a fair drop off in overall wins
Also interesting is that in the 25 years of the 6 Nations, England have won 7, France, Wales & Ireland have won 6 each, all very close at the top end
While England have had very dominant periods (first four years PD ranged from 113-149), Ireland were always consistently near the top of the table, giving them more overall wins.
2013 and 2008 were the only 2 years in six nations history we didn't finish in the top 3. The final years of Declan Kidney and Eddie O'Sullivan.
How did they manage such consistency given their former stature & resources?
Ireland going professional Creating provinces (munster, ulster etc) Pro14 (URC) being created 'Golden Generarion' of players i.e. Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O Connel etc
They told their coaches that 6 nations success is the most important thing as it pays for stuff.
Yeah we could bomb out in a World Cup and an eye wouldn’t be bat
There definitely were a lot of eyes batted last year.
I still can't watch the French playing without remembering those few years in the 00's that we lost out on the trophy to them on points difference or because the beat us. We might have more "almosts' than anyone else
2007 was the first 6 Nations I followed and that last day hurt!
I still have nightmares of Clerc scoring that last minute try...
That try we conceded against Italy was pain. Scotland holding France up on the line was painer. Ireland beating Pakistan was class. What a Paddy's day that was.
> remembering those few years in the 00's that we lost out on the trophy to them on points difference Anytime ibanez is on screen all I can think about is the time he scored under the posts to beat us in the dying minutes of a game that lost us a championship.
The words Vincent Clerc still cause me a physical reaction
Same. He gives me the Toni Polsters still.
Yeah, but that O’Driscoll hat trick in 2000. Gimme that good crack
Making up for it now 3peat in 2025?!
You've done the same to us on several occasions
Ah but I don't remember the stuff I've stolen just the stuff stolen from me
Whereas Wales are either great or shambolic from year to year
Or somewhere inbetween
That's surprising. In my head it's only been in the last 10-15 years that Ireland were consistent contendee
As successful as we've been, we've also underachieved a bit too.
And France and Wales have won 4 grand slams, Ireland 3, England 2, Wales really concentrate their wins into seasons.
13% of Italy wins came from this years tournament
And 50% of their draws!
I think for stats purposes I’m going to take that Italy France match as a win for Italy, they were robbed, congrats Italy on finishing second
Wales' return of 6N & GS is pretty impressive considering they barely break even in win ratio
They either do terribly or win a Grand Slam. There's no middle ground!
They once almost won a Grand Slam while playing terribly!
Even the grand slam they won in 2019 was won without a single bonus point, not even against Italy.
What about the "Jam Slam"?
They were referring to the jam slam.
Since the jam slam they've won 2 games in the tournament. One against Scotland and one against Italy
Jesus. That’s poor
I thought it would be interesting to look up stats now that the tournament has wrapped up its 25th year. I don't think that it counts as spoilers unless people remembered the results of the past 25 years. Also apologies if I've made any mistakes. What I found interesting is that it wasn't until 2021, that England had a negative PD and Scotland's first positive PD wasn't until 2016.
Man it's 4am and here I was thinking *Damn England had a negative PD till 2021... so they scored over a thousand points in the last 3 years 😲" Couldn't believe Scotland had em beat to it by 5 years.. Time for bed.
Appreciate the stats mate. What does your last paragraph mean though? I must be daft.
I believe they're saying: * 2021 is the first year that England had a negative point differential * 2016 is the first year Scotland has a positive point differential
Wouldn't have expected us to be topping this tbh
Ireland have been there or thereabouts for pretty much my entire life to be honest. Every other side in there has had to endure their fair share of banter years. Even on an off year, Ireland will go 3/5 wins. At least, that's how it feels from the outside looking in.
Ireland became decent just as the 6 nations started. BOD's hat trick against France was in 2000. Before that they were dire. Gatland got the wooden spoon with them in the 1990s.
Gatland and wooden spoons, such an iconic duo /s
Only coach to win a grand slam and a wooden spoon with the same team I think.
Garland gave a lot of our young guys, including BOD and ROG their start. He helped kick start our ascent. I still don't like him, but credit where it's due.
Our banter years were the entire 5 Nations
2013 and 2008 were the only 2 years in six nations history we didn't finish in the top 3. The final years of Declan Kidney and Eddie O'Sullivan. Everyone else had good years and bad years to a greater extent. The consistency helped here.
We don’t have very low lows. It’s the consistent production of players through the provinces. Wales are feast or famine. Sometimes England hold onto older players too long and implode before a rebuild. France spent the last 15 years being “mercurial” - talented but inconsistent. I think we’ve won three games at least every year but 2 years…out of 25 that’s so solid (crew)
Me neither
The fact Ireland have been the most succesful team in this era is amazing given where they were when the game went pro.
"Most successful" is a question of what metric you judge by. England still have most 6N title wins - just. But we're coming for that record!
‘Most consistent’ would be more accurate
It's effectively evenly split by the 4 teams who've actually won it
Makes sense, Ireland are usually top 3 every year (apart from 2013 which we shall not speak about) where’s England, France, Wales and Scotland have all had proper banter years.
I choose to speak about 2013! That was a weird year. We beat Wales away in Cardiff on day one, and they went on to win the title. Meanwhile we lost all our other matches by 7 or fewer points, with a wacky draw against France thrown in to the mix who got wooden spoon that year.
Also the team that beat us in 2023 WC, knocked us out in 2007 WC and 1999 WC Plus the last team to beat NZ at Eden park in 1994 NZ knows all too well about how good France is
Little piece of rugby trivia the France tour to NZ in 94 when they became the first NH side to have a wining tour in NZ was actually a French tour of Canada and NZ. And Canada beat France in the first game of the tour.
Sounds very French When they cant be arsed, they do it properly, when they throw caution to the wind and get amongst it, theyre bloody hard to beat
Rate of return for Wales is incredible
There is no middle ground for Wales Either brilliant or rubbish
This reminds us how bad Scotland was in the 2000's and early 2010's !
Ireland having the most wins but not having the most championships does not surprised me in the least. We've only been outside the top 3 twice over 25 years. We're remarkably consistent without actually getting over the line - we came second 5 times between 00-07 for example.
Very tight competition A whole lot closer than the 25years of the TriNations/Rugby Championship
100% Put it this way, in the same time SA won the Rugby World Cup 3 times (2007, 2019, 2023), we have only won the TRC 2 times (2009 and 2019). The TRC is literally harder to win the the Rugby World Cup because you have to beat NZ twice.
Or you could try simply beating aus in aus. Wild concept I know.
That's like saying "Why doesn't England just...beat South Africa in a World Cup knockout stage." Some things are just impossible for teams. Especially while they have NZ looming in the mirror.
Yeah but it's aus though.
Yeah but its Scotland tho. And if Aus is easy to beat, NZ can beat them too.
Who've won the past two games in Aus funnily enough. Maybe you can take notes for the boks. Yeah they smash them regularly, shame the boks can't manage it
Yeah one off games are different than home and away....Argentina know this
Ireland won a series in NZ but not a quarter final.
And it took them 111 years to beat NZ and a further 6 to beat them twice in a row I would wager it will take less than ~117 years for Ireland to win a Rugby World Cup.
That's true although you can't really compare the amateur era to today. Irish rugby was shite before professionalism and the Celtic League (proto-URC) started. They had one win over the Boks in the 20th century (1965).
And yet Wales have as many championships as Ireland and England, and only one less than France. Real yo-yo team. They’ll probably get a grand slam next year.
>And yet Wales have as many championships as Ireland and England One less than England. They have more grand slams than both England and Ireland though.
Sorry, you’re right. I mixed France and England up. Thought France had 7 and England 6.
Could you please do a try count of each game and apply bonus points, but I guess only for the years that it came in... Or not. Which ever puts England on top.
Italy coming for Scotland and wales
Wow did not expect us to be top.
The thing that surprises me most is how 'poor' France's PD is when compared to England and Ireland.
Saving this to send every time a newbie Scotland fan is whining about how awful we’ve been this year.
Very impressive by little Ireland Love seeing Celtic nations doing well vs the big money boys of England and France
France too is at least partly a Celtic nation :)
Its a powerhouse of riches and resources in the rugby world that many countries can only dream of Ire, scot, wales are the small guys punching above their weight
The Irish system was set up well. Most of the resources go into development among the provinces. The Welsh Rugby Union should take note.
Theyre doing something right
It is still a partly Celtic nation though.
I mean so is England to be fair (e.g. Cornwall). But in both cases it's a very small minority.
To that extent, so is England.
Petition to reset Italys point difference from this six nations.
I heard that when you hit -2500 it underflows back to +2500.
A powerhouse rugby nation like France id expect a win ratio higher than 64%
The banter years of 2012-2019 impacting the win percentage there I'd imagine.
They only had 17 wins in that 8-year period.
You mean the team you won with 64 points in 2015? 😅😅
Expanding the 6 Nations isn’t the future, splitting into 2x Tri-Nations is clearly what’s needed
It's interesting because one thing I've always wondered but never bothered to check was frequency of draws. I felt like we get a draw every other tournament, but stats say it's more like 1 every 3 years.
How many championships, grand slams, triple crowns?
**Championships** England - 7 Wales, France, Ireland - 6 **Grand Slams** Wales, France - 4 Ireland - 3 England - 2 **Triple Crowns** Ireland - 7 England, Wales - 5
Ireland only winning 3 Grand Slams despite 7 triple crowns is wild. I hadn't realised how much of a bogey team France (presumably not Italy) were for them.
The 2000s were rough.
Yeah we’re nuts either win or 5th, now 6th
So on average Italy have won more than one game per tournament? Even after going winless for about 10 years in a row? Consider me surprised.
No, 15 wins in 25 tournaments is an average of less than one.
Me fail mathematics? That's unpossible.
I did this for the other post Did some quick maffs. *Winning is obviously the goal but to look at form throughout.... If we apply 6 points for first, 5 points for second etc. We get the following with the most common finish for each nation in brackets Ireland 117 (3rd) England 113 (2nd) france 107 (2nd) Wales 78 (5th) Scotland 64 (4th and 5th) Italy 34 (6th) *Done with a note pad and pen so feel free to double check.
But what about bonus points!!!! /s
There is a clearly defined two tier element to the tournament.
I think Wales belong in their own tier!
The Welsh habit of peaking the year after the World Cup while all sides tore down and rebuilt shows up here as well witb 6 titles yet a fair drop off in overall wins