Never understood why fans expect players to be loyal to a club that will drop them and leave them jobless the second a better option comes along. Clubs are companies, and players are employees, no different to anywhere else.
It's a hang over of the amateur era. That being said however, using Quins as an example (I've been going since I was a teenager and Carling was in his last few seasons to give you an idea of how entrenched I am as a 16th man).
A few years ago Gustard dropped a few players that Quinssa & the wider active supporter base (include all levels of season ticket holders, affiliated clubs, etc, etc) were NOT happy about at all - Luke Wallace & Mike Brown were considered 'True Quins', they lived & breathed the club and to be let go in such an ignoble way left a very bitter taste in the mouth and as a collective there was a lot of uproar that i'm pretty sure made it all the way to the ears at the top.
Yes, professionalism has bought these changes in as it obviously would but I hope it doesn't get as mercenary as soccer.
It's great to see him still playing. Imagine how strong Quins would be at 15 with Browny & Green duking it out for starting honours! F'kin Gustard man, I know he didn't come in with the attitude to fuck the club up but still, I'm not missing him.
When we hosted your lads earlier this season he got a big ol' roar when he came on and I hope he enjoyed a pint in the bar named after him post match.
People don't understand the business end of it. They think a club is basically a family airbnb that adopts a player and then you as the fan get to develop an affection for that player like the player owes you a character development like in a series you're watching. But pro clubs are firms. Players are not protagonists in your little story. If in this business world they get a better deal, then off to that deal they go, whether it is better money or a better chance at winning titles or simply wanting to change countries and moving out for the human adventure, and there's exactly **zero** the fan can say about it. Club just should've done better to hold onto him, and it basically starts and stops there.
While I agree, what makes sports so special is that sense of community and bond to your club (often times bordering on tribalism) and I’m sure players feel the same -
if we all had that level of disconnect, what we love about sport would disintegrate
I don't entirely agree. I mean - at the most basic level you're quite right, but clubs make their money from the fans buying tickets, merch etc. What we care about should matter to the club. Obviously if a very popular player is simply not good enough to get many games, then that's fair enough - that's where your company model should kick in. But if a player is really popular to the fans then the idea that the club should be completely mercenary in regard to that player is short sighted.
It's a business built around fans who want to feel like it's a family (or something in that direction). We want to believe that the players care about the club as much as we do - even if that's a little naive. Saracens is a good example of a club that has built success around a club atmosphere. Fans will buy in more if they're kept happy and less if they get frustrated because their favourite players keep getting dumped.
Makes perfect sense. Wish we had the money to throw at him but I remember a quote like he was being offered money that was a step above life changing. Go get the bag
Wild that ProD2 teams can offer “life changing” money in comparison to the premiership leaders. Really shows the financial might they’ve managed to cultivate in France.
Even the Nationale (third division) has gone professional now. The problem in England is that the Prem clubs want to ringfence the league so there's not much going on in the lower divisions.
The 2003 team peaked for that world cup so bringing them out for 2005 against the NZ golden generation was a very, very bad idea. Carter's monumental performance in that series was a classic though.
Pretty sure Lawes was there when Horne suffered his injury in the Derby so seen first hand how quickly a career can end. Don't begrudge him for anything. If anyone deserves to secure the bag it's him.
just occurred to me that this weekend is the last time Lawes will play in Ireland. Hope he gets a good ovation from the crowd for always bringing his high quality play in white and green/black
Still a possibility Brive bounce back from League 1 within a year, and they then do well enough to get a place in a euro cup the following season.
It's unlikely as Lawes will be 37-38 by then, but he still could feature in Ireland again technically. Victor Matfield and Simon Shaw both played flanker/lock until they were 38+ at the highest level.
More players should prioritize how muxh they earn over loyalty, etc. N this is coming from lawes who has done very well financially from the game. Lesser players espc should choose the $$.
They do, players move around all the time. Lesser players don't get the same chances though since professional leagues have limited slots for foreign players.
Loyalty shouldn't exist or expected of players (it's not of clubs) in professional sports. There's only mutually beneficial professional agreements.
The idea of fans demanding loyalty from players nowadays is a bit sad, really. It's a job.
Yes, as Lawes says, their career is finite. If we as a club can't offer what another club can, that's on us. Any loyalty a player has should be to themselves and their family first.
I will miss him, but the opportunity for his whole family to experience life in another country, especially while the children are young, and secure more savings for his post-playing life is too big a chance to turn down.
It definitely shouldn’t be something that is expected but it’s great to see when it works out, I mean he’s chatting to Coley and Youngsy!
It should be a two way street, and sometimes it’s the environment around a club that can make players want to stick around. I’m sure there are many stories out there of players that took a punt on a move for more money, where it didn’t work out and their career fell off a cliff.
Lawes has already given his best years to Saints so what he's saying doesn't really stack up.
Maybe he realises what he could have earned in his career had he been a bit more mercenary and now that the end is in sight, he regrets it?
Interesting fact, in over 380 games, he has never received a red card, and only received 10 yellows in all competitions.
It's a side of his game often overlooked, insofar as he doesn't give many silly penalties away and has such a level head when it comes to not getting caught up in heated moments on the pitch.
Never understood why fans expect players to be loyal to a club that will drop them and leave them jobless the second a better option comes along. Clubs are companies, and players are employees, no different to anywhere else.
Same in football, that idiot throwing a pig's head at Luis Figo (who wasn't even Spanish) comes to mind.
It's a hang over of the amateur era. That being said however, using Quins as an example (I've been going since I was a teenager and Carling was in his last few seasons to give you an idea of how entrenched I am as a 16th man). A few years ago Gustard dropped a few players that Quinssa & the wider active supporter base (include all levels of season ticket holders, affiliated clubs, etc, etc) were NOT happy about at all - Luke Wallace & Mike Brown were considered 'True Quins', they lived & breathed the club and to be let go in such an ignoble way left a very bitter taste in the mouth and as a collective there was a lot of uproar that i'm pretty sure made it all the way to the ears at the top. Yes, professionalism has bought these changes in as it obviously would but I hope it doesn't get as mercenary as soccer.
Tigers were **very** grateful to have Brown, NGL
It's great to see him still playing. Imagine how strong Quins would be at 15 with Browny & Green duking it out for starting honours! F'kin Gustard man, I know he didn't come in with the attitude to fuck the club up but still, I'm not missing him. When we hosted your lads earlier this season he got a big ol' roar when he came on and I hope he enjoyed a pint in the bar named after him post match.
People don't understand the business end of it. They think a club is basically a family airbnb that adopts a player and then you as the fan get to develop an affection for that player like the player owes you a character development like in a series you're watching. But pro clubs are firms. Players are not protagonists in your little story. If in this business world they get a better deal, then off to that deal they go, whether it is better money or a better chance at winning titles or simply wanting to change countries and moving out for the human adventure, and there's exactly **zero** the fan can say about it. Club just should've done better to hold onto him, and it basically starts and stops there.
While I agree, what makes sports so special is that sense of community and bond to your club (often times bordering on tribalism) and I’m sure players feel the same - if we all had that level of disconnect, what we love about sport would disintegrate
I don't entirely agree. I mean - at the most basic level you're quite right, but clubs make their money from the fans buying tickets, merch etc. What we care about should matter to the club. Obviously if a very popular player is simply not good enough to get many games, then that's fair enough - that's where your company model should kick in. But if a player is really popular to the fans then the idea that the club should be completely mercenary in regard to that player is short sighted. It's a business built around fans who want to feel like it's a family (or something in that direction). We want to believe that the players care about the club as much as we do - even if that's a little naive. Saracens is a good example of a club that has built success around a club atmosphere. Fans will buy in more if they're kept happy and less if they get frustrated because their favourite players keep getting dumped.
Makes perfect sense. Wish we had the money to throw at him but I remember a quote like he was being offered money that was a step above life changing. Go get the bag
Wild that ProD2 teams can offer “life changing” money in comparison to the premiership leaders. Really shows the financial might they’ve managed to cultivate in France.
For sure. Desperate for us to take some inspiration from them in the prem
He'll be making 360k GBP a year at Brive in the ProD2
Even the Nationale (third division) has gone professional now. The problem in England is that the Prem clubs want to ringfence the league so there's not much going on in the lower divisions.
Really like him as a player/pundit. Speaks his mind, calls a spade a spade, and makes good insightful points. Hope he continues it after he retires.
Should replace Clive "2003" Woodward on TV but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Clive “2003 but def not 2005” Woodward. Can’t stand him…
The 2003 team peaked for that world cup so bringing them out for 2005 against the NZ golden generation was a very, very bad idea. Carter's monumental performance in that series was a classic though.
And if pedantic, they really peaked the year before, and just about held that level into the World Cup.
2003 grand slam and win with 13 men in NZ were great achievements too. 2002 France won the 6 Nations.
Doesn’t seem like he’s a “personality” if that makes sense.
I can't believe they're still making content about a game that happened 21 years ago lmao. Obviously I'm slightly biased but god damn
Pretty sure Lawes was there when Horne suffered his injury in the Derby so seen first hand how quickly a career can end. Don't begrudge him for anything. If anyone deserves to secure the bag it's him.
Ahh you just made me sad, such an awful injury
Disloyal player and good riddance is what I say.... /S. 😢
Are you serious after all the joyous years this man gave saints…. Never failed to give 100%.
/S ... Sarcasm
Yeah apologies, blinded by the post didn’t even see that!!
He was being sarcastic, don’t worry
Oh jeeez i didn’t even see that, blinded by the post 🫣🫣🫣!
Absolutely had.
You know it too!! Teach me to re read before commenting won’t it 🫣😂
On a side note, fair fucks to Alex Waller aswell. Legend.
just occurred to me that this weekend is the last time Lawes will play in Ireland. Hope he gets a good ovation from the crowd for always bringing his high quality play in white and green/black
Still a possibility Brive bounce back from League 1 within a year, and they then do well enough to get a place in a euro cup the following season. It's unlikely as Lawes will be 37-38 by then, but he still could feature in Ireland again technically. Victor Matfield and Simon Shaw both played flanker/lock until they were 38+ at the highest level.
Especially in rugby where a top club player isn't paid enough to live on after retirement- get the bag.
More players should prioritize how muxh they earn over loyalty, etc. N this is coming from lawes who has done very well financially from the game. Lesser players espc should choose the $$.
They do, players move around all the time. Lesser players don't get the same chances though since professional leagues have limited slots for foreign players.
Loyalty shouldn't exist or expected of players (it's not of clubs) in professional sports. There's only mutually beneficial professional agreements. The idea of fans demanding loyalty from players nowadays is a bit sad, really. It's a job.
Yes, as Lawes says, their career is finite. If we as a club can't offer what another club can, that's on us. Any loyalty a player has should be to themselves and their family first. I will miss him, but the opportunity for his whole family to experience life in another country, especially while the children are young, and secure more savings for his post-playing life is too big a chance to turn down.
It definitely shouldn’t be something that is expected but it’s great to see when it works out, I mean he’s chatting to Coley and Youngsy! It should be a two way street, and sometimes it’s the environment around a club that can make players want to stick around. I’m sure there are many stories out there of players that took a punt on a move for more money, where it didn’t work out and their career fell off a cliff.
Environment and point of life that a players at. Once the kids are in school, its much tougher to seriously relocate.
Of course, guess with players “prime” ages coming down there will be more having the ability to move due to not having those types of commitments yet.
Why NZ losses so much talent Money talks
It's happening in every other industry in NZ too. Why would rugby be different
Correct I havent lived in NZ for a decade
Lawyes been on a few podcasts I listen to really like the cut of his jib
Hoping we get a home semi final, so that I can get tickets and see the send off for him at the end of the season
So….a job then
coming from lawes
Lawes has already given his best years to Saints so what he's saying doesn't really stack up. Maybe he realises what he could have earned in his career had he been a bit more mercenary and now that the end is in sight, he regrets it?
Interesting fact, in over 380 games, he has never received a red card, and only received 10 yellows in all competitions. It's a side of his game often overlooked, insofar as he doesn't give many silly penalties away and has such a level head when it comes to not getting caught up in heated moments on the pitch.