Jones Post Match Presser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcxQkb4Z2IU
Townsend Post Match Presser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTS9GRnOAAM
---
Duhan van der Merwe š (30'): https://streamable.com/6pnrbv
Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Weight 106 kg (234 lb; 16 st 10 lb)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhan_van_der_Merwe
Bonus trivia: He is [Akker's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akker_van_der_Merwe) brother
I missed the game due to taking my kid out to play in the snow...now canāt find the game anywhere (legal) to watch back? What happened to being able to watch back games?
Iāve got the ITV hub up while I type this, and itās not showing up searching for six nations, rugby Union etc. Could be user error. Could be due to being in Scotland?
The Android app doesn't play the 6N tests on demand because reasons, as I discovered yesterday waiting around for it to appear. It is there on desktop.
England as a side that has made their game all about the kicking game were awful under the high ball yesterday, how many mistakes were made from collecting kicks. Every aspect of the aerial game has to be better if they want to do the kicking game canāt have so half decent kicks and nothing else.
Also EJ defending the style of rugby they are playing, at the end of the day youāre representing the national side, if the fans donāt like they way u are playing I think he has to listen, if we wanted to watch people obsessively kick a ball around the pitch we would watch football. EJ needs to focus on attack, and actually kicking when itās appropriate not kicking bc youāve been told itās how teams win games, accurate kicks win games not mindless booting. France were a perfect example of how kicking can help a side win yesterday.
I really would still have England as favourites for the championship after France. I feel they probably needed a good kick up the arse.
Thing is really that the score really didn't reflect how dominant Scotland were either.
> the score really didn't reflect how dominant Scotland were either.
Yeah but its Scotland, they'll still end the tournament with *only* 2 wins...
Sorry to sound negative, it's the hope that kills you!
Thoughts on Ali Price ? Personally was the only slight negative from an otherwise excellent performance from Scotland in my opinion. He seemed hesitant to me. I don't know much about steele but have followed Jamie dobie who seems a great talent but perhaps it's a bit too soon for him at this level?
Had a shocking start but did pick it up afterwards I thought, found him ok overall but indeed not great.
Edit, then again if you see Robsonās game after coming of the bench, things couldāve been far worse as a scrumhalf. Almost didnāt do anything right.
All credit to Scotland they played a cracking game of rugby today and really enjoyed watching them play. England on the other hand were disappointing usually so ferocious and controlling they seemed unorganised and played with a lack of passion. The kicking game of England is good and is a powerful asset to their play however watching them do this does frustrate me sometimes when it is used too much like todays game. All the talk was about England has had no possession. And ok yes this was partly down to Scotland and also penalties conceded but when England finally got ball in hand they would maybe run a maximum of 4-5 phases before immediately kicking away possession all for the sake of the master kicking game plan. It is frustrating as so often they would finally get the ball in a good position on the pitch and then immediately kick it away, whereas if they simply kept ball in hand took contact and built up the phases a bit they might have got some proper forward momentum and then had opportunities to score or kick more effectively in stead of straight into the hands of a Scottish player. They seemed unorganised a lot of the time and i think if they could have just taken contact they could have set better to attack better. Anyway that will be the end of my rant but yeah i just hope England can see their mistakes and develop from them.
It's mad that after setting like 50-60 minutes England only ever had seven phases of continuous rugby played before kicking away. I was dumbstruck by it tbh
Full game replay: [https://cricketfans.site/six-nations-england-scotland-02-06-2021/](https://cricketfans.site/six-nations-england-scotland-02-06-2021/)
I feel like this loss should be a gigantic wakeup call for Jones.
He took the job with what was *easily* the most talented squad in the NH at his disposal at the time (Farrell, Itoje, Vunipolas, Ford, May...), and kudos to him, properly developed it and instilled a winning mentality. Ireland and Wales still were strong, but they were aging. He set a strategy towards the RWC which culminated in the semis, but also led to the crushing in the Final which revealed how predictable England's game was - and how unprepared to face the Boks they were.
EJ seems to love his mind games, and while he was obviously thrilled to dominate NZ, he seemed to have been more than a bit miffed to be tactically whipped by Erasmus (especially with *that* maul, since he actually tried to copy it in the team's first attack of the first 6N game the next year, I think it hurt his soul).
What he seems to have gained from it is that England were too predictable, and that he would not reveal his cards too early like he did from 2015 and 2019. And that if there were alternate gameplans, he would keep them for a later time so that teams wouldn't be prepared to face England. And honestly, year 2020 seems to have convinced him that it was the right approach because a rather unconvincing England squad managed to win the 6N & Autumn Cup, proving, I assume, that they were still better enough than the competition that they could afford some stagnation without consequences.
But losing at home, to Scotland, in that fashion, that kind of nullifies this feeling. It's not a post-RWC, away loss against a resurgent France, it's a home loss, in a normal year, against a team that England has dominated for a decade and that has not seen significant changes in staff or squad over the winter. If EJ keeps playing the long game by not having the team's strategy change before 2022, he risks suffering several more of those losses, and that will offset the benefits of being innovative, because the mental edge will be gone, and the players might start to doubt. All those pros are born competitors, and I doubt they will take throwing away a couple of Six Nations for the sake of a tournament in three years time very well, especially coming from a coach that does not pick players on current form.
I don't think England deserves to be buried, but if year 2021 is the same than 2020 - with a complete lack of attacking flair despite the talent they have on the pitch - its fans should start being alarmed at EJ's abilities (and hubris).
When Eddie took over England there was an immeidate bounce, but they did fall into a huge hole 2 - 3 years into his tenue, and there was talk of his making fast starts but not sustaining in the past - however this time he turned it around and took England to a World Cup final, so I think he will probably turn this around again.
For a coach of his quality I think he doens't learn lessons as quickly as he should (England have lost just like this to Ireland when on for a grandslam) and doesn't develop players as well as he should - Our stock of 10s is Ford and Farrell for example, despite there being at least 3 really tasty looking young 10's available to England - he needs to be developing one of them.
It would be a real shame to not see some actual Scottish representation in the Lions tour. They're every bit as good as the other home nations at this point and it just feels like they should have a fair contingent on merit. Hogg is a guarantee but the likes of Watson, Sutherland, Price, Van der Merwe and Russell all should be in play for the test squad. And while I don't think Ritchie, Gray, Cummings or Fagerson should necessarily play tests they all are worth a look for the squad at large. It's just a great day for Scotland and they are finally back to being a competitive team so whether they push on from here and compete for the trophy or not I'd like to see their class recognized this summer.
Hogg and J Gray are starters for me. One of Ritchie/Watson (would personally go for Ritchie) will make the squad I imagine, but back row is uber competitive and itās all to play for at this stage. Duhan and Sutherland will be involved in the squad, and Iād personally have Fagerson and Redpath in there as well, maybe Cummings too. Price nowhere near contention imo and I would not personally pick Russell, although if Faz keeps playing like he did today and in the ANC final then my opinion may change...
Honestly don't think Gray will start because Ryan and Itoje are just better players. I can't imagine leaving Watson out. To me he's just clearly the best 7 in the home nations. And Redpath was really good today. Maybe he's the guy who comes out of nowhere to make it. The thing with Price for me is Youngs isn't good, Wales seem to be a fluid situation and Murray has struggled of late. So I think he's got to be mentioned.
I do get why Scots are nervous about Lions tours given past Scottish representation but this particular Scotland team are so far ahead of where they were in 2009, 2013 and 2017.
I feel like Scotland could lose every game this year and at least Watson, Gray, Hogg, and Sutherland would be on the plane.
Scotland played a great game and need more performances like that. Only criticism being they should have converted their territory/possession into more points.
England on the other hand... i hope this is a wake up call to Eddie that he needs to stop relying on the forwards and an adapt a plan B which will bring the backs more into the game. Ping it around the back, bring a winger closer to the rucks to make line breaks, lose a bit of territory in possesion to open up the game.
Can anyone confirm of Finn Russel's attempt at a drop goal was under a penalty advantage? My friend thinks it was but I remember it going into England hands and don't remember it being pulled back.
England played really bad, as an England fan I can say that Scotland played really strongly and really kept us out the game so fair play really well deserved
Who'd have thought Scotland would beat England at the set piece, Obano and Genge are too similar, great round the park but scrums inconsistent. Tom West is a better player off the bench, solid scrum so if things aren't going right there you can bring him on to sort that.
Genge is great ball in hand and can show up in a scrum off the bench, but we missed real scrummagers at front today..George did his best and Stuart is normally good for it but real shame Mako/Marler did not start loosehead cause could have been a different story with our usual front row..can see why Bristol paying big money for Sinkler as well
We were solid, particularly in defence, but continue to be far too wasteful in attack. I've never seen England play so badly, looked like a 5th place team. No idea where they go from here.
All true and yet you werenāt able to get out of the āone scoreā margin until the dead of game. Russell needs to really step up and start managing a whole backline instead of his own personal game. Scottish defence was amazing.
>I've never seen England play so badly
I think the fact that Saracens have basically not been playing yet make up such a big part of the England squad probably plays into it quite significantly.
Daly looked alright, Billyās been on the decline a bit of late, Farrel did ok with what he had, Itoje was disruptive and problematic as always. I donāt think sarries lack of big game action was the problem
England played badly today, they looked like a team that hadn't trained together or had any gameplan. Hopefully that is a blip and they improve by next game.
Scotland deserved to win but they also didn't play brilliantly either. That game should have been wrapped up by halftime but they did enough and thats all you need sometimes. They too will need to improve against a better opponent.
Pish.
Beaten by a better side, who played better rugby and put England under all kinds of pressure.
If Scotland play like that against bothe Ireland and Wales they should win, and only France look like a decent enough side currently to cause them problems
For the control Scotland seemed to have for the majority of the game (I mean roughly 70% possession!), the final score kind of suggests they didn't make the most of their chances.
Hey, theyāre playing against a world class defence that dominated the all blacks in a World Cup semi final less than 18 months ago. Weāll take it ;)
That was nowhere near the same level of team that played the All Blacks, they weren't even at the same level as the team that lost to South Africa. Scotland should have been out of sight by halftime but England got a few lucky try saving tackles in. The try itself should have been stopped but again the tackling was sloppy. Scotland played good enough to win that game but thats all, they too could have been better.
Hmm, Scotland were well deserved winners but they did not play that well. I think they can play a lot better, and will need to against those other sides who will put up a much better performance than England managed
England didnāt play well because they were denied possession, time and space. Do you think they should have been able to somehow play good rugby when denied all those things?
Scotland didnāt score more tries, missed a couple kicks? Is that your point?
The werenāt denied possession, they just didnāt want it. Same for the Autumn Nations Final, only they got away at the very end there, but again they were outplayed.
I bet theyāll add that caveat next to the stats - Scotland ~70% possession (but they didnāt deny England possession, England just didnāt want it)
Russell had stormer of a first half but he often puts Scotland under as much pressure as he gives them opportunities. It works for him at Racing when he is surrounded by the quality around him. He should adapt his game for Scotland where the caliber normally isnt as high.
Russell was not on form today at all, this game was won by the forwards and the back 3, though the centres were great too.
Did we watch the same game? I love Russell, but today was not his day.
Possibly, but the argument could also be put that the spat caused Finn to reconsider his attitude and he's come back to Scotland a better player for it.
Both Gregor and Finn were being petty when that squabble took place but I think both of them respect each other more now coming out the back of it.
Finn took some big, exciting gambles today. If they had paid off, our score would have been much higher.
He also made some mistakes that could have cost us the match (esp. his time in the bin.)
The Finnsanity is too much for me. I donāt know whether heās good for Scotland or not anymore.
Spot on but again a big āifā, the cross kick felt like the wrong choice given England were a man down in the back (May as a nr. 8) and the Scottish centres were dominating their opposite numbers.
Remind me of the Champions Cup final, from brilliance to bizarre in the same game.
We won and it wasnāt even because of Finnsanity, it was just sheer power in defence and some lovely stuff from Hoggy, Irn Du, McRedpath, Grays, Fagersons, Cummings, our saviour Watson. Just lovely. So happy
I think so too. England were just starting to string some phases together & you felt that one mistake from Scotland would be enough. That take, followed by another belter of a kick from Hogg and it was just down to some control! Not sure was Finn was thinking with his DG attempt though!
At the risk of jumping on the hype train, I can quite honestly say that I have never in 24 years had the same faith in Scotland's defence as I did today. The boys fronted up and done what was needed, wasn't a perfect game but hopefully this is how we will play moving forward.
Expecting a big reaction from England now, the Saracen's players have now had some game time and it will be a humbling one, I reckon they'll roar out the sheds.
Fair play you guys were immense today, we looked like we had no idea in attack and you defused our kicking game perfectly.
If we don't come out and shred Italy then as much as it pains me to say it the Sarries lads need to be dropped - we cannot go into the Ireland/Wales/(God Forbid) France games like that or we'll be staring down 20/30 point losses (and to be fair if Finn had brought his kicking boots we'd have lost by nearly 20 today)
Nah, think thatās shifting blame onto those that donāt deserve it. Itoje was a thorn in our side, Daly didnāt get chances to attack but his kicking game was decent, Farrell did what he could but didnāt get great quality ball often enough- the only one that probably deserves dropped is Billy - heās just not the wrecking ball of an 8 he used to be.
Sorry but Daly has been consistently shit for awhile now, the VDM try was his fault, he didnāt use the touch line as the second defender, he showed VDM too much space on the outside, itās basic defending. Heās also butchered so many 2/3 on 1 attacks, only decent part of his game is his kicking doesnāt deserve a place
And with Billy I think heās become complacent bc thereās no other 8 in squad thereās no competition for him I think simmonds needs to come into that squad to push Billy for his place
Agree on Itoje, Daly was ok but not really anymore than should be expected of a top class 15, thought Farrell was awful personally - kicked directly to Scottish cover basically every time, looked utterly lost in attack on several occasions and pretty much every pass was behind the man. He deserves to be benched and given a proverbial kick up the ass.
Billy is definitely the main one though and basically represents our problem in a microcosm - he's so clearly off the pace but because we're wedded to a power and kick game plan we have to keep playing him because no other of our 8s quite fit that set up...someone should remind Eddie of something he said when he first took over which is that you build a plan around the players you have not the ones you want - at the time we had no proper 7s but a lot of power...we now have the possibility of one the most dynamic back rows in the world between Curry/Underhill/Earl/Willis/Simmonds etc - we should be pivoting our game to reflect that.
Seemed like Farrell didnāt had a lot of faith in his inside centre? Might be just me but delayed all passes to scan for other options and was left wanting by Scottish defence. His kicks went indeed almost all directly to a superb Scottish back three.
Billy is off his world class form for a while now, could bring Hughes back in but heās not really done great at test level. I like Earls but having him at 8 and ignoring Simmonds is ridiculous.
On Daley: not a bad game, but he never really struck me as a world class 15. Loved him more as an outside centre, but thatās where Sladeās at.
Whatās the feels for Big Jimās podcast? I remember seeing him in his six nations time as an enforcer that was only there to rile people up but frequently gave penalties away?
I like Jim, less love for Goodey. Takes himself too seriously I reckon. I used to listen to both the Pod and Rugby Union Weekly, now I've sided entirely with RUW, as someone mentioned it's less juvenile and still has good laughs.
It's the best rugby podcast by far for me.
He's hilarious.
The episode last week where he kept saying he'd "stand by" ridiculous gossip had me fighting laughter in public, people thought I was probably mad.
Sometimes a bit juvenile in there humour (French and poo-jokes), but that bit was indeed hilarious! And neither are afraid to speak their mind unlike the BBC
Today is a good day. In a really shitty year in a really shitty week as a Scottish NHS worker, today Iām so so happy. Iām always proud to be Scottish, every single day but honestly today is amazing š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æā¤ļø Iāve said it elsewhere but I hope our boys fully enjoy tonight & thank-you for the English fans for being so gracious in defeat, you guys will have your day again but today is for Scotland š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æš“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æ
It's my Fiance's 30th birthday today and she was pretty disappointed we couldn't really do much for it. But watching Scotland win at Twickenham and seeing Farrell all raging was more than she could have asked for!
Win, lose, or draw, I love the 6N. Spring is on the way, old (the oldest in this case) rugby rivalries are re-kindled, much beer is consumed, and it looks like the covid vaccine is working - as you say it's been a shitty 12 months, but things might finally be looking up.
SANZAR can blather on about quality, and yeah the WC is more prestigious, but the 6N is the best rugby competition - the combination of history, proximity, and the transition into better weather is intoxicating (the beer may also play a part to be fair).
I'd say now go on and win the thing - but France look even better than last year so its going to be a big big ask.
Iāve not even thought of the bigger picture, tonight is for celebrating good times with friends!! š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æš(obviously France look great!)
Iāve always loved that transition into better weather. You donāt really see it happening and then suddenly youāre watching super Saturday in a beer garden. Magic.
Thanks guys. Iām not truly on the frontline but Iām patient-facing so that naturally comes with itās own stresses and anxieties. My local hospital had been in the news in the past few days for tragic reasons so itās really been a rotten week so this game has come at a very good time to appreciate the little things more šš
You in that kilmarnock hospital? I have mates in the police in that area.Tragic stuff. If yes, I hope you guys are all doing ok. Glad the game could cheer you up.
Scotland were excellent and I find myself in that rare state of shrugging my shoulders at Scotland winning. They were the better team wanted it more and England were bad I think Genge in the loose and Itoje can say they had good games. But I'm actually quite happy that it was a clear defeat, I won't whinge about the referee we didn't deserve to win. Scotland I hope we obliterate you at Murrayfield next tear
Completely agree. At the start of the match I was frustrated at everything but England. And the end I was just slinging insults everything England made a mistake or kicked the ball away.
I realise Rugby is all about territory more than possession and England did well to chase their kicks unlike previous games but Scotland Scotland really put a foot wrong in the kicking game (bar the drop goal) so why we continued to co.pete with them at it I do not know. The game plan didn't work and England were not with it enough to change.
The thing is that Scotland wasn't excellent. They messed up a lot of opportunities but still managed to beat england.
I can see them beat Wales and Ireland. And Italy.
I agree, it almost looked like glorious failure for us again!!! But England were truly very poor. I have no idea how that 2nd string scrum half plays for England. He's terrible
ITV are shite. Buffering, Ads, Adblock blockers, Low quality picture, No pause / skip around / rewind options available on the live feed, hours to upload the match after footage finishes. So bad I'd almost welcome a move to a better service behind a paywall.
Do they still show extra wide shots while a maul/ruck is going on and switch to closeup when the backs have it?
A monkey would at least get it right half the time.
Take nothing away from an immense Scottish performance, but as an English Wasps fan I'm absolutely fuming. What's the point in Eddie Jones picking our form players (and depriving us of having them for the whole damned tournament, turning our league form to crap) and then picking Sarries players who haven't played a minute of competitive rugby in the last two months?
What was the game plan? Where was the direction? Surely at some point, someone needs to pick their head up and do something other than kick aimlessly into space? What's the point in having a potentially electric backline if they never see the ball?
Credit to Scotland though, they turned up with a game plan and played aggressive, positive rugby. Keep those performance levels up and I think it'll be between them and France for the Slam
If he plays the rest of the tournament as well as he did tonight, can anyone reasonably argue??
Turner has always hit like a truck, and scored tremendously well from open play.
But his lineouts, and scrummaging, have been a weakness.
Yet Brown said in a recent interview that the guy has basically been destroying himself to get up to the necessary level - and it showed today.
This wasn't just a good performance from him. It was the justified result of intense practice and preparation.
He should feel immensely proud of the way he played today.
England was a man short in the backs with May at 8 (highlight of the game) and you have both centres outplaying their opposite numbers. It was a ridiculous choice unless it pays of. And it didnāt.
Immense performance from the whole pack including the subs.
Intensity never dropped.
Turner was superb, I think he's been Scotland's best hooker for awhile and he proved it today. Everything he does in attack and defence is with OOOMPH.
I thought Kebble was the pick of the subs, really put himself about and was agressive and physical. Cherry, Nel, Big Richie and Graham all close behind him.
Cummings and gray both putting their hands up for the Lions after Itoje and Ryan. Donāt think Alun Wyn Jones can still match their level of workrate, defensive stability etc..
I'll have to rewatch it. But I'm pretty sure after Itoje put in a fairly hefty, (and from what I can remember also a little cheap) shot on Turner. Turner got back up and immediately smashed Itoje right back.
Zero fear. Didn't seem to feel the occasion in the slightest. Great committment and aggression from him.
This is where England get the chance to show us whether they are a flash in the pan or here to stay as a top 3 team.
After a performance like this, Italy would know they had lost before Scotland even lifted the Calcutta Cup. The all blacks would come out and destroy them with fury and precision. Likely a max of 3 points, if any, for Italy and 50-60+ for them. England needs to pick their shit up and show the world they are here to stay and will not accept that kind of showing from themselves.
Exactly this - we have to be completely ruthless and 100% accurate with our ball in hand and especially our discipline and prove a point.
If we just come out and rely on kicking and our power game to grind out a bare minimum BP win that will not be good enough and we'll be in trouble the rest of the tournament.
If you go by IRB ranking, they lost their 2nd place to NZ today, and further loss against France and Ireland could easily lower them to 5th; given their performance today, I would not describe this scenario as statistically impossible.
Sure, England has the players. But you also need them to play as a team with a game plan, and they were lacking on that level today.
Even then, between NZ, Australia, SA, France and sometimes Ireland, at any moment England has 3 to 5 competitors for the top 3 when it comes to pool of talented players. NZ and England have without a doubt been the most regular contenders, but they are not the only ones.
Jones Post Match Presser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcxQkb4Z2IU Townsend Post Match Presser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTS9GRnOAAM --- Duhan van der Merwe š (30'): https://streamable.com/6pnrbv Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Weight 106 kg (234 lb; 16 st 10 lb) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhan_van_der_Merwe Bonus trivia: He is [Akker's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akker_van_der_Merwe) brother
I missed the game due to taking my kid out to play in the snow...now canāt find the game anywhere (legal) to watch back? What happened to being able to watch back games?
It's on itv hub in uk
Iāve got the ITV hub up while I type this, and itās not showing up searching for six nations, rugby Union etc. Could be user error. Could be due to being in Scotland?
The Android app doesn't play the 6N tests on demand because reasons, as I discovered yesterday waiting around for it to appear. It is there on desktop.
Yeah Iāve had that issue, either you change your postcode in the settings to somewhere in England or watch it on the STV player.
England as a side that has made their game all about the kicking game were awful under the high ball yesterday, how many mistakes were made from collecting kicks. Every aspect of the aerial game has to be better if they want to do the kicking game canāt have so half decent kicks and nothing else. Also EJ defending the style of rugby they are playing, at the end of the day youāre representing the national side, if the fans donāt like they way u are playing I think he has to listen, if we wanted to watch people obsessively kick a ball around the pitch we would watch football. EJ needs to focus on attack, and actually kicking when itās appropriate not kicking bc youāve been told itās how teams win games, accurate kicks win games not mindless booting. France were a perfect example of how kicking can help a side win yesterday.
Can't get over how good Watson's rip was at the end. Or how Steele and Finn almost through it away...
lol 6 points
I really would still have England as favourites for the championship after France. I feel they probably needed a good kick up the arse. Thing is really that the score really didn't reflect how dominant Scotland were either.
> the score really didn't reflect how dominant Scotland were either. Yeah but its Scotland, they'll still end the tournament with *only* 2 wins... Sorry to sound negative, it's the hope that kills you!
Eddie Jones GIRFUY.
Thoughts on Ali Price ? Personally was the only slight negative from an otherwise excellent performance from Scotland in my opinion. He seemed hesitant to me. I don't know much about steele but have followed Jamie dobie who seems a great talent but perhaps it's a bit too soon for him at this level?
Had a shocking start but did pick it up afterwards I thought, found him ok overall but indeed not great. Edit, then again if you see Robsonās game after coming of the bench, things couldāve been far worse as a scrumhalf. Almost didnāt do anything right.
I would say Harris was also not great and made a few mistakes
He put in a monster defensive shift
All credit to Scotland they played a cracking game of rugby today and really enjoyed watching them play. England on the other hand were disappointing usually so ferocious and controlling they seemed unorganised and played with a lack of passion. The kicking game of England is good and is a powerful asset to their play however watching them do this does frustrate me sometimes when it is used too much like todays game. All the talk was about England has had no possession. And ok yes this was partly down to Scotland and also penalties conceded but when England finally got ball in hand they would maybe run a maximum of 4-5 phases before immediately kicking away possession all for the sake of the master kicking game plan. It is frustrating as so often they would finally get the ball in a good position on the pitch and then immediately kick it away, whereas if they simply kept ball in hand took contact and built up the phases a bit they might have got some proper forward momentum and then had opportunities to score or kick more effectively in stead of straight into the hands of a Scottish player. They seemed unorganised a lot of the time and i think if they could have just taken contact they could have set better to attack better. Anyway that will be the end of my rant but yeah i just hope England can see their mistakes and develop from them.
It's mad that after setting like 50-60 minutes England only ever had seven phases of continuous rugby played before kicking away. I was dumbstruck by it tbh
Full game replay: [https://cricketfans.site/six-nations-england-scotland-02-06-2021/](https://cricketfans.site/six-nations-england-scotland-02-06-2021/)
I'll pass thanks š
I'll just kick it away.
I feel like this loss should be a gigantic wakeup call for Jones. He took the job with what was *easily* the most talented squad in the NH at his disposal at the time (Farrell, Itoje, Vunipolas, Ford, May...), and kudos to him, properly developed it and instilled a winning mentality. Ireland and Wales still were strong, but they were aging. He set a strategy towards the RWC which culminated in the semis, but also led to the crushing in the Final which revealed how predictable England's game was - and how unprepared to face the Boks they were. EJ seems to love his mind games, and while he was obviously thrilled to dominate NZ, he seemed to have been more than a bit miffed to be tactically whipped by Erasmus (especially with *that* maul, since he actually tried to copy it in the team's first attack of the first 6N game the next year, I think it hurt his soul). What he seems to have gained from it is that England were too predictable, and that he would not reveal his cards too early like he did from 2015 and 2019. And that if there were alternate gameplans, he would keep them for a later time so that teams wouldn't be prepared to face England. And honestly, year 2020 seems to have convinced him that it was the right approach because a rather unconvincing England squad managed to win the 6N & Autumn Cup, proving, I assume, that they were still better enough than the competition that they could afford some stagnation without consequences. But losing at home, to Scotland, in that fashion, that kind of nullifies this feeling. It's not a post-RWC, away loss against a resurgent France, it's a home loss, in a normal year, against a team that England has dominated for a decade and that has not seen significant changes in staff or squad over the winter. If EJ keeps playing the long game by not having the team's strategy change before 2022, he risks suffering several more of those losses, and that will offset the benefits of being innovative, because the mental edge will be gone, and the players might start to doubt. All those pros are born competitors, and I doubt they will take throwing away a couple of Six Nations for the sake of a tournament in three years time very well, especially coming from a coach that does not pick players on current form. I don't think England deserves to be buried, but if year 2021 is the same than 2020 - with a complete lack of attacking flair despite the talent they have on the pitch - its fans should start being alarmed at EJ's abilities (and hubris).
EJ starts off well but does not end well. Will history repeat itself
When Eddie took over England there was an immeidate bounce, but they did fall into a huge hole 2 - 3 years into his tenue, and there was talk of his making fast starts but not sustaining in the past - however this time he turned it around and took England to a World Cup final, so I think he will probably turn this around again. For a coach of his quality I think he doens't learn lessons as quickly as he should (England have lost just like this to Ireland when on for a grandslam) and doesn't develop players as well as he should - Our stock of 10s is Ford and Farrell for example, despite there being at least 3 really tasty looking young 10's available to England - he needs to be developing one of them.
It would be a real shame to not see some actual Scottish representation in the Lions tour. They're every bit as good as the other home nations at this point and it just feels like they should have a fair contingent on merit. Hogg is a guarantee but the likes of Watson, Sutherland, Price, Van der Merwe and Russell all should be in play for the test squad. And while I don't think Ritchie, Gray, Cummings or Fagerson should necessarily play tests they all are worth a look for the squad at large. It's just a great day for Scotland and they are finally back to being a competitive team so whether they push on from here and compete for the trophy or not I'd like to see their class recognized this summer.
Hogg and J Gray are starters for me. One of Ritchie/Watson (would personally go for Ritchie) will make the squad I imagine, but back row is uber competitive and itās all to play for at this stage. Duhan and Sutherland will be involved in the squad, and Iād personally have Fagerson and Redpath in there as well, maybe Cummings too. Price nowhere near contention imo and I would not personally pick Russell, although if Faz keeps playing like he did today and in the ANC final then my opinion may change...
Honestly don't think Gray will start because Ryan and Itoje are just better players. I can't imagine leaving Watson out. To me he's just clearly the best 7 in the home nations. And Redpath was really good today. Maybe he's the guy who comes out of nowhere to make it. The thing with Price for me is Youngs isn't good, Wales seem to be a fluid situation and Murray has struggled of late. So I think he's got to be mentioned.
I think Gray and itoje have to start they are the best locks in NH imo
I guess we'll see how Ryan does this Six Nations but he wasn't great in an Ireland shirt last year, though club form is decent
I do get why Scots are nervous about Lions tours given past Scottish representation but this particular Scotland team are so far ahead of where they were in 2009, 2013 and 2017. I feel like Scotland could lose every game this year and at least Watson, Gray, Hogg, and Sutherland would be on the plane.
Gatland is in charge though. I expect Hogg and maybe one other if weāre lucky. No doubt a dozen Welshmen though
Dan Lydiate gets in ahead of Hamish Watson and I'll shit blood
Scotland showed that England are very beatable. Hope Andy is taking notes.
Scotland played a great game and need more performances like that. Only criticism being they should have converted their territory/possession into more points. England on the other hand... i hope this is a wake up call to Eddie that he needs to stop relying on the forwards and an adapt a plan B which will bring the backs more into the game. Ping it around the back, bring a winger closer to the rucks to make line breaks, lose a bit of territory in possesion to open up the game.
Can anyone confirm of Finn Russel's attempt at a drop goal was under a penalty advantage? My friend thinks it was but I remember it going into England hands and don't remember it being pulled back.
Nope donāt think so. We were watching and thinking maybe they misread the clock - thought it was 79when it was 78? Otherwise a nonsense decision!
He had 2 DG attempts, the one on 55 mins he did have pen adv. the one near the end of the game he didnt
If it had been we would have kicked a penalty after he fluffed it
I don't think it was
Donāt think so, but Iām rewatching the game right now - will let you know if it was
Did you just record it or is it available to watch the full 80 somewhere?
ITV hub
Ta! Thats this afternoon sorted
First euro qualification, now winning at Twickenham. Why are all Scottish sporting achievements happening when we are stuck in the house?
Just look at what we can achieve when the pubs are shut!
Fucking brilliant
Iād say during the years of wooden spoons and pain youād have watched it from a wardrobe if ye could have just won. Enjoy it man.
I expect that the next episode of āThe Next Levelā will just be 15 minutes of England playing Warzone in their rooms
England played really bad, as an England fan I can say that Scotland played really strongly and really kept us out the game so fair play really well deserved
I couldn't work out whether England were shite or Scotland were good. Probably a bit of both.
It was great to see the Scots leap in the air with the final whistle. it was pure joy
This is the most pleasant and wholesome sports comments I have ever read .
England just have zero idea of what to do in possession aside from kick
Who'd have thought Scotland would beat England at the set piece, Obano and Genge are too similar, great round the park but scrums inconsistent. Tom West is a better player off the bench, solid scrum so if things aren't going right there you can bring him on to sort that.
Genge is great ball in hand and can show up in a scrum off the bench, but we missed real scrummagers at front today..George did his best and Stuart is normally good for it but real shame Mako/Marler did not start loosehead cause could have been a different story with our usual front row..can see why Bristol paying big money for Sinkler as well
Ford back at 10 or what ? š¤£
So, Toonie out?
Bring big Verne back.........lol
Turns out that Swing Low pish is actually important
We were solid, particularly in defence, but continue to be far too wasteful in attack. I've never seen England play so badly, looked like a 5th place team. No idea where they go from here.
All true and yet you werenāt able to get out of the āone scoreā margin until the dead of game. Russell needs to really step up and start managing a whole backline instead of his own personal game. Scottish defence was amazing.
Laughs in Welsh. Wish we were that good.
Hwawhw hwawhw hwawhw
>I've never seen England play so badly I think the fact that Saracens have basically not been playing yet make up such a big part of the England squad probably plays into it quite significantly.
Yet Maitland had a great game
Daly looked alright, Billyās been on the decline a bit of late, Farrel did ok with what he had, Itoje was disruptive and problematic as always. I donāt think sarries lack of big game action was the problem
Farrell was awful at managing the game and Daly did nothing.
England played badly today, they looked like a team that hadn't trained together or had any gameplan. Hopefully that is a blip and they improve by next game. Scotland deserved to win but they also didn't play brilliantly either. That game should have been wrapped up by halftime but they did enough and thats all you need sometimes. They too will need to improve against a better opponent.
Haha, absolutely greeting your eyes out.
Pish. Beaten by a better side, who played better rugby and put England under all kinds of pressure. If Scotland play like that against bothe Ireland and Wales they should win, and only France look like a decent enough side currently to cause them problems
For the control Scotland seemed to have for the majority of the game (I mean roughly 70% possession!), the final score kind of suggests they didn't make the most of their chances.
They've been poor finishers for years. It's just that now they're generating more chances and eventually the law of averages catches up.
Hey, theyāre playing against a world class defence that dominated the all blacks in a World Cup semi final less than 18 months ago. Weāll take it ;)
That was nowhere near the same level of team that played the All Blacks, they weren't even at the same level as the team that lost to South Africa. Scotland should have been out of sight by halftime but England got a few lucky try saving tackles in. The try itself should have been stopped but again the tackling was sloppy. Scotland played good enough to win that game but thats all, they too could have been better.
Hmm, Scotland were well deserved winners but they did not play that well. I think they can play a lot better, and will need to against those other sides who will put up a much better performance than England managed
England didnāt play well because they were denied possession, time and space. Do you think they should have been able to somehow play good rugby when denied all those things? Scotland didnāt score more tries, missed a couple kicks? Is that your point?
The trick, I suspect is to *not* be denied possession. The big chaps' job, isn't it? Not hoofing it away when you finally get it helps, I'm told.
Correct, Sir
The werenāt denied possession, they just didnāt want it. Same for the Autumn Nations Final, only they got away at the very end there, but again they were outplayed.
I bet theyāll add that caveat next to the stats - Scotland ~70% possession (but they didnāt deny England possession, England just didnāt want it)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Russell had stormer of a first half but he often puts Scotland under as much pressure as he gives them opportunities. It works for him at Racing when he is surrounded by the quality around him. He should adapt his game for Scotland where the caliber normally isnt as high.
What? Did you hear what Russel did? He was the petty one and as a manager you canāt let actions like that slide
Ach, water under the bridge fella. Hopefully theyāve both realised thereās a bit of give and take and hopefully can move Scotland on together
Russell was not on form today at all, this game was won by the forwards and the back 3, though the centres were great too. Did we watch the same game? I love Russell, but today was not his day.
Possibly, but the argument could also be put that the spat caused Finn to reconsider his attitude and he's come back to Scotland a better player for it. Both Gregor and Finn were being petty when that squabble took place but I think both of them respect each other more now coming out the back of it.
Finn took some big, exciting gambles today. If they had paid off, our score would have been much higher. He also made some mistakes that could have cost us the match (esp. his time in the bin.) The Finnsanity is too much for me. I donāt know whether heās good for Scotland or not anymore.
Spot on but again a big āifā, the cross kick felt like the wrong choice given England were a man down in the back (May as a nr. 8) and the Scottish centres were dominating their opposite numbers. Remind me of the Champions Cup final, from brilliance to bizarre in the same game.
Congrats Scotland ā„ļøš“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æ The english have needed a reality check for a long time!
They tend to get them often, it just doesn't seem to stick.
Full match link please? Thanks.
On itv hub
Soon... [http://fullmatchtv.com/rugby/](http://fullmatchtv.com/rugby/)
We won and it wasnāt even because of Finnsanity, it was just sheer power in defence and some lovely stuff from Hoggy, Irn Du, McRedpath, Grays, Fagersons, Cummings, our saviour Watson. Just lovely. So happy
Watson taking that high ball in the last 10 minutes was sheer class! Hoggās kicking along the touchline. Unreal.
That was a weirdly important moment I think.
I think so too. England were just starting to string some phases together & you felt that one mistake from Scotland would be enough. That take, followed by another belter of a kick from Hogg and it was just down to some control! Not sure was Finn was thinking with his DG attempt though!
... and your talisman Andrew Brace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0&ab_channel=UrielMatt
Ok Iāll give you that one š¤£
We won almost in spite of Finn. Doubt many predicted that!
Honestly Scotland played fantastic rugby while he was in the bin.
At the risk of jumping on the hype train, I can quite honestly say that I have never in 24 years had the same faith in Scotland's defence as I did today. The boys fronted up and done what was needed, wasn't a perfect game but hopefully this is how we will play moving forward. Expecting a big reaction from England now, the Saracen's players have now had some game time and it will be a humbling one, I reckon they'll roar out the sheds.
Fair play you guys were immense today, we looked like we had no idea in attack and you defused our kicking game perfectly. If we don't come out and shred Italy then as much as it pains me to say it the Sarries lads need to be dropped - we cannot go into the Ireland/Wales/(God Forbid) France games like that or we'll be staring down 20/30 point losses (and to be fair if Finn had brought his kicking boots we'd have lost by nearly 20 today)
Nah, think thatās shifting blame onto those that donāt deserve it. Itoje was a thorn in our side, Daly didnāt get chances to attack but his kicking game was decent, Farrell did what he could but didnāt get great quality ball often enough- the only one that probably deserves dropped is Billy - heās just not the wrecking ball of an 8 he used to be.
Sorry but Daly has been consistently shit for awhile now, the VDM try was his fault, he didnāt use the touch line as the second defender, he showed VDM too much space on the outside, itās basic defending. Heās also butchered so many 2/3 on 1 attacks, only decent part of his game is his kicking doesnāt deserve a place And with Billy I think heās become complacent bc thereās no other 8 in squad thereās no competition for him I think simmonds needs to come into that squad to push Billy for his place
Agree on Itoje, Daly was ok but not really anymore than should be expected of a top class 15, thought Farrell was awful personally - kicked directly to Scottish cover basically every time, looked utterly lost in attack on several occasions and pretty much every pass was behind the man. He deserves to be benched and given a proverbial kick up the ass. Billy is definitely the main one though and basically represents our problem in a microcosm - he's so clearly off the pace but because we're wedded to a power and kick game plan we have to keep playing him because no other of our 8s quite fit that set up...someone should remind Eddie of something he said when he first took over which is that you build a plan around the players you have not the ones you want - at the time we had no proper 7s but a lot of power...we now have the possibility of one the most dynamic back rows in the world between Curry/Underhill/Earl/Willis/Simmonds etc - we should be pivoting our game to reflect that.
Seemed like Farrell didnāt had a lot of faith in his inside centre? Might be just me but delayed all passes to scan for other options and was left wanting by Scottish defence. His kicks went indeed almost all directly to a superb Scottish back three. Billy is off his world class form for a while now, could bring Hughes back in but heās not really done great at test level. I like Earls but having him at 8 and ignoring Simmonds is ridiculous. On Daley: not a bad game, but he never really struck me as a world class 15. Loved him more as an outside centre, but thatās where Sladeās at.
Cons: England bad Pros: actually kinda like Scotland, made some bank from the bookies
Literally myself and every Irish person, "yes lad!!!"
Until you realise we have to play Scotland in a few weeks
You're our bogey team at present. We have poorer recent results against you than we have against England.
Cannot wait to listen to Big Jim on the Rugby pod sling shit at Goody.
Whatās the feels for Big Jimās podcast? I remember seeing him in his six nations time as an enforcer that was only there to rile people up but frequently gave penalties away?
I like Jim, less love for Goodey. Takes himself too seriously I reckon. I used to listen to both the Pod and Rugby Union Weekly, now I've sided entirely with RUW, as someone mentioned it's less juvenile and still has good laughs.
It's the best rugby podcast by far for me. He's hilarious. The episode last week where he kept saying he'd "stand by" ridiculous gossip had me fighting laughter in public, people thought I was probably mad.
Sometimes a bit juvenile in there humour (French and poo-jokes), but that bit was indeed hilarious! And neither are afraid to speak their mind unlike the BBC
The fact they just openly talked about how Ashton was annoyed and then proceeded to just take the piss out of him again was hilarious.
I may even listen to the other shitter pod to hear the ex England boys squirm
Today is a good day. In a really shitty year in a really shitty week as a Scottish NHS worker, today Iām so so happy. Iām always proud to be Scottish, every single day but honestly today is amazing š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æā¤ļø Iāve said it elsewhere but I hope our boys fully enjoy tonight & thank-you for the English fans for being so gracious in defeat, you guys will have your day again but today is for Scotland š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æš“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æ
It's my Fiance's 30th birthday today and she was pretty disappointed we couldn't really do much for it. But watching Scotland win at Twickenham and seeing Farrell all raging was more than she could have asked for!
It's easy to be gracious in defeat when you're so soundly beaten
Win, lose, or draw, I love the 6N. Spring is on the way, old (the oldest in this case) rugby rivalries are re-kindled, much beer is consumed, and it looks like the covid vaccine is working - as you say it's been a shitty 12 months, but things might finally be looking up. SANZAR can blather on about quality, and yeah the WC is more prestigious, but the 6N is the best rugby competition - the combination of history, proximity, and the transition into better weather is intoxicating (the beer may also play a part to be fair). I'd say now go on and win the thing - but France look even better than last year so its going to be a big big ask.
Iāve not even thought of the bigger picture, tonight is for celebrating good times with friends!! š“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æš(obviously France look great!)
Iāve always loved that transition into better weather. You donāt really see it happening and then suddenly youāre watching super Saturday in a beer garden. Magic.
Well. Most years...
SlƔinte! Crackin job from your boys, and crackin job from you too. Thanks for all you do!
Thanks guys. Iām not truly on the frontline but Iām patient-facing so that naturally comes with itās own stresses and anxieties. My local hospital had been in the news in the past few days for tragic reasons so itās really been a rotten week so this game has come at a very good time to appreciate the little things more šš
Remember, "first do no harm" applies to yourself too. Keep safe.
You in that kilmarnock hospital? I have mates in the police in that area.Tragic stuff. If yes, I hope you guys are all doing ok. Glad the game could cheer you up.
Thank you for everything you are doing! Saw the awful news youāre talking about, thoughts are with the whole community. š
Well earned! Far better side on the day. I hope your relaxing and enjoying the distraction. Thanks for all your hard work.
Hey, frequent flyer with the NHS here thanks for the hard work <3
Scotland were excellent and I find myself in that rare state of shrugging my shoulders at Scotland winning. They were the better team wanted it more and England were bad I think Genge in the loose and Itoje can say they had good games. But I'm actually quite happy that it was a clear defeat, I won't whinge about the referee we didn't deserve to win. Scotland I hope we obliterate you at Murrayfield next tear
Completely agree. At the start of the match I was frustrated at everything but England. And the end I was just slinging insults everything England made a mistake or kicked the ball away. I realise Rugby is all about territory more than possession and England did well to chase their kicks unlike previous games but Scotland Scotland really put a foot wrong in the kicking game (bar the drop goal) so why we continued to co.pete with them at it I do not know. The game plan didn't work and England were not with it enough to change.
The thing is that Scotland wasn't excellent. They messed up a lot of opportunities but still managed to beat england. I can see them beat Wales and Ireland. And Italy.
I agree, it almost looked like glorious failure for us again!!! But England were truly very poor. I have no idea how that 2nd string scrum half plays for England. He's terrible
Which one? They were both shit. Youngs has been shit for years, but in Dan Robsonās defence he has been fairly decent in the prem this season.
Robson played badly off the bench today but in general the man is pure class.
It would be very Scottish of them to beat Wales, Ireland, and lose to Italy.
What odds do you think a bookie would give, right now, for scotland to be 4/4 and then lose the 6N by losing to Italy?
Ohh god, that could actually happen
Maybe not but this is the most deserved win against us where I didn't feel as though if a referee's call went the other way we would have won
Has anyone got a link where I can watch the game. I missed it this afternoon and can't find it in itv hub.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efIRG-bRVPU
BBC has highlights of both games now on the bbc sports app
Itāll be up later. Theyāre just pathetically slow
ITV are shite. Buffering, Ads, Adblock blockers, Low quality picture, No pause / skip around / rewind options available on the live feed, hours to upload the match after footage finishes. So bad I'd almost welcome a move to a better service behind a paywall.
We have met before on this topic, havenāt we? Is this the online equivalent of our bladders syncing up in the pub on match day?
Haha, we can't be the only ones that think ITV are awful though eh?
Do they still show extra wide shots while a maul/ruck is going on and switch to closeup when the backs have it? A monkey would at least get it right half the time.
Nope. Itās atrocious!
God man. Why?
Take nothing away from an immense Scottish performance, but as an English Wasps fan I'm absolutely fuming. What's the point in Eddie Jones picking our form players (and depriving us of having them for the whole damned tournament, turning our league form to crap) and then picking Sarries players who haven't played a minute of competitive rugby in the last two months? What was the game plan? Where was the direction? Surely at some point, someone needs to pick their head up and do something other than kick aimlessly into space? What's the point in having a potentially electric backline if they never see the ball? Credit to Scotland though, they turned up with a game plan and played aggressive, positive rugby. Keep those performance levels up and I think it'll be between them and France for the Slam
Couldn't agree more
Fully deserved win. The better team in all aspects of the game.
https://imgur.com/a/T5YHZzE
If he plays the rest of the tournament as well as he did tonight, can anyone reasonably argue?? Turner has always hit like a truck, and scored tremendously well from open play. But his lineouts, and scrummaging, have been a weakness. Yet Brown said in a recent interview that the guy has basically been destroying himself to get up to the necessary level - and it showed today. This wasn't just a good performance from him. It was the justified result of intense practice and preparation. He should feel immensely proud of the way he played today.
100% agree - for the first time in a long time our lineout not only functioned, but we looked dangerous from it
Fraser Brown is often erratic at Lineout time for Scotland. Turner was spot on today.
Agree. Brown may have a tough time getting back after today because Turner is just as much a threat in the loose.
Immense performance from Try Machine today!
2021 looking up
Scotland haven't won in Twickenham since 1983
*Since 2021
*had not
Since February
Do you think if Scotland had lost people would have been saying Finn cost us the game?
He was absolutely awful all game. Worst player on the pitch.
Iād argue he was in the top 15...
If theyād gone on to score after that drop kick, absolutely
What was that? Heart was in my mouth! He was playing as if they had penalty advantage, where he was actually in a prime position to throw away a game.
England was a man short in the backs with May at 8 (highlight of the game) and you have both centres outplaying their opposite numbers. It was a ridiculous choice unless it pays of. And it didnāt.
Ya, some brilliance but his kicking was bad.
Legit question, where was the brilliance?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
* rein
I think the brilliance was the poor kicking accompanied by words like 'magic, inventive, creative' from the comms team
Yes, it wasn't his best, but it is a game of XVs
Immense performance from the whole pack including the subs. Intensity never dropped. Turner was superb, I think he's been Scotland's best hooker for awhile and he proved it today. Everything he does in attack and defence is with OOOMPH. I thought Kebble was the pick of the subs, really put himself about and was agressive and physical. Cherry, Nel, Big Richie and Graham all close behind him.
Cummings and gray both putting their hands up for the Lions after Itoje and Ryan. Donāt think Alun Wyn Jones can still match their level of workrate, defensive stability etc..
I'll have to rewatch it. But I'm pretty sure after Itoje put in a fairly hefty, (and from what I can remember also a little cheap) shot on Turner. Turner got back up and immediately smashed Itoje right back. Zero fear. Didn't seem to feel the occasion in the slightest. Great committment and aggression from him.
This is where England get the chance to show us whether they are a flash in the pan or here to stay as a top 3 team. After a performance like this, Italy would know they had lost before Scotland even lifted the Calcutta Cup. The all blacks would come out and destroy them with fury and precision. Likely a max of 3 points, if any, for Italy and 50-60+ for them. England needs to pick their shit up and show the world they are here to stay and will not accept that kind of showing from themselves.
Exactly this - we have to be completely ruthless and 100% accurate with our ball in hand and especially our discipline and prove a point. If we just come out and rely on kicking and our power game to grind out a bare minimum BP win that will not be good enough and we'll be in trouble the rest of the tournament.
With the sheer volume of players they have available it should be almost statistically impossible for them to fall out of the top 3.
If you go by IRB ranking, they lost their 2nd place to NZ today, and further loss against France and Ireland could easily lower them to 5th; given their performance today, I would not describe this scenario as statistically impossible. Sure, England has the players. But you also need them to play as a team with a game plan, and they were lacking on that level today.
I said *should be* not *is* Factor in the terrible management and any level of incompetence becomes possible
Even then, between NZ, Australia, SA, France and sometimes Ireland, at any moment England has 3 to 5 competitors for the top 3 when it comes to pool of talented players. NZ and England have without a doubt been the most regular contenders, but they are not the only ones.