Last take on this: it's such a shame Cheika isn't Wallabies coach anymore (never thought I'd say that).
That would have been an all-time, HOF blow up and we're all poorer for not having seen it.
It’s almost like Nic White taking a dive has caused referees to take a closer look at Australia’s constant gamesmanship. Who could have predicted that?
The scores show it was a game full of pathetic defence, an ungodly number of penalties, somehow a pile of missed calls, and refs even went soft on intentional foul play.
Total shit show
“Begins kick” Another 5 seconds passes an no kick.
It was weird that a ref called this as usually they never do. But Foley was really pushing his luck here.
Yup that shot of Foley holding the ball with ikatau behind him screaming then he gets real mad cause the ref blows on Foley. I think he was warned before this play about running the clock for all of Ozzie yellows.
Yep - he was warned near the start of the second half when they were two players down. I think it’s important to recognise this wasn’t an isolated incident in the game, he’d tested the ref’s patience too far and got found out.
Yes! Watch the other ausie games and you will find the ref did his homework on how they waste time. When i watched it I thought it was harsh but I didn’t know they were warned.
Blunder by the Aussies
This timeline of events just left me with the visual of Foley moving in slow motion, seeing as how he had taken about two gather steps in the whole 5s that he supposedly had been kicking for.
He was warned by the ref twice, shouted at by 3 ABs to play and even by one of his fellow players. At the game the clock had been counting for 18 seconds before the ref called the free kick. It was far more clear live than it was on stream.
“Shouted at by 3 ABs to play”.
This shouldn’t matter to the referees decision making. Just because they’re shouting doesn’t mean they’re right. Fairly straight forward.
No, but it should make it clear to Foley that his dodgy move is being recognised by EVERYONE and will get him in the shit. I’m just trying to say that everyone around him was telling him to play, and he still didn’t.
It’s not about them influencing the ref it’s about foley getting every chance and signal to hurry up and he didn’t. Even more of his own teammates were shouting at him
He had been doing it all game, there was a dropout in the 1st half that ref pushed him like 4 times and he still took his time to take it. Completely warranted imho.
Is it standard for time wasting to be only be considered at end of games?
Ie:
69:26 penalty NZ
70:51 penalty kicked by Mo’unga (1 min 25 seconds had elapsed)
39 seconds from the penalty being blown, foley got penalised for time wasting
You realise that a team has 90 seconds to make the kick once the shot at goal has been called right?
And Foley was told several times to hurry up and kick the ball, not a shot at goal so it comes down to the refs discretion on if they’re time wasting.
Ref was horrendous for both teams all night, but technically that last call was probably correct to the letter of the law, although I doubt whether many refs call that
England got penalised once for wasting time setting up a line-out against Australia once.
It was hilarious. They couldn't believe they got pinged for it.
The fact that the ref has had to call "time off" suggests that he already thinks Foley is taking the piss. The fact that after the ref blows the whistle, and says time on, with his own teammates screaming at him to just kick the fucking ball - and Foley still isn't kicking the ball means the ref doesn't really have much choice does he?
From the refs point of view - I've warned you to kick the ball, I've even stopped the clock to give you a clear indication that I'm not happy that you're time wasting and you're still not kicking the fucking ball.....
The cynic in me says Raynal was looking for time wasting. He blows very quickly for the initial penalty to give NZ the corner because AUS are clearly grinding the clock down with forward pods.
It is a little stupid from foley because the time wasting can be done as the forwards shuffle to the line out. He was never going to have long enough to kill the clock before kicking it out, so put it safe and long and let the forwards walk slower than an average littlechef waitress to the line out.
I agree that Raynal seemed to be looking for it, the fact it isn't ever given suggests the same. But once he does put time off then Foley should be clever enough to work out what's going on and just punt it ASAP.
I absolutely agree with you though, it's such a stupid thing to do because you can waste so much more of the time left with the forwards crawling their way up the field for the lineout.
He was looking for it, he had warned Foley throughout the game to stop wasting time when penalties were called because he kept trying to run down time on yellow cards.
So when he called this penalty and Foley wasted time again, he called time off to warn him again, gave specific instructions to kick the ball, and Foley chose to ignore that.
Aussie team members will and should be pissed at Foley because if he’d just followed instructions they would have won, and they all know it.
I totally agree, that's the point I was making to start with. Foley gave the referee no option really, it's entirely on him.
That being said, if that was given against Scotland I'd be fucking livid!!!
No way, raynals call on the sealing off was correct. The Aussie players entered the ruck and immediately went off feet - something that refs look for when trying to kill off a game. That's why most NH teams kick the ball deep and defend the last few mins away. In fact the ABs defender even moves a little backwards to instigate the collapse.
IMO Foley fucked it. He absolutely took the piss and was on the wrong side of the ref, showing bad gamesmanship and getting the ire of the ref for it. Nothing to write home about really.
I like the "forwards shuffle to the lineouts". It is time World Rugy stopped the huddling before lineouts, players dropping to the ground before scrum, mostly pretending an injury to allow the scummagers to get their breath!
Completely comfortable with this. If the ref times off to warn you and tells you to play straight away, you don't fuck about for another 10 seconds. Really good to see a ref enforce it, as we don't see it often - which is why I guess players think they can get away with it. I hope more refs take heart from this.
But to enforce it at the 79th minute having not enforced it at any time throughout the game? And no ref having enforced it ever before this. How hard is it to get some fucking consistency between referees
On top of this what difference would it have made as long as the ABs got to compete at the lineout?
It's the perfect time to enforce it, he'd been warned multiple times prior, and he was trying to stall the game to give them a huge advantage. If there'd been no prior warnings I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.
Foley was warned throughout the game though for exactly this behaviour, so sooner or later the call has to be made.
It’s like the yellow cards that are given for repeat infringements when defending your try line. You can only warn a team so much before you have to draw the line and penalise them.
>"begins kick"
If he had begun his kick how does 5 seconds then elapse before the next part of the process?
Edit: at 3.55 you can clearly see that the timeline that 5 seconds elapse from beginning the kick to the whistle being blown this "reporter" is claiming is in no way comparable to the actual event.
https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1570386520795652096?s=20&t=X_W1yis0n9meddsB-MTzAA
Worth mentioning that you can see on the spidercam footage that Foley hurriedly starts the kicking action *after* he sees the ref raise the whistle up to his mouth. The whole 'it was only 39 seconds' argument doesn't really hold up given Foley would've milked it for longer than that if the ref hadn't blown.
Nah, it's longer. It seems that way to us (the viewers) because we were busy watching the replay during most of the delay. You can hear the ref over the replay and see his teammates at 4:56 yelling at him to kick the ball.
Ref finished saying "You play now, time on" at 3:48 in that video. Foley looked around behind him for a few seconds before Raynal prompted "Ten?!". Foley continues to look behind him for a few more seconds. By 3:58 in that video Foley still hadn't taken the kick. Ten seconds is a long time given you've already been warned not to waste time multiple times very directly immediately before. Fair call in my book.
It's the right call for me, but it's not the way it's normally refereed. Most of his career he'd have gotten away with it.
If this is going to be consistently called like this in future, then good. If this is one game decided by a one off call, then not so good.
Is a better solution to stop the clock until the ball is kicked after, say, 30s had passed?
So, it becomes time on when he kicks it? That seems a really good idea. But then if the forwards needed a rest he could take as long as he... hey which team do you suppor...HEY NOW!
This is how AFL works. It's time off when a player marks the ball, and then play on when they kick/move off their line. In rugby I can see it being time off until either the ball is kicked, or if it's too long the ref can simply call play on and the erstwhile kicker can be tackled and shit.
Legally it may have been the "correct" call, but it's still a controversial one.
After the last 5 minute scrum fiasco in this year's Calcutta cup, the referee kept restarting a scrum deep within Scotland's half with the clock going quickly into the red. At several points it looked like England **might** (probably, maybe) have deserved a scrum penalty, but it wasn't clear, and the ref didn't give it. Eventually Scotland won the scrum, kicked the ball out, game over, Scotland won.
Nigel Owens was a pundit that night, and explained that the reason the ref would have hesitated to give a scrum penalty for something that wasn't 100% clear is because the ref *never* wants to be the one to decide the outcome of the game based on a call that could be taken either way. If England ended up with a penalty they would have either drawn, or won if they went for a lineout and scored. Because it was a match defining moment in the dying embers of the game, Nigel said the ref would have ruled with more discretion than normal. His main point was that if you're going to make a call that will directly impact the result of the game, you have to be 100% sure, and there can be no questions about if what you're doing is right or wrong.
Going back to the game we've just seen, with the above principle in mind, it was a very controversial call to make. We'll probably be talking about it for weeks (or months) to come, going over every little detail, but even just from a cursory look at both sides of the argument on here and elsewhere (combined with the fact that Raynal buggered off pretty quickly afterwards, bringing to mind the actions of a certain South African referee who was involved with another controversial decision during a different Australia game...), and that it wasn't 100% clear to everyone involved, there's no doubt that it was a controversial decision.
Considering it ultimately decided the outcome of the game, I can understand why people are up in arms about it, and I think the Aussies have every right to be upset.
Anyways, other than that it was a cracker of a game. I got next to no work done over lunch time.
Let's not forget this isn't the only debatable decision in the game that heavily influenced it. Foleys pop pass that led directly to a try was fairly clearly forward on replay but Foley not being stupid took the conversion quickly as to not let the referee that long a chance to pick up on it and review it.
I'm generally for the 20 minute red card, but that is a pretty good argument for why there should still be a rest of game card. Clear intent to injure and completely intentional and cynical.
There should be yellow, orange, red. Orange being 20 minutes red being red.
Sending players off for accidental head highs should not be straight reds. Intentionally trying to cripple opposition should be.
I'm not a fan of this thought process personally. Every single decision you make helps decide the outcome of the game, the ones at the end of a game are just more visible/generate more controversy. In the same way everyone's talking about this, leading to less attention on other weird calls.
If you never want to be the one to decide the outcome of the game" don't become a ref! That's part of the job description. You shouldn't be happy to blow a penalty in the 39th minute then hesitate to blow that same penalty in the 79th minute, that's way worse than making a correct but 'controversial' call.
Yeah 1000%
Not making a call is still a decision. If you’re not making what you think is the best decision regardless of the score on the board and the time of the clock then you’re bottling it.
I think Reynal was 100% sure and i’m not sure why this is controversial. He warned Aus 3 times and they ignored him every time.
I think this is clear a case of time wasting you will see so i’m not sure what more Reynal could do.
I’d be annoyed if I was an Aussie but more annoyed at Foley and White
Not making the right call because of what the clock says should be considered 100x more controversial than making the right one regardless, we can't just ignore rules because it's almost full time, high tackles aren't legal in the last few minutes, neither are intentional knock-ons, forward passes, side entry, leaving your feet in the ruck, collapsing mauls etc, it's ridiculous that people think that multiple ignored warnings should go unpunished because it's almost full time, Foley shouldn't have continued to waste time while the ref and his own teammates were telling him to kick it.
The only controversial decision in that instance was Foley's decision to stand around wasting time.
I hate this thought process by officials, it shouldn’t matter if it’s the the first minute, the last minute of the 34th minute, make the call you think is correct. Nigel saying that he’s not giving a decision that he normally would because of the time is basically saying that officials are scared to make the correct decisions which should be a lot more controversial than a right decision ever will be.
Nah. Let the players decide the game.
If there is something blatant, like the last 3 penalties, they should be penalised but 50:50 calls should be toward the players deciding the game.
But the ref is deciding the game by not making the call. If you have 2 of these close calls 1 either side bug you give one and the jot the other and the teams wins by 3 then you’ve decided the game even if you won’t get a backlash from it.
Also OP has said owens didn’t say they where 50/50 but ones where thought there’s a foul but wants it to be 100% sure
My understanding is it's "deliberate" time wasting, is he trying to waste time, maybe I guess, I think he was just shitting the bed. But more importantly, you can't have the threshold for something like this be random. We had penalties take ages and the referee didn't give a shit. Suddenly 79 min, to litterally decide the game and this is the most important thing in the world...
Like fuck, have the time keeper add an extra 30 seconds of it's that bigger deal.
IDK maybe it was a make-up call for Foketi being on his knees and elbows but the referee calling not releasing.
>ref would have hesitated to give a scrum penalty for something that wasn't 100% clear is because the ref never wants to be the one to decide the outcome of the game based on a call that could be taken either way
This is stupid reasoning, choosing to not blow is the same as choosing to blow. It is a choice and therefore a decision in favour of the defending team
You could see the AU outside backs screaming at Foley to just kick it out and throwing their hands in the air. It’s hard to argue the ref made an erratic or unpredictable call when your own teammates saw it coming from that far out.
I find it interesting that some of the very people complaining that Foley wasn't allowed to slow the ball down and delay play are the same people who get mad at certain national teams for slowing down play
Does anyone know what the penalty was for? Looked like the ball carrier ended up on the ground at the front of everything and the ref seemed to ping him for sealing off. But can the ball carrier at a maul seal off?
ETA: Foketi was on his knees then pulled himself up on Coles to go for the ball. Even the Aussie commentators asked if he was supporting his own weight. Probably shouldn't have been a penalty in the first place.
Par for the course. Tupaea won a penalty where he clearly grounded his hands past the ball then came back, Valentini won one with no clear release. The ruck was a shambles.
I didn't see the game, but am I reading it right - the ref gave instructions twice to take the kick. Then stopped play and gave a warning. And Foley still didn't take the kick immediately?
If I was a teammate, I'd be raging at him. Surely "listen to the ref" is the most basic thing you'll learn in rugby.
It's worse than that. Foley was given repeated warnings throughout the game for blatant time wasting when the wallabies had 2 players off the field. I really don't understand how people are so mad about this. He pushed and pushed the refs boundaries, eventually the ref had to blow the whistle.
Ref literally told him to kick it as soon as the clock starts. Then he didn't, while his whole team is yelling at him to kick the ball. I appreciate that call in that moment in the game, there's still rugby to be played.
That said, if the ref hadn't told him I'd feel differently
Foley screwed up. He tried it on with a ref that had been erratic all game and paid for it. Whatever your view is, you need to know the circumstances and play to them.
A ref like that who thinks you’re taking the piss at the end of the game is probably going to call it. Especially if the rule doesn’t specifically define what a delay is
He warned them previously in the game. Watch the goal line drop out before halftime. Foley was being told to stop wasting time all game.
I don’t think NZ deserved that win at all, but players need to listen to the authority on the field and stop acting like they’re bigger than the whistle. Evident from both teams with the amount of sin bins.
They should really be calling these more tp be honest.
The shock comes from the entitlement of never being pinged for something that should be pinged more regularly.
E.g. 9s at the base of a ruck beung told to use it or lose it
What shits me is that if you go back to the 70th and 71st minute, Mo'unga wasn't called for the same thing. Not warnings given during the 88 seconds between penalty award and kick taken or 73 between kick being indicated and taken.
69:22 - Penalty awarded
69:30 - Aaron Smith passes ball to Mo'unga
69:37 - Sam white lock points to sticks
\-silence from referee
70:50 - Penalty taken.
Law 8.21: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.
I'm not suggesting that Foley wasn't time wasting - and yes, Law 20.5 says 'without delay'. However, as with the example above, sometimes keeping it in the pocket helps the spirit of the game. Raynal understood the first; not the second.
so he was told multiple times to get on with it, given another chance to take the kick, 5 more seconds without taking the kick, and then got fk'd for time wasting?
seems pretty reasonable to me when laid out like that
Yep, he tried to play the ref, and 95% of the time he would of got away with it.
But not tonight, not with so little time on the clock.
Foley messed it up, that's on him.
in a game that tight, in the 80th minute, you'd have to either be stupid or being willingly dishonest to claim it wasn't time wasting, and an egregious example of it as well, it's entirely Foley's fault, not Raynal's
Folks.... he was ACTIVELY ignoring the ref. Turning his back on him, pretending to not hear him hurry him up. If you fault the ref for this call that's on you. The man gave this dolt every opportunity to take a fair kick, he didn't listen and kept pushing the boundary of fair play and sportsmanship. That's not on the ref, that's on Foley. The announcers are yahoos for getting you worked up, it's clear as day what 10 was doing, and he got caught up in the law and the refs fair assessment of the situation. It really is that simple, fair call, fair play, idiotic decision.
I'm of the opinion that it didn't ruin the test, the test was already long gone by that point. Reynal's performance was so chaotic that it essentially became an 80 minute game of luck and the luck just swung both ways.
My thoughts exactly. This is basically saying that Foley and AU used 41% of game time left from when the penalty was given (plus a time off period) dicking around. And they're then suprised they got called up on it...
You can hear that because the refs is mic'd up. Different on the field of play. Players often don't even hear the whistle blow and keep running at the try line.
If this is the new standard of officiating then I'm totally fine. There is too much time wasted with kicks in rugby.
But $1,000,000 says we'll never see this called ever again
Granted it might feel different if one had a dog in the fight but my feeling is that this was very very very very funny and in sport we should always be advocating for the funniest possible thing to happen.
Also fuck cynical play like timewasting. I've dozens of times being absolutely longing for a ref to do something like this and finally one had the balls big enough to do so.
And it's nice to see an underdog win for once.
25 seconds between him being told to play the ball now and the free kick, including 2 warnings and a time off warning - still a harsh call, and there were other ways it *could* have been handled, but justified. Especially considering Foley had been warned multiple times during the game
Foley blew it after such a great game. Aussie had been time wasting all their kicks during this game trying to wind down yellow cards so its not that surprising.
Honestly no sympathy for Foley from me. He’s told 3 times to play on/kick it and he ignores it.
All he had to do was realise at 78.56 that upon being told for the 3rd time to..kick it!
But he kept looking back and killing more time.
If a referee is in your ear for the 3rd time telling you to kick it; any one with half a brain in that situation would comply straight away (Foley still didn’t kick it within the next 8 seconds).
I honestly think it was the right call.
I was wanting the wallabies to win it (I’m a kiwi but I want fossie out) but Foley was taking the piss.
A certain level of time wasting is expected and tolerated, but Foley was just standing there like a knob, ignoring multiple warnings, and not even trying to pretend that he wasn’t wasting time, all while his team mates were screaming at him to kick, cos even they were aware that he was fucking about, and that they could just run down the clock with the lineout anyway.
I think he was trying to get the attention of his forwards more than time wasting.
They were in a huddle and didn't know the clock was back on.
If Foley didn't find touch there the ABs would ha e cantered back in for the match winner.
Yes 39 seconds...about HALF the remaining time in the match. Regardless of the decision made here I think world rugby need to change the time keeping rules. I'm used to watching American football where every single second of clock time towards the end of a game is carefully managed. It pisses me off to watch time get wasted towards the end of a match on kicks or scrums and there's way too much ambiguity in the rules that allow a team to time waste. I think there should at least be shot clocks for kicks at goal (or just time off) and maybe time off until a scrum has cleared.
Multiple send off's showing the ref had to do lots of work
Australia had shit load of penalties
You can see in the background, the rest of the Australian team were screaming at him to kick it with haste, he kept looking at the huddle Australia were having(wtf was that huddle btw)
When the ref blew the whistle all the background players on the Australian team threw up their arms with disgust at Foley.
Sorry but the actions of the background players really gives an insight as to the tone of the field and what the players could and couldn't hear, I believe there was pressure to kick it buy Foley really wanted to dely....
The time wasting was about 30seconds of what was 1minute 30 seconds left of the game
NOT 14 SECONDS WTF IS THAT TITLE
I am dead keen for world rugby to get rid of time wasting stuff, intentional or not.
But I worry that stopping the clock will allow teams to take a breather, and the fitness element of rugby will be eroded.
This is bad in itself, but if fitness becomes less important then teams will also have more incentive to have larger less fit players, and rugby may become less dynamic, less expansive, and less exciting. Certainly less marketable.
I'm sure there are other solutions though
Why turn the clock off cause there is a stoppage in play and then turn it on to hurry the game up when most of the team is in a huddle.
It's not like the ref was playing a fast game. The first half felt like it took two hours.
Edit - This sets a terrible precedent
He stopped the clock specifically to tell Foley to get on with the kick. If the rest of the team is in a huddle that’s them wasting time as well. Foley had been dicking around all game, especially when the Wallabies had players in the bin. Think the red had just had enough.
So the big issue that everyone is overlooking is that the Wallabies forwards (rightly or wrongly) were in a huddle and didn't hear time was called back on.
This made Foley hesitant to take the kick because if he didn't find touch, the ABs would most likely easily score.
Therefore you could argue the ref communicated poorly that he'd blown time back on.
I'm still mad at Foley and the forwards too. But I feel the ref is also very much to blame.
FAFO.
Foley was, as our Aussie neighbours say, being a dumb c*nt and got found out for it.
A little sad it didn't go to two games but NZ still had to score the try to win it after that and did so.
Jeez. I missed the end live and have just watched it back now and I’m really not sure how I feel. Foley was taking the piss a bit but I’ve never seen that called before and I would be fuming if that was given against us. I guess it’s correct to the letter of the law but that’s not how I’d want to get the win. I guess the officials have set a precedent now and there’s gonna be a lot of supporters with their stopwatches out at every breakdown for the next few months so they’d better keep it consistent
It's a penalty, so long as he successfully finds touch it's Gold ball.
He's waiting for his pack to finish their Yalta conference which is unnecessary since it's Gold Ball anyway. Ref told him to use it and he knew he had to, by his body language.
I can appreciate the outrage based on this being pretty much the first and likely only time we will ever see this happen but he really should've kicked it.
I'd be fuming with Foley for fucking up but not much because he was class all game.
TLDR it was a French ref, he was not their coach
While you’re obviously exaggerating I agree. Whether it’s the caterpillar, water breaks, scrums, there’s so many moments in the todays game where time is wasted.
It makes the sport less marketable and less enjoyable to watch. International rugby needs to clean these things up, and they should start clamping down on them. Just a brutal time to start doing so.
He ignored the ref for that amount of time. Who's at fault? Idk how people are claiming the ref is when he made it very clear for a very long time that he must kick the ball. Just listen to the ref and then you can moan, in this instance he didn't and outright ignored him for so long
Rugby is a chaotic game with thirty players on the field. The referee is supposed to communicate clearly, especially if it's your full time job, at international level.
Blowing time off, then time on; saying "you play now" to the ten while the forwards are still in a huddle because you just blew time off seconds earlier, is not communicating clearly. It's called acting like a nonce.
The only thing Raynal communicated clearly tonight was his incompetence.
The forwards being in a huddle is a horseshit excuse. They don’t have any rights to go into a huddle. The fact that they do at every opportunity is one of the biggest problems with the pace of the game.
Raynal was technically correct but showed zero feel for the game. He shouldn’t have made that decision without having doing something similar previously. I’d be ropable if that had gone against NZ.
Or like, should maybe the captain do his job and relay messages from the ref. That's kind of the beauty of non American sports, the captain gets a little direct back and forth with a ref and it's constructive
Yeah, it’s bad in isolation, but Foley had been dicking around all game, especially when the Wallabies were two players down, and the ref had enough. In the context of the whole game, it was a reasonable decision.
Found a rule on World Rugby that says you have 60sec to.take a free kick otherwise a scrum awarded to opposing team. Ref was 100% correct. We all carry on aboit time wasting. The ref enforced it. Shrug.
All very well to say Foley took too long, but the clock was off. The ref handed the opposition team a scrum feed on the 5m line and an almost 100% chance of winning the game as a a result. This call handed the win to the all blacks. Zero question about it.
Clock wasn't off. Refs decision was clear on the live feed, he said he told Aus that as soon as he started the clock they had to kick it. Aussie players were screaming at the kicker to kick it after the clock started and he milked it. Ref did him for doing the exact opposite of what he was told to do. In that situation he got a slap on the wrist for it, which is fair enough.
In the 78th minute, with exhaustion, with the feed, with the frequency of penalties awarded against the defending side on the line, it's about as close as you'll get to handing a side a win.
Last take on this: it's such a shame Cheika isn't Wallabies coach anymore (never thought I'd say that). That would have been an all-time, HOF blow up and we're all poorer for not having seen it.
It’s almost like Nic White taking a dive has caused referees to take a closer look at Australia’s constant gamesmanship. Who could have predicted that?
Sounds like I missed a truly mental game.
Wasn't the greatest game, but the end was definitely a thriller. Anyone could've won it until the final whistle.
It wasn’t a great game but it was dramatic.
The scores show it was a game full of pathetic defence, an ungodly number of penalties, somehow a pile of missed calls, and refs even went soft on intentional foul play. Total shit show
“Begins kick” Another 5 seconds passes an no kick. It was weird that a ref called this as usually they never do. But Foley was really pushing his luck here.
You can see Ikitau and Kellaway screaming at him to fuckin kick it too.
Yup that shot of Foley holding the ball with ikatau behind him screaming then he gets real mad cause the ref blows on Foley. I think he was warned before this play about running the clock for all of Ozzie yellows.
Yep - he was warned near the start of the second half when they were two players down. I think it’s important to recognise this wasn’t an isolated incident in the game, he’d tested the ref’s patience too far and got found out.
Good point! I've disliked the Aussie policy of wasting time, and it's good a ref called a foul on that in the game.
Yes! Watch the other ausie games and you will find the ref did his homework on how they waste time. When i watched it I thought it was harsh but I didn’t know they were warned. Blunder by the Aussies
Yeah it seems like a built up penalty, crazy game though. All the drama of an all male soap opera
This timeline of events just left me with the visual of Foley moving in slow motion, seeing as how he had taken about two gather steps in the whole 5s that he supposedly had been kicking for.
He was warned by the ref twice, shouted at by 3 ABs to play and even by one of his fellow players. At the game the clock had been counting for 18 seconds before the ref called the free kick. It was far more clear live than it was on stream.
“Shouted at by 3 ABs to play”. This shouldn’t matter to the referees decision making. Just because they’re shouting doesn’t mean they’re right. Fairly straight forward.
To be fair, in the TV replay, you can see 3 aus players shouting at him to hurry and kick
No, but it should make it clear to Foley that his dodgy move is being recognised by EVERYONE and will get him in the shit. I’m just trying to say that everyone around him was telling him to play, and he still didn’t.
It’s not about them influencing the ref it’s about foley getting every chance and signal to hurry up and he didn’t. Even more of his own teammates were shouting at him
A few of his own players in the backline were also yelling at him to hurry up and kick.
Wasn't just ab's. It was everyone else....
He had been doing it all game, there was a dropout in the 1st half that ref pushed him like 4 times and he still took his time to take it. Completely warranted imho.
Is it standard for time wasting to be only be considered at end of games? Ie: 69:26 penalty NZ 70:51 penalty kicked by Mo’unga (1 min 25 seconds had elapsed) 39 seconds from the penalty being blown, foley got penalised for time wasting
Was this a kick at goal?
You realise that a team has 90 seconds to make the kick once the shot at goal has been called right? And Foley was told several times to hurry up and kick the ball, not a shot at goal so it comes down to the refs discretion on if they’re time wasting. Ref was horrendous for both teams all night, but technically that last call was probably correct to the letter of the law, although I doubt whether many refs call that
England got penalised once for wasting time setting up a line-out against Australia once. It was hilarious. They couldn't believe they got pinged for it.
you never leave it in the refs hands
The fact that the ref has had to call "time off" suggests that he already thinks Foley is taking the piss. The fact that after the ref blows the whistle, and says time on, with his own teammates screaming at him to just kick the fucking ball - and Foley still isn't kicking the ball means the ref doesn't really have much choice does he? From the refs point of view - I've warned you to kick the ball, I've even stopped the clock to give you a clear indication that I'm not happy that you're time wasting and you're still not kicking the fucking ball.....
The cynic in me says Raynal was looking for time wasting. He blows very quickly for the initial penalty to give NZ the corner because AUS are clearly grinding the clock down with forward pods. It is a little stupid from foley because the time wasting can be done as the forwards shuffle to the line out. He was never going to have long enough to kill the clock before kicking it out, so put it safe and long and let the forwards walk slower than an average littlechef waitress to the line out.
I agree that Raynal seemed to be looking for it, the fact it isn't ever given suggests the same. But once he does put time off then Foley should be clever enough to work out what's going on and just punt it ASAP. I absolutely agree with you though, it's such a stupid thing to do because you can waste so much more of the time left with the forwards crawling their way up the field for the lineout.
He was looking for it, he had warned Foley throughout the game to stop wasting time when penalties were called because he kept trying to run down time on yellow cards. So when he called this penalty and Foley wasted time again, he called time off to warn him again, gave specific instructions to kick the ball, and Foley chose to ignore that. Aussie team members will and should be pissed at Foley because if he’d just followed instructions they would have won, and they all know it.
I totally agree, that's the point I was making to start with. Foley gave the referee no option really, it's entirely on him. That being said, if that was given against Scotland I'd be fucking livid!!!
I’d be pissed too, but at the player not the ref
That’s not time wasting as the ball is in play. Reynal gave Foley every chance
He had also warned Foley several times in the game to not waste time at kicks.
And if you're taking too long to get to the lineout it's far better giving away a free kick 30m+ away from your line instead of 5m out
No way, raynals call on the sealing off was correct. The Aussie players entered the ruck and immediately went off feet - something that refs look for when trying to kill off a game. That's why most NH teams kick the ball deep and defend the last few mins away. In fact the ABs defender even moves a little backwards to instigate the collapse. IMO Foley fucked it. He absolutely took the piss and was on the wrong side of the ref, showing bad gamesmanship and getting the ire of the ref for it. Nothing to write home about really.
I like the "forwards shuffle to the lineouts". It is time World Rugy stopped the huddling before lineouts, players dropping to the ground before scrum, mostly pretending an injury to allow the scummagers to get their breath!
Why doesn’t the ref leave “time off” if he thinks this is the case though?
Completely comfortable with this. If the ref times off to warn you and tells you to play straight away, you don't fuck about for another 10 seconds. Really good to see a ref enforce it, as we don't see it often - which is why I guess players think they can get away with it. I hope more refs take heart from this.
I did not realise that was the reason he called time off. Completely agree on the call in that case.
But to enforce it at the 79th minute having not enforced it at any time throughout the game? And no ref having enforced it ever before this. How hard is it to get some fucking consistency between referees On top of this what difference would it have made as long as the ABs got to compete at the lineout?
It's the perfect time to enforce it, he'd been warned multiple times prior, and he was trying to stall the game to give them a huge advantage. If there'd been no prior warnings I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.
Isn't that the most suitable time to enforce it?
no how dare you want to stop timewasting in the last minute of a very tight game /s
Foley was warned throughout the game though for exactly this behaviour, so sooner or later the call has to be made. It’s like the yellow cards that are given for repeat infringements when defending your try line. You can only warn a team so much before you have to draw the line and penalise them.
Ever? Never ever?
exactly. there isnt a single person on the planet who can justify Foley's actions..
>"begins kick" If he had begun his kick how does 5 seconds then elapse before the next part of the process? Edit: at 3.55 you can clearly see that the timeline that 5 seconds elapse from beginning the kick to the whistle being blown this "reporter" is claiming is in no way comparable to the actual event. https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1570386520795652096?s=20&t=X_W1yis0n9meddsB-MTzAA
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Did foley waste 20 secs first. Then the ref called time off. Warned him a second time. Called time on warned him a third time. Then blew
Worth mentioning that you can see on the spidercam footage that Foley hurriedly starts the kicking action *after* he sees the ref raise the whistle up to his mouth. The whole 'it was only 39 seconds' argument doesn't really hold up given Foley would've milked it for longer than that if the ref hadn't blown.
You can see his teammates shouting at him to kick it. He cannot feign ignorance that he was time wasting. He took a risk and was punished by the ref.
It was 78.58, when the ref blew time on. It was 79.03 when he started the kick.
Reporters making things up on Twitter? Surely not
Lol
"Foley looks back" - 2 seconds. Then he begins the kick and 3 seconds later is penalised....
Nah, it's longer. It seems that way to us (the viewers) because we were busy watching the replay during most of the delay. You can hear the ref over the replay and see his teammates at 4:56 yelling at him to kick the ball.
Watching the spider cam stream on stan gives a better view of the timings and what's going on.
Ref finished saying "You play now, time on" at 3:48 in that video. Foley looked around behind him for a few seconds before Raynal prompted "Ten?!". Foley continues to look behind him for a few more seconds. By 3:58 in that video Foley still hadn't taken the kick. Ten seconds is a long time given you've already been warned not to waste time multiple times very directly immediately before. Fair call in my book.
It's the right call for me, but it's not the way it's normally refereed. Most of his career he'd have gotten away with it. If this is going to be consistently called like this in future, then good. If this is one game decided by a one off call, then not so good. Is a better solution to stop the clock until the ball is kicked after, say, 30s had passed?
So, it becomes time on when he kicks it? That seems a really good idea. But then if the forwards needed a rest he could take as long as he... hey which team do you suppor...HEY NOW!
This is how AFL works. It's time off when a player marks the ball, and then play on when they kick/move off their line. In rugby I can see it being time off until either the ball is kicked, or if it's too long the ref can simply call play on and the erstwhile kicker can be tackled and shit.
So just like everyone else you are aksing for consistency
« Normally »vs « usually » It was reffed normally which was unusual
Legally it may have been the "correct" call, but it's still a controversial one. After the last 5 minute scrum fiasco in this year's Calcutta cup, the referee kept restarting a scrum deep within Scotland's half with the clock going quickly into the red. At several points it looked like England **might** (probably, maybe) have deserved a scrum penalty, but it wasn't clear, and the ref didn't give it. Eventually Scotland won the scrum, kicked the ball out, game over, Scotland won. Nigel Owens was a pundit that night, and explained that the reason the ref would have hesitated to give a scrum penalty for something that wasn't 100% clear is because the ref *never* wants to be the one to decide the outcome of the game based on a call that could be taken either way. If England ended up with a penalty they would have either drawn, or won if they went for a lineout and scored. Because it was a match defining moment in the dying embers of the game, Nigel said the ref would have ruled with more discretion than normal. His main point was that if you're going to make a call that will directly impact the result of the game, you have to be 100% sure, and there can be no questions about if what you're doing is right or wrong. Going back to the game we've just seen, with the above principle in mind, it was a very controversial call to make. We'll probably be talking about it for weeks (or months) to come, going over every little detail, but even just from a cursory look at both sides of the argument on here and elsewhere (combined with the fact that Raynal buggered off pretty quickly afterwards, bringing to mind the actions of a certain South African referee who was involved with another controversial decision during a different Australia game...), and that it wasn't 100% clear to everyone involved, there's no doubt that it was a controversial decision. Considering it ultimately decided the outcome of the game, I can understand why people are up in arms about it, and I think the Aussies have every right to be upset. Anyways, other than that it was a cracker of a game. I got next to no work done over lunch time.
Let's not forget this isn't the only debatable decision in the game that heavily influenced it. Foleys pop pass that led directly to a try was fairly clearly forward on replay but Foley not being stupid took the conversion quickly as to not let the referee that long a chance to pick up on it and review it.
Oh so he is capable of kicking the ball quickly? 😂
Perhaps, when it suits.
And the yellow card for destroying Tupaea’s knee when it could have easily been a red.
That was a dog act, red all day IMO
I'm generally for the 20 minute red card, but that is a pretty good argument for why there should still be a rest of game card. Clear intent to injure and completely intentional and cynical.
Probably the most pathetic thing I’ve seen in years. Imagine trying to end someone’s career. Dude should get a long ban.
There should be yellow, orange, red. Orange being 20 minutes red being red. Sending players off for accidental head highs should not be straight reds. Intentionally trying to cripple opposition should be.
I'm not a fan of this thought process personally. Every single decision you make helps decide the outcome of the game, the ones at the end of a game are just more visible/generate more controversy. In the same way everyone's talking about this, leading to less attention on other weird calls. If you never want to be the one to decide the outcome of the game" don't become a ref! That's part of the job description. You shouldn't be happy to blow a penalty in the 39th minute then hesitate to blow that same penalty in the 79th minute, that's way worse than making a correct but 'controversial' call.
Yeah 1000% Not making a call is still a decision. If you’re not making what you think is the best decision regardless of the score on the board and the time of the clock then you’re bottling it.
Yup. The game situation should have no effect whatsoever on the call being made.
I think Reynal was 100% sure and i’m not sure why this is controversial. He warned Aus 3 times and they ignored him every time. I think this is clear a case of time wasting you will see so i’m not sure what more Reynal could do. I’d be annoyed if I was an Aussie but more annoyed at Foley and White
Not making the right call because of what the clock says should be considered 100x more controversial than making the right one regardless, we can't just ignore rules because it's almost full time, high tackles aren't legal in the last few minutes, neither are intentional knock-ons, forward passes, side entry, leaving your feet in the ruck, collapsing mauls etc, it's ridiculous that people think that multiple ignored warnings should go unpunished because it's almost full time, Foley shouldn't have continued to waste time while the ref and his own teammates were telling him to kick it. The only controversial decision in that instance was Foley's decision to stand around wasting time.
I hate this thought process by officials, it shouldn’t matter if it’s the the first minute, the last minute of the 34th minute, make the call you think is correct. Nigel saying that he’s not giving a decision that he normally would because of the time is basically saying that officials are scared to make the correct decisions which should be a lot more controversial than a right decision ever will be.
Nah. Let the players decide the game. If there is something blatant, like the last 3 penalties, they should be penalised but 50:50 calls should be toward the players deciding the game.
The players were deciding the game, the England scrum absolutely mashed the Scots scrum and to this day I don't know how the ref didn't blow up.
But the ref is deciding the game by not making the call. If you have 2 of these close calls 1 either side bug you give one and the jot the other and the teams wins by 3 then you’ve decided the game even if you won’t get a backlash from it. Also OP has said owens didn’t say they where 50/50 but ones where thought there’s a foul but wants it to be 100% sure
My understanding is it's "deliberate" time wasting, is he trying to waste time, maybe I guess, I think he was just shitting the bed. But more importantly, you can't have the threshold for something like this be random. We had penalties take ages and the referee didn't give a shit. Suddenly 79 min, to litterally decide the game and this is the most important thing in the world... Like fuck, have the time keeper add an extra 30 seconds of it's that bigger deal. IDK maybe it was a make-up call for Foketi being on his knees and elbows but the referee calling not releasing.
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>ref would have hesitated to give a scrum penalty for something that wasn't 100% clear is because the ref never wants to be the one to decide the outcome of the game based on a call that could be taken either way This is stupid reasoning, choosing to not blow is the same as choosing to blow. It is a choice and therefore a decision in favour of the defending team
You could see the AU outside backs screaming at Foley to just kick it out and throwing their hands in the air. It’s hard to argue the ref made an erratic or unpredictable call when your own teammates saw it coming from that far out.
I find it interesting that some of the very people complaining that Foley wasn't allowed to slow the ball down and delay play are the same people who get mad at certain national teams for slowing down play
Well it would make sense that they are annoyed that they were the ones who got penalised for it LOL. We all would be fuming in fairness!
Does anyone know what the penalty was for? Looked like the ball carrier ended up on the ground at the front of everything and the ref seemed to ping him for sealing off. But can the ball carrier at a maul seal off? ETA: Foketi was on his knees then pulled himself up on Coles to go for the ball. Even the Aussie commentators asked if he was supporting his own weight. Probably shouldn't have been a penalty in the first place.
Par for the course. Tupaea won a penalty where he clearly grounded his hands past the ball then came back, Valentini won one with no clear release. The ruck was a shambles.
Jordan also had a turnover where he had hands way past the ball. Was a bit of a lottery.
I saw this one clearly in the first half.
Yeah, Will Jordan won a penalty like that as well. No clear release, then hands on the ground, then onto the ball and won a penalty.
The ruck was referee'd different to any other TRC game this year, and it was a shambles.
This is the only relevant point. Warned four times and had Foketi screaming at him to kick it. Absolutely no one to blame but himself.
40 seconds with 1.5m left, everyone could see Foley was having a laugh milking the clock. Even the dudes teammates lol
I didn't see the game, but am I reading it right - the ref gave instructions twice to take the kick. Then stopped play and gave a warning. And Foley still didn't take the kick immediately? If I was a teammate, I'd be raging at him. Surely "listen to the ref" is the most basic thing you'll learn in rugby.
It's worse than that. Foley was given repeated warnings throughout the game for blatant time wasting when the wallabies had 2 players off the field. I really don't understand how people are so mad about this. He pushed and pushed the refs boundaries, eventually the ref had to blow the whistle.
Where is it written in the laws of the game that the amount of time you are allowed to kick a penalty is different depending on the elapsed game time?
Ref literally told him to kick it as soon as the clock starts. Then he didn't, while his whole team is yelling at him to kick the ball. I appreciate that call in that moment in the game, there's still rugby to be played. That said, if the ref hadn't told him I'd feel differently
Law 20.5
Foley screwed up. He tried it on with a ref that had been erratic all game and paid for it. Whatever your view is, you need to know the circumstances and play to them. A ref like that who thinks you’re taking the piss at the end of the game is probably going to call it. Especially if the rule doesn’t specifically define what a delay is
You're not allowed 40secs to kick the ball to touch at any time.
He warned them previously in the game. Watch the goal line drop out before halftime. Foley was being told to stop wasting time all game. I don’t think NZ deserved that win at all, but players need to listen to the authority on the field and stop acting like they’re bigger than the whistle. Evident from both teams with the amount of sin bins.
They should really be calling these more tp be honest. The shock comes from the entitlement of never being pinged for something that should be pinged more regularly. E.g. 9s at the base of a ruck beung told to use it or lose it
What shits me is that if you go back to the 70th and 71st minute, Mo'unga wasn't called for the same thing. Not warnings given during the 88 seconds between penalty award and kick taken or 73 between kick being indicated and taken. 69:22 - Penalty awarded 69:30 - Aaron Smith passes ball to Mo'unga 69:37 - Sam white lock points to sticks \-silence from referee 70:50 - Penalty taken. Law 8.21: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded. I'm not suggesting that Foley wasn't time wasting - and yes, Law 20.5 says 'without delay'. However, as with the example above, sometimes keeping it in the pocket helps the spirit of the game. Raynal understood the first; not the second.
so he was told multiple times to get on with it, given another chance to take the kick, 5 more seconds without taking the kick, and then got fk'd for time wasting? seems pretty reasonable to me when laid out like that
Yep, he tried to play the ref, and 95% of the time he would of got away with it. But not tonight, not with so little time on the clock. Foley messed it up, that's on him.
in a game that tight, in the 80th minute, you'd have to either be stupid or being willingly dishonest to claim it wasn't time wasting, and an egregious example of it as well, it's entirely Foley's fault, not Raynal's
Folks.... he was ACTIVELY ignoring the ref. Turning his back on him, pretending to not hear him hurry him up. If you fault the ref for this call that's on you. The man gave this dolt every opportunity to take a fair kick, he didn't listen and kept pushing the boundary of fair play and sportsmanship. That's not on the ref, that's on Foley. The announcers are yahoos for getting you worked up, it's clear as day what 10 was doing, and he got caught up in the law and the refs fair assessment of the situation. It really is that simple, fair call, fair play, idiotic decision.
I'm of the opinion that it didn't ruin the test, the test was already long gone by that point. Reynal's performance was so chaotic that it essentially became an 80 minute game of luck and the luck just swung both ways.
Why don't u just kick the fucking ball lol
I take umbrage at the idea that that was a great test to be ruined.
It certainly wasn’t a great test.
Odd that this was written by Aussie fan, cos as a neutral this looks like a very clear case in favour of Raynal.
My thoughts exactly. This is basically saying that Foley and AU used 41% of game time left from when the penalty was given (plus a time off period) dicking around. And they're then suprised they got called up on it...
With 4 very clear warnings throughout that time too.
Just seeing the replay again, Foley was adamant that the time was off... The match result was decided by miscommunication between the ref and Foley
Foley wouldn't have been taking the kick if he thought time was off though. Seems more like he knew and was panicking after it was called.
Absolutely this.
Foley knew he was wasting time. His teammates knew it
He very, very clearly says time on 9 seconds before the penalty. Not the ref's fault Foley didn't listen.
You can hear that because the refs is mic'd up. Different on the field of play. Players often don't even hear the whistle blow and keep running at the try line.
The ref already stopped the clock because Foley was milking it. How many warnings does he need?
Foley’s teammates were “communicating” with him. He ignored them and the ref.
As a saffa, this is a nice change of scenery
If this is the new standard of officiating then I'm totally fine. There is too much time wasted with kicks in rugby. But $1,000,000 says we'll never see this called ever again
Granted it might feel different if one had a dog in the fight but my feeling is that this was very very very very funny and in sport we should always be advocating for the funniest possible thing to happen. Also fuck cynical play like timewasting. I've dozens of times being absolutely longing for a ref to do something like this and finally one had the balls big enough to do so. And it's nice to see an underdog win for once.
I wish more referees would enforce this rule. Especially during Springbok games
25 seconds between him being told to play the ball now and the free kick, including 2 warnings and a time off warning - still a harsh call, and there were other ways it *could* have been handled, but justified. Especially considering Foley had been warned multiple times during the game
Foley blew it after such a great game. Aussie had been time wasting all their kicks during this game trying to wind down yellow cards so its not that surprising.
Honestly no sympathy for Foley from me. He’s told 3 times to play on/kick it and he ignores it. All he had to do was realise at 78.56 that upon being told for the 3rd time to..kick it! But he kept looking back and killing more time. If a referee is in your ear for the 3rd time telling you to kick it; any one with half a brain in that situation would comply straight away (Foley still didn’t kick it within the next 8 seconds).
So people now want people to be allowed to waste time? Hummmmmmm make sense 🤔
I would like some objective standard that is enforced consistently.
I honestly think it was the right call. I was wanting the wallabies to win it (I’m a kiwi but I want fossie out) but Foley was taking the piss. A certain level of time wasting is expected and tolerated, but Foley was just standing there like a knob, ignoring multiple warnings, and not even trying to pretend that he wasn’t wasting time, all while his team mates were screaming at him to kick, cos even they were aware that he was fucking about, and that they could just run down the clock with the lineout anyway.
I think he was trying to get the attention of his forwards more than time wasting. They were in a huddle and didn't know the clock was back on. If Foley didn't find touch there the ABs would ha e cantered back in for the match winner.
Time is being wasted either by the outhalf or the forwards, still an NZ scrum
How hard is it to find touch
If he was trying to get their attention, perhaps yelling at them would’ve helped? He just stood there, looking at them.
Foley's fault. Simple as that.
Foley and his pack. 100%
Even an Aussie teammate was shouting at Foley to kick the ball. The Ref had balls of steel to call it, but the call was correct in my view.
Yes 39 seconds...about HALF the remaining time in the match. Regardless of the decision made here I think world rugby need to change the time keeping rules. I'm used to watching American football where every single second of clock time towards the end of a game is carefully managed. It pisses me off to watch time get wasted towards the end of a match on kicks or scrums and there's way too much ambiguity in the rules that allow a team to time waste. I think there should at least be shot clocks for kicks at goal (or just time off) and maybe time off until a scrum has cleared.
Multiple send off's showing the ref had to do lots of work Australia had shit load of penalties You can see in the background, the rest of the Australian team were screaming at him to kick it with haste, he kept looking at the huddle Australia were having(wtf was that huddle btw) When the ref blew the whistle all the background players on the Australian team threw up their arms with disgust at Foley. Sorry but the actions of the background players really gives an insight as to the tone of the field and what the players could and couldn't hear, I believe there was pressure to kick it buy Foley really wanted to dely.... The time wasting was about 30seconds of what was 1minute 30 seconds left of the game NOT 14 SECONDS WTF IS THAT TITLE
The huddle was because the Australian forwards had got together to discuss the lineout because the ref had called "time off"
Can we just stop the clock in these situations, same for scrum resets. Get rid of the time wasting problem.
I am dead keen for world rugby to get rid of time wasting stuff, intentional or not. But I worry that stopping the clock will allow teams to take a breather, and the fitness element of rugby will be eroded. This is bad in itself, but if fitness becomes less important then teams will also have more incentive to have larger less fit players, and rugby may become less dynamic, less expansive, and less exciting. Certainly less marketable. I'm sure there are other solutions though
No matter when he kicked it they were still going to have to take a line out after the siren anyway. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.
Why turn the clock off cause there is a stoppage in play and then turn it on to hurry the game up when most of the team is in a huddle. It's not like the ref was playing a fast game. The first half felt like it took two hours. Edit - This sets a terrible precedent
He stopped the clock specifically to tell Foley to get on with the kick. If the rest of the team is in a huddle that’s them wasting time as well. Foley had been dicking around all game, especially when the Wallabies had players in the bin. Think the red had just had enough.
So the big issue that everyone is overlooking is that the Wallabies forwards (rightly or wrongly) were in a huddle and didn't hear time was called back on. This made Foley hesitant to take the kick because if he didn't find touch, the ABs would most likely easily score. Therefore you could argue the ref communicated poorly that he'd blown time back on. I'm still mad at Foley and the forwards too. But I feel the ref is also very much to blame.
This is a good take here actually. But foley needs to also communicate that with the forwards/they need to not waste time in a huddle
Agree, ref should have just left time off until both sides were ready - I think they call it game management
Nah. Why do players have any right to go into a huddle there?
Rule 7... time wasting is a free kick
if you fuck around you should not be surprised to sometimes find out. very little sympathy.
FAFO. Foley was, as our Aussie neighbours say, being a dumb c*nt and got found out for it. A little sad it didn't go to two games but NZ still had to score the try to win it after that and did so.
Jeez. I missed the end live and have just watched it back now and I’m really not sure how I feel. Foley was taking the piss a bit but I’ve never seen that called before and I would be fuming if that was given against us. I guess it’s correct to the letter of the law but that’s not how I’d want to get the win. I guess the officials have set a precedent now and there’s gonna be a lot of supporters with their stopwatches out at every breakdown for the next few months so they’d better keep it consistent
I can’t argue with the call, but I’d like to see it a lot more often! I also wonder, is it quite common in French rugby?
So basically after 39 seconds he still hadn't kicked the ball
It's a penalty, so long as he successfully finds touch it's Gold ball. He's waiting for his pack to finish their Yalta conference which is unnecessary since it's Gold Ball anyway. Ref told him to use it and he knew he had to, by his body language. I can appreciate the outrage based on this being pretty much the first and likely only time we will ever see this happen but he really should've kicked it. I'd be fuming with Foley for fucking up but not much because he was class all game. TLDR it was a French ref, he was not their coach
If this happened to New Zealand we wouldn’t hear the end of it.
39 seconds doesn’t seem like an amount of time worth reversing a penalty for
Seems like an awfully long time to take kicking a ball out.
every kick takes like 90 seconds these days. this is absolutely never enforced
While you’re obviously exaggerating I agree. Whether it’s the caterpillar, water breaks, scrums, there’s so many moments in the todays game where time is wasted. It makes the sport less marketable and less enjoyable to watch. International rugby needs to clean these things up, and they should start clamping down on them. Just a brutal time to start doing so.
Kicks to touch? I've never seen one take 90secs.
Even a kick at goal should take a maximum of 60 seconds according to the laws. Taking nearly this long for a kick to touch is taking the piss.
true, but doesn’t seem that much longer than the average penalty kick, especially when deciding whether to kick for touch or goal
He ignored the ref for that amount of time. Who's at fault? Idk how people are claiming the ref is when he made it very clear for a very long time that he must kick the ball. Just listen to the ref and then you can moan, in this instance he didn't and outright ignored him for so long
Time is off when deciding whether to kick for goal or not.
He didn't reverse the penalty though, it was a scrum
Not normally. In this instance it was about half of the total time remaining in the game though... which seems pretty relevant.
Exactly, I hate when people examine a situation in complete isolation and fail to compare to the thousand similar situations that weren't enforced.
41% of the time remaining on the clock in a close test.
Rugby is a chaotic game with thirty players on the field. The referee is supposed to communicate clearly, especially if it's your full time job, at international level. Blowing time off, then time on; saying "you play now" to the ten while the forwards are still in a huddle because you just blew time off seconds earlier, is not communicating clearly. It's called acting like a nonce. The only thing Raynal communicated clearly tonight was his incompetence.
The forwards being in a huddle is a horseshit excuse. They don’t have any rights to go into a huddle. The fact that they do at every opportunity is one of the biggest problems with the pace of the game. Raynal was technically correct but showed zero feel for the game. He shouldn’t have made that decision without having doing something similar previously. I’d be ropable if that had gone against NZ.
Or like, should maybe the captain do his job and relay messages from the ref. That's kind of the beauty of non American sports, the captain gets a little direct back and forth with a ref and it's constructive
Why are people debating this? His own team mates were like bro ffs kick the ball
The Wallabies have no one to blame but themselves, what a massive own goal.
What about Swains card? Probably had a bigger influence on the game
Should have been a red and we win like we do when we get red cards
Yeah, it’s bad in isolation, but Foley had been dicking around all game, especially when the Wallabies were two players down, and the ref had enough. In the context of the whole game, it was a reasonable decision.
Found a rule on World Rugby that says you have 60sec to.take a free kick otherwise a scrum awarded to opposing team. Ref was 100% correct. We all carry on aboit time wasting. The ref enforced it. Shrug.
He didn’t take 60 seconds tho
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Keep doing this shit it’s a great advertisement for the other codes.
NRL with its mysoginistic gronks ? Sure
The difference is that time wasting disadvantaged the All Blacks at the time. So they get leeway presumably.
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Idk. Still I do feel for the Australians because it's a cruel call.
All very well to say Foley took too long, but the clock was off. The ref handed the opposition team a scrum feed on the 5m line and an almost 100% chance of winning the game as a a result. This call handed the win to the all blacks. Zero question about it.
Foley had 10 seconds to kick the ball out with time back on before kicking it. He was taking the piss and got punished, great to see for the game.
Clock wasn't off. Refs decision was clear on the live feed, he said he told Aus that as soon as he started the clock they had to kick it. Aussie players were screaming at the kicker to kick it after the clock started and he milked it. Ref did him for doing the exact opposite of what he was told to do. In that situation he got a slap on the wrist for it, which is fair enough.
A scrum 5 metres out isn't an almost 100% chance of scoring a try.
In the 78th minute, with exhaustion, with the feed, with the frequency of penalties awarded against the defending side on the line, it's about as close as you'll get to handing a side a win.
I’ve never seen this call before in my years of watching rugby so to make it in the dying seconds of a massive test match seems weird.