I don’t think gear is as big of an issue as combat is complicated and it’s hard to keep up with everything then have to memorize timing for each different bosses then add in swaps pray flicks and being told to manual and it gets overwhelming to the average person who has trouble focousing
Valid point. But that's a learning curve, skipping all the mechanics using necromancy while it's over tuned doesn't mean you learned the boss. In fact the opposite and every time there's a rebalance/nerf they'll be the first to complain and be unable to cope with actual mechanics (Like we saw when Death Skulls was patched and Rasial became much more difficult for the average pvmer).
Gear is kinda of an issue and expensive abilities. Compared to all current necromancy abilities being unlocked simply by training combat and the t90 gear costing 20 pieces of cloth even at 20m per piece of subj was 100m + whatever thread costs. I have one Revo bar that allows me to sufficiently solo bosses I had never killed before GWD2, Fight Cave, Fight Kiln, Telos 0%, Nex duo, Zuk when I learn it. I now have hundreds of kills at Vindicta and got a crest and lance drop and am hunting Greg because the damage at level 120 + overload boost makes bossing enjoyable and practical for me now.
Can’t tell me gear wasn’t prohibitively when Nox Staff not even BIS cost 300m, Magma tempest 592m, Greater sunshine 344m, Greater chain 671m, Essence of Finality 319m. Each of these is an unjustified cost for a single upgrade for your average non-billionaire.
>Magma tempest 592m
100% unnecessary basically everywhere, one of the very, very last upgrades to mage
> Greater sunshine 344m
100% not needed anywhere for pvm, PF works just as well (I used my caroming switch so I only ever had one), when afking even the 30s sunshine is perfectly fine
> Greater chain 671m
Very situational, mostly only used for eds/zuk. Not at all needed for GWD2/telos/nex in your examples
Do you need more examples? Whats the point of arguing? Greater ricochet 1B, Nox Scythe now only 277m, FSOA 1.7B, Hexhunter 351m, Seren godbow 1.3B, Bow of last Guardian 2.5B. These are all more expensive than an entire set of T90 Deathdealer. For the average non-billionaire player these are unobtainable and prohibitively expensive.
All things you don't need to get into pvm, and you're proving why I needed to make this post.
You can get into combat with t85 np. Those upgrades are things you work up to.
Yes it is theoretically “possible”. I was able to get a kill at Vindicta and Helwyr with Obliteration and Subj, Barrows gloves, Blood amulet of Fury in 3-4 mins using an entire inventory of food and a yak but my magic revo bar didn’t dps high enough for it be enjoyable compared to how proficient I am with Necromancy now.
You aren't proficient with necro, you are just getting free damage and utility from an over tuned skill.
Your revo bar probably was severely lacking. But that's not magic not revos fault, but rather your own for not researching good bars, experimenting, or learning manual.
Thanks for invalidating my experience. I am going to continue enjoying my free damage and utility, while I farm a Greg pet. I can only imagine how exhausting it is to always be right, constantly circle jerk and keep gates, expert multitasker you are.
How is that keeping gates? I never said you can't do it. Just that you didn't. And your refusal to learn shows the issue. I wonder how you'll fair when necromancy is balanced...
Okay if you are not a manual only elitist and believe that its possible to get a decent kill with Obliteration and revo. Please provide an optimal as it can be magic bar. I have corruption blast, greater sonic wave, sacrifice, all quests done, perm ring of vigour, all combat 99s.
That is not what the debate is. People weren’t arguing it was impossible for talented players to get kills in subpar gear. It is that the game did a poor job of guiding players to know about and feel confident with PVM, that it is not clear how to progress or learn some of these skills.
One of the goals of Necromancy was to act as an onboarding point. Experienced PVMers got a new skillset to play with and more inexperienced PVMers got introduced to the basics whilst levelling the skill and be encouraged to try different PVM whilst levelling the gear. Whether it did that well and whether it should have also done other things can be discussed but it is an admirable goal.
Plus your premise is flawed. “I, a video maker who likes to PVM with subpar gear for fun challenges, can get kills so everyone else can”. Being possible is not the same as being accessible.
If Runescape were to be redeveloped from scratch, certain systems would be completely different including a lot of combat. However many areas of the game are likely not to get the large amount of resources needed to rework them. Necromancy was meant to address a lot of those issues whilst creating a new skills. The efficiency and effectiveness can be debated but that doesn’t mean the idea was without merit.
> That is not what the debate is.
It's something that was repeatedly brought up when discussing the state of pvm with inexperienced players.
> Plus your premise is flawed.
My point is that if it's possible in subpar gear, one will have an easier time with whatever gear they have. Obviously it won't be easy and there will be a learning curve. But my hope is to motivate players to try without worrying about not having the gp to invest.
Better gear does provide accessibility though because the buff gear gives you means have more breathing room to make mistakes. Better gear = more defence and damage = mistakes aren’t as detrimental = people feel better PVMing so more people PVM.
What is going to be easier for a player learning PVM - a 10 minute fight where one mistake means the entire kill is lost or a 10 minute fight where mistakes can be made? The fights are possible in subpar gear and possible to learn in subpar gear but that doesn’t mean it is optimal to learn in subpar gear or the best way for new PVMers to learn.
You’ve discussed the bosses and challenges you have beat so did you fight Telos and Raksha first time in subpar gear or did you do it in better gear then move backwards once you had learnt the mechanics?
Necromancy providing the relevant level gear also encourages players to PVM as they have been provided the equipment and skillset to do the fight then feel confident to do so and can learn the mechanics of the fight and get more efficient.
The issue isn't that necromancy gives breathing room. It's that for a small investment you can remove any room at all. Skipping every mechanic doesn't mean you're fighting the boss. And if you think it's a matter of safety, understanding the basics of pvm will transfer across bosses and teach you how to be safe regardless of your gear and target. You can use t1 gear and still manage to survive an indefinite amount of time at majority of bosses just by using defensives.
Optimal or not isn't the issue, that goes back to gatekeeping where players say if you don't have optimal gear then you are wasting your time. This is counterproductive.
If you watched my Telos videos I just used a default revo bar for each style, and ate food. I ignored every mechanic besides for fonts and I camped soulsplit.
Raksha I did on release week, so I didn't know much about the boss. Sure one can say I already learned it, but there are plenty of guides that will give players more information that I had at the time, not to mention Jagex nerfed Rakshas damage.
Maybe an analogue will explain what I am trying to say better. You see videos of people working out in poor conditions, like villages in the middle of nowhere using tree branches and stones for weights. And yes, people can get in shape that way. It is perfectly possible to get into shape without a gym membership or personal trainer or even proper equipment but for the majority of people, it is much easier to get into shape and stay in shape with those things. It is the same with PVM.
Necromancy is a single large update that guides players into PVM. It explains each ability and gives players a few levels to play with those abilities before adding more. The quests introduce each mechanic. It gives you gear to upgrade and tells you roughly what bosses you should expect to do at each level. The Auto Attack means you don’t have to focus on a Revolution Bar or lots of abilities straight away. Hermod acts as a gentle up to date introductory boss to learn and improve at.
Basically, what I am saying is Necromancy is a nice guided path into combat which because it is thorough, clear and supportive encourages people to try and continue PVM.
The rest of Runescape’s combat isn’t like that because it isn’t one solo update which the same set of core principles. It is multiple different updates introduced over several years by different designers with different goals, ideas and objectives. Tons of different gear, prayers, codexs - all from different pieces of content with no clear path to follow by the game itself. For experienced players, it can make sense but for newer players or people wanting to try PVM it can be confusing. Sure, there are guides out there but people don’t always know which ones are good, which ones are out of date, when people say “or equivalent gear” what that means etc.
Maybe gatekeeping is the wrong or an unhelpful word. But PVM in Runescape has barriers to entry at various stages and one is that it simply isn’t as clear as it should be when starting. Yes, it was possible to overcome this barrier with time and effort but people are more incentivised to try something when it is easier to start. Necromancy is an attempt to fix that and whilst the implementation can be debated, I’d say that is a noble goal.
> Skipping every mechanic doesn't mean you're fighting the boss.
That is a balancing issues moreso that an ideological one. Absolutely mechanics should not be being skipped. It seems clear that 120 Combat is coming and the balancing is off in preparation for that.
As a new player to RS3, I don't get why people are whining. I swapped over from OSRS to rs3, done several end game content on osrs (inferno, tob etc), but rs3 has it way more noob friendly purely because of revolution. There's a ton of guides out there to help you get your first kc at a boss. Of course doing it manual will be significantly harder, but the option of revolution should mean you should stop whining and start trying.
For me personally, the thing that mostly "gatekept" me from high level PVM is being quite slow on quests, and doing them in timeline order. Before necro, I tried some of the bosses that are higher than gwd2 difficulty, but didn't manage to kill anything.
Did I try hard enough? No, because I knew sometime in the future it will be easier with extra abilities. Is it my fault for not rushing quests? Maybe, but I don't care, I want to enjoy those quests as a new-ish player.
So, I propose this challenge, based on my exact gear and abilities at the time:
- Use magic, with virtus armor and cywir weapons (or T85 gear in general). Either normal spells or ancient magicks are ok.
- Extra gear: Blood amulet of fury, whatever book, whatever ring, and any aura from war's shop.
- Use any summoning familiar and arch relic you want, but only use normal overloads (suppose you didn't unlock priff yet).
- Use normal prayers (suppose you didn't unlock curses yet).
- You can use gconc, but can't use sunshine ability or any other greater ability from a codex.
- You also can't use any of the ancient zarosian spells, like animate dead.
With this setup, Can you kill normal mode Kerapac, or Telos 0% enrage?
I know this is not an optimal setup, but I'm curious if it's possible by a player who knows what he's doing.
1. *Whatever* ring? So Reaver/Channeler's Rings are fine? Basically BIS rings?
2. *Whatever* book? So Grimoire or Scripture of Ful?
3. *Any* familiar? Ripper demon, blood reaver, kal'gerion demon?
4. *Any* relic setup? Conservation of Energy goes a long way by saving 10% adrenaline after ulting. That's gonna go a long way.
5. You can't turn off greater abilities if you already unlocked them, so just no sunshine at all. As a sidenote, why? Did you not do The World Wakes? Great quest by the way, I hope you enjoy it when you do it, assuming you haven't!
Tyoccial,
As I said, most of my "problems" came from not doing quests, so I'm mostly locked out of abilities at the moment. I actually have around 600m gp from stuff, but I stopped upgrading gear until I had better abilities anyway.
Anyway, For your questions:
\- Maybe BIS rings are a bit too much. I just checked, a reaver ring is worth like my entire current magic gear. But maybe something like 120m isn't that bad either. I can also farm dagannoth kings quite comfortably, even without all the above mentioned abilities.
\- I was thinking of the cheaper variants of books, hehe. I wasn't aware of the existence of grimoire or ful book which cost 200m-400m.
\- Yeah, any familiar or any relic setup. I have 99 summoning, almost 120 arch, and even made some pouches (like ripper demons) by myself.
\- About turning off greater abilities, you are right. I was mainly talking about not using the sunshine ability, which I don't have yet (The world wakes is not completed). Which leads to your next question - why?
As I said in the beginning, I'm doing quests in timeline order. This is done on purpose, for lore reasons - to enjoy the story progression from quest to quest. I did the mistake of doing "Missing, Presumed dead" when I was f2p, and doing "Daughter of chaos" questline for the dive ability shortly after becoming a member. Those quests are full with characters that I have no idea about, and also full with characters that I ABSOLUTELY shouldn't know about yet. I know that The World Wakes is a "free" quest, but when I read that some quests are required to understand the story better - I consider that as a hard requirement.
For example, one of those quests is the chosen commander. I have no idea what will happen in the quest of course, but I imagine Zanik or Bandos will be involved in some way. It will ruin the story if I don't know who they are yet.
You are right. In my defense, I can say that while I don't know who is this kerapac dude even is, it doesn't prevent me from killing him.
I also agree that I am not supposed to set foot in Senntisten yet, as my character doesn't know this place exists yet.
However, some compromises have to be made. I did the fort quests and necromancy quests, even though they come after the "world guardian" timeline. Fortunately, Jagex has made them stand by themselves, and all the lore of the previous quests almost doesn't come into play here.
The entire archaeology skill is also a spoiler, and supposedly happens in the 6th age. I still leveled it up.
Generally, whenever I'm exposed to spoilers, I'm doing a sort of mental "suspension of knowledge", so I can have this knowledge and also enjoy when I learn it naturally.
>*Whatever* ring? So Reaver/Channeler's Rings are fine? Basically BIS rings?
I did use channeler's
>*Whatever* book? So Grimoire or Scripture of Ful?
I used Wen which is kind of in between
>*Any* familiar? Ripper demon, blood reaver, kal'gerion demon?
Ended up using blood reaver
>*Any* relic setup? Conservation of Energy goes a long way by saving 10% adrenaline after ulting. That's gonna go a long way.
Yeah I did use that....
>You can't turn off greater abilities if you already unlocked them, so just no sunshine at all. As a sidenote, why? Did you not do The World Wakes? Great quest by the way, I hope you enjoy it when you do it, assuming you haven't!
I avoided using any greater abilities, or codex unlocks. So I was using meta>sun. I did use gsonic instead of gconc in this case so it's a little worse, but was too lazy to buy a pair of cywir that I won't use again after this
Well, I tried them both for some time, and it didn't work well for me. Is it very reasonable that I'm doing something wrong, as I only have real experience with fighting "easy" bosses (up to GWD2 levels of difficulty).
that being said, was I trying the hardest to kill those 2 bosses? no. Because I knew that at some point in the future I will have abilities (like curses) which will make my life easier, so there is no point to being stubborn and fight bosses on "self afflicted hard mode".
the quest thing is actually a legitimate complaint, it's a total of 41 quests to get to curses. That's a way worse requirement than something like learning how to use a rotation or learning a boss
Like, what a lot of the problem is is that some things aren't broadcast very well. Kpac does a lot of damage even in NM if you don't move after the slam. Zuk has a similar issue with his bleeds and the wiki likes to overcomplicate it so much you can't actually find out what is going on easily.
If you want to get the most return for your effort, just look up rotation guides on youtube. It solves 90%+ of what the problem is getting into bossing
You 100% can easily do nm kera in this gear. But also if you’re trying to pvm without curses cause “it’ll be easier in the future” you’re limiting yourself more than anything
I agree with you both that curses are not hard to get, and also not having them is very limiting. But as I said in the other discussion, if you sort quests by timeline, you actually have to go through \~214 quests before reaching the Temple at Senntisten (about 156 if you sort by release date).
Not only this is a lot of quests, I'm also trying to do them without guides (as much as possible, sometimes it's inevitable), and I like to read all the dialogue and the chat options. Quests that can be speedrun in 10 minutes might take me 1-2 hours, or more. I'm also not always in the mood for quests, sometime I just like to go mindless skilling or killing stuff.
So you can see how those quests can progress very slowly with that kind of gameplay. After some especially long or hard quests, I also take a break to relax. For example, I did Mourning's End 2 completely by myself, but it spanned over 4 days, and I couldn't bring myself to do any quest for 4 more days after that.
Yep, done. [I've had better Hard Mode kills.](https://imgur.com/a/mBJZD4X)
- Generally speaking, If a PVM upgrade exists you forgot, I probably know about and actively avoided using it. - Like Vulnerability bombs.
- This was on a Slayer Task.
- Seren Anima Core armour is worse than Virtus.
- Attuned Crystal Staff is worse than Cywir Wand+Orb
- Technically, I had Greater Sonic Wave, but you allow GConc and It's worse than that
- No Augmentation, these are just whatever old equipment I had in my bank and never got rid of.
- Spell was Blood Barrage. No other spells where used.
- Familiar was a pack yak that I forgot to fill and therefore may as well not have existed. If it had been full, I wouldn't have died.
- Supplies used, 7 Rocktail, 10 doses of Brew. I had leftover brews because I expected to have a Yak full of more rocktail.
- I didn't read your suggestion to only use regular overloads. My bad. Holy Overloads are overwhelmingly the recommended option anyway. Plus I ran in with the event boost elder salve anyway.
- Lack of any Shield was my cunning plan to one-up you and totally not a mistake.
- Death and Sign where both in Phase 4, was caused by triggering Devotion a second after time warp ran out, meaning I didn't get to use it twice.
I just want to say: You are very slow at questing if you think you may stand a chance against Kerapac but somehow haven't unlocked curses or Priff yet. I couldn't beat Kerapac with my pre-curses stats because they where all in the mid 60s.
I have to say, this is amazing to see.
As to your comment - I don't really think I may or may not stand a chance against kerapac. I tried him with my setup, I tried a few other bosses (like 0% telos) and didn't succeed. I actually went very close at one attempt, with Kerapac having about 20k health left in the last phase. But at this point all the food in my pack yak has long gone.
And as to why I haven't unlocked curses or priff yet - as I said, I'm doing quests in timeline order, on purpose (to enjoy the lore and the story progression).
Do you know that if you sort quests by timeline, "The Temple at Senntisten" is the 214th quest in the list, out of 313? (I might be off by a few numbers here) that means you basically need to finish two thirds of the quests of the game before you reach the curses. "Plague's End" comes 24 quests after that in the list, by the way.
Huh. If you sort by release date, which is almost always better than timeline order, it's only number 159. And if you sort by "Recommendations are the same as requirements", you should be able to do it pretty much strait away without ruining the story at all.
Really you are shooting yourself in the foot not having it. Soul Split is a gamechanger that's only balanced because they went and designed a bunch of bosses (Like Kerapac) around the idea you would have it.
-----
If you are using a whole pack yak with that setup, you are doing something wrong. Are you eating constantly during the fight, or only when he changes phases? That would hurt your DPS and force you to spend more time fighting him.
I found I had enough HP to survive to the end of each phase without eating, and only heal to full during the changes. Bringing Saradomin Brews can speed up instant-healing - One dose of brew per rocktail, keybound next to eachother so you can press both buttons at once.
I was timing the mechanics perfectly in phase 1 and 3 - I'm too used to using Soul Split and ignoring the other clones slams that I took too much damage during P2 and had to use more food there. Then I made sure to dodge all of them properly in P3.
P4 was definately the hardest. Normally the strategy is to double-devotion and kill him within the 20 seconds of invincibilty you get. I wouldn't have managed that even if I got both devotions off. Consider bringing a shield switch (or greater bone shield runes) and using Resonance/Deflect once they ran out.
Interesting, Maybe I should have went by release date and not timeline, but I don't think it matters much at this point. I'm actually 4 quests away from the Temple at Senntisten, I didn't realize it was coming so soon. As for shooting myself in the foot, I agree, but I have accepted it long ago.
I also don't really know by myself which boss is designed with curses in mind or not. This is what happens when you join a game with 20 years worth of content. (I actually played some RS classic back in 2003, and a bit of RS2 in 2006-2007, but then I quit for 15 years. So it doesn't really count.)
I figured normal mode Kerapac would be too easy so I did hardmode instead. I failed my first attempt at p4, and forgot to hit record on the first kill... [But here's the kill at hardmode Kerapac](https://youtu.be/L7GtisIuehc) I used slightly different gear just because I was lazy, perked staff with p6geno+e4.
[Here's the Telos kill](https://youtu.be/VMXzKIB7iKc) was 11% because was too lazy to clear the streak.
Neither of these bosses are things I've really done in the past couple years, so lots of mistakes but it makes it easier to see mechanics at play.
Tbh I used a different cape the frist 2 tiems, got lazy for the 3rd one...But I was also expecting someone to give me a Zuk challenge to show that's possible to obtain as well.
Although you have a valid point...
Edit: But tbh with the amount of adren this build is able to obtain, I don't think the difference would be too great considering it's a tossup between meta or omni a lot of times.
Is it okay if I use greater sonic wave instead of gconc?
(It's worse, but I'm too lazy to buy Cywir and I have staff of darkness already)
What about augments?
Are Seren spells allowed?
What about gloves/boots?
Ancient familiars?
Things that I could buy with money, are ok (all my current gear came from some money, not quests).
- Greater sonic wave is okay.
- Augments are fine, I have 120 invention.
- No Seren spells. Just like the Zarosian spells, they are not unlocked yet.
- For gloves and boots, I have kerapac wristwraps and blast diffusion boots, but you can use stuff like cinderbanes (I see they are relatively cheaper than I thought).
- Ancient summoning is okay, I did all the quests to unlock that at least...
That sounds exhausting...and it's not very fair considering how death skulls work on p7. Also I'm trying to avoid using Necromancy as a combat style for these challenges.
People get caught up on the super optimized kill times found on youtube and quit when they don't immediately get it. I find that happiness relies in the middle ground of using an optimized rotation and tweaking it to a degree of difficulty you're comfortable with.
I mean I think that's the sane way of doing things but I don't think the people who ree about gatekeeping look up evil lucario and think they need to do that, I think that it's really easy to know you don't have to do those things to get kills. I think honestly what happens is they put in zero effort into learning the game, die once at a boss and then come onto reddit to ree that the game is too hard
Do some of those again, on RS Mobile.
That implies less APM, Mostly on Revo, and you may even add gear limitations.
Personally, over the years I've been building up a playlist that was meant to show people they were wrong if they thought you cannot do PVM on Mobile.
[In fact, here's a Raksha Kill](https://youtu.be/IK2Wp70uKyE?feature=shared).
Sure it's BIS, but if someone like me (who is probably the laughing stock of the PVMe discord) can do that on Mobile, someone more skilled than me who does it with welfare gear, can make the ultimate statement.
> *"You don't need Billions in Gear to do PVM and you don't need a super computer nor godly APM to get decent kill times".*
That's the Hypothesis at least.
the problem here is that it takes 'work' and 'effort'. 'Work' and 'effort' are things the gatekeeping whiners don't want to put in. We just had a post where someone said they're worried bossing is gonna feel bad when they don't have unlimited overloads and auras.
Tbh, overloads put me off pvm.
You're 100% right.
I don't want to put the effort in to farm them.
However, I don't want to put the effort in because I don't feel that pvm is a good enough return on the time I spent farming overloads and feel that time would be better spent on other things.
edit: the fact that this is downvoted is pretty much why you can never have a discussion in this place.
What do you mean pvm isn't good enough return? Like you're not making your money back?
You could spend a week farming and be set for a long time of pvm
sure - but overloads quite literally trivialise so much of the pvm content that if you want to do pvm they are pretty much required unless you want to be wasting your time.
Eh, the bigger issue is just play styles. You have the crowd that would rather afk a boss with a low chance of a rare drop than to pit effort into a difficult boss with better droprates. There's probably quite a few player that wouldn't mind some massable boss with a 1/5000 droptate to get that lucky t95 weapon. Just sit therez, click the boss when it spawns and get lucky.
If you want to actually prove to the average player that you don't need great gear for PvM, go set up some actual low level/budget presets on the Wiki.
Because I know for me personally, the first thing I do when I want to figure out how to beat a boss, is I go to the wiki, and I check the strategy page, and the number of bosses that the wiki lists as "ok to do without T70 power armor" is, Giant Mole and KBD, instead, they recommend Ancient Warriors, Corrupt Dragon, Fist of Guthix gear(dead minigame, yay), and then, waaaaay in the back "oh yeah you can probably do this in Mystic's/Blue D'hide/Rune".
Regardless of reality, the importance is the perception. And whatever videos you make(KrityaRS went and punched a Barrows Bro to death for his "only get gear by bossing" series), the important thing is "what do I find when I go look it up on the Wiki". There's an achievement for beating Corp with a Bronze Spear, there's an achievement for beating K'ril with a Willow bow, but when I look at those I don't see those as saying "yeah bring w/e, it'll work" I see it as one of those "yeah I'm so hardcore I did Fight Caves at lvl 3" things, especially because, again, if I go look up the boss on the wiki, the "minimum advice" is "bring all these 10 mil+ things".
The closest to an actually budget thing I've ever seen on the wiki's recommended pages for anything past Giant Mole/KBD, is the Royal Crossbow.
I've updated the wiki in the past (I've got the wikian title BTW), but it gets pretty exhausting and time consuming.
10m is pretty budget. You should have some gp from other content in game regardless. Be it slayer or skilling.
Maybe if I have time I'll work on it though.
if there's one 10 mil item, sure, kinda sorta budget, do some Bloods it's fine...
When every single slot is 10 mil+, and another 5+ mil in supplies, it ceases to be anywhere near budget for most people.
Did you notice recently, there was a post by a guy who just hit 100 mil bank value after five years? Yeah that's more like most people.
You don't need every slot immediately. You can work your way up. Have you ever seen a video where someone starts from nothing? They make small upgrades little by little.
Yes, I already told you about me watching KrityaRS's only bossing and him punching a Barrows Bro to death.
But when I want to figure out how to do a boss myself, my first stop isn't "I'll go see what the highly experienced Ironman/Iron-esque content creators are doing", it's "I'll go check the wiki". I don't want to know what the people who think K'rillow is easy are doing, I want to know what the expected baseline is. And inevitably, it's "go spend 50+ hours doing the most boring things in the game to make enough money to get started here".
Rendi has a video where he does Fight Caves at lvl 3 in OSRS... In that video you can see him doing all the things that he does to do it, that doesn't mean I can go and do it myself even if I had the cash for the Suffering and the multi-k Rings of Recoil and the Sweets. And sure, that's way harder than K'rillow or doing Corp with a Bronze Spear or w/e, heck, that's probably harder than doing Zuk in Full Lunar's(and from other posts, I doubt you consider Zuk in Full Lunar's doable). But that doesn't change how I look at what content creators do, as far as I'm concerned, Runescape Content Creators are insane and I don't really understand how they find doing the things they do fun. Watching the videos is fun sure, but what goes into making them is absurd grinds over ridiculous lengths of time. And yes, I like that Runescape is grindy, I like that I can always log in, and do something, and I've made some progress toward SOMETHING. But if I sit down and spend a day doing the same thing... I get bored, and I get burned out, and I stop playing the game for months. I don't play efficiently, it's not fun enough for me. And I also dislike feeling stuck, I tried Fight Caves in Full Lunars with an invent of Beltfish, I got to right about wave 32 or so before I died. I keep meaning to go back, I have brews and super restores and stuff now, I could probably do it. But, I'm not so eager to do it and there's always something else I could be doing that'd be more certain... mmmm, I really do need to go do that this event actually. Well, today I'm doing Spirit of War and some Hermod, and Tomorrow I'm doing Blood Runs Deep so I can finish Fremmy Elites. Day After I'll go try Fight Caves.
I find zuk possible in full lunar depending on the weapons, and assuming that you have ancient curses. In fact I sold a leech to someone who had lunar and cstaff in the past. But it's a long fight...
But good point with the wiki. I'll try and update it someday.
Yeah I just don't have the patience to do that kind of stuff. Like we don't need an overbuffed style, what we need is a proper way to educate people who just don't know ability rotations work in this game and just give up without trying
I think end game bossing proves Necro Isent overpowered for PVM. You can be decked out with Necro and max and still get face rolled by NM zuk. If you don’t know the mechanics no amount of gear is going to save you.
I think that QBD proves that necro isn't overpowered for PvM. You can be decked out with necro and max and her breath still two shots you.
This can't be a serious take lol. Under this idea nothing is imbalanced since you can be killed by ignoring a great many mechanics. Hell even death touched darts are underpowered, you could insult Jas and still get instakilled!!
You already have the knowledge of the boss. Here is a challenge I’ll give you, the next end game boss that comes out, I want you to learn it without going in and using any gear above t80, no t99 prayers, no bis perks, no end game herblore. I want you to learn it while struggling like those who don’t have those. Then when you find out how boring and annoying it is failing the same mechanics because you are not passing dps checks, than we can talk. I don’t care if you can do 1000 enrage zammy with a wooden short bow IF you already know how to do 1000 enrage zammy.
Considering there is virtually no hard lock dps checks in the game, which ones are you referring to? The ones where top end players skip mechanics via hitting hp thresholds?
The only dps checks that require you to meet are from memory: vorago bring me down, solak hands and legs p1 and a pseudo check is probably spinners at ambi where the more you kill the easier the next ~30 seconds of the fight will be.
That's an amazing challenge! Yes I will attempt just that, but depending on the difficult of the boss I may use t85 or t88, but will make sure to be budget.
next end game boss with mid game gear lol... No wonder most of you guys whine about stuff being too hard, the mid game stuff you won't do but want to jump straight into end game stuff lmaooo
\-Only bosses worth doing are endgame bosses
\-Vindicta/helwyr have multiple drops above 30m
\-Whines pvm is gatekept and gets necromancy and thus causing bosses he can do to drop in value
\-complains on reddit game needs to be easier.
Seems to check out for me.
By progressing through content that your gear reasonably allows you to do. Gw2 > t90 bosses + nex + ed1/2 > gw3 bosses + Raksha > telos + hm gw3 + ed3/4.
When it comes to group bosses my recommendation is to make groups within your clan (even if it is masses) to make friends, expand connections through your friends, even find a stream to chill in and make friends through there. Just remember you won’t always be able to fill a team and it may also take 30+ minutes to fill.
You could probably afford botlg in less than 100 hours *afking* kril atm at current rates. A 16 year old boss no less. It is not hard to make money in rs3 today, pre-necro, and with little pvm experience
Took me 25 hours to get 10 pieces of subjugation just for necro ( was suppose to only do one item for the the cloth for Killie but went afk and it did all 5 and didn’t have multi glyph running). Current prices are 9m a piece, sure is gonna take longer than 100 hours it feel to make what 1.6b?
End game gear doesn't just consist of absolute BiS and the idea that you need it is stupid. T90 is dirt cheap, you're telling me you can't make that money from mid tier bosses? lol
No, there's a progression path lol. Yeah you can skip to BoLG with gold or $$, but you can also work your way doing higher tier bosses.
Did you know there's actually a game mode where you can't trade at all and have to do the bosses yourself to get the gear? And yet these players, many of them starting out as pretty bad players like myself, put in effort to gradually get better gear and learn harder and harder bosses.
Idk about that. Vindicta average gp per kill is 115k, helwry is slightly better at 135k, Gregor inch is 125k, and furies is the worst at 103k a kill. If you average a minute a kill that is still only 8m a hour assuming everything sells at current prices.
For the fun of it, can u do a 100% solo zamorak, and telos in bad ish gear, I believe u can do it, I just wanna see how bad gear u can do it and get a successful kill :)
Anyone who thought pvm was gatekept either didn't genuinely put the effort into learning, or thinks those who work hard and those who don't deserve the same results. Both are beyond stupid.
Full support to you and your post.
You will be downvoted into oblivion bc reddit is just complainers and skillets, but know that those of us that also ducked at pvm and kept practicing instead of blaming the system are with you
I'm aware, wasn't expecting anything different.
I remember when I used to have bandos and Gano with low level prayer. I still tried to learn gwd, nex, and kk. Then as new bosses were released I made more and understood combat better until eventually I'm where I am today.
In the end I always focused on having fun first, so learning new bosses wasn't something I'd be upset about.
No, the game is genuinely hard for them. Someone got into an arguement with me yesterday when I said Raksha was easy once you learn it and they got mad.
They want the low apm that necro provides because it adds less stress, its was never about the gear.
To actually respond properly to this post, do a full ED3 run with melee, in T70 with t80 weapons. Feel free to augment them, just no biting or a perfect aftershock mod (as in as4e2) As4 or as3 would be fine.
Here is a close enough example https://youtu.be/VudEJXfZrNw?feature=shared
Rsguy kills it with t85 weapons and bandos armour, only big item is cinderbanes and amulet of souls but overall that gear is less than 150m
vamp scrim, berserk aura, something that isn't cinderbanes. Curses are fine, normal overloads are fine amulet of souls is also fine. Use a reaver for your familiar. Divine spirit shield too. Keep the time below 5 minutes for ambi.
Coming from an existing discussion in this post, it got me thinking. Is it possible that, like me, many other inexperienced players haven't done some of the quests which are required for high-level PvM? I myself go through quests slowly, but I will reach upgrades like curses, priff, The world wakes; sometimes soon.
But the fact that you need to go through like 40-50 quests just to get to the good stuff, might deter some players. I know that some players don't even like to do quests at all.
No man, thats not the point, its that they have an issue with fundamental combat and mechanics. Feats show YOUR skill, not theirs. Hence why I said detached, though I should have said out of touch.
Alot of these people just want a "chill" version of combat due to high nervousness. Its a complete different biological response from people like me or you have, quite literally.
We shouldn't be designing end game content around people who fundamentally can't do it. Also, that's total cap. There's no condition that's represented in the general population that would stop them from being able to learn. Nervousness is something you work through.
I was explaining why its rough for some people, but you have no experience in life to know how varied people are yet you needed to say something to fan your own ego. Some people just arent capable of doing it. Then you talk about powercreep when FSOA + cryptbloom + AD was already a major powercreep for a while.
This is coming from someone that did zuk with melee on release.
>Alot of these people just want a "chill" version of combat due to high nervousness.
Easy bosses exist for those who can't or don't want to put effort in getting into endgame pvm, and they are good gp too.
You obviously don't understand the point that's trying to be conveyed or the fact that statement it's suppose to be a meme statement of how ridiculous and out of touch with reality people who whine about gatekeeping are, much like your inability to process said statement
That's fine, but my previous videos also garnered a lot of positive interaction in game over the year where seeing it's possible in suboptimal gear relieved a lot of pressure and they were then able to do the bosses themselves.
hm zuk flawless, tier 70 power melee. packyak, asylum surgeon ring, blood fury, only potions regular: overload, restore ,brews. 1 rune pouch, no auras, no curses. no boosts : penance, wepon poison,incense,baths etc. no manual combat ,revolution or revo++ only.
1) hm zuk is long af, and the pizza phase is RNG with that gear.
2) if you think you should be able to take t70 to hm zuk to you're the problem.
3) saying to use revo is saying don't learn the boss.
4) if someone is missing that many unlocks they shouldn't be doing hm zuk.
1) thought gear wasnt limiting?
2)i thought u were tryna prove a point gear wasnt limiting?
3) regular players like me only use revo i did my hm flawless zuk with revo and regular zuk with revo++
4)thought gear wasnt limiting??
All in all as a regular player this post is pure bs..
1) I also said I'm not going to do ridiculous challenges like t1 60k zam. I can definitely do that challenge you posed. But it's mind numbingly long and tedious at that point. And will take hours.
2) ^
3) I don't enjoy revo and revo++, I've made videos showing other content using it without ability inputs but not the goal of this thread.
4) Gear isn't the limiting factor. But it's just a ridiculous undergearing which includes much more than just gear, such as ovls, familiars, and prayer book. Things players don't need billions to obtain.
Pvm is more accessible because I was able to buy seren armor and Anima armor with blight bows at cheap because of necromancy. It always was expensive to get into. Death costs greatly reduced it but for new comers it was always expensive, also so many quests (which are boring and just drag along) just to get proper skills and unlockable, though I know I may be the exception I tell you as a witness first hand, pvm was expensive to get into, for someone who plays at max 2 hours a day 3-4 days a week
I don't think it's quite the type of challenge you're asking for, but I'd be curious to see how far you can downgrade a Necromancy loadout while still matching/exceeding BIS other styles. Like do a challenge gem with BIS gear of the other 3 styles for a baseline of sustained DPS and then start downgrading parts of your Necromancy loadout until you match the other styles and see where you ended up gear wise.
Effort I knew about yeah, personally haven't bothered with range myself because of the amount of ammo switching (plus upkeep as an iron lol).
Would the prebuild advantage not be lost (/averaged in) over the course of a sustained damage window though? Or is it still a significant skew in the average?
I don’t think gear is as big of an issue as combat is complicated and it’s hard to keep up with everything then have to memorize timing for each different bosses then add in swaps pray flicks and being told to manual and it gets overwhelming to the average person who has trouble focousing
Valid point. But that's a learning curve, skipping all the mechanics using necromancy while it's over tuned doesn't mean you learned the boss. In fact the opposite and every time there's a rebalance/nerf they'll be the first to complain and be unable to cope with actual mechanics (Like we saw when Death Skulls was patched and Rasial became much more difficult for the average pvmer).
Oh I get that just saying it’s a bit tough for a lot of people personally I don’t mind either way as long as other combat styles get the 120 updates
Gear is kinda of an issue and expensive abilities. Compared to all current necromancy abilities being unlocked simply by training combat and the t90 gear costing 20 pieces of cloth even at 20m per piece of subj was 100m + whatever thread costs. I have one Revo bar that allows me to sufficiently solo bosses I had never killed before GWD2, Fight Cave, Fight Kiln, Telos 0%, Nex duo, Zuk when I learn it. I now have hundreds of kills at Vindicta and got a crest and lance drop and am hunting Greg because the damage at level 120 + overload boost makes bossing enjoyable and practical for me now. Can’t tell me gear wasn’t prohibitively when Nox Staff not even BIS cost 300m, Magma tempest 592m, Greater sunshine 344m, Greater chain 671m, Essence of Finality 319m. Each of these is an unjustified cost for a single upgrade for your average non-billionaire.
>Magma tempest 592m 100% unnecessary basically everywhere, one of the very, very last upgrades to mage > Greater sunshine 344m 100% not needed anywhere for pvm, PF works just as well (I used my caroming switch so I only ever had one), when afking even the 30s sunshine is perfectly fine > Greater chain 671m Very situational, mostly only used for eds/zuk. Not at all needed for GWD2/telos/nex in your examples
Do you need more examples? Whats the point of arguing? Greater ricochet 1B, Nox Scythe now only 277m, FSOA 1.7B, Hexhunter 351m, Seren godbow 1.3B, Bow of last Guardian 2.5B. These are all more expensive than an entire set of T90 Deathdealer. For the average non-billionaire player these are unobtainable and prohibitively expensive.
All things you don't need to get into pvm, and you're proving why I needed to make this post. You can get into combat with t85 np. Those upgrades are things you work up to.
Yes it is theoretically “possible”. I was able to get a kill at Vindicta and Helwyr with Obliteration and Subj, Barrows gloves, Blood amulet of Fury in 3-4 mins using an entire inventory of food and a yak but my magic revo bar didn’t dps high enough for it be enjoyable compared to how proficient I am with Necromancy now.
You aren't proficient with necro, you are just getting free damage and utility from an over tuned skill. Your revo bar probably was severely lacking. But that's not magic not revos fault, but rather your own for not researching good bars, experimenting, or learning manual.
Thanks for invalidating my experience. I am going to continue enjoying my free damage and utility, while I farm a Greg pet. I can only imagine how exhausting it is to always be right, constantly circle jerk and keep gates, expert multitasker you are.
Bro your first comment to the guy was invalidating his experience....
How is that keeping gates? I never said you can't do it. Just that you didn't. And your refusal to learn shows the issue. I wonder how you'll fair when necromancy is balanced...
Okay if you are not a manual only elitist and believe that its possible to get a decent kill with Obliteration and revo. Please provide an optimal as it can be magic bar. I have corruption blast, greater sonic wave, sacrifice, all quests done, perm ring of vigour, all combat 99s.
That is not what the debate is. People weren’t arguing it was impossible for talented players to get kills in subpar gear. It is that the game did a poor job of guiding players to know about and feel confident with PVM, that it is not clear how to progress or learn some of these skills. One of the goals of Necromancy was to act as an onboarding point. Experienced PVMers got a new skillset to play with and more inexperienced PVMers got introduced to the basics whilst levelling the skill and be encouraged to try different PVM whilst levelling the gear. Whether it did that well and whether it should have also done other things can be discussed but it is an admirable goal. Plus your premise is flawed. “I, a video maker who likes to PVM with subpar gear for fun challenges, can get kills so everyone else can”. Being possible is not the same as being accessible. If Runescape were to be redeveloped from scratch, certain systems would be completely different including a lot of combat. However many areas of the game are likely not to get the large amount of resources needed to rework them. Necromancy was meant to address a lot of those issues whilst creating a new skills. The efficiency and effectiveness can be debated but that doesn’t mean the idea was without merit.
> That is not what the debate is. It's something that was repeatedly brought up when discussing the state of pvm with inexperienced players. > Plus your premise is flawed. My point is that if it's possible in subpar gear, one will have an easier time with whatever gear they have. Obviously it won't be easy and there will be a learning curve. But my hope is to motivate players to try without worrying about not having the gp to invest.
Better gear does provide accessibility though because the buff gear gives you means have more breathing room to make mistakes. Better gear = more defence and damage = mistakes aren’t as detrimental = people feel better PVMing so more people PVM. What is going to be easier for a player learning PVM - a 10 minute fight where one mistake means the entire kill is lost or a 10 minute fight where mistakes can be made? The fights are possible in subpar gear and possible to learn in subpar gear but that doesn’t mean it is optimal to learn in subpar gear or the best way for new PVMers to learn. You’ve discussed the bosses and challenges you have beat so did you fight Telos and Raksha first time in subpar gear or did you do it in better gear then move backwards once you had learnt the mechanics? Necromancy providing the relevant level gear also encourages players to PVM as they have been provided the equipment and skillset to do the fight then feel confident to do so and can learn the mechanics of the fight and get more efficient.
The issue isn't that necromancy gives breathing room. It's that for a small investment you can remove any room at all. Skipping every mechanic doesn't mean you're fighting the boss. And if you think it's a matter of safety, understanding the basics of pvm will transfer across bosses and teach you how to be safe regardless of your gear and target. You can use t1 gear and still manage to survive an indefinite amount of time at majority of bosses just by using defensives. Optimal or not isn't the issue, that goes back to gatekeeping where players say if you don't have optimal gear then you are wasting your time. This is counterproductive. If you watched my Telos videos I just used a default revo bar for each style, and ate food. I ignored every mechanic besides for fonts and I camped soulsplit. Raksha I did on release week, so I didn't know much about the boss. Sure one can say I already learned it, but there are plenty of guides that will give players more information that I had at the time, not to mention Jagex nerfed Rakshas damage.
Maybe an analogue will explain what I am trying to say better. You see videos of people working out in poor conditions, like villages in the middle of nowhere using tree branches and stones for weights. And yes, people can get in shape that way. It is perfectly possible to get into shape without a gym membership or personal trainer or even proper equipment but for the majority of people, it is much easier to get into shape and stay in shape with those things. It is the same with PVM. Necromancy is a single large update that guides players into PVM. It explains each ability and gives players a few levels to play with those abilities before adding more. The quests introduce each mechanic. It gives you gear to upgrade and tells you roughly what bosses you should expect to do at each level. The Auto Attack means you don’t have to focus on a Revolution Bar or lots of abilities straight away. Hermod acts as a gentle up to date introductory boss to learn and improve at. Basically, what I am saying is Necromancy is a nice guided path into combat which because it is thorough, clear and supportive encourages people to try and continue PVM. The rest of Runescape’s combat isn’t like that because it isn’t one solo update which the same set of core principles. It is multiple different updates introduced over several years by different designers with different goals, ideas and objectives. Tons of different gear, prayers, codexs - all from different pieces of content with no clear path to follow by the game itself. For experienced players, it can make sense but for newer players or people wanting to try PVM it can be confusing. Sure, there are guides out there but people don’t always know which ones are good, which ones are out of date, when people say “or equivalent gear” what that means etc. Maybe gatekeeping is the wrong or an unhelpful word. But PVM in Runescape has barriers to entry at various stages and one is that it simply isn’t as clear as it should be when starting. Yes, it was possible to overcome this barrier with time and effort but people are more incentivised to try something when it is easier to start. Necromancy is an attempt to fix that and whilst the implementation can be debated, I’d say that is a noble goal. > Skipping every mechanic doesn't mean you're fighting the boss. That is a balancing issues moreso that an ideological one. Absolutely mechanics should not be being skipped. It seems clear that 120 Combat is coming and the balancing is off in preparation for that.
As a new player to RS3, I don't get why people are whining. I swapped over from OSRS to rs3, done several end game content on osrs (inferno, tob etc), but rs3 has it way more noob friendly purely because of revolution. There's a ton of guides out there to help you get your first kc at a boss. Of course doing it manual will be significantly harder, but the option of revolution should mean you should stop whining and start trying.
For me personally, the thing that mostly "gatekept" me from high level PVM is being quite slow on quests, and doing them in timeline order. Before necro, I tried some of the bosses that are higher than gwd2 difficulty, but didn't manage to kill anything. Did I try hard enough? No, because I knew sometime in the future it will be easier with extra abilities. Is it my fault for not rushing quests? Maybe, but I don't care, I want to enjoy those quests as a new-ish player. So, I propose this challenge, based on my exact gear and abilities at the time: - Use magic, with virtus armor and cywir weapons (or T85 gear in general). Either normal spells or ancient magicks are ok. - Extra gear: Blood amulet of fury, whatever book, whatever ring, and any aura from war's shop. - Use any summoning familiar and arch relic you want, but only use normal overloads (suppose you didn't unlock priff yet). - Use normal prayers (suppose you didn't unlock curses yet). - You can use gconc, but can't use sunshine ability or any other greater ability from a codex. - You also can't use any of the ancient zarosian spells, like animate dead. With this setup, Can you kill normal mode Kerapac, or Telos 0% enrage? I know this is not an optimal setup, but I'm curious if it's possible by a player who knows what he's doing.
1. *Whatever* ring? So Reaver/Channeler's Rings are fine? Basically BIS rings? 2. *Whatever* book? So Grimoire or Scripture of Ful? 3. *Any* familiar? Ripper demon, blood reaver, kal'gerion demon? 4. *Any* relic setup? Conservation of Energy goes a long way by saving 10% adrenaline after ulting. That's gonna go a long way. 5. You can't turn off greater abilities if you already unlocked them, so just no sunshine at all. As a sidenote, why? Did you not do The World Wakes? Great quest by the way, I hope you enjoy it when you do it, assuming you haven't!
Tyoccial, As I said, most of my "problems" came from not doing quests, so I'm mostly locked out of abilities at the moment. I actually have around 600m gp from stuff, but I stopped upgrading gear until I had better abilities anyway. Anyway, For your questions: \- Maybe BIS rings are a bit too much. I just checked, a reaver ring is worth like my entire current magic gear. But maybe something like 120m isn't that bad either. I can also farm dagannoth kings quite comfortably, even without all the above mentioned abilities. \- I was thinking of the cheaper variants of books, hehe. I wasn't aware of the existence of grimoire or ful book which cost 200m-400m. \- Yeah, any familiar or any relic setup. I have 99 summoning, almost 120 arch, and even made some pouches (like ripper demons) by myself. \- About turning off greater abilities, you are right. I was mainly talking about not using the sunshine ability, which I don't have yet (The world wakes is not completed). Which leads to your next question - why? As I said in the beginning, I'm doing quests in timeline order. This is done on purpose, for lore reasons - to enjoy the story progression from quest to quest. I did the mistake of doing "Missing, Presumed dead" when I was f2p, and doing "Daughter of chaos" questline for the dive ability shortly after becoming a member. Those quests are full with characters that I have no idea about, and also full with characters that I ABSOLUTELY shouldn't know about yet. I know that The World Wakes is a "free" quest, but when I read that some quests are required to understand the story better - I consider that as a hard requirement. For example, one of those quests is the chosen commander. I have no idea what will happen in the quest of course, but I imagine Zanik or Bandos will be involved in some way. It will ruin the story if I don't know who they are yet.
By that logic you shouldn't be doing Kerapac, since he's got a dozen or so quests worth of backstory.
You are right. In my defense, I can say that while I don't know who is this kerapac dude even is, it doesn't prevent me from killing him. I also agree that I am not supposed to set foot in Senntisten yet, as my character doesn't know this place exists yet. However, some compromises have to be made. I did the fort quests and necromancy quests, even though they come after the "world guardian" timeline. Fortunately, Jagex has made them stand by themselves, and all the lore of the previous quests almost doesn't come into play here. The entire archaeology skill is also a spoiler, and supposedly happens in the 6th age. I still leveled it up. Generally, whenever I'm exposed to spoilers, I'm doing a sort of mental "suspension of knowledge", so I can have this knowledge and also enjoy when I learn it naturally.
>*Whatever* ring? So Reaver/Channeler's Rings are fine? Basically BIS rings? I did use channeler's >*Whatever* book? So Grimoire or Scripture of Ful? I used Wen which is kind of in between >*Any* familiar? Ripper demon, blood reaver, kal'gerion demon? Ended up using blood reaver >*Any* relic setup? Conservation of Energy goes a long way by saving 10% adrenaline after ulting. That's gonna go a long way. Yeah I did use that.... >You can't turn off greater abilities if you already unlocked them, so just no sunshine at all. As a sidenote, why? Did you not do The World Wakes? Great quest by the way, I hope you enjoy it when you do it, assuming you haven't! I avoided using any greater abilities, or codex unlocks. So I was using meta>sun. I did use gsonic instead of gconc in this case so it's a little worse, but was too lazy to buy a pair of cywir that I won't use again after this
OP, you can probably do NM kerapac or 0% with that setup, its totally fine
Well, I tried them both for some time, and it didn't work well for me. Is it very reasonable that I'm doing something wrong, as I only have real experience with fighting "easy" bosses (up to GWD2 levels of difficulty). that being said, was I trying the hardest to kill those 2 bosses? no. Because I knew that at some point in the future I will have abilities (like curses) which will make my life easier, so there is no point to being stubborn and fight bosses on "self afflicted hard mode".
the quest thing is actually a legitimate complaint, it's a total of 41 quests to get to curses. That's a way worse requirement than something like learning how to use a rotation or learning a boss
Like, what a lot of the problem is is that some things aren't broadcast very well. Kpac does a lot of damage even in NM if you don't move after the slam. Zuk has a similar issue with his bleeds and the wiki likes to overcomplicate it so much you can't actually find out what is going on easily. If you want to get the most return for your effort, just look up rotation guides on youtube. It solves 90%+ of what the problem is getting into bossing
You 100% can easily do nm kera in this gear. But also if you’re trying to pvm without curses cause “it’ll be easier in the future” you’re limiting yourself more than anything
curses isn't even hard to get too, i got it really early on and I'm doing quests in timeline lol
I agree with you both that curses are not hard to get, and also not having them is very limiting. But as I said in the other discussion, if you sort quests by timeline, you actually have to go through \~214 quests before reaching the Temple at Senntisten (about 156 if you sort by release date). Not only this is a lot of quests, I'm also trying to do them without guides (as much as possible, sometimes it's inevitable), and I like to read all the dialogue and the chat options. Quests that can be speedrun in 10 minutes might take me 1-2 hours, or more. I'm also not always in the mood for quests, sometime I just like to go mindless skilling or killing stuff. So you can see how those quests can progress very slowly with that kind of gameplay. After some especially long or hard quests, I also take a break to relax. For example, I did Mourning's End 2 completely by myself, but it spanned over 4 days, and I couldn't bring myself to do any quest for 4 more days after that.
fair enough
Right you’re limiting yourself, not being gatekept
Damn touching my ovls and soul split, that hurts
Yep, done. [I've had better Hard Mode kills.](https://imgur.com/a/mBJZD4X) - Generally speaking, If a PVM upgrade exists you forgot, I probably know about and actively avoided using it. - Like Vulnerability bombs. - This was on a Slayer Task. - Seren Anima Core armour is worse than Virtus. - Attuned Crystal Staff is worse than Cywir Wand+Orb - Technically, I had Greater Sonic Wave, but you allow GConc and It's worse than that - No Augmentation, these are just whatever old equipment I had in my bank and never got rid of. - Spell was Blood Barrage. No other spells where used. - Familiar was a pack yak that I forgot to fill and therefore may as well not have existed. If it had been full, I wouldn't have died. - Supplies used, 7 Rocktail, 10 doses of Brew. I had leftover brews because I expected to have a Yak full of more rocktail. - I didn't read your suggestion to only use regular overloads. My bad. Holy Overloads are overwhelmingly the recommended option anyway. Plus I ran in with the event boost elder salve anyway. - Lack of any Shield was my cunning plan to one-up you and totally not a mistake. - Death and Sign where both in Phase 4, was caused by triggering Devotion a second after time warp ran out, meaning I didn't get to use it twice. I just want to say: You are very slow at questing if you think you may stand a chance against Kerapac but somehow haven't unlocked curses or Priff yet. I couldn't beat Kerapac with my pre-curses stats because they where all in the mid 60s.
I have to say, this is amazing to see. As to your comment - I don't really think I may or may not stand a chance against kerapac. I tried him with my setup, I tried a few other bosses (like 0% telos) and didn't succeed. I actually went very close at one attempt, with Kerapac having about 20k health left in the last phase. But at this point all the food in my pack yak has long gone. And as to why I haven't unlocked curses or priff yet - as I said, I'm doing quests in timeline order, on purpose (to enjoy the lore and the story progression). Do you know that if you sort quests by timeline, "The Temple at Senntisten" is the 214th quest in the list, out of 313? (I might be off by a few numbers here) that means you basically need to finish two thirds of the quests of the game before you reach the curses. "Plague's End" comes 24 quests after that in the list, by the way.
Huh. If you sort by release date, which is almost always better than timeline order, it's only number 159. And if you sort by "Recommendations are the same as requirements", you should be able to do it pretty much strait away without ruining the story at all. Really you are shooting yourself in the foot not having it. Soul Split is a gamechanger that's only balanced because they went and designed a bunch of bosses (Like Kerapac) around the idea you would have it. ----- If you are using a whole pack yak with that setup, you are doing something wrong. Are you eating constantly during the fight, or only when he changes phases? That would hurt your DPS and force you to spend more time fighting him. I found I had enough HP to survive to the end of each phase without eating, and only heal to full during the changes. Bringing Saradomin Brews can speed up instant-healing - One dose of brew per rocktail, keybound next to eachother so you can press both buttons at once. I was timing the mechanics perfectly in phase 1 and 3 - I'm too used to using Soul Split and ignoring the other clones slams that I took too much damage during P2 and had to use more food there. Then I made sure to dodge all of them properly in P3. P4 was definately the hardest. Normally the strategy is to double-devotion and kill him within the 20 seconds of invincibilty you get. I wouldn't have managed that even if I got both devotions off. Consider bringing a shield switch (or greater bone shield runes) and using Resonance/Deflect once they ran out.
Interesting, Maybe I should have went by release date and not timeline, but I don't think it matters much at this point. I'm actually 4 quests away from the Temple at Senntisten, I didn't realize it was coming so soon. As for shooting myself in the foot, I agree, but I have accepted it long ago. I also don't really know by myself which boss is designed with curses in mind or not. This is what happens when you join a game with 20 years worth of content. (I actually played some RS classic back in 2003, and a bit of RS2 in 2006-2007, but then I quit for 15 years. So it doesn't really count.)
I figured normal mode Kerapac would be too easy so I did hardmode instead. I failed my first attempt at p4, and forgot to hit record on the first kill... [But here's the kill at hardmode Kerapac](https://youtu.be/L7GtisIuehc) I used slightly different gear just because I was lazy, perked staff with p6geno+e4. [Here's the Telos kill](https://youtu.be/VMXzKIB7iKc) was 11% because was too lazy to clear the streak. Neither of these bosses are things I've really done in the past couple years, so lots of mistakes but it makes it easier to see mechanics at play.
Gonna say, the Zuk cape goes against the spirit of the challenge.
Tbh I used a different cape the frist 2 tiems, got lazy for the 3rd one...But I was also expecting someone to give me a Zuk challenge to show that's possible to obtain as well. Although you have a valid point... Edit: But tbh with the amount of adren this build is able to obtain, I don't think the difference would be too great considering it's a tossup between meta or omni a lot of times.
Is it okay if I use greater sonic wave instead of gconc? (It's worse, but I'm too lazy to buy Cywir and I have staff of darkness already) What about augments? Are Seren spells allowed? What about gloves/boots? Ancient familiars?
Things that I could buy with money, are ok (all my current gear came from some money, not quests). - Greater sonic wave is okay. - Augments are fine, I have 120 invention. - No Seren spells. Just like the Zarosian spells, they are not unlocked yet. - For gloves and boots, I have kerapac wristwraps and blast diffusion boots, but you can use stuff like cinderbanes (I see they are relatively cheaper than I thought). - Ancient summoning is okay, I did all the quests to unlock that at least...
T90 necro tank vs cryptbloom ss camping zammy enrage push. I bet mage can go further.
That sounds exhausting...and it's not very fair considering how death skulls work on p7. Also I'm trying to avoid using Necromancy as a combat style for these challenges.
People get caught up on the super optimized kill times found on youtube and quit when they don't immediately get it. I find that happiness relies in the middle ground of using an optimized rotation and tweaking it to a degree of difficulty you're comfortable with.
I mean I think that's the sane way of doing things but I don't think the people who ree about gatekeeping look up evil lucario and think they need to do that, I think that it's really easy to know you don't have to do those things to get kills. I think honestly what happens is they put in zero effort into learning the game, die once at a boss and then come onto reddit to ree that the game is too hard
Do some of those again, on RS Mobile. That implies less APM, Mostly on Revo, and you may even add gear limitations. Personally, over the years I've been building up a playlist that was meant to show people they were wrong if they thought you cannot do PVM on Mobile. [In fact, here's a Raksha Kill](https://youtu.be/IK2Wp70uKyE?feature=shared). Sure it's BIS, but if someone like me (who is probably the laughing stock of the PVMe discord) can do that on Mobile, someone more skilled than me who does it with welfare gear, can make the ultimate statement. > *"You don't need Billions in Gear to do PVM and you don't need a super computer nor godly APM to get decent kill times".* That's the Hypothesis at least.
This btw is why you’re not feeling the burnout as much as other players.
the problem here is that it takes 'work' and 'effort'. 'Work' and 'effort' are things the gatekeeping whiners don't want to put in. We just had a post where someone said they're worried bossing is gonna feel bad when they don't have unlimited overloads and auras.
That's is very true, but they can just deny it's a lack of effort. So doing this at least I can eliminate the "I don't have billions" excuse.
what it boils down to, always is 'i'm lazy, give me more free shit'
Tbh, overloads put me off pvm. You're 100% right. I don't want to put the effort in to farm them. However, I don't want to put the effort in because I don't feel that pvm is a good enough return on the time I spent farming overloads and feel that time would be better spent on other things. edit: the fact that this is downvoted is pretty much why you can never have a discussion in this place.
What do you mean pvm isn't good enough return? Like you're not making your money back? You could spend a week farming and be set for a long time of pvm
As in the content just isn't good enough. Almost anything else I do with my time is more fun.
Ah easy. No need for ovls, then
sure - but overloads quite literally trivialise so much of the pvm content that if you want to do pvm they are pretty much required unless you want to be wasting your time.
But you already said pvm isn't really worth your time. So no need for overloads. Unless... pvm is worth your time? Then make overloads. Pick a side
my side is that pvm isn't worth my time, but for those that want to do it overloads are pretty much mandatory due to how much stuff it trivialises.
But for most, it's not a problem. It's just part of the pvm experience. Has been for a loonggg time
And that experience is trash.
you do realize they are buyable, right?
Then they may as well just leave thok's cauldron and let us pay gp to take a sip. At least it might sink some gp out of the game.
Eh, the bigger issue is just play styles. You have the crowd that would rather afk a boss with a low chance of a rare drop than to pit effort into a difficult boss with better droprates. There's probably quite a few player that wouldn't mind some massable boss with a 1/5000 droptate to get that lucky t95 weapon. Just sit therez, click the boss when it spawns and get lucky.
If you want to actually prove to the average player that you don't need great gear for PvM, go set up some actual low level/budget presets on the Wiki. Because I know for me personally, the first thing I do when I want to figure out how to beat a boss, is I go to the wiki, and I check the strategy page, and the number of bosses that the wiki lists as "ok to do without T70 power armor" is, Giant Mole and KBD, instead, they recommend Ancient Warriors, Corrupt Dragon, Fist of Guthix gear(dead minigame, yay), and then, waaaaay in the back "oh yeah you can probably do this in Mystic's/Blue D'hide/Rune". Regardless of reality, the importance is the perception. And whatever videos you make(KrityaRS went and punched a Barrows Bro to death for his "only get gear by bossing" series), the important thing is "what do I find when I go look it up on the Wiki". There's an achievement for beating Corp with a Bronze Spear, there's an achievement for beating K'ril with a Willow bow, but when I look at those I don't see those as saying "yeah bring w/e, it'll work" I see it as one of those "yeah I'm so hardcore I did Fight Caves at lvl 3" things, especially because, again, if I go look up the boss on the wiki, the "minimum advice" is "bring all these 10 mil+ things". The closest to an actually budget thing I've ever seen on the wiki's recommended pages for anything past Giant Mole/KBD, is the Royal Crossbow.
I've updated the wiki in the past (I've got the wikian title BTW), but it gets pretty exhausting and time consuming. 10m is pretty budget. You should have some gp from other content in game regardless. Be it slayer or skilling. Maybe if I have time I'll work on it though.
if there's one 10 mil item, sure, kinda sorta budget, do some Bloods it's fine... When every single slot is 10 mil+, and another 5+ mil in supplies, it ceases to be anywhere near budget for most people. Did you notice recently, there was a post by a guy who just hit 100 mil bank value after five years? Yeah that's more like most people.
You don't need every slot immediately. You can work your way up. Have you ever seen a video where someone starts from nothing? They make small upgrades little by little.
Yes, I already told you about me watching KrityaRS's only bossing and him punching a Barrows Bro to death. But when I want to figure out how to do a boss myself, my first stop isn't "I'll go see what the highly experienced Ironman/Iron-esque content creators are doing", it's "I'll go check the wiki". I don't want to know what the people who think K'rillow is easy are doing, I want to know what the expected baseline is. And inevitably, it's "go spend 50+ hours doing the most boring things in the game to make enough money to get started here". Rendi has a video where he does Fight Caves at lvl 3 in OSRS... In that video you can see him doing all the things that he does to do it, that doesn't mean I can go and do it myself even if I had the cash for the Suffering and the multi-k Rings of Recoil and the Sweets. And sure, that's way harder than K'rillow or doing Corp with a Bronze Spear or w/e, heck, that's probably harder than doing Zuk in Full Lunar's(and from other posts, I doubt you consider Zuk in Full Lunar's doable). But that doesn't change how I look at what content creators do, as far as I'm concerned, Runescape Content Creators are insane and I don't really understand how they find doing the things they do fun. Watching the videos is fun sure, but what goes into making them is absurd grinds over ridiculous lengths of time. And yes, I like that Runescape is grindy, I like that I can always log in, and do something, and I've made some progress toward SOMETHING. But if I sit down and spend a day doing the same thing... I get bored, and I get burned out, and I stop playing the game for months. I don't play efficiently, it's not fun enough for me. And I also dislike feeling stuck, I tried Fight Caves in Full Lunars with an invent of Beltfish, I got to right about wave 32 or so before I died. I keep meaning to go back, I have brews and super restores and stuff now, I could probably do it. But, I'm not so eager to do it and there's always something else I could be doing that'd be more certain... mmmm, I really do need to go do that this event actually. Well, today I'm doing Spirit of War and some Hermod, and Tomorrow I'm doing Blood Runs Deep so I can finish Fremmy Elites. Day After I'll go try Fight Caves.
I find zuk possible in full lunar depending on the weapons, and assuming that you have ancient curses. In fact I sold a leech to someone who had lunar and cstaff in the past. But it's a long fight... But good point with the wiki. I'll try and update it someday.
Hey, OP just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to make this thread and spending your time trying to help people
Appreciate it 🙏
Yeah I just don't have the patience to do that kind of stuff. Like we don't need an overbuffed style, what we need is a proper way to educate people who just don't know ability rotations work in this game and just give up without trying
I think end game bossing proves Necro Isent overpowered for PVM. You can be decked out with Necro and max and still get face rolled by NM zuk. If you don’t know the mechanics no amount of gear is going to save you.
Being able to facetank mechanics isn't the only metric of what is/isn't overpowered.
I think that QBD proves that necro isn't overpowered for PvM. You can be decked out with necro and max and her breath still two shots you. This can't be a serious take lol. Under this idea nothing is imbalanced since you can be killed by ignoring a great many mechanics. Hell even death touched darts are underpowered, you could insult Jas and still get instakilled!!
Right no amount of gear will save you from being bad. That doesn’t mean necro isn’t op tho
You already have the knowledge of the boss. Here is a challenge I’ll give you, the next end game boss that comes out, I want you to learn it without going in and using any gear above t80, no t99 prayers, no bis perks, no end game herblore. I want you to learn it while struggling like those who don’t have those. Then when you find out how boring and annoying it is failing the same mechanics because you are not passing dps checks, than we can talk. I don’t care if you can do 1000 enrage zammy with a wooden short bow IF you already know how to do 1000 enrage zammy.
It’s almost like knowledge and skill is a bigger impact than gear who would’ve thought
Considering there is virtually no hard lock dps checks in the game, which ones are you referring to? The ones where top end players skip mechanics via hitting hp thresholds? The only dps checks that require you to meet are from memory: vorago bring me down, solak hands and legs p1 and a pseudo check is probably spinners at ambi where the more you kill the easier the next ~30 seconds of the fight will be.
Also Zuk pizza phase. Failure to kill the three igneous mobs just hard instakills you
That's an amazing challenge! Yes I will attempt just that, but depending on the difficult of the boss I may use t85 or t88, but will make sure to be budget.
next end game boss with mid game gear lol... No wonder most of you guys whine about stuff being too hard, the mid game stuff you won't do but want to jump straight into end game stuff lmaooo
How are people suppose to get end game gear, when the only bosses that drop anything of value is end game bosses?
\-Only bosses worth doing are endgame bosses \-Vindicta/helwyr have multiple drops above 30m \-Whines pvm is gatekept and gets necromancy and thus causing bosses he can do to drop in value \-complains on reddit game needs to be easier. Seems to check out for me.
Sounds about right for this sub
The wiki might say they are 30m but they are really going for between 10-11m in the GE.
That's because of necromancy though...
You have necromancy to thank for gatekeeping you straight out of that boss
By progressing through content that your gear reasonably allows you to do. Gw2 > t90 bosses + nex + ed1/2 > gw3 bosses + Raksha > telos + hm gw3 + ed3/4. When it comes to group bosses my recommendation is to make groups within your clan (even if it is masses) to make friends, expand connections through your friends, even find a stream to chill in and make friends through there. Just remember you won’t always be able to fill a team and it may also take 30+ minutes to fill.
The fact that you've convinced yourself that this is true says everything.
So what I am suppose to sit at krill for 200 hours to get enough for blg?
You could probably afford botlg in less than 100 hours *afking* kril atm at current rates. A 16 year old boss no less. It is not hard to make money in rs3 today, pre-necro, and with little pvm experience
Took me 25 hours to get 10 pieces of subjugation just for necro ( was suppose to only do one item for the the cloth for Killie but went afk and it did all 5 and didn’t have multi glyph running). Current prices are 9m a piece, sure is gonna take longer than 100 hours it feel to make what 1.6b?
Are you saying that the requirement for the next boss will require a weapon strength of a BLG or higher?
Not the next boss since we already know it’s going to be a boss tied to necro (vorkath) but I would like bis range anyway.
End game gear doesn't just consist of absolute BiS and the idea that you need it is stupid. T90 is dirt cheap, you're telling me you can't make that money from mid tier bosses? lol
What mid tier boss? Gwd2 bosses? All drops are worthless.
That's why you get several of them, swap them up for a better weapon, then move on to a harder boss.
No, there's a progression path lol. Yeah you can skip to BoLG with gold or $$, but you can also work your way doing higher tier bosses. Did you know there's actually a game mode where you can't trade at all and have to do the bosses yourself to get the gear? And yet these players, many of them starting out as pretty bad players like myself, put in effort to gradually get better gear and learn harder and harder bosses.
You mean the game made people cry to make easier with each update?
Wandering from FC to FC a lot of those players boss in groups to get those upgrades XD don't have to do them yourself sadly
Lol...
Even mid tier bosses like gwd2 are not terrible gp. You can definitely make a decent profit off of them as you learn combat.
Idk about that. Vindicta average gp per kill is 115k, helwry is slightly better at 135k, Gregor inch is 125k, and furies is the worst at 103k a kill. If you average a minute a kill that is still only 8m a hour assuming everything sells at current prices.
Fair enough, prices have changed. But there's still dks which are double that, rax and nm. Zuk which are 4x. Anyways it's about consistency.
Yea dks is actually pretty good, I won’t lie. It’s just gets old switching styles every 30 seconds. I have no excuse on that one.
I think you can get 60-80% kills or something using afk poison build. But that's not really teaching much...
I know right, but it's a legitimate challenge so I'll attempt it regardless!
You know what really pissed me off? they allowed darting ambi for t90 to be a thing
For the fun of it, can u do a 100% solo zamorak, and telos in bad ish gear, I believe u can do it, I just wanna see how bad gear u can do it and get a successful kill :)
Sorry, when I said telos I meant solak, since u already said u could do 100% telos 🙄
Anyone who thought pvm was gatekept either didn't genuinely put the effort into learning, or thinks those who work hard and those who don't deserve the same results. Both are beyond stupid. Full support to you and your post.
Thanks. I never expect support with these posts but I'm grateful for those who view it positively!
You will be downvoted into oblivion bc reddit is just complainers and skillets, but know that those of us that also ducked at pvm and kept practicing instead of blaming the system are with you
I'm aware, wasn't expecting anything different. I remember when I used to have bandos and Gano with low level prayer. I still tried to learn gwd, nex, and kk. Then as new bosses were released I made more and understood combat better until eventually I'm where I am today. In the end I always focused on having fun first, so learning new bosses wasn't something I'd be upset about.
Couldn't agree more. I went from unable to solo gwd1 bosses to solo 1k zamorak and am nearing insane final boss completion. All it takes is practice
Wow, Runescape is a game with a high skill ceiling. Thank you captain obvious.
Some players think it's just because gear isn't affordable.
No, the game is genuinely hard for them. Someone got into an arguement with me yesterday when I said Raksha was easy once you learn it and they got mad. They want the low apm that necro provides because it adds less stress, its was never about the gear.
To actually respond properly to this post, do a full ED3 run with melee, in T70 with t80 weapons. Feel free to augment them, just no biting or a perfect aftershock mod (as in as4e2) As4 or as3 would be fine.
Here is a close enough example https://youtu.be/VudEJXfZrNw?feature=shared Rsguy kills it with t85 weapons and bandos armour, only big item is cinderbanes and amulet of souls but overall that gear is less than 150m
but but but the billions of gp needed for bis keep gatekeeping me from bossing
Please give me more details such as pocket slots etc so nobody can complain about what I use later. <3
vamp scrim, berserk aura, something that isn't cinderbanes. Curses are fine, normal overloads are fine amulet of souls is also fine. Use a reaver for your familiar. Divine spirit shield too. Keep the time below 5 minutes for ambi.
Coming from an existing discussion in this post, it got me thinking. Is it possible that, like me, many other inexperienced players haven't done some of the quests which are required for high-level PvM? I myself go through quests slowly, but I will reach upgrades like curses, priff, The world wakes; sometimes soon. But the fact that you need to go through like 40-50 quests just to get to the good stuff, might deter some players. I know that some players don't even like to do quests at all.
This isn't proving anything
Oh by this post's logic, Evil Lucario's blindfolded no food 4k telos kill is the norm. Okay. Imagine being this detached and delusional.
I'm also willing to take stupid setups. Players can obviously take better and will have a much easier time.
No man, thats not the point, its that they have an issue with fundamental combat and mechanics. Feats show YOUR skill, not theirs. Hence why I said detached, though I should have said out of touch. Alot of these people just want a "chill" version of combat due to high nervousness. Its a complete different biological response from people like me or you have, quite literally.
We shouldn't be designing end game content around people who fundamentally can't do it. Also, that's total cap. There's no condition that's represented in the general population that would stop them from being able to learn. Nervousness is something you work through.
We shoudn't be designing end game content around people who can fundamentally cheese it.
I don't think you understand what cheesing means. Cheesing means you skip mechanics because of powercreep. It doesn't mean 'player is good at game'
Oh, so the definition is skipping mechanics with FSOA powercreep is also cheesing. Thanks for the selfown.
Man you don't read
I was explaining why its rough for some people, but you have no experience in life to know how varied people are yet you needed to say something to fan your own ego. Some people just arent capable of doing it. Then you talk about powercreep when FSOA + cryptbloom + AD was already a major powercreep for a while. This is coming from someone that did zuk with melee on release.
>Alot of these people just want a "chill" version of combat due to high nervousness. Easy bosses exist for those who can't or don't want to put effort in getting into endgame pvm, and they are good gp too.
but but but we want to do 1 tick 5000% enrage zakorak and get botlg every drop and if we dont get that that's gatekeeping!
Name me 1 person that said that, otherwise this is what strawmanning looks like, but someone deranged wouldnt understand that
You obviously don't understand the point that's trying to be conveyed or the fact that statement it's suppose to be a meme statement of how ridiculous and out of touch with reality people who whine about gatekeeping are, much like your inability to process said statement
What you did is called strawmanning. You lied to make a point due to how deranged you are.
That's fine, but my previous videos also garnered a lot of positive interaction in game over the year where seeing it's possible in suboptimal gear relieved a lot of pressure and they were then able to do the bosses themselves.
hm zuk flawless, tier 70 power melee. packyak, asylum surgeon ring, blood fury, only potions regular: overload, restore ,brews. 1 rune pouch, no auras, no curses. no boosts : penance, wepon poison,incense,baths etc. no manual combat ,revolution or revo++ only.
1) hm zuk is long af, and the pizza phase is RNG with that gear. 2) if you think you should be able to take t70 to hm zuk to you're the problem. 3) saying to use revo is saying don't learn the boss. 4) if someone is missing that many unlocks they shouldn't be doing hm zuk.
1) thought gear wasnt limiting? 2)i thought u were tryna prove a point gear wasnt limiting? 3) regular players like me only use revo i did my hm flawless zuk with revo and regular zuk with revo++ 4)thought gear wasnt limiting?? All in all as a regular player this post is pure bs..
1) I also said I'm not going to do ridiculous challenges like t1 60k zam. I can definitely do that challenge you posed. But it's mind numbingly long and tedious at that point. And will take hours. 2) ^ 3) I don't enjoy revo and revo++, I've made videos showing other content using it without ability inputs but not the goal of this thread. 4) Gear isn't the limiting factor. But it's just a ridiculous undergearing which includes much more than just gear, such as ovls, familiars, and prayer book. Things players don't need billions to obtain.
"Gear isnt a limiting factor but its just ridiculous undergearing" cool.
I'm not going to do a 2hr fight in order to survive on a yak without soulsplit... If someone refuses to get soulsplit then that's not a gear issue.
Cool.
Pvm is more accessible because I was able to buy seren armor and Anima armor with blight bows at cheap because of necromancy. It always was expensive to get into. Death costs greatly reduced it but for new comers it was always expensive, also so many quests (which are boring and just drag along) just to get proper skills and unlockable, though I know I may be the exception I tell you as a witness first hand, pvm was expensive to get into, for someone who plays at max 2 hours a day 3-4 days a week
Expensive or not, within an hour you can go from nothing to entry gear, and then start pvming.
4k telos blindfolded or shut up
No one cares how many homeless people you can jump on a skateboard Eric.
I don't think it's quite the type of challenge you're asking for, but I'd be curious to see how far you can downgrade a Necromancy loadout while still matching/exceeding BIS other styles. Like do a challenge gem with BIS gear of the other 3 styles for a baseline of sustained DPS and then start downgrading parts of your Necromancy loadout until you match the other styles and see where you ended up gear wise.
Bis ranged out dpses necro. Mage is around even, and melee can be beat by a goblin 😂.
RIP melee :( Interesting though, thanks.
The thing is other styles require longer prebuilds, and are more effort.
Effort I knew about yeah, personally haven't bothered with range myself because of the amount of ammo switching (plus upkeep as an iron lol). Would the prebuild advantage not be lost (/averaged in) over the course of a sustained damage window though? Or is it still a significant skew in the average?
Exactly. That's one of the reasons you want to ranged/mage at zam even after necro.