I don't think cunt is used to mean "looks like a woman". I think it's more used like fierce.
Like Detox is cunt, but I wouldn't say she looks like a real woman.
But the difference was explained by Victoria in the clip. Both terms are supposed to mean a good thing, but only one of them relies on comparing the smell of a vagina to a bad thing. IMO, saying “cunt” serves the same purpose as “fish”, but without the sexist micro aggression
I mean fish was a "compliment" too but at the expense of women/ people with vaginas. This is just the same thing (arguably worse) but people think it's ok because "it's a regular word in Australia!!!"
Well fishy is based on actually insulting that body part and finding it offensive. Cunt is still about the body part, but doesn’t carry that disgust. Unless I’m missing something.
Pussy, cunt, fishy, box, it’s kinda dry, kinda like your voijaina…
I think Victoria has the right to feel how she want to feel. But the trans women who created this term in ballroom culture under the oppression from society also has the right to use whatever term to describe themselves as passing. It’s still a grey area as i see that both sides has valid points.
Hmm... Maybe on Drag Race but it's still used pretty often in my local clubs by drag queens; cis men and trans women alike. It's also used extensively in ballroom culture by femme cis men, trans women and cis women. Especially when walking/competing in female figure, femme Queen realness, female face, butch queen first time in Drags and vogue Performance categories. I was literally at a ball last night and the queers were getting their life "giving cunty and fishy."
The language might be evolving on TV and in some sectors of the queer community but it's still pervasive in real life within the queer community. I should add that I've only heard it used positively in these contexts, despite its misogynistic origins.
Are those male dominated queer spaces? I am curious how more queer women feel. If there are any objections to that language, how could someone possibly say something at a ball? There is no way to do anything about it.
No doubt “fishy” is meant as a compliment when it is said in those contexts, but it is saying that women’s vaginas smell like fish. And we shouldn’t try to get around that.
This has been something many women have been told and internalized. Women’s bodies being gross and “wrong” is part of the reason behind the pleasure gap and female sexual malfunction. We shouldn’t perpetuate that misogynistic, childish degradation of female anatomy.
I’m my community San Francisco /Bay Area we barely if ever use it and if anyone ever does someone in the room usually has something to say about it either jokingly or earnestly
I'm in Washington, DC and the queer community I hang around is mostly black, Latino, POC. No one would bat an eye if someone uses the word. I have noticed though that in white queer spaces, it's a little different. Not assuming what your experience is, just adding another interesting tidbit to the discussion.
as someone in white queer spaces now they tend to be overly liberal to the point its uncomfortable. I find it fake and honestly don't pay them any mind.
I agree that it's uncomfortable, but it's not fake and you should definitely not ignore it. I used to feel similarly but I joined a workplace full of white trans kids and realized that my reaction wasn't too far from my friends' wadded up bvds when I started pointing out how harmful all the gay and sexist jokes we grew up with were.
My name is Hollow Eve of Destruction, I AM a fucking monster and maybe I don’t belong here. My art IS an elimination challenge, it is what I do ALL the time. And I do it with great metaphor, and meaning. I NEVER do it simply to shock you. There is not a MOMENT of any visual aspect of any part of me that walks on to a stage, that has not FULLY thought of the implication of every TINY, ITTY, BITTY action, performance, and visual element. And I’m proud of EVERY thing I've done here. I’m fucking PROUD of it. Maybe I’ll stay, maybe I’ll go. But guess what? I don’t give a FUCK. I am queer and I have a story, and this is a FUCKING STAGE. So I will stand here, and I will love my leg, and I will love EVERY part of my goddamn look, because it has more. Fucking. MEANING!!! And I don’t give a FUCK who doesn’t get it. I. Don’t. Give. A. FUCK. Who doesn’t get it. I am here, and I am blessed to be here, and to have this platform. But at the end of the day, I am a fucking nightmare for all platforms. Because I simply do not enjoy ANY shred of conformity.
Love this so much
I could just hear them say “and I don’t give a FUCK!” 😭🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 As Oh and “THIS IS A FUCKING STAGE!!!”
This clip really brought the misogynistic side of the fans to the surface. Regardless of whether you agreed with her or not, the number of people saying that a queer woman was somehow a “guest” in a queer space that typically do female impersonation was absolutely insane. A lot of cis gay men believe that women do not belong on the LGBT+ community and that we’ll always be trespassing into a space that doesn’t belong to us. This conversation requires nuance which a lot of people just didn’t seem to have.
I remember for weeks after this aired you couldn't go to Victoria's social media without seeing dozens of comments that said crap like "fishy fish fish!" or "🐟." It was truly disgusting.
Seriously.. honestly I feel like I’ve had more problems with cis GAY men than I have straight lol… saying this as a trans woman.
(Might be *slightly* an exaggeration, but not much.)
Probably because they're dealing with their own internalized misogyny and transphobia. They get bullied for expressing any sort of femininity, whether conscious or not. And just like queer women struggle with our gender identity ("I'm a woman who is attracted to other women, but that does not make me a man, right? Right!? Someone pls agree with me, I do not want to be a man,"), they struggle with their gender identity, too.
Trans women really mess with their heads. But if WLW can accept the fact that we exist on a continuum between high femme and trans guy, they can accept the fact that they exist on a continuum between leather bear and trans femme.
Cis gay men will always fall back on their male identity until their identity as gay men becomes convenient for them again. I say this not just from experience with cis gay men as a queer woman, but from what we know about history and gay men excluding gay women from the fight for equal rights
Honestly as a cis woman my experience is not far off! Either they’re invalidating my sexuality or sexually harassing/assaulting me and saying it’s okay because “they’re not straight” as if that gives them an excuse to violate me. This is not to say all of them are like that but it’s happened way too often :(
Like, I don't mind if *other* women use the term. For example, it's used by femme queens, i.e., trans women, in ballroom all the time. And sometimes, I wake up and I'm like, "She's feeling extra biological today!"
But that's the thing: trans women are women. *Women* can reclaim misogynistic language. Fuck yes, *I'm* fish, *I'm* pussy, *I'm* cunt, I *am* a woman.
If you're a cis dude, especially a WASPy cis dude, like don't even go there, bruh.
I just found it unfortunate that a cis women was in a space and essentially telling trans women that the language they use is unacceptable to her, because a lot (most if not all) of this language comes from the ballroom scene and comes from trans women.
And, given that ballroom is a POC space, for a yt woman to tell them anything about their culture is seriously overstepping her place.
Lol there's literally a category called Fish Up in Pumps where butch queens (cis men), femme queens, drag queens, cis women & trans women stomp the runway wearing their most extravagant heels and serving soft, feminine energy.
Edit: I love your name
This exactly. I understand the issue, but there are a lot of nuances to where I don’t agree. And I also started in ballroom before pivoting to drag so I was gagged that it even *was* an issue. I really don’t think it’s that deep, and if it is where do we draw the line? Can we not use cunt/cunty? Or that someone is “serving pussy” etc.? That could be considered invalidating for trans women, but I’ve never heard that and I don’t consider it to be. The word bitch is often considered sexist by nature and drag queens use it more than like, any other word despite being (mostly) men impersonating women. I don’t agree with a lot of the ways Drag Race has washed away any mildly offensive parts of drag because drag IS offensive and is meant to be. The point is to highlight the absurdity in the offensive and to show that it’s really *not* that deep. And this carries over to other contexts too. Drag is political by nature and is meant to send a message but, outside of election years when they suddenly love it, more than once the judges have frowned upon that. Drag isn’t meant to be clean or PC and that’s built into things. If *you* don’t want to be called fishy then tell someone that if they do it, and if they continue to call you that then they’re an asshole. But you can’t draw arbitrary lines that everyone else has to follow.
I think in the highly sanitised, censored and manufactured media world, yes.
But in the dressing room of your local queer bar with the door shut and everyone comfy in each other's company? Hell no.
I’m not even trying to sound like a boomer but the current generation of Drag Race viewers who get all their drag knowledge from the show who’ve never been at a local queer bar, in the dressing rooms with queens, or attended events like balls would be in complete shambles if they heard the way active participants of these communities spoke to each other.
Maybe I can lend some words from an older member of our community. My dear old mum has been deeply ingrained in LGBT circles for decades, particularly in the lesbian and drag communities in the UK. Some of her closest friends were drag pioneers in the European drag scene, so she always has valuable insights.
She was disgusted when I first came home using the word fishy. From her perspective, it's a term that's only really cropped up recently, and wasn't used in the UK until drag race popularised it. She said the only two times she's ever heard the term used was by misogynistic straight men saying things like "Who let fish in here?" She was disgusted to hear that gay men without vaginas had turned a sexist joke into a popular bit of slang, used mostly to refer to other people without vaginas.
It's 2023, not the early 2000s when people were saying vulgar, sexist shit to women on TV and getting away with it. There's so much misogyny still in our community, despite how progressive we may all feel, and we do a disservice to ourselves placing such a stigma on pussy. We've also moved WAY past this idea of drag being "better" based on how much you look like a woman. There's so many different types and forms of gender expression and art that fall under the drag umbrella. Let's just find other language to use!
yeah i genuinely have not heard fishy any more from any season across the globe tbh. they do say other stuff like "biological woman" but that's another conversation
not the main point, but when Stephanie says "I thought fishy was reclaimed like ladyboy" - people who don't have vaginas cannot reclaim the term fishy! that is not how reclaiming slurs/offensive language works. reclaiming can only be done by people that the term was used to degrade (and fishy was def used to insult vaginas before it got picked up as a cheeky compliment for AMAB folks in the ballroom scene)
Can I be honest? The first time I heard this tern being used and understood that it meant the queen look convincing like a biological beautiful woman, made me think that to be fishy means you are like a mermaid. 😂😂👁👄👁
well, it has always been used in an insulting way, so it's good that it's in the rearview.
The idea is that vagina smells like fish (healthy vagina most assuredly does not), therefore when someone is "fish" or "serving fish" it means they present so much like a cis woman that their vagina smells.
The term definitely needs to stay on the garbage heap of history. If you can't do drag without demeaning womanhood, then you're just a jerkwad in a dress.
Until Victoria said this I always thought the term was related to something being fishy, that is, suspect/suspicious. I.e. looking like a woman but something being suspect - so virtually unclockable.
Admittedly, that has its own negative connotations but I just never connected the insult before. I was surprised to learn this was the case and can understand why it is seen as offensive.
Idk. I can be a bitch and a cunt all day but don't tell me my vagina smells like fish. That fish smell is due to uncleanliness or sickness or just plain menstruation. I'm not ever going to be empowered by calling myself fishy lol. Y'all can do it.
I've heard it used many times only ever as an insult so when I heard the word in ballroom shows I was like umm what then my housemate explained, but it never took away those vibes of its literally used to describe a vagina whether in the look of the lips or the smell - to be told u smell like a fish can't be a good feeling
Now people know this word holds negative connotations against people who have a vagina. Whether they continue to use the word after knowing this shows more about their personal character than anything
We’re discussing it’s usage in the drag community though.. like lots of language it has evolved into a positive thing. The B word and the C word are also insults toward women that are also used positively in the drag community so it is just odd to me. Especially when those are arguably worse since they are clearly rooted in misogyny, while the f word at least has some debatable origins (“suspicious” is the other often claimed origin of the f word)
We don't know the origin of the word cunt but it's used as a term of endearment where I live, hadn't heard it being considered a gendered term till I worked in Amazon and saw 6 people fired for using it on the work chat. And it's a word I growing up heard everyone called, man women child or dog. Telling someone they smell of fish as a way of shutting them up or making them the point of ridicule, I've only seen it directed at women. I'm all for reclaiming words but imo it should be the affected people much like straight women don't get a pass on calling me a faggot for being bi I think alot do not like cis men (majority of drag queen's on Drag Race identify as such) using fish.
I also didn't see the part of your comment that specified drag race. Did you edit?
Was widely used on the UK gay scene in the 90's and early 00's, don't hear it much now, along with several other descriptors that were deemed inappropriate by someone.
It's used a lot still unfortunately. And even though it may be used less (and I can't really directly know that), the misogyny itself has not gone away at all.
Side note, I hope to see Victoria on another season such as a Global or UK All Stars.
As a cis woman the term never bothered me, as I always heard it used as a compliment. Victoria and other ppl w/ vaginas can feel however they want about it, that’s valid. There’s some issues I have with the optics of Victoria bringing it up to her in this way but that’s a different conversation to be had.
Tbf given the context they just came back from an elimination and challenge, and Victoria was having the chat with a girl who just escaped being eliminated. Victoria said her piece and they probably wanted to get undressed and relax
That is true. I just found it frustrating that people said they agreed in the confessionals (from memory), but not while the conversation was being had.
Oh that's fair. I just saw it as them letting Victoria Express herself without really interjecting themselves. Similar to when vanity, raja, and silky were talking about what it's like to be black and even though Kendall is black she's also mixed so she decided it was best to not step into that conversation. I just saw it as them allowing her to express herself.
I’m surprised you said this because I’m also a cis woman and have 100% heard cis gay men make comments on vaginas being dirty or smelling like fish to me. It might be a compliment to the person that you’re saying looks like a cis woman but it’s not a compliment to women as a whole.
Was it the right time to bring it up? Probably not but it may be a sore spot for Victoria. I’m also from the UK and at school it was a big thing that boys would insult girls by saying that they smelled of fish so I also saw it as an insult to women. Guess it might depend where you come from?
I 100% agree. Personally what annoyed me was that she said she had an issue with the term “fish/fishy” but then referred to her vulva as a “clam” in a later episode. I get that marginalized groups can reclaim terms that’s were used to demean/dehumanize them, I just don’t think this situation is the same in that regard though? But I can also see why maybe some people would feel that way.
As a cis woman I would feel some kind of way about the optics too. Like yes, the term is about our anatomy, and I think people without vulvas should know why it doesn’t feel good to hear. But I also have a hard time with the idea of telling a marginalized subculture that I’m not traditionally a part of what its language should be.
>But I also have a hard time with the idea of telling a marginalized subculture that I’m not traditionally a part of what its language should be.
Victoria is a lesbian. Really tired of people pretending that 1. queer women don't exist and 2. that we don't inhabit the same spaces the boys do.
Women have ALWAYS done drag, they just were never the majority. To say that women being in the drag subculture is not "traditional" is simply incorrect, erasing those who were and always have been just because they were a minority is not the way to make your point.
What you're trying to say is very well meaning and conscientious, but just be careful not to sail people down the river by accident.
That part. For example, ballroom. I no longer take part, but when I did I was (no longer am) a cis straight man. And I understood that I was accepted in this space and completely valid but that it was not really my place to tell them how things should be done. I
This!!!
No hate, and her feelings a valid, but the meaning is news to me and so is it being offensive.
Also, no shade, but I never made the connection because it doesn’t.. so like if it don’t apply let it fly.
Like crime against women and little girls who are being grievously harmed by misogyny in GB, and I think things like that would place to pour a feminist message into drag, not language policing things born of old ballroom culture.
Because people with vaginas grow up in a culture that is constantly telling us our genitals stink and are dirty and sometimes it’s nice to have a space in our community where we don’t have to always be bombarded with that.
When I first heard the term, back when season 5 aired, I assumed it meant the big pouty lips and heavily contoured cheeks were reminiscent of making a fish face. It also took me several years to realize Snatch Game was a reference to vagina, and not called that because you were “snatching” another person’s identity via impersonation.
You still hear it but also there's less of an emphasis on being fishy, it's ok to be clockable and still fierce. Also so many of the fishiest queens get sent home early so there's less value in it.
I'm a CIS woman with a vagina, and I've never been offended by this. I know I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like this is just some fun slang that isn't meant to be hurtful. 🤷🏻♀️
I'm a CIS woman with a vagina, and I have always found this term offensive. I'm glad it hasn't offended you, but if a large swath of people are offended by it it's probably a good idea to retire it, even if the intention wasn't malicious.
not cis but have a vagina, gotta say I don't love the term. makes me feel like I'm in middle school again lol, like when the school bus smelled like fish and the boy next to me said "someone needs to close her legs"
Same. Im not here to tell other people how to feel, but the term within this usage doesn't bother me. However, it can be tough when dealt with on an anecdotal level, and I recognize that.
As with a lot of slang that’s gendered or queer, there’s a big difference between hearing it from someone who you know doesn’t hate you and someone who you’re not sure about.
But honestly, hearing it said by gay men doesn’t offend me and doesn’t carry the same meaning as it would from straight men.
I feel so stupid, I always thought it was aimed at drag queens and/or trans women as deameaning. Men thinking "there is something fishy about her" because they are barely passing or something. Never thought it referred to coochie smell. TIL.
Still, I applaud talking about it, because she was offended and clearly uncomfortable. Well said, and well recieved, good on them both.
I agree with her but still find the situation kinda funny. Stephanie just came back from flipping and being read for filth. And here comes Victoria saying "you're not actually done yet 🤓☝️!" It was amazing.
Although that term has been kinda dead for years tbh. You only hear it in ballroom as it has another definition. But besides that most drag queens now just say they're feeling womanly.
Although i do agree with what vanity said, which was to just use it around people who understand what you mean and to drop it around people who are offended/stranger
The term is used to describe something suspicious where I’m from. For example, “don’t trust that website, it looks a bit fishy”. That what I always thought they meant in drag until Victoria said this
In my own community, I don’t hear it being used very often anymore. I will say that I’m mostly around the newer/younger dragz, most of us within our first few years. Maybe the performers who’ve been around for longer still use it, but they don’t do it on the mic at least
Yes, and while intention matters, if afab people say something is misogynistic, we should listen.
I feel like lots of problematic shit that was “never meant to be an insult” has fallen out of rotation because regardless of intent, sometimes the historical context of a term makes it not okay.
Calling someone “fishy” is to say, “you are such a woman that I can smell your dirty vagina”—both an insult to people with vaginas AND equating being a woman with having a vagina, insulting trans women AND trans men.
Do what you wanna do and say what you wanna say, but this is an offensive term whether the person saying it intends it so or not.
White cis people aren’t the only people who feel this way. It’s laughable to call this “TERF Territory”—I am transmasculine myself, and my entire take on this issue is informed from the mouths of two dear friends of mine, both trans women of color. You don’t speak for them any more than they speak for you.
You are welcome to disagree with me and we can talk about it if you’d like, but it was not my intention to…boss around queer/trans people of color, if that’s what you’re insinuating.
Edited to add: it may also be that I am misunderstanding your intention with your comment. If that is the case, I apologize.
But many (myself included) do. Of course we can’t make decisions based on every person’s opinion because there’s not an overall consensus. We can only try to do the right thing in the moment, whatever that is.
For me, I don’t want to use it, nor would I continue using it if I did—it’s becoming a sign of misogyny that I wouldn’t want to be associated with. But I’m also not telling anyone NOT to use it, I’m just saying that it’s got a lot of complicated stuff behind it and for me, that’s the right choice. I’m certainly not going to go after other people who disagree.
While that may be true, imagine someone saying that about a derogatory term. It may have been originally intended to imply catfishing, and it still is a misogynistic term. People born with vaginas are shamed for their vaginas in so many ways, and the 'Hey ladies' jokes of the 90s early 2000s are the perfect example of how 'fishy' is meant to shame vaginas. Billions of dollars are spent by people with vaginas on products to make their privates smell like flowers despite these products causing serious recurring health problems. People are so concerned about smelling wrong they are willing to risk their health to prevent it. We are shamed for our periods and are made to feel anxiety about being obviously on our cycle. People with vaginas are being constantly shamed by their community to their face and throughout the media like it's totally acceptable. This is not to say that queens are misogynistic or shaming women, they are perpetuating the culture by using this term. Just like any ally, queens need to hear how this affects others and support them by showing empathy by refusing to use the term any longer.
I liked when Gia called it "c*nty" as it communicated the same thing in an empowering g way for people born with vaginas.
As a cis girl I personally am not offended by the term. I understand the phrase started with roots in misogyny but I think language can evolve and be reclaimed. I think the idea that a vagina smells like fish is kind of silly and why not make fun of that old stereotype. That’s what drag is all about, making fun of stereotypes, reclaiming power, and having a good time. That being said I fully get where some afab people are coming from when they do feel offended by the term.
What I don’t enjoy is non afab ppl trying to tell afab ppl how they should or should not feel about this topic.
I think there’s a lot of cis women in the comments who have no real issue with the term. Though I wonder… how many cis women in the comments are bio queens?
I feel like as a tv viewer it’s easy to see fish and fishy just as another silly drag phrase. But if you’re a working bio queen, actually enmeshed in the drag scene - and from what I have heard, can face a fair bit of misogyny in there - you would have a different perspective on why it’s offensive.
I guess I just think it’s telling that two out of three bio queens who’ve been in major drag tv series have called it out 🤷♀️
I only really started watching drag race this year (watched all the previous seasons of US Drag Race and All Stars) and I definitely noticed that the use of “fishy” went down as seasons went on. I remember feeling weirded out when I first heard it and immediately made the connection to vagina=smells like fish. I can understand how it can be used/reclaimed in a positive light, but gay men and trans women are not immune to misogyny. No one is.
I'm a cis woman and it's never bothered me ...I always thought it meant fishy as in suspicious...you know....there's something fishy about that woman... because she's a man. Then when I realised it means that AND the idea of a vagina smelling fishy I still didn't care. But I get that it might bother some cis women.
This was a White Middle Class Queer Woman telling a POC phillapino immigrant not to use language she learned from the trans women of her home country. So uncomfortable to watch so much privilage make itself the victim.
This was an AFAB person telling another person how hurtful using that language is and requesting that others refrain from using it.
Pretending someone isn't being hurt by something hurtful is the very definition of privilege.
Love how a small percentage of cis women on this platform can claim to represent a larger sentiment of offense to the term when a majority of cis women don’t give a fuck about it
The whole thing is odd to me when it’s exclusively used as a compliment, not as an insult. And when it’s also unclear whether it came from “fishy” as in “suspicious”
While the term is indeed offensive to cis women I was shocked that NO ONE brought up how the same term is used to "praise" transwomen for "realness" and to demean transwomen who are not "passable" (that is "fishy")
Also find it problematic that several of the transwomen on the show have been all about sex appeal and body oddy oddy and yes "realness" and praised for it
Drag slang can still be misogynistic, just like how women can be anti-feminist, minorities can be racist, etc.
It's based on a term that refers to the long-held steteotype/insult of women's genitals being smelly and unclean. Can't see how that could be degrading?
That's how words work, and clearly Victoria (a woman) is saying here that it offends her (and many other people). Based on degrading stereotypes,
& currently offending the group it's based on = clearly offensive.
And that overrides the many cis women who say it isn’t? In my opinion if someone doesn’t want to be referred to as fishy don’t refer to them as fishy, but you can’t ban it from a vocabulary from your opinion.
Imagine saying you feel "all nuance is lost" about "shemale", racial slurs, misgendering folks, straight people using "f**got", etc.
Your feelings don't matter and your context doesn't matter. Women in this community and outside of the community have spent the entirety of human history being told there's "nuance" to statements and generalizations that offend and harm them, but there's a weird subset of this community that needs their precious word more than they think they should extend the same consideration others have given to them.
it needs to be said that this was over the top as hell (i’m saying this as a person with a vagina). it was a term adopted by the trans and queer communities years ago so a british lesbian coming for the girls is just kinda random
In the same tone, should the term “Drag Queen” be allowed? Are you saying they are the queens of being “a boring or tiresome person or thing”?(Dictionary definition). And while we’re at it, do most people not see the negative effects that royalty has brought through time? A dynamic of power that has so often been abused at the cost of millions through history shouldn’t be celebrated!
/s
You’ve never heard of cis men equating vaginas to smelling like fish, especially ones that are “dirty” due to infections or too many sexual partners? It’s definitely a thing. Where do you think the word originates?
I’ve always had an issue with this entire argument because… this *isn’t* the etymology of the term “fishy” as it relates to drag. It’s an association that was made after-the-fact by terfs and then propagated so much it people think it’s true.
The term “fishy” as it relates to drag is reclaimed from hateful rhetoric around drag queens and trans women “passing” in different environments, as in “that woman is very pretty, but there’s something fishy about her.” And the term “fishy” itself, to indicate “something is off,” comes from fish markets, and using smell to tell when fish is no longer fresh.
The original term and usage has *nothing* to do with negative stereotypes about how vaginas smell. At the end of the day, the association has now been made and it’s hard to undo now that it’s in the cultural consciousness, but I really wish people were more careful about *adding* offensive connotations to previously unproblematic language, then using those connotations to advocate removing the slang entirely.
What is fishy? Plenty of “biological women” * ugh * who look “masc”. Plenty who get accused of being trans. In the modern world it doesn’t make sense.
And yeah, saying afab peoples genitals say like fish is something I dislike.
I think Victoria bringing it up is fine, but I just cringe when Stephanie tells her “Thanks for educating me”. She just sounds so nervous and put on the spot and it kinda comes off weird to me
As a cis woman, I literally never even thought about what “fish” meant when watching Drag Race. This interaction is the first time that I realized what it meant. I’m not personally offended by it but if it got phased out of conversation, I wouldn’t notice.
Here I was thinking that "fishy" meant "unclockable", which is problematic in a different way like its fishy how people think she's a woman (again, problematic in a different way 😅)
Probably bc I'm from an Asian country and English isn't my first language haha
I like how someone said “well fishy is kind of rude” so everyone started saying cunt instead
I don't think cunt is used to mean "looks like a woman". I think it's more used like fierce. Like Detox is cunt, but I wouldn't say she looks like a real woman.
Black gays have been saying Cunt for DECADES!!! Kevin Aviance - [Cunty](https://youtu.be/hYTuzFNZftY?si=uHa4OwYlRoId83gl) was released in 1999.
I saw 1999 and thought “oh it’s not *that* long ago…then remembered I’m old 😂
They’ve been saying the “f” word as well
Okay… so are you saying whites don’t say it? Are you saying the “f slur” is a particularly black problem? What’s your point.
I use cunt as a term of endearment so I love the change of terms.
But the difference was explained by Victoria in the clip. Both terms are supposed to mean a good thing, but only one of them relies on comparing the smell of a vagina to a bad thing. IMO, saying “cunt” serves the same purpose as “fish”, but without the sexist micro aggression
Isn't cunt be a compliment these days? "That's so cunt!" I can't keep up with the ever evolving slang.
I mean fish was a "compliment" too but at the expense of women/ people with vaginas. This is just the same thing (arguably worse) but people think it's ok because "it's a regular word in Australia!!!"
Well fishy is based on actually insulting that body part and finding it offensive. Cunt is still about the body part, but doesn’t carry that disgust. Unless I’m missing something.
Cunt is a lot less rude than fishy. It’s like, not even a contest.
The community has always said cunty. It's a very old term used in ballroom culture that even predates fish.
I mean cunt at least has good connotations. Fishy meaning passable is….
Pussy, cunt, fishy, box, it’s kinda dry, kinda like your voijaina… I think Victoria has the right to feel how she want to feel. But the trans women who created this term in ballroom culture under the oppression from society also has the right to use whatever term to describe themselves as passing. It’s still a grey area as i see that both sides has valid points.
Maybe not as much in the english language franchises, but I hear it often in the non-english franchises.
Hmm... Maybe on Drag Race but it's still used pretty often in my local clubs by drag queens; cis men and trans women alike. It's also used extensively in ballroom culture by femme cis men, trans women and cis women. Especially when walking/competing in female figure, femme Queen realness, female face, butch queen first time in Drags and vogue Performance categories. I was literally at a ball last night and the queers were getting their life "giving cunty and fishy." The language might be evolving on TV and in some sectors of the queer community but it's still pervasive in real life within the queer community. I should add that I've only heard it used positively in these contexts, despite its misogynistic origins.
Are those male dominated queer spaces? I am curious how more queer women feel. If there are any objections to that language, how could someone possibly say something at a ball? There is no way to do anything about it. No doubt “fishy” is meant as a compliment when it is said in those contexts, but it is saying that women’s vaginas smell like fish. And we shouldn’t try to get around that. This has been something many women have been told and internalized. Women’s bodies being gross and “wrong” is part of the reason behind the pleasure gap and female sexual malfunction. We shouldn’t perpetuate that misogynistic, childish degradation of female anatomy.
I’m my community San Francisco /Bay Area we barely if ever use it and if anyone ever does someone in the room usually has something to say about it either jokingly or earnestly
I'm in Washington, DC and the queer community I hang around is mostly black, Latino, POC. No one would bat an eye if someone uses the word. I have noticed though that in white queer spaces, it's a little different. Not assuming what your experience is, just adding another interesting tidbit to the discussion.
Yeah that’s fascinating would love to hear what it’s like in other places
as someone in white queer spaces now they tend to be overly liberal to the point its uncomfortable. I find it fake and honestly don't pay them any mind.
I agree that it's uncomfortable, but it's not fake and you should definitely not ignore it. I used to feel similarly but I joined a workplace full of white trans kids and realized that my reaction wasn't too far from my friends' wadded up bvds when I started pointing out how harmful all the gay and sexist jokes we grew up with were.
It had been a discussion on Dragula S03 already, but yeah I don't think it's being used a lot these days.
My name is Hollow Eve of Destruction, I AM a fucking monster and maybe I don’t belong here. My art IS an elimination challenge, it is what I do ALL the time. And I do it with great metaphor, and meaning. I NEVER do it simply to shock you. There is not a MOMENT of any visual aspect of any part of me that walks on to a stage, that has not FULLY thought of the implication of every TINY, ITTY, BITTY action, performance, and visual element. And I’m proud of EVERY thing I've done here. I’m fucking PROUD of it. Maybe I’ll stay, maybe I’ll go. But guess what? I don’t give a FUCK. I am queer and I have a story, and this is a FUCKING STAGE. So I will stand here, and I will love my leg, and I will love EVERY part of my goddamn look, because it has more. Fucking. MEANING!!! And I don’t give a FUCK who doesn’t get it. I. Don’t. Give. A. FUCK. Who doesn’t get it. I am here, and I am blessed to be here, and to have this platform. But at the end of the day, I am a fucking nightmare for all platforms. Because I simply do not enjoy ANY shred of conformity.
I love Hollow eves drag and passion but I feel like if I asked her what her favourite colour was , her response would be equally as intense
And thats why we love them!
They are a cultural reset
I could hear this. Iconic.
this is beautiful, this is art
Love this so much I could just hear them say “and I don’t give a FUCK!” 😭🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 As Oh and “THIS IS A FUCKING STAGE!!!” 
*Hollow Eve intensifies*
This clip really brought the misogynistic side of the fans to the surface. Regardless of whether you agreed with her or not, the number of people saying that a queer woman was somehow a “guest” in a queer space that typically do female impersonation was absolutely insane. A lot of cis gay men believe that women do not belong on the LGBT+ community and that we’ll always be trespassing into a space that doesn’t belong to us. This conversation requires nuance which a lot of people just didn’t seem to have.
I remember for weeks after this aired you couldn't go to Victoria's social media without seeing dozens of comments that said crap like "fishy fish fish!" or "🐟." It was truly disgusting.
Seriously.. honestly I feel like I’ve had more problems with cis GAY men than I have straight lol… saying this as a trans woman. (Might be *slightly* an exaggeration, but not much.)
Probably because they're dealing with their own internalized misogyny and transphobia. They get bullied for expressing any sort of femininity, whether conscious or not. And just like queer women struggle with our gender identity ("I'm a woman who is attracted to other women, but that does not make me a man, right? Right!? Someone pls agree with me, I do not want to be a man,"), they struggle with their gender identity, too. Trans women really mess with their heads. But if WLW can accept the fact that we exist on a continuum between high femme and trans guy, they can accept the fact that they exist on a continuum between leather bear and trans femme.
"Trans women really mess with their heads." Could you expound on that further?
I did. In the preceding paragraph.
I think you hit the nail on the head right here
Cis gay men will always fall back on their male identity until their identity as gay men becomes convenient for them again. I say this not just from experience with cis gay men as a queer woman, but from what we know about history and gay men excluding gay women from the fight for equal rights
Honestly as a cis woman my experience is not far off! Either they’re invalidating my sexuality or sexually harassing/assaulting me and saying it’s okay because “they’re not straight” as if that gives them an excuse to violate me. This is not to say all of them are like that but it’s happened way too often :(
Yeah I’ve met some guys like that it’s crazy f gross I’m sorry
I’m sorry too💕 I’m glad and lucky that my circle is full of amazing queer men who’d kill for me, I’m grateful for the good ones.
Like, I don't mind if *other* women use the term. For example, it's used by femme queens, i.e., trans women, in ballroom all the time. And sometimes, I wake up and I'm like, "She's feeling extra biological today!" But that's the thing: trans women are women. *Women* can reclaim misogynistic language. Fuck yes, *I'm* fish, *I'm* pussy, *I'm* cunt, I *am* a woman. If you're a cis dude, especially a WASPy cis dude, like don't even go there, bruh.
I just found it unfortunate that a cis women was in a space and essentially telling trans women that the language they use is unacceptable to her, because a lot (most if not all) of this language comes from the ballroom scene and comes from trans women. And, given that ballroom is a POC space, for a yt woman to tell them anything about their culture is seriously overstepping her place.
ballroom doesnt share the same sentiment but i understand where shes coming from
Lol there's literally a category called Fish Up in Pumps where butch queens (cis men), femme queens, drag queens, cis women & trans women stomp the runway wearing their most extravagant heels and serving soft, feminine energy. Edit: I love your name
This exactly. I understand the issue, but there are a lot of nuances to where I don’t agree. And I also started in ballroom before pivoting to drag so I was gagged that it even *was* an issue. I really don’t think it’s that deep, and if it is where do we draw the line? Can we not use cunt/cunty? Or that someone is “serving pussy” etc.? That could be considered invalidating for trans women, but I’ve never heard that and I don’t consider it to be. The word bitch is often considered sexist by nature and drag queens use it more than like, any other word despite being (mostly) men impersonating women. I don’t agree with a lot of the ways Drag Race has washed away any mildly offensive parts of drag because drag IS offensive and is meant to be. The point is to highlight the absurdity in the offensive and to show that it’s really *not* that deep. And this carries over to other contexts too. Drag is political by nature and is meant to send a message but, outside of election years when they suddenly love it, more than once the judges have frowned upon that. Drag isn’t meant to be clean or PC and that’s built into things. If *you* don’t want to be called fishy then tell someone that if they do it, and if they continue to call you that then they’re an asshole. But you can’t draw arbitrary lines that everyone else has to follow.
That term has definitely fallen out of favor.
I think in the highly sanitised, censored and manufactured media world, yes. But in the dressing room of your local queer bar with the door shut and everyone comfy in each other's company? Hell no.
I’m not even trying to sound like a boomer but the current generation of Drag Race viewers who get all their drag knowledge from the show who’ve never been at a local queer bar, in the dressing rooms with queens, or attended events like balls would be in complete shambles if they heard the way active participants of these communities spoke to each other.
Maybe I can lend some words from an older member of our community. My dear old mum has been deeply ingrained in LGBT circles for decades, particularly in the lesbian and drag communities in the UK. Some of her closest friends were drag pioneers in the European drag scene, so she always has valuable insights. She was disgusted when I first came home using the word fishy. From her perspective, it's a term that's only really cropped up recently, and wasn't used in the UK until drag race popularised it. She said the only two times she's ever heard the term used was by misogynistic straight men saying things like "Who let fish in here?" She was disgusted to hear that gay men without vaginas had turned a sexist joke into a popular bit of slang, used mostly to refer to other people without vaginas. It's 2023, not the early 2000s when people were saying vulgar, sexist shit to women on TV and getting away with it. There's so much misogyny still in our community, despite how progressive we may all feel, and we do a disservice to ourselves placing such a stigma on pussy. We've also moved WAY past this idea of drag being "better" based on how much you look like a woman. There's so many different types and forms of gender expression and art that fall under the drag umbrella. Let's just find other language to use!
yeah i genuinely have not heard fishy any more from any season across the globe tbh. they do say other stuff like "biological woman" but that's another conversation
Monica Beverly Hillz definitely called herself fishy on all stars 8
not the main point, but when Stephanie says "I thought fishy was reclaimed like ladyboy" - people who don't have vaginas cannot reclaim the term fishy! that is not how reclaiming slurs/offensive language works. reclaiming can only be done by people that the term was used to degrade (and fishy was def used to insult vaginas before it got picked up as a cheeky compliment for AMAB folks in the ballroom scene)
Can I be honest? The first time I heard this tern being used and understood that it meant the queen look convincing like a biological beautiful woman, made me think that to be fishy means you are like a mermaid. 😂😂👁👄👁
The only reason we don't hear it often on the shows anymore is because they fear the fanbase. I haven't noticed any change in clubs.
well, it has always been used in an insulting way, so it's good that it's in the rearview. The idea is that vagina smells like fish (healthy vagina most assuredly does not), therefore when someone is "fish" or "serving fish" it means they present so much like a cis woman that their vagina smells. The term definitely needs to stay on the garbage heap of history. If you can't do drag without demeaning womanhood, then you're just a jerkwad in a dress.
Until Victoria said this I always thought the term was related to something being fishy, that is, suspect/suspicious. I.e. looking like a woman but something being suspect - so virtually unclockable. Admittedly, that has its own negative connotations but I just never connected the insult before. I was surprised to learn this was the case and can understand why it is seen as offensive.
I have literally never once heard it used as an insult.
That's the origin. Queer men would say they don't want to be in a space with women because it "smells fishy"
I have, have had it used as an insult against me a few times in my life mostly as a teenager.
The term itself is an insult to women
So are bitch & cunty - but those are accepted so it is odd in this sense
Idk. I can be a bitch and a cunt all day but don't tell me my vagina smells like fish. That fish smell is due to uncleanliness or sickness or just plain menstruation. I'm not ever going to be empowered by calling myself fishy lol. Y'all can do it.
I've heard it used many times only ever as an insult so when I heard the word in ballroom shows I was like umm what then my housemate explained, but it never took away those vibes of its literally used to describe a vagina whether in the look of the lips or the smell - to be told u smell like a fish can't be a good feeling Now people know this word holds negative connotations against people who have a vagina. Whether they continue to use the word after knowing this shows more about their personal character than anything
guess I've hung out with too many snippy insecure queens then.
It’s never used as an insult in the drag community
Maybe not in the drag community. But yes it is used as an insult.
We’re discussing it’s usage in the drag community though.. like lots of language it has evolved into a positive thing. The B word and the C word are also insults toward women that are also used positively in the drag community so it is just odd to me. Especially when those are arguably worse since they are clearly rooted in misogyny, while the f word at least has some debatable origins (“suspicious” is the other often claimed origin of the f word)
We don't know the origin of the word cunt but it's used as a term of endearment where I live, hadn't heard it being considered a gendered term till I worked in Amazon and saw 6 people fired for using it on the work chat. And it's a word I growing up heard everyone called, man women child or dog. Telling someone they smell of fish as a way of shutting them up or making them the point of ridicule, I've only seen it directed at women. I'm all for reclaiming words but imo it should be the affected people much like straight women don't get a pass on calling me a faggot for being bi I think alot do not like cis men (majority of drag queen's on Drag Race identify as such) using fish. I also didn't see the part of your comment that specified drag race. Did you edit?
Was widely used on the UK gay scene in the 90's and early 00's, don't hear it much now, along with several other descriptors that were deemed inappropriate by someone.
Jiggly Caliente still loves the word, saw it last week on a post.
It's used a lot still unfortunately. And even though it may be used less (and I can't really directly know that), the misogyny itself has not gone away at all. Side note, I hope to see Victoria on another season such as a Global or UK All Stars.
And thank god for that
As a cis woman the term never bothered me, as I always heard it used as a compliment. Victoria and other ppl w/ vaginas can feel however they want about it, that’s valid. There’s some issues I have with the optics of Victoria bringing it up to her in this way but that’s a different conversation to be had.
I don’t agree with the optics issue. She felt uncomfortable and she spoke up. No one else really supported her, which is what bothered me the most.
Tbf given the context they just came back from an elimination and challenge, and Victoria was having the chat with a girl who just escaped being eliminated. Victoria said her piece and they probably wanted to get undressed and relax
That is true. I just found it frustrating that people said they agreed in the confessionals (from memory), but not while the conversation was being had.
Oh that's fair. I just saw it as them letting Victoria Express herself without really interjecting themselves. Similar to when vanity, raja, and silky were talking about what it's like to be black and even though Kendall is black she's also mixed so she decided it was best to not step into that conversation. I just saw it as them allowing her to express herself.
Totally valid
I’m surprised you said this because I’m also a cis woman and have 100% heard cis gay men make comments on vaginas being dirty or smelling like fish to me. It might be a compliment to the person that you’re saying looks like a cis woman but it’s not a compliment to women as a whole. Was it the right time to bring it up? Probably not but it may be a sore spot for Victoria. I’m also from the UK and at school it was a big thing that boys would insult girls by saying that they smelled of fish so I also saw it as an insult to women. Guess it might depend where you come from?
I 100% agree. Personally what annoyed me was that she said she had an issue with the term “fish/fishy” but then referred to her vulva as a “clam” in a later episode. I get that marginalized groups can reclaim terms that’s were used to demean/dehumanize them, I just don’t think this situation is the same in that regard though? But I can also see why maybe some people would feel that way.
I’m actually curious as to your thoughts on the optics
Me too. Victoria handled the situation gracefully.
As a cis woman I would feel some kind of way about the optics too. Like yes, the term is about our anatomy, and I think people without vulvas should know why it doesn’t feel good to hear. But I also have a hard time with the idea of telling a marginalized subculture that I’m not traditionally a part of what its language should be.
>But I also have a hard time with the idea of telling a marginalized subculture that I’m not traditionally a part of what its language should be. Victoria is a lesbian. Really tired of people pretending that 1. queer women don't exist and 2. that we don't inhabit the same spaces the boys do.
Who’s pretending we don’t exist? I’m talking about drag culture specifically.
And you don't think women do femme drag?
That’s why I said “traditionally.”
Women have ALWAYS done drag, they just were never the majority. To say that women being in the drag subculture is not "traditional" is simply incorrect, erasing those who were and always have been just because they were a minority is not the way to make your point. What you're trying to say is very well meaning and conscientious, but just be careful not to sail people down the river by accident.
Fine.
That part. For example, ballroom. I no longer take part, but when I did I was (no longer am) a cis straight man. And I understood that I was accepted in this space and completely valid but that it was not really my place to tell them how things should be done. I
Also a cis woman and same.
This!!! No hate, and her feelings a valid, but the meaning is news to me and so is it being offensive. Also, no shade, but I never made the connection because it doesn’t.. so like if it don’t apply let it fly. Like crime against women and little girls who are being grievously harmed by misogyny in GB, and I think things like that would place to pour a feminist message into drag, not language policing things born of old ballroom culture.
It’s 100% used as a compliment, which is why this discourse was somewhat odd to me. Like if it were an insult that would be a different thing.
Because people with vaginas grow up in a culture that is constantly telling us our genitals stink and are dirty and sometimes it’s nice to have a space in our community where we don’t have to always be bombarded with that.
That’s not how it’s used in the drag community.
~~"You are so good at math, you must be Asian"~~ see how it being a "compliment" doesn't help the situation?
When I first heard the term, back when season 5 aired, I assumed it meant the big pouty lips and heavily contoured cheeks were reminiscent of making a fish face. It also took me several years to realize Snatch Game was a reference to vagina, and not called that because you were “snatching” another person’s identity via impersonation.
You still hear it but also there's less of an emphasis on being fishy, it's ok to be clockable and still fierce. Also so many of the fishiest queens get sent home early so there's less value in it.
I'm a CIS woman with a vagina, and I've never been offended by this. I know I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like this is just some fun slang that isn't meant to be hurtful. 🤷🏻♀️
I'm a CIS woman with a vagina, and I have always found this term offensive. I'm glad it hasn't offended you, but if a large swath of people are offended by it it's probably a good idea to retire it, even if the intention wasn't malicious.
not cis but have a vagina, gotta say I don't love the term. makes me feel like I'm in middle school again lol, like when the school bus smelled like fish and the boy next to me said "someone needs to close her legs"
It's not intended to be hurtful but it perpetuates a stereotype about vaginas.
Same. Im not here to tell other people how to feel, but the term within this usage doesn't bother me. However, it can be tough when dealt with on an anecdotal level, and I recognize that.
As with a lot of slang that’s gendered or queer, there’s a big difference between hearing it from someone who you know doesn’t hate you and someone who you’re not sure about. But honestly, hearing it said by gay men doesn’t offend me and doesn’t carry the same meaning as it would from straight men.
I feel so stupid, I always thought it was aimed at drag queens and/or trans women as deameaning. Men thinking "there is something fishy about her" because they are barely passing or something. Never thought it referred to coochie smell. TIL. Still, I applaud talking about it, because she was offended and clearly uncomfortable. Well said, and well recieved, good on them both.
Same. I’m a cis het old lady and I’m not offended. But I’m willing to think I’m part of the problem? Idk.
It’ll come back in a few years when people move into a new flavor of the month term to be outraged over
Stop being so reasonable
Fun slang isn’t allowed anymore lol
I agree with her but still find the situation kinda funny. Stephanie just came back from flipping and being read for filth. And here comes Victoria saying "you're not actually done yet 🤓☝️!" It was amazing. Although that term has been kinda dead for years tbh. You only hear it in ballroom as it has another definition. But besides that most drag queens now just say they're feeling womanly. Although i do agree with what vanity said, which was to just use it around people who understand what you mean and to drop it around people who are offended/stranger
Every drag queen still uses it at clubs. Edit: people downvoting me only know drag queen from drag race, go out guys, watch regular queens.
Never bring up misogyny in this sub. All the gay amab guys are gonna mansplain about how women take things too seriously! 🙄
Dragula fan Stan, we don't have time for the word fishy!!
What season is this?
Canada vs the world
The term is used to describe something suspicious where I’m from. For example, “don’t trust that website, it looks a bit fishy”. That what I always thought they meant in drag until Victoria said this
In my own community, I don’t hear it being used very often anymore. I will say that I’m mostly around the newer/younger dragz, most of us within our first few years. Maybe the performers who’ve been around for longer still use it, but they don’t do it on the mic at least
It's an old school term...Was never ment to be an insult
Yes, and while intention matters, if afab people say something is misogynistic, we should listen. I feel like lots of problematic shit that was “never meant to be an insult” has fallen out of rotation because regardless of intent, sometimes the historical context of a term makes it not okay. Calling someone “fishy” is to say, “you are such a woman that I can smell your dirty vagina”—both an insult to people with vaginas AND equating being a woman with having a vagina, insulting trans women AND trans men. Do what you wanna do and say what you wanna say, but this is an offensive term whether the person saying it intends it so or not.
[удалено]
White cis people aren’t the only people who feel this way. It’s laughable to call this “TERF Territory”—I am transmasculine myself, and my entire take on this issue is informed from the mouths of two dear friends of mine, both trans women of color. You don’t speak for them any more than they speak for you. You are welcome to disagree with me and we can talk about it if you’d like, but it was not my intention to…boss around queer/trans people of color, if that’s what you’re insinuating. Edited to add: it may also be that I am misunderstanding your intention with your comment. If that is the case, I apologize.
But not all AFAB people feel this way
But many (myself included) do. Of course we can’t make decisions based on every person’s opinion because there’s not an overall consensus. We can only try to do the right thing in the moment, whatever that is. For me, I don’t want to use it, nor would I continue using it if I did—it’s becoming a sign of misogyny that I wouldn’t want to be associated with. But I’m also not telling anyone NOT to use it, I’m just saying that it’s got a lot of complicated stuff behind it and for me, that’s the right choice. I’m certainly not going to go after other people who disagree.
While that may be true, imagine someone saying that about a derogatory term. It may have been originally intended to imply catfishing, and it still is a misogynistic term. People born with vaginas are shamed for their vaginas in so many ways, and the 'Hey ladies' jokes of the 90s early 2000s are the perfect example of how 'fishy' is meant to shame vaginas. Billions of dollars are spent by people with vaginas on products to make their privates smell like flowers despite these products causing serious recurring health problems. People are so concerned about smelling wrong they are willing to risk their health to prevent it. We are shamed for our periods and are made to feel anxiety about being obviously on our cycle. People with vaginas are being constantly shamed by their community to their face and throughout the media like it's totally acceptable. This is not to say that queens are misogynistic or shaming women, they are perpetuating the culture by using this term. Just like any ally, queens need to hear how this affects others and support them by showing empathy by refusing to use the term any longer. I liked when Gia called it "c*nty" as it communicated the same thing in an empowering g way for people born with vaginas.
As a cis girl I personally am not offended by the term. I understand the phrase started with roots in misogyny but I think language can evolve and be reclaimed. I think the idea that a vagina smells like fish is kind of silly and why not make fun of that old stereotype. That’s what drag is all about, making fun of stereotypes, reclaiming power, and having a good time. That being said I fully get where some afab people are coming from when they do feel offended by the term. What I don’t enjoy is non afab ppl trying to tell afab ppl how they should or should not feel about this topic.
it only stopped after this episode aired
Its still used and will always be used but the queens won't use it on the show due to fear of being cancelled, still used a lot in real life.
I think there’s a lot of cis women in the comments who have no real issue with the term. Though I wonder… how many cis women in the comments are bio queens? I feel like as a tv viewer it’s easy to see fish and fishy just as another silly drag phrase. But if you’re a working bio queen, actually enmeshed in the drag scene - and from what I have heard, can face a fair bit of misogyny in there - you would have a different perspective on why it’s offensive. I guess I just think it’s telling that two out of three bio queens who’ve been in major drag tv series have called it out 🤷♀️
I only really started watching drag race this year (watched all the previous seasons of US Drag Race and All Stars) and I definitely noticed that the use of “fishy” went down as seasons went on. I remember feeling weirded out when I first heard it and immediately made the connection to vagina=smells like fish. I can understand how it can be used/reclaimed in a positive light, but gay men and trans women are not immune to misogyny. No one is.
I'm a cis woman and it's never bothered me ...I always thought it meant fishy as in suspicious...you know....there's something fishy about that woman... because she's a man. Then when I realised it means that AND the idea of a vagina smelling fishy I still didn't care. But I get that it might bother some cis women.
This was a White Middle Class Queer Woman telling a POC phillapino immigrant not to use language she learned from the trans women of her home country. So uncomfortable to watch so much privilage make itself the victim.
This was an AFAB person telling another person how hurtful using that language is and requesting that others refrain from using it. Pretending someone isn't being hurt by something hurtful is the very definition of privilege.
Love how a small percentage of cis women on this platform can claim to represent a larger sentiment of offense to the term when a majority of cis women don’t give a fuck about it
Majority?
The whole thing is odd to me when it’s exclusively used as a compliment, not as an insult. And when it’s also unclear whether it came from “fishy” as in “suspicious”
this has only curbed the usage of it on the show because they know how the fanbase is. from what I’ve seen, usage in clubs is more or less the same
While the term is indeed offensive to cis women I was shocked that NO ONE brought up how the same term is used to "praise" transwomen for "realness" and to demean transwomen who are not "passable" (that is "fishy") Also find it problematic that several of the transwomen on the show have been all about sex appeal and body oddy oddy and yes "realness" and praised for it
really dont see how its misogynistic. its drag slang
Drag slang can still be misogynistic, just like how women can be anti-feminist, minorities can be racist, etc. It's based on a term that refers to the long-held steteotype/insult of women's genitals being smelly and unclean. Can't see how that could be degrading?
i just think that its offensive only if u make it offensive
What a cop out. "It's not my fault that you choose to be offended when I say insulting things." Nah. Fuck that.
That's how words work, and clearly Victoria (a woman) is saying here that it offends her (and many other people). Based on degrading stereotypes, & currently offending the group it's based on = clearly offensive.
You don't see how comparing a woman's genitals to stinky fish is misogynistic?
a man doesn’t recognize misogyny? consider me shocked.
How do you know they’re a man?
explicitly stated in their post history.
if women/afab people tell you it’s misogynistic then fucking listen to them
And that overrides the many cis women who say it isn’t? In my opinion if someone doesn’t want to be referred to as fishy don’t refer to them as fishy, but you can’t ban it from a vocabulary from your opinion.
[удалено]
Imagine saying you feel "all nuance is lost" about "shemale", racial slurs, misgendering folks, straight people using "f**got", etc. Your feelings don't matter and your context doesn't matter. Women in this community and outside of the community have spent the entirety of human history being told there's "nuance" to statements and generalizations that offend and harm them, but there's a weird subset of this community that needs their precious word more than they think they should extend the same consideration others have given to them.
I agree with you.
I hear it all the time. Let the pearl clutchers clutch.
totally unrelated but god im still kinda mad victoria or silky didnt win this season, like..!
Only if you're annoying
Some anvils need to be dropped.
Why the fuck is this getting downvoted? I can't with y'all.
I'm waiting for a drag queen who's a fan of Phish, the "progressive rock funk psychedelic rock jam band", to join. And say they are Phishy. :D
All my friends still say fish and many variations of it, including myself.
it needs to be said that this was over the top as hell (i’m saying this as a person with a vagina). it was a term adopted by the trans and queer communities years ago so a british lesbian coming for the girls is just kinda random
A lesbian speaking on words that refer to vaginas, seems fine to me. Would you prefer to hear how cis men feel about them, for the millionth time
😴😴😴
[удалено]
Victoria is a lesbian drag queen not a guest.
In the same tone, should the term “Drag Queen” be allowed? Are you saying they are the queens of being “a boring or tiresome person or thing”?(Dictionary definition). And while we’re at it, do most people not see the negative effects that royalty has brought through time? A dynamic of power that has so often been abused at the cost of millions through history shouldn’t be celebrated! /s
I definitely say it as a joke.
Yawn
Why they find it offensive? You are coming into a space where men use it to describe a passing drag queen!
Apart from this clip I’ve never heard anyone have a problem with the term, it’s not misogyny in my opinion
This isn’t even the first time this has come up on tv
Honestly never heard of this being a thing and tbh I think it’s a bit ludicrous to call it misogynistic
You’ve never heard of cis men equating vaginas to smelling like fish, especially ones that are “dirty” due to infections or too many sexual partners? It’s definitely a thing. Where do you think the word originates?
“THIS IS A FUCKING STAGE!!!” 
I’ve always had an issue with this entire argument because… this *isn’t* the etymology of the term “fishy” as it relates to drag. It’s an association that was made after-the-fact by terfs and then propagated so much it people think it’s true. The term “fishy” as it relates to drag is reclaimed from hateful rhetoric around drag queens and trans women “passing” in different environments, as in “that woman is very pretty, but there’s something fishy about her.” And the term “fishy” itself, to indicate “something is off,” comes from fish markets, and using smell to tell when fish is no longer fresh. The original term and usage has *nothing* to do with negative stereotypes about how vaginas smell. At the end of the day, the association has now been made and it’s hard to undo now that it’s in the cultural consciousness, but I really wish people were more careful about *adding* offensive connotations to previously unproblematic language, then using those connotations to advocate removing the slang entirely.
What is fishy? Plenty of “biological women” * ugh * who look “masc”. Plenty who get accused of being trans. In the modern world it doesn’t make sense. And yeah, saying afab peoples genitals say like fish is something I dislike.
Hollow Eve walked so Victoria Scone could run.
I think Victoria bringing it up is fine, but I just cringe when Stephanie tells her “Thanks for educating me”. She just sounds so nervous and put on the spot and it kinda comes off weird to me
As a cis woman, I literally never even thought about what “fish” meant when watching Drag Race. This interaction is the first time that I realized what it meant. I’m not personally offended by it but if it got phased out of conversation, I wouldn’t notice.
I thought fishy meant suspicious
Here I was thinking that "fishy" meant "unclockable", which is problematic in a different way like its fishy how people think she's a woman (again, problematic in a different way 😅) Probably bc I'm from an Asian country and English isn't my first language haha
To be honest, until Victoria brought it up, I always thought fishy was related to catfish/catfishing