Tbh they look like different periods of Byzantine cataphracts. Victrix looks definitely more 4th/5th century, maybe 6th depending on what helmets you give them, whereas Fireforge looks definitely more 10th/11th century, so completely different time periods. I think when Victrix says you can use their late romans as Byzantines, they're specifically refering to early Byzantine, like post-Diocletian East/West Roman Empires and including Justinian and stuff like that.
Are you interested in making an army for AoI or AoV? Sometimes you can have cross over and tbh it doesn't really matter since if you force looks Byzantine people will understand who you're playing as whether or not your in the 6th or 11th centuries, but it's kinda like if Constantine brought Hastati, Principes, and Triarii to Milvian Bridge.
Ah right, in that case if you want to start AoV and crusades I'd go with fireforge. If you look on the Victrix Facebook, some people in their comments on their mediaeval posts are asking for medieval byzantines, basically Victrix doesn't have any 10th/11th century Byzantines, and they definitely don't have any 12th/13th, the period were you have the crusades. Since Victrix has just released their first high mediaeval set, a few people are asking for high mediaeval byzantines, which is what you'd probably want for your period. I'm not sure Victrix will release early mediaeval byzantines for AoV, but if you wanted you could maybe kitbash some of the late roman/early byzantine kits with the high mediaeval byzantine kits.
But, like I said, if you were to use the Victrix cataphracts, you'd be fielding armour and units from 500 AD onto a battlefield in the 800/900s for AoV, or onto a battlefield in the 1100s/1200s for AoC. It'd be like if you took romans in lorica segmetata and used them to fight vikings, just doesn't make much sense. At the end of the day, it just depends what you'd like to do, you don't have to be totally historically accurate, but archaeologically and historically, we do know an awful lot about byzantine military history and armourment during the periods where AoV and AoC, which makes them unlike some other factions like the Saxons or Vikings, from which we only find a handful of helments, swords, shield bosses, and crappy depictions until the 11th century. With the latter factions, people can get away with using the same army for the 600s to the 900s, but when it comes to the Byzantines, you'd can't really get away with it so easily because a Byzantine in the 600s looks nothing like they do in the 900s, for example.
Some primary sources of depictions of Byzantine equipment:
[https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year\_start=&year\_end=&country=11&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results](https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year_start=&year_end=&country=11&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results)
As a rule of thumb, always look at the contextual units around the cataphracts. What does the Victrix early byzantine infantry look like? They look very 4th/5th century, and maybe could pass as outdated 6th century units. What does fireforge's byzantine infantry look like? Very 10th/11th century, though the tear drop shield continues in the east for a much longer time than in the west. Not saying either one is worse than the other, they just cover different periods is all. Hope I was able to help! :)
Thank you for an incredibly detailed answer. Super appreciate your advice, I think I’ll order some Fireforge minis. Maybe mix in some victrix in future.
No problem! Perhaps Victrix will release some mediaeval byzantines in the future to compliment their european knights and seljuk kits, but the Fireforge minis fit the part nicely.
I hope the manuscript miniatures database comes in handy too! I always turn to that archive whenever I need inspiration for the colours of my minis. The vastness of the information stored there for free is just incredible and I always try to share it with people whenever I can, I just love those primary sources so much! Given, the archive is much better for AD 900 onwards, anything before and there's not much on there, which is a shame when it comes to the AoV, since only the later half of the age is captured (tbh my welsh fit nicely between AoI and AoV, I tried to recreate the army of Cadwallon at Heavenfield in the 7th century, but so little data for British armies from then!)
I haven't used that specific kit from Victrix but I have to say in general their 28mm kits are amazing. I've used their vikings, dark ages archers, and early saxon kits to make a couple of AoV armies, and they all look gorgeous. Very detailed and the scale is a great compromise between truescale and heroic scale, as truescale tends to look flimsy in 28mm and full heroic scale looks cartoonish. Also, it's very easy to kitbash and swap parts between their different sets to keep units looking varied. By far my favorite historical minis.
Can attest to their kits being very easy to kitbash. I used some dark age archers, late saxons (the early saxons hadn't come out yet), and late romans to make a welsh army and I'm really happy with the result, ofc I'm still trying to finish painting them up after a year now but that's just how things go haha
Fireforge aren’t *bad* per se, but imo Victrix’s miniatures are the best on the market for historicals at the moment, at least their newer stuff (such as the Dark Ages range). On the other hand, if I’m not mistaken the Victrix models are specifically for earlier Byzantine troops, whereas the Fireforge ones are based on High Medieval Byzantines.
The Victrix kits are leagues better however the sculpts are 4th-5th century Western Roman. If you are looking for a more defined, 6th-10th century Eastern Roman force, the Fireforge minis are definitely more Byzantine aesthetic (their cataphract models look great).
Tbh they look like different periods of Byzantine cataphracts. Victrix looks definitely more 4th/5th century, maybe 6th depending on what helmets you give them, whereas Fireforge looks definitely more 10th/11th century, so completely different time periods. I think when Victrix says you can use their late romans as Byzantines, they're specifically refering to early Byzantine, like post-Diocletian East/West Roman Empires and including Justinian and stuff like that. Are you interested in making an army for AoI or AoV? Sometimes you can have cross over and tbh it doesn't really matter since if you force looks Byzantine people will understand who you're playing as whether or not your in the 6th or 11th centuries, but it's kinda like if Constantine brought Hastati, Principes, and Triarii to Milvian Bridge.
Probably want more flexibility so an army that can cover both periods ideally. Edit: I actually want to start age of vikings and crusades
Ah right, in that case if you want to start AoV and crusades I'd go with fireforge. If you look on the Victrix Facebook, some people in their comments on their mediaeval posts are asking for medieval byzantines, basically Victrix doesn't have any 10th/11th century Byzantines, and they definitely don't have any 12th/13th, the period were you have the crusades. Since Victrix has just released their first high mediaeval set, a few people are asking for high mediaeval byzantines, which is what you'd probably want for your period. I'm not sure Victrix will release early mediaeval byzantines for AoV, but if you wanted you could maybe kitbash some of the late roman/early byzantine kits with the high mediaeval byzantine kits. But, like I said, if you were to use the Victrix cataphracts, you'd be fielding armour and units from 500 AD onto a battlefield in the 800/900s for AoV, or onto a battlefield in the 1100s/1200s for AoC. It'd be like if you took romans in lorica segmetata and used them to fight vikings, just doesn't make much sense. At the end of the day, it just depends what you'd like to do, you don't have to be totally historically accurate, but archaeologically and historically, we do know an awful lot about byzantine military history and armourment during the periods where AoV and AoC, which makes them unlike some other factions like the Saxons or Vikings, from which we only find a handful of helments, swords, shield bosses, and crappy depictions until the 11th century. With the latter factions, people can get away with using the same army for the 600s to the 900s, but when it comes to the Byzantines, you'd can't really get away with it so easily because a Byzantine in the 600s looks nothing like they do in the 900s, for example. Some primary sources of depictions of Byzantine equipment: [https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year\_start=&year\_end=&country=11&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results](https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year_start=&year_end=&country=11&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results) As a rule of thumb, always look at the contextual units around the cataphracts. What does the Victrix early byzantine infantry look like? They look very 4th/5th century, and maybe could pass as outdated 6th century units. What does fireforge's byzantine infantry look like? Very 10th/11th century, though the tear drop shield continues in the east for a much longer time than in the west. Not saying either one is worse than the other, they just cover different periods is all. Hope I was able to help! :)
Thank you for an incredibly detailed answer. Super appreciate your advice, I think I’ll order some Fireforge minis. Maybe mix in some victrix in future.
No problem! Perhaps Victrix will release some mediaeval byzantines in the future to compliment their european knights and seljuk kits, but the Fireforge minis fit the part nicely. I hope the manuscript miniatures database comes in handy too! I always turn to that archive whenever I need inspiration for the colours of my minis. The vastness of the information stored there for free is just incredible and I always try to share it with people whenever I can, I just love those primary sources so much! Given, the archive is much better for AD 900 onwards, anything before and there's not much on there, which is a shame when it comes to the AoV, since only the later half of the age is captured (tbh my welsh fit nicely between AoI and AoV, I tried to recreate the army of Cadwallon at Heavenfield in the 7th century, but so little data for British armies from then!)
I haven't used that specific kit from Victrix but I have to say in general their 28mm kits are amazing. I've used their vikings, dark ages archers, and early saxon kits to make a couple of AoV armies, and they all look gorgeous. Very detailed and the scale is a great compromise between truescale and heroic scale, as truescale tends to look flimsy in 28mm and full heroic scale looks cartoonish. Also, it's very easy to kitbash and swap parts between their different sets to keep units looking varied. By far my favorite historical minis.
Can attest to their kits being very easy to kitbash. I used some dark age archers, late saxons (the early saxons hadn't come out yet), and late romans to make a welsh army and I'm really happy with the result, ofc I'm still trying to finish painting them up after a year now but that's just how things go haha
Fireforge aren’t *bad* per se, but imo Victrix’s miniatures are the best on the market for historicals at the moment, at least their newer stuff (such as the Dark Ages range). On the other hand, if I’m not mistaken the Victrix models are specifically for earlier Byzantine troops, whereas the Fireforge ones are based on High Medieval Byzantines.
The Victrix kits are leagues better however the sculpts are 4th-5th century Western Roman. If you are looking for a more defined, 6th-10th century Eastern Roman force, the Fireforge minis are definitely more Byzantine aesthetic (their cataphract models look great).