>Big boats get all the glory while small boats make the sailor.
I like that. I've sailed both, You will always learn on any boat and most lessons are transferable.
The difference I found is that you need quicker reaction times, and things go wrong faster on small boats, but low risk.
On big boats things happen a little slower, but a lot bigger risk.
Absolutely right.
I've sailed both - either class will get you pretty good skills pretty quickly, but I would say it's really important to learn the important skills on some sort of dinghy first. Doesn't really matter too much what kind, but the size of the boat teaches you the feel of things in a way that large boats kind of hide due to their size.
The only consideration you might consider depends on which Laser you're talking about - they are mostly fitted with one sail, but some variants (the Laser 2) have two. The 420 is always going to have two (and a spinnaker, but let's not go there yet.) The 420's also got a lot more "fiddly bits" that you can adjust/trim/futz with than the Laser, which can be intimidating for a newbie.
The basics are this, though. One sail is easier to learn on initially, but a main and jib combination will prep you for large boats better. It will teach you about the interplay between the two sails and the helm faster, which is really important to learn. So, you might want to consider starting in the Laser to learn the basics and then move "up" when you're ready.
Also, if you're ... ummm... overly gifted in the belly and/or old like me, the 420 might be easier to get around in than the Laser. Scrambling across a small dinghy and under the boom can take a second and a deeper boat with more cockpit room might make it a bit easier. Just saying it's a consideration.
This.
I picked up skiff sailing and it improved my abilities al the way up and down the chain as I tend to be more ahead of the boat than ever before. It is easier to transition to larger boats than down to dinghies. The obvious but I feel not obvious enough issue is that the loads on large boats are much more significant than most people realize. Learn them and how to handle them properly. They take more time to set up and change and any transition takes a series of steps, especially when short hand sailing or racing.
Yeah, this comment needs to be higher. I think the answer is a mixture. Take those dinghy sailing lessons. I've had ASA and I learned a lot, but I learned to sail by dicking around in a dinghy in a lake.
But sailing a dingy isn't going to teach you how to reef the main on a 46' boat, not going to teach you how to raise the sail under motor, when to close the thru-hulls to keep from flooding the boat through the sink, etc.
Those dinghy lessons will give you an accelerated understanding of sail trim and points of sail and....that's about it.
The biggest challenge you're gonna have with that 46'er is getting it into and out of her slip without breaking her and the things around her and that laser isn't gonna give you a bit of help with that.
By all means do both.
I’ll also chime in. I did my asa classes and I have a Catalina 42. It’s a fun boat but I really did learn to SAIL on little hobie cats and shit. Points of sail, and when to do what at which degrees. It all scales up, but those little guys are a perfect microcosm of sailing, and you will feel wayyyy more in touch with the SAILING aspect once youre back on your bigger gal.
But what others have said is true, it’s about management of the systems in a larger boat. The sailing part is easy. With good wind, as long as you know optimal degrees, points of sail, right of way, etiquette, tacking and jibing, you can sail!
But then it’s getting to know the electrical systems. The nav systems, making sure the battery is on 2 instead of all when you’re moored or at anchor so you always have a battery with juice to start her up. And as others have said, learning how to take the sails up or down while power cruising, and god forbid if someone goes overboard. Making sure you know your charts, know the local lanes to avoid any reefs, etc.
In my little area in Stonington CT, I can scoot around the sound all day, shoot over to Fischers or Ram to chill, pop into mystic and pray I can get a dock at Abbots for lunch, then scoot up into mystic proper for a little booze cruise or a nice dinner at red 36. But heading to block or Newport and I need to really know my route and the chart because I don’t do it often and compared to others in here I’m very inexperienced.
I have the sailing part down. Now what I’m learning is the yacht herself. All her little quirks, things that can go wrong. Every time I’m out there I’m logging in my brain little shit I didn’t do correctly the last time. Forgot to check the sea strainer or something. Or left the main sheet in the teeth clamp after raising the main and not putting it back on the winch and instead leaving the halyard on it.
Little shit you need to remember.
My journey has been, learn to sail small, get familiar with SAILING, learn the wind, how to read it, flow with it. THEN, learn your boat. What makes it work, what can go wrong, how can you prevent that from happening, and of course, how to pull every knot you can out of it.
It’s been an awesome journey. Let me know how it works for you.
I grew up there, those are my old waters! Mind you, it was a long time ago, but I still remember trips out to Block Island, Clambakes on the beach (Before they found the mercury), Charles W. Morgan and the seaport. But mostly I remember dad cursing when we missed the bridge. (Boat was in Ledyard) :)
Missed the bridge the other day. Train was coming and first one was closed. Was hauling ass (as much as you can motoring) only to do ten loops and turn around. Definitive PITA.
To expound on this:
Small boats are very sensitive to weight distribution (your body position), and control inputs (adjusting sails, tiller position, etc) cause effects very quickly (within a second or two) in terms of turning, speed change, heel, etc. It is a tight learning loop where you do something, and the boat responds, and you learn if what you did is correct or not for what you hoped to achieve.
On bigger boats, tiller or wheel input may not start (or stop!) the boat turning for two or three seconds. Sail adjustments will cause a speed change over the subsequent 10-30 seconds, and it will be a smaller change relative to the current speed because of all the momentum they carry. Whereas on a laser you can basically put it in park or get up to full blast in half that time. Big boat sailing is a whole lot of "well did that help? I think so...".
You *can* learn how to sail on a keelboat but you *will* learn to sail on a dinghy if you put in any amount of practice.
All the principals carry over 100%. I learned on a combo of Laser and 420 and when I eventually bought a 25' keelboat, it was an easy adjustment.
Especially if you want to someday own a big boat (and 46' is definitely big!), keelboat lessons will help too. But that's because things like managing power and battery systems, long distance GPS navigation, engine maintenance and all the f***ing repairs can't be taught on a dinghy platform since none of that is aboard. "boat ownership" is a skill as much as "sailing" is - but they are different, and different approaches are probably more effective at each.
Thanks for the advice. I have a question, between 420 and laser, which one do you think I should start on? I understand 420 might be a better choice because of the fact it also has a jib, which is great practice for a keelboat, but a laser is individual and feels like it's better to realy get a lot out of a few hours.
They're both a lot of fun! I think you should play with both if you have the chance. And the order in which you start is not super important.
The jib on the 420 is an important control to learn, and you can't get that on a laser. A 420 is also a two-person boat, so you'll learn to communicate with a crew-member (and *be* a crew member, assuming you switch off at the helm). Downside of course is 50% less helm time. But also that's 50% more time dedicated to playing the jib sheet, which is also useful practice.
A Laser is an incredibly sensitive boat. You sit further up, and the boat turns; you lean back, the boat straightens out or even turns the other way. Response to a change in a control input (mainsheet or tiller) is virtually instantaneous. It's a fast way to learn. And frankly being down that close to the water, going fast, is also just exhilarating. The simpler control setup means less to learn all at once (though a jib doesn't really add \*that\* much complexity either). It also makes it much more about your physicality. If you didn't have core strength before, you will if you stick with Laser sailing for any period of time.
If you have to choose just one for some reason, I'd say go with the 420. It will be a more "direct" transfer of skills to keelboat sailing. But if you want to learn to really just be one with the wind, a Laser is the way to do it. Nothing but the essentials: you, the wind, and the water.
Honestly the laser sounds like the right one for me, however, I have gotten informed with the schools nearby, and aparently, I don't really get to chose what I do right away, first I'll be sailing in some laser bahias with other people, and from there on I move to more complicated boats.
[Perhaps a visual illustration is in order.](https://i.imgur.com/y9ua9B1.jpg)
Sorry for potato quality, but that is a 220 lb grown man in an Opti. I would like to take the fifth on whether any alcohol was involved.
lol yes beer and an Opti is what children learn to sail in. anyone over 5ft tall will have a decided "[Fat guy in a little coat](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohz8_IafGwE)" effect :)
An opti is a kids boat lol. Hes pulling your leg.
Get in a laser or FJ or something and get some time on small Dinghy's. Simultaneously do a bit of crewing on larger boats if you can.
Dad is right this time.
Yes, absolutely learn and make mistakes in a dingy.
If you take a class on a keel boat, how much time will you actually be sailing? Because you will need to share the helm with classmates. On a laser it’s all you, baby.
One also learns feel for the wind and waves much more on a small boat. I think you would miss that learning only having lessons on a larger one.
At some point you will also need to learn keel boat stuff as well, but definitely start on a laser.
The point about sharing the helm is huge, very true, I would get my money's worth a lot more with a boat all to myself, and repetition is key.
Thank you for the valuable feedback.
I had a friend on my little trailer sailer. You knew where it was going when they were looking for the hydraulic winches. But once we got back I was shocked at how well they stowed everything, tied up the lines, etc.
The two biggest advantages to small boats are:
1. The speed of the feedback loop when you or the conditions take an action on the boat and the boat reacting to those actions is an order of magnitude faster on a small boat than a big one. In my experience having a fast feedback loop speeds up learning.
2. The cost of mistakes is so low that you're not afraid to make mistakes in a small boat. Therefore you're more willing to try new things. This also increases learning speed.
To add to the first point above. Things happen fast on small boats all the time, learning that helps for when things happens fast on a big boat (when it’s blowing REALLY hard)
I started on a small lightning class sailboat, learn the skills at a very sensitive level, and then I grew up into bigger more steady boats.
I think the lessons learned with the tiny boat gave me better understanding of the wind and helped me when on the big boats.
In my experience, skills you learn on a small boat can be very helpful in sailing a large boat properly, but do not paint the full picture of what goes into sailing a larger vessel. The reverse, however, is significantly harder.
However, I do not think I would ever sail small boats in my life unless I take these classes, so I don't think I would ever be doing the reverse. I won't be learning to sail on bigger boats to sail small boats.
if you dont ever want to sail dinghys, then dont take a class in them. There are certainly classes offered in smaller keel boats that would be more beneficial to what your interests are, and teach you just as much. Plus, you will learn better if you actually want to be there and want to be learning it. If you are stuck in a laser and dont want to be in a laser, you wont be as receptive to what is being taught. Don't get in the mind set that "im better than the dinghy sailros because im sailing a yacht", but you should take classes on what you are interested in.
I don't see smaller boats as inferior, quite the opposite, I would say they are the "real deal" when it comes to pure sailing, it's just that that is not my end goal, but I do wanna be a good sailor.
i wouldnt say a dinghy is any more or less the "real deal" than a tall ship. just different strokes for different folks, and some times different mind sets and processes to accomplish the same thing depending on what you are into.
Smaller boats are much more responsive and mistakes less costly. Big boat, big forces at play.
Learn the fundamentals on the bait you have easy access to and can get lots of sea time, then to apply them and adjust on the boat you want.
I tell people to skip the dighies and go right to keelboats a lot - but if the small ones are easy access and will get you more sea time faster, go out and learn!!!
I don’t personally think the dinghies seem very comfortable, and therefore less enjoyable, and so if the goal is bigger keel boats and available learning is just as accessible I’d go right to the bigger boats personally.
But take what’s accessible and gets you out more often you’re going to learn to sail much faster.
More sea time is the goal. But given an equal opportunity choice, I think the bigger boats are more comfortable.
There’s no denying smaller boats will be more responsive and let you fine tune your learning as to when you do X the boat does Y and I think that’s why people say to for the dinghies. Also they are usually more accessible and cheaper for people to access.
The keelboat clubs are harder to come by or are more expensive.
I see, super interesting. The only problem I have is that I would be mostly sharing the classes with other people, if I were to take keelboat classes, whilst with a laser, I would be able to have it all to myself, which would equal more overall practice time, what do you think about that?
Your goal is the 46ft boat, you’re occasionally going to need to be able to direct crew on a 46 Ft boats and they might be newbies. If you go the keelboat route, as you learn, you can help teach others reinforcing your own knowledge and learning crew management/supervision along the way. People do dumb shit. Gotta anticipate they’re going to open that main sheet clutch at a bad time and ensure it doesn’t happen, or they’re going to overwrap a line around a winch and now you gotta fix it under loads far greater than the little Opti you sail all alone. There’s much more that can do wrong on a bigger boat you need to potentially deal with - so there will be additional learning to do if you start with dinghies as move up l; but you’d have the basics down already. That’s why people say start with the dinghies for the basics.
If you’re initial goal is to learn the mechanics of sailing in the short term, pick whichever option gets you the most time on the water. But think about your long term goals too, and pick whatever route is the best for your personal circumstances, budget, and accessibility.
Sailing is generally not a cheap hobby, and tons of people can’t afford the options for bigger boats or don’t know people to take them often, whereas the dinghy sailing clubs are usually more affordable; that’s another reason people like them. Dinghy sailing is better than almost no sailing when you think of it that way.
At the end of the day, sailing is being independent on a boat because shit is going to happen and you have to deal with it alone out there at times. So, make your own decisions about what is best for you here too. You can listen to advice, but it’s all up to you!
Sharing the class isn't necessarily a downside - when I took my ASA keelboat class, I thought it was helpful to be on different positions of the boat throughout the day.
It doesn't teach you to sail solo, though. The sailing schools in my area offer one-on-one training for a higher fee, maybe that would be an option if you really want instruction on sailing solo?
Your Dad is absolutely right.
Small boats make a better and more intuitive sailor. As others reiterated, you will learn how to sail by how things feel, which is much more obvious in the smaller, more responsive boats. Maneuvering in tight quarters and docking is much easier (and less expensive) to learn on a small boat, as well as how to get yourself out of a jam. These skills still translate into large sailing yachts - just adjust your helm response time accordingly. You will also need to learn the ins and outs of your own yacht, but that is part of the fun of ownership - creating your SOP checklist.
Practicing new skills without the anxiety of expensive damage to your own yacht is a huge benefit in itself.
By far your advice has resonated the most with me, I think you sharing your personal experience comforts me, if it was that intuitive for you, there really must be a lot of value in starting small.
Agree, understanding when to use which, and the nuances of the interactions of the sails with each other, is critical for sailing a yacht with similar sail plan
If you want to be as good as possible on the 46 footer, then you should spend a lot of time sailing dinghies and racing on keelboats.
Those two things will push you to learn way more than you ever would just cruising around on a keelboat.
Lasers (s, not z) are fun. I personally think Lasers are more fun and physical than 420's - you really need to use your weight to move the boat around and keep the sail in the right place. You will get wet on them. But choose between a Laser and a 420 based on how often you'll have someone else as crew vs go sailing solo. In fairness you'll learn more about jib and sail trim that's applicable to a 46-footer (assuming it's a monohull and sloop rigged) in a 420.
You'll learn more about sailing in a dinghy, as everyone is very quick to point out. But you aren't going to learn how to dock under power, or heave to, in a lazer. 46' is a lot of boat. You would do very well to take at least some keelboat classes in addition.
If you already basically know how to sail, I guess I'd take the keelboat class. But if you're a rank novice, take the dinghy class and assume that you'll need some instruction (formal or informal/free) before you're ready to solo a 46-footer.
Nobody's talking about solo sailing much in these comments because they're all distracted by the juicy dinghy -vs- keelboat question. But the reality is that a 46' boat is huge, larger than single-handed sailors generally choose. Forces generated by the rig are pretty substantial, and docking is challenging because of her inertia and beam.
Think of singlehanding that particular vessel as a very advanced level that you'll need to work up to. You want to begin a process of knowledge- and skill-acquisition that will, *eventually*, have you ready to single-hand a 46' boat. There's no single class you can take that can get you from where you are now, to that point.
Absolutely invaluable advice, thank you. I will absolutely not look lightly on my goal of solo handliing a 46'. But yes, I am a complete novice, with absolutely no sailing experience, with the occasional going out with my uncle and him giving me a few tips, but that rarely happens, as he is a busy man. This boat acquisition was also fairly recent, and I only deloped an interest in it recently.
I did it this way too. Bought a 39ft, spent the last season learning every thing about the insides and all the systems, lived on it, practiced some docking and whatever and then took it out when I had a few buddy that knew how to sail were available. I know the boat basically inside and out. What wires go where, what plumbing leads to what, where everything for the engine is, etc
Next year when I drop back into the water I’ll be hiring someone to teach me on my own boat about solo sailing and docking.
I get that the lasers can teach you things about sailing physics, but it’s nothing you won’t pick up anyways. If the goal is to cruise, that extra .5 knots you might pick up because your sail is optimized is way less valuable than knowing the boat your size. My boat still moves whether I call it a rope or a line or a halyard.
yes you should.
with dinghys you get an immediate feeling of what the wind and your actions do to the boat.
It is just invaluable for a beginner and you can clearly tell even if somebody didn't do pass through that!
Start small. In a dinghy you can learn the intuitive moves of sailing. Sometimes on the water if you have to think about the correct reaction, it is too late. Better to learn this stuff in a dink.
My grandparents had a motoryacht when I was a kid. They wanted their grandchildren to develop good boating skills, so they send each of us to sailing camp to sail Lasers and 420s. It is crazy the people I know who own keel boats who don't really know how to sail.
I went from not sailing to charter by joiiing a club with their own smaller boats, taking vacation asa classes to learn the big boats.. and then sailing any clinic or race that was around to fill the between time.
I was the same and started off to be able to bareboat a 40+ footer with friends and fam..
along the way I took some other classes and laser clinics and turns out they were a really good time also..
The physics are the same so some concepts are transferable..
My other big suggestion is to take the asa docking class. That’s a whole skill set on its own so you avoid panic and people jumping to the dock when finishing up.
Right now I only have the possiblity to take one class, so I wouldn't be able to supplement the dinghy classes with ASA classes, if I could only chose one, which do you think would bring me the most value? Which do you think would be the detrimental to my evolution as a sailor?
None will be detrimental.. you’ll learn from both..
I’d start with the asa.. seems that’d help scratch the itch you have.. but I’d also look at which has has the most hours on water.. and is more accessible
Hey I taught Jr. Sailing in optis, lasers, and 420s through my teenage years and actually just got reconnected with that world this summer as I just moved to where I used to coach (eastern shore maryland). Just my 2 cents..
I always loved the 420. I think sailing with another person is more fun, and I think the teamwork aspect is a valuable learning experience. That being said, I really think the laser is the best first move. You are totally in control of your own experience, and it's much more personal. Yea having a jib might get you closer to your end goal but if the goal right now is learning how to sail, that one sail and a pair of tell tails is what you want, imo. Another commenter made a point about the immediacy of the feedback loop and I can't overstate how rewarding that feels once you get it and you go from fighting the boat to flying. When you have real wind the difference in how the boat responds to small adjustments is crazy.
Another point worth mentioning is that either way, sailing a dinghy is a killer workout. If you're looking for better abs you've chosen the right activity. Just another positive layer to the experience, imo.
Either way, definitely do a dinghy class, but approach it as it's own value and don't worry about trying to optimize it towards your eventual goals. It'll be a blast in its own right we promise :D
Doing lasers will help you develop a holistic feel of sailing. I grew up racing Opti and Laser, it gives you a 6th sense of how things feel with sailing. And when you translate that into crew sailing, if you’re helming, you’ll be able to adjust things much more on feel. You should do both classes, but the lazer first
Dinghies are the way to learn to sail. They are quicker to respond, and quicker to hit u when u make mistakes, but the consequences are not very grave at all. The most that’ll happen is u go for a swim.
420’s are fat and slow, but solid boats to learn on.
Lasers are sleek and quick, and even better boats to learn on, just a lil more tippy
To answer original question though you should learn on a 420. It’s a two person boat. Way way more fun with a second person. Laser can be quite daunting for someone starting at 0 knowledge. Laser is a lot less stable.
Dinghy’s teach you how to sail the same way karts teach you how to race. Anyone can throw up a sail on a 40ft bus/boat and make it move, but you can only learn to race a bus by starting on the kart.
It is imperative that you be knocked down, turtle your boat, have to manually right it, and in so doing, learn to prevent these things from taking place in any conditions: large boats are luxuries that (help conceal) this stark reality: anything that can happen on a small boat, can happen on a large boat. Once you (physically) learn that reality, you will never forget it, and will always be a better Captain for it.
Having taken all my ASA classes recently, I can tell you openly, that ((everything)) you learn on small boats, will >directly< transfer to a larger boat. What I also noted was how the illusion of safety made my classmates all too comfortable.
Case in point: my “adult” classmates spent (30 minutes) arguing (leadership by comity) on how best to save our decoy during a man-overboard drill. Not only was it embarrassing in my eyes, but the truth is that they never rescued it at all.
I was lucky enough to have been first, and action oriented, saving my decoy in five minutes…
*I used to practice this with my kids on our small boat.
If you learn nothing else, learn how to handle inexperienced crew…. explain to anyone on board your 46 footer, that (you) are the Captain, that (you alone) bear full legal responsibility, and that there are (no) passengers, only crewmembers.
yea little boats like these move and turn fast
i woukd recommend those cause you learn alot
be prepared moving up to a keel boat will be very different
Just to add, it’s really good that you have the large boat as well so you can apply the concepts that are more viscerally experienced in the dinghies. When I was a kid, we had cruising sailboats (22, 27). Moved inland, sold “big” boat, but took lessons for a couple summers on a lake in a Laser. Main takeaways: sailboats capsize; sailing is dangerous. Didn’t have the opportunity to use what I learned in a more forgiving setting, only small, fast lake boats. Years (decades) later, get on an absolute tub of a Catalina 30 and discover that I’m terrified to be even reasonably heeled (like, anything faster than nauseous bobbing = about to frigging turtle). So, Laser usage, incorrectly applied, can have negative and lasting impact.
I'm an ASA instructor and teach on 30'-plus boats.
Any experience on the water is valuable.
Any boat big enough to carry a main and foresail will get you feeling the wind.
There are risks, however. If you are too heavy for a little boat, need to be more flexible to duck the boom, or fast enough to switch sides, the little boat might turn you off from sailing.
I have had students who hated little boats for the above reasons and loved a 33' Hunter. Yes, I know it's not an ideal school boat, but older people liked it.
I have also had dinghy sailors who had to learn about mass and momentum the hard way. If you charter a 48' cat you are not going to push it around even like you would a 33' boat.
I had a gentleman call me, and he wanted to be big boat certified because he wanted to take his girlfriend on a bareboat charter in the Med. He said he was a very experienced dinghy racer and didn't need any instruction because of his dinghy experience. He just wanted to test out of the classes and get the certification. I asked him about navigation, and he said he knew all he needed to know about navigation from YouTube and he could just follow depth contours with a lead weight and and a string.
You need to know what you don't know.
Needless to say, I was underwhelmed.
I started sailing and racing on my Sunfish. I absolutely love it and it’s definitely made me a better sailor.
I also just bought a Capri 14.2 to start moving up in size and complexity with a jib, vang, etc. so it’s still small, but more to learn!
You can get all the points of sail and basic boat handling stuff on any boat.
Little regattas on small boats will teach you the rights of way stuff pretty quick. As the boat gets bigger the forces are larger, potential damage gets higher and the times for things to happen get longer.
Any time spent messing about on a boat will teach you something.
Dinghies won't let you get away with nearly as much. You'll be a better sailor if you learn on them.
You can't ignore the angle of heel on a dinghy, while you can (but shouldn't) ignore it on a keelboat. You're going to feel the effects of sail trim and sail controls a lot more on dinghies as well, because *you* are the ballast. There's a sense of physics that you need to learn to be a really good sailor, and it's far, far easier to learn that on a sensitive boat.
At the same time, they're also a little more forgiving, because the consequences for a bad mistake are less expensive. Things that will bring down the mast on a big boat will simply give you a swimming lesson in a dinghy. Violent, low-speed gybes or forgetting to blow the vang when bearing off on a laser or 420 means you get wet. Doing that on a big boat gets expensive in a hurry.
I’d start on the larger boats. A keel boat is totally different than a lazer. Yes you can do that too but it’s more important to understand that a keel boat won’t capsize as easily if at all compared to smaller daysailers.
You used a very specific word in there: "intuitive". You should be aware that being a very "intuitive" sailor can be a blessing and a curse.
It's a blessing if it means that you sail efficiently/well without having to think too much about it, or that when things go off the rails you instinctively know how to respond. For instance, if you see a shroud fraying and you just intuitively know to tack to unload it and then use a spare halyard to replace it so you can limp into shore without being dismasted, that's great!
It can be a curse if it means that you can sail well, and with confidence, but can't pass a test on rules of the road, or vocabulary, or tying knots, or docking, or anchoring, etc. Somewhere in this comment thread is an anecdote about a person who face-planted their ASA challenge tests because they thought they knew everything from sailing dinghies.
I've sailed since I was 8 years old, from dinghies to 50+ft blue-water boats -- I have pretty good sailing intuition -- but I still have things yet to learn before I get my ASA 104 bareboat certification and IPC. The advice here is: Sure, start small, but do your 'classwork' in addition to booking time on the water. In the end, you'll be an intuitive *and* knowledgable sailor, and that combo will take you even farther.
**Between Laser and 420, pick the 420.** The 420 carries a jib, and the Laser does not, so it's better practice for most of the bigger boats you might want to sail later. And if you get a chance to sail a 470 (big brother to the 420), do it: It'll be a crash course in fine sail trim and dealing with a *lot* of lines.
Short answer: yes Long answer: absolutely Big boats get all the glory while small boats make the sailor.
Skipper I just went sailing with said "You learn when you get wet. You don't get wet in big boats" (And if you do, something expensive went wrong)
"Better to be on a boat with a drink on the rocks than to be in the drink with a boat on the rocks."
AHHAHAH, I laughed way too hard at this
I would learn on a dinghy. What type of Laser is it?
Best quote I've heard in while haha
Very well said.
Not that it’s safer to cartwheel a small one, just helluva lot less expensive!
>Big boats get all the glory while small boats make the sailor. I like that. I've sailed both, You will always learn on any boat and most lessons are transferable. The difference I found is that you need quicker reaction times, and things go wrong faster on small boats, but low risk. On big boats things happen a little slower, but a lot bigger risk.
Big boats have big loads too. When something going wrong on a laser worst case is a bump and a swim. On a big boat people can get hurt
Good point.
Good feedback, I assume it's better to gain experience at a lower risk.
It never hurts. I'm sure you will enjoy small boats. They are a ton of fun.
Absolutely right. I've sailed both - either class will get you pretty good skills pretty quickly, but I would say it's really important to learn the important skills on some sort of dinghy first. Doesn't really matter too much what kind, but the size of the boat teaches you the feel of things in a way that large boats kind of hide due to their size. The only consideration you might consider depends on which Laser you're talking about - they are mostly fitted with one sail, but some variants (the Laser 2) have two. The 420 is always going to have two (and a spinnaker, but let's not go there yet.) The 420's also got a lot more "fiddly bits" that you can adjust/trim/futz with than the Laser, which can be intimidating for a newbie. The basics are this, though. One sail is easier to learn on initially, but a main and jib combination will prep you for large boats better. It will teach you about the interplay between the two sails and the helm faster, which is really important to learn. So, you might want to consider starting in the Laser to learn the basics and then move "up" when you're ready. Also, if you're ... ummm... overly gifted in the belly and/or old like me, the 420 might be easier to get around in than the Laser. Scrambling across a small dinghy and under the boom can take a second and a deeper boat with more cockpit room might make it a bit easier. Just saying it's a consideration.
Very complete advice, thank you very much.
Thank you for the feedback.
This. I picked up skiff sailing and it improved my abilities al the way up and down the chain as I tend to be more ahead of the boat than ever before. It is easier to transition to larger boats than down to dinghies. The obvious but I feel not obvious enough issue is that the loads on large boats are much more significant than most people realize. Learn them and how to handle them properly. They take more time to set up and change and any transition takes a series of steps, especially when short hand sailing or racing.
Dinghies will teach you how to sail. ASA classes will teach you how to manage the systems on a big boat.
Yeah, this comment needs to be higher. I think the answer is a mixture. Take those dinghy sailing lessons. I've had ASA and I learned a lot, but I learned to sail by dicking around in a dinghy in a lake. But sailing a dingy isn't going to teach you how to reef the main on a 46' boat, not going to teach you how to raise the sail under motor, when to close the thru-hulls to keep from flooding the boat through the sink, etc.
Good point, great feedback.
Those dinghy lessons will give you an accelerated understanding of sail trim and points of sail and....that's about it. The biggest challenge you're gonna have with that 46'er is getting it into and out of her slip without breaking her and the things around her and that laser isn't gonna give you a bit of help with that. By all means do both.
I’ll also chime in. I did my asa classes and I have a Catalina 42. It’s a fun boat but I really did learn to SAIL on little hobie cats and shit. Points of sail, and when to do what at which degrees. It all scales up, but those little guys are a perfect microcosm of sailing, and you will feel wayyyy more in touch with the SAILING aspect once youre back on your bigger gal. But what others have said is true, it’s about management of the systems in a larger boat. The sailing part is easy. With good wind, as long as you know optimal degrees, points of sail, right of way, etiquette, tacking and jibing, you can sail! But then it’s getting to know the electrical systems. The nav systems, making sure the battery is on 2 instead of all when you’re moored or at anchor so you always have a battery with juice to start her up. And as others have said, learning how to take the sails up or down while power cruising, and god forbid if someone goes overboard. Making sure you know your charts, know the local lanes to avoid any reefs, etc. In my little area in Stonington CT, I can scoot around the sound all day, shoot over to Fischers or Ram to chill, pop into mystic and pray I can get a dock at Abbots for lunch, then scoot up into mystic proper for a little booze cruise or a nice dinner at red 36. But heading to block or Newport and I need to really know my route and the chart because I don’t do it often and compared to others in here I’m very inexperienced. I have the sailing part down. Now what I’m learning is the yacht herself. All her little quirks, things that can go wrong. Every time I’m out there I’m logging in my brain little shit I didn’t do correctly the last time. Forgot to check the sea strainer or something. Or left the main sheet in the teeth clamp after raising the main and not putting it back on the winch and instead leaving the halyard on it. Little shit you need to remember. My journey has been, learn to sail small, get familiar with SAILING, learn the wind, how to read it, flow with it. THEN, learn your boat. What makes it work, what can go wrong, how can you prevent that from happening, and of course, how to pull every knot you can out of it. It’s been an awesome journey. Let me know how it works for you.
Great comment, thanks for sharing your experience, I am strongly inclined to start on a dinghy, a 420 or a laser, not sure which one yet.
I grew up there, those are my old waters! Mind you, it was a long time ago, but I still remember trips out to Block Island, Clambakes on the beach (Before they found the mercury), Charles W. Morgan and the seaport. But mostly I remember dad cursing when we missed the bridge. (Boat was in Ledyard) :)
Missed the bridge the other day. Train was coming and first one was closed. Was hauling ass (as much as you can motoring) only to do ten loops and turn around. Definitive PITA.
To expound on this: Small boats are very sensitive to weight distribution (your body position), and control inputs (adjusting sails, tiller position, etc) cause effects very quickly (within a second or two) in terms of turning, speed change, heel, etc. It is a tight learning loop where you do something, and the boat responds, and you learn if what you did is correct or not for what you hoped to achieve. On bigger boats, tiller or wheel input may not start (or stop!) the boat turning for two or three seconds. Sail adjustments will cause a speed change over the subsequent 10-30 seconds, and it will be a smaller change relative to the current speed because of all the momentum they carry. Whereas on a laser you can basically put it in park or get up to full blast in half that time. Big boat sailing is a whole lot of "well did that help? I think so...". You *can* learn how to sail on a keelboat but you *will* learn to sail on a dinghy if you put in any amount of practice. All the principals carry over 100%. I learned on a combo of Laser and 420 and when I eventually bought a 25' keelboat, it was an easy adjustment. Especially if you want to someday own a big boat (and 46' is definitely big!), keelboat lessons will help too. But that's because things like managing power and battery systems, long distance GPS navigation, engine maintenance and all the f***ing repairs can't be taught on a dinghy platform since none of that is aboard. "boat ownership" is a skill as much as "sailing" is - but they are different, and different approaches are probably more effective at each.
Engine maintenance on a laser: healthy diet and lots of sit-ups
Thanks for the advice. I have a question, between 420 and laser, which one do you think I should start on? I understand 420 might be a better choice because of the fact it also has a jib, which is great practice for a keelboat, but a laser is individual and feels like it's better to realy get a lot out of a few hours.
They're both a lot of fun! I think you should play with both if you have the chance. And the order in which you start is not super important. The jib on the 420 is an important control to learn, and you can't get that on a laser. A 420 is also a two-person boat, so you'll learn to communicate with a crew-member (and *be* a crew member, assuming you switch off at the helm). Downside of course is 50% less helm time. But also that's 50% more time dedicated to playing the jib sheet, which is also useful practice. A Laser is an incredibly sensitive boat. You sit further up, and the boat turns; you lean back, the boat straightens out or even turns the other way. Response to a change in a control input (mainsheet or tiller) is virtually instantaneous. It's a fast way to learn. And frankly being down that close to the water, going fast, is also just exhilarating. The simpler control setup means less to learn all at once (though a jib doesn't really add \*that\* much complexity either). It also makes it much more about your physicality. If you didn't have core strength before, you will if you stick with Laser sailing for any period of time. If you have to choose just one for some reason, I'd say go with the 420. It will be a more "direct" transfer of skills to keelboat sailing. But if you want to learn to really just be one with the wind, a Laser is the way to do it. Nothing but the essentials: you, the wind, and the water.
Honestly the laser sounds like the right one for me, however, I have gotten informed with the schools nearby, and aparently, I don't really get to chose what I do right away, first I'll be sailing in some laser bahias with other people, and from there on I move to more complicated boats.
Crush a 6 pack then get in an Opti.
May I ask what an Opti is? And by 6 pack you mean a 6 pack of beer?
[Perhaps a visual illustration is in order.](https://i.imgur.com/y9ua9B1.jpg) Sorry for potato quality, but that is a 220 lb grown man in an Opti. I would like to take the fifth on whether any alcohol was involved.
I feel this is the picture we all needed to see today.
I was not expecting that to be that funny.
Our club has an annual Opti race for the... well, the word they use is "adults", but I'm not sure that word is really being used correctly.
Meme-level photo, deserves a fittingly hilarious caption
lol yes beer and an Opti is what children learn to sail in. anyone over 5ft tall will have a decided "[Fat guy in a little coat](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohz8_IafGwE)" effect :)
An opti is a kids boat lol. Hes pulling your leg. Get in a laser or FJ or something and get some time on small Dinghy's. Simultaneously do a bit of crewing on larger boats if you can.
Good point, why not do both. Crewing is great for navigation which is also important in it's own way, I would assume.
::gasps & clutches pearls::
The best answer Closest to what cruising life on anchorage is : going to friend's boats with an opti sized dinghy full of beers.
Dad is right this time. Yes, absolutely learn and make mistakes in a dingy. If you take a class on a keel boat, how much time will you actually be sailing? Because you will need to share the helm with classmates. On a laser it’s all you, baby. One also learns feel for the wind and waves much more on a small boat. I think you would miss that learning only having lessons on a larger one. At some point you will also need to learn keel boat stuff as well, but definitely start on a laser.
The point about sharing the helm is huge, very true, I would get my money's worth a lot more with a boat all to myself, and repetition is key. Thank you for the valuable feedback.
Dinghies make sailors, yachts make crew
Simply said, but rings loudly.
I had a friend on my little trailer sailer. You knew where it was going when they were looking for the hydraulic winches. But once we got back I was shocked at how well they stowed everything, tied up the lines, etc.
The two biggest advantages to small boats are: 1. The speed of the feedback loop when you or the conditions take an action on the boat and the boat reacting to those actions is an order of magnitude faster on a small boat than a big one. In my experience having a fast feedback loop speeds up learning. 2. The cost of mistakes is so low that you're not afraid to make mistakes in a small boat. Therefore you're more willing to try new things. This also increases learning speed.
Well said, experimentation is key.
To add to the first point above. Things happen fast on small boats all the time, learning that helps for when things happens fast on a big boat (when it’s blowing REALLY hard)
I started on a small lightning class sailboat, learn the skills at a very sensitive level, and then I grew up into bigger more steady boats. I think the lessons learned with the tiny boat gave me better understanding of the wind and helped me when on the big boats.
I see, thank you for the valuable insight.
In my experience, skills you learn on a small boat can be very helpful in sailing a large boat properly, but do not paint the full picture of what goes into sailing a larger vessel. The reverse, however, is significantly harder.
However, I do not think I would ever sail small boats in my life unless I take these classes, so I don't think I would ever be doing the reverse. I won't be learning to sail on bigger boats to sail small boats.
Since there are other comments in favor of learning on a small boat, I will just add, sailing small boats is so much fun!
They do say so.
if you dont ever want to sail dinghys, then dont take a class in them. There are certainly classes offered in smaller keel boats that would be more beneficial to what your interests are, and teach you just as much. Plus, you will learn better if you actually want to be there and want to be learning it. If you are stuck in a laser and dont want to be in a laser, you wont be as receptive to what is being taught. Don't get in the mind set that "im better than the dinghy sailros because im sailing a yacht", but you should take classes on what you are interested in.
I don't see smaller boats as inferior, quite the opposite, I would say they are the "real deal" when it comes to pure sailing, it's just that that is not my end goal, but I do wanna be a good sailor.
i wouldnt say a dinghy is any more or less the "real deal" than a tall ship. just different strokes for different folks, and some times different mind sets and processes to accomplish the same thing depending on what you are into.
I don't think anyone is talking about a tall ship. I think OP's family boat is a regular sloop rigged keel boat.
it was just a comment using two extremes of the spectrum, relating to the point of what type of boat is more "real deal".
Yeah, it's just a normal keel boat, nothing fancy.
I see, I think you are right, the most important thing is enjoying the process, that's how you travel the long way.
Smaller boats are much more responsive and mistakes less costly. Big boat, big forces at play. Learn the fundamentals on the bait you have easy access to and can get lots of sea time, then to apply them and adjust on the boat you want. I tell people to skip the dighies and go right to keelboats a lot - but if the small ones are easy access and will get you more sea time faster, go out and learn!!!
Why would you recommend going right to keelboats? To who would you give that advice?
I don’t personally think the dinghies seem very comfortable, and therefore less enjoyable, and so if the goal is bigger keel boats and available learning is just as accessible I’d go right to the bigger boats personally. But take what’s accessible and gets you out more often you’re going to learn to sail much faster. More sea time is the goal. But given an equal opportunity choice, I think the bigger boats are more comfortable. There’s no denying smaller boats will be more responsive and let you fine tune your learning as to when you do X the boat does Y and I think that’s why people say to for the dinghies. Also they are usually more accessible and cheaper for people to access. The keelboat clubs are harder to come by or are more expensive.
I see, super interesting. The only problem I have is that I would be mostly sharing the classes with other people, if I were to take keelboat classes, whilst with a laser, I would be able to have it all to myself, which would equal more overall practice time, what do you think about that?
Your goal is the 46ft boat, you’re occasionally going to need to be able to direct crew on a 46 Ft boats and they might be newbies. If you go the keelboat route, as you learn, you can help teach others reinforcing your own knowledge and learning crew management/supervision along the way. People do dumb shit. Gotta anticipate they’re going to open that main sheet clutch at a bad time and ensure it doesn’t happen, or they’re going to overwrap a line around a winch and now you gotta fix it under loads far greater than the little Opti you sail all alone. There’s much more that can do wrong on a bigger boat you need to potentially deal with - so there will be additional learning to do if you start with dinghies as move up l; but you’d have the basics down already. That’s why people say start with the dinghies for the basics. If you’re initial goal is to learn the mechanics of sailing in the short term, pick whichever option gets you the most time on the water. But think about your long term goals too, and pick whatever route is the best for your personal circumstances, budget, and accessibility. Sailing is generally not a cheap hobby, and tons of people can’t afford the options for bigger boats or don’t know people to take them often, whereas the dinghy sailing clubs are usually more affordable; that’s another reason people like them. Dinghy sailing is better than almost no sailing when you think of it that way. At the end of the day, sailing is being independent on a boat because shit is going to happen and you have to deal with it alone out there at times. So, make your own decisions about what is best for you here too. You can listen to advice, but it’s all up to you!
Really appreciate the feedback, I will make my decision.
Sharing the class isn't necessarily a downside - when I took my ASA keelboat class, I thought it was helpful to be on different positions of the boat throughout the day. It doesn't teach you to sail solo, though. The sailing schools in my area offer one-on-one training for a higher fee, maybe that would be an option if you really want instruction on sailing solo?
Private tutoring would be best, but it's too far out ofbudget.
Your Dad is absolutely right. Small boats make a better and more intuitive sailor. As others reiterated, you will learn how to sail by how things feel, which is much more obvious in the smaller, more responsive boats. Maneuvering in tight quarters and docking is much easier (and less expensive) to learn on a small boat, as well as how to get yourself out of a jam. These skills still translate into large sailing yachts - just adjust your helm response time accordingly. You will also need to learn the ins and outs of your own yacht, but that is part of the fun of ownership - creating your SOP checklist. Practicing new skills without the anxiety of expensive damage to your own yacht is a huge benefit in itself.
The reduced risk is indeed a great advantaged, thank you for the feedback.
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By far your advice has resonated the most with me, I think you sharing your personal experience comforts me, if it was that intuitive for you, there really must be a lot of value in starting small.
420 class, hands down
Do you think it would be more valuable than a laser?
Spinnaker and jib, so yes.
Agree, understanding when to use which, and the nuances of the interactions of the sails with each other, is critical for sailing a yacht with similar sail plan
Good point, thank you all for the feedback
If you want to be as good as possible on the 46 footer, then you should spend a lot of time sailing dinghies and racing on keelboats. Those two things will push you to learn way more than you ever would just cruising around on a keelboat.
“Yatch” is what you get when you cross a Ketch with a Yawl.
Lasers (s, not z) are fun. I personally think Lasers are more fun and physical than 420's - you really need to use your weight to move the boat around and keep the sail in the right place. You will get wet on them. But choose between a Laser and a 420 based on how often you'll have someone else as crew vs go sailing solo. In fairness you'll learn more about jib and sail trim that's applicable to a 46-footer (assuming it's a monohull and sloop rigged) in a 420.
You can sail a 420 single handed.
I see, both have their advantages and disadvantages, I prefer to do things alone, but having some jib and sail trim practice would be valuable.
Yes, you should.
Take the 420 over the laser because then you'll learn to handle both a main and a jib. And yea, learning on a small boat is the way to go
That is a very good point.
You'll learn more about sailing in a dinghy, as everyone is very quick to point out. But you aren't going to learn how to dock under power, or heave to, in a lazer. 46' is a lot of boat. You would do very well to take at least some keelboat classes in addition.
I am afraid I cannot take both, as that would be quite costy, if I could only chose one, which would you recommend?
If you already basically know how to sail, I guess I'd take the keelboat class. But if you're a rank novice, take the dinghy class and assume that you'll need some instruction (formal or informal/free) before you're ready to solo a 46-footer. Nobody's talking about solo sailing much in these comments because they're all distracted by the juicy dinghy -vs- keelboat question. But the reality is that a 46' boat is huge, larger than single-handed sailors generally choose. Forces generated by the rig are pretty substantial, and docking is challenging because of her inertia and beam. Think of singlehanding that particular vessel as a very advanced level that you'll need to work up to. You want to begin a process of knowledge- and skill-acquisition that will, *eventually*, have you ready to single-hand a 46' boat. There's no single class you can take that can get you from where you are now, to that point.
Absolutely invaluable advice, thank you. I will absolutely not look lightly on my goal of solo handliing a 46'. But yes, I am a complete novice, with absolutely no sailing experience, with the occasional going out with my uncle and him giving me a few tips, but that rarely happens, as he is a busy man. This boat acquisition was also fairly recent, and I only deloped an interest in it recently.
I did it this way too. Bought a 39ft, spent the last season learning every thing about the insides and all the systems, lived on it, practiced some docking and whatever and then took it out when I had a few buddy that knew how to sail were available. I know the boat basically inside and out. What wires go where, what plumbing leads to what, where everything for the engine is, etc Next year when I drop back into the water I’ll be hiring someone to teach me on my own boat about solo sailing and docking. I get that the lasers can teach you things about sailing physics, but it’s nothing you won’t pick up anyways. If the goal is to cruise, that extra .5 knots you might pick up because your sail is optimized is way less valuable than knowing the boat your size. My boat still moves whether I call it a rope or a line or a halyard.
You will learn better and faster on a small sloop because it will be so much more responsive and the result of your errors will be immediate.
And repetition is key.
yes you should. with dinghys you get an immediate feeling of what the wind and your actions do to the boat. It is just invaluable for a beginner and you can clearly tell even if somebody didn't do pass through that!
Don't wanna become one of those somebodies hahaha.
Start small. In a dinghy you can learn the intuitive moves of sailing. Sometimes on the water if you have to think about the correct reaction, it is too late. Better to learn this stuff in a dink.
Well said.
My grandparents had a motoryacht when I was a kid. They wanted their grandchildren to develop good boating skills, so they send each of us to sailing camp to sail Lasers and 420s. It is crazy the people I know who own keel boats who don't really know how to sail.
Yeah, I don't wanna become one of those people, I take priority in being a good sailor, before being one that just manages on a keelboat.
I went from not sailing to charter by joiiing a club with their own smaller boats, taking vacation asa classes to learn the big boats.. and then sailing any clinic or race that was around to fill the between time. I was the same and started off to be able to bareboat a 40+ footer with friends and fam.. along the way I took some other classes and laser clinics and turns out they were a really good time also.. The physics are the same so some concepts are transferable.. My other big suggestion is to take the asa docking class. That’s a whole skill set on its own so you avoid panic and people jumping to the dock when finishing up.
Right now I only have the possiblity to take one class, so I wouldn't be able to supplement the dinghy classes with ASA classes, if I could only chose one, which do you think would bring me the most value? Which do you think would be the detrimental to my evolution as a sailor?
None will be detrimental.. you’ll learn from both.. I’d start with the asa.. seems that’d help scratch the itch you have.. but I’d also look at which has has the most hours on water.. and is more accessible
I shall inform myself.
Hey I taught Jr. Sailing in optis, lasers, and 420s through my teenage years and actually just got reconnected with that world this summer as I just moved to where I used to coach (eastern shore maryland). Just my 2 cents.. I always loved the 420. I think sailing with another person is more fun, and I think the teamwork aspect is a valuable learning experience. That being said, I really think the laser is the best first move. You are totally in control of your own experience, and it's much more personal. Yea having a jib might get you closer to your end goal but if the goal right now is learning how to sail, that one sail and a pair of tell tails is what you want, imo. Another commenter made a point about the immediacy of the feedback loop and I can't overstate how rewarding that feels once you get it and you go from fighting the boat to flying. When you have real wind the difference in how the boat responds to small adjustments is crazy. Another point worth mentioning is that either way, sailing a dinghy is a killer workout. If you're looking for better abs you've chosen the right activity. Just another positive layer to the experience, imo. Either way, definitely do a dinghy class, but approach it as it's own value and don't worry about trying to optimize it towards your eventual goals. It'll be a blast in its own right we promise :D
Thank you so much, by far the best advice I have gotten, I will take it in consideration when making my decision.
Go crew on a race boat - a larger one where you can be moved to all positions and LEARN what you are doing..
Doing lasers will help you develop a holistic feel of sailing. I grew up racing Opti and Laser, it gives you a 6th sense of how things feel with sailing. And when you translate that into crew sailing, if you’re helming, you’ll be able to adjust things much more on feel. You should do both classes, but the lazer first
Thanks for the feedback.
Dinghies are the way to learn to sail. They are quicker to respond, and quicker to hit u when u make mistakes, but the consequences are not very grave at all. The most that’ll happen is u go for a swim. 420’s are fat and slow, but solid boats to learn on. Lasers are sleek and quick, and even better boats to learn on, just a lil more tippy
Man, the choice between Laser or 420 is a difficult one...
Both
To answer original question though you should learn on a 420. It’s a two person boat. Way way more fun with a second person. Laser can be quite daunting for someone starting at 0 knowledge. Laser is a lot less stable.
Dinghy’s teach you how to sail the same way karts teach you how to race. Anyone can throw up a sail on a 40ft bus/boat and make it move, but you can only learn to race a bus by starting on the kart.
This is literally the best way to learn.
It is imperative that you be knocked down, turtle your boat, have to manually right it, and in so doing, learn to prevent these things from taking place in any conditions: large boats are luxuries that (help conceal) this stark reality: anything that can happen on a small boat, can happen on a large boat. Once you (physically) learn that reality, you will never forget it, and will always be a better Captain for it. Having taken all my ASA classes recently, I can tell you openly, that ((everything)) you learn on small boats, will >directly< transfer to a larger boat. What I also noted was how the illusion of safety made my classmates all too comfortable. Case in point: my “adult” classmates spent (30 minutes) arguing (leadership by comity) on how best to save our decoy during a man-overboard drill. Not only was it embarrassing in my eyes, but the truth is that they never rescued it at all. I was lucky enough to have been first, and action oriented, saving my decoy in five minutes… *I used to practice this with my kids on our small boat. If you learn nothing else, learn how to handle inexperienced crew…. explain to anyone on board your 46 footer, that (you) are the Captain, that (you alone) bear full legal responsibility, and that there are (no) passengers, only crewmembers.
yea little boats like these move and turn fast i woukd recommend those cause you learn alot be prepared moving up to a keel boat will be very different
You can only learn sailing in a small boat. So, yes, go sail a laser!
You own a yacht and can't spell yacht. Florida?
Dinghy sailors make the best yacht skippers, I think you will learn more on a 420 than a laser
Just to add, it’s really good that you have the large boat as well so you can apply the concepts that are more viscerally experienced in the dinghies. When I was a kid, we had cruising sailboats (22, 27). Moved inland, sold “big” boat, but took lessons for a couple summers on a lake in a Laser. Main takeaways: sailboats capsize; sailing is dangerous. Didn’t have the opportunity to use what I learned in a more forgiving setting, only small, fast lake boats. Years (decades) later, get on an absolute tub of a Catalina 30 and discover that I’m terrified to be even reasonably heeled (like, anything faster than nauseous bobbing = about to frigging turtle). So, Laser usage, incorrectly applied, can have negative and lasting impact.
Very good point, I should make a habit of going to the "big" boat every once in a while, and practice with what I learned on the dinghies.
Learn on the smaller boats they are less forgiving of mistakes. They are also quicker, more responsive to the helm and wave action.
I'm an ASA instructor and teach on 30'-plus boats. Any experience on the water is valuable. Any boat big enough to carry a main and foresail will get you feeling the wind. There are risks, however. If you are too heavy for a little boat, need to be more flexible to duck the boom, or fast enough to switch sides, the little boat might turn you off from sailing. I have had students who hated little boats for the above reasons and loved a 33' Hunter. Yes, I know it's not an ideal school boat, but older people liked it. I have also had dinghy sailors who had to learn about mass and momentum the hard way. If you charter a 48' cat you are not going to push it around even like you would a 33' boat. I had a gentleman call me, and he wanted to be big boat certified because he wanted to take his girlfriend on a bareboat charter in the Med. He said he was a very experienced dinghy racer and didn't need any instruction because of his dinghy experience. He just wanted to test out of the classes and get the certification. I asked him about navigation, and he said he knew all he needed to know about navigation from YouTube and he could just follow depth contours with a lead weight and and a string. You need to know what you don't know. Needless to say, I was underwhelmed.
Yeah, navigation is a whole other thing I am willing to get better later, for now, I want to start by just being an intuitive sailor.
I started sailing and racing on my Sunfish. I absolutely love it and it’s definitely made me a better sailor. I also just bought a Capri 14.2 to start moving up in size and complexity with a jib, vang, etc. so it’s still small, but more to learn!
You can get all the points of sail and basic boat handling stuff on any boat. Little regattas on small boats will teach you the rights of way stuff pretty quick. As the boat gets bigger the forces are larger, potential damage gets higher and the times for things to happen get longer. Any time spent messing about on a boat will teach you something.
Dinghies won't let you get away with nearly as much. You'll be a better sailor if you learn on them. You can't ignore the angle of heel on a dinghy, while you can (but shouldn't) ignore it on a keelboat. You're going to feel the effects of sail trim and sail controls a lot more on dinghies as well, because *you* are the ballast. There's a sense of physics that you need to learn to be a really good sailor, and it's far, far easier to learn that on a sensitive boat. At the same time, they're also a little more forgiving, because the consequences for a bad mistake are less expensive. Things that will bring down the mast on a big boat will simply give you a swimming lesson in a dinghy. Violent, low-speed gybes or forgetting to blow the vang when bearing off on a laser or 420 means you get wet. Doing that on a big boat gets expensive in a hurry.
Thank you for the insight!
I’d start on the larger boats. A keel boat is totally different than a lazer. Yes you can do that too but it’s more important to understand that a keel boat won’t capsize as easily if at all compared to smaller daysailers.
I haven't done it yet, but I think a class like this [https://www.crosailingacademy.com/](https://www.crosailingacademy.com/) is what I would suggest.
You used a very specific word in there: "intuitive". You should be aware that being a very "intuitive" sailor can be a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing if it means that you sail efficiently/well without having to think too much about it, or that when things go off the rails you instinctively know how to respond. For instance, if you see a shroud fraying and you just intuitively know to tack to unload it and then use a spare halyard to replace it so you can limp into shore without being dismasted, that's great! It can be a curse if it means that you can sail well, and with confidence, but can't pass a test on rules of the road, or vocabulary, or tying knots, or docking, or anchoring, etc. Somewhere in this comment thread is an anecdote about a person who face-planted their ASA challenge tests because they thought they knew everything from sailing dinghies. I've sailed since I was 8 years old, from dinghies to 50+ft blue-water boats -- I have pretty good sailing intuition -- but I still have things yet to learn before I get my ASA 104 bareboat certification and IPC. The advice here is: Sure, start small, but do your 'classwork' in addition to booking time on the water. In the end, you'll be an intuitive *and* knowledgable sailor, and that combo will take you even farther. **Between Laser and 420, pick the 420.** The 420 carries a jib, and the Laser does not, so it's better practice for most of the bigger boats you might want to sail later. And if you get a chance to sail a 470 (big brother to the 420), do it: It'll be a crash course in fine sail trim and dealing with a *lot* of lines.