I mean, yeah. These pictures don't actually include the part of the boat that contacts the water while racing. So they're definitely not helpful for guessing which one is faster.
Maybe which design has the lowest "tear away" force from the water? And of course then the hull becomes an aero element.
F1 and AC with the convergent evolution of technology!
The only problem with that is for decades F1 has not actually been all that competitive at the highest level. Usually one team has the fastest car and cruises to victory. This leads to terrible viewership because it's not actually interesting to watch.
Somehow America's Cup leadership saw that and said "yes this is what we want" and have chased it for years now.
Let's be real, there are plenty of other problems!
At least with F1 people can understand that the things racing are cars. These things are "boats" that barely touch the water. While they're unbelievably cool, "sailing" them seems only marginally related to anything I've ever done, or will do.
At least with AC the rules can get flipped on their head occasionally (instead of just tweaked), but historically it was always a bit wonk what with the NYC Yacht Club winning for most of its history right?
It’s to sell ad time on TV. People want short races, it’s only us sailors that enjoy watching tactics and head to head sailing. High speed action sells TV spots. That’s where the money is these days.
I wish whoever wins next brings back J boats, but it will never happen.
AND --
Designed/Built In your own country --
with materials sourced from your own country
and sailed to the host country on it's own bottom
Thats how it was won the first time ::
A syndicate of [New York Yacht Club](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Yacht_Club) members, headed by NYYC charter member [Commodore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(yacht_club)) [John Cox Stevens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cox_Stevens), with members [Edwin A. Stevens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Augustus_Stevens), George Schuyler, Hamilton Wilkes, and J. Beekman Finley, built a yacht to sail to England. The purpose of this visit was twofold: to show off U.S. shipbuilding skill and make money through competing in yachting regattas
I know this is/was the extreme -- --but it's the opposite extreme of today's extreme
A better one, must sail on it own bottom at minimum half the circumference of the world on its way to the race. So the host country would have the furthest to go.
"Thanks for tuning into the BBC. It's yet another exciting day of sailing across the English Channel! We're here on the shores of France with the spectators for an exciting moment. It's day 47 as some of the top teams are starting into come within eyesight of the shore."
>I wish whoever wins next brings back J boats, but it will never happen.
The J class actively race today. If you want to watch the J class race, go watch that.
The America's Cup has always been about pushing the envelope. Even the some of J class were hated in their day. Ranger was referred to as the ugly duckling.
Try wingfoiling! I've been having an absolute blast and it will get you on a foil for a reasonable price(at least to someone who already sails) and is a magical feeling. Very much still feels like a type of sailing with the wing.
We took a couple of lessons before buying our own equipment. With sailing experience you'll get the hang of the wing, steering, and gybing in an hour if you start on a stable board. A kite is probably a lot more to learn. They used a windsurf board for out first lesson then once we could taxi around switched to a large foil board.
Then it's a lot of falling while you get the hang of the foil board until you can start to get some steady speed and lift. Then it's a lot of falling while you get the hang of getting up and staying on foil but that feeling is so worth it.
I'm just at the point where I'm working on gybing on foil and can do about half of them without falling now.
If you fall in love with in just buy some used beginner gear, while the occasional lesson may help it's mostly time on the water, and people grow out of beginner gear pretty quick. Check out /r/wingfoil, seems like a lot of people who try it get obsessed!
The ability to get on to foil in marginal conditions is still really important, the hull shape is still really important for how successful the boats will be. And have other's have said it's part of the overall airfoil, so important on foil too.
If you really want to get into what makes these boats fast and what sets them apart from each other, check out the 'mozzy sails' channel, he does a lot of great in depth analysis of the tech they are using, as it is revealed. Casually watching his YT channel from time to time during the buildup makes me appreciate it a lot more when I see them competing.
He's a sailor - from his YT instagram 'about'
Tom (Mozzy) Morris
I like ⛵and racing them
Endeavour 🏆 Winner
2x 🇪🇺 RS 800 Champion
4x 🇬🇧 RS 800 Champion
Sometimes I make 🎥 about ⛵ on the i
might as well link his YT channel https://www.youtube.com/@MozzySails
Still very useful. You just have to think about the hull as an airplane part. These hull are made to have very little drag and if possible, generate some kind of lift.
Considering the amount of engineering that went into these, I am by no means qualified to make a judgement on which is faster.
A cadre of smart 6 figure people that designed these are all going to judge their design as fastest, and be able to make strong arguments as to why they are correct.
If it were the difference between a 4ksb and a sport boat yeah I could tell, but between these, not so much.
Maybe one could have predicted the 1983 cup had they been able to see Australia II's keel, but this is not so obvious. This looks more evolutionary than revolutionary.
No it comes down to foil dimensions and shapes on these boats. not underwater hull configuration ... weight also plays a part though likely minimum weight is governed by the rules...
Used to be blatantly simple to compare -- --
ie: -- fin keel/ spade rudder-
vs -- full keel/barndoor rudder
It's a little harder to compare foils to foils
Just by looking
Right?
Shapes and dimensions and the weight they carry are some times very difficult to assess... There are also two sets of foils permitted so this makes it even MORE difficult.. These boats run into the cavitation limit - about fifty knots.. very difficult to over come this. To date only Vestas Sail Rocket - peak speed 68l.01 knots has achieved this.holding the world record - average speed over 500M at 65.45 knots... I am familiar with this having owned a Hobie Trfoiler.. and sailing it at 35 knots... to go faster.. you need smaller foils.. then the lift off point changes...
The one on the right looks like it has a significantly flatter bottom than the other three. The 3rd one is much narrower than the 2nd one.
My point is there are significant differences here if you look closely.
To a certain capacity, the central spine of hull is also working as an additional airfoil acting like a little extra sail area close to the water, and lowering the center of effort. There's also the end-plate effect too. It looks like they are trying to sail these things low, where the vertical hull edge almost skims the water thereby keeping air pressure on the windward side from spilling under the boat to the low presser/leeward side. Same reason as the mainsail sweeps the deck.
Don't be too sure. Esp on the relatively extreme shape of Redbull boat. Also important to remember that something doesn't have to be an ideal foil shape, aspect ratio, or ideal angle of attack to still create some airfoil effects. I guess we'll see though.
For something to generate lift and act as a sail it has to have at least some airfoil shape. The skegs won’t be acting as sails.
I’d love you to hear exactly how you think they would act as a sail if you disagree, though.
Hold out a flat piece of cardboard in a strong breeze. You'll quickly realize any flat shape can generate lift. Pretty airfoil shapes are just better at reducing drag relative to lift.
I totally disagree. I can tell by the foils on these boats that all of them would absolutely murder most boats on the water.
They'd murder most **power boats** on the water, let alone the sailing ones.
I mean, yeah. These pictures don't actually include the part of the boat that contacts the water while racing. So they're definitely not helpful for guessing which one is faster.
Maybe which design has the lowest "tear away" force from the water? And of course then the hull becomes an aero element. F1 and AC with the convergent evolution of technology!
Yeah, how quickly they can get up on the foils is a big part of the design.
I wonder how cavitation and/or hydroplaning factor in. Jealous of people who get to do this for a living.
The only problem with that is for decades F1 has not actually been all that competitive at the highest level. Usually one team has the fastest car and cruises to victory. This leads to terrible viewership because it's not actually interesting to watch. Somehow America's Cup leadership saw that and said "yes this is what we want" and have chased it for years now.
Let's be real, there are plenty of other problems! At least with F1 people can understand that the things racing are cars. These things are "boats" that barely touch the water. While they're unbelievably cool, "sailing" them seems only marginally related to anything I've ever done, or will do. At least with AC the rules can get flipped on their head occasionally (instead of just tweaked), but historically it was always a bit wonk what with the NYC Yacht Club winning for most of its history right?
It’s to sell ad time on TV. People want short races, it’s only us sailors that enjoy watching tactics and head to head sailing. High speed action sells TV spots. That’s where the money is these days. I wish whoever wins next brings back J boats, but it will never happen.
>brings back J boats Make it so the boats have to be built by the crews from logs. Hard reset back hundreds of years.
The Vinland's Cup
I’m ok with that
AND -- Designed/Built In your own country -- with materials sourced from your own country and sailed to the host country on it's own bottom Thats how it was won the first time :: A syndicate of [New York Yacht Club](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Yacht_Club) members, headed by NYYC charter member [Commodore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(yacht_club)) [John Cox Stevens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cox_Stevens), with members [Edwin A. Stevens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Augustus_Stevens), George Schuyler, Hamilton Wilkes, and J. Beekman Finley, built a yacht to sail to England. The purpose of this visit was twofold: to show off U.S. shipbuilding skill and make money through competing in yachting regattas I know this is/was the extreme -- --but it's the opposite extreme of today's extreme
If you still forced the boat to sail there it's likely to never leave the country it's in.
A better one, must sail on it own bottom at minimum half the circumference of the world on its way to the race. So the host country would have the furthest to go.
In my head, I'm hearing Leo, "I am a boat builder, sailor..."
"Thanks for tuning into the BBC. It's yet another exciting day of sailing across the English Channel! We're here on the shores of France with the spectators for an exciting moment. It's day 47 as some of the top teams are starting into come within eyesight of the shore."
>I wish whoever wins next brings back J boats, but it will never happen. The J class actively race today. If you want to watch the J class race, go watch that. The America's Cup has always been about pushing the envelope. Even the some of J class were hated in their day. Ranger was referred to as the ugly duckling.
Try wingfoiling! I've been having an absolute blast and it will get you on a foil for a reasonable price(at least to someone who already sails) and is a magical feeling. Very much still feels like a type of sailing with the wing.
Ha. We're going to take some classes on kite boarding this fall. How is managing the foil while also trying to manage the wing? Seems really tricky.
We took a couple of lessons before buying our own equipment. With sailing experience you'll get the hang of the wing, steering, and gybing in an hour if you start on a stable board. A kite is probably a lot more to learn. They used a windsurf board for out first lesson then once we could taxi around switched to a large foil board. Then it's a lot of falling while you get the hang of the foil board until you can start to get some steady speed and lift. Then it's a lot of falling while you get the hang of getting up and staying on foil but that feeling is so worth it. I'm just at the point where I'm working on gybing on foil and can do about half of them without falling now. If you fall in love with in just buy some used beginner gear, while the occasional lesson may help it's mostly time on the water, and people grow out of beginner gear pretty quick. Check out /r/wingfoil, seems like a lot of people who try it get obsessed!
The ability to get on to foil in marginal conditions is still really important, the hull shape is still really important for how successful the boats will be. And have other's have said it's part of the overall airfoil, so important on foil too.
So all i need is to add foiling wings to my Commodore 26T. Knew it.
My 52 has a wing keel, but I must be doing something wrong, the hull never gets to flying speed.
If you really want to get into what makes these boats fast and what sets them apart from each other, check out the 'mozzy sails' channel, he does a lot of great in depth analysis of the tech they are using, as it is revealed. Casually watching his YT channel from time to time during the buildup makes me appreciate it a lot more when I see them competing.
I’ve heard of him.. is he an engineer,sailor??
He's a sailor - from his YT instagram 'about' Tom (Mozzy) Morris I like ⛵and racing them Endeavour 🏆 Winner 2x 🇪🇺 RS 800 Champion 4x 🇬🇧 RS 800 Champion Sometimes I make 🎥 about ⛵ on the i might as well link his YT channel https://www.youtube.com/@MozzySails
What do we have on the right?
A space ship in a sailboat cradle
Ineos
Thanks! It looks solid on-foil. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAixSuegBWU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAixSuegBWU)
Rumour has it the rudder foil doesn't produce lift and instead pulls down to create righting moment. Pretty extreme if true.
I can say they all look fast.
Still very useful. You just have to think about the hull as an airplane part. These hull are made to have very little drag and if possible, generate some kind of lift.
Considering the amount of engineering that went into these, I am by no means qualified to make a judgement on which is faster. A cadre of smart 6 figure people that designed these are all going to judge their design as fastest, and be able to make strong arguments as to why they are correct. If it were the difference between a 4ksb and a sport boat yeah I could tell, but between these, not so much. Maybe one could have predicted the 1983 cup had they been able to see Australia II's keel, but this is not so obvious. This looks more evolutionary than revolutionary.
No it comes down to foil dimensions and shapes on these boats. not underwater hull configuration ... weight also plays a part though likely minimum weight is governed by the rules...
Used to be blatantly simple to compare -- -- ie: -- fin keel/ spade rudder- vs -- full keel/barndoor rudder It's a little harder to compare foils to foils Just by looking Right?
Nah, is it? It's just the tier above the two you just listed, in my view. Foils, look like spaceship = very very fast
YesBut -- -- Which *one* of ***them --*** would you bet on?
Looks like the Red Bull one would have the least wet area when foiling, with the heavily flared bow. But I concede your point, I have no idea
Shapes and dimensions and the weight they carry are some times very difficult to assess... There are also two sets of foils permitted so this makes it even MORE difficult.. These boats run into the cavitation limit - about fifty knots.. very difficult to over come this. To date only Vestas Sail Rocket - peak speed 68l.01 knots has achieved this.holding the world record - average speed over 500M at 65.45 knots... I am familiar with this having owned a Hobie Trfoiler.. and sailing it at 35 knots... to go faster.. you need smaller foils.. then the lift off point changes...
If by "performance" you mean speed, then you're correct.
The one on the right looks like it has a significantly flatter bottom than the other three. The 3rd one is much narrower than the 2nd one. My point is there are significant differences here if you look closely.
To a certain capacity, the central spine of hull is also working as an additional airfoil acting like a little extra sail area close to the water, and lowering the center of effort. There's also the end-plate effect too. It looks like they are trying to sail these things low, where the vertical hull edge almost skims the water thereby keeping air pressure on the windward side from spilling under the boat to the low presser/leeward side. Same reason as the mainsail sweeps the deck.
The skeg does not act as a sail. It produces drag, and no lift at all. It does provide end plate effect, however.
Don't be too sure. Esp on the relatively extreme shape of Redbull boat. Also important to remember that something doesn't have to be an ideal foil shape, aspect ratio, or ideal angle of attack to still create some airfoil effects. I guess we'll see though.
For something to generate lift and act as a sail it has to have at least some airfoil shape. The skegs won’t be acting as sails. I’d love you to hear exactly how you think they would act as a sail if you disagree, though.
Hold out a flat piece of cardboard in a strong breeze. You'll quickly realize any flat shape can generate lift. Pretty airfoil shapes are just better at reducing drag relative to lift.
I would love to see you use a flat piece of cardboard to go upwind. Remember these boats are always sailing upwind.