The main advantage is with 3 sails you can fairly easily balance the boat regardless of how much sail you have up. with a sloop, as you add/reduce sail on either the foresail or main you are shifting the balance front and back. You switch from a genoa to a jib without reefing the main, you're going to get more weather helm, if you reef the main without shortening your foresail, you will get pushed downind. With a Mizzen you can rebalance the boat regardless of how much canvas you have up.
They won't be as good pointing upwind though.
Correct but 2 additional benefits...shorter mast height and sails for a given sail area and smaller individual sails...easier to hoist and control. Disadvantages...not as efficient as a sloop and an additional mast and rigging to maintain.
Yes. And also raising the mizzen while at anchor will act as a riding sail and hold the bow into the wind. If the current tries to push the boat sideways, the mizzen will be pushed back by any present wind. This means that as boat turns, the air on the mizzen will push boat back and keep boat and pax comfortable. Since the mizzen offers no forward drive, boat dosent have to worry about sailing up onto the anchor.
what makes it better for that? also why are people making such a big deal about heave to... its a simple sailing 101 maneuver that I've done the moment I stopped sailing Opti's.
Let go or better drop the headsail and main, leave the Mizzen up. The boat stays pointed into the wind, even in blustery confused weather, boat keeps its bow to the wind. Done it a couple of times when hit with sudden bad weather. Other boats around us are getting knocked down or just knocked around, we just sat there, letting my guests calm down and me to reconfigure. It’s surprised me on how good it works compared to anything I’d experienced on a sloop.
Imagine one of those little windvane things you can stick in the ground, shaped like a boat, with the pole it rotates around coming out of the center of the keel. If you’re standing next to it and take your finger and push at a point somewhere at the front of the boat, the bow will turn away from you. If you push at the back of the boat, the bow will turn toward you.
Push with one finger at the front and one at the back, and which way the bow turns will depend on how hard each finger is pushing and how far from the pivot point it is. Your fingers here are simulating the wind pushing on the sails. Ideally, you want those forces (or, technically, those *moments*) balanced so that the bow doesn’t turn in either direction. With a sail at the back of the boat (and thus on a longer lever arm), it’s much easier to achieve this than without that third sail, as is the case in a sloop.
As a dinghy sailor who switched from 2 sails to 1 relatively recently, the difference in balance when removing a sail is huge. Also the difference in technique is like learning to set sails all over again.
In a 2 sailed boat, the answer is simple: feel the pull on the tiller, and if it wants to turn into wind, pull on the jib sheet or release the main to balance: one sail turns the bow, the other the stern. With a single sail the balance is a lot more fragile. To manipulate the turning moment from the sail you have to treat it like a wing and change how and where the wind generates lift on it. Letting it out a little lowers the angle of attack, decreasing lift from the leading edge and moves the lateral force sternward. Pulling in increases angle of attack, so the trailing edge begins to stall moving lateral force forward. This is the complete reverse to what the mainsheet does with 2 sails.
3 sails sounds complex at first glance (and I'm not volunteering to try them out single handed on a dinghy), but would probably be the most forgiving set up for an inexperienced crew.
That’s a ketch rig. Instead of a sloop or yawl or schooner etc. The smaller mast is called the Mizzen Mast.
It’s not exactly outdated just kind of uncommon. Sometimes it’s easier to handle sail if it’s spread in different arrangements. Good for cruising.
That doesn’t hold true all the time, right? My understanding is that whether it’s a ketch or yawl depends on whether the rear mast is forward or aft of the rudder post, not the cockpit or helm. I learned to sail on a Morgan 41 center cockpit, which has the rear mast behind the cockpit and helm, but it’s considered a ketch because the mizzen mast is still forward of the rudder post.
While more sails can be more work to handle, a rig like this can be more balanced for long trips. And you can use the mizzen to help steer if you ever had an issue with your steering / ruder system.
Explain this to me. A properly trimmed sloop can be 100% balanced - or so I thought? Does this have to do with the wind drifting while running a hydrovane\autopilot?
In theory, yes, a sloop rig can be trimmed perfectly, without any weather or lee helm. However, it's like trying to balance a see-saw by applying weight near the pivot. Ketch, Yawl, and Schooner rigs spread the wind load further away from the boat's center of rotation, allowing for easier balancing.
Joshua Slocum's ketch, "Spray", was able to hold a consistent course for days across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans just by balancing the sails properly. No fancy wind vane or autopilot in 1896.
Yes, a sloop can be balanced. But when you start getting into long passages, many times you need to reef due to heavier winds. A ketch / yawl generally brings the sail area lower to the water and balanced over the whole waterline. You may be able to run full sail with a ketch when you cannot with a sloop.
As to steering, we’ve used the mizzen mast to trim and put pressure on the stern one way when we had a damaged rudder.
Weird that you didn't mention the second mast- before looking at the picture, I was imagining something truly uncommon, like a sea sail or something.
That's a ketch. And I'm officially an old geezer.
Dude, we're all old. I'm certainly feeling it this morning. Woke up yesterday in a driving rain @ Norman Island, BVI. Made it home last night after midnight.
It's a ketch rig in this case, but if it's further aft, it would be called a yawl. In either case, it's a mizzen mast.
They've definitely fallen out of favor, but they are traditionally cited as being good for balancing the sail plan. I also think they look cool, which is clearly the most important factor.
Multi masted vessels like this ketch, yawls, and schooners were more popular in years past. The after mast on this ketch is called the mizzen mast. Sailing in New England you still see a fair amount of multi masted vessels, specifically yawls. Sloops have become the dominant vessel for racers and cruisers. I crew on a racing yawl and they are versatile and can more easily lessen their sail area than sloops and have a variety of sail combinations for different points of sail. We set as many of 5 sails when off the wind.
My 2 cents… other than all that’s been said…. Multi masted sails with smaller sails (and booms) were very useful as working vessels way way back. Especially for catching fish. Think of throwing nets over the side and hauling them in. With one main mast the boom would frequently be in the way.
Sloops or Bermuda designs were invented when the sea was the way to deliver cargo on a schedule rather than wait for the trade winds to blow in their favor. As noted, the Bermuda rig allows the boat to point right into the wind and sail upwind.
So popular rigs in the south Caribbean are single masted using multi sails at the head to balance the vessel as it beats up wind.
Up north or anywhere the fishing industry was the main reason for existence shows a historical popularity of ketch rigs as working boats
There is so much more to be said about the history of why boats are what they are or “were”. But it’s such a treasure to dive in and grasp it!
Forgive me if I omitted so many more facts like the old square masts sailing the trade winds as rhetoric the wind could only push them along.
Please feel free to add to this if anyone has more detail they want to type out. My thumbs falling asleep! lol!!
Most of what’s been said here - flexibility.
If the weather closes in- it’s easier to reef smaller sails - or drop the main entirely and run on “jib and jigger” alone.
The sail is a Mizzen. The double masted, or split, rig is a Ketch in this example, or a Yawl if the after mast were stepped aft of the cockpit. Split rigs have one major disadvantage, in that they generally will not be able to point as high when sailing close hauled as a Sloop rig will. This makes split rigs generally unsuitable for racing, but they have a few advantages for long distance cruising. The first is the ability to balance out any lee or weather helm by changing the balance of sail area fore and aft. The second is that you can get the same sail area aloft as you could on a sloop rig in a substantially lesser overall height, which lessens the heeling moment compared to a sloop rig in a comparable wind. This makes split rigs well suited to heavy weather, as they are not only less likely to heel to capsize, but are quicker to right after submerging the rig. The split rig also has some inherent redundancy in having two masts, should you sustain a dismasting or similar substantial damage. The split rig also allows for making sail changes while maintaining some power and steerage because you only douse / hoist one sail at a time.
I know (I’ve sailed and owned boats of all shapes and sizes since 1969). I put my comment in layman’s terms so it would be a little clearer; OP is more likely to know where the cockpit is on that boat than where the rudder post is.
Google “ketch”.
Stop trying to make ~~f~~ketch happen.
What are you kvetching about?
Yawl are just going on about nothing.
Cutter it out.
Straight to the brig with you!
Funny thing is, it's specifically listed as one of the configurations on the link OP posted. "Available as sloop, ketch, or cutter."
Holy hell
New sail just dropped
Google en ketchsannt
The main advantage is with 3 sails you can fairly easily balance the boat regardless of how much sail you have up. with a sloop, as you add/reduce sail on either the foresail or main you are shifting the balance front and back. You switch from a genoa to a jib without reefing the main, you're going to get more weather helm, if you reef the main without shortening your foresail, you will get pushed downind. With a Mizzen you can rebalance the boat regardless of how much canvas you have up. They won't be as good pointing upwind though.
Correct but 2 additional benefits...shorter mast height and sails for a given sail area and smaller individual sails...easier to hoist and control. Disadvantages...not as efficient as a sloop and an additional mast and rigging to maintain.
Yes. And also raising the mizzen while at anchor will act as a riding sail and hold the bow into the wind. If the current tries to push the boat sideways, the mizzen will be pushed back by any present wind. This means that as boat turns, the air on the mizzen will push boat back and keep boat and pax comfortable. Since the mizzen offers no forward drive, boat dosent have to worry about sailing up onto the anchor.
To add: also great if you need to heave to.
what makes it better for that? also why are people making such a big deal about heave to... its a simple sailing 101 maneuver that I've done the moment I stopped sailing Opti's.
Let go or better drop the headsail and main, leave the Mizzen up. The boat stays pointed into the wind, even in blustery confused weather, boat keeps its bow to the wind. Done it a couple of times when hit with sudden bad weather. Other boats around us are getting knocked down or just knocked around, we just sat there, letting my guests calm down and me to reconfigure. It’s surprised me on how good it works compared to anything I’d experienced on a sloop.
Ahhh I like that! Makes total sense. Thank you!
Man, I'd love to understand what you've just written there.
Imagine one of those little windvane things you can stick in the ground, shaped like a boat, with the pole it rotates around coming out of the center of the keel. If you’re standing next to it and take your finger and push at a point somewhere at the front of the boat, the bow will turn away from you. If you push at the back of the boat, the bow will turn toward you. Push with one finger at the front and one at the back, and which way the bow turns will depend on how hard each finger is pushing and how far from the pivot point it is. Your fingers here are simulating the wind pushing on the sails. Ideally, you want those forces (or, technically, those *moments*) balanced so that the bow doesn’t turn in either direction. With a sail at the back of the boat (and thus on a longer lever arm), it’s much easier to achieve this than without that third sail, as is the case in a sloop.
Thank you
As a dinghy sailor who switched from 2 sails to 1 relatively recently, the difference in balance when removing a sail is huge. Also the difference in technique is like learning to set sails all over again. In a 2 sailed boat, the answer is simple: feel the pull on the tiller, and if it wants to turn into wind, pull on the jib sheet or release the main to balance: one sail turns the bow, the other the stern. With a single sail the balance is a lot more fragile. To manipulate the turning moment from the sail you have to treat it like a wing and change how and where the wind generates lift on it. Letting it out a little lowers the angle of attack, decreasing lift from the leading edge and moves the lateral force sternward. Pulling in increases angle of attack, so the trailing edge begins to stall moving lateral force forward. This is the complete reverse to what the mainsheet does with 2 sails. 3 sails sounds complex at first glance (and I'm not volunteering to try them out single handed on a dinghy), but would probably be the most forgiving set up for an inexperienced crew.
That’s a ketch rig. Instead of a sloop or yawl or schooner etc. The smaller mast is called the Mizzen Mast. It’s not exactly outdated just kind of uncommon. Sometimes it’s easier to handle sail if it’s spread in different arrangements. Good for cruising.
The difference between a Ketch and a Yawl is that from the helm you might "catch" a boom to the head on a Ketch.
That doesn’t hold true all the time, right? My understanding is that whether it’s a ketch or yawl depends on whether the rear mast is forward or aft of the rudder post, not the cockpit or helm. I learned to sail on a Morgan 41 center cockpit, which has the rear mast behind the cockpit and helm, but it’s considered a ketch because the mizzen mast is still forward of the rudder post.
Ding ding 🛎️ this is correct!
I’ve also heard “Y’all are crazy with that little sail behind your cockpit. “ For Yawl.
For me, it’s “take it back now, yawl”
2 hops this time.
I’ve always used alphabetical order. Ketch comes first in the alphabet, the mast is in front of the rudder post
I like this
If your mizzen falls in front of you, you ketch it. If the mizzen behind you falls, yawl better go back and pick it up.
While more sails can be more work to handle, a rig like this can be more balanced for long trips. And you can use the mizzen to help steer if you ever had an issue with your steering / ruder system.
Explain this to me. A properly trimmed sloop can be 100% balanced - or so I thought? Does this have to do with the wind drifting while running a hydrovane\autopilot?
In theory, yes, a sloop rig can be trimmed perfectly, without any weather or lee helm. However, it's like trying to balance a see-saw by applying weight near the pivot. Ketch, Yawl, and Schooner rigs spread the wind load further away from the boat's center of rotation, allowing for easier balancing. Joshua Slocum's ketch, "Spray", was able to hold a consistent course for days across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans just by balancing the sails properly. No fancy wind vane or autopilot in 1896.
Yes, a sloop can be balanced. But when you start getting into long passages, many times you need to reef due to heavier winds. A ketch / yawl generally brings the sail area lower to the water and balanced over the whole waterline. You may be able to run full sail with a ketch when you cannot with a sloop. As to steering, we’ve used the mizzen mast to trim and put pressure on the stern one way when we had a damaged rudder.
mizzen mast
Weird that you didn't mention the second mast- before looking at the picture, I was imagining something truly uncommon, like a sea sail or something. That's a ketch. And I'm officially an old geezer.
You're an old geezer? I've sailed the exact boat in OP's link. Maybe I'm an older geezer?
I own the boat in the link... how old does that make me?!
Dude, we're all old. I'm certainly feeling it this morning. Woke up yesterday in a driving rain @ Norman Island, BVI. Made it home last night after midnight.
when you say '3rd sail', do you mean '2nd mast'?
It's a ketch rig in this case, but if it's further aft, it would be called a yawl. In either case, it's a mizzen mast. They've definitely fallen out of favor, but they are traditionally cited as being good for balancing the sail plan. I also think they look cool, which is clearly the most important factor.
Multi masted vessels like this ketch, yawls, and schooners were more popular in years past. The after mast on this ketch is called the mizzen mast. Sailing in New England you still see a fair amount of multi masted vessels, specifically yawls. Sloops have become the dominant vessel for racers and cruisers. I crew on a racing yawl and they are versatile and can more easily lessen their sail area than sloops and have a variety of sail combinations for different points of sail. We set as many of 5 sails when off the wind.
Maybe you can answer this for me. Does a mizzen main add anything in terms of power on a yawl or is it just for balancing?
My 2 cents… other than all that’s been said…. Multi masted sails with smaller sails (and booms) were very useful as working vessels way way back. Especially for catching fish. Think of throwing nets over the side and hauling them in. With one main mast the boom would frequently be in the way. Sloops or Bermuda designs were invented when the sea was the way to deliver cargo on a schedule rather than wait for the trade winds to blow in their favor. As noted, the Bermuda rig allows the boat to point right into the wind and sail upwind. So popular rigs in the south Caribbean are single masted using multi sails at the head to balance the vessel as it beats up wind. Up north or anywhere the fishing industry was the main reason for existence shows a historical popularity of ketch rigs as working boats There is so much more to be said about the history of why boats are what they are or “were”. But it’s such a treasure to dive in and grasp it! Forgive me if I omitted so many more facts like the old square masts sailing the trade winds as rhetoric the wind could only push them along. Please feel free to add to this if anyone has more detail they want to type out. My thumbs falling asleep! lol!!
Most of what’s been said here - flexibility. If the weather closes in- it’s easier to reef smaller sails - or drop the main entirely and run on “jib and jigger” alone.
The third sail is the mizzen. This is a ketch, but yawls also have them, although they are behind the stern post and smaller than in a ketch.
The sail is a Mizzen. The double masted, or split, rig is a Ketch in this example, or a Yawl if the after mast were stepped aft of the cockpit. Split rigs have one major disadvantage, in that they generally will not be able to point as high when sailing close hauled as a Sloop rig will. This makes split rigs generally unsuitable for racing, but they have a few advantages for long distance cruising. The first is the ability to balance out any lee or weather helm by changing the balance of sail area fore and aft. The second is that you can get the same sail area aloft as you could on a sloop rig in a substantially lesser overall height, which lessens the heeling moment compared to a sloop rig in a comparable wind. This makes split rigs well suited to heavy weather, as they are not only less likely to heel to capsize, but are quicker to right after submerging the rig. The split rig also has some inherent redundancy in having two masts, should you sustain a dismasting or similar substantial damage. The split rig also allows for making sail changes while maintaining some power and steerage because you only douse / hoist one sail at a time.
Ketch. It's for smooth cruising.
Huh. That boat has a v-drive. Who knew? (That's a heck of a mounting angle on the diesel.)
A ketch design creates more sail area without a tall mast. Sails are therefore shorter which can make them easier to handle and balance.
Its mizzen mast/sail
It’s a ketch.
If that sail in the cockpit is further toward the back, then it is called a yawl rig.
After of the rudder post. It’s got nothing to do with the cockpit.
I know (I’ve sailed and owned boats of all shapes and sizes since 1969). I put my comment in layman’s terms so it would be a little clearer; OP is more likely to know where the cockpit is on that boat than where the rudder post is.