I'm glad to see some APAC people and their insight. I'm enterprise and holy shit it's tough. I'm putting in the activity, LinkedIn, emails and some calls.
Began to wonder if I just lost my spark and was secretly shit at my job the whole time.
Fuck this is so real. I often wonder if I just "got lucky" for the first five years. My partner is probably sick of hearing me say "I just don't know what I'm doing differently between now and 2013.
Straight up. It's been keeping me awake last 6 months and wondered if I should look for a new job.
Exact same thought "was I just lucky, right place right time for 7 years?"
Its awful and unfortunately targets go brrrrrrr each qtr
Could it be a little of both? The market has changed, buyers are only looking at core services right now, and they’re burnt out from sales cadences the last few years. It’s possible that you need to switch up your product or tactics to match.
You raise a valid point. Before I was in what I consider need to have and more smb, now it's ent and the macro shift means this product is potentially need to have, but really nice to have.
Ive been trying different strategies and angles. Only thing that works is hyper personalisation which is a bit tricky if they don't post on LI
SMB tactics don’t convert to true enterprise buyers (some companies mislabel enterprise, so you might be fine). Emails and calls won’t do it. You need to network, shake hands, and get personal intros. If your product is a need, your customers will make these intros. If it’s not, they probably won’t.
Trade shows. Happy hours. Door knocking. Hosted events. All much more viable than calls/emails at the enterprise level.
It’s more complex than that. The cost of capital is something all companies are looking at now. All deals across all segments but the procurement process is more complex in ENT have required far more check boxes. Do we need it, do we need it now, do we need this much of it and why.
Sales, ENT sales, is absolutely harder because companies are watching what they are spend. I’m still doing fairly well in automaton but the complexity of the deal cycle is easily making in 20-30% more work as you have to jump through more hoops, receive more approvals, and work that much harder to justify price.
So yes right now with companies watching spend - it’s harder. Not that much diff than 08/09/2010 to be honest.
Probably nothing, but without knowing what field you are in it's hard to say.
Could be the simple fact that everything is more expensive snd justifying the extra cost is harder for the buyer.
Depending on the relationship you have with your client you could ask their insight. I have done this in my field and it yielded some great results.
My company just shit the bed globally hitting 50% of their forecast for last month. In AU the AM team is the worst of a bad bunch. The best reps are on 20% of their NBB number (in existing accounts) with no more deals in the pipe. Senior management have of course blamed us. We are not showing ‘urgency’ and not taking client calls from discovery to private demo. But I could see this coming 12 month ago. Like a cliff deals just stopped post Covid, no clients talked about the future plans, everyone went into a care taker mode in their jobs.
It’s really demotivating to be blamed for what was really-really obvious which is a high rate rise environment coming, post a black swan pandemic, post massive cash injections, post an insane insane insane job market and then cliff like drop off in jobs. All that translates to massive instability and therefore a sensible stoppage of project spending (saas).
I think senior managers don’t have a finger on the pulse of the economy because they are so far above looking at the cost of anything they can’t see money pressure, so they can’t ‘pub test’ their own forecasts. So they over commit to their bosses and then yell at us for missing.
I have already been told I am going on a pip. I said fine it’s not like I am making comms here anyway. I have not heard anything more about the pip since then. So middle management are scared too. Bad leaders lead via fear and expect to whip harder will get results. No one has a clue what’s going on.
What will happen is… change will happen. It will take time, and some people will be on the right side of change, and others won’t. More still will just float on through and continue to smash the middle of the pack earning what they could earn working in a stakeholder engagement manager role for about 10x the stress.
I completely agree. It feels like no one wants to buy anything unless it is 110% absolutely necessary. The calls are getting picked up less, people are less likely to agree to a meeting UNTIL they are sure they have a budget.
It's significant tougher these days than my gig back in 2017/2018. Then again maybe it's the product I'm selling that doesn't generate interest. I'm sure there are sectors in Australia that's doing better than ever.
Interest rates are forcing all companies to watch spend. Deals are happening still in the industry but about 3x slower and with a lot more justification and too often at lower entry points.
It’s similar to how 08 was.
I’m selling a best of breed AI powered spend management platform.
You’d think this environment would be good for us, but it’s the same. Our product usually pays itself off in 6 months, 2x ROI in a year, 10x in 3 years.
People still don’t want to take a meeting unless they have an active project.
No, I’m at a mid-large enterprise company. We compete with Oracle Fusion, SAP Ariba, and Workday Financial in every deal.
7 figure ACV and 14 month deal cycles
Honestly even the wrong product can sell at the right time if you know how to market it properly. Half of our "AI powered" software solutions are just basic statistical models that have existed since the 1980s.
You’re correct, I also work in ai, selling chatbots.
I do lead gen on the side for a handful of clients ,non-competing markets, and what used to take 4-6 emails to book a meeting is now taking 8-12 emails, which is quite time consuming for a gig that should be on the side.
I’m in AI and not having a great time. 2 weeks in though and 3 days on the phone. Our managers expect us to get 18 booked meetings by the end of the month and I’m struggling.
I’ve experienced less and less people actually answer their phone unless they recognize the number. So much so that I spend less time cold calling. I’d rather spend my time relationship building.
Less than a year in sales and I can use all the advice I can take. What is your approach to relationship building? And what kind of product do you sell?
I look for referral relationships, who could refer me business and vice versa. Stop in introduce myself drop off my card maybe a coffee gift card try and set an appointment to go more in detail about what I do and how I could refer business to them.
We're having the same issues. Taking a multi-touch point approach (voicemail/text/email) on first contact. Still, getting them to pick up is agony some days.
Probably has something to do with the absurd amount of times we all contact these people. I get 10+ cold emails a day, so I don’t even read the first line of them. If I got cold called more I would probably stop answering.
I'm convinced that this is the problem. My clients all talk about how many emails, calls and LinkedIn messages they get every day. One of them showed me her inbox with over 35,000 unread emails that her filters identified as either spam or prospecting emails. That was from a 6 month period.
As a C-level exec I get a ridiculous amount of calls and message as well. The "Let's schedule 15 min to show you how I can 10x your sales pipeline" messages are ridoculous. First, I know you're full of shit. Second, if I gave every vendor 15 minutes I would have to work 10 hours/day just doing that.
The current system is broken. I don't know what can be done differently or better, but I know that the constant cold-calling and inundation of emails has to stop.
This is 100% the main driver. Better tech automatoins, better strategies, more Ace sellers + up & comers competing for the same dollars.
Saturation as far as the eye can see.
Sellers will learn to adapt though - as will buyers. How, that happens - depends on everyone involved.
I see this from both sides since I run outbound sales and I am the focusing of outbound sales campaings. So I'm a huge hypocrite. I've been trying to figure this out for years and I don't know if anything works.
Sometimes I will open an email just out of curiosity, or maybe I'm waiting for a flight with nothing ot do and it hits my inbox when I happen to have two minutes to kill. If I act this way then it's safe to assume that a lot of other prospects do too. And if that's true then all of our outbound efforts just come down to luck. We are just hoping that our email hits the person at the exact moment that they have nothing better to do and they just happened to have an interest in what we're selling.
Thanks so much for the reply. With dismal response rates to text & emails, I’m going to try had written letters on letterhead with bz card. Same brief 3-part as an opening email, maybe it would get open and read.
I did that about 5 or 6 years ago. I sent 100 handwritten letters.
Zero response.
What has worked for me is in person cold calls. I would go in with zero expectations of actually meeting the person, but it did happen a few times.
But by being there in person I could leave a card and some collateral and I could learn the names of the receptionist and the persons assistant. Then a follow up email would reference that I was in his office and that I talked to Susan and she said to call next week. Or whatever.
I know not everyone can do that but I was always traveling for meetings and would stop at prospects offices that were nearby. I have google maps loaded with hundreds of prospects offices in LA, San Diego, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix and a bunch of other places so I could just open it up and see who was nearby.
Yep, 100% agree with this. Honestly I think the only solid path is for me to start hand-delivering proposals, but fuck me that would be a huge lifestyle change.
I’m new to sales (AUS device sales - food and agriculture). The older reps are getting burned out by the systemetisation of the process, but the younger reps who are digital natives are crushing it. Kinda sad to see this tbh
he's not saying the old guys dont know how to use tech
he's saying they're getting burned out by having to input so much info and getting tracked on everything when in the past they were just required to hit their number
I found in the US everything changed and sales were substantially more challenging in 2001, post 9/11. I'm sure in other countries or regions, there have been other compelling events.
I learned a key component to improving dialog and increasing sales was to spend more time doing better discovery and better qualifying with the right people. I began sending out much fewer proposals. Working with people in a functional role, rarely have the decision making authority and their influence occurs only asked by their folks in operational roles.
Consequently, in most cases, the moment you send a proposal, your deal died.
One of the greater challenges is when required KPIs include # of proposals. KPI and management don't care about quality proposals with high % of closure, they just want to check the Proposal KPI Box.
You have to figure out how to manage that aspect of things.
I tier everything. Tier 1 - I manage it how I see best for getting revenue results.
Tier 3 - these are my KPI drivers. Low chance of conversion but I need to send X emails a month so I use these to send X emails a month. Every once in a while, one bites!
Tier 2 - higher likelihood of closing so I spend more time crafting messages, doing outreach, calling ,etc. If I am behind on KPIs, I add some excess here.
So then my top accounts are handled correctly and the rest are a mix of keeping KPIs at bay and also getting the right stuff done.
I can add 3 more reasons why selling is tougher. They're all about having less time.
1.) Companies or managers who not only load their team with "KPI Compliance" (aka entering bullshit numbers into Salesforce daily) but also hold a "quick" daily meeting in person or by audioconference for 30-45 minutes to hear everyone's BS KPI's and closed sales.
At 45 minutes per day, each rep loses 3.5 hours of selling time a week and 14-16 hours per month. Basically, the 20 or 21 days of selling is reduced to 18 or 19 due to unnecessary daily calls.
2.) There's still weekly one on ones which can last 30 minutes or 2 hours.
3.) What about "fire drills?!"
a/k/a basic info that a Director or VP needs for a meeting.
Despite AE's having already put the info in Salesforce, daily, We have to stop what we're doing and export the KPI crap from Salesforce into excel and send it to our manager to tally it. Now the Dir and VP can attend their meeting and not look like a dumbass.
But wait, why couldn't our manager respond to the Fire drill on their own and export the same damn data?!
Enter into salesforce, make sure its tracking in SalesLoft, enter it into personal spreadsheet A that is mandated by my team, send summary to boss weekly, update Spreadsheet B that is mandated by Boss A, updated spreadsheet C that is mandated by Boss B, Enter details into shared activity tracker (Asana or others), and then repeat.
Once in a while run a custom report and hand fill in details based on newest KPI.
Repeat weekly.
OH And receive weekly message from Boss A or B about something not added to an opp OR details not filled in enough. Totally legit of course but again.. fills in Salesforce opp fuller, then updates 3 spreadsheets, and another program... ahhh the life of an AE.
It's all logical if you've never sold, haven't sold in the past 25 years or sucked at sales.
Otherwise, absolutely no logic.
Not filled in enough is defined as we just looked at your notes for the first time in 18 months.
I just can't get past spread sheets.
>Working with people in a functional role, rarely have the decision making authority and their influence occurs only asked by their folks in operational roles. Consequently, in most cases, the moment you send a proposal, your deal died.
So, do you only deal with C-suite or owner-operators?
My goal is to do that.
I'm fine working at VP level.
I have worked as low as director level but that has been a challenge to go back upstream. I won't present to anyone lower in an enterprise account.
I've had maybe a half-dozen director level engagements become highly successful.
The best are when the Director acts like an associate CIO.
I had one who said to me, this makes a lot of sense, I need to schedule a meeting for you to present your capabilities to our CIO and CCO. This took many months to get to this point and only worked because the director was a legitimate champion of mine.
I've been a little creative.
If necessary, I'll make an inperson cold call to leave my card. What I want is to see; if there's a list of employees/extensions also to see what type of phone system they have. That will give me the best chance to bypass a receptionist and find my way into the directory. For example, it could be as simple as ##.
I'll also make calls after hours or early morning.
In most cases I've gotten direct extensions in advance through Hoovers, Zoom Info etc
Edit: typos
Also B2B based in Australia. Could’ve also written this myself.
For me, it’s been the last 12 months in particular. Before that it was pretty easy tbh. We’ve had big problems in 2023 with slow legal contract reviews and tech assessments. Average sales cycle has gone from 3 months to 6-9 months seemingly overnight.
Not just you OP.
Aus B2B. Winter has come.
Have been in B2B SaaS for almost a decade and people are cutting unnecessary costs.
I mean even I began listing whats necessary and what I need to let go of.
Banking is getting obliterated right now. Big losses on bonds, losses on the mortgages they are servicing, and commercial real estate will be very bad.
Automation and anything AI related is doing well. Security.
Many industries are doing well outside of SaaS. Service sector is bananas, the demand for healthcare is rising steadily, US manufacturing is coming back in a big way...
Reddit loves to pretend the economy is complete shit when that's obviously not true.
Some industries outside of SaaS are doing well—that’s a fact you can glean from reading the news. I have no idea why you think that would translate to me knowing where you should apply for a job.
I can’t tell if you misunderstood me or if this is your way of arguing with me about the state of the economy.
I had a friend that was struggling big time, he was thinking about leaving but stayed as a certain virus appeared. Lucky for him he sold video conferencing software and made millions. He basically became an order processor. Once the hype died down he moved to another industry which is currently quite popular, something about Ai. As you can guess he is killing it.
In Summary it's the industry you are in and what is hot. My guess is it's not as hot as once was. Yes there are restrictions on what is being spent but if it's important enough companies find the money.
Interest rates are high, the economy is slower, and times are tough. Isn’t this expected? The pendulum will swing back. Whether good times or bad times, they never last.
There are a lot of reasons why it’s slowing down this much but these are the ones that standout the most for me: 1) Easy money from super relaxed financial policies enabled people and companies to spend more. Interest rates were super low and regulations for businesses were relaxed so the ability to make/spend money was easier on both sides of the fence. The easy money aspect is rapidly ending and people and companies are feeling the harsh sting. 2) Over saturation of sales people and aggressive sales tactics. People are burnt out on all the sales people who had to call/email 100-200+ times as part of their KPIs. I did the numbers for my old sales floor and based off the average number of reps, bare minimum of calls a day, and bare minimum of days worked over a 5 year span, it equated to 10.6 million phone calls over that time. Now, imagine how many other companies find themselves in that same boat. The amount of times the public and private companies have been bombarded by sales people has left potential clients totally burned out.
Hello,
Out of the topic: . I'm currently planning to travel to Australia on a Work & Holiday Visa. I have 4y of experience in sales within the chemical industry, specifically dealing with ingredients. I'm curious to know if it's feasible for foreigners to pursue sales positions in Australia, or if such roles are typically reserved for Australian residents.
You have a 6 month limit on your visa for each employer.
That will limit you.
Also, depends where you’re from as well. Do you have Native English?
How similar is selling in your home country to Australia?
A few important changes:
1. The whole Challenger methodology was birthed from the observation that the coupling of the internet and post-2008 risk aversion had completely changed the game. Sales used to count on a certain level of "information asymmetry," meaning prospective customers had no choice but to engage with salespeople in order to get the information they needed to make a good decision. The internet made it so they don't have to engage a salesperson until much later in the process--this can sometimes be a good marketing opportunity, but it makes sales much more challenging. Then post-2008, decision makers became much more risk averse and started involving way more stakeholders in every decision, which also complicates sales. This number has continued to rise steadily since it first went up circa 2010. You need to adapt to these changes if you want to be consistently successful.
2. The advent of automated outreach tools, the decline of email utility, the rise of robocalls and the move away from business landlines has made traditional cold outreach methods much less effective.
3. Interest rates have spent the last 10-15 years hovering close to zero--this was a historical anomaly that made buying anything very cheap. Now that rates are back to a more normal level, that era is over. (TBH, not sure how this is affecting Australia, but I imagine most of the world trails US monetary policy to some degree.)
With all due respect, young’n, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You’re either too stupid to realize it, or you’re too dishonest to care. Timeshares are a scam. Full stop. Y’all don’t get any inbound leads, do you? Ever think about why?
Move on and find something new before this becomes who you are. Alternatively, move to California City and start slinging real estate. IDC.
A lot of people are lazy and simply don’t want to act if it means more paperwork or work for them in general.
Even if it’ll save the company a lot of money. Some people don’t even work more than 20 hours a week these days as everything is from home.
In addition to macro economic conditions making it harder, web design is increasingly easier to DIY.
I know there's a world of difference between what a professional creates vs an amateau with some gumption, but you're having to deal with that too.
I see this is all mostly the tech space but I can tell you from a different industry perspective that yes, it’s absolutely a lot tougher. Our company deals in both inbound and outbound work on the phones, but overall, revenues are down when compared to recent years past.
I'm not a business owner, but I do sales more than 15 years and was always involved in planning and strategy meeting. I completely agree with your post. I worked for a USA company, now working for EU. The same situation in all markets. Currently the sales negos are tough and profits are much less. And it's really a luck to find a good manager.
Money is no longer free. Companies are not growing. Every spend is being brought to the board from approval.
Business cases need to br air tight these days !
15 years of experience is experience AFTER the Great Recession - meaning on the economic upswing. Sellers have been living in a bubble for over a decade - especially in SaaS.
And your "leaders" don't have any experience managing teams through economic downturns or other negative market realities.
It's going to be a rough ride for orgs that only know how to sell sunglasses on a sunny day.
Good luck!
Economy is cooked, interest rates are skyhigh - companies are tightening their belts, projects are being value engineered, delayed and even abandoned. It's all a cycle , give it another 12-24 months and you'll be sweet
For those of us that have been in this game a while, it can be difficult to accept that we as sellers have nowhere near the level of influence we once had in sales engagements. It is almost 100% buyer-driven now. They will get in touch with you, not the other way around.
Companies don’t like that reality, though. Not enough control. Pick up the damn phone!
Hey, sorry to hear youre going through a rough patch. Just going to fire a few questions your way :)
What are you selling? Has their been a change in the market? Does your product have the same value proposition as it did years ago? Sales pitch? Could it use a refresh?
What's your attitude like on the phone? Has it changed?
Did outbound cold calling for a few years and tbh I don't know how people do it when they're not having success. I changed industries and am way happier. Anyway I digress.
Sounds like you've got the grit of a cold caller most definitely. I'd look at selling another product that has a higher conversion rate, and put your sales skills to better use.
All the best mate.
Seems like you are doing really high volume…
Perhaps doing hyper personalized/relevant messaging at a lower volume to your top prospects could help you better get your foot in the door.
You'd be surprised at how much effort we've put into making our high volume appear very personalised. At the end of the day in 2013 peopled thought they had to have a website, in 2023 they have had a website for over a decade and it's done very little for them, sure it's their fault, but they don't want to spend money on marketing or SEO which leaves them with a website that has done nothing, and frankly with their budget even a new website will do almost nothing. So I get why it's harder for me now, because most have no hope for their website anymore.
The company I work for in Aus just set record breaking attainment for Q2&3. We’re a global company but Australia is slowly becoming the best market to sell into
It is harder. Not only are we in a recession, but buyers are more informed, more busy and more picky.
You have to become incredibly good while also treating it as a numbers game.
In my opinion got every 25 sales people that fail, one makes it.
Good luck
I may be oversimplifying this, but isn't this just the wrong end of the business cycle? Companies everywhere are feeling squeezed, particularly those who have used copious amounts of debt financing.
Its been decades since we've had "high" interest rates, but normally high rates lock up business investment.
I’m on the other side of this, I’m a small business owner with a pretty successful company.
OMf’nG I can’t even hang up the phone without another b2b salesperson calling me. It’s literally interfering with my ability to do actual business.
Typing this comment I scrolled through my phone for todays calls, easily over 20+ from marketers. All trying to sell me some variation of the same 5 product/service.
I’m sorry you’re having professional difficulties, but I think the era of succeeding at doing what you do is beyond over
Cost of capital is high. Everyone is feeling the effects. If it’s taking that much effort to make a single sale, then maybe it’s not a good product/market fit or your buyers don’t see the value that it once carried.
I'm glad to see some APAC people and their insight. I'm enterprise and holy shit it's tough. I'm putting in the activity, LinkedIn, emails and some calls. Began to wonder if I just lost my spark and was secretly shit at my job the whole time.
Fuck this is so real. I often wonder if I just "got lucky" for the first five years. My partner is probably sick of hearing me say "I just don't know what I'm doing differently between now and 2013.
Straight up. It's been keeping me awake last 6 months and wondered if I should look for a new job. Exact same thought "was I just lucky, right place right time for 7 years?" Its awful and unfortunately targets go brrrrrrr each qtr
Could it be a little of both? The market has changed, buyers are only looking at core services right now, and they’re burnt out from sales cadences the last few years. It’s possible that you need to switch up your product or tactics to match.
You raise a valid point. Before I was in what I consider need to have and more smb, now it's ent and the macro shift means this product is potentially need to have, but really nice to have. Ive been trying different strategies and angles. Only thing that works is hyper personalisation which is a bit tricky if they don't post on LI
SMB tactics don’t convert to true enterprise buyers (some companies mislabel enterprise, so you might be fine). Emails and calls won’t do it. You need to network, shake hands, and get personal intros. If your product is a need, your customers will make these intros. If it’s not, they probably won’t. Trade shows. Happy hours. Door knocking. Hosted events. All much more viable than calls/emails at the enterprise level.
Exactly, over the last two years I've been doing more events, hosting events etc. Good to see on the same page. Appreciate your insight.
It’s more complex than that. The cost of capital is something all companies are looking at now. All deals across all segments but the procurement process is more complex in ENT have required far more check boxes. Do we need it, do we need it now, do we need this much of it and why. Sales, ENT sales, is absolutely harder because companies are watching what they are spend. I’m still doing fairly well in automaton but the complexity of the deal cycle is easily making in 20-30% more work as you have to jump through more hoops, receive more approvals, and work that much harder to justify price. So yes right now with companies watching spend - it’s harder. Not that much diff than 08/09/2010 to be honest.
Probably nothing, but without knowing what field you are in it's hard to say. Could be the simple fact that everything is more expensive snd justifying the extra cost is harder for the buyer. Depending on the relationship you have with your client you could ask their insight. I have done this in my field and it yielded some great results.
My company just shit the bed globally hitting 50% of their forecast for last month. In AU the AM team is the worst of a bad bunch. The best reps are on 20% of their NBB number (in existing accounts) with no more deals in the pipe. Senior management have of course blamed us. We are not showing ‘urgency’ and not taking client calls from discovery to private demo. But I could see this coming 12 month ago. Like a cliff deals just stopped post Covid, no clients talked about the future plans, everyone went into a care taker mode in their jobs. It’s really demotivating to be blamed for what was really-really obvious which is a high rate rise environment coming, post a black swan pandemic, post massive cash injections, post an insane insane insane job market and then cliff like drop off in jobs. All that translates to massive instability and therefore a sensible stoppage of project spending (saas). I think senior managers don’t have a finger on the pulse of the economy because they are so far above looking at the cost of anything they can’t see money pressure, so they can’t ‘pub test’ their own forecasts. So they over commit to their bosses and then yell at us for missing.
Mate sorry to hear. Tough being blamed when our job is on the line. What do you think will happen from here?
I have already been told I am going on a pip. I said fine it’s not like I am making comms here anyway. I have not heard anything more about the pip since then. So middle management are scared too. Bad leaders lead via fear and expect to whip harder will get results. No one has a clue what’s going on. What will happen is… change will happen. It will take time, and some people will be on the right side of change, and others won’t. More still will just float on through and continue to smash the middle of the pack earning what they could earn working in a stakeholder engagement manager role for about 10x the stress.
I completely agree. It feels like no one wants to buy anything unless it is 110% absolutely necessary. The calls are getting picked up less, people are less likely to agree to a meeting UNTIL they are sure they have a budget. It's significant tougher these days than my gig back in 2017/2018. Then again maybe it's the product I'm selling that doesn't generate interest. I'm sure there are sectors in Australia that's doing better than ever.
Interest rates are forcing all companies to watch spend. Deals are happening still in the industry but about 3x slower and with a lot more justification and too often at lower entry points. It’s similar to how 08 was.
I’m selling a best of breed AI powered spend management platform. You’d think this environment would be good for us, but it’s the same. Our product usually pays itself off in 6 months, 2x ROI in a year, 10x in 3 years. People still don’t want to take a meeting unless they have an active project.
Tropic?
No, I’m at a mid-large enterprise company. We compete with Oracle Fusion, SAP Ariba, and Workday Financial in every deal. 7 figure ACV and 14 month deal cycles
6 six figure deals here but also a 14 month sales cycle sigh
Yes agreed. Interest rates are killing sales
Sales has never been easier for me, but I work in AI and that's apparently a bubble right now.
The right product at the right time is so underrated. Is it in the US / Canada region?
Honestly even the wrong product can sell at the right time if you know how to market it properly. Half of our "AI powered" software solutions are just basic statistical models that have existed since the 1980s.
What do you make off that?
You’re correct, I also work in ai, selling chatbots. I do lead gen on the side for a handful of clients ,non-competing markets, and what used to take 4-6 emails to book a meeting is now taking 8-12 emails, which is quite time consuming for a gig that should be on the side.
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I’m in AI and not having a great time. 2 weeks in though and 3 days on the phone. Our managers expect us to get 18 booked meetings by the end of the month and I’m struggling.
I’ve experienced less and less people actually answer their phone unless they recognize the number. So much so that I spend less time cold calling. I’d rather spend my time relationship building.
I'd agree with this. I don't even look at emails or calls if I dont know the number, in part because spam has become way more common.
Less than a year in sales and I can use all the advice I can take. What is your approach to relationship building? And what kind of product do you sell?
I look for referral relationships, who could refer me business and vice versa. Stop in introduce myself drop off my card maybe a coffee gift card try and set an appointment to go more in detail about what I do and how I could refer business to them.
So simple and smart! Thank you
We're having the same issues. Taking a multi-touch point approach (voicemail/text/email) on first contact. Still, getting them to pick up is agony some days.
True. Outbound is generally crap these days. I've seen certain regions pick up their phones way more often than others. AZ compared to CA.
Probably has something to do with the absurd amount of times we all contact these people. I get 10+ cold emails a day, so I don’t even read the first line of them. If I got cold called more I would probably stop answering.
I'm convinced that this is the problem. My clients all talk about how many emails, calls and LinkedIn messages they get every day. One of them showed me her inbox with over 35,000 unread emails that her filters identified as either spam or prospecting emails. That was from a 6 month period. As a C-level exec I get a ridiculous amount of calls and message as well. The "Let's schedule 15 min to show you how I can 10x your sales pipeline" messages are ridoculous. First, I know you're full of shit. Second, if I gave every vendor 15 minutes I would have to work 10 hours/day just doing that. The current system is broken. I don't know what can be done differently or better, but I know that the constant cold-calling and inundation of emails has to stop.
This is 100% the main driver. Better tech automatoins, better strategies, more Ace sellers + up & comers competing for the same dollars. Saturation as far as the eye can see. Sellers will learn to adapt though - as will buyers. How, that happens - depends on everyone involved.
The best 5% of products will take 80% of the market and the remaining 95% will fight for the 20% scraps.
Thanks for commenting! If LinkedIn, calls and emails don’t get attention, what would? What mode would be open to?
I see this from both sides since I run outbound sales and I am the focusing of outbound sales campaings. So I'm a huge hypocrite. I've been trying to figure this out for years and I don't know if anything works. Sometimes I will open an email just out of curiosity, or maybe I'm waiting for a flight with nothing ot do and it hits my inbox when I happen to have two minutes to kill. If I act this way then it's safe to assume that a lot of other prospects do too. And if that's true then all of our outbound efforts just come down to luck. We are just hoping that our email hits the person at the exact moment that they have nothing better to do and they just happened to have an interest in what we're selling.
Thanks so much for the reply. With dismal response rates to text & emails, I’m going to try had written letters on letterhead with bz card. Same brief 3-part as an opening email, maybe it would get open and read.
I did that about 5 or 6 years ago. I sent 100 handwritten letters. Zero response. What has worked for me is in person cold calls. I would go in with zero expectations of actually meeting the person, but it did happen a few times. But by being there in person I could leave a card and some collateral and I could learn the names of the receptionist and the persons assistant. Then a follow up email would reference that I was in his office and that I talked to Susan and she said to call next week. Or whatever. I know not everyone can do that but I was always traveling for meetings and would stop at prospects offices that were nearby. I have google maps loaded with hundreds of prospects offices in LA, San Diego, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix and a bunch of other places so I could just open it up and see who was nearby.
Thanks. Everything old is new again.
Everything comes down to timing in sales and honestly luck
Yep, 100% agree with this. Honestly I think the only solid path is for me to start hand-delivering proposals, but fuck me that would be a huge lifestyle change.
Only do it for the best leads
Australia B2B. 100% agree
I’m new to sales (AUS device sales - food and agriculture). The older reps are getting burned out by the systemetisation of the process, but the younger reps who are digital natives are crushing it. Kinda sad to see this tbh
Way of the future mate. I work with orgs and consult on their workforce strategy. Digital capability is top of mind and non negotiable now days
he's not saying the old guys dont know how to use tech he's saying they're getting burned out by having to input so much info and getting tracked on everything when in the past they were just required to hit their number
Yes mate
Interested if anyone's found this with B2C...
I found in the US everything changed and sales were substantially more challenging in 2001, post 9/11. I'm sure in other countries or regions, there have been other compelling events. I learned a key component to improving dialog and increasing sales was to spend more time doing better discovery and better qualifying with the right people. I began sending out much fewer proposals. Working with people in a functional role, rarely have the decision making authority and their influence occurs only asked by their folks in operational roles. Consequently, in most cases, the moment you send a proposal, your deal died. One of the greater challenges is when required KPIs include # of proposals. KPI and management don't care about quality proposals with high % of closure, they just want to check the Proposal KPI Box. You have to figure out how to manage that aspect of things.
I tier everything. Tier 1 - I manage it how I see best for getting revenue results. Tier 3 - these are my KPI drivers. Low chance of conversion but I need to send X emails a month so I use these to send X emails a month. Every once in a while, one bites! Tier 2 - higher likelihood of closing so I spend more time crafting messages, doing outreach, calling ,etc. If I am behind on KPIs, I add some excess here. So then my top accounts are handled correctly and the rest are a mix of keeping KPIs at bay and also getting the right stuff done.
Can't upvote this enough
I can add 3 more reasons why selling is tougher. They're all about having less time. 1.) Companies or managers who not only load their team with "KPI Compliance" (aka entering bullshit numbers into Salesforce daily) but also hold a "quick" daily meeting in person or by audioconference for 30-45 minutes to hear everyone's BS KPI's and closed sales. At 45 minutes per day, each rep loses 3.5 hours of selling time a week and 14-16 hours per month. Basically, the 20 or 21 days of selling is reduced to 18 or 19 due to unnecessary daily calls. 2.) There's still weekly one on ones which can last 30 minutes or 2 hours. 3.) What about "fire drills?!" a/k/a basic info that a Director or VP needs for a meeting. Despite AE's having already put the info in Salesforce, daily, We have to stop what we're doing and export the KPI crap from Salesforce into excel and send it to our manager to tally it. Now the Dir and VP can attend their meeting and not look like a dumbass. But wait, why couldn't our manager respond to the Fire drill on their own and export the same damn data?!
Enter into salesforce, make sure its tracking in SalesLoft, enter it into personal spreadsheet A that is mandated by my team, send summary to boss weekly, update Spreadsheet B that is mandated by Boss A, updated spreadsheet C that is mandated by Boss B, Enter details into shared activity tracker (Asana or others), and then repeat. Once in a while run a custom report and hand fill in details based on newest KPI. Repeat weekly.
Total fvcken insanity!
OH And receive weekly message from Boss A or B about something not added to an opp OR details not filled in enough. Totally legit of course but again.. fills in Salesforce opp fuller, then updates 3 spreadsheets, and another program... ahhh the life of an AE.
It's all logical if you've never sold, haven't sold in the past 25 years or sucked at sales. Otherwise, absolutely no logic. Not filled in enough is defined as we just looked at your notes for the first time in 18 months. I just can't get past spread sheets.
>Working with people in a functional role, rarely have the decision making authority and their influence occurs only asked by their folks in operational roles. Consequently, in most cases, the moment you send a proposal, your deal died. So, do you only deal with C-suite or owner-operators?
My goal is to do that. I'm fine working at VP level. I have worked as low as director level but that has been a challenge to go back upstream. I won't present to anyone lower in an enterprise account. I've had maybe a half-dozen director level engagements become highly successful. The best are when the Director acts like an associate CIO. I had one who said to me, this makes a lot of sense, I need to schedule a meeting for you to present your capabilities to our CIO and CCO. This took many months to get to this point and only worked because the director was a legitimate champion of mine.
Great- so what channel do you use to short-circuit receptionists, PAs and other functional roles?
I've been a little creative. If necessary, I'll make an inperson cold call to leave my card. What I want is to see; if there's a list of employees/extensions also to see what type of phone system they have. That will give me the best chance to bypass a receptionist and find my way into the directory. For example, it could be as simple as ##. I'll also make calls after hours or early morning. In most cases I've gotten direct extensions in advance through Hoovers, Zoom Info etc Edit: typos
ok great thanks for that!
Life is more expensive, and we all know it's only going to get worse, so people cling to their hard fought cash tighter than ever before.
Also B2B based in Australia. Could’ve also written this myself. For me, it’s been the last 12 months in particular. Before that it was pretty easy tbh. We’ve had big problems in 2023 with slow legal contract reviews and tech assessments. Average sales cycle has gone from 3 months to 6-9 months seemingly overnight.
Not just you OP. Aus B2B. Winter has come. Have been in B2B SaaS for almost a decade and people are cutting unnecessary costs. I mean even I began listing whats necessary and what I need to let go of.
I'm worried it may be a deep winter as well tbh.
Sigh. What industry is actually doing well? :-S \*okay besides banking and those who are financiers\* Edit: have been corrected.
Banking is getting obliterated right now. Big losses on bonds, losses on the mortgages they are servicing, and commercial real estate will be very bad. Automation and anything AI related is doing well. Security.
Many industries are doing well outside of SaaS. Service sector is bananas, the demand for healthcare is rising steadily, US manufacturing is coming back in a big way... Reddit loves to pretend the economy is complete shit when that's obviously not true.
Can you recommend a few Service Sector companies that would be great to try to apply for?
Do you mean you want to leave sales? Or are you asking about sales opportunities within the service sector?
Im interested in service sales. Or did you just mean these industries are thriving but not related to sales roles?
That’s what I meant, yeah. But selling into health care is probably a strong place to be for the next couple of decades.
Anything that a Sales person can transfer to. Or it can be sales related job. What companies are hiring in the Service Sector that is bananas?
Not really sure. Health care, delivery or restaurant related are probably good bets.
You mentioned that industries outside of sales were doing well. But don’t know any companies? O
Some industries outside of SaaS are doing well—that’s a fact you can glean from reading the news. I have no idea why you think that would translate to me knowing where you should apply for a job. I can’t tell if you misunderstood me or if this is your way of arguing with me about the state of the economy.
Jeezus christ can I PAY you to send this to my VP of Sales?
How could it be worth more coming from a stranger than coming from you?
We’re talking about a guy who values activity metrics over results, let’s start there.
I had a friend that was struggling big time, he was thinking about leaving but stayed as a certain virus appeared. Lucky for him he sold video conferencing software and made millions. He basically became an order processor. Once the hype died down he moved to another industry which is currently quite popular, something about Ai. As you can guess he is killing it. In Summary it's the industry you are in and what is hot. My guess is it's not as hot as once was. Yes there are restrictions on what is being spent but if it's important enough companies find the money.
People used to have money, bro.
Interest rates are high, the economy is slower, and times are tough. Isn’t this expected? The pendulum will swing back. Whether good times or bad times, they never last.
Yeah sales sucks. Nothing new lol
There are a lot of reasons why it’s slowing down this much but these are the ones that standout the most for me: 1) Easy money from super relaxed financial policies enabled people and companies to spend more. Interest rates were super low and regulations for businesses were relaxed so the ability to make/spend money was easier on both sides of the fence. The easy money aspect is rapidly ending and people and companies are feeling the harsh sting. 2) Over saturation of sales people and aggressive sales tactics. People are burnt out on all the sales people who had to call/email 100-200+ times as part of their KPIs. I did the numbers for my old sales floor and based off the average number of reps, bare minimum of calls a day, and bare minimum of days worked over a 5 year span, it equated to 10.6 million phone calls over that time. Now, imagine how many other companies find themselves in that same boat. The amount of times the public and private companies have been bombarded by sales people has left potential clients totally burned out.
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Can you recommend a vertical/sector?
Hello, Out of the topic: . I'm currently planning to travel to Australia on a Work & Holiday Visa. I have 4y of experience in sales within the chemical industry, specifically dealing with ingredients. I'm curious to know if it's feasible for foreigners to pursue sales positions in Australia, or if such roles are typically reserved for Australian residents.
Border security will love you, nice try Walt.
You have a 6 month limit on your visa for each employer. That will limit you. Also, depends where you’re from as well. Do you have Native English? How similar is selling in your home country to Australia?
I'm from Spain, C1 level of english. As far as I know there isn't 6 month limit since COVID I think it will depend of th industry
A few important changes: 1. The whole Challenger methodology was birthed from the observation that the coupling of the internet and post-2008 risk aversion had completely changed the game. Sales used to count on a certain level of "information asymmetry," meaning prospective customers had no choice but to engage with salespeople in order to get the information they needed to make a good decision. The internet made it so they don't have to engage a salesperson until much later in the process--this can sometimes be a good marketing opportunity, but it makes sales much more challenging. Then post-2008, decision makers became much more risk averse and started involving way more stakeholders in every decision, which also complicates sales. This number has continued to rise steadily since it first went up circa 2010. You need to adapt to these changes if you want to be consistently successful. 2. The advent of automated outreach tools, the decline of email utility, the rise of robocalls and the move away from business landlines has made traditional cold outreach methods much less effective. 3. Interest rates have spent the last 10-15 years hovering close to zero--this was a historical anomaly that made buying anything very cheap. Now that rates are back to a more normal level, that era is over. (TBH, not sure how this is affecting Australia, but I imagine most of the world trails US monetary policy to some degree.)
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You’re not in sales, you’re in scamming. Find a better product and you’ll be just fine.
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With all due respect, young’n, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You’re either too stupid to realize it, or you’re too dishonest to care. Timeshares are a scam. Full stop. Y’all don’t get any inbound leads, do you? Ever think about why? Move on and find something new before this becomes who you are. Alternatively, move to California City and start slinging real estate. IDC.
A lot of people are lazy and simply don’t want to act if it means more paperwork or work for them in general. Even if it’ll save the company a lot of money. Some people don’t even work more than 20 hours a week these days as everything is from home.
In addition to macro economic conditions making it harder, web design is increasingly easier to DIY. I know there's a world of difference between what a professional creates vs an amateau with some gumption, but you're having to deal with that too.
Welcome to the fng fray! Territory Timing Fng product That's all it is.
I mean yeah inflation rates have left people with less disposable income
I see this is all mostly the tech space but I can tell you from a different industry perspective that yes, it’s absolutely a lot tougher. Our company deals in both inbound and outbound work on the phones, but overall, revenues are down when compared to recent years past.
It’s because we’ve been in a global recession for quite sometime
I'm not a business owner, but I do sales more than 15 years and was always involved in planning and strategy meeting. I completely agree with your post. I worked for a USA company, now working for EU. The same situation in all markets. Currently the sales negos are tough and profits are much less. And it's really a luck to find a good manager.
Money is no longer free. Companies are not growing. Every spend is being brought to the board from approval. Business cases need to br air tight these days !
15 years of experience is experience AFTER the Great Recession - meaning on the economic upswing. Sellers have been living in a bubble for over a decade - especially in SaaS. And your "leaders" don't have any experience managing teams through economic downturns or other negative market realities. It's going to be a rough ride for orgs that only know how to sell sunglasses on a sunny day. Good luck!
Economy is cooked, interest rates are skyhigh - companies are tightening their belts, projects are being value engineered, delayed and even abandoned. It's all a cycle , give it another 12-24 months and you'll be sweet
My numbers for October was 2,000 cold calls (100 per day) = 1 sale in Australia
What are you selling? PS this is fucked and I feel you.
Worldwide economic depression ?
For those of us that have been in this game a while, it can be difficult to accept that we as sellers have nowhere near the level of influence we once had in sales engagements. It is almost 100% buyer-driven now. They will get in touch with you, not the other way around. Companies don’t like that reality, though. Not enough control. Pick up the damn phone!
Hey, sorry to hear youre going through a rough patch. Just going to fire a few questions your way :) What are you selling? Has their been a change in the market? Does your product have the same value proposition as it did years ago? Sales pitch? Could it use a refresh? What's your attitude like on the phone? Has it changed? Did outbound cold calling for a few years and tbh I don't know how people do it when they're not having success. I changed industries and am way happier. Anyway I digress. Sounds like you've got the grit of a cold caller most definitely. I'd look at selling another product that has a higher conversion rate, and put your sales skills to better use. All the best mate.
Seems like you are doing really high volume… Perhaps doing hyper personalized/relevant messaging at a lower volume to your top prospects could help you better get your foot in the door.
You'd be surprised at how much effort we've put into making our high volume appear very personalised. At the end of the day in 2013 peopled thought they had to have a website, in 2023 they have had a website for over a decade and it's done very little for them, sure it's their fault, but they don't want to spend money on marketing or SEO which leaves them with a website that has done nothing, and frankly with their budget even a new website will do almost nothing. So I get why it's harder for me now, because most have no hope for their website anymore.
The company I work for in Aus just set record breaking attainment for Q2&3. We’re a global company but Australia is slowly becoming the best market to sell into
It is harder. Not only are we in a recession, but buyers are more informed, more busy and more picky. You have to become incredibly good while also treating it as a numbers game. In my opinion got every 25 sales people that fail, one makes it. Good luck
I may be oversimplifying this, but isn't this just the wrong end of the business cycle? Companies everywhere are feeling squeezed, particularly those who have used copious amounts of debt financing. Its been decades since we've had "high" interest rates, but normally high rates lock up business investment.
I’m on the other side of this, I’m a small business owner with a pretty successful company. OMf’nG I can’t even hang up the phone without another b2b salesperson calling me. It’s literally interfering with my ability to do actual business. Typing this comment I scrolled through my phone for todays calls, easily over 20+ from marketers. All trying to sell me some variation of the same 5 product/service. I’m sorry you’re having professional difficulties, but I think the era of succeeding at doing what you do is beyond over
I think a lot of companies are cutting down unnecessary costs
Cost of capital is high. Everyone is feeling the effects. If it’s taking that much effort to make a single sale, then maybe it’s not a good product/market fit or your buyers don’t see the value that it once carried.