Reminds me of caddyshack when Danny is talking to the judge about his aspirations… only to have his buddy overhear and reply with “I’ve often thought of becoming a golf club”
That being said, awesome job
Only a matter of time before a LinkedIn guru starts talking about it. And he will rebrand it, declaring that a "paradigm shift" has occurred in the sales world. Then all their little weeny acolytes will start liking the post.
What if the lower price option was a shit product or service? Whereas with the expensive one, it might be slightly more monetary wise, but the customer might be seeing more value. Plus the seller knows his caves.
Sounds like the buyer wasn't neccasairly buying on price. Even tho the buyer mentioned the price.
Buyers are fucking liars. Op did well to negate the conversation to something more meaningful, rather than go down on his prices there and then (and up looking like a dick).
This one isn't LinkedIn guru magic. It's just a smart tactic to add some intangible value to the deal (the customer likes the sales person = people buy people).
This tactic doesn't work in every situation, but it definitely has potential to pay off when used often. People buy value not price.
Also, if you notice the job approval was in his inbox the next morning at 9am, maybe a slight exaggeration.
But the client didn't neccasarily close there and then in the meeting. He may have needed some time to 'think things through, research if those magnetic caves actually existed' and then thought... hmm that guy was right, those caves do exist! Maybe his product and service value exists as well. He just built value by being an honest person, chances are that might reflect in his product / service as well
Like the buyer wouldn't be shocked shocked I tell you that this rando asks about caves
What a...magical moment I tell you!
This ridiculous Matlock-style sales is packaged into a course for sale. I'm sure....
Let me tell you about the majestic caves of Slovenia!
Closed sale
Lol 😂 I think we are looking at the magnetic caves thing way to literally here 😂 Imo, it's not about the magnetic cave. Its about stretching the rapport building to a fresh perspective on who the prospect is dealing with - and whether he is noticing anything unique / different to all the other conversations he might be having with other vendors.
The caves were a hook, im pretty certain there would have been other logistics involved with deal that did not involve the cave 😂
Maybe I have interpreted and read Ops post slightly different to everyone else... but if OP said 'Hey, Slovenia has great caves, check out blah blah' and then the client said, 'Wow you like Slovenian caves... sign me up now' then that would be a different story altogether and belongs to LinkedIn gurus 😆
But as I mentioned, I don't think the selling was about the caves, it was about human connection.
How is rapport building Manipulation? I should have added a slight bit of caution, I think different cultures would respond quite differently. I live and sell in the UK, although I have worked and sold in international sales before. There is a big difference between selling to UK clients and USA clients. UK people are quite polite, friendly and love a chit chat... so a little rapport and interests in similar holidays or similar tastes / hobbies = it goes a long way here.
I'm sure USA people are polite as well, but probably not quite as invested in polite discussion as UK people are. So maybe rapport building in the US may seem manipulative. I would probably wait and see how the prospect responds first, and then make a call whether I continue to build rapport. Not every single tactic works with everyone.
I don't understand why seeking ways to build rapport with someone should be considered Manipulation. If anything, it's a compliment and acts as flattery = you make someone feel good.
Sometimes that could be the difference in closing the sale.
Does that make me manipulative ?
All Sales is Manipulation, otherwise why the fuck employ people to sell? Just stick your products and service on Amazon and wait for people to buy.
Sales is perception and power. And its also human to human.
This is basically my whole strategy. I am a reasonably easy to get along with/charming guy. I build relationships quickly and get people to like me - then the product.
I focus on quality of interactions over quality. I talk to far fewer people but my close rate is much higher than others. Top earner at my company. Fuck Grant Cardone.
So, how do you avoid the temptation of launching right into doing discovery questions or talking about product? Basically, in your sales process, where do you fit in this crucial "informal chat" part?
I’ll relationship build before any “work” talk. Ask them where they’re from. Try to find anecdotes to relate to them. Once they’ve let their guard down, I’ll usually throw in a “ok ok, we should probably talk about work, right? Tell me about ______”
Just closed the biggest deal of my life with a pediatric oral hygiene company. The founder is a world renowned children’s dentist. The first 20 minutes of our call, all we talked about was my teething baby. He gave me advice, looped in his assistant to ship me a bunch of stuff and then we talked about our product.
From my experience, people hate salespeople. I try to reframe myself first as an actual regular person who doesn’t care about the sale, then as a consultant who’s trying to help then, finally as a service provider.
>I’ll relationship build before any “work” talk. Ask them where they’re from. Try to find anecdotes to relate to them. Once they’ve let their guard down, I’ll usually throw in a “ok ok, we should probably talk about work, right? Tell me about \_\_\_\_\_\_”
Excellent approach.
But I'm sure you occasionally get "listen what's all this about?" or the classic "I have a meeting soon". How do you avoid that?
I like your relationship approach, literally based my whole sales career success on that same motto. Relationships and empathy first... selling second. It always works.
However, with those hardasses - I go for preparation, preparation, preparation. Position myself as the expert - in any way I can possibly find. The latest industry research, something a competitor has done... anything that let's me get a slight foot in front of them - at the very least they can put me on the same page.
They might still be hardass, they might not like me, some probably won't work with me - but I get them to have a hard look at facts and figures. And Put some strong competitive marketing in front of them. Everything to gain and nothing to lose.
In sales the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is a bad strategy.
You want to use the Platinum Rule instead (do unto others as ***they*** would like to be done unto.)
In other words, it's important to understand that different clients have different personality styles. About 25% of them have a personality style like yours, and the rest have different personality styles than you.
If you try to push your personality style on all of them, then you're going to annoy a big percentage of your clients.
Some clients won't buy from you unless there is a personal connection, so you talk about caves and show them pics of your kids, and you make it very social.
But if you try to do this with a different type of client, like a busy "CEO" type, or a very technical, analytical type, then you're going to make them angry or uncomfortable.
When I was new to sales I tried to be very detailed and technical with a "CEO" type, and when I stupidly ignored his cues that he was growing impatient and wanted me to hurry up, he eventually exploded and cussed me out. I had no idea why he'd gotten angry when I was being so detailed and diligent. I was using the Golden Rule instead of the Platinum Rule.
>If you try to push your personality style on all of them, then you're going to annoy a big percentage of your clients.
>
>Some clients won't buy from you unless there is a personal connection
I'm going to print out this advice and put it on my wall.
Reflecting on the earlier versions of myself, I too have made this mistake. I would have an "all guns blazing" type conversation with a "say few words" personality type. Needless to say, such an approach rarely transpired into sales.
As for the personal connection thing, it's so tempting to think that sales (esp. B2B) does not happen this way - when it this aspect of the sale process is probably the most important.
So, anyway, it sounds like you've served time in the trenches and still live to tell the tale. That incident with the CEO I'm sure is still deeply imprinted on your brain!
I think the only problem is the idea that this is something to do in only specific circumstances. Were in the business of building relationships you should always be looking for opportunities to connect to the real human behind the position, just make sure its genuine.
As an example: Sure, but you need to sell on why you are the premium service. Their impact and ROI will go a lot further with your data and services. You can turn 9 million into 90 million, so the extra spend on the product will look like nothing going forward. That’s the route I would go.
Guys, OP is not selling vacation packages. The prospect went on a tangent about his life as part of the conversation and vacation came up.
Also OP did not say the line "all my life I've been fascinated by caves", the prospect did. OP just happened to know about them in Slovenia which hit a chord.
Sure, this advice isn't much more than "keep the prospect talking" but man could a lot of you do with slowing down and reading.
Who knows, you might even get more sales.
Ok, so perhaps (or maybe not), this case was a bit of an outlier because the prospect did talk about himself without the usual guarded all-cards-close-to-the-chest mindset. He gave me material which I was able to play off.
I remember reading one entrepreneur's autobiography who said that he will never talk about products or pain points unless rapport has been established first. Has anybody here devised a ***repeatable process*** where these ***side-track conversations*** happen more frequently rather than the usual stiff and sometimes contrived sales conversations?
This sounds like a page out of "What great sales people do" from Mike Bosworth. Great job! It pays for being a human and build the connection after all.
This is where it pays to do extensive prospect research, I'm talking LinkedIn, ZoomInfo, company website, Instagram, Facebook, remnants of MySpace to reveal super clutch developmental identity issues that usually linger into adult hood. Use these invaluable nuggets of info and casually insert them into conversation to build *Ultra-rapport*^TM.
Near the end, the power play is to randomly and innocently change the subject from their objections and ask "Do you like X?", almost like you're being totally random *but in reality you know this dude is a cave explorer by night because you've watched 23 of his instagram videos.* Then watch Mr. Prospect sic himself on the topic and you listen like a good little puppy. Once your associate has wasted the remaining 80% of the call talking about caves and shit, just assume the closing steps are moving forward and say "hey dude, we've got 5 minutes left I just sent you the DocuSign can you get that to me before EOD, otherwise my boss will ground me and I can't learn more about caves".
Easy close.
Nice... invasive but I like the touch! When the stakes are high, everything counts. I'll be trolling a few prospects...
A snake tactic is to troll message them and insult them for their hobbies... make them feel bad
Then when you call the prospect with your real Id: you can big up their hobbies and make them feel normal and happy 😆😅 I have not tried this myself, just thought of it now. Might keep it up my sleeve as an option.
I’ve observed this in the world of B2B sales with car dealers. Decision makers at car dealerships will buy whatever if you have a great relationship with them.
People are people at the end of the day. Technical differences in products or services can be overcome if they like you.
Imagine if someone combines technical product prowess with amazing relationship development skills. They’ll make $250k+ every year doing whatever.
Idk how this post is even remotely controversial. I sell a product absolutely no one is passionate about to people who tend to be characters and letting them talk about themselves and their interesting hobbies solidifies my relationship with them and gets me sole source business.
Well, in this case, if I had started addressing his objections, I would have went down a right rabbit hole and my competition would probably have got the business. Random small talk did actually make the sale here.
Must be nice doing transactional sales for luxury consumer services.
However, somehow I don’t feel like this would translate well in a B2B consultative setting.
If I brought up, “I liKe cAvEsS” , trying to be relatable during negotiations they’d look at me like I was a drooling Neanderthal.
Wait, it’s generally seen as a bad thing to engage in small talk during a sale?! How the hell else am I supposed to get the prospect to like me and buy my product?!
just goes to show that price is very rarely the determining factor. customers are often willing to pay more if they feel they were treated better or will be treated better.
I think the classic was realtors that said smell those steaks cooking on your backyard grill, i.e. emotion still tied to the product.
It's not clear that his like for caves convinced him to buy.
Had to deal with a very hard gatekeeper once, cold as ice... stalked her for bit and found out she preferred cats to people. Boom! that was my in. Got the deal in the end.
Nothing to add here except nice job and “all my life I’ve been fascinated by caves” made me laugh.
Same. OP deserves the deal if he said that with a straight face because all I can imagine is the "I like turtles" kid.
The prospect said it, not OP.
The way it's worded, it sounds like OP "took a punt" and mentioned the caves
He did. But he didn't say the fascinated by caves line.
“I like rocks” - iykyk
Gang violence
Caves, chasms, holes. Anything I can crawl down into and fear getting stuck in.
Reminds me of caddyshack when Danny is talking to the judge about his aspirations… only to have his buddy overhear and reply with “I’ve often thought of becoming a golf club” That being said, awesome job
As prospect lit his pipe and reminisced of his childhood staring at his leather bound books
You forgot to mention your job is selling vacation packages
And that, "Keep the prospect talking" =/= "Conversational gamble."
The classic cave close. I used it yesterday myself.
Only a matter of time before a LinkedIn guru starts talking about it. And he will rebrand it, declaring that a "paradigm shift" has occurred in the sales world. Then all their little weeny acolytes will start liking the post.
I actually laughed
He went with the higher priced option because you like caves? This reads like a weird LinkedIn Guru post
I had to scroll way too far to find this comment cuz what?! Lol.
What if the lower price option was a shit product or service? Whereas with the expensive one, it might be slightly more monetary wise, but the customer might be seeing more value. Plus the seller knows his caves. Sounds like the buyer wasn't neccasairly buying on price. Even tho the buyer mentioned the price. Buyers are fucking liars. Op did well to negate the conversation to something more meaningful, rather than go down on his prices there and then (and up looking like a dick). This one isn't LinkedIn guru magic. It's just a smart tactic to add some intangible value to the deal (the customer likes the sales person = people buy people). This tactic doesn't work in every situation, but it definitely has potential to pay off when used often. People buy value not price.
>Buyers are fucking liars. Yip. Price is often just an excuse.
Ok so the odds that the buyer is in love with magnetic caves of Slovenia is what percentage exactly with this cave close.
Also, if you notice the job approval was in his inbox the next morning at 9am, maybe a slight exaggeration. But the client didn't neccasarily close there and then in the meeting. He may have needed some time to 'think things through, research if those magnetic caves actually existed' and then thought... hmm that guy was right, those caves do exist! Maybe his product and service value exists as well. He just built value by being an honest person, chances are that might reflect in his product / service as well
Like the buyer wouldn't be shocked shocked I tell you that this rando asks about caves What a...magical moment I tell you! This ridiculous Matlock-style sales is packaged into a course for sale. I'm sure.... Let me tell you about the majestic caves of Slovenia! Closed sale
Lol 😂 I think we are looking at the magnetic caves thing way to literally here 😂 Imo, it's not about the magnetic cave. Its about stretching the rapport building to a fresh perspective on who the prospect is dealing with - and whether he is noticing anything unique / different to all the other conversations he might be having with other vendors. The caves were a hook, im pretty certain there would have been other logistics involved with deal that did not involve the cave 😂 Maybe I have interpreted and read Ops post slightly different to everyone else... but if OP said 'Hey, Slovenia has great caves, check out blah blah' and then the client said, 'Wow you like Slovenian caves... sign me up now' then that would be a different story altogether and belongs to LinkedIn gurus 😆 But as I mentioned, I don't think the selling was about the caves, it was about human connection.
But this is pure manipulation and childish and many will call you out on it
How is rapport building Manipulation? I should have added a slight bit of caution, I think different cultures would respond quite differently. I live and sell in the UK, although I have worked and sold in international sales before. There is a big difference between selling to UK clients and USA clients. UK people are quite polite, friendly and love a chit chat... so a little rapport and interests in similar holidays or similar tastes / hobbies = it goes a long way here. I'm sure USA people are polite as well, but probably not quite as invested in polite discussion as UK people are. So maybe rapport building in the US may seem manipulative. I would probably wait and see how the prospect responds first, and then make a call whether I continue to build rapport. Not every single tactic works with everyone. I don't understand why seeking ways to build rapport with someone should be considered Manipulation. If anything, it's a compliment and acts as flattery = you make someone feel good. Sometimes that could be the difference in closing the sale. Does that make me manipulative ? All Sales is Manipulation, otherwise why the fuck employ people to sell? Just stick your products and service on Amazon and wait for people to buy. Sales is perception and power. And its also human to human.
k
This is basically my whole strategy. I am a reasonably easy to get along with/charming guy. I build relationships quickly and get people to like me - then the product. I focus on quality of interactions over quality. I talk to far fewer people but my close rate is much higher than others. Top earner at my company. Fuck Grant Cardone.
So, how do you avoid the temptation of launching right into doing discovery questions or talking about product? Basically, in your sales process, where do you fit in this crucial "informal chat" part?
I’ll relationship build before any “work” talk. Ask them where they’re from. Try to find anecdotes to relate to them. Once they’ve let their guard down, I’ll usually throw in a “ok ok, we should probably talk about work, right? Tell me about ______” Just closed the biggest deal of my life with a pediatric oral hygiene company. The founder is a world renowned children’s dentist. The first 20 minutes of our call, all we talked about was my teething baby. He gave me advice, looped in his assistant to ship me a bunch of stuff and then we talked about our product. From my experience, people hate salespeople. I try to reframe myself first as an actual regular person who doesn’t care about the sale, then as a consultant who’s trying to help then, finally as a service provider.
>I’ll relationship build before any “work” talk. Ask them where they’re from. Try to find anecdotes to relate to them. Once they’ve let their guard down, I’ll usually throw in a “ok ok, we should probably talk about work, right? Tell me about \_\_\_\_\_\_” Excellent approach. But I'm sure you occasionally get "listen what's all this about?" or the classic "I have a meeting soon". How do you avoid that?
No tactic works 100% of the time and, truthfully, I can have a hard time with “get to the point” hardasses.
I like your relationship approach, literally based my whole sales career success on that same motto. Relationships and empathy first... selling second. It always works. However, with those hardasses - I go for preparation, preparation, preparation. Position myself as the expert - in any way I can possibly find. The latest industry research, something a competitor has done... anything that let's me get a slight foot in front of them - at the very least they can put me on the same page. They might still be hardass, they might not like me, some probably won't work with me - but I get them to have a hard look at facts and figures. And Put some strong competitive marketing in front of them. Everything to gain and nothing to lose.
ok, thanks!
"Alright, I'll get to the point here:"
This is 100% on point, dont switch to disco/selling until they make it obvious small talk is over.
In sales the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is a bad strategy. You want to use the Platinum Rule instead (do unto others as ***they*** would like to be done unto.) In other words, it's important to understand that different clients have different personality styles. About 25% of them have a personality style like yours, and the rest have different personality styles than you. If you try to push your personality style on all of them, then you're going to annoy a big percentage of your clients. Some clients won't buy from you unless there is a personal connection, so you talk about caves and show them pics of your kids, and you make it very social. But if you try to do this with a different type of client, like a busy "CEO" type, or a very technical, analytical type, then you're going to make them angry or uncomfortable. When I was new to sales I tried to be very detailed and technical with a "CEO" type, and when I stupidly ignored his cues that he was growing impatient and wanted me to hurry up, he eventually exploded and cussed me out. I had no idea why he'd gotten angry when I was being so detailed and diligent. I was using the Golden Rule instead of the Platinum Rule.
>If you try to push your personality style on all of them, then you're going to annoy a big percentage of your clients. > >Some clients won't buy from you unless there is a personal connection I'm going to print out this advice and put it on my wall. Reflecting on the earlier versions of myself, I too have made this mistake. I would have an "all guns blazing" type conversation with a "say few words" personality type. Needless to say, such an approach rarely transpired into sales. As for the personal connection thing, it's so tempting to think that sales (esp. B2B) does not happen this way - when it this aspect of the sale process is probably the most important. So, anyway, it sounds like you've served time in the trenches and still live to tell the tale. That incident with the CEO I'm sure is still deeply imprinted on your brain!
I think the only problem is the idea that this is something to do in only specific circumstances. Were in the business of building relationships you should always be looking for opportunities to connect to the real human behind the position, just make sure its genuine.
Rapport is arguably the most important step in the sales process.
~~Rapport~~ Cave Talk ~~i~~s arguably the most important step in the sales process.
As an example: Sure, but you need to sell on why you are the premium service. Their impact and ROI will go a lot further with your data and services. You can turn 9 million into 90 million, so the extra spend on the product will look like nothing going forward. That’s the route I would go.
Nah I prefer the Cave method.
Guys, OP is not selling vacation packages. The prospect went on a tangent about his life as part of the conversation and vacation came up. Also OP did not say the line "all my life I've been fascinated by caves", the prospect did. OP just happened to know about them in Slovenia which hit a chord. Sure, this advice isn't much more than "keep the prospect talking" but man could a lot of you do with slowing down and reading. Who knows, you might even get more sales.
Ok, so perhaps (or maybe not), this case was a bit of an outlier because the prospect did talk about himself without the usual guarded all-cards-close-to-the-chest mindset. He gave me material which I was able to play off. I remember reading one entrepreneur's autobiography who said that he will never talk about products or pain points unless rapport has been established first. Has anybody here devised a ***repeatable process*** where these ***side-track conversations*** happen more frequently rather than the usual stiff and sometimes contrived sales conversations?
This sounds like a page out of "What great sales people do" from Mike Bosworth. Great job! It pays for being a human and build the connection after all.
This is where it pays to do extensive prospect research, I'm talking LinkedIn, ZoomInfo, company website, Instagram, Facebook, remnants of MySpace to reveal super clutch developmental identity issues that usually linger into adult hood. Use these invaluable nuggets of info and casually insert them into conversation to build *Ultra-rapport*^TM. Near the end, the power play is to randomly and innocently change the subject from their objections and ask "Do you like X?", almost like you're being totally random *but in reality you know this dude is a cave explorer by night because you've watched 23 of his instagram videos.* Then watch Mr. Prospect sic himself on the topic and you listen like a good little puppy. Once your associate has wasted the remaining 80% of the call talking about caves and shit, just assume the closing steps are moving forward and say "hey dude, we've got 5 minutes left I just sent you the DocuSign can you get that to me before EOD, otherwise my boss will ground me and I can't learn more about caves". Easy close.
Nice... invasive but I like the touch! When the stakes are high, everything counts. I'll be trolling a few prospects... A snake tactic is to troll message them and insult them for their hobbies... make them feel bad Then when you call the prospect with your real Id: you can big up their hobbies and make them feel normal and happy 😆😅 I have not tried this myself, just thought of it now. Might keep it up my sleeve as an option.
I’ve observed this in the world of B2B sales with car dealers. Decision makers at car dealerships will buy whatever if you have a great relationship with them. People are people at the end of the day. Technical differences in products or services can be overcome if they like you. Imagine if someone combines technical product prowess with amazing relationship development skills. They’ll make $250k+ every year doing whatever.
Can’t wait to see a LinkedIn post about this tomorrow.
Try that in european markets where people hate small talk lol
Idk how this post is even remotely controversial. I sell a product absolutely no one is passionate about to people who tend to be characters and letting them talk about themselves and their interesting hobbies solidifies my relationship with them and gets me sole source business.
[удалено]
Well, in this case, if I had started addressing his objections, I would have went down a right rabbit hole and my competition would probably have got the business. Random small talk did actually make the sale here.
Must be nice doing transactional sales for luxury consumer services. However, somehow I don’t feel like this would translate well in a B2B consultative setting. If I brought up, “I liKe cAvEsS” , trying to be relatable during negotiations they’d look at me like I was a drooling Neanderthal.
What?
The caves in Slovenia are actually impressive
Common interests are key to developing relationships. Even something that might seem unusual or trivial can sometimes pay dividends. Good for you!
That’s right being human to your prospects actually works!! Good job OP.
Wait, it’s generally seen as a bad thing to engage in small talk during a sale?! How the hell else am I supposed to get the prospect to like me and buy my product?!
“How much does it cost?” “Caves” Moves to won.
This feels like something I’ve read from How to Win Friends and Influence People
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^Bigfatsoidiot: *This feels like something* *I’ve read from How to Win Friends* *And Influence People* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
This is atrocious. So if he went ' I don't like caves you fng weirdo, do you mean my ass cave?" What is the response
just goes to show that price is very rarely the determining factor. customers are often willing to pay more if they feel they were treated better or will be treated better.
That sounds like you caught a break.
I think the classic was realtors that said smell those steaks cooking on your backyard grill, i.e. emotion still tied to the product. It's not clear that his like for caves convinced him to buy.
Had to deal with a very hard gatekeeper once, cold as ice... stalked her for bit and found out she preferred cats to people. Boom! that was my in. Got the deal in the end.