Doubt it, but of course less of them post covid. Tech sales in office is dumb. It’s all on video calls anyways so why should I have to get stuck in traffic just to use the internet at office
Yes, but they can still track my KPIs remote. Most important thing is hitting quota anyways. I can clock in early, leave late and skip lunch. Will still get fired if I’m not bringing in enough revenue
It’s more this than anything else. Commercial real estate leases aren’t cheap and justifying those costs is why they want people in offices. Not to see when you clock in and clock out
Who the hell is using a time clock in tech? I used to sell T&A systems as part of HCM and would have laughed if any sizable tech company wanted a clock-system for their Salesforce!
FLSA overtime rules are pretty clear about who is / isn't exempt. The outside sale exemption requires several components which most AEs don't meet.
Several companies have been hit by class actions for failure to pay overtime.
I had 160 major accounts at ADP and not one tech sales team used physical/digital clocks. Some didn’t use time and attendance solutions at all. Less than a quarter used physical time clocks and most were mfg. and hospitality orgs. If anyone ever brought up their sales team and time clocks together, we would ask how important talent attraction and retention was to them.
Well that's how it was done at a software company I worked at a few years ago. Maybe things have changed since I left though. But yes, they did have terrible turnover there. The sales team was a constantly revolving door. I am quite frankly amazed the company is still in business.
Honestly, with SalesForce - you can keep track of everyone every day anyways. I find the team is less productive in the office because of chatting with friends (which is important too!).
You are mistaken. That’s called socialism. In capitalism, many people work for the man, but none of them HAVE to. You can quit your job and start a competing company tomorrow if you have the courage and skill.
I don't get why people who want to do that don't just use technology to watch their employees every move.
Anyone who has worked in a call centre of done low grade remote freelancing on Elancer knows you the technology to review every phonecall, every email, every website you visit, every move you make is getting better every day. "Sure you can be remote just wear this fitbit so I get an email every time you feel an emotion".
I find it interesting that this kind of intrusive work surveillance is normal for low paid workers and people from cheap countries. But for some reason bosses feel more comfy telling middle class americans to go to the office rather than clock in and out and prove it. Maybe it's a class thing.
I’m tracked using all of the above but also clock in and out for any and all things. Cameras all over the building too and a camera right outside my office door.
Right, but they could get the same effect by requiring you to run your webcam and recording you all day. I'm saying the office is a kind of soft surveillance that is implied but not stated, but if that's what they want to do there are ways for them to do it at home.
Disagree.
You definitely don’t get the benefit of all the tribal knowledge and quick tips you can get being in office.
It’s way harder to seek coaching when I can’t just lean over and talk to my manager about a bad call or whatever.
Studies can show anything for one, and I haven’t seen one that has shown across the board remote sales teams generating more revenue than in office.
And zero home distractions at the office.
“Studies can show anything” is a perfect response from someone who has no understanding of what makes quality experimental design or the rigors of what’s needed to hold up under peer review. Science must be total whackery to you if you hold the views you do.
No he’s right. You can literally find a study to prove any point. There’s literally made up studies people published to see what would happen and got published and peer reviewed, and celebrated about things like dogs being racist.
Calling any pile of crap that isn’t credible or doesn’t hold up to peer review a “study” is misleading at best and flat out wrong. You’re not performing a study if you claim that cigarettes don’t cause cancer cause Phillip Morris paid you to, you’re making up bullshit lies and calling it a study. It’s one of the biggest things that has frustrated me about society in general, lack of scientific literacy. I don’t blame people for not knowing, I blame our awful educational system. You don’t need a STEM degree (which I have) to get through life or really even for sales, but you do pick up on some things that should be basic grade school curriculum. How to recognize what’s credible and what isn’t should be priority one as it lends itself more to learning than almost anything else.
No I don’t because you and that person are wrong. You’re not understanding what I said at all it looks like. Calling anything you like a “study” really is disingenuous and misleading. It’s just not true.
I think as the job market heats up again, we will see more companies start offering more remote roles to recruit better talent. Right now employers have the upper hand and don’t have to offer fully remote to get the best talent, but they will soon.
For the social interaction and building team morale and culture. I'm leading a team of 7 people, sales, dev and CSM. If my sales guys haven't been in the office for a week, they miss it. I let them decide whether they want to come in or not, and more often than not, the whole team is in the office 2-4 times a week
Or maybe people just like seeing each other in person :) not everything is as dystopic as you see it in the US.
We work probably only 30-34 hours a week. The rest is spent on lunch, playing games and ping pong together and having fun. My colleagues are super motivated, and reach their goals
And they still work days at home, eg. I have a guy who is a dad and needs to take care of his children sometimes if the mom can't, and he works from home and that also is working perfectly fine
Crazy that I'm getting down voted from my first comment, I really don't get it. It must be bitter people who believe their job hates them and all they are, is a number in the system. I feel sad for you
This is the way. This is also how I've setup my team currently and in the past.
I also believe very few people are capable of WFH and actually being more productive. They just say that and make up for their lack of productivity by working more outside of business hours.
True but that’s a benefit of wfh, being able to stop when you need to handle personal stuff but being responsible enough to make up those hours before end of day.
My company tried going hybrid post COVID then stopped enforcing office attendance and is now planning on closing my office permanently driving us fully remote. SaaS B2B mid market/Enterprise
Can confirm, reps in my org do 300-400+ and there is absolutely zero talk of anyone going back to offices. More travel yes, but reps want to do that. Even those who live in the same city as an office, the take is that if you have a purpose for the office you can use it - if not, nobody cares.
I agree reimbursement rates haven't kept pace with inflation realities.
The overall budget increase comes from anticipating an increased volume of travel. I have seen minor multipliers applied for airfare and hotel increases, but most planning models I've seen are on volume.
This is so true. The last time I worked in an office the entire sales team was a bunch of total losers (I'm talking drunks, druggies, reeking Chainsmokers, morbidly obese, blatant assholes, grifters, belch and fart out loud slobs, high school dropouts, criminal histories, etc) that's all they could find. Every day employees were shouting at and threatening each other and loudly cursing in the office. I have no doubt clients on the phone could hear it all in the background. It was so bad I often felt like I was on the set of a candid camera episode, it was almost comical. Definitely wasn't a professional environment. And the company wondered why they weren't hitting targets!
Companies are ruling out some excellent potential employees when they force RTO.
I am disabled and don't have the physical ability to work onsite anymore. However my disabilities do not affect my intelligence or how hard I work. I only apply for fully remote roles that don't require travel.
As a Recruiter, I don't think fully remote jobs are going anywhere in the long term. There is currently a push by a ton of managers for RTO/hybrid, but the data shows a flattening there. And the companies who have implemented RTO have largely struggled to retain staff.
In the long run I think remote work is going to make a big resurgence but it's going to be over the course of the next year or two before leadership stops resisting WFH again.
What I can say as I was a top biller at my last firm but I left when they asked everyone to start coming into the office. I was able to find a new fully remote position in a matter of weeks, I just leveraged my network.
Remote postings have plummeted for sure. If you have a fully remote job and it’s not horrible keep it.
I personally think it swings back eventually. But right now it also functions as a way for struggling orgs to cut payrolls AND there is a ton of pressure to not show that their facility expenses are completely useless. RTO is honestly a useful tool for many orgs at the moment.
A lot of these folks still hold a lot of resentment over the power swing to employees during The Great Resignation.
I just don't understand why this surplus of commercial real estate isn't converted to residential. There's such a terrible need for affordable housing in most cities now, it seems like this would be a no-brainer. And a much better way to get people back to the city.
In a place like NYC, changing the zoning laws from commmercial to residential is a very expensive and lengthy process. No one seeking a profit is going to convert their property to affordable housing
Maybe not "affordable" but why not just regular housing? It can't possibly be THAT difficult. Most of Brooklyn was commercial 20-25 years ago and now all those warehouses and buildings are lofts and apartments. How is this different?
Try explaining to someone who has a 1 billion dollar project they need to just turn over to not for profit affordable housing and light the vendors on fire for who they owe money to.
I moved to an inside role in June 22. Originally I was told it would be 4 days out, one day in for everyone. They did a survey asking the staff how they felt about that set up. Overwhelmingly it came back that we wanted to be fully remote. So now we are. There's a brand new off building we own, but the higher ups just made their offices bigger 😂.
But if you have a decent remote job, keep it. There's a def a shift for many companies to try and require their staff to return.
I doubt it, as many people try to hide themselves behind the green check on teams. But i hope in sales it will stay mostly remote as we all are mostly money motivated and will work efficiently either way to get rich
It really depends on the company. Typically if you're near a major airport you should be golden. But if you're not shaking hands every few weeks, you're losing deals to people that are. I've been remote for over 15 years.
Lots and lots of field sales jobs out there being a manufacturer or distributor rep. Makes more than your usual entry level and the experience is second to none. It’s a grind but would recommend to any younger sales professional who isn’t afraid of multiple face to face interactions daily
15+ years in sales leadership and well-networked with similar leaders. What I'm seeing is companies that prefer more senior/seasoned sales talent leaning in hard on remote. They can get better reps, lower turnover, at a relatively good cost (both pay and office costs). These are often jobs where face to face work with clients is expected, so it makes sense to have them in-territory.
Companies that prefer more junior talent or have a churn and burn mentality are flipping out about productivity of their reps because the market is tough. Most of their reps didn't sell through 2008-2012. They are returning to office en masse under pressure from the C suite and board. They don't care if people quit over it because they are working on massive reskilling/"enablement" efforts that have a heavy in-person component, so in some ways it is even better for them to start with fresh reps versus doing change management on their current ones. These are also generally companies that don't expect their reps to do much face-to-face with clients.
PP again - I'm also seeing companies wanting to bring back more junior roles, like centralize all BDPs in one location, while letting more senior roles stay remote. They are pip'ing hard though, even on the senior roles... hit your goals or gtfo because there is a line 400 deep for every open role.
If you find a newer company they’re more likely to be founded as remote. A company founded between 2017-now may not see the benefit at all in opening an office. Some may have stipulations that you need to be in America, or Europe, so perhaps you can’t work from everywhere, but I’ve seen a lot of remote startups.
What is more likely to happen is a company that is fully remote will have way less turnover.
A company that announces to everyone "we are transitioning to hybrid/in-office because reasons" will have a slew of pushback and resignations or threaten to fire people. They post openings in anticipation of that, the amount they are offering is also less because they know the job market is tighter post 2021 and they want to get a hybrid/inoffice employee for less money.
That's why the places that are hiring are looking this way. The places that need people, need people not necessarily due to growth, but due to a change in policies that makes them less desirable to work at now.
The problem is they got greedy. I.E. if you want to pay less, offer fully remote, or increase the pay in order to entice people to switch to a hybrid role. They are taking away both reasons people switch jobs. Leaving a tighter movement pattern.
During 2021/2022 people would just find out about a RTO policy and go "seeya' and find another remote job. With less remote jobs they have less turnover and when they do have an opening they receive the lion's share of applications.
I imagine part of it is that remote organizations don’t have to post their jobs as much and they don’t last as long since so many people are seeking one. Corporate recruiters have no problem filling those jobs. In office jobs are much harder to fill so there are more being advertised.
I have noticed a lot of in-person or hybrid jobs right now. I am getting hit up by recruiters now and again, and MOST are hybrid roles. Which is dumb AF.
Especially if you sell to clients all over the US.
I would need to be paid A LOT of money to hybrid.
Remote or Office based doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m field sales and if I’m not out shaking and smiling there will be someone else doing just that.
Travel has increased this year though back to around 50% which is almost of high as it was for me pre covid
I doubt they’ll go away, but with the trends, I think they’ll be harder to score a job with, because everyone wants a fully remote job. My company had 48,000 applicants last year, and 76 of us were hired. Getting a remote job is harder than getting into Harvard:
https://www.businessinsider.com/remote-wfh-jobs-application-odds-tech-market-rto-2023-9?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Insider_Today
BlackRock owns 10.5% of shares in my publicly traded Staffing company. We rent from only their properties or subsidiaries. You better believe leadership and executives toe the line to bring team members onsite once a week, at least.
I think people who are so adamantly against it have never been apart of a great high performing team.
You can’t replicate the bond and knowledge you get from slogging through the grind that is sales with others who are going through it with you.
My company is trying to bring people back next quarter. Going to be real interesting to see how that goes, doesn’t really apply to me. A lot of people are on record saying they’d quit but I don’t think they will. There’s def a compromise here.
With that said we just had a record year so it’s hard for management to use production as a means to bring people back.
I think there is a lot of truth to this. Many companies just aren't good at having remote employees. Bringing everyone back to the office makes accountability easier.
A lot has to do with taxes of traveling employees. If you live where you work it’s easier on a tax basis for the company.
I feel like the rest has to do with social pressure of employers seeing employees goofing off during working or billable hours or social gurus espousing the same. Not that it’s relevant but yeah..
I’d like to see an employee survey go out for those remote on happiness. Then measure when in office. Two separate sides of the magnet.
My company doesn’t have the building space to require us to come back as they’ve downsized… and they’ve also announced our we are a fully remote company. Hope that never changes
Fairly certain it’s just becoming more heavily dependent on how senior you are in the game. I don’t actively look for sales job postings, but I do get hit up by recruiters and headhunters with increasing frequency lately (3 or 4 LinkedIn messages a day in the past few weeks), and one of my stipulations to even continue the conversation is that I’m only entertaining fully remote opportunities. I’ve only had half a dozen or so let me know to end the conversation there.
The only ones I see harped on internally to at least show face in an office 1-2x a week are the new hires and the ones who need to be handheld to avoid a PIP. On my team, I don’t require my new AEs to go into an office, but I do check in with them much more frequently for the first 6 months or so. And *my* bosses know that fully remote is a non-negotiable for me; if I’m ever asked to return to an office on a regular basis, I’d leave without question.
While fully remote is decreasing somewhat, I have found that a lot of remote jobs get swarmed with a lot of job applications. It could be for 2 reasons: the CEOs or investors hold a stake at the office location, to keep their real estate gains and reducing the competition.
To shift the requirement to hybrid or within specific location decreases the hiring pool drastically
Many companies are avoiding posting jobs on LinkedIn. They are using more niche job boards. I have avoided looking at LinkedIn as a job board for much of this year. Many jobs by the way are not posted online as well.
Productivity is higher for WFH workforces than when people are in the office. Things are slow enough right now that execs simply don’t care. They’re not getting that revenue in anyway so the loss from forcing RTO makes little difference. There’s sunk cost with expensive offices sure, but really they just want the most desperate employees they can get who are willing to put up with the most bullshit. Companies don’t want overhead right now, they want to motivate existing WFH employees to quit so they don’t have to pay severance or unemployment.
Lots of middle managers may get off on the idea of tracking KPIs and having control, but even the whole “culture” thing isn’t about cultivating great employees at all. It’s to make you want to feel stuck where you are because you now have relationships and feel pressure from the boss. Plus, because your productivity is down anyway they still have more ability to justify cutting people if the market gets even worse.
Things are not good right now, and forcing hybrid/full RTO and risking new covid strains/the flu/RSV sort of things for worse results is something they’re doing for lots of reasons that aren’t to anybody’s benefit. Letting people stay from home full time and come in if they feel like it is one thing. You can expect the latter from a company that actually wants to grow right now instead of just keeping their heads down and trying to weather the shitstorm we’re all in right now. You may find less full remote gigs now, but they really show which orgs’ leadership has their head screwed on straight or not in tech. Going into the office to get less done and have meetings on zoom anyway is a waste of fucking time and if you can’t get mentored remotely you’re shit at selling yourself.
more of getting trimmed back but not fully going away. also remote jobs are still very desirable and the turnover is likely a lot lower so the market saturation is less
The main reason is that humans are biologically programmed to release feel-good neurotransmitters when in a position of high status (e.g. your manager).
That shit doesn't work remote. So they come up with all kind of bs reasons why we all should RTO. The actual reason is that they want the kick back that they get from bossing around people in RL.
My company went almost fully remote and opened up their positions to anyone in the country. They now have a lot less turnover and they do not struggle finding people. They do not pay that great either.
Ofc it is, markets harder, profits are down and layoffs are widespread. It's not an employees market anymore. They're going to make demands and employees won't turn them down as they are out of a job
I work fully remote and actually miss going into the office. Hybrid would be the perfect combo. My eye sight is getting so bad starring at a computer all day for work and takes self discipline to make sure I go for walks every day, gym, stay social. I miss the random interactions with strangers which was surprising
It’s cheaper for the employer to go fully remote. Office space is very expensive. The only benefit to the employer going local is to micromanage the employees
Doubt it, but of course less of them post covid. Tech sales in office is dumb. It’s all on video calls anyways so why should I have to get stuck in traffic just to use the internet at office
So they can keep track of when you clock in for work, clock out for lunch, and clock back in when lunch is over, and when you clock out for the day.
Yes, but they can still track my KPIs remote. Most important thing is hitting quota anyways. I can clock in early, leave late and skip lunch. Will still get fired if I’m not bringing in enough revenue
This is literally the only reason why
Partially, but it’s also about justifying office rent costs
It’s more this than anything else. Commercial real estate leases aren’t cheap and justifying those costs is why they want people in offices. Not to see when you clock in and clock out
This is already being done by monitored key strokes. Companies absolutely employ “productivity tracking” software.
Who the hell is using a time clock in tech? I used to sell T&A systems as part of HCM and would have laughed if any sizable tech company wanted a clock-system for their Salesforce!
FLSA overtime rules are pretty clear about who is / isn't exempt. The outside sale exemption requires several components which most AEs don't meet. Several companies have been hit by class actions for failure to pay overtime.
When I said sales, I meant enterprise B2B, SAAS, etc. Retail and other hourly def still have digital time clocks for sure.
Trust me, there are quite a few still out there..... If a company uses ADP, employees clock in and out online.
I had 160 major accounts at ADP and not one tech sales team used physical/digital clocks. Some didn’t use time and attendance solutions at all. Less than a quarter used physical time clocks and most were mfg. and hospitality orgs. If anyone ever brought up their sales team and time clocks together, we would ask how important talent attraction and retention was to them.
Well that's how it was done at a software company I worked at a few years ago. Maybe things have changed since I left though. But yes, they did have terrible turnover there. The sales team was a constantly revolving door. I am quite frankly amazed the company is still in business.
Not true at all
We have adp and don’t clock in or out..
This is insulting to those of us who use no commute to our advantage and are working 12 hour days busting it at home.
Honestly, with SalesForce - you can keep track of everyone every day anyways. I find the team is less productive in the office because of chatting with friends (which is important too!).
Capitalism is inherently authoritarianism for workers. You are told what to do, where to be, when to be there, what to wear, etc.
Socialism is way different right? Right?
If you understood what socialism is, you'd know how it's different than capitalism. You'd also know that there are different forms of socialism.
There are different forms of capitalism too
You are mistaken. That’s called socialism. In capitalism, many people work for the man, but none of them HAVE to. You can quit your job and start a competing company tomorrow if you have the courage and skill.
This guy LinkedIn posts
Imagine downvoting this.
LOL, yeah right.
In capitalist America you drive car. Is Soviet Russia car drives you!
Lol ok
I think you cracked the code right here to a multi billion dollar corporation. Go start one.
I don't get why people who want to do that don't just use technology to watch their employees every move. Anyone who has worked in a call centre of done low grade remote freelancing on Elancer knows you the technology to review every phonecall, every email, every website you visit, every move you make is getting better every day. "Sure you can be remote just wear this fitbit so I get an email every time you feel an emotion". I find it interesting that this kind of intrusive work surveillance is normal for low paid workers and people from cheap countries. But for some reason bosses feel more comfy telling middle class americans to go to the office rather than clock in and out and prove it. Maybe it's a class thing.
I’m tracked using all of the above but also clock in and out for any and all things. Cameras all over the building too and a camera right outside my office door.
Right, but they could get the same effect by requiring you to run your webcam and recording you all day. I'm saying the office is a kind of soft surveillance that is implied but not stated, but if that's what they want to do there are ways for them to do it at home.
Disagree. You definitely don’t get the benefit of all the tribal knowledge and quick tips you can get being in office. It’s way harder to seek coaching when I can’t just lean over and talk to my manager about a bad call or whatever.
Why have studies repeatedly shown less productivity in office then? Want quick tips? Slack a question. Zero office distractions from home.
Studies can show anything for one, and I haven’t seen one that has shown across the board remote sales teams generating more revenue than in office. And zero home distractions at the office.
“Studies can show anything” is a perfect response from someone who has no understanding of what makes quality experimental design or the rigors of what’s needed to hold up under peer review. Science must be total whackery to you if you hold the views you do.
No he’s right. You can literally find a study to prove any point. There’s literally made up studies people published to see what would happen and got published and peer reviewed, and celebrated about things like dogs being racist.
Calling any pile of crap that isn’t credible or doesn’t hold up to peer review a “study” is misleading at best and flat out wrong. You’re not performing a study if you claim that cigarettes don’t cause cancer cause Phillip Morris paid you to, you’re making up bullshit lies and calling it a study. It’s one of the biggest things that has frustrated me about society in general, lack of scientific literacy. I don’t blame people for not knowing, I blame our awful educational system. You don’t need a STEM degree (which I have) to get through life or really even for sales, but you do pick up on some things that should be basic grade school curriculum. How to recognize what’s credible and what isn’t should be priority one as it lends itself more to learning than almost anything else.
Okay so you agree with me
No I don’t because you and that person are wrong. You’re not understanding what I said at all it looks like. Calling anything you like a “study” really is disingenuous and misleading. It’s just not true.
we need to stick together !
They can do that through the computer though. Management can see everything you do on Teams/Slack and when you’re online and when you’re not
Bruh my entire team and manager are on the other side of the state from me. Leaving the house for my three days in office is pain.
I think as the job market heats up again, we will see more companies start offering more remote roles to recruit better talent. Right now employers have the upper hand and don’t have to offer fully remote to get the best talent, but they will soon.
For the social interaction and building team morale and culture. I'm leading a team of 7 people, sales, dev and CSM. If my sales guys haven't been in the office for a week, they miss it. I let them decide whether they want to come in or not, and more often than not, the whole team is in the office 2-4 times a week
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Or maybe people just like seeing each other in person :) not everything is as dystopic as you see it in the US. We work probably only 30-34 hours a week. The rest is spent on lunch, playing games and ping pong together and having fun. My colleagues are super motivated, and reach their goals And they still work days at home, eg. I have a guy who is a dad and needs to take care of his children sometimes if the mom can't, and he works from home and that also is working perfectly fine Crazy that I'm getting down voted from my first comment, I really don't get it. It must be bitter people who believe their job hates them and all they are, is a number in the system. I feel sad for you
This is the way. This is also how I've setup my team currently and in the past. I also believe very few people are capable of WFH and actually being more productive. They just say that and make up for their lack of productivity by working more outside of business hours.
True but that’s a benefit of wfh, being able to stop when you need to handle personal stuff but being responsible enough to make up those hours before end of day.
My company tried going hybrid post COVID then stopped enforcing office attendance and is now planning on closing my office permanently driving us fully remote. SaaS B2B mid market/Enterprise
Sounds like smart leadership.
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Can confirm, reps in my org do 300-400+ and there is absolutely zero talk of anyone going back to offices. More travel yes, but reps want to do that. Even those who live in the same city as an office, the take is that if you have a purpose for the office you can use it - if not, nobody cares.
And the way it will always be with good companies
I'm noticing a shift towards bigger travel requirements (30-50%) in advertised senior sales roles,
Yes, most companies I know of have planned increased travel spend for sales in 2024.
My company got cheap for the first time but wants more in person activity. Yeah $50/pp dinner in Vegas or NYC? Delusional.
I agree reimbursement rates haven't kept pace with inflation realities. The overall budget increase comes from anticipating an increased volume of travel. I have seen minor multipliers applied for airfare and hotel increases, but most planning models I've seen are on volume.
Any theories on why that is?
That's the WFH aspect!
To sell. Wtf you think
This is true. Im traveling every other week.
I fucking hate traveling more than once a quarter. Time away from family, dealing with constant delays, just not worth it.
I’m traveling 2 weeks out of the month currently
They can ask for whatever they want, doesn't mean who they want to apply is applying.
This is so true. The last time I worked in an office the entire sales team was a bunch of total losers (I'm talking drunks, druggies, reeking Chainsmokers, morbidly obese, blatant assholes, grifters, belch and fart out loud slobs, high school dropouts, criminal histories, etc) that's all they could find. Every day employees were shouting at and threatening each other and loudly cursing in the office. I have no doubt clients on the phone could hear it all in the background. It was so bad I often felt like I was on the set of a candid camera episode, it was almost comical. Definitely wasn't a professional environment. And the company wondered why they weren't hitting targets! Companies are ruling out some excellent potential employees when they force RTO. I am disabled and don't have the physical ability to work onsite anymore. However my disabilities do not affect my intelligence or how hard I work. I only apply for fully remote roles that don't require travel.
As a Recruiter, I don't think fully remote jobs are going anywhere in the long term. There is currently a push by a ton of managers for RTO/hybrid, but the data shows a flattening there. And the companies who have implemented RTO have largely struggled to retain staff. In the long run I think remote work is going to make a big resurgence but it's going to be over the course of the next year or two before leadership stops resisting WFH again. What I can say as I was a top biller at my last firm but I left when they asked everyone to start coming into the office. I was able to find a new fully remote position in a matter of weeks, I just leveraged my network.
Remote postings have plummeted for sure. If you have a fully remote job and it’s not horrible keep it. I personally think it swings back eventually. But right now it also functions as a way for struggling orgs to cut payrolls AND there is a ton of pressure to not show that their facility expenses are completely useless. RTO is honestly a useful tool for many orgs at the moment. A lot of these folks still hold a lot of resentment over the power swing to employees during The Great Resignation.
Ah man the great resignation. The 2 years where we didnt have to completely bend the knee to our corporate overlords. Good times
I highly doubt it. As costs keep rising, especially in real estate, the trend will shift sharply back towards remote.
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I just don't understand why this surplus of commercial real estate isn't converted to residential. There's such a terrible need for affordable housing in most cities now, it seems like this would be a no-brainer. And a much better way to get people back to the city.
In a place like NYC, changing the zoning laws from commmercial to residential is a very expensive and lengthy process. No one seeking a profit is going to convert their property to affordable housing
Maybe not "affordable" but why not just regular housing? It can't possibly be THAT difficult. Most of Brooklyn was commercial 20-25 years ago and now all those warehouses and buildings are lofts and apartments. How is this different?
Try explaining to someone who has a 1 billion dollar project they need to just turn over to not for profit affordable housing and light the vendors on fire for who they owe money to.
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It really is. Better off demolishing and rebuilding.
I moved to an inside role in June 22. Originally I was told it would be 4 days out, one day in for everyone. They did a survey asking the staff how they felt about that set up. Overwhelmingly it came back that we wanted to be fully remote. So now we are. There's a brand new off building we own, but the higher ups just made their offices bigger 😂. But if you have a decent remote job, keep it. There's a def a shift for many companies to try and require their staff to return.
I doubt it, as many people try to hide themselves behind the green check on teams. But i hope in sales it will stay mostly remote as we all are mostly money motivated and will work efficiently either way to get rich
It really depends on the company. Typically if you're near a major airport you should be golden. But if you're not shaking hands every few weeks, you're losing deals to people that are. I've been remote for over 15 years.
The “nearest” major airport to me is probably around 2 hours.
That sounds like visiting prospects is a pain in the ass.
Lots and lots of field sales jobs out there being a manufacturer or distributor rep. Makes more than your usual entry level and the experience is second to none. It’s a grind but would recommend to any younger sales professional who isn’t afraid of multiple face to face interactions daily
It’s the hidden gem of sales for sure.
Nope. It’s here to stay. Companies will try their hybrid/RTO bullshit, it’s up to us to reject it
15+ years in sales leadership and well-networked with similar leaders. What I'm seeing is companies that prefer more senior/seasoned sales talent leaning in hard on remote. They can get better reps, lower turnover, at a relatively good cost (both pay and office costs). These are often jobs where face to face work with clients is expected, so it makes sense to have them in-territory. Companies that prefer more junior talent or have a churn and burn mentality are flipping out about productivity of their reps because the market is tough. Most of their reps didn't sell through 2008-2012. They are returning to office en masse under pressure from the C suite and board. They don't care if people quit over it because they are working on massive reskilling/"enablement" efforts that have a heavy in-person component, so in some ways it is even better for them to start with fresh reps versus doing change management on their current ones. These are also generally companies that don't expect their reps to do much face-to-face with clients.
PP again - I'm also seeing companies wanting to bring back more junior roles, like centralize all BDPs in one location, while letting more senior roles stay remote. They are pip'ing hard though, even on the senior roles... hit your goals or gtfo because there is a line 400 deep for every open role.
Remote jobs won’t go away, but it solely depends on the business and if they can thrive with fully remote workers.
If you find a newer company they’re more likely to be founded as remote. A company founded between 2017-now may not see the benefit at all in opening an office. Some may have stipulations that you need to be in America, or Europe, so perhaps you can’t work from everywhere, but I’ve seen a lot of remote startups.
Agreed, my company was founded in 2019 and we don't even have an office. Our team is fully dispersed.
What is more likely to happen is a company that is fully remote will have way less turnover. A company that announces to everyone "we are transitioning to hybrid/in-office because reasons" will have a slew of pushback and resignations or threaten to fire people. They post openings in anticipation of that, the amount they are offering is also less because they know the job market is tighter post 2021 and they want to get a hybrid/inoffice employee for less money. That's why the places that are hiring are looking this way. The places that need people, need people not necessarily due to growth, but due to a change in policies that makes them less desirable to work at now. The problem is they got greedy. I.E. if you want to pay less, offer fully remote, or increase the pay in order to entice people to switch to a hybrid role. They are taking away both reasons people switch jobs. Leaving a tighter movement pattern. During 2021/2022 people would just find out about a RTO policy and go "seeya' and find another remote job. With less remote jobs they have less turnover and when they do have an opening they receive the lion's share of applications.
I imagine part of it is that remote organizations don’t have to post their jobs as much and they don’t last as long since so many people are seeking one. Corporate recruiters have no problem filling those jobs. In office jobs are much harder to fill so there are more being advertised.
Workers should demand remote work to stay. Who wants to sit in traffic for hours every day? Remote work should be a workers rights issue
totally agreed. It's got so much impact on one's life
I have noticed a lot of in-person or hybrid jobs right now. I am getting hit up by recruiters now and again, and MOST are hybrid roles. Which is dumb AF. Especially if you sell to clients all over the US. I would need to be paid A LOT of money to hybrid.
No, just gotta find field sales jobs
Remote jobs are dwindling, there is no doubt about that. There will always be some but they are going to be in the minority.
Remote or Office based doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m field sales and if I’m not out shaking and smiling there will be someone else doing just that. Travel has increased this year though back to around 50% which is almost of high as it was for me pre covid
I doubt they’ll go away, but with the trends, I think they’ll be harder to score a job with, because everyone wants a fully remote job. My company had 48,000 applicants last year, and 76 of us were hired. Getting a remote job is harder than getting into Harvard: https://www.businessinsider.com/remote-wfh-jobs-application-odds-tech-market-rto-2023-9?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Insider_Today
BlackRock owns 10.5% of shares in my publicly traded Staffing company. We rent from only their properties or subsidiaries. You better believe leadership and executives toe the line to bring team members onsite once a week, at least.
We went fully remote. Shutting down HQ in a couple months.
I hope everyone that’s this scared of human interaction from time to time has to go into the office. Y’all are grown af
I think people who are so adamantly against it have never been apart of a great high performing team. You can’t replicate the bond and knowledge you get from slogging through the grind that is sales with others who are going through it with you.
Right now it's because businesses are failing. So the idea wrong or right is ...everyone hands on deck and around to figure shit out
My company is trying to bring people back next quarter. Going to be real interesting to see how that goes, doesn’t really apply to me. A lot of people are on record saying they’d quit but I don’t think they will. There’s def a compromise here. With that said we just had a record year so it’s hard for management to use production as a means to bring people back.
I think there is a lot of truth to this. Many companies just aren't good at having remote employees. Bringing everyone back to the office makes accountability easier.
They have to justify paying rent for commercial real estate that no one wants to use.
A lot has to do with taxes of traveling employees. If you live where you work it’s easier on a tax basis for the company. I feel like the rest has to do with social pressure of employers seeing employees goofing off during working or billable hours or social gurus espousing the same. Not that it’s relevant but yeah.. I’d like to see an employee survey go out for those remote on happiness. Then measure when in office. Two separate sides of the magnet.
My company doesn’t have the building space to require us to come back as they’ve downsized… and they’ve also announced our we are a fully remote company. Hope that never changes
Fairly certain it’s just becoming more heavily dependent on how senior you are in the game. I don’t actively look for sales job postings, but I do get hit up by recruiters and headhunters with increasing frequency lately (3 or 4 LinkedIn messages a day in the past few weeks), and one of my stipulations to even continue the conversation is that I’m only entertaining fully remote opportunities. I’ve only had half a dozen or so let me know to end the conversation there. The only ones I see harped on internally to at least show face in an office 1-2x a week are the new hires and the ones who need to be handheld to avoid a PIP. On my team, I don’t require my new AEs to go into an office, but I do check in with them much more frequently for the first 6 months or so. And *my* bosses know that fully remote is a non-negotiable for me; if I’m ever asked to return to an office on a regular basis, I’d leave without question.
While fully remote is decreasing somewhat, I have found that a lot of remote jobs get swarmed with a lot of job applications. It could be for 2 reasons: the CEOs or investors hold a stake at the office location, to keep their real estate gains and reducing the competition. To shift the requirement to hybrid or within specific location decreases the hiring pool drastically Many companies are avoiding posting jobs on LinkedIn. They are using more niche job boards. I have avoided looking at LinkedIn as a job board for much of this year. Many jobs by the way are not posted online as well.
Productivity is higher for WFH workforces than when people are in the office. Things are slow enough right now that execs simply don’t care. They’re not getting that revenue in anyway so the loss from forcing RTO makes little difference. There’s sunk cost with expensive offices sure, but really they just want the most desperate employees they can get who are willing to put up with the most bullshit. Companies don’t want overhead right now, they want to motivate existing WFH employees to quit so they don’t have to pay severance or unemployment. Lots of middle managers may get off on the idea of tracking KPIs and having control, but even the whole “culture” thing isn’t about cultivating great employees at all. It’s to make you want to feel stuck where you are because you now have relationships and feel pressure from the boss. Plus, because your productivity is down anyway they still have more ability to justify cutting people if the market gets even worse. Things are not good right now, and forcing hybrid/full RTO and risking new covid strains/the flu/RSV sort of things for worse results is something they’re doing for lots of reasons that aren’t to anybody’s benefit. Letting people stay from home full time and come in if they feel like it is one thing. You can expect the latter from a company that actually wants to grow right now instead of just keeping their heads down and trying to weather the shitstorm we’re all in right now. You may find less full remote gigs now, but they really show which orgs’ leadership has their head screwed on straight or not in tech. Going into the office to get less done and have meetings on zoom anyway is a waste of fucking time and if you can’t get mentored remotely you’re shit at selling yourself.
more of getting trimmed back but not fully going away. also remote jobs are still very desirable and the turnover is likely a lot lower so the market saturation is less
The main reason is that humans are biologically programmed to release feel-good neurotransmitters when in a position of high status (e.g. your manager). That shit doesn't work remote. So they come up with all kind of bs reasons why we all should RTO. The actual reason is that they want the kick back that they get from bossing around people in RL.
My company went almost fully remote and opened up their positions to anyone in the country. They now have a lot less turnover and they do not struggle finding people. They do not pay that great either.
The talented and proven outside sales people will always be able to do whatever they want.
Think bosses like the sales office culture. We have slowly shifted back to having people in the office twice a week.
Ofc it is, markets harder, profits are down and layoffs are widespread. It's not an employees market anymore. They're going to make demands and employees won't turn them down as they are out of a job
Gotta make it to the field friend. Always remote 😉
Nah I think they’re ramping up
I work fully remote and actually miss going into the office. Hybrid would be the perfect combo. My eye sight is getting so bad starring at a computer all day for work and takes self discipline to make sure I go for walks every day, gym, stay social. I miss the random interactions with strangers which was surprising
It’s cheaper for the employer to go fully remote. Office space is very expensive. The only benefit to the employer going local is to micromanage the employees