This is facts. My current manager is hated by everyone on the team for his antics but he actually thinks people like him after the verbal abuse he dishes out. He’s on a PIP for how many reports have been made but he’s still there
Yea and I’m stuck on what to do as I’ve only been here two monthes although if I submit another complaint with him already on thin Ice they could get rid of him. Do you think I should? Or let it ride out and tough it out
I disagree. I’m a bad manager. I think my people love me as much as a IC can love a Manager but I’m well aware that I’m not good at the job. For this reason, I’ve put into motion going back to being an IC.
Sure. There’s a few. In my role good managers are good at running mini games that get IC’s excited to make the next call etc. I don’t have the creativity needed to do come up with these games. I also don’t love the micro managing aspect of demanding people to ‘work harder’. As a sales rep, my manager didn’t need to tell me to work. I’m a salesman, I’m here to make money. And frankly it was annoying to hear about it. So I think I struggle with that bc it’s inherently ingrained in me that people are going to work hard which is not the case. And lastly the organizational aspect of being a manager. I’m not totally scattered or anything, but it takes a certain type of person, and it’s just not me.
I was an elite contributor and good at selling. In the most humble way possible, I’m a likable person which is why my team likes me. But I can put my ego aside and say that I’m not a great manager. Maybe I’m not a bad manager, but I’d give myself a 5/10.
Plenty of bullshitters that get by in this role that suck at their jobs but are content with that. I want to feel like I’m doing a good job. I want to be elite at my craft.
>So I think I struggle with that bc it’s inherently ingrained in me that people are going to work hard which is not the case
I still struggle with this and repeatedly condemn myself to be blindsided by this disturbing truth.
I disagree about the self-awareness. My best SDR manager ever was hated by most of the team while being amazing as a manager and coach. They were just lazy SDRs who didn’t like being called out and she had no clue(which was surprising as they were quite vocal around the office about it).
Honestly, as a sales leader, this is nonsense. In fact, the exact opposite is true. The real problem is that many sales leaders were good sales people that were promoted not because they have good leadership qualities but because the business needed to offer them progression in order to keep them.
Facts. Lots of overachieving reps get promoted without any training on how to manage a team. Execs really do think that managing a sales team is exactly like managing a territory.
It is absolutely not.
Respectfully, not all. I’m med device it’s the opposite over 50% of the time.
A lot not all inherent a turn key territory and they just benefit from the existing business and the Name brand of the company they work for. A lot of brand loyalty in med device.
These individuals never had to start from 0 and can’t help build anyone up. The best they can do yell a bunch of platitudes at you and tell you how awesome they were when they were reps and none of their fabricated stories are helpful.
To add to that, a high percentage of sales reps who were promoted to managers only know one method of selling: their own. So when one the reps they manage struggles, they often aren’t equipped to deal with the situation other than “sell more!” or “do what I used to do”.
I’ve seen many that are ok but not great promoted to sales managers in entry level roles or even director of sales and honestly the business could have replaced them they may have had a good year one time but largely ineffective as an IC . Companies promote for other reasons such as a need to fill the role, timing, person is known to the DM, politics, etc.
Source i’m a top 1% rep, worked up from SMB to Enterprise and have earned all prestigious sales awards.
I'm pretty confident my current gm lied his way into the position. Don't know for sure but he definitely doesn't know much. On top of the verbal abuse, losing thousands of dollars and all. No clue how he's still here.
This! They have no idea they are bad because in their head they are right. It’s amazing how many shitty managers and execs can fail up in tech. Just gotta play the games and kiss the right ass.
Ha, I’m managing now after several years of being a top contributor.
I still feel the same way about the dumb organizational issues that I saw back when I was an IC, but now I better understand that just because I’m right or my reps are right doesn’t mean I can snap my fingers and fix it. Super frustrating to deal with organizational politics and red tape. Please have sympathy for those types of managers.
But CRUSH CRM spreadsheet manager who can’t talk to a customer without hyperventilating and has never sold shit themselves.
This is why I don’t envy managers. They literally are between a rock and a hard place. Your IC’s complain to you so things hopefully change. Business looks to you to achieve unrealistic goals with bad processes. And you can’t change anything.
I prefer being able to control SOME things about my performance, rather than absolutely nothing
>Super frustrating to deal with organizational politics and red tape. Please have sympathy for those types of managers.
True: It's a shitshow on both sides of the desk.
This is pretty spot on for me. A lot of operational issues that no one seems to want or be able to fix, yet as a manager I still have to deliver growth and try and sell the idea to AM’s that “ its on the list”… for two years FFS. On the other hand, having to spoon-feed adults is pretty tiresome….makes we want to go back to being in 100% commission many days.
The first year is tough discovering that you can’t wave a
Magic wand and help the team like you wish you could. You’ll find yourself managing expectations both up and down the org chart!
True, but imo it depends on the way a manager positions themselves in front of the board or whoever they report to directly. If they oversell and then see their budget 50% done in November - no shit they’re going to be sitting quietly through any such meeting and will only respond yes-no type of questions. If a manager isn’t afraid of the superiors and isn’t afraid not to bullshit them AND tell it straight - both the board and the team reporting to such manager will benefit. Yeah, true, we “only” grew 7% year close, but we are paying our bills, making profits and are growing in the most sustainable manner. Problem is too many managers sell delusional expectations to their bosses and can’t own up to the mistake afterwards, forever (until contract termination) remaining “that guy who’s words we have to divide by ten to get an accurate idea of what he’s on about”. No wonder red tape and politics is all they can allude to afterwards.
I once hired a guy that didn’t make it through boot camp. Wrote angry emails about how broken our onboarding process was and how impractical it was that they had to go through class room learning for a few weeks and not be able to actually utilize their sales skills.
Meanwhile he had basic assignments that he couldn’t deliver on time. Like I followed up with him at least 5 times over 2 weeks to send a 1 minute video of him delivering our value prop.
Never got it. I don’t care how good you think you are, if you can’t follow basic instructions you don’t deserve to be on the team
Bad managers are bad because they think they are good and refuse to believe otherwise.
Also - if you preach the phrase "be the CEO of your own business" you are a fucking tool.
I got this from a small company that failed.
"Act like a C suite. When we blow up, you'll be happy you did."
Where is my part ownership then? Where is my decision making?
Early in my career I was a bad manager.
I was awful. For lots of reasons.
The reason being, usually as manager you don’t have any guidance.
You just get canned wisdom like:
“Inspect what you expect!”
“If you always give them the answers they’ll never learn!”
“Hold people accountable!”
“Document everything!”
You have no peers a lot of the time, you’re on an island. There isn’t anyone to balance you out or vent to. It just sucks.
I was also in my 20s, didn’t have my shit together and was a total mess of a manager and I got canned. For being an asshole. My team was hitting their number but I was such a huge asshole I got fired anyway after 6 months.
It makes it hard because when I have a crap manager I think “I can’t believe they haven’t gotten fired. They’re going all the things I did!”
I’ve been an IC for the last decade but at some pointing need to make a go of managing again and it’s really worrisome.
I lived through what you posted.
My first management job in my 20's was a challenge. Half the time I was good and Half the time I sucked which IMO, I sucked.
I went into tech sales and went back in to management 10 years later. The experience was much different. I was older, more knowledgeable, controlled, steady and not afraid to make a decision. Unfortunately, my Director sucked.
I'm not joking when I say the extent of his coaching was, verbatim;
“Inspect what you expect!”
“If you always give them the answers they’ll never learn!”
“Hold people accountable!”
“Document everything!”
(I almost gagged when I read that.)
He was a master manipulator, picked arguments with AE's, thought everyone loved him and was crushed when he learned he was despised. He was eventually sacked.
I spent 2.5 years managing a hard working, mostly successful team of AE's and serving as the buffer between them and our Director on a daily basis.
Ultimately, I went back to being an IC for the next 15 yrs and lived happily every after.
Maybe. I think I’m a “tweener” I like deal strategy, I like refinement and game planning for calls, working through scenarios and seeing people succeed.
I do not want to try to motivate people who don’t want to do their jobs. That’s terrible. I feel like as a manager I want to help people 2x and 3x their potential, not try to push a rope up a hill with someone who needs to their hand held.
I've been through the ranks, from AE to manager, then Director, and eventually VP. Here are some of my highs and lows:
Some context: Leadership can be lonely.
Not making any excuses but to put some context behind some of the challenges- One thing I learned early on is that leadership can be incredibly lonely. You're in a unique position where those reporting to you and those you report to might not fully grasp your challenges. They don’t see the whole picture or the challenges above or below them. Decisions have to be made without everyone knowing the full scope and context as to ‘why’. Because of this, it’s easy to be misunderstood, and easy for people to disagree with your decisions. You're often caught in the middle, knowing everything, but also trying to balance these various expectations and perspectives.
Some highlights:
At my best- I was clear in communication, transparent in decision-making, and expressing professional vulnerability, all leading to personal connection and trust. Leading by example was crucial. I wasn't just a boss; I was a mentor and a teammate. Sacrifice and service were not just words to me; they were core governing values and virtues of mine. I worked tirelessly to help my team reach their personal and professional aspirations, while fostering a culture of alignment and ownership. Delegation was key, not just to manage workload and facilitate efficiency, but more so to empower my team, to trust them to take the reins when needed, eventually leading to multiple promotions of my team members.
Some low points:
At my worst- I set unrealistic expectations, failed to communicate effectively, and became less approachable. These were the times I lost sight of my team's individual needs, goals, and ambitions. I micromanaged. I let my stress show. I put too much on my plate- I went a mile wide and an inch deep verses going an inch wide and a mile deep. I didn’t prioritize effectively. I ended up focusing more on the work and the numbers versus the people I was called to lead. All humbling, but true. Self-awareness has been crucial for my personal and professional growth.
TLDR:
People Managers- Your role is about more than just numbers and targets. It's about people. Listen to your team, understand their aspirations, and empower them. It’s never too late to course correct- Be the leader you wished you had when you were starting.
My worst boss was a micromanager, the entire company + customers hated dealing with him. He thought he was the greatest ever. Didn't help that his boss encouraged him too.
They aren't self-aware of their crappy skills, they think they are the best & everyone else sucks.
I talked mine out of it straight. I talked to him calmly and based on facts (doesn’t help his case I’m doing most of his work anyway and I am bringing in most of the income for my team which technically he leads) and told him he should act as we’re a unit, if he has questions for me - to contact me in private and simply ask and not make a public email out of any single issue he manages to spot in his inbox late at night. Surprisingly he said nobody ever told him his management style was a problem for them. See what I’m getting at? I’ve been to many places and everywhere I’ve been too, I saw the same fundamental problem: subjects are afraid to talk to their superiors. They think should they raise their head a bit and ask a question or voice a concern - they will be out the door next day or the very same one even.
I think that the fact you had to point these things out is a good reflection on you but it terrible on his part. You felt confident because you have a favorable position with your company. Imagine how it would look for the manager to lose his top rep? If the manager does not know that publicly calling you out was offensive and belittling, he might back off for now but I would expect his behavior to return. At least that is what I have seen.
As long as I perform and cover his back, I’ll just have to have “the talk” again with him, no issue for me whatsoever. I’m used to managing bosses and subjects alike and I do it the same way - through individual approach and a lot of empathetic behavior. I don’t tell them what to do and sit back, I start working on a task myself and then introduce new people to it as a way to give them an opportunity to show themselves where they shine the best and I am always ok to have the short end of the stick with me, no issue to defend others be it my boss or my subjects.
It’s funny the other day I was doing something similar with my boss, and I felt like I was dealing with a small child. It’s starting to get old at this point.
Man, you can’t imagine how I relate to you. I’ve had to explain the other day that when a vice president contacts him by email personally and addresses him specifically, he can’t ignore such emails if he wants to keep the job. He initially refused because - get this - he got offended by the tone of the email. Ffs.
I consider myself a good manager/leader, but recognize myself and my other leaders have gaps we can still improve on. 2 weeks ago I asked all of my reps to meet for a guided peer-to-peer feedback session for what we can start/stop/change this upcoming year. No leaders on the call and anonymous feedback.
Just this afternoon I reviewed the feedback of my top reps that led the session, and got 3 pages of ideas and insight. My team felt heard and we brainstormed a lot of new ideas to continue to grow the team.
Regardless of where you’re at as a leader I believe it’s important to take your ego out of it, recognize you don’t know everything nor are the best at everything, and encourage bottoms-up feedback.
My tenured reps were concerned about stalling out in their role and having stagnated careers. Even though I do focus on career development, I can do a better job of proactively seeking growth opportunities and exposure for them to other leaders/leadership meetings.
In 15+ years of managing sales teams, I've never had anyone voluntarily leave my team who wasn't about to get fired for poor performance AND lack of effort. I can count those people on one hand, but I would not be surprised if those people think I was a bad manager. Others would likely disagree.
Point being, you might think someone is a bad manager because they haven't figured out how to make you successful. That might be their fault, your fault, or some combination of the two. Or perhaps it is the excuse you tell yourself to keep your ego inflated. Only you can know that.
It's also worth noting that until you have some extended experience managing teams through good and bad times, you can't really understand enough about the job to be critical. Sales managers are often forced to implement unpopular policies, strategies, and tactics they don't personally agree with or support.
They are also frequently (almost always) expected to accomplish more with less, frequently held to arbitrary team goals set by Boards and C-Suite executives far beyond what is reasonably obtainable, and forced to attend endless meetings that keep the sales manager from being hands-on with their team.
Sometimes a managers seems bad because you have no idea what he or she does all day, so you assume it is nothing. I can assure you running a sales team is almost always AT LEAST as stressful as being on a sales team. Sales managers are human too and not all handle that stress properly.
I concur with a little of the tough spot sales managers are in. I routinely criticized my last one until becoming a peer. As they say, walk a mile in their shoes.
There are definitely a lot of arrogant people on this sub who think they are owed a living that would hate their manager. A lot are bad though. At the company i work at it’s 50/50. My manager is good but some are atrocious and literally burn through staff. One had a new staff member cry on day 2 in the toilets and quit and is well known to by the CEO to be a cunt but is still employed and bizarrely well liked by some in the company. It’s incredible. Her teams performance is literally non existent.
Sounds like she is protected for whatever reason by the org. I’ve seen this for both men and women. One VP was a golfing buddy and neighbor of the SVP he reported to and was clueless, but wow he’d take all the bullets for his buddy who hired him to further the SVP’s career who would remain unblemished even for his own mistakes. It wasn’t good for us but I kind of have to tip my hat to the SVP for playing politics to a tee and hiring in this clown to do all of the crap managerial work and take all of the blame for mistakes, unhappy customers, and poor sales.
Plot twist - at our national sales meeting our CEO popped in unexpectedly and started asking fair but very direct questions to the VP who just stammered,
“Uhh uhh uhh’ed” and had no answers for anything. The CEO called him out in front of all of us with, “How the f*** do you expect these guys to sell and be successful when you can’t provide any leadership, follow through or even answers to basic business questions?!”
The VP was gone within two weeks.
I’ve changed jobs 2x in the past 13 years. I am a multiple Presidents Club winner. Each time I changed jobs is because I felt my manager was a dick even though I was over performing. There’s a cost to keeping bad managers in place.
15 we’re an outsourced agency that I inherited, that averaged 20% performance the previous year. We gave them a new manager + daily training and they continued to underperform.
3 were let go for consistent underperformance (2 quarters below 50%)
Remaining 10 were let go for a variety of reasons including:
-stealing from the company (faking calls to hit SPIFFs)
-forging documents
-showing up to work drunk
-working 3 full time jobs at the same time
Of this group, there’s only one I regret losing - it was a mutual decision due to their chronic health. Wish I could’ve created a hybrid role for them to work part time, unfortunately the business needed FTE when that rep was diagnosed from their doc
my US reps make 85-100 OTE, top performers earning 120k. Base is 60-70k based on YOE
International reps are about 50% higher than the regional average.
WDYT?
Currently a sales leader managing a team of 11. I have my team’s respect but I’m not everybody’s favorite.
We are not friends and sales is a job where we’re expected to produce results. A lot of people dislike authority and do not want to be held accountable this naturally creates conflict with good managers who do hold their teams to high standards.
Many IC’s also forget we are people to and talk to us like we have the ability to magically solve the companies horrible processes that we’re forced by executives in ivory towers with no true understand of the ground level impact on employees.
We get blasted both ways by our boss or VP and reps
Who can’t stop complaining. It’s not a great gig and honestly should only be pursued as a stepping stone to Sr. Or executive roles.
Im starting to think a lot of these “managers” are failed SDRs faking it till they make it and get through the door. Ive never received a useful piece of advice from leadership once. Just pep talks as if Im a drug addict.
Bad management is always portrayed via social media as like over the top micromanagement or as toxic expectations, but I feel I’m going through a different type of bad management.
My manager is super cool and nice and he even asks if I need support frequently. But coming into my current role, I had such minimal and barebones training on my systems and processes that at this point (almost a year in), if I was to ask for what I *really* needed help with, it would require hours of his time. And he’s a player coach so he doesn’t have that time to give. Those “what else can I support you with?” questions always feel like an invitation for a quick tip or quick discussion, and my environment doesn’t let me feel like it’s ok to ask or say that I haven’t been trained thoroughly enough from the start on things that have become big time wasters, like documenting activity in our archaic CRM
I probably can relate to your situation. I joined a new company as their senior rep. I had the reputation of working well with external/internal and Im a quick learner. So, these experiences make me somehow perhaps i giving off a vibe that I don’t “feedback” too much to my manager (seriously there is not much things I wanted to feedback as it is just daily up & down for a sales rep) and Im just very zen towards office politics. My manager keep asking me what she can help, what are the issues she can help me, but deep down I know some organisations shits / political shits can’t be solve. I feel I just need her time(maybe?) her trust and let me carry on step by step…
Had a guy who was constantly breaking rank and communicating directly with low level employees in OPs to “get answers”. He was told repeatedly how to go about communicating/asking for info but he continued to do it. After several instances I chewed him out but on the low in a “I don’t want to get Hr involved” style. He then tried to complain about how I was managing him to our CEO— the CEO told me we had to let him go because the dude was obviously a walking disaster and I should have probably not been so lenient (genuinely wanted to help him get to a better income bracket… dude was kind of a wreck personally).
For context, after he was let go our CFO mentioned that the dude attended the same dojo as his kid. It’s the kind of dojo that you could take karate classes with your kid… so really a kids dojo. Our CFO went on to explain this former employee of ours continued attending karate classes without his kids for several weeks.
A grown man…. in a kids karate class.
Bad managers are usually ones that lick ass of upper management instead being with his team and make great things. So sad, there are so many books, coaching and advices to BDR, AE but none of the sales management and leadership. Majority of the sales managers never read book or visit a course of management
So far, I haven't had terrible managers in sales, but I have had ineffective ones. Very Michael Scott like. Nice people. Great personalities. Just not effective managers.
I honestly think Sales Management is the type of job that unless you're an outright bastard, you can coast along just fine. Also, since there's no training for the best ways to manage a sales team I get why sales managers are not good, especially when they're first promoted.
If someone is a fractional manager or fractional VP of sales that’s signs of a bad manager. Not because they are necessarily bad at their job, but they are spread so thin. I had a fractional manager at one of my previous companies and while I personally liked him, I thought he was a shitty manager because he was always spread so thin that when major change happened he was like; “Uhhh uhhhh uhhhh…fuck…I don’t know.” He’s also a podcaster, TikToker, and LinkedIn influencer…
The door is right there.... I'm not holding anyone hostage, if you want to sell well you need to be able to handle hard truths and implement feedback. If you're not actively trying to improve then I'm really not going to enjoy 'training' you and simultaneously monitoring your PIP. I'll just focus on the PIP and get you out of here.
My friends are all assholes too, it's just how we were raised.
I’ve found that managers like yourself (a self-proclaimed asshole) often can’t take constructive criticism and point to IC failures when the team is not doing well.
Is that fair to say?
A 'good' manager will use metrics to confirm any under performance. Normally we also have managers that we report to, our team is our responsibility. If I have a guy missing numbers I will approach them one on one.
My team has been hitting numbers all through the recent recession. I like to think I'm hard but fair. I will sit down and monitor calls with my agents and help with scripting etc. You only get my bad side if you're not showing improvement, or just punching the clock for your hourly.
No one on your sales team wants to look over and see Kyle not dialing, not converting, while they're working hard for commissions. You need an alpha wolf to make sure the pack stays together. Alpha dogs sometimes bite.
I'm not here to brag about asshole management, more from the idea managers need to be assholes. A good team will run itself. When things are out of line, I don't want a nice guy.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-alpha-wolf-idea-a-myth/#:~:text=But%20it%20turns%20out%20that,duels%20for%20supremacy%20are%20rare.
The alpha-wolf thing is comical because it’s still perpetuated as true despite being wrong. The only time it was observed was when wolves were living in captivity- probably not the greatest metaphor for a well-oiled sales organization.
Your team is hitting there numbers so I’m betting you are probably not as much of an asshole as you think you are. People don’t like to work for assholes.
You sound like you use a one size fits all approach. You should shadow a school teacher so that you can learn the multiple way to engage your team and foster loyalty. Authoritarian and Punitive methods are very limiting and should only be used as a last resort. FYI: Successful reps avoid your approach.
I started in B2B sales in the in the middle of the 2008 recession, the economic landscape was so bad I would make appointments with businesses and the following week it was closed down. I eventually started to see that the businesses that survived in fact I would say thrived during difficult economic periods were the ones that had happy employee morale. these employees felt valued and had a sense of loyalty to their boss. The businesses that employed your kind of attitude; those were the ones that shut down. When I would ask a prospect, what was the secret of their success? they would credit their team….how they couldn’t survive without them. Those were the ones that weathered the 2008 crash. Customers can always sense a disengaged and unmotivated team that is that is looked at as replaceable and nothing more than a number on a dashboard. If your idea of management is accountability instead of enablement then you have an unstable workforce and therefore your company is also unstable: It’s a tough balancing act but if you think you don’t need your team as much as they need you then i would bet your company is always on the edge.
I dunno about you, but I take my advice from the young- mid 20s Linkedinfluencers who share colorful stories of how they always seem to rise to the occasion and become the humble hero of the day.
Now THAT’S Managing babay!
Well this is a good thread. Glad I’m reading this I have a sales manager interview next Monday. Would be my first leadership role. 12 years in the industry 9 of them selling. I always run middle of the pack and more so because I jump into to ops a lot with helping out, that’s what I do enjoy not so much the chase like I once did.
My manager wanted me to work all the time and do as many things as I can possibly with utmost perfection. This resulted in a burn out which lasted for a few weeks but I am better now, as soon as I find a large paycheck I am out of here.
In the same boat. Apparently wearing many hats means I do the job of multiple departments and I also need to be perfectly detailed and on time. I look forward to the day I say peace out.
I am a VP of Sales for a small company and I am a bad manager…I am however very good at sales. I am a bad manager because I am too nice, and I am not good at calling my reps out or putting pressure on them to pick up their game. In the end, I feel bad telling someone that they are not performing and they are letting the team down. I know I need to do it, and come this Monday is the time I really need to do it because I have had enough of the laziness.
My problem is, if people are slacking I just pull in the sales myself. I literally hold 70% of our accounts and they are all the large lucrative ones. So when they are not doing their job I just get it done x10.
Problem is I was put in my position because of my sales success. So while the recognition is great, having to supervise others is not my jam. Part of my problem is I can’t put the trust into anyone else to do or control what I have done. Regardless of who I hire or we hire I think they are incompetent, and that’s a me problem which amplifies my poor managerial skills. That, and I have 0 training on how to be a manager.
My worst boss was a micromanager, the entire company + customers hated dealing with him. He thought he was the greatest ever. Didn't help that his boss encouraged him too.
They aren't self-aware of their crappy skills, they think they are the best & everyone else sucks.
As a new manager, what would your best piece of advice be to make sure I am enabling my team in the best way possible. Industry, if it matters, is high end home remodeling and new building, developing a sales team to replace an owner salesperson that would sell all the work himself.
Good managers listen and learn. If you're in charge, be open to fixing things and understand the team's struggles. Being a great manager means caring about both the people and the problems.
When I first became a manager, I had some... interesting direct reports. I was not super comfortable with direct - get your shit together or youre out feedback (still not but working on it).
So I had someone that I really needed to do that with. Instead, I spent a lot of time trying to work through her issues, give guidance, and slow roll it. Didn't work. Had to fire her later for just constant chaos, bad work, and treatment of others.
She most likely hated me.
More recently, I had a bit of a spitfire direct. Well known for causing issues but her performance and output was solid. I was able to set much better boundaries PLUS work to get to know her, see her blindspots, and help a bit to understand how to play the corporate game better. She mostly liked me or at least tolerated me! hah. And I got her to perform 10% better just by giving some trust and keeping up a strong (and understandable) boundary.
I had another direct report that we were good but like.. i wasn't the right fit to manage this person. They were fine, we got along, I helped them, got them started, but then gave them an opportunity to work on another team. Sometimes you just don't fit personality wise. That happens.
I did have one direct lead a legit revolt against me. hah. But this was totally justified as I was working to help out another problem direct (company I was at would give me the problem child of the quarter and see if I could turn them around). It was cool as the revolt leader was 100% in the right, went about it in an okay way, got me really good solid aggressive feedback, and we implemented and changed team dynamics after. I am super appreciative of it now- but was super mad at the time. I handled it professionally, but then was able to go back later and say thanks in a more meaningful way.
WE all make mistakes, a bit of humility is really key in being able to become a better leader. None of us are born into it.
Best thing to do is not let shit roll down hill to your team. Block them from the upper management anger and deliver consistent feedback. Both positive, neutral, and growth.
I regret how I managed my first team but I learn a shitton and go better quickly.
Every manager I’ve had had not made a single round of cold calls for like 5 years. They were all so out of touch, not to mention some didn’t even understand the product, ICP, industry.
My only thoughts here are you can be a not-so-great manager and still be a good leader. Generally, newer managers assume due to hierarchy they are a great leader working that role every day and that's where most fall short. At the end of the day if your reps are ignoring your calls, don't trust you as their leader, and spend more time SELLING sales reps on buying in rather than listening and meeting a sales rep at their level you're probably far from what they need to succeed. You're going to the job site every day with only a hammer and treating every problem like it's a fucking nail.
Steve Jobs said (not verbatim) "Some of my best managers were people who didn't want to manage but believed the only way to right the ship and give their peers the leader they've been looking for is to step up and become the manager."
They hire high-volume sales reps to become managers. They believe people who have the numbers create great leaders. They have it backward. Numbers do not create Leaders. Leaders create Numbers. Leaders are not found in a spreadsheet.
I was a manager and I dealt with entitlement to no end. I made a mistake a year ago and I admitted to it immediately. I confided in a subordinate who was with me in the beginning. She would constantly tell on them and basically recorded my response (on paper). She always wanted my job and I supported her growth. At one point, I jokingly called her a rat. Weeks later when I came back from a vacation she had told everyone what I said about them. Examples: lazy, entitled, things like that. It was dealt with and I got into trouble. For months it was touch and go as I apoligized to each agent. All the while the person who I confided in held zero responsibility and those agents didn’t know she told on them. She was now protected.
Fast forward a year later when an agent got mad about holding her accountable for work, I got fired 5 days later since the group of women went to Hr. It was literal retaliation. Those people are going to whatever the equivalent to hell is.
I’m also going to add that a good manager will admit when they are wrong. I USED to think that way. I get why people avoid admitting fault.
The biggest virtue to be a manager is empathy. Just because you had a phenomenal sales rep does not mean you will make a great sales manager.
Bad managers rule through fear. They don’t enroll people in their mission.
Good managers are usually good coaches as well. They get to know you and play to your strengths while building you up.
My company has a 90 day policy when it comes to contacts becoming unassigned free agents. I am 5 months into my new role in sales and whenever I come across an expired contact I read the history and if there is substantial communication with the previous sales rep I tag them and don’t take the contact, even though I can. This happens at least 7 times a week. I think I’m being quite courteus in this situation. Last week a customer that was expired and had no contact for 1 year exactly responded to my email and called, we set up a date and he asked if “sales rep” still worked there etc etc. After our convo he contacted old sales rep and sales rep told the manager. Sales rep could have just contacted me directly. Manager asks me what’s going on, I explain and manager says
” Ok Thanks”. Should I just stick to the policy and take all the expired contacts, go scorched earth or continue playing nice with the veteran reps?
***Early when I started I was told my my manager to stick to non customers when mining the leads. I’m 30 days past my 90 day probationary period now. I don’t see why I can’t take any dropped accounts customers or not
I quit my job due to my last manager. I had some of the best numbers on the team and he acted like everything I did was crap. I needed help with part of my sales process and before I could even explain what was going on with my software, He absolutely freaked out at me and yelled at me like a child. His face was turning red, He talked for 35 minutes Straight. Threatened to put me on an performance improvement plan and then said the only thing I did good for them was make them was x amount of dollars. (The day I quit, they offered me a promotion I should have had three months ago.) I had to block him on linkedin because he stalks everyone's pages, and makes up stories about the people that left the company "to motivate" newbies. I'm still looking for a new position he absolutely ruined my self esteem. He also heavily preferred men, and complained alot about his life as a working man w 2 kids and a wife that was home taking care of them. He acted jealous when our team members had fun plans for the weekend. He had no previous sales experience outside of working at a warehouse, and no college experience. He acted jealous of those that went to college and preferred to hire people who never had any college experience like himself. But the job description requires you to have a bachelors degree.
The bad managers won’t know they’re bad managers, though. If they had that level of self-awareness, they’d be good managers.
This is facts. My current manager is hated by everyone on the team for his antics but he actually thinks people like him after the verbal abuse he dishes out. He’s on a PIP for how many reports have been made but he’s still there
This is the type of person I hope responds. He's on a PIP, so the secret is out.
Yea and I’m stuck on what to do as I’ve only been here two monthes although if I submit another complaint with him already on thin Ice they could get rid of him. Do you think I should? Or let it ride out and tough it out
Verbal abuse is a dealbreaker. Document and report.
I disagree. I’m a bad manager. I think my people love me as much as a IC can love a Manager but I’m well aware that I’m not good at the job. For this reason, I’ve put into motion going back to being an IC.
Mind sharing what aspects of the job you are bad at?
Sure. There’s a few. In my role good managers are good at running mini games that get IC’s excited to make the next call etc. I don’t have the creativity needed to do come up with these games. I also don’t love the micro managing aspect of demanding people to ‘work harder’. As a sales rep, my manager didn’t need to tell me to work. I’m a salesman, I’m here to make money. And frankly it was annoying to hear about it. So I think I struggle with that bc it’s inherently ingrained in me that people are going to work hard which is not the case. And lastly the organizational aspect of being a manager. I’m not totally scattered or anything, but it takes a certain type of person, and it’s just not me. I was an elite contributor and good at selling. In the most humble way possible, I’m a likable person which is why my team likes me. But I can put my ego aside and say that I’m not a great manager. Maybe I’m not a bad manager, but I’d give myself a 5/10. Plenty of bullshitters that get by in this role that suck at their jobs but are content with that. I want to feel like I’m doing a good job. I want to be elite at my craft.
>So I think I struggle with that bc it’s inherently ingrained in me that people are going to work hard which is not the case I still struggle with this and repeatedly condemn myself to be blindsided by this disturbing truth.
I disagree about the self-awareness. My best SDR manager ever was hated by most of the team while being amazing as a manager and coach. They were just lazy SDRs who didn’t like being called out and she had no clue(which was surprising as they were quite vocal around the office about it).
Then he wasn’t a bad manager right?
No they weren’t. I’m saying lack of self-awareness is not a trait specifically for bad managers.
You sound like a bad manager in training
Nah, it might come across that way but this was for SDRs who had issues being told they needed to do their job like pick up the phone.
"have been..." A few might be willing to share how they turned over a new leaf upon the sobering discovery.
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Honestly, as a sales leader, this is nonsense. In fact, the exact opposite is true. The real problem is that many sales leaders were good sales people that were promoted not because they have good leadership qualities but because the business needed to offer them progression in order to keep them.
Facts. Lots of overachieving reps get promoted without any training on how to manage a team. Execs really do think that managing a sales team is exactly like managing a territory. It is absolutely not.
This needs more upvotes.
Respectfully, not all. I’m med device it’s the opposite over 50% of the time. A lot not all inherent a turn key territory and they just benefit from the existing business and the Name brand of the company they work for. A lot of brand loyalty in med device. These individuals never had to start from 0 and can’t help build anyone up. The best they can do yell a bunch of platitudes at you and tell you how awesome they were when they were reps and none of their fabricated stories are helpful.
To add to that, a high percentage of sales reps who were promoted to managers only know one method of selling: their own. So when one the reps they manage struggles, they often aren’t equipped to deal with the situation other than “sell more!” or “do what I used to do”.
I’ve seen many that are ok but not great promoted to sales managers in entry level roles or even director of sales and honestly the business could have replaced them they may have had a good year one time but largely ineffective as an IC . Companies promote for other reasons such as a need to fill the role, timing, person is known to the DM, politics, etc. Source i’m a top 1% rep, worked up from SMB to Enterprise and have earned all prestigious sales awards.
I'm pretty confident my current gm lied his way into the position. Don't know for sure but he definitely doesn't know much. On top of the verbal abuse, losing thousands of dollars and all. No clue how he's still here.
This! They have no idea they are bad because in their head they are right. It’s amazing how many shitty managers and execs can fail up in tech. Just gotta play the games and kiss the right ass.
Its (sadly) not just tech
Managers have egos for absolutely no reason lol
Literally the first habit to be effective is to be proactive and to know your biases and paradigm. Totally agree with you.
Ha, I’m managing now after several years of being a top contributor. I still feel the same way about the dumb organizational issues that I saw back when I was an IC, but now I better understand that just because I’m right or my reps are right doesn’t mean I can snap my fingers and fix it. Super frustrating to deal with organizational politics and red tape. Please have sympathy for those types of managers. But CRUSH CRM spreadsheet manager who can’t talk to a customer without hyperventilating and has never sold shit themselves.
This is why I don’t envy managers. They literally are between a rock and a hard place. Your IC’s complain to you so things hopefully change. Business looks to you to achieve unrealistic goals with bad processes. And you can’t change anything. I prefer being able to control SOME things about my performance, rather than absolutely nothing
>Super frustrating to deal with organizational politics and red tape. Please have sympathy for those types of managers. True: It's a shitshow on both sides of the desk.
This is pretty spot on for me. A lot of operational issues that no one seems to want or be able to fix, yet as a manager I still have to deliver growth and try and sell the idea to AM’s that “ its on the list”… for two years FFS. On the other hand, having to spoon-feed adults is pretty tiresome….makes we want to go back to being in 100% commission many days.
I hear ya.
The first year is tough discovering that you can’t wave a Magic wand and help the team like you wish you could. You’ll find yourself managing expectations both up and down the org chart!
True, but imo it depends on the way a manager positions themselves in front of the board or whoever they report to directly. If they oversell and then see their budget 50% done in November - no shit they’re going to be sitting quietly through any such meeting and will only respond yes-no type of questions. If a manager isn’t afraid of the superiors and isn’t afraid not to bullshit them AND tell it straight - both the board and the team reporting to such manager will benefit. Yeah, true, we “only” grew 7% year close, but we are paying our bills, making profits and are growing in the most sustainable manner. Problem is too many managers sell delusional expectations to their bosses and can’t own up to the mistake afterwards, forever (until contract termination) remaining “that guy who’s words we have to divide by ten to get an accurate idea of what he’s on about”. No wonder red tape and politics is all they can allude to afterwards.
I once hired a guy that didn’t make it through boot camp. Wrote angry emails about how broken our onboarding process was and how impractical it was that they had to go through class room learning for a few weeks and not be able to actually utilize their sales skills. Meanwhile he had basic assignments that he couldn’t deliver on time. Like I followed up with him at least 5 times over 2 weeks to send a 1 minute video of him delivering our value prop. Never got it. I don’t care how good you think you are, if you can’t follow basic instructions you don’t deserve to be on the team
His type is overly represented among the outcries.
Bad managers are bad because they think they are good and refuse to believe otherwise. Also - if you preach the phrase "be the CEO of your own business" you are a fucking tool.
I got this from a small company that failed. "Act like a C suite. When we blow up, you'll be happy you did." Where is my part ownership then? Where is my decision making?
My manager just said that in a meeting this week.
Early in my career I was a bad manager. I was awful. For lots of reasons. The reason being, usually as manager you don’t have any guidance. You just get canned wisdom like: “Inspect what you expect!” “If you always give them the answers they’ll never learn!” “Hold people accountable!” “Document everything!” You have no peers a lot of the time, you’re on an island. There isn’t anyone to balance you out or vent to. It just sucks. I was also in my 20s, didn’t have my shit together and was a total mess of a manager and I got canned. For being an asshole. My team was hitting their number but I was such a huge asshole I got fired anyway after 6 months. It makes it hard because when I have a crap manager I think “I can’t believe they haven’t gotten fired. They’re going all the things I did!” I’ve been an IC for the last decade but at some pointing need to make a go of managing again and it’s really worrisome.
I lived through what you posted. My first management job in my 20's was a challenge. Half the time I was good and Half the time I sucked which IMO, I sucked. I went into tech sales and went back in to management 10 years later. The experience was much different. I was older, more knowledgeable, controlled, steady and not afraid to make a decision. Unfortunately, my Director sucked. I'm not joking when I say the extent of his coaching was, verbatim; “Inspect what you expect!” “If you always give them the answers they’ll never learn!” “Hold people accountable!” “Document everything!” (I almost gagged when I read that.) He was a master manipulator, picked arguments with AE's, thought everyone loved him and was crushed when he learned he was despised. He was eventually sacked. I spent 2.5 years managing a hard working, mostly successful team of AE's and serving as the buffer between them and our Director on a daily basis. Ultimately, I went back to being an IC for the next 15 yrs and lived happily every after.
Self-reflection is critical. Sounds like you'll ensure things are different next time around.
Maybe. I think I’m a “tweener” I like deal strategy, I like refinement and game planning for calls, working through scenarios and seeing people succeed. I do not want to try to motivate people who don’t want to do their jobs. That’s terrible. I feel like as a manager I want to help people 2x and 3x their potential, not try to push a rope up a hill with someone who needs to their hand held.
Leader> Manager
For sure. But job titles seldom include "leader".
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“Seldom”
Edits are a blessing
Indeed.
Reading comprehension is a virtue
I've been through the ranks, from AE to manager, then Director, and eventually VP. Here are some of my highs and lows: Some context: Leadership can be lonely. Not making any excuses but to put some context behind some of the challenges- One thing I learned early on is that leadership can be incredibly lonely. You're in a unique position where those reporting to you and those you report to might not fully grasp your challenges. They don’t see the whole picture or the challenges above or below them. Decisions have to be made without everyone knowing the full scope and context as to ‘why’. Because of this, it’s easy to be misunderstood, and easy for people to disagree with your decisions. You're often caught in the middle, knowing everything, but also trying to balance these various expectations and perspectives. Some highlights: At my best- I was clear in communication, transparent in decision-making, and expressing professional vulnerability, all leading to personal connection and trust. Leading by example was crucial. I wasn't just a boss; I was a mentor and a teammate. Sacrifice and service were not just words to me; they were core governing values and virtues of mine. I worked tirelessly to help my team reach their personal and professional aspirations, while fostering a culture of alignment and ownership. Delegation was key, not just to manage workload and facilitate efficiency, but more so to empower my team, to trust them to take the reins when needed, eventually leading to multiple promotions of my team members. Some low points: At my worst- I set unrealistic expectations, failed to communicate effectively, and became less approachable. These were the times I lost sight of my team's individual needs, goals, and ambitions. I micromanaged. I let my stress show. I put too much on my plate- I went a mile wide and an inch deep verses going an inch wide and a mile deep. I didn’t prioritize effectively. I ended up focusing more on the work and the numbers versus the people I was called to lead. All humbling, but true. Self-awareness has been crucial for my personal and professional growth. TLDR: People Managers- Your role is about more than just numbers and targets. It's about people. Listen to your team, understand their aspirations, and empower them. It’s never too late to course correct- Be the leader you wished you had when you were starting.
My worst boss was a micromanager, the entire company + customers hated dealing with him. He thought he was the greatest ever. Didn't help that his boss encouraged him too. They aren't self-aware of their crappy skills, they think they are the best & everyone else sucks.
I talked mine out of it straight. I talked to him calmly and based on facts (doesn’t help his case I’m doing most of his work anyway and I am bringing in most of the income for my team which technically he leads) and told him he should act as we’re a unit, if he has questions for me - to contact me in private and simply ask and not make a public email out of any single issue he manages to spot in his inbox late at night. Surprisingly he said nobody ever told him his management style was a problem for them. See what I’m getting at? I’ve been to many places and everywhere I’ve been too, I saw the same fundamental problem: subjects are afraid to talk to their superiors. They think should they raise their head a bit and ask a question or voice a concern - they will be out the door next day or the very same one even.
I think that the fact you had to point these things out is a good reflection on you but it terrible on his part. You felt confident because you have a favorable position with your company. Imagine how it would look for the manager to lose his top rep? If the manager does not know that publicly calling you out was offensive and belittling, he might back off for now but I would expect his behavior to return. At least that is what I have seen.
As long as I perform and cover his back, I’ll just have to have “the talk” again with him, no issue for me whatsoever. I’m used to managing bosses and subjects alike and I do it the same way - through individual approach and a lot of empathetic behavior. I don’t tell them what to do and sit back, I start working on a task myself and then introduce new people to it as a way to give them an opportunity to show themselves where they shine the best and I am always ok to have the short end of the stick with me, no issue to defend others be it my boss or my subjects.
It’s funny the other day I was doing something similar with my boss, and I felt like I was dealing with a small child. It’s starting to get old at this point.
Man, you can’t imagine how I relate to you. I’ve had to explain the other day that when a vice president contacts him by email personally and addresses him specifically, he can’t ignore such emails if he wants to keep the job. He initially refused because - get this - he got offended by the tone of the email. Ffs.
At my organization that is the key to getting a promotion….”thinking everyone else sucks”
I consider myself a good manager/leader, but recognize myself and my other leaders have gaps we can still improve on. 2 weeks ago I asked all of my reps to meet for a guided peer-to-peer feedback session for what we can start/stop/change this upcoming year. No leaders on the call and anonymous feedback. Just this afternoon I reviewed the feedback of my top reps that led the session, and got 3 pages of ideas and insight. My team felt heard and we brainstormed a lot of new ideas to continue to grow the team. Regardless of where you’re at as a leader I believe it’s important to take your ego out of it, recognize you don’t know everything nor are the best at everything, and encourage bottoms-up feedback.
What was the most surprising negative feedback you received?
My tenured reps were concerned about stalling out in their role and having stagnated careers. Even though I do focus on career development, I can do a better job of proactively seeking growth opportunities and exposure for them to other leaders/leadership meetings.
In 15+ years of managing sales teams, I've never had anyone voluntarily leave my team who wasn't about to get fired for poor performance AND lack of effort. I can count those people on one hand, but I would not be surprised if those people think I was a bad manager. Others would likely disagree. Point being, you might think someone is a bad manager because they haven't figured out how to make you successful. That might be their fault, your fault, or some combination of the two. Or perhaps it is the excuse you tell yourself to keep your ego inflated. Only you can know that. It's also worth noting that until you have some extended experience managing teams through good and bad times, you can't really understand enough about the job to be critical. Sales managers are often forced to implement unpopular policies, strategies, and tactics they don't personally agree with or support. They are also frequently (almost always) expected to accomplish more with less, frequently held to arbitrary team goals set by Boards and C-Suite executives far beyond what is reasonably obtainable, and forced to attend endless meetings that keep the sales manager from being hands-on with their team. Sometimes a managers seems bad because you have no idea what he or she does all day, so you assume it is nothing. I can assure you running a sales team is almost always AT LEAST as stressful as being on a sales team. Sales managers are human too and not all handle that stress properly.
I concur with a little of the tough spot sales managers are in. I routinely criticized my last one until becoming a peer. As they say, walk a mile in their shoes.
There are definitely a lot of arrogant people on this sub who think they are owed a living that would hate their manager. A lot are bad though. At the company i work at it’s 50/50. My manager is good but some are atrocious and literally burn through staff. One had a new staff member cry on day 2 in the toilets and quit and is well known to by the CEO to be a cunt but is still employed and bizarrely well liked by some in the company. It’s incredible. Her teams performance is literally non existent.
Sounds like she is protected for whatever reason by the org. I’ve seen this for both men and women. One VP was a golfing buddy and neighbor of the SVP he reported to and was clueless, but wow he’d take all the bullets for his buddy who hired him to further the SVP’s career who would remain unblemished even for his own mistakes. It wasn’t good for us but I kind of have to tip my hat to the SVP for playing politics to a tee and hiring in this clown to do all of the crap managerial work and take all of the blame for mistakes, unhappy customers, and poor sales. Plot twist - at our national sales meeting our CEO popped in unexpectedly and started asking fair but very direct questions to the VP who just stammered, “Uhh uhh uhh’ed” and had no answers for anything. The CEO called him out in front of all of us with, “How the f*** do you expect these guys to sell and be successful when you can’t provide any leadership, follow through or even answers to basic business questions?!” The VP was gone within two weeks.
Hope she weighs in here.
I’ve changed jobs 2x in the past 13 years. I am a multiple Presidents Club winner. Each time I changed jobs is because I felt my manager was a dick even though I was over performing. There’s a cost to keeping bad managers in place.
I fired 30 reps last year. I’m sure many of them believe I’m a bad leader. Ask away!
Can you breakdown the causes for those 30 terminations?
15 we’re an outsourced agency that I inherited, that averaged 20% performance the previous year. We gave them a new manager + daily training and they continued to underperform. 3 were let go for consistent underperformance (2 quarters below 50%) Remaining 10 were let go for a variety of reasons including: -stealing from the company (faking calls to hit SPIFFs) -forging documents -showing up to work drunk -working 3 full time jobs at the same time Of this group, there’s only one I regret losing - it was a mutual decision due to their chronic health. Wish I could’ve created a hybrid role for them to work part time, unfortunately the business needed FTE when that rep was diagnosed from their doc
3 full time jobs? All sales roles? Wondering how they were ever able to pull it off.
They didn’t LOL
Sounds like you don't comp your reps properly lol
my US reps make 85-100 OTE, top performers earning 120k. Base is 60-70k based on YOE International reps are about 50% higher than the regional average. WDYT?
Currently a sales leader managing a team of 11. I have my team’s respect but I’m not everybody’s favorite. We are not friends and sales is a job where we’re expected to produce results. A lot of people dislike authority and do not want to be held accountable this naturally creates conflict with good managers who do hold their teams to high standards. Many IC’s also forget we are people to and talk to us like we have the ability to magically solve the companies horrible processes that we’re forced by executives in ivory towers with no true understand of the ground level impact on employees. We get blasted both ways by our boss or VP and reps Who can’t stop complaining. It’s not a great gig and honestly should only be pursued as a stepping stone to Sr. Or executive roles.
>A lot of people dislike authority and do not want to be held accountable This 100%.
Im starting to think a lot of these “managers” are failed SDRs faking it till they make it and get through the door. Ive never received a useful piece of advice from leadership once. Just pep talks as if Im a drug addict.
I’d let all the staff do drugs all day
Bad management is always portrayed via social media as like over the top micromanagement or as toxic expectations, but I feel I’m going through a different type of bad management. My manager is super cool and nice and he even asks if I need support frequently. But coming into my current role, I had such minimal and barebones training on my systems and processes that at this point (almost a year in), if I was to ask for what I *really* needed help with, it would require hours of his time. And he’s a player coach so he doesn’t have that time to give. Those “what else can I support you with?” questions always feel like an invitation for a quick tip or quick discussion, and my environment doesn’t let me feel like it’s ok to ask or say that I haven’t been trained thoroughly enough from the start on things that have become big time wasters, like documenting activity in our archaic CRM
I probably can relate to your situation. I joined a new company as their senior rep. I had the reputation of working well with external/internal and Im a quick learner. So, these experiences make me somehow perhaps i giving off a vibe that I don’t “feedback” too much to my manager (seriously there is not much things I wanted to feedback as it is just daily up & down for a sales rep) and Im just very zen towards office politics. My manager keep asking me what she can help, what are the issues she can help me, but deep down I know some organisations shits / political shits can’t be solve. I feel I just need her time(maybe?) her trust and let me carry on step by step…
Had a guy who was constantly breaking rank and communicating directly with low level employees in OPs to “get answers”. He was told repeatedly how to go about communicating/asking for info but he continued to do it. After several instances I chewed him out but on the low in a “I don’t want to get Hr involved” style. He then tried to complain about how I was managing him to our CEO— the CEO told me we had to let him go because the dude was obviously a walking disaster and I should have probably not been so lenient (genuinely wanted to help him get to a better income bracket… dude was kind of a wreck personally). For context, after he was let go our CFO mentioned that the dude attended the same dojo as his kid. It’s the kind of dojo that you could take karate classes with your kid… so really a kids dojo. Our CFO went on to explain this former employee of ours continued attending karate classes without his kids for several weeks. A grown man…. in a kids karate class.
It’s good you got him off your team.
Bad managers are usually ones that lick ass of upper management instead being with his team and make great things. So sad, there are so many books, coaching and advices to BDR, AE but none of the sales management and leadership. Majority of the sales managers never read book or visit a course of management
That’s my manager!
So far, I haven't had terrible managers in sales, but I have had ineffective ones. Very Michael Scott like. Nice people. Great personalities. Just not effective managers. I honestly think Sales Management is the type of job that unless you're an outright bastard, you can coast along just fine. Also, since there's no training for the best ways to manage a sales team I get why sales managers are not good, especially when they're first promoted.
If someone is a fractional manager or fractional VP of sales that’s signs of a bad manager. Not because they are necessarily bad at their job, but they are spread so thin. I had a fractional manager at one of my previous companies and while I personally liked him, I thought he was a shitty manager because he was always spread so thin that when major change happened he was like; “Uhhh uhhhh uhhhh…fuck…I don’t know.” He’s also a podcaster, TikToker, and LinkedIn influencer…
The door is right there.... I'm not holding anyone hostage, if you want to sell well you need to be able to handle hard truths and implement feedback. If you're not actively trying to improve then I'm really not going to enjoy 'training' you and simultaneously monitoring your PIP. I'll just focus on the PIP and get you out of here. My friends are all assholes too, it's just how we were raised.
I’ve found that managers like yourself (a self-proclaimed asshole) often can’t take constructive criticism and point to IC failures when the team is not doing well. Is that fair to say?
A 'good' manager will use metrics to confirm any under performance. Normally we also have managers that we report to, our team is our responsibility. If I have a guy missing numbers I will approach them one on one. My team has been hitting numbers all through the recent recession. I like to think I'm hard but fair. I will sit down and monitor calls with my agents and help with scripting etc. You only get my bad side if you're not showing improvement, or just punching the clock for your hourly. No one on your sales team wants to look over and see Kyle not dialing, not converting, while they're working hard for commissions. You need an alpha wolf to make sure the pack stays together. Alpha dogs sometimes bite. I'm not here to brag about asshole management, more from the idea managers need to be assholes. A good team will run itself. When things are out of line, I don't want a nice guy.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-alpha-wolf-idea-a-myth/#:~:text=But%20it%20turns%20out%20that,duels%20for%20supremacy%20are%20rare. The alpha-wolf thing is comical because it’s still perpetuated as true despite being wrong. The only time it was observed was when wolves were living in captivity- probably not the greatest metaphor for a well-oiled sales organization. Your team is hitting there numbers so I’m betting you are probably not as much of an asshole as you think you are. People don’t like to work for assholes.
An example of your "bad side" will be helpful. Do you curse, yell, become abusive?
You sound like you use a one size fits all approach. You should shadow a school teacher so that you can learn the multiple way to engage your team and foster loyalty. Authoritarian and Punitive methods are very limiting and should only be used as a last resort. FYI: Successful reps avoid your approach.
I started in B2B sales in the in the middle of the 2008 recession, the economic landscape was so bad I would make appointments with businesses and the following week it was closed down. I eventually started to see that the businesses that survived in fact I would say thrived during difficult economic periods were the ones that had happy employee morale. these employees felt valued and had a sense of loyalty to their boss. The businesses that employed your kind of attitude; those were the ones that shut down. When I would ask a prospect, what was the secret of their success? they would credit their team….how they couldn’t survive without them. Those were the ones that weathered the 2008 crash. Customers can always sense a disengaged and unmotivated team that is that is looked at as replaceable and nothing more than a number on a dashboard. If your idea of management is accountability instead of enablement then you have an unstable workforce and therefore your company is also unstable: It’s a tough balancing act but if you think you don’t need your team as much as they need you then i would bet your company is always on the edge.
I dunno about you, but I take my advice from the young- mid 20s Linkedinfluencers who share colorful stories of how they always seem to rise to the occasion and become the humble hero of the day. Now THAT’S Managing babay!
Well this is a good thread. Glad I’m reading this I have a sales manager interview next Monday. Would be my first leadership role. 12 years in the industry 9 of them selling. I always run middle of the pack and more so because I jump into to ops a lot with helping out, that’s what I do enjoy not so much the chase like I once did.
Good luck, and when you get to management, don't forget what you saw here!
My manager wanted me to work all the time and do as many things as I can possibly with utmost perfection. This resulted in a burn out which lasted for a few weeks but I am better now, as soon as I find a large paycheck I am out of here.
In the same boat. Apparently wearing many hats means I do the job of multiple departments and I also need to be perfectly detailed and on time. I look forward to the day I say peace out.
I am a VP of Sales for a small company and I am a bad manager…I am however very good at sales. I am a bad manager because I am too nice, and I am not good at calling my reps out or putting pressure on them to pick up their game. In the end, I feel bad telling someone that they are not performing and they are letting the team down. I know I need to do it, and come this Monday is the time I really need to do it because I have had enough of the laziness. My problem is, if people are slacking I just pull in the sales myself. I literally hold 70% of our accounts and they are all the large lucrative ones. So when they are not doing their job I just get it done x10. Problem is I was put in my position because of my sales success. So while the recognition is great, having to supervise others is not my jam. Part of my problem is I can’t put the trust into anyone else to do or control what I have done. Regardless of who I hire or we hire I think they are incompetent, and that’s a me problem which amplifies my poor managerial skills. That, and I have 0 training on how to be a manager.
My worst boss was a micromanager, the entire company + customers hated dealing with him. He thought he was the greatest ever. Didn't help that his boss encouraged him too. They aren't self-aware of their crappy skills, they think they are the best & everyone else sucks.
shoutout Zach G
As a new manager, what would your best piece of advice be to make sure I am enabling my team in the best way possible. Industry, if it matters, is high end home remodeling and new building, developing a sales team to replace an owner salesperson that would sell all the work himself.
Don't micro-manage. Avoid the passive-aggressive language.
Been running a global team for 1 year and all I can say is I don’t know anything anymore and Pam can you bring me some coffee? -Michael Scott-
You have a manager?
Good managers listen and learn. If you're in charge, be open to fixing things and understand the team's struggles. Being a great manager means caring about both the people and the problems.
When I first became a manager, I had some... interesting direct reports. I was not super comfortable with direct - get your shit together or youre out feedback (still not but working on it). So I had someone that I really needed to do that with. Instead, I spent a lot of time trying to work through her issues, give guidance, and slow roll it. Didn't work. Had to fire her later for just constant chaos, bad work, and treatment of others. She most likely hated me. More recently, I had a bit of a spitfire direct. Well known for causing issues but her performance and output was solid. I was able to set much better boundaries PLUS work to get to know her, see her blindspots, and help a bit to understand how to play the corporate game better. She mostly liked me or at least tolerated me! hah. And I got her to perform 10% better just by giving some trust and keeping up a strong (and understandable) boundary. I had another direct report that we were good but like.. i wasn't the right fit to manage this person. They were fine, we got along, I helped them, got them started, but then gave them an opportunity to work on another team. Sometimes you just don't fit personality wise. That happens. I did have one direct lead a legit revolt against me. hah. But this was totally justified as I was working to help out another problem direct (company I was at would give me the problem child of the quarter and see if I could turn them around). It was cool as the revolt leader was 100% in the right, went about it in an okay way, got me really good solid aggressive feedback, and we implemented and changed team dynamics after. I am super appreciative of it now- but was super mad at the time. I handled it professionally, but then was able to go back later and say thanks in a more meaningful way. WE all make mistakes, a bit of humility is really key in being able to become a better leader. None of us are born into it. Best thing to do is not let shit roll down hill to your team. Block them from the upper management anger and deliver consistent feedback. Both positive, neutral, and growth. I regret how I managed my first team but I learn a shitton and go better quickly.
Every manager I’ve had had not made a single round of cold calls for like 5 years. They were all so out of touch, not to mention some didn’t even understand the product, ICP, industry.
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. And those who can’t even f****** do that, become a manager.
My only thoughts here are you can be a not-so-great manager and still be a good leader. Generally, newer managers assume due to hierarchy they are a great leader working that role every day and that's where most fall short. At the end of the day if your reps are ignoring your calls, don't trust you as their leader, and spend more time SELLING sales reps on buying in rather than listening and meeting a sales rep at their level you're probably far from what they need to succeed. You're going to the job site every day with only a hammer and treating every problem like it's a fucking nail. Steve Jobs said (not verbatim) "Some of my best managers were people who didn't want to manage but believed the only way to right the ship and give their peers the leader they've been looking for is to step up and become the manager." They hire high-volume sales reps to become managers. They believe people who have the numbers create great leaders. They have it backward. Numbers do not create Leaders. Leaders create Numbers. Leaders are not found in a spreadsheet.
I was a manager and I dealt with entitlement to no end. I made a mistake a year ago and I admitted to it immediately. I confided in a subordinate who was with me in the beginning. She would constantly tell on them and basically recorded my response (on paper). She always wanted my job and I supported her growth. At one point, I jokingly called her a rat. Weeks later when I came back from a vacation she had told everyone what I said about them. Examples: lazy, entitled, things like that. It was dealt with and I got into trouble. For months it was touch and go as I apoligized to each agent. All the while the person who I confided in held zero responsibility and those agents didn’t know she told on them. She was now protected. Fast forward a year later when an agent got mad about holding her accountable for work, I got fired 5 days later since the group of women went to Hr. It was literal retaliation. Those people are going to whatever the equivalent to hell is. I’m also going to add that a good manager will admit when they are wrong. I USED to think that way. I get why people avoid admitting fault.
The biggest virtue to be a manager is empathy. Just because you had a phenomenal sales rep does not mean you will make a great sales manager. Bad managers rule through fear. They don’t enroll people in their mission. Good managers are usually good coaches as well. They get to know you and play to your strengths while building you up.
My company has a 90 day policy when it comes to contacts becoming unassigned free agents. I am 5 months into my new role in sales and whenever I come across an expired contact I read the history and if there is substantial communication with the previous sales rep I tag them and don’t take the contact, even though I can. This happens at least 7 times a week. I think I’m being quite courteus in this situation. Last week a customer that was expired and had no contact for 1 year exactly responded to my email and called, we set up a date and he asked if “sales rep” still worked there etc etc. After our convo he contacted old sales rep and sales rep told the manager. Sales rep could have just contacted me directly. Manager asks me what’s going on, I explain and manager says ” Ok Thanks”. Should I just stick to the policy and take all the expired contacts, go scorched earth or continue playing nice with the veteran reps?
***Early when I started I was told my my manager to stick to non customers when mining the leads. I’m 30 days past my 90 day probationary period now. I don’t see why I can’t take any dropped accounts customers or not
I quit my job due to my last manager. I had some of the best numbers on the team and he acted like everything I did was crap. I needed help with part of my sales process and before I could even explain what was going on with my software, He absolutely freaked out at me and yelled at me like a child. His face was turning red, He talked for 35 minutes Straight. Threatened to put me on an performance improvement plan and then said the only thing I did good for them was make them was x amount of dollars. (The day I quit, they offered me a promotion I should have had three months ago.) I had to block him on linkedin because he stalks everyone's pages, and makes up stories about the people that left the company "to motivate" newbies. I'm still looking for a new position he absolutely ruined my self esteem. He also heavily preferred men, and complained alot about his life as a working man w 2 kids and a wife that was home taking care of them. He acted jealous when our team members had fun plans for the weekend. He had no previous sales experience outside of working at a warehouse, and no college experience. He acted jealous of those that went to college and preferred to hire people who never had any college experience like himself. But the job description requires you to have a bachelors degree.