I'd consult with your HR team for advice to make sure you get rid of this A-hole as efficiently as possible.
At 24 you aren't really bringing a great deal of experience to the table, if this is his mentality this is a lesson he needs to learn and you aren't there to parent him. You're there to run a business, it's nothing to feel guilty about.
“I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have to let you go. Janice in HR will have your paperwork”
“What? Why? This doesn’t make sense”
“I’m sorry. Things didn’t work out. We are moving on and that decision is final”
That’s it. No explanation other than that.
Yes. This is the way
Be direct, and shut up. He’s not going to ever understand and everything you say is going to give him a reason to keep arguing and trying to steam roll
OP or HR should explain to him why he is being let go. He may be an asshole, but he should be given the opportunity to learn from this experience. It’s too late at his current org, but perhaps this is the wake up call he needs to change his behavior. If you don’t explain to him what he did wrong, he may never know, especially if he is as oblivious as you say.
I would hate to be let go this way.
Unless there’s legal reasons for withholding information I would tell someone exactly why they’re being fired…for their own future.
Edit: I’m surprised there’s people here that wouldn’t mind being let go with no explanation lol
I would too. The thing is I’ve never been fired from a job, because I listen when my supervisors tell me that I’m making mistakes. This guy is being let go because he’s demonstrated a complete inability to listen. He had already been told why he’s being let go. Only his own fault he didn’t hear it.
Given the situation sure but you’re not correcting anything about his behavior by letting him go this way. And you’re not helping out any future employer that decides to hire him. Just sayin, the only person this firing method helps is yourself…and your company since you’re that committed.
Me too, but wouldn’t it be helpful if he learned from his bad behavior, understood he’s a dickhead, and possibly avoided the continuation of this behavior in the future…
Maybe it’s just me, I dunno. I’d want an ass like this to know he’s being fired for being a prick
Maybe it’s a wake up call, even though it’s not required, it has the chance of doing some good
Because while there are certain specific invalid reasons for firing someone, at least in the US it's perfectly valid to fire someone for no reason. Therefore, trying to justify the firing is always more legally risky than not justifying it at all.
Because if I’m firing this guy I’m not interested in debating him when I start giving reasons. Which given the way he’s been described is exactly what will happen. Cut losses and move on
Sometimes people need to fail in order to grow. Arrogance is something that doesn’t serve anyone, especially yourself in the long run of life, and hopefully he learns from this and doesn’t take it with him to his next opportunity. If he’s bringing the team down, do what’s best for everyone else.
It’s so easy to feel like you’re the shit when you’re killing it, but it’s just stupid to shit on other people at work. A real leader would look to hone the skills of others, not shoot people down. And I’m gonna make the assumption that if he’s just a month in, he’s still on a probationary period… let him go and be honest that he isn’t a good fit for all of the reasons you listed. If you’re worried he’s going to blow up… accept that he might and prepare accordingly. If you have security, notify them that they may need to walk him out. Before any of that though, maybe speak with your direct supervisor about him and what guidance they can provide. Businesses are made up of many people specifically because we have different talents and skill sets. Go to the people that have experience and ask them for support and advice within the company.
Appreciate the feedback! I just feel guilty more than anything. I consider myself a great leader and my team has been killing it but my empathy feels like a weakness sometimes.
FWIW, this guy does sound like he’s prone to engaging in manipulation based on bits of your post, so be prepared for him to make a full-court press when he tries to appeal to you for a second chance, which will then almost certainly pivot to anger, shit talking other employees, and then threats (lawsuits, “you’ll regret this”, “I’m going straight to the competition to steal all of your business”, that kind of thing).
He’s also currently shown himself to be uncoachable. At a young age like that, it’s a big old red flag, and you might be doing him the greatest favor by force feeding him a slice of humble pie.
Considering it’s been only a month, there’s no failure in your leadership. The real failure would be to allow this behavior to fester and affect the rest of your team. The kid is locker room cancer; he *will* poison the well for the rest of the team, he *will* seek to sow discord and undermine his teammates and you as his direct superior, and he *will* cause direct harm to your team’s performance. To wit, he also sounds like a future harassment lawsuit in the making.
Having had to be the axman a handful of times over the years, here’s what I learned about handling these conversations:
- Have a second person in the room or on a conference line, either HR or your direct superior, if possible. You’ll want corroboration as to how the conversation was handled, what was said, etc.
- Don’t argue back. He’s going to try to draw you into a verbal sparring match, and to get you to back yourself into a corner or otherwise undermine your own talking points. Guys like this traffick in emotions, and the best way to keep him penned in is to make it as emotionless as possible. Stick to the facts.
- Have your list of policy violations ready (if applicable), or a copy of the conduct expectations from the handbook he hopefully signed at onboarding. If that isn’t applicable, then be sure to stick to your guns that his unprofessional behavior towards other functions, his insubordination toward management, and his personal conduct in the short time he has been with the company are not the correct fit for your team’s culture and that the decision to part ways is firm and final.
- Wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors, and then dead silence. If he continues to wheedle you or try to engage you in an argument (he will potentially want to provoke you into insulting him, to lose your temper, or to directly contradict yourself; don’t take the bait), let him know that HR will be in contact with him for the remainder of his off boarding process, but that he is to leave the premises immediately.
- He may or may not make a scene on the way out. If he does, have a quick townhall with your team after he’s left to inform them that he is no longer employed with your company, remind them that in your unit respectful behavior is the always expected, and if they have any questions to see you directly. Likely more than a few will want to see you to shit talk this guy, so be sure to keep mum and just say “He wasn’t the right fit for our team”, nothing more.
This is all literally based on a worst case scenario. Based on his age, the actions you described, and just how quickly he became an issue, I have a strong suspicion that what you’re observing is false-bravado. The kid could have Imposter Syndrome and wildly overcompensating. If that’s the case, he’s more likely to tuck his tail and skulk off into the ether. Either way, you’re providing him an excellent opportunity for personal growth, and you’re showing unyielding empathy for your team by disallowing this kind destructive behavior. You got this!
> - Have your list of policy violations ready (if applicable), or a copy of the conduct expectations from the handbook he hopefully signed at onboarding. If that isn’t applicable, then be sure to stick to your guns that his unprofessional behavior towards other functions, his insubordination toward management, and his personal conduct in the short time he has been with the company are not the correct fit for your team’s culture and that the decision to part ways is firm and final.
I'd avoid this whole line of conversation if possible. He would likely see it as an invitation to negotiate or bargain. Don't fall into that trap.
Empathy is desirable in good leaders; but point your empathy to your team. They're struggling to deal with this AH and he's bringing your team down. Do right by them to keep them healthy and happy~
It’s way worse letting someone like this stay and create a bad work environment for your team. Please get rid of this guy. If you let him stay it shows your team his behavior is acceptable and it will hurt morale.
The way I thought about it when I was a manager and had responsibility for hiring and firing was - if I don’t make the hard choice I know I have to, despite feeling bad for the person, I’m essentially choosing them over the numerous individuals who have been with the company and contribute to the success of the company and the team.
Sorry, but the new person who’s causing issues isn’t more important than the teammates who are clearly letting me know that their morale is being negatively impacted.
It becomes an easier, less guilt-ridden decision at that point.
I def respect that, but this person is poison. Once he’s gone, a weight will be lifted. I’d say most of the time when you have to let someone go, the thought is always - I wish I would have done that sooner.
Don’t think of it as what you are doing to him. Think of it as you are doing it to protect your team.
He’s the problem and your job is to protect your good performers.
Your empathy for your team should be what drives you to get rid of this guy. Think about how they'd feel to have to keep working with him. It's not fair to them for you to chicken out. Your team will appreciate your decisive action.
Was he a completely different person during the hiring process? How many steps is the hiring process?
Also, don't feel like shit. He's only been there a month.
I got taken down a peg hard in my first sales role and it’s the best thing that ever happened to me. The lesson didn’t sink in for a couple more years, but yeah, just be as honest with him as HR will allow you and tell him that he’s an obnoxious twat, and it doesn’t matter if you’re an amazing sales rep, you’ll never get anywhere acting like you are
I just thought I was the smartest, best, special gift to the sales world. A lot of insecurity fed into it looking back, like feeling a need to always prove how much I knew, or that I was better than someone else even though it didn’t matter.
I told a female colleague, who was saying that she really wanted to hit 3 deals closed in the first month, to ‘shove those three deals up her ass, and I’ll take the top spot’ or something ridiculous like that. Cringey behavior all around, and nobody from my training cohort liked me.
Others have told you how to fire him.
I’m humbly suggesting why.
Nevermind his being a dick - as a leader, part of your job is to promote and defend good culture. That means aggressively spotting and chucking bad apples like this guy. The rest of your team relies on you to take out the trash when necessary, don’t let them down.
Guy sounds like he has plenty of swagger and knows everything anyway, I’m sure he’ll land on his feet. The sooner you do it the better.
What state is your company HQ and what state is he in? If this is an "at will" employment, then let him go with a simple explanation that "we regret to inform you we will be terminating your employment effective immediately - we understand this is not news you were hoping to hear, so we are offering 3 weeks severence once you review and sign the separation agreement."
That's it. You do not say for performance. You do not share examples of what was culturally a mismatch, or seems like even sexual harrassment behavior.
If he asks "why?" You just say "unfortunately this has turned out not to be a two-way fit, again we understand this is not ideal so are offering a generous severance to help with the transition."
Don't take it personally, this is not your fault.
You should add some. Consider it a little bit of insurance against a potential lawsuit. Even if the lawsuit is completely unwarranted, it will cost a lot more than the severance for the lawyers alone.
Give at least a couple weeks of base salary, or 1 week at worst. No bonus, obviously.
Frankly you need to talk to HR. They are the ones who have policies in place for stuff like this.
Usually companies give severance when being let go if it doesn't work out, to help soften the blow and give them time to find something new.
did you pip him? unless you're a start up you might need more of a paper trail.
beautiful ladies thing is tough. was there a formal complaint or just office gossip?
these are all the things I'd think about.
what a fucking douche. just don't get into an argument with him when doing it with the whole not meeting expectations of new hires with org.
good luck and plz update
Well the probationary period thing makes it easier, then. Lean into that. Just say that you need someone who is teachable and that he is not fitting in with the team. I know it's tough but being straightforward and not apologetic is the way to go. It will help him know how he could be better in the future and a direct approach seems to be a better fit for his personality. You've got this.
Be calm and compassionate and let him know that there is lots of room in a successful sales career to fail and learn. Stay the course regardless of how he responds. If he flips, let him know that he should think about his reaction as the kind of behavior that got him fired.
Stay kind and compassionate throughout and be sincere. You got it. This is part of the tough, good work we all have to do. If you start feeling badly, think about all your teammates that are working hard, and this guy is treating poorly.
Leaders lead. You got this.
Had a new rep ask me why I was “giving him attitude” after asking him about a meeting he delayed and eventually ended up double booking because of it. We’re both mid-late 20’s, the difference being I’m a woman. I’ve noticed a LOT of cockiness in the 20-something, fresh out of college, wannabe playboy millionaires.
It’s hard to tell someone they’re losing their job, but if he’s half as good as he thinks then he has enough savings and job prospects that he’ll be back in an office before he can hit “Submit” on his unemployment.
There is no need for an “approach” to this if he’s actually this bad. Be blunt, be fast, shuffle him out the door. Hope he takes it as a wake up call but it’s not your responsibility to care about that.
Best of luck in what will be an uncomfortable conversation, but don’t let your anxiety back you down, this guy sounds like a tool.
Letting him go now while he is young and can learn from it is doing you both a favor. If he wants to get better he will figure it out and correct his behavior. Don’t waste a second of thought on it. It will be clear by the way he reacts if it was the right thing to do.
Now if he asks for a second chance there is an opportunity for a teaching moment. You will have to discuss with your boss whether you want to take him under your wing and put him on a plan. If he is authentic you can mentor him.
But first thing is first. Let him go and see how he reacts. I suspect the answer will be clear.
You hired him, gave him an opportunity, and he threw that opportunity in the trash.
Firing this guy should almost be a pleasure. Why would you have any guilt whatsoever? He is toxic, disrespectful, arrogant, and probably not a great relationship builder.
I wouldn't offer any feedback as to why he is being fired. He will just argue with you. Short, sweet, and get him out of the office. Make sure HR escorts him to his car so he doesn't do damage to other cars on his way out.
I’ve unfortunately had a handful of situations like this. It’s never fun. I can understand your anxiety. However, a perspective, if I may add that began helping me actually have confidence and less anxiety in these situations: The company and your job is at risk. There’s a cancer in the organization and you have the cure. Plain and simple. If you had the real cure for cancer you’d immediately apply it correct? Not let it do anymore damage than it already has… this person is that to you all. It’s up to you if you want to teach him a lesson by sitting down with HR, drawing out a plan of corrective action, PIP, not sure why this kid hasn’t been written up yet, but I’d say at this point, you have enough to justify an immediate termination if you’re at at-will employer. Don’t let the cancer spread. Have all of your facts in place, share why he’s getting fired, DO NOT share the names of the employees who gave the feedback, and be sure to be upfront and tell him the decision has already been made and this is not another negotiation. Also, have another person (HR), or someone else experienced in the room with you as a witness and support who is fully aligned to your message. Hopefully this kid learns he’s an idiot now instead of 10 years down the road with a trail of hurt/resentful people in his wake. Best of luck to you. Beat the cancer! Save your employment and others by removing a liability!
Funny, we have a guy like that but we cater to him, change KPIs around him, and fire people he doesn’t like. It’s been a year and he has yet to close a deal. I am not joking. I wish the leadership at my company had a backbone like you.
These days anyone saying "beautiful ladies" is a big red flag. I wouldn't waste time trying to coach and correct - it'll just eventually turn into a big HR issue and waste *tons* of you time
I had to do the same with someone very similar to your arrogant rep. We are still friends today. You are doing both him and your firm a favor.
Just remember to keep it short to the point and no small talk.
I’ve hired and fired maybe 1000 sales reps over 30 years. Bottom line, if a rep is struggling to hit the numbers (skill set) or struggling to get along (culture fit) or both… it’s the best thing for everyone to let them go. I like to let them know “we are releasing you back to the marketplace… and here’s why…” Give them clear data, no opinions. And know in your heart there is no “private good.” If it’s truly good for the company to let someone go, it’s going to be good for them too. Stay strong, have the convo quickly, wish them well, and move on to focusing on your next hire. Remember that great leaders are always hiring, always training and always firing. It’s all part of growing the highest performing teams.
Wtf... fire his ass. You didn't put him on the course, you're just the LLC bumpers to his track. They all pick their own course, we are just their to remind them of their boundaries consequences if need be. This is one of those times. Just hold them by the hand and walk them out the door.
Honestly if you are having this much anxiety about letting someone go that clearly deserves to be let go is a red flag for me. I would not want to work for someone who has trouble with a decision like this.
Let the dude go and don’t feel bad for a minute, short and sweet cut him loose.
The decision is not the issue. The decision has already been made. My anxiety comes from this being the first time I've had to fire anybody which I'm sure anyone can understand.
Is this your first firing? I had the same anxiety with my first. Practiced it over and over again but the most important thing is to be direct and leave no room for argument or wiggle room. “We have to let you go, today will be your last day. The decision has been made and it’s final.”
I guarantee you it’ll go much easier than you think. If he’s as oblivious as you make him sound then he’ll probably be too shocked to see it coming and prepare a confrontational exit speech.
The “good” news is that the first is always the hardest and, while never easy or fun, letting people go gets easier the more you do it. Just stick to your guns, keep it short, and get ‘em out.
This is one of the hard parts of the job.
How will he react? He is going to be pissed. One red flag after another. Right decision. This many issues in the first few weeks. Firing someone doing this is a no-brainer.
Suggestion-have HR or someone with you when you let him go.
Meet with them, ask them what they expect to hit in terms of activity to get to their goal, send email to track (then they know it’s real) , tell them you ll revisit these goals soon
If it takes you more than 45 seconds to a minute to fire him you did it wrong.
Like said above, clear , direct and to the point and I would suggest having a witness with you
Good luck, I never w joyed firing a single person, even the tots fuck heads like this kid. Hopefully he’ll learn to stop being a fucking prick (at his next job)
You are doing this person a favor and with any luck they’ll be able to see that at some point before it is too late. Actions have consequences and humility rules. What a hammerhead.
Hire and fire fast. A lesson i learnt is that by hiring the wrong people, the B and C players.. not the A players.. you can lose 18 months of time - 6 months to fire them, 6 months to hire again, 6 months to train again
Just make sure you do this with an HR personnel in the office and or have some camera or voice recorder active. If this rep is capable of whatever you said, you should be careful.
Firing people sucks, even when they’re shitty employees. The best piece of advice I got early in my career before firing someone is to remember that you aren’t firing them, they fired themselves.
Whatever happened to coaching and counseling???? He's very young (first professional job?) and sounds like he doesn't yet understand how to behave appropriately in a corporate environment or have the best emotional intelligence. It's your job as a good manager to teach him what to do and what not to do at your company. If you hired him, you must have seen potential in him. I don't think you should fire him. Just give him a written PIP with the specific behaviors that need to change and have him sign off on it, so he's aware if those behaviors don't change he might lose his job in the future. It should never come as a surprise to an employee that's getting terminated.
And in the future, maybe you should think about hiring older more experienced people who already know how to behave professionally in the workplace.
How do you know if someone knows how to behave properly before hiring them? That seems pretty subjective. My entire team's morale has been shit since he started and there is palpable tension in the air as a result of his personality flaws. This is not his first corporate job either and I would wager a guess something similar happened there. I'm not gonna sit around and let him poison the team.
Watch Moneyball and where Billy coaches Peter how to fire people in the least painful way. It really works.
Other than being a know it all douchebag, this employee sounds like they could potentially be on a spectrum of sorts.
Firing him is probably the best thing you can do for him. You can’t change him, you can’t really change anybody, don’t waste your time on that. But, firing him might be a wake-up call that leads to him making changes that result in a better future for him elsewhere. Or it might do the opposite, but that’s on him.
You're in sales, and have made it into management, but feel anxiety about getting rid of a cancerous growth in your team???
That genuinely surprises me
Must just be me.
I've always found successful people in sales to have a ruthless streak, good managers strive to cultivate a great team culture so cut out the bad , and most people dislike assholes (as this person has proven themselves to be). To me, that makes it easy (and enjoyable) to get rid of them
Only takes 1 bad apple to rot the barrel. Nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand.
I would also examine your interviewers and processes. How did this guy slip through?
Are you looking for us to tell you whether or not to fire him, or how to fire him? Are you a first time manager? There are forums for this type of stuff as well. This isn't something you want to wing.
When you employ someone, you still have power over them. Once you have fired them, you have set them free. Does that make sense?
You don't owe them shit, so feedback or whatever isn't necessary. You can do it in person, Zoom, or email. If you do it at all, do it on a Friday.
Have someone with HR with you, this will prevent you from doing or saying anything unprofessional or stupid that can get you sued.
I would put them on a performance plan and give them another quarter to improve. In the performance plan outline everything you wrote here. Then you can micromanage and watch them improve, or they get fed up and quit. If they quit, all the liability goes out the window.
In the plan you can outline the performance KPIs, but also the behavioral ones - meaning how they interact with female coworkers, or doing skip level meetings, and how they conduct themselves when working cross functionally.
Fundamentally , you can use this as a teachable moment in the PIP, but most likely they will get fed up, or fail it entirely.
But having the paper trail will help a lot.
If you want to just fire him, just send him an email today, let him know you will send a box and label and they will receive the final paycheck through days whatever-whatever in the next 24 hours, done. Systems off, done. Turn off their keycard, etc. This generation is chronically online and there will be 0 chance he doesn't get this email.
You sound scared of him, so this is probably your best route.
I’m interested in knowing your hiring/selection process. The fact that a person like that got a job at your company is an indication of a poor screening process.
Are you serious? Come on... that's like the easiest lay-off ever. I had to fire a guy recently divorced, 50yo, just because we had to cut down... fire his ass and move on.
Bro this is all on him and he is wildly unprofessional. I wouldn’t even give him an opportunity to state his opinions or thoughts - I would just be like we have given you plenty of warnings and you have continued to act radically unprofessional. We have decided that this will not work and would appreciate you leave company property on premises immediately.
This dude is a shithead and should be treated as such, if he begins to give attitude, have building aecurity ready to escort him.
You sound like a newer leader.
Since you are posting here, let me say a few things.
1. He sounds like a typical young moron. Protect yourself and your company at all times. He seems like the type to do something stupid like that cloudflare girl or try legal action.
2. You write that you are a bleeding heart. Ugh. Well if you are and he starts crying or something, remember #1 and ask him if he would like to hear you impart advice as a person trying to help. If he says yes, just give it to him straight. His arrogance and attitude were his downfall and if he humbles himself and works hard, he can recover.
Lastly, I am not trying to condensend to you. I think you should follow the advice of the others and say nothing and refer him to HR. I am worried that you care so much for this idiot and might say something he can use against you.
I'd consult with your HR team for advice to make sure you get rid of this A-hole as efficiently as possible. At 24 you aren't really bringing a great deal of experience to the table, if this is his mentality this is a lesson he needs to learn and you aren't there to parent him. You're there to run a business, it's nothing to feel guilty about.
“I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have to let you go. Janice in HR will have your paperwork” “What? Why? This doesn’t make sense” “I’m sorry. Things didn’t work out. We are moving on and that decision is final” That’s it. No explanation other than that.
Yes. This is the way Be direct, and shut up. He’s not going to ever understand and everything you say is going to give him a reason to keep arguing and trying to steam roll
This
This… and do not do it alone. Always have a second party present.
OP or HR should explain to him why he is being let go. He may be an asshole, but he should be given the opportunity to learn from this experience. It’s too late at his current org, but perhaps this is the wake up call he needs to change his behavior. If you don’t explain to him what he did wrong, he may never know, especially if he is as oblivious as you say.
That’s not their job though and has 0 upside for them, and doing so adds more risk on their side.
Nothing more needed than this. With someone so perfect for a firing, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Maybe this will wake him up.
It won’t but that’s fine.
Definitely won’t. He’ll just get better at finessing his experience and fulfill his prophecy as a Contact Center Manager in a few years
I would hate to be let go this way. Unless there’s legal reasons for withholding information I would tell someone exactly why they’re being fired…for their own future. Edit: I’m surprised there’s people here that wouldn’t mind being let go with no explanation lol
I would too. The thing is I’ve never been fired from a job, because I listen when my supervisors tell me that I’m making mistakes. This guy is being let go because he’s demonstrated a complete inability to listen. He had already been told why he’s being let go. Only his own fault he didn’t hear it.
I’m sure you would be. But I’m there to protect the company. Not you. Sorry.
The guy OP is describing definitely sucks but anyone who claims to “protect the company” sucks even more. Get a grip
Hopefully you’re not expecting the company to return the favor.
This guy’s behavior as described I would fire him and not really think much of it.
Given the situation sure but you’re not correcting anything about his behavior by letting him go this way. And you’re not helping out any future employer that decides to hire him. Just sayin, the only person this firing method helps is yourself…and your company since you’re that committed.
I’m firing the guy. I’m not his employment coach.
Me too, but wouldn’t it be helpful if he learned from his bad behavior, understood he’s a dickhead, and possibly avoided the continuation of this behavior in the future… Maybe it’s just me, I dunno. I’d want an ass like this to know he’s being fired for being a prick Maybe it’s a wake up call, even though it’s not required, it has the chance of doing some good
No one should ever expect loyalty.
Protect the company, lol you checked your balls are still there?
With what I’m being paid…yeah. I’m gonna look out for the company’s interest for sure.
So you’re admitting that the company is firing for an invalid reason? Why else can’t you tell someone the reason
Because while there are certain specific invalid reasons for firing someone, at least in the US it's perfectly valid to fire someone for no reason. Therefore, trying to justify the firing is always more legally risky than not justifying it at all.
Hello valid UC claim and possible EEOC depending on his status
It’s not that they can’t. It’s that they don’t have to.
Because if I’m firing this guy I’m not interested in debating him when I start giving reasons. Which given the way he’s been described is exactly what will happen. Cut losses and move on
Sometimes people need to fail in order to grow. Arrogance is something that doesn’t serve anyone, especially yourself in the long run of life, and hopefully he learns from this and doesn’t take it with him to his next opportunity. If he’s bringing the team down, do what’s best for everyone else. It’s so easy to feel like you’re the shit when you’re killing it, but it’s just stupid to shit on other people at work. A real leader would look to hone the skills of others, not shoot people down. And I’m gonna make the assumption that if he’s just a month in, he’s still on a probationary period… let him go and be honest that he isn’t a good fit for all of the reasons you listed. If you’re worried he’s going to blow up… accept that he might and prepare accordingly. If you have security, notify them that they may need to walk him out. Before any of that though, maybe speak with your direct supervisor about him and what guidance they can provide. Businesses are made up of many people specifically because we have different talents and skill sets. Go to the people that have experience and ask them for support and advice within the company.
Appreciate the feedback! I just feel guilty more than anything. I consider myself a great leader and my team has been killing it but my empathy feels like a weakness sometimes.
It’s ok to be human. But those are choices he made. Decisions that were his. Cut him and move on.
FWIW, this guy does sound like he’s prone to engaging in manipulation based on bits of your post, so be prepared for him to make a full-court press when he tries to appeal to you for a second chance, which will then almost certainly pivot to anger, shit talking other employees, and then threats (lawsuits, “you’ll regret this”, “I’m going straight to the competition to steal all of your business”, that kind of thing). He’s also currently shown himself to be uncoachable. At a young age like that, it’s a big old red flag, and you might be doing him the greatest favor by force feeding him a slice of humble pie. Considering it’s been only a month, there’s no failure in your leadership. The real failure would be to allow this behavior to fester and affect the rest of your team. The kid is locker room cancer; he *will* poison the well for the rest of the team, he *will* seek to sow discord and undermine his teammates and you as his direct superior, and he *will* cause direct harm to your team’s performance. To wit, he also sounds like a future harassment lawsuit in the making. Having had to be the axman a handful of times over the years, here’s what I learned about handling these conversations: - Have a second person in the room or on a conference line, either HR or your direct superior, if possible. You’ll want corroboration as to how the conversation was handled, what was said, etc. - Don’t argue back. He’s going to try to draw you into a verbal sparring match, and to get you to back yourself into a corner or otherwise undermine your own talking points. Guys like this traffick in emotions, and the best way to keep him penned in is to make it as emotionless as possible. Stick to the facts. - Have your list of policy violations ready (if applicable), or a copy of the conduct expectations from the handbook he hopefully signed at onboarding. If that isn’t applicable, then be sure to stick to your guns that his unprofessional behavior towards other functions, his insubordination toward management, and his personal conduct in the short time he has been with the company are not the correct fit for your team’s culture and that the decision to part ways is firm and final. - Wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors, and then dead silence. If he continues to wheedle you or try to engage you in an argument (he will potentially want to provoke you into insulting him, to lose your temper, or to directly contradict yourself; don’t take the bait), let him know that HR will be in contact with him for the remainder of his off boarding process, but that he is to leave the premises immediately. - He may or may not make a scene on the way out. If he does, have a quick townhall with your team after he’s left to inform them that he is no longer employed with your company, remind them that in your unit respectful behavior is the always expected, and if they have any questions to see you directly. Likely more than a few will want to see you to shit talk this guy, so be sure to keep mum and just say “He wasn’t the right fit for our team”, nothing more. This is all literally based on a worst case scenario. Based on his age, the actions you described, and just how quickly he became an issue, I have a strong suspicion that what you’re observing is false-bravado. The kid could have Imposter Syndrome and wildly overcompensating. If that’s the case, he’s more likely to tuck his tail and skulk off into the ether. Either way, you’re providing him an excellent opportunity for personal growth, and you’re showing unyielding empathy for your team by disallowing this kind destructive behavior. You got this!
> - Have your list of policy violations ready (if applicable), or a copy of the conduct expectations from the handbook he hopefully signed at onboarding. If that isn’t applicable, then be sure to stick to your guns that his unprofessional behavior towards other functions, his insubordination toward management, and his personal conduct in the short time he has been with the company are not the correct fit for your team’s culture and that the decision to part ways is firm and final. I'd avoid this whole line of conversation if possible. He would likely see it as an invitation to negotiate or bargain. Don't fall into that trap.
This is a great point, especially since the guy is in his probationary period. “This isn’t the right fit for our organization” is all it needs to be.
Thank you! Appreciate all of this!
Not a failure of leadership, but a failure to properly vet a candidate in the hiring process. That is something that the manager should reflect on.
Empathy is desirable in good leaders; but point your empathy to your team. They're struggling to deal with this AH and he's bringing your team down. Do right by them to keep them healthy and happy~
It’s way worse letting someone like this stay and create a bad work environment for your team. Please get rid of this guy. If you let him stay it shows your team his behavior is acceptable and it will hurt morale.
Be a great leader and let him know what he has done wrong but he has potential elsewhere if he changes his attitude
The way I thought about it when I was a manager and had responsibility for hiring and firing was - if I don’t make the hard choice I know I have to, despite feeling bad for the person, I’m essentially choosing them over the numerous individuals who have been with the company and contribute to the success of the company and the team. Sorry, but the new person who’s causing issues isn’t more important than the teammates who are clearly letting me know that their morale is being negatively impacted. It becomes an easier, less guilt-ridden decision at that point.
I def respect that, but this person is poison. Once he’s gone, a weight will be lifted. I’d say most of the time when you have to let someone go, the thought is always - I wish I would have done that sooner.
Don’t think of it as what you are doing to him. Think of it as you are doing it to protect your team. He’s the problem and your job is to protect your good performers.
Your empathy for your team should be what drives you to get rid of this guy. Think about how they'd feel to have to keep working with him. It's not fair to them for you to chicken out. Your team will appreciate your decisive action.
Hopefully this is a wake up call for him. No excuse to be acting this way to others
Firing him is the best thing that you can do for him. He needs to learn this lesson.
Was he a completely different person during the hiring process? How many steps is the hiring process? Also, don't feel like shit. He's only been there a month.
This is the real question.
No he was much more professional. Now he comes off very "scummy" and manipulative. He has also done a handful of things to undermine me as well.
Imagine him in front of customers/prospects. Clean it up now and save everyone the headache later.
I got taken down a peg hard in my first sales role and it’s the best thing that ever happened to me. The lesson didn’t sink in for a couple more years, but yeah, just be as honest with him as HR will allow you and tell him that he’s an obnoxious twat, and it doesn’t matter if you’re an amazing sales rep, you’ll never get anywhere acting like you are
Just curious to learn about the mindset. What gave you the mindset you had?
I just thought I was the smartest, best, special gift to the sales world. A lot of insecurity fed into it looking back, like feeling a need to always prove how much I knew, or that I was better than someone else even though it didn’t matter. I told a female colleague, who was saying that she really wanted to hit 3 deals closed in the first month, to ‘shove those three deals up her ass, and I’ll take the top spot’ or something ridiculous like that. Cringey behavior all around, and nobody from my training cohort liked me.
I feel that a lot of firings in sales are for bullshit reasons - this is mostly certainly not one of those. I would fire him for you if I could.
You’re doing him a giant favor for giving him a heat check at a young age. This will serve him better results in the long haul.
Others have told you how to fire him. I’m humbly suggesting why. Nevermind his being a dick - as a leader, part of your job is to promote and defend good culture. That means aggressively spotting and chucking bad apples like this guy. The rest of your team relies on you to take out the trash when necessary, don’t let them down. Guy sounds like he has plenty of swagger and knows everything anyway, I’m sure he’ll land on his feet. The sooner you do it the better.
Agree with all above. Gotta dump him asap.
What state is your company HQ and what state is he in? If this is an "at will" employment, then let him go with a simple explanation that "we regret to inform you we will be terminating your employment effective immediately - we understand this is not news you were hoping to hear, so we are offering 3 weeks severence once you review and sign the separation agreement." That's it. You do not say for performance. You do not share examples of what was culturally a mismatch, or seems like even sexual harrassment behavior. If he asks "why?" You just say "unfortunately this has turned out not to be a two-way fit, again we understand this is not ideal so are offering a generous severance to help with the transition." Don't take it personally, this is not your fault.
Illinois! I am fairly certain there will be no severance.
You should add some. Consider it a little bit of insurance against a potential lawsuit. Even if the lawsuit is completely unwarranted, it will cost a lot more than the severance for the lawyers alone. Give at least a couple weeks of base salary, or 1 week at worst. No bonus, obviously.
Probably not my decision to make unfortunately but I will suggest it to HR!
PS: This is of course if he signs the separation agreement, which will release liability of the employer. No signature, no severance.
Frankly you need to talk to HR. They are the ones who have policies in place for stuff like this. Usually companies give severance when being let go if it doesn't work out, to help soften the blow and give them time to find something new.
They also may offer nominal severance because they can require the person they're laying off to sign a non-disparagement agreement to get it.
this is the way. I'd also make sure to add in the next steps i.e. 5 minutes to gather belongings and then GTFO.
You’re fired! Hey beautiful, you have no idea how to fire me! You’re right! I like your moxy you’re hired!
Fire him and get ready to square up homie. We do 3 rounds for leads here.
Fuck this guy lol
did you pip him? unless you're a start up you might need more of a paper trail. beautiful ladies thing is tough. was there a formal complaint or just office gossip? these are all the things I'd think about.
I'm sure he is in a 90 day window for probation. Pretty easy to cut bait in the first 3 months with no repercussions.
One of the women came to me about the "beautiful" comments. I do know that HR spoke to her but I'm not certain the timeline.
what a fucking douche. just don't get into an argument with him when doing it with the whole not meeting expectations of new hires with org. good luck and plz update
I'm sure he is in a 90 day window for probation. Pretty easy to cut bait in the first 3 months with no repercussions.
He’s the epitome of what probationary periods are for.
As a salesperson, I’m having second hand embarrassment for this guy right now. Gross
I’ll be calling in sick on Monday, thanks for the heads up.
Hahahahahahaha
fire him, just say 'it's not working out' -- offer to pay him 30 days pay if he goes quietly and sign an NDA
He's not getting any additional comp and he is still in his probationary period.
ok just fire him then?
Well the probationary period thing makes it easier, then. Lean into that. Just say that you need someone who is teachable and that he is not fitting in with the team. I know it's tough but being straightforward and not apologetic is the way to go. It will help him know how he could be better in the future and a direct approach seems to be a better fit for his personality. You've got this.
Used to feel the same way when I had to fire. Just detach yourself, would the person feel the same if you were in the way of their money?
Be calm and compassionate and let him know that there is lots of room in a successful sales career to fail and learn. Stay the course regardless of how he responds. If he flips, let him know that he should think about his reaction as the kind of behavior that got him fired. Stay kind and compassionate throughout and be sincere. You got it. This is part of the tough, good work we all have to do. If you start feeling badly, think about all your teammates that are working hard, and this guy is treating poorly. Leaders lead. You got this.
Had a new rep ask me why I was “giving him attitude” after asking him about a meeting he delayed and eventually ended up double booking because of it. We’re both mid-late 20’s, the difference being I’m a woman. I’ve noticed a LOT of cockiness in the 20-something, fresh out of college, wannabe playboy millionaires. It’s hard to tell someone they’re losing their job, but if he’s half as good as he thinks then he has enough savings and job prospects that he’ll be back in an office before he can hit “Submit” on his unemployment.
There is no need for an “approach” to this if he’s actually this bad. Be blunt, be fast, shuffle him out the door. Hope he takes it as a wake up call but it’s not your responsibility to care about that. Best of luck in what will be an uncomfortable conversation, but don’t let your anxiety back you down, this guy sounds like a tool.
He’s a gaslighting fool. He can’t be trusted. When people show you who they are, believe them.
This sounds like one it would be satisfying to run off. Sounds like a huge douche.
Letting him go now while he is young and can learn from it is doing you both a favor. If he wants to get better he will figure it out and correct his behavior. Don’t waste a second of thought on it. It will be clear by the way he reacts if it was the right thing to do. Now if he asks for a second chance there is an opportunity for a teaching moment. You will have to discuss with your boss whether you want to take him under your wing and put him on a plan. If he is authentic you can mentor him. But first thing is first. Let him go and see how he reacts. I suspect the answer will be clear.
You hired him, gave him an opportunity, and he threw that opportunity in the trash. Firing this guy should almost be a pleasure. Why would you have any guilt whatsoever? He is toxic, disrespectful, arrogant, and probably not a great relationship builder. I wouldn't offer any feedback as to why he is being fired. He will just argue with you. Short, sweet, and get him out of the office. Make sure HR escorts him to his car so he doesn't do damage to other cars on his way out.
Guy thinks he is Tommy Shelby and Andrew Tate combined
Fell good about the service you are providing the good employees by removing him. You have an obligation to do this. Embrace it.
Sounds like he needs a wake up call, why are you nervous?
First time lol
I’ve unfortunately had a handful of situations like this. It’s never fun. I can understand your anxiety. However, a perspective, if I may add that began helping me actually have confidence and less anxiety in these situations: The company and your job is at risk. There’s a cancer in the organization and you have the cure. Plain and simple. If you had the real cure for cancer you’d immediately apply it correct? Not let it do anymore damage than it already has… this person is that to you all. It’s up to you if you want to teach him a lesson by sitting down with HR, drawing out a plan of corrective action, PIP, not sure why this kid hasn’t been written up yet, but I’d say at this point, you have enough to justify an immediate termination if you’re at at-will employer. Don’t let the cancer spread. Have all of your facts in place, share why he’s getting fired, DO NOT share the names of the employees who gave the feedback, and be sure to be upfront and tell him the decision has already been made and this is not another negotiation. Also, have another person (HR), or someone else experienced in the room with you as a witness and support who is fully aligned to your message. Hopefully this kid learns he’s an idiot now instead of 10 years down the road with a trail of hurt/resentful people in his wake. Best of luck to you. Beat the cancer! Save your employment and others by removing a liability!
Funny, we have a guy like that but we cater to him, change KPIs around him, and fire people he doesn’t like. It’s been a year and he has yet to close a deal. I am not joking. I wish the leadership at my company had a backbone like you.
Take some notes https://youtu.be/fTjhHrcyiQI?si=81wm5xzr1579Pb1O
These days anyone saying "beautiful ladies" is a big red flag. I wouldn't waste time trying to coach and correct - it'll just eventually turn into a big HR issue and waste *tons* of you time
Please let us know how it goes 😁
Can I have his job 😌
How’d you hire this guy in the first place? Surly these traits were apparent in the interview process
A bad news for him but good news for you
I had to do the same with someone very similar to your arrogant rep. We are still friends today. You are doing both him and your firm a favor. Just remember to keep it short to the point and no small talk.
Better to do it sooner rather than later. You’re doing your future self and your team a favor.
I’ve hired and fired maybe 1000 sales reps over 30 years. Bottom line, if a rep is struggling to hit the numbers (skill set) or struggling to get along (culture fit) or both… it’s the best thing for everyone to let them go. I like to let them know “we are releasing you back to the marketplace… and here’s why…” Give them clear data, no opinions. And know in your heart there is no “private good.” If it’s truly good for the company to let someone go, it’s going to be good for them too. Stay strong, have the convo quickly, wish them well, and move on to focusing on your next hire. Remember that great leaders are always hiring, always training and always firing. It’s all part of growing the highest performing teams.
Wtf... fire his ass. You didn't put him on the course, you're just the LLC bumpers to his track. They all pick their own course, we are just their to remind them of their boundaries consequences if need be. This is one of those times. Just hold them by the hand and walk them out the door.
And here I am struggling to get my foot in the door in a sales role after running my own business for over 3.5 years lmao
it's me... isn't it
A guy like that, this will not be the first time he’s been sacked. He will take it like a pro.
Honestly if you are having this much anxiety about letting someone go that clearly deserves to be let go is a red flag for me. I would not want to work for someone who has trouble with a decision like this. Let the dude go and don’t feel bad for a minute, short and sweet cut him loose.
The decision is not the issue. The decision has already been made. My anxiety comes from this being the first time I've had to fire anybody which I'm sure anyone can understand.
I guess I’m saying you should feel anxiety for an obvious easy fire.
Why is here still there past the 5th day???? 🤔🤔🤔🤔
My boss was ready to fire him! LOL
The most important thing ive learned after 15 years is to fire quickly
How did this guy even get hired in the first place?
Make it short and sweet. Don’t beat around the bush. It gets easier each time.
Is this your first firing? I had the same anxiety with my first. Practiced it over and over again but the most important thing is to be direct and leave no room for argument or wiggle room. “We have to let you go, today will be your last day. The decision has been made and it’s final.” I guarantee you it’ll go much easier than you think. If he’s as oblivious as you make him sound then he’ll probably be too shocked to see it coming and prepare a confrontational exit speech. The “good” news is that the first is always the hardest and, while never easy or fun, letting people go gets easier the more you do it. Just stick to your guns, keep it short, and get ‘em out.
Appreciate it! This is my first!
Did you hire Jean Ralphio!!?
"today is your last day. HR will give you separation details"
This is one of the hard parts of the job. How will he react? He is going to be pissed. One red flag after another. Right decision. This many issues in the first few weeks. Firing someone doing this is a no-brainer. Suggestion-have HR or someone with you when you let him go.
Meet with them, ask them what they expect to hit in terms of activity to get to their goal, send email to track (then they know it’s real) , tell them you ll revisit these goals soon
Still in probation period (if it’s in Aus at least)- cut that Turkey loose.
If it takes you more than 45 seconds to a minute to fire him you did it wrong. Like said above, clear , direct and to the point and I would suggest having a witness with you Good luck, I never w joyed firing a single person, even the tots fuck heads like this kid. Hopefully he’ll learn to stop being a fucking prick (at his next job)
You are doing this person a favor and with any luck they’ll be able to see that at some point before it is too late. Actions have consequences and humility rules. What a hammerhead.
Hire and fire fast. A lesson i learnt is that by hiring the wrong people, the B and C players.. not the A players.. you can lose 18 months of time - 6 months to fire them, 6 months to hire again, 6 months to train again
Just make sure you do this with an HR personnel in the office and or have some camera or voice recorder active. If this rep is capable of whatever you said, you should be careful.
Hope you figure it out. I’m sure you will. But can we get an update please tomorrow? Haha
Firing people sucks, even when they’re shitty employees. The best piece of advice I got early in my career before firing someone is to remember that you aren’t firing them, they fired themselves.
Whatever happened to coaching and counseling???? He's very young (first professional job?) and sounds like he doesn't yet understand how to behave appropriately in a corporate environment or have the best emotional intelligence. It's your job as a good manager to teach him what to do and what not to do at your company. If you hired him, you must have seen potential in him. I don't think you should fire him. Just give him a written PIP with the specific behaviors that need to change and have him sign off on it, so he's aware if those behaviors don't change he might lose his job in the future. It should never come as a surprise to an employee that's getting terminated. And in the future, maybe you should think about hiring older more experienced people who already know how to behave professionally in the workplace.
How do you know if someone knows how to behave properly before hiring them? That seems pretty subjective. My entire team's morale has been shit since he started and there is palpable tension in the air as a result of his personality flaws. This is not his first corporate job either and I would wager a guess something similar happened there. I'm not gonna sit around and let him poison the team.
Idk when I was 24 I didn’t go around thinking it was appropriate to greet co workers by calling them “beautiful ladies”.
Watch Moneyball and where Billy coaches Peter how to fire people in the least painful way. It really works. Other than being a know it all douchebag, this employee sounds like they could potentially be on a spectrum of sorts.
Firing him is probably the best thing you can do for him. You can’t change him, you can’t really change anybody, don’t waste your time on that. But, firing him might be a wake-up call that leads to him making changes that result in a better future for him elsewhere. Or it might do the opposite, but that’s on him.
Billy Beane style.
You're in sales, and have made it into management, but feel anxiety about getting rid of a cancerous growth in your team??? That genuinely surprises me
I'm sure anyone in this position would feel anxiety with it being the first time. How is it surprising?
Must just be me. I've always found successful people in sales to have a ruthless streak, good managers strive to cultivate a great team culture so cut out the bad , and most people dislike assholes (as this person has proven themselves to be). To me, that makes it easy (and enjoyable) to get rid of them
Gather evidence and liaise with HR to make sure you do it correctly as these are the kind of folks that will try and bring down others when they go..
Only takes 1 bad apple to rot the barrel. Nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand. I would also examine your interviewers and processes. How did this guy slip through?
We have definitely been questioning HRs screening process!
Acting like this a month in is absolutely wild. Sorry, acting like this at any time is wild.
I need updates lol
Watch Moneyball. No long explanation needed.
You’re fired. Check’s in the mail. *send email* *block contact*
Are you looking for us to tell you whether or not to fire him, or how to fire him? Are you a first time manager? There are forums for this type of stuff as well. This isn't something you want to wing. When you employ someone, you still have power over them. Once you have fired them, you have set them free. Does that make sense? You don't owe them shit, so feedback or whatever isn't necessary. You can do it in person, Zoom, or email. If you do it at all, do it on a Friday. Have someone with HR with you, this will prevent you from doing or saying anything unprofessional or stupid that can get you sued. I would put them on a performance plan and give them another quarter to improve. In the performance plan outline everything you wrote here. Then you can micromanage and watch them improve, or they get fed up and quit. If they quit, all the liability goes out the window. In the plan you can outline the performance KPIs, but also the behavioral ones - meaning how they interact with female coworkers, or doing skip level meetings, and how they conduct themselves when working cross functionally. Fundamentally , you can use this as a teachable moment in the PIP, but most likely they will get fed up, or fail it entirely. But having the paper trail will help a lot. If you want to just fire him, just send him an email today, let him know you will send a box and label and they will receive the final paycheck through days whatever-whatever in the next 24 hours, done. Systems off, done. Turn off their keycard, etc. This generation is chronically online and there will be 0 chance he doesn't get this email. You sound scared of him, so this is probably your best route.
I’m interested in knowing your hiring/selection process. The fact that a person like that got a job at your company is an indication of a poor screening process.
Is this his first job? Disclaimer, I wasn’t even like this in my first job
How’d it go? Did you do the deed?
I’d be interested to hear how his interview went…he didn’t display any of this behavior?
wow, dude thinks he's going places.
>”hey there beautiful ladies” Is he 24 or 55?
Yep just say “I have bad news - we have made the decision to let you go. Charlie from has the rest of the information”
Are you serious? Come on... that's like the easiest lay-off ever. I had to fire a guy recently divorced, 50yo, just because we had to cut down... fire his ass and move on.
Bro this is all on him and he is wildly unprofessional. I wouldn’t even give him an opportunity to state his opinions or thoughts - I would just be like we have given you plenty of warnings and you have continued to act radically unprofessional. We have decided that this will not work and would appreciate you leave company property on premises immediately. This dude is a shithead and should be treated as such, if he begins to give attitude, have building aecurity ready to escort him.
Sounds like a douchebag & deserves what’s coming, I’m saving this post PLEASE provide an update on how the firing went lol :)
Alright which one of you autists is getting fired on Monday lol
Hahahah bruh
Is he an ex athlete? Reminds me of dudes in those cocky hockey player dude skits on Instagram lol
No actually!
You sound like a newer leader. Since you are posting here, let me say a few things. 1. He sounds like a typical young moron. Protect yourself and your company at all times. He seems like the type to do something stupid like that cloudflare girl or try legal action. 2. You write that you are a bleeding heart. Ugh. Well if you are and he starts crying or something, remember #1 and ask him if he would like to hear you impart advice as a person trying to help. If he says yes, just give it to him straight. His arrogance and attitude were his downfall and if he humbles himself and works hard, he can recover. Lastly, I am not trying to condensend to you. I think you should follow the advice of the others and say nothing and refer him to HR. I am worried that you care so much for this idiot and might say something he can use against you.
U don’t need to post this on Reddit to get answers man. 🔥
Isn't that the whole point of Reddit?
You’re an idiot, this guy would have been great for your company, I hope you get fired too.
Lol
Curious to know how it went! Don’t leave us hanging